The San Antonio Dilemma

[AC#21_TD ERA]

The competition gets significantly better every year and so far this off season the Spurs haven't done enough to keep up with the competition. They stuck to their old stubborn ways of surrounding the big 3 with role players. Sure it got us 4 rings and it was great but at some stage you got to have a plan B.

When signing Roger Mason a guy that gave you 9ppg and expecting him to help your offensive droughts you got to be kidding yourself.:lmao:lmao Especially when Manu will be playing with a walking stick towards the end of the season.

Resigning the aging Kurt Thomas wasn’t a bad idea but he is 36. How much does he have left in him? If he gets injured then along comes the dud I can’t get a rebound Oberto who might start what a fuking joke. If that fails along comes Mahinimi who should go back and play volleyball.

Geoge Hill should stick to keep building houses. That opens the door to The Garbage Truck Vaughn:bang:bang, who is just fukin pathetic. Peter Holt will do a better job than him.

Michael Finley, who has been great for us but it was time to move on. He's done. The workers at the At&T center should put the wheel chair ramps up for him when he enters the building.

The Big 3 can only get us so far and I see us finishing 6th and getting knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round.

NOH or HOUSTON to take out the West.

THE RIDE IS OVER WE'RE DONE, BUT WHAT A JOURNEY IT WAS! :lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

[Admiral]

As we discussed in the DRob vs. Tim debate, there was a time when we didn't have a "big 3." The fact that we have 3 bona fide all-stars on our roster at the same time is amazing. That is a great nucleus that only requires role players to fill in the gaps.

We don't need any major trades, guys.

[NewJerSpur]

The team should've traded for Brett Favre when it had the chance.

[Tully365]

Oberto is actually a very good rebounder. Here are some comparisons for rebounds per 48 minutes from nba.com:


18.0 Camby
18.0 Dwight Howard
16 Duncan
15.4 Kurt Thomas
14 Yao Ming
13.5 Garnett
12.6 Oberto
12.5 Scola
12.2 Villanueva
12 Chris Wilcox
11.9 Kendrick Perkins
11.8 Haslem
11.5 Bosh
11.4 Nowitzki
11.3 Pau Gasol
11.3 David West
11.2 Okur
11 Nesterovic
10.7 Brandon Bass
10.6 Glen Davis
10.5 Rasheed Wallace

[exstatic]

[bookmarking this for June]

[Kori Ellis]

They stuck to their old stubborn ways of surrounding the big 3 with role players. Sure it got us 4 rings and it was great but at some stage you got to have a plan B.

So, you wanted their plan B to be what?

Trade one of the big 3?

Because that's the only other alternative. You either build around your stars with role players or trade your stars. There's nothing else to do when there's a salary cap.

[STalker]

i think we got a little better, but significant changes for the next season (2010) will be coming.

[completely deck]

Oberto is actually a very good rebounder. Here are some comparisons for rebounds per 48 minutes from nba.com:


18.0 Camby
18.0 Dwight Howard
16 Duncan
15.4 Kurt Thomas
14 Yao Ming
13.5 Garnett
12.6 Oberto
12.5 Scola
12.2 Villanueva
12 Chris Wilcox
11.9 Kendrick Perkins
11.8 Haslem
11.5 Bosh
11.4 Nowitzki
11.3 Pau Gasol
11.3 David West
11.2 Okur
11 Nesterovic
10.7 Brandon Bass
10.6 Glen Davis
10.5 Rasheed Wallace

I don't agree with this thread at all, but the people below Oberto do things other than rebound. For example, Bosh gets points, Nowitzki gets points, West gets points, Okur gets points, et al.

Get it?

[Kori Ellis]

Oh and just FYI Ian never played volleyball. That was a mistake by ESPN on draft night. They were reading off someone else's bio accidentally ... I think Splitter's ironically.

[anakha]

The OP is giving up on the Spurs' chances because they didn't:

1) Get JR Smith or Ricky Davis in free agency.
2) Trade Manu Ginobili, Roger Mason and Jacque Vaughn for Carmelo Anthony.

Right. :rolleyes

[Tully365]

I don't agree with this thread at all, but the people below Oberto do things other than rebound. For example, Bosh gets points, Nowitzki gets points, West gets points, Okur gets points, et al.

Get it?

That's very true. I'm not saying Oberto is an all-star or anything other than a role player, but to say he's a terrible rebounder is just not true.

That's why I started the paragraph off with Oberto is actually a very good rebounder rather than Oberto is a big time scorer and all around unstoppable machine.

Get it?

[Brutalis]

Oh and just FYI Ian never played volleyball. That was a mistake by ESPN on draft night. They were reading off someone else's bio accidentally ... I think Splitter's ironically.

Oh the tension, the terror.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I can't believe I'm about to break this all down.

The competition gets significantly better every year and so far this off season the Spurs haven't done enough to keep up with the competition. They stuck to their old stubborn ways of surrounding the big 3 with role players. Sure it got us 4 rings and it was great but at some stage you got to have a plan B.
There were no options for the Spurs. You all wanted them to go out and go after the real free agents, and they did. They went after Maggette, Najera, and Pargo, 3 great players that could've helped us greatly. Unfortunately they all went with the money. At that point, what can you do? What kind of 'Plan B' can you have that enables you to still acquire those guys?

When signing Roger Mason a guy that gave you 9ppg and expecting him to help your offensive droughts you got to be kidding yourself.:lmao:lmao Especially when Manu will be playing with a walking stick towards the end of the season.
9 points a game can end an offensive drought. What the fuck is so wrong with that? I'm sure they're sorry they couldn't go out and get the 20/10/5 guy.

Resigning the aging Kurt Thomas wasn’t a bad idea but he is 36. How much does he have left in him? If he gets injured then along comes the dud I can’t get a rebound Oberto who might start what a fuking joke. If that fails along comes Mahinimi who should go back and play volleyball.
You're basically saying we don't have 3rd string players that have starting potential. :lmao 'Oh what happens when our starter goes down? Our backup isn't as good as him. Oh what happens when our backup goes down? Our 3rd stringer isn't the best player in the world. Oh, we're fucked now.' :lmao

Geoge Hill should stick to keep building houses. That opens the door to The Garbage Truck Vaughn:bang:bang, who is just fukin pathetic. Peter Holt will do a better job than him.
Oh noes! A rookie that's in need of development! What are we gonna do? Why can't he immediately come in and average 15/5 like an allstar point guard? And what do we do now? He have one of the best insurance guards in the league! But of course, insurance isn't enough!

Michael Finley, who has been great for us but it was time to move on. He's done. The workers at the At&T center should put the wheel chair ramps up for him when he enters the building..
Que Mason and Udoka's larger role. Well that wasn't so hard, was it?

The Big 3 can only get us so far and I see us finishing 6th and getting knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round.

NOH or HOUSTON to take out the West.
Alrighty then.

THE RIDE IS OVER WE'RE DONE, BUT WHAT A JOURNEY IT WAS! :lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:
Ah yes it was. Now you can spare us of further assinine comments.

[Mister Sinister]

The competition gets significantly better every year and so far this off season the Spurs haven't done enough to keep up with the competition. They stuck to their old stubborn ways of surrounding the big 3 with role players. Sure it got us 4 rings and it was great but at some stage you got to have a plan B.

When signing Roger Mason a guy that gave you 9ppg and expecting him to help your offensive droughts you got to be kidding yourself.:lmao:lmao Especially when Manu will be playing with a walking stick towards the end of the season.

Resigning the aging Kurt Thomas wasn’t a bad idea but he is 36. How much does he have left in him? If he gets injured then along comes the dud I can’t get a rebound Oberto who might start what a fuking joke. If that fails along comes Mahinimi who should go back and play volleyball.

Geoge Hill should stick to keep building houses. That opens the door to The Garbage Truck Vaughn:bang:bang, who is just fukin pathetic. Peter Holt will do a better job than him.

Michael Finley, who has been great for us but it was time to move on. He's done. The workers at the At&T center should put the wheel chair ramps up for him when he enters the building.

The Big 3 can only get us so far and I see us finishing 6th and getting knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round.

NOH or HOUSTON to take out the West.

THE RIDE IS OVER WE'RE DONE, BUT WHAT A JOURNEY IT WAS! :lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

Aaaaaaallll aboard!!! Aaaaaalll aboard the failboat, Captain AC#21_TD ERA will be your captain today!

[FromWayDowntown]

Since the post doesn't really mention a dilemma, I assume the dilemma is whether the OP continues to ride the Spurs bandwagon or chooses another -- and if so, which one?

[dbestpro]

There has been alot of chicken littles running around here. Now let's look at the truth.

Point: Popovich is still one of the best coaches in the league.
Point: Ducan is still one of the best PF/C in the league.
Point: Parker is on the top point guards in the league.
Point: We have the deepest SG positon in the NBA Finely, Ginobili, Mason
Point: Our SF postion has some of the best SF defenders in the league.
Point: Our center postion is playoff tested with smart players
Point: Anything Mahinmi or Hill gives you is just a bonus.
Point: This is one of the best defensive teams in the NBA.
Point: Spurs will be right at the top again this year.

Yes, the sky may fall, but not today and not this year.

[FromWayDowntown]

I anxiously await the first opportunity to use the chicken little emoticon.

[ALAMO_DEFENSE]

There has been alot of chicken littles running around here. Now let's look at the truth.

Point: Popovich is still one of the best coaches in the league.
Point: Ducan is still one of the best PF/C in the league.
Point: Parker is on the top point guards in the league.
Point: We have the deepest SG positon in the NBA Finely, Ginobili, Mason
Point: Our SF postion has some of the best SF defenders in the league.
Point: Our center postion is playoff tested with smart players
Point: Anything Mahinmi or Hill gives you is just a bonus.
Point: This is one of the best defensive teams in the NBA.
Point: Spurs will be right at the top again this year.

Yes, the sky may fall, but not today and not this year.

This is my version:

Point: Popovich is the best defensive-oriented choach in the league; & one of the best all-around
Point: TIM is the BEST PF ever played the game, and the SMARTER right now
Point: Parker is the fastest player in the league; one of the best PG
Point: We have the best competitor, explosive and reliable SG: Manu
Point: In our SF positions, we have the best perimeter defender in the NBA
Point: Our center position is already tested, smart, and helpful
Point: Mahinmi & Hill will help a lot, especially Ian
Point: This is one of the best defensive team, and the smartest
Point: Spurs will get AT LEAST 2 more RINGS before Duncan retires.

NUFF SAID :toast

[Big P]

2010

[Solid D]

The Big 3 can only get us so far and I see us finishing 6th and getting knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round.

NOH or HOUSTON to take out the West.

THE RIDE IS OVER WE'RE DONE


http://www.geocities.com/mjloundy/chick1.jpg

And another one jumps off the bandwagon...with all the impact of removing your finger from the ocean.

[raspsa]

What the Spurs really need is for the Big 3 to be fresh enough to play 4th quarters well, particularly in the playoffs.. if the new additions plus the returning vets can take some of the Big 3's minutes and hold the fort then the Spurs will be competitive.

[your_pimp]

[bookmarking this for June]for June?

you mean when you are in Cancun fishing?

Dumb ass!

[your_pimp]

2010 Duncan will be what 34?

Dream on bitch!

[ss1986v2]

Duncan will be what 34?

Dream on bitch!
how old is nash again?

your game is slipping louis, its time to try a new handle. maybe a portland fan this time.

[rj215]

how old is nash again?

your game is slipping louis, its time to try a new handle. maybe a portland fan this time.

:lol

[Solid D]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/WORLD/weather/08/17/fay/t1home.cars.fay.ap.jpg

Spurs fans leave town following the Ron Artest trade and Mike Finley signing.

[ElNono]

And the dilemma is?

[your_pimp]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/WORLD/weather/08/17/fay/t1home.cars.fay.ap.jpg

Spurs fans leave town following the Ron Artest trade and Mike Finley signing.
Might as well....

[Mister Sinister]

Might as well....
Looks like someone else wants to captain the Failboat.

[kobyz]

So, you wanted their plan B to be what?

Trade one of the big 3?

Because that's the only other alternative. You either build around your stars with role players or trade your stars. There's nothing else to do when there's a salary cap.

why Houston traded one of thir stars to get Artest? our FO made alot of mistakes in the past 2 years, in fact in the past 2 years our FO is one of the worst in the NBA and it's have to be said!!!!

[Mister Sinister]

why Houston traded one of thir stars to get Artest? our FO made alot of mistakes in the past 2 years, in fact in the past 2 years our FO is one of the worst in the NBA and it's have to be said!!!!
Um. No.

[Dalamar_the_Dark]

I don't agree with this thread at all, but the people below Oberto do things other than rebound. For example, Bosh gets points, Nowitzki gets points, West gets points, Okur gets points, et al.

Get it?

And Yao Ming gets injured.

[AC#21_TD ERA]

So, you wanted their plan B to be what?

Trade one of the big 3?
Because that's the only other alternative. You either build around your stars with role players or trade your stars.

There's nothing else to do when there's a salary cap.

Plan B is to take a fukin risk. Were too cautious. We should of made a run at the Ron Ron. Houston got him for garbage in return.

With the big 3 i would only trade Manu but only if the right deal came along, for exa, Ginobili, Mason, Fuk head Vaughn for Carmelo.

With the cap issue: Have you heard of going over the cap if it could bring a title, look at Boston. I know were over the cap already but that doesnt mean we still cant spend but unfortunatley we have a tight ass owner that wants to save his money for his fat gut.

IT'S SIMPLE WE PLAYED IT SAFE we didnt get a guy that can help the big 3 on the offensive end. We also didn't get that younger, JV,Finley, Kurt are all back we only lost Barry, Horry, and Damon. :lmao:lmao:lmao

[AC#21_TD ERA]

And the dilemma is?

If your fukin smart enough you will figure it out. Im not even going to answer that stupid question.

[samikeyp]

If your fukin smart enough you will figure it out. Im not even going to answer that stupid question.

If you're going to call people out for disagreeing with you....at least be a man and say "fucking" :lol

So you are saying that the Spurs have absolutely no chance whatsoever?

[AC#21_TD ERA]

If you're going to call people out for disagreeing with you....at least be a man and say "fucking" :lol

So you are saying that the Spurs have absolutely no chance whatsoever?

With this currnet roster no chance in hell unless the West turns into the East but that's not going to happen. The Spurs team last season wasn't as good to the previous Spurs teams, they struugled to score, struggled on the road with 12 point qrts, too many players that were done etc. We didn't get significantly better. We got no chance against LA,NOH and now the reloaded Rockets. LIKE WHAT I SAID, THE BIG 3 AS GREAT AS THEY ARE THEY WILL ONLY GET YOU SO FAR THESE DAYS.

[samikeyp]

I would disagree, as long as 9, 20 and 21 are healthy, there is always a chance.

To each his own.

[AusSpursFan]

Oberto is actually a very good rebounder. Here are some comparisons for rebounds per 48 minutes from nba.com:


18.0 Camby
18.0 Dwight Howard
16 Duncan
15.4 Kurt Thomas
14 Yao Ming
13.5 Garnett
12.6 Oberto
12.5 Scola
12.2 Villanueva
12 Chris Wilcox
11.9 Kendrick Perkins
11.8 Haslem
11.5 Bosh
11.4 Nowitzki
11.3 Pau Gasol
11.3 David West
11.2 Okur
11 Nesterovic
10.7 Brandon Bass
10.6 Glen Davis
10.5 Rasheed Wallace


Oh please! I don't care what the stats say, a picture tells a thousand words. I don't agree with everything said, but the FO has just sat in the armchair and watched every team around them get better whilst we get older. I don't know whether this is the season that we head south, but it won't be too much longer before TD's minutes and hence production are reduced. They need another decent big to take some of the load, Thomas is a good backup, but he aint going to cut it. I just can't see enough in Mahinmi that he will be anything other than a bench player. So my question is, now that Tiago is a no show, what other contingency plans do we have in place for the future?

[DynastyBuilder]

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/usaidwhat/onoes.gif

[FromWayDowntown]

I guess I've just imagined this notion that the Spurs are well over the cap, but are reluctant to have to pay the luxury tax.

And I've obviously made up this memory of the Spurs reaching the West Finals and being a Ginobili injury away from winning Game 1 and probably Game 4 as well. I could certainly see how my fabrication of that run would give me a belief that the Spurs will be okay while the reality of it having never happened would make the more reasonable Spurs fans extremely concerned about whether the Spurs can maintain their string of 8 straight runs that go at least 2 rounds deep.

Finally, do we have undisputable proof that the Spurs didn't make an offer for Artest? I mean, it's not as if the Spurs have sat on their hands this summer and refused to do anything to change the face of their roster -- as noted above, they made runs (even if unsuccessful ones) at a number of players that the Chicken Little crowd around here has salivated over. There's a huge difference between trying and not succeeding and not trying at all. And it's completely wrong to say that the Spurs aren't trying.

[mrspurs]

What the Spurs really need is for the Big 3 to be fresh enough to play 4th quarters well, particularly in the playoffs.. if the new additions plus the returning vets can take some of the Big 3's minutes and hold the fort then the Spurs will be competitive.

100% agreed and might i add, roger better be ready to play tons of minutes at the 1 and 2. that should help tony and manu something neither one of our 1's and 2's did much of last season.(i dont expect jacque to all of a sudden develop a complete game since he has been around the league long enough already and never has yet). and with finley well we already know with him, its hit or miss no more no less. if roger is successful at the 2, it should help keep the pressure off finley.(at finleys age less pressure might help his shooting) if ian doesnt show up this up coming season then i see timmy having another frustrating season under the paint. all teams have scoring droughts, i watched alot of games last season via nba league pass.(im retired :king) what made the difference between teams like us and boston were, boston mades stops. they played great defense when their offense couldnt get anything going. we couldnt get stops under the paint. timmy had and to this point still has no help under the paint. if we dont make stops(and i heard player after player on our roster say it last season), then we best not have many scoring droughts. :wow

[ElNono]

If your fukin smart enough you will figure it out. Im not even going to answer that stupid question.

We already made our moves. Good or bad, they're there. We can't get Ron Ron anymore. There's actually no potentially good free agent out there still available. What's the dilemma?
Plus if you want to trade Ginobili + pieces for another wheel, then you'll end up with: Another version of the big 3 with the same old surrounding cast...
You're not very bright, are you?

And as FWD correctly pointed out, we did made a run for Magette, and you don't know we didn't make a run for Ron Ron. But at this point it's irrelevant. What's done is done, and if you don't like this team, feel free to jump off a cliff. You won't be missed.

[dbestpro]

I anxiously await the first opportunity to use the chicken little emoticon.

http://img1.jurko.net/chicken-little2.gif

[FromWayDowntown]

http://img1.jurko.net/chicken-little2.gif

Excellent.

[FromWayDowntown]

And as FWD correctly pointed out, we did made a run for Magette, and you don't know we didn't make a run for Ron Ron. But at this point it's irrelevant. What's done is done, and if you don't like this team, feel free to jump off a cliff. You won't be missed.

No! No! Nono. What we all should expect is that the Spurs can convince teams to give up great players for players who aren't in the Spurs rotation -- or that free agents should give up crazy money to take a whole lot less and come to San Antonio.

And really, what we should expect is desperate moves from the Spurs' front office; it's not as if they've really been competitive anytime recently -- and it's certainly not as if other teams in the West feel some need to take some pretty significant chances in the hope that they can catch up to the Spurs.

[rascal]

As we discussed in the DRob vs. Tim debate, there was a time when we didn't have a "big 3." The fact that we have 3 bona fide all-stars on our roster at the same time is amazing. That is a great nucleus that only requires role players to fill in the gaps.

We don't need any major trades, guys.


This type of thinking will lead you to disappointment. If other teams can add players better than role players, like the Rockets did with getting Artest for scraps then the spurs need to also try to make it happen and not settle for low level role players, like what they brought in this year.

manu is not an all star type of player. He got one gift all star appearance 3 years ago. He doesn't put up consistent all star quality numbers and doesn't play enough minutes as the true all stars do.

He is way over hyped in here. He cannot even log big minutes like the true all stars without breaking down. He is a 2nd level star, just under all star type of player.

We saw last year that over the hill role players won't get it done. The spurs needed more production from the bench and another player capable of providing an offensive impact but no one stepped up.

[FromWayDowntown]

manu is not an all star type of player. He got one gift all star appearance 3 years ago. He doesn't put up consistent all star quality numbers and doesn't play enough minutes as the true all stars do.

I'll take an All-NBA level player over an All-Star level player. By the way, is his All-Star appearance in 2005 a gift if he subsequently was named to an All-NBA team?

I'd argue, as well, that what Ginobili provides to the Spurs is not something that can be expressed in pure numbers. He's perhaps not statistically dominant or even statistically consistent, but he's absolutely consistent in the sense that he's the driving competitive force on this team and is correctly seen across the league as one of (if not the) most ferocious competitors going. Add All-NBA quality talent to that and you have the sort of player that championship quality teams must have to succeed.

I'd argue that the Spurs could never actually replace Ginobili's contributions on the court, even if they found a guy who puts up better numbers.

[rascal]

So, you wanted their plan B to be what?

Trade one of the big 3?

Because that's the only other alternative. You either build around your stars with role players or trade your stars. There's nothing else to do when there's a salary cap.


thats not always true. Every year teams get impact players for nothing more than expiring contracts and or draft picks.

The spurs never seem to be able to package anything together to work any of these type of deals out.

[Mister Sinister]

I guess I've just imagined this notion that the Spurs are well over the cap, but are reluctant to have to pay the luxury tax.

And I've obviously made up this memory of the Spurs reaching the West Finals and being a Ginobili injury away from winning Game 1 and probably Game 4 as well. I could certainly see how my fabrication of that run would give me a belief that the Spurs will be okay while the reality of it having never happened would make the more reasonable Spurs fans extremely concerned about whether the Spurs can maintain their string of 8 straight runs that go at least 2 rounds deep.

Finally, do we have undisputable proof that the Spurs didn't make an offer for Artest? I mean, it's not as if the Spurs have sat on their hands this summer and refused to do anything to change the face of their roster -- as noted above, they made runs (even if unsuccessful ones) at a number of players that the Chicken Little crowd around here has salivated over. There's a huge difference between trying and not succeeding and not trying at all. And it's completely wrong to say that the Spurs aren't trying.
Dude, I think we're having the same mental hallucinations and making up the same memories. What the hey?

[FromWayDowntown]

thats not always true. Every year teams get impact players for nothing more than expiring contracts and or draft picks.

The spurs never seem to be able to package anything together to work any of these type of deals out.

To do that, you generally have to have cap room -- the Clippers could acquire Camby for little because they were actually under the cap. That, or you have to have an expiring contract that has substantial value.

The Spurs aren't under the cap, so they can't make a "loads of crap for nothing" trade to take back a contract than is substantially larger than the value they send out. And the Spurs haven't been signing non-core players to contracts that would have the sort of value that it would take to get involved in deals like the Artest deal, for example -- the Spurs have 3 players making more than Bobby Jackson's $6.1 million per year (the obvious) and have no other player making more than $4 million with none of those being expiring contracts. You can't make deals with assets that you don't have.

[Admiral]

And another one jumps off the bandwagon...with all the impact of removing your finger from the ocean.

:rollin

[Admiral]

Plan B is to take a fukin risk. Were too cautious.

Our four (4) Larry O'Brien trophies in the last 10 years beg to differ...

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:

[rascal]

To do that, you generally have to have cap room -- the Clippers could acquire Camby for little because they were actually under the cap. That, or you have to have an expiring contract that has substantial value.

The Spurs aren't under the cap, so they can't make a "loads of crap for nothing" trade to take back a contract than is substantially larger than the value they send out. And the Spurs haven't been signing non-core players to contracts that would have the sort of value that it would take to get involved in deals like the Artest deal, for example -- the Spurs have 3 players making more than Bobby Jackson's $6.1 million per year (the obvious) and have no other player making more than $4 million with none of those being expiring contracts. You can't make deals with assets that you don't have.

Your talking about this year but its the same thing every year with the spurs. They never can make any impact deals because they are tied up so to speak with cap worries and undesirable role players.

The spurs haven't been able to make any of these type of moves in the 10 years since Pop took over. They have no creativity what so ever in making any type of trades where they package expiring contracts with future draft picks to get impact players at bargain cost. The lack of moves in improving the team will doom Duncan's final years.

Falling short like last year will be repeated year after year if the spurs decide that a core of the so called big 3 will be it and just surround them with over the hill types or bench player quality starters (Oberto or Thomas)or bench players from other teams as starters(Mason).

Manu and Bowen will begin to decline rapidly in the next couple of years and the spurs will be fighting an uphill battle this year, with the Lakers and Houston adding top impact players and young up and coming teams like the Blazers and Hornets getting better.

[FromWayDowntown]

Your talking about this year but its the same thing every year with the spurs. They never can make any impact deals because they are tied up so to speak with cap worries and undesirable role players.

so your solution would be to overpay some role players until their contracts are expiring and then use them to deal for a superstar? I see far more prudence in acquiring role players who come at realistic prices and fit within the club's salary structure. Of course, I'm also not here screaming for desperation moves, either.


The spurs haven't been able to make any of these type of moves in the 10 years since Pop took over. They have no creativity what so ever in making any type of trades where they package expiring contracts with future draft picks to get impact players at bargain cost. The lack of moves in improving the team will doom Duncan's final years.

That's not true at all -- of the top of my head, the deal that sent out Danny Ferry's expired deal to get both Ron Mercer and Hedo Turkoglu immediately comes to mind as the sort of deal that you seek. That deal didn't work out so well, personnel wise (although Turkoglu has certainly started to fulfill some of the promise that many had seen in him). But it's completely wrong to say that the Spurs haven't made any sort of creative deals in 10 years.


Falling short like last year will be repeated year after year if the spurs decide that a core of the so called big 3 will be it and just surround them with over the hill types or bench player quality starters (Oberto or Thomas)or bench players from other teams as starters(Mason).

Okay -- so again, the solution is to either deal one of the big 3 or to acquire overpaid role players and wait for their contracts to expire. Is either of those possibilities actually better than the tack the Spurs have taken. The current operations got the Spurs a title in 2007 and had them relatively close to another in 2008 -- to say nothing of having been quite close in 2006 after winning in 2005 with that recipe.


Manu and Bowen will begin to decline rapidly in the next couple of years and the spurs will be fighting an uphill battle this year, with the Lakers and Houston adding top impact players and young up and coming teams like the Blazers and Hornets getting better.

And at some point, not too many years from now, this is all going to end and the Spurs will have to start over. At least at that point, you can look forward to them having the opportunity to make all sorts of trades and things like that -- they should have plenty of cap room and all kinds of tradeable assets when the downtime comes.

[honestfool84]

what the hell is "fuking"?

[I. Hustle]

I read everything and all I can contribute is... Megan Fox is hot!

[Tully365]

Oh please! I don't care what the stats say, a picture tells a thousand words. I don't agree with everything said, but the FO has just sat in the armchair and watched every team around them get better whilst we get older. I don't know whether this is the season that we head south, but it won't be too much longer before TD's minutes and hence production are reduced. They need another decent big to take some of the load, Thomas is a good backup, but he aint going to cut it. I just can't see enough in Mahinmi that he will be anything other than a bench player. So my question is, now that Tiago is a no show, what other contingency plans do we have in place for the future?

No single way of analyzing performance is foolproof or perfect, but one strength of stats is that it takes the blatant bias, homerism, and subjectivity of fans out of the equation more than most approaches. You may not like Oberto personally, you may wish he was more of a leaper, you may wish he threw down monster dunks... but to say he is a terrible rebounder is just not true. He's a pretty good rebounder. Is he Bill Russell, Moses Malone, David Robinson? No. But he is a pretty good rebounder.

The Spurs had a great plan in place: bring in Splitter and Mahinmi. Splitter was lost through no fault of the FO, and now it's time to adjust. They re-signed Thomas, and signed Tolliver. We'll see how that works. The 90s Bulls were great with essentially 3 journeymen playing center. The Spurs will try two journeyman and a young all first team d-leaguer.

But you're wrong about the Spurs getting older. They've gotten younger. Their plan was a good one: work it out so that the contracts of 4 older players all run out in the same year-- Horry, Barry, Finley, and Thomas. Two of those guys are now gone and the other two signed for less money than they made last year. Mahinmi, Mason, Hill, and Tolliver are all younger, and last year's addition, Udoka, is 7 years younger than his mentor, Bruce Bowen.

Here's my perspective: If you want to say I'm frustrated that no big named free agents came to San Antonio, then I'm with you 100%. But if you're saying the FO sits around doing nothing and they suck, that's where I disagree. They're not perfect-- I disagree with the Scola trade, with letting Gist leave for Italy, and think they should've gotten more for Beno. But overall, I think their record is very good. They still have three true stars in their primes, a bunch of reasonably priced role players who understand the system, and a lot of payroll dollars available to place another star alongside Duncan in the very near future.

[anakha]

Oh noes!

We didn't get JR Smith!

We didn't get Ricky Davis!

We didn't trade for Carmelo Anthony!

We didn't trade for Ron Artest!

The Spurs are going to fukin suck this season!

[exstatic]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n230/gallenb123/NBA/Spurs-Suck.jpg
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2002, just to jog your memory. Spurs have had three in the interim.

[AC#21_TD ERA]

Our four (4) Larry O'Brien trophies in the last 10 years beg to differ...

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:

That’s in the past; just becuase its worked extremely well in past that doesnt mean its always going to be sucessful. The competition gets better every year, the game changes as well, the Spurs big 3 are alot older now aswell. So you can’t always continue to stay with the same philosophy.

We haven’t surrounded the big 3 with a solid supporting cast like we did in the past, in fact we just suplied them with garbage. Like what I said if we got another proven go to scorer or Artest we would of been fine, but signing Roger who? Mason and Finishedley and expecting them to be the solution on the wings you got to be kidding yourself. We wont be able to throw the ball into the ocean. THE SPURS FRONT OFFICE ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKING MORONS!

[anakha]

Hurray.

You finally got over your fear of the word 'fuck'. :lol

[your_pimp]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n230/gallenb123/NBA/Spurs-Suck.jpg
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Hahahah I love this pic:

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/2008/05/24/568cabca216de4daa5636147e1e42eeaget.jpg

[anakha]

Ah, I see Louis morphing into a Lakers troll this season.

[rascal]

That's not true at all -- of the top of my head, the deal that sent out Danny Ferry's expired deal to get both Ron Mercer and Hedo Turkoglu immediately comes to mind as the sort of deal that you seek. That deal didn't work out so well, personnel wise (although Turkoglu has certainly started to fulfill some of the promise that many had seen in him). But it's completely wrong to say that the Spurs haven't made any sort of creative deals in 10 years.





Turkoglu is not the type of player I am talking about. He was just another role player type of acquisition. Thats the best you can come up with in 10 years.

[ElNono]

That’s in the past; just becuase its worked extremely well in past that doesnt mean its always going to be sucessful. The competition gets better every year, the game changes as well, the Spurs big 3 are alot older now aswell. So you can’t always continue to stay with the same philosophy.

It worked for 4 championships. Including one before last season, and reaching the west finals last season. It's not like we haven't won or done well in recent years. Go ask Houston and Dallas what the last two years have been like.


We haven’t surrounded the big 3 with a solid supporting cast like we did in the past, in fact we just suplied them with garbage. Like what I said if we got another proven go to scorer or Artest we would of been fine, but signing Roger who? Mason and Finishedley and expecting them to be the solution on the wings you got to be kidding yourself. We wont be able to throw the ball into the ocean. THE SPURS FRONT OFFICE ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKING MORONS!

Who do we trade for Artest? Why would any team trade a scorer go to guy to the Spurs? What does the Spurs have that it's so valuable, that any team will be willing to part with one of their top players? I mean, if you include any of the big 3 from our team, then you'll end up where you started anyways, with another big 3, same old surrounding cast, with the exception that the new guy has to learn an entirely new system.

[FromWayDowntown]

Turkoglu is not the type of player I am talking about. He was just another role player type of acquisition. Thats the best you can come up with in 10 years.

So the Spurs should be able to take nothing and turn it into a star level player?

Seriously, without having overpaid role players on the roster or having ample cap space to deal out little more than picks and small contracts for bad players, the sorts of deals that you imagine aren't possible. I'd be curious for you to make a list of the sorts of deals that other teams have made that you think the Spurs could have or should have made.

[rascal]

Rasheed Wallace was sent from Atlanta to Det

It cost Det. L Hunter, C Atkins and a first round pick that was sent to Boston

Boston sent Sura Mills Rebraca and a 1'st to Atlanta

Thats a steal of a trade for the Pistons and helped them win a title. It did not take any high priced players, just a package of players and a draft pick.

A good agressive front office recognizes steals when they are available and works out a way to get it done.

This is the type of deal I am talking about. That the spurs never do because they are too conservative in taking any type of risk. R Wallace is better than any other front court player the spurs have brought in.

[Tully365]

Rasheed Wallace was sent from Atlanta to Det

It cost Det. L Hunter, C Atkins and a first round pick that was sent to Boston

Boston sent Sura Mills Rebraca and a 1'st to Atlanta

Thats a steal of a trade for the Pistons and helped them win a title. It did not take any high priced players, just a package of players and a draft pick.

A good agressive front office recognizes steals when they are available and works out a way to get it done.

This is the type of deal I am talking about. That the spurs never do because they are too conservative in taking any type of risk. R Wallace is better than any other front court player the spurs have brought in.

The Pistons and Boston each have one championship in the last ten years, so to say their front offices are outworking or out-thinking the FO of the Spurs doesn't ring true. Those two teams combined haven't matched the success of the Spurs in recent history. Plus, Boston was absolutely terrible for many years to the point where many Celtic fans were calling for Ainge to be fired. Would you prefer that approach? Sure, if you have lottery picks 3 or 4 years in a row there's a good chance that you'll assemble some young talent to develop or trade. Detroit is in roughly the same situation as San Antonio-- they have established veteran players who start and their draft position each year is in the 20s-- but their success the last two, five, or ten years cannot compare to the success of the Spurs.

[AC#21_TD ERA]

It worked for 4 championships. Including one before last season, and reaching the west finals last season. It's not like we haven't won or done well in recent years. Go ask Houston and Dallas what the last two years have been like.



Who do we trade for Artest? Why would any team trade a scorer go to guy to the Spurs? What does the Spurs have that it's so valuable, that any team will be willing to part with one of their top players? I mean, if you include any of the big 3 from our team, then you'll end up where you started anyways, with another big 3, same old surrounding cast, with the exception that the new guy has to learn an entirely new system.

To your first point, NO SHIT. I never said that it hasn't been sucessful. All i said you cant keep on supporting your big 3 with average role players and expecting it to be a sucess by taking no risks what so ever. In the past we had a decent supporting cast thats why it worked. But now if you have an average supporting cast you have no chance in hell. That's what we got.

Seriously look at it: Mason,Finley,Udoka,Oberto,Mahinimi,Hill,Bonner,Tol liver, JV, Which one of those players will fix our offensive droughts? If you can name one then you have the cure for cancer.

With the Ron Artest trade did you see who Houston gave up for Him? Ill tell ya garbage, we could of came up with something if we really wanted him. We could of thrown at them. JV, Oberto, Udoka etc , and cash. I think you get it by now. The Spurs never make a deal that is a steal.

The supporting cast we have around the big 3 now lets face it, is good enough to get us to the first 2 rounds. If we can't improve our roster during the season then the time has come to trade Manu.

[anakha]

http://img1.jurko.net/chicken-little2.gif

[AC#21_TD ERA]

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http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/movie/powerrangers/power_rangers_9.jpg

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao

[anakha]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao

What, still haven't gotten over JR smith and Ricky Davis crushing your dreams and hopes?

[ElNono]

To your first point, NO SHIT. I never said that it hasn't been sucessful. All i said you cant keep on supporting your big 3 with average role players and expecting it to be a sucess by taking no risks what so ever. In the past we had a decent supporting cast thats why it worked. But now if you have an average supporting cast you have no chance in hell. That's what we got.


That 'average' supporting cast won a championship a year ago.
It went all the way to the western conference finals months ago.
Reality doesn't agree with you.
That said, I believe the FO is always looking to get better, and they've tried. They went after Magette. They went after Pargo. The players decided to go somewhere else. Nothing you can do about that.



Seriously look at it: Mason,Finley,Udoka,Oberto,Mahinimi,Hill,Bonner,Tol liver, JV, Which one of those players will fix our offensive droughts? If you can name one then you have the cure for cancer.


You tell me which go to guy scorer we can get by trading any of those pieces? It's easy to say 'Let's get a go to guy'. But you need to be able to offer something the other team wants badly enough for them to make the trade. Again, you tell me: Who should the Spurs be pursuing that they didn't, that we could potentially get by trading those guys you mention above?



With the Ron Artest trade did you see who Houston gave up for Him? Ill tell ya garbage, we could of came up with something if we really wanted him. We could of thrown at them. JV, Oberto, Udoka etc , and cash. I think you get it by now. The Spurs never make a deal that is a steal.


You think if the Spurs could make a deal that is a steal they wouldn't do it?
It's not like Gasol was shopped around. Now, let say we do throw JV, Oberto and Udoka for Artest.
Our starting lineup: TP,Artest,Bowen,TD,Thomas...
Pros: Better defense through Artest.
Cons: Artest is a chucker. Does not know the system.
Now let's look at the second unit: Hill (rookie), Ginobili, Tolliver(rookie), Bonner, Mahinmi (rookie).
Pros: ????
Cons: If you don't see them, you must be blind.

So you just destroyed the surrounding cast around the big 3 in one trade. Exactly the opposite you were clamoring for. Unless you expect TP, TD and Bowen to play 48 minutes every game, I don't see how that deal would make us any better. I'll take JV over Hill, Udoka over Tolliver and Oberto over Bonner/Mahinmi every day of the week.



The supporting cast we have around the big 3 now lets face it, is good enough to get us to the first 2 rounds. If we can't improve our roster during the season then the time has come to trade Manu.

Last I checked it was good enough to take us to the western conference finals. And I would argue we were an injury away from having a competitive series against the Lakers.

So be a good boy, take your Xanax, and enjoy the first half of the season. If something needs to be tweaked, we can always do something mid-season.

[rascal]

what the hell is "fuking"?

Megan Fox needs to be in color.

[FromWayDowntown]

Rasheed Wallace was sent from Atlanta to Det

It cost Det. L Hunter, C Atkins and a first round pick that was sent to Boston

Boston sent Sura Mills Rebraca and a 1'st to Atlanta

Thats a steal of a trade for the Pistons and helped them win a title. It did not take any high priced players, just a package of players and a draft pick.

A good agressive front office recognizes steals when they are available and works out a way to get it done.

This is the type of deal I am talking about. That the spurs never do because they are too conservative in taking any type of risk. R Wallace is better than any other front court player the spurs have brought in.

I'm going to come back to this in this thread rather than in the poll thread.

I'm not sure how that deal is any different from the Artest deal that Houston made -- and, significant to the Spurs issues in making such a deal, how the Spurs are supposed to come up with $17 million worth of role player salaries without completely gutting their roster.

Houston could trade Bobby Jackson for Artest because Bobby Jackson is substantially overpaid at more than $6 million per year. Jackson also has value to the Kings because his big contract expires and will come off the books. Thus, to make a deal like that one, the Spurs would have to have: (1) a hugely-overpaid role player on their roster who, (2) had an expiring contract. I can't imagine that you're actually arguing that the Spurs should either: (a) overpay role players, or (b) acquire overpaid role players. And it's not just true in the current state of affairs, either -- the Spurs haven't really been overpaying role players for many, many years now.

The same is true with the Wallace deal -- you can say that there were no big names in that deal from Detroit's standpoint, but they did have several guys in that deal who made more than any Spurs role player currently makes. At that, the role players that they were able to include in the deal had value that went beyond their talent as players because the 4 contracts that Detroit moved to get Rasheed were all expiring. Outside of 2003, I can't remember the last time the Spurs had $17 million in expiring contracts for role players on the books.

Without the assets, they can't possibly make the sort of deal that you're wishing they would. The only way to acquire those assets is to start accumulating a bunch of bad contracts for role players with an eye towards hoping to land some big fish in a salary dump deal. Do you really want the Spurs to just take on the bloated contracts of a bunch of underperformers? I sure don't.

[wisnub]

The competition gets significantly better every year and so far this off season the Spurs haven't done enough to keep up with the competition. They stuck to their old stubborn ways of surrounding the big 3 with role players. Sure it got us 4 rings and it was great but at some stage you got to have a plan B.

When signing Roger Mason a guy that gave you 9ppg and expecting him to help your offensive droughts you got to be kidding yourself.:lmao:lmao Especially when Manu will be playing with a walking stick towards the end of the season.

Resigning the aging Kurt Thomas wasn’t a bad idea but he is 36. How much does he have left in him? If he gets injured then along comes the dud I can’t get a rebound Oberto who might start what a fuking joke. If that fails along comes Mahinimi who should go back and play volleyball.

Geoge Hill should stick to keep building houses. That opens the door to The Garbage Truck Vaughn:bang:bang, who is just fukin pathetic. Peter Holt will do a better job than him.

Michael Finley, who has been great for us but it was time to move on. He's done. The workers at the At&T center should put the wheel chair ramps up for him when he enters the building.

The Big 3 can only get us so far and I see us finishing 6th and getting knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round.

NOH or HOUSTON to take out the West.

THE RIDE IS OVER WE'RE DONE, BUT WHAT A JOURNEY IT WAS! :lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

AGREE

[wisnub]

Megan fox is hot

[AC#21_TD ERA]

That 'average' supporting cast won a championship a year ago.
It went all the way to the western conference finals months ago.
Reality doesn't agree with you.
That said, I believe the FO is always looking to get better, and they've tried. They went after Magette. They went after Pargo. The players decided to go somewhere else. Nothing you can do about that.
You tell me which go to guy scorer we can get by trading any of those pieces? It's easy to say 'Let's get a go to guy'. But you need to be able to offer something the other team wants badly enough for them to make the trade. Again, you tell me: Who should the Spurs be pursuing that they didn't, that we could potentially get by trading those guys you mention above?


Do you understand what im saying? What im saying is when we won those titles we had a decent supporting cast. Last season it wasn't bad it just had too many players that were done because of age so thats why we struggled to put the ball in the hoop. So coming into this off season i expected we improve our supporting cast. E.g Peitrus, JR Smith, we made a run at Magette, Ricky Davis, Delfino, trade for Artest, a bit of proven youth. I know some of them aren't all go to scorers but any one Or two of them would of been better than Finley and Mason. Mason and Finley they wont cut it. What pissed me off the most is that they only made an offer to one of them, Magette. They didn't get him so intsead the Spurs played it safe they had it planned all along if we cant CM then sign Mason re-sign Finley and call it an off season. They saved their money because there a bunch of tight asses and it's gonna come back to haunt those cowards.



You think if the Spurs could make a deal that is a steal they wouldn't do it?
It's not like Gasol was shopped around. Now, let say we do throw JV, Oberto and Udoka for Artest.
Our starting lineup: TP,Artest,Bowen,TD,Thomas...
Pros: Better defense through Artest.
Cons: Artest is a chucker. Does not know the system.
Now let's look at the second unit: Hill (rookie), Ginobili, Tolliver(rookie), Bonner, Mahinmi (rookie).
Pros: ????
Cons: If you don't see them, you must be blind.

So you just destroyed the surrounding cast around the big 3 in one trade. Exactly the opposite you were clamoring for. Unless you expect TP, TD and Bowen to play 48 minutes every game, I don't see how that deal would make us any better. I'll take JV over Hill, Udoka over Tolliver and Oberto over Bonner/Mahinmi every day of the week.

Oberto and JV i would put in that trade but Udoka who i rate highly but if it meant we get Artest then its a no brainer but i would try to throw in Finley or someone else instead. If that deal went threw it doesnt destroy our supproting cast we stll have Finley or Udoka, Mason, Bonner, Mahinimi. and Hll. Our supporting cast will survive becuase our Defense will be Phenomenal of the Artest acquisition. Would you rather have Artest with Houston? I DONT THINK SO.



Last I checked it was good enough to take us to the western conference finals. And I would argue we were an injury away from having a competitive series against the Lakers.

Yeah it was good enough to get us to WCF last season but its a new season now. The West just got a whole lot better. In that series LA didn't have Bynum so it evens up. We lost that series becuase Oberto and Finley started. Barry and Thomas should of started instead of them and there are many more reasons why we lost that series that had nothing to do with Manu's inj.


So be a good boy, take your Xanax, and enjoy the first half of the season. If something needs to be tweaked, we can always do something mid-season

I cant see it happening, l have lost faith in the Spurs FO, they have always been over rated. They have just been blessed with 3 of the all time greats and that's pretty easy to build around especailly when proven veterans that want to win a title come to the spurs for less money because they know its team to be with. THE SPURS F.O CAN GO TO HELL, THEY MAKE ME SICK!

[ElNono]

Do you understand what im saying? What im saying is when we won those titles we had a decent supporting cast. Last season it wasn't bad it just had too many players that were done because of age so thats why we struggled to put the ball in the hoop. So coming into this off season i expected we improve our supporting cast. E.g Peitrus, JR Smith, we made a run at Magette, Ricky Davis, Delfino, trade for Artest, a bit of proven youth. I know some of them aren't all go to scorers but any one Or two of them would of been better than Finley and Mason. Mason and Finley they wont cut it. What pissed me off the most is that they only made an offer to one of them, Magette. They didn't get him so intsead the Spurs played it safe they had it planned all along if we cant CM then sign Mason re-sign Finley and call it an off season. They saved their money because there a bunch of tight asses and it's gonna come back to haunt those cowards.

Pietrus was signed early in the offseason, and you don't know we didn't make an offer there. JR Smith was a restricted free agent, which basically meant we would have had to wait until the last day to see if Denver matched the offer. Ricky Davis encompasses everything that is wrong with basketball, so I'm actually glad we didn't go for him. The Spurs actually did field an offer for Delfino (or at least had conversations with him). Now, he's set to make 30 millions for the next 3 years, so even if we wanted to, we couldn't offer him that kind of money with what we had left of the MLE/LLE. And there's no way to make the Artest trade without butchering half of our team. Not to mention that IIRC, Artest contract runs out at the end of the season. So unless you commit to him for a boatload of money with an extension, you would lose him after one year.



Oberto and JV i would put in that trade but Udoka who i rate highly but if it meant we get Artest then its a no brainer but i would try to throw in Finley or someone else instead. If that deal went threw it doesnt destroy our supproting cast we stll have Finley or Udoka, Mason, Bonner, Mahinimi. and Hll. Our supporting cast will survive becuase our Defense will be Phenomenal of the Artest acquisition. Would you rather have Artest with Houston? I DONT THINK SO.


Artest (and Timmy and Tony) can't play for 48 minutes night in and night out and then expect them to perform just as well during the playoffs. That's the point of having a solid supporting cast. No matter how you slice that trade, you would be forced to play 2 or 3 rookies in the second unit. Just like you said, with the West getting so good, how do you figure we'll fare being forced to play those rookies for 10-20 minutes a night? Even if our first unit would improve, they can't just play the whole game. And if you think that Hill, Mahinmi and Tolliver will see more than just marginal minutes this next season, you're just delusional.



Yeah it was good enough to get us to WCF last season but its a new season now. The West just got a whole lot better. In that series LA didn't have Bynum so it evens up. We lost that series becuase Oberto and Finley started. Barry and Thomas should of started instead of them and there are many more reasons why we lost that series that had nothing to do with Manu's inj.


I agree we needed a better supporting cast. The difference is that I don't think that what we ended up with at this point is for lack of trying. We went for Magette, we went for Pargo, we went for Giriceck... They just didn't want to sign with us. This FO has nothing to do with that.



I cant see it happening, l have lost faith in the Spurs FO, they have always been over rated. They have just been blessed with 3 of the all time greats and that's pretty easy to build around especailly when proven veterans that want to win a title come to the spurs for less money because they know its team to be with. THE SPURS F.O CAN GO TO HELL, THEY MAKE ME SICK!

You, the armchair GM, has no problem. You also don't have to deal with cap space, with the fact that some teams don't want to trade assets, with the fact that some players prefer to play somewhere else. It's all easy for you.
And suggesting going for Ricky Davis sure as hell tells me enough of your basketball IQ and talent evaluation.
Just go back to your fantasy league, where everything is possible.