Palin's Favorability Ratings Begin to Falter

[LakeShow]

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/16/palin-s-favorability-ratings-begin-to-falter.aspx
Palin's Favorability Ratings Begin to Falter

Andrew Romano


To know her, it seems, is not necessarily to love her.
When John McCain picked Sarah Palin as his running mate late last month, the Alaska governor quickly became a media phenomenon. Largely unknown, she existed at first in something of an information vacuum, and due to the shock of her selection--everyone loves a surprise--the press rushed to fill the void with whatever data was easily available. Mostly this consisted of human interest material; Palin had plenty to go around. Mooseburgers. Float planes. Ice Fishing. Beauty pageants. Teen pregnancy. Et cetera. By the end of her first 15 minutes in the spotlight--which included her speech at the Republican National Convention in St. Paul--Palin existed mostly as an idea: a frontier supermom who'd triumphed over adversity (the Ol' Boys Club, the "liberal media"). Palin spent her first week reading from a teleprompter and avoiding questions from the press--and the public--so as not to sully this first impression.


The polls reflected the early success of her strategy. In the three days after Palin joined Team McCain--Aug. 29-31--32 percent of voters (http://diageohotlinepoll.com/08_Sept_Data.pdf) told the pollsters at Diageo/Hotline that they had a favorable opinion of her; most (48 percent) didn't know enough to say. By Sept. 4, however, 43 percent of Diageo/Hotline respondents (http://www.diageohotlinepoll.com/Tracker/Diageo%20Hotline%20Tracker%20release%20-%2009%2005%20final.pdf) approved of Palin with only 25 percent disapproving--an 18-point split. Apparently, voters were liking what they were hearing. Four days later, Palin's approval rating had climbed to 47 percent (+17) (http://www.diageohotlinepoll.com/documents/diageohotlinepoll/DiageoHotlineTracker090908release.pdf), and by Sept. 13 it had hit 52 percent (http://diageohotlinepoll.com/documents/diageohotlinepoll/DiageoHotlineTracker091508data.pdf). The gap at that point between her favorable and unfavorable numbers--22 percent--was larger than either McCain's (+20) or Obama's (+13).

But then a funny thing happened: Palin lost some of her luster. Since Sept. 13, Palin's unfavorables have climbed from 30 percent to 36 percent. Meanwhile, her favorables have slipped from 52 percent to 48 percent. That's a three-day net swing of -10 points, and it leaves her in the Sept. 15 Diageo/Hotline (http://www.diageohotlinepoll.com/documents/diageohotlinepoll/DiageoHotlineTracker091508data.pdf) tracking poll with the smallest favorability split (+10) of any of the Final Four. Over the course of a single weekend, in other words, Palin went from being the most popular White House hopeful to the least.

What happened? I'd argue that Palin's considerable novelty is starting to wear off. In part it's the result of a steady stream of unhelpful stories: her unfamiliarity with the Bush Doctrine during last Thursday's interview with Charles Gibson (http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/the_palin_interview.php) (video above); her refusal to cooperate with the Troopergate investigation (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iLn4BZ3L_-UcTHAXEq5ZdgST6UyA); her repeated stretching of the truth on everything from earmarks (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/11/why-all-this-talk-of-earmarks-is-nonsense.aspx) to the Bridge to Nowhere (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/08/politics-of-the-bridge-to-nowhere.aspx) to the amount of energy her state produces (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/energetically_wrong.html). That stuff has a way of inspiring disapproval and eroding one's support. (Interestingly, Palin's preparedness numbers--about 50 percent yes, 45 percent no--haven't budged.) But mostly it's the start of an inevitable process. Between now and Nov. 4, voters will stop seeing Palin as a fascinating story and starting taking her measure as an actual candidate for office. Some will approve; some won't. It remains to be seen whether Palin's recent slide will continue, or hurt John McCain in the polls. But it's hard to argue that the journey from intriguing new superstar to earthbound politician--a necessary part of the process--doesn't involve a loss of altitude.

Just ask Barack Obama.

UPDATE, 2:27 p.m.: Also, it doesn't help when McCain's Victory 2008 chair Carly Fiorina, the former CEO of Hewlett-Packard, tells a St. Louis radio host that Palin would've been unqualified to lead HP--a slightly less demanding role than leading the free world. Today's exchange:

[SpursFanFirst]

That Gibson interview was total crap, and it's unfortunate that the media has such a strong influence on the voters.

[Findog]

That Gibson interview was total crap, and it's unfortunate that the media has such a strong influence on the voters.

Yes, it's the media's fault that she didn't know the Bush doctrine, or that claiming to be able to "see Russia" makes her a foreign policy expert. Bloom is coming off this rose.

[Findog]

Don't like reality? Blame the media!

[Nbadan]

Told ya so.....in a couple months Palin will have a worse approval rating than Cheney and Congress...

[Ocotillo]

http://www.themonkeycage.org/palin-thumb.png

[lebomb]

Shit is starting to become real now.......hell, Im damn near as qualified to VP the country as Palin.

[efrem1]

When Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, people shouted "hosanna, glory in the highest." By the next week, they shouted "Crucify him and we have no king but Cesar." The point of this is that even the Son of God could be brought down by people who manipulated the truth.

[TheMadHatter]

When Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, people shouted "hosanna, glory in the highest." By the next week, they shouted "Crucify him and we have no king but Cesar." The point of this is that even the Son of God could be brought down by people who manipulated the truth.

Are you crazy?

[efrem1]

Are you crazy?

Yes we are crazy

Sincerely,

CS Lewis
Alexander Solshenytzen
Bryan Clay
Stephanie Brown Trafton
and a host of others through the centuries

[SpursFanFirst]

Don't like reality? Blame the media!


Well, as someone who works in the media, I've seen my fair share of bad choices where stories are concerned....but that also involves interviews.

In this case, I absolutely believe the editing was done in such a way that it made her look unfavorable.
What I can't believe is that Charles Gibson allowed his name to be associated with such crap.

[boutons_]

So efrem really does BELIEVE that the pitbull bitch is an 2nd coming of Christ and will be brought down like Christ.

pitbull bitch believes that end times will occur in her lifetime, among other weird-ass "religious" cult bullshit.

[PixelPusher]

Yes we are crazy

Sincerely,

CS Lewis
Alexander Solshenytzen
Bryan Clay
Stephanie Brown Trafton
and a host of others through the centuries

None of those guys compared Sarah Palin to Jesus Christ.

[florige]

That was the risk that McCain took by choosing her. Everyone is really starting to do their homework on her. It took a minute but they are.....

[SpursFanFirst]

That was the risk that McCain took by choosing her. Everyone is really starting to do their homework on her. It took a minute but they are.....


"Doing their homework?"
ABC completely butchered that interview with Palin by doing a crappy ass job of editing.
If there's really dirt to be dug up, then do it...but the media should present an interview as it was done...not as they wanted it to come off.

[Crookshanks]

Boutons - why do you have to be so hateful ALL the time? And why must you ALWAYS use such disparaging names for republicans? I've wondered this before, and I'm wondering it again - what happened to you to make you so mean, hateful and anti-religion and anti God?

There are many, many hundreds of thousands of people who believe we're living in the end times and that the rapture could occur in our lifetime. It's not religious cult BS - it's the major belief of the christian churches.

[Crookshanks]

None of those guys compared Sarah Palin to Jesus Christ.
He didn't compare her to Jesus Christ. He merely made the statement that even the perfect Son of God was the victim of people who manipulated the truth to suit their own purposes. If that could happen to Jesus, then it certainly wasn't a stretch to think it could happen to Gov. Palin.

[efrem1]

None of those guys compared Sarah Palin to Jesus Christ.


You miss my point. It is that with the proper manipulation of public opinion, anybody can be slammed and defamed. Sarah Palin is not my idol, but Obama is surely yours as he will deliver us from everything from the finiancial crisis to gout. I have seen federal law expand to crushing levels to provide for our every need. Obama will not change this.

[cool hand]

That Gibson interview was total crap, and it's unfortunate that the media has such a strong influence on the voters.

regardless of what political party you belong to, you have to answer questions and you need to know stuff about the world.

[cool hand]

if she is so religious, why is her daughter fucking before marriage?

[florige]

"Doing their homework?"
ABC completely butchered that interview with Palin by doing a crappy ass job of editing.
If there's really dirt to be dug up, then do it...but the media should present an interview as it was done...not as they wanted it to come off.



I understand your point. I was referring to the ongoing probes, and the other stuff that has surfaced about her within the last couple of days.

[SpursFanFirst]

regardless of what political party you belong to, you have to answer questions and you need to know stuff about the world.


Yes. I agree.
What's your point?

Have you read the transcript? She did answer the questions, but her soundbites were continuously cut off at the most "inconvenient (or convenient, if you're ABC)" places.

[SpursFanFirst]

if she is so religious, why is her daughter fucking before marriage?


Oh boy. We're not going to discuss this AGAIN, are we? Really?

[Bartleby]

Yes. I agree.
What's your point?

Have you read the transcript? She did answer the questions, but her soundbites were continuously cut off at the most "inconvenient (or convenient, if you're ABC)" places.

It's a conspiracy, I tell you. They hate her because she is as articulate as she is beautiful.

Damn those liberal chauvinist commie pigs! They need to be more deferential!

[TheMadHatter]

SpursFanFirst I saw the original transcript. I agree, in some places the editing was a little unfair. Unfortunately this is politics, and it isn't the first time someone's words have been twisted. They should have just broadcasted the interview in its entirety, there is still plenty of damaging material in there.

The overall impression I got, even from reading the transcript, is that she is not prepared to be vice president of this country. I understand you are a woman and you are naturally inclined to like Palin, but take off the blinders. She's not prepared for this job.

[SpursFanFirst]

SpursFanFirst I saw the original transcript. I agree, in some places the editing was a little unfair. Unfortunately this is politics, and it isn't the first time someone's words have been twisted. They should have just broadcasted the interview in its entirety, there is still plenty of damaging material in there.

The overall impression I got, even from reading the transcript, is that she is not prepared to be vice president of this country. I understand you are a woman and you are naturally inclined to like Palin, but take off the blinders. She's not prepared for this job.

So you're insinuating that, as a woman, I only vote for women?
Give me a break.

[Anti.Hero]

Yeah. No way in hell Obama is going to force me to help my community when it is filled with idiots like above.

Gonna go find my mountain top. bbl

[Xylus]

Palin being voted into office would be one of the worst things that could happen to America this election. She's clueless, she's untrustworthy, unqualified, and unprepared to be this country's vice president.

[Xylus]

There are many, many hundreds of thousands of people who believe we're living in the end times and that the rapture could occur in our lifetime. It's not religious cult BS - it's the major belief of the christian churches.

A belief isn't made substantial by the amount of people that believe in it. The chances of a rapture occurring are about as likely as an asteroid-sized, purple elephant falling from the sky and crushing the United States of America.

Anyone who would base any of their political positions on the idea that a purple elephant will crush the country would be laughed out of office. So why is Jesus such a powerful player in Washington?

[efrem1]

A belief isn't made substantial by the amount of people that believe in it. The chances of a rapture occurring are about as likely as an ansteroid-sized, purple elephant falling from the sky and crushing the United States of America.

Anyone who would base any of their political positions on the idea that a purple elephant will crush the country would be laughed out of office. So why is Jesus such a powerful player in Washington?

Well I for one don't believe in the pre-trib rapture.

Man has tried to create heaven on earth and it has resulted in the deaths of over 100 million people since the early 20th Century. Ukranian famine, Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, the Holocaust, the murder of the unborn. Oh we have really progressed haven't we?

[Nbadan]

Oh boy. We're not going to discuss this AGAIN, are we? Really?

I think it's a valid point given Palin's support for abstinence....

[baseline bum]

Boutons - why do you have to be so hateful ALL the time? And why must you ALWAYS use such disparaging names for republicans? I've wondered this before, and I'm wondering it again - what happened to you to make you so mean, hateful and anti-religion and anti God?

There are many, many hundreds of thousands of people who believe we're living in the end times and that the rapture could occur in our lifetime. It's not religious cult BS - it's the major belief of the christian churches.

Lots of dumbasses believe in ghosts and UFOs too. Gotta love church trying to scare people into falling in line with empty threats.

[Xylus]

I think it's a valid point given Palin's support for abstinence....

It's not a valid point at all. Palin doesn't control the actions of her children, they make their own decisions. And I didn't think this was a secret: Children often make decisions contrary to their parents' wishes.

There are several other weapons with which to attack Palin with.

[Crookshanks]

Lots of dumbasses believe in ghosts and UFOs too. Gotta love church trying to scare people into falling in line with empty threats.

I'm not trying to scare anyone; I'm just stating there are lots of people with the same beliefs as Sarah Palin. You can call us whatever name you want - but we'll see who has the last laugh. Everyone has the free will to believe or not believe - it won't change my eternity if you don't.

I just wondered why boutons was always so angry and hateful. I still think something bad must've happened to him to make him that way.

[Nbadan]

I mean common...if your gonna advocate a policy shouldn't your first advocacy be with your own kids? I know kids do things that parents approve of frequently, but wouldn't this situation have been different if perhaps Palin had been more of an advocate of contraception training instead of abstinence?

[Xylus]

I know kids do things that parents approve of frequently, but wouldn't this situation have been different if perhaps Palin had been more of an advocate of contraception training instead of abstinence?

I agree that pregnancy would be less likely if Mommy Palin had advocated contraception, but it's by no means a complete deterrent. Many, many, many people who regularly use contraception make mistakes and end up getting pregnant anyway.

[SpursFanFirst]

I mean common...if your gonna advocate a policy shouldn't your first advocacy be with your own kids? I know kids do things that parents approve of frequently, but wouldn't this situation have been different if perhaps Palin had been more of an advocate of contraception training instead of abstinence?

You just really don't get it, do you?
It's pointless to even discuss this with you.

[PixelPusher]

There are many, many hundreds of thousands of people who believe we're living in the end times and that the rapture could occur in our lifetime. It's not religious cult BS - it's the major belief of the christian churches.

Why should we entrust our future to someone who believes the end is nigh?

[baseline bum]

I'm not trying to scare anyone; I'm just stating there are lots of people with the same beliefs as Sarah Palin. You can call us whatever name you want - but we'll see who has the last laugh. Everyone has the free will to believe or not believe - it won't change my eternity if you don't.

I just wondered why boutons was always so angry and hateful. I still think something bad must've happened to him to make him that way.

What last laugh? If you believe you're going anywhere but the ground after you die, I've got some nice oceanfront property for sale in Palm Springs.

[Crookshanks]

I mean common...if your gonna advocate a policy shouldn't your first advocacy be with your own kids? I know kids do things that parents approve of frequently, but wouldn't this situation have been different if perhaps Palin had been more of an advocate of contraception training instead of abstinence?

I'm sure her daughter knew about contraception - kids now days are far more informed than we ever were. You can "advocate" till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean your children will always follow your beliefs.

I have an idea that Bristol was well aware of the morals and convictions of her mother and father - maybe she even agreed with them. However, she's a teenager - with the same hormones and desires as every other teenager - and she allowed herself to get in a situation where it was impossible to avoid the temptation. And who knows - maybe they did use contraception and it failed. And maybe it only happened once and it wasn't something that was planned or even anticipated would happen - so they weren't prepared.

Bottom line - kids make mistakes, no matter how they've been reared; and we don't know the facts of the situation other than she's 17, unmarried and pregnant. It's a total non issue!

[Creepn]

So you're insinuating that, as a woman, I only vote for women?
Give me a break.

I'd say so, it can't be because of her experience or foriegn policy skills.

[Crookshanks]

What last laugh? If you believe you're going anywhere but the ground after you die, I've got some nice oceanfront property for sale in Palm Springs.
As I said - doesn't matter what you think of me and your unbelief does nothing to change my eternity. And actually, it won't be the last laugh - it will be a real tragedy for those left behind. And there's probably nothing I can say that will change your beliefs - so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

But think of this - if you're right and I'm wrong, I've lost nothing. I've lived a good life - and I believe a better life because of my faith. And if there's nothing after I die, then so what.

BUT - if I'm right and you're wrong? Well, that's a whole nother story isn't it?! You have far more to lose than I have - so let's just leave it at that.

[SpursFanFirst]

I'd say so, it can't be because of her experience or foriegn policy skills.


Gosh, golly, gee....however did I make a decision all the other times I voted and there wasn't a woman to be found?!?!

It's a good thing I'm on this board so I can get educated from all the intelligent men, such as yourself.

I can hardly wait.

[baseline bum]

I agree that pregnancy would be less likely if Mommy Palin had advocated contraception, but it's by no means a complete deterrent. Many, many, many people who regularly use contraception make mistakes and end up getting pregnant anyway.

Hence, proper contraceptive use should be taught to high school and jr. high students.

[Xylus]

Hence, proper contraceptive use should be taught to high school and jr. high students.

Word to Big Bird.

[Nbadan]

Bottom line - kids make mistakes, no matter how they've been reared; and we don't know the facts of the situation other than she's 17, unmarried and pregnant. It's a total non issue!

Maybe so, if you just look at Bristle's situation...but Palin also has a son addicted to Oxycontin (according to the Republican new source of choice - the national enquirer) and a hubby who stays home while he's in a union, who according to Hagee and other religious nuts is a 'abomination of GOD'....doesn't completely jive with any GOP advocacy positions does it?

[Crookshanks]

Hence, proper contraceptive use should be taught to high school and jr. high students.

I doubt you'd find many, if any, students in a public high school today who didn't understand the concept and use of a condom. But that doesn't mean they're going to use it - teenagers do impulsive things in the heat of the moment, without thinking of the consequences.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

As I said - doesn't matter what you think of me and your unbelief does nothing to change my eternity. And actually, it won't be the last laugh - it will be a real tragedy for those left behind. And there's probably nothing I can say that will change your beliefs - so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

But think of this - if you're right and I'm wrong, I've lost nothing. I've lived a good life - and I believe a better life because of my faith. And if there's nothing after I die, then so what.

BUT - if I'm right and you're wrong? Well, that's a whole nother story isn't it?! You have far more to lose than I have - so let's just leave it at that.

In other words, you believe... just in case shit happens? You believe in an almighty, all knowing God, and you think you can dupe him by covering your bases? that's a little naive isn't it?

[baseline bum]

Yeah, that God guy's a real prick if he damns everyone who doesn't believe a bunch of man-made myths.

[Nbadan]

Yeah, that God guy's a real prick if he damns everyone who doesn't believe a bunch of man-made myths.

Now..now...religion in itself is not the enemy here....it's some peoples interpretation of it that's the problem....

[baseline bum]

Religion is a great way to make money without being taxed.

[PixelPusher]

Now..now...religion in itself is not the enemy here....it's some peoples interpretation of it that's the problem....

Nah, I'm gonna have to go with religion straight up. Even if you take the believe in God out of if, people will find something else to turn into a religion, with the same deleterious results.

[Creepn]

Gosh, golly, gee....however did I make a decision all the other times I voted and there wasn't a woman to be found?!?!

It's a good thing I'm on this board so I can get educated from all the intelligent men, such as yourself.

I can hardly wait.

You're the one that said "women" in the first place. Who were you referring to?

Anyway, obviously I was talking about our present time with Palin.

[Nbadan]

Nah, I'm gonna have to go with religion straight up. Even if you take the believe in God out of if, people will find something else to turn into a religion, with the same deleterious results.

Religion can be a positive thing...I mean, when your in your death bed you gotta believe that there is more to death than just 'the end'...whether it's true or not it kinda gives you peace and comfort...

[Crookshanks]

In other words, you believe... just in case shit happens? You believe in an almighty, all knowing God, and you think you can dupe him by covering your bases? that's a little naive isn't it?
That's not what I said at all. There's no way to define faith; but I believe in the almighty, all knowing God and I'm not trying to dupe God. I know what I believe and why and I know I'm going to heaven when I die or I'll be raptured before then if Jesus comes back first.

I was merely stating that even if I was wrong about everything I believe, I would've lost nothing in this life. On the other hand, if baseline bum is wrong in what he believes - he has so much more to lose.

But let's not take this thread into a whole other direction - so let's leave it at that.

[TheMadHatter]

Palin's favorability rating amongst Democrats is declining, which is a good thing because Barack needs all the Democratic votes he can get. I'm willing to bet McCain wins the Independent vote in most swing states.

[PixelPusher]

Spirituality can be a positive thing...I mean, when your in your death bed you gotta believe that there is more to death than just 'the end'...whether it's true or not it kinda gives you peace and comfort...

Fixed, to correct the very common conflation of religion and spirituality.

[spurster]

Palin is going to Washington to fix things while she refuses to cooperate with a serious investigation. Yeah, right.

[boutons_]

'It's not religious cult BS - it's the major belief of the christian churches."

Yes, it's religious cult/fringe made-up bullshit, as bullshitt-y and con-job-ly stupid as dressing in new sports clothes, comitting suicide to hitch a ride on a comet tail, or getting conned into South American jungles and drinking the kook-aid.

Christianity goes back 2000 years. This end-times, fear-mongering bullshit has been dreamed up as a revenue scheme (books, tithing, etc) in the past few decades.

That millions IN THE USA believe the bullshit con-job doesn't make it non-bullshit. iow. spiritual Truth is not democratically elected.

Not one of these end-times, bullshitting, self-annointed "pastors" has a continuous-revelation hot-line to God, so all their end-times conned victims are sheeple. The "pastors" all "false prophets". You might want to look that in your well-thumped Bible.

[Crookshanks]

I'm not going to turn this into a discussion about religion. You're free to believe or not believe, just as I am. So you can think what you like about the christians and we can think what we like about people like you - and I guess only time will tell which one of us was right. But I'll say this one last time - if I'm right, I wouldn't want to be you!

[baseline bum]

If you're right, then God's a judgmental prick who'll probably screw you over too.

[diggers]

Christian churches have an agenda for America - filling top positions - God country - White Christian God Country. Where else can you find the perfect setting to raise up leaders of your persuasion? Church meets twice a week where passionate involved members cry out (pray) for God to raise up christian leaders? This beats prime time ads on TV and the internet. I have seen in my church invited politicians come and speak. Did you watch Palin's speak in her church (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html)? "Pray for__________ (a sure vote) Members listen and trust their church leaders and follow their advise. Winning over the christian (chruch leaders) is the reason we see only one faith elevated in this country (when running for election.) Separate church from state? Are you kidding? The snowball has gained momentum and the only thing that will stop it is arrogance. Arrogance is when a person or group gets their way so often (living above others) that their words and deeds no longer need to be hidden. Example, when Alaskan voters VOTED TWICE TO BAN AERIAL HUNTING > Palin not only gets aerial hunting on the books she pays (with government funding) in/out of state aerial hunters! Almost half a million dollars!

Many people think Palin is a crazy, dumb, hockey mom with no experience. They are mistaken. She is not! She is an experienced politician who can gets what she wants. Our votes count? hahahaha BOOOOOOOOya take that one to the ballot box and see where it gets ya. Click link below for more info.

"This is the third time there's been a statewide vote on this issue. (http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=8851174) The other votes were in 1996 and 2000, both against aerial shooting. (http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=8851174)
The first vote was overwhelmingly against the issue and the second vote was a very strong majority. (http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=8851174)
However, the state Legislature overturned both of those decisions." (http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=8851174) Lori Tipton (http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=8851174)

In conclusion Palin is one smart cookie with the backing of church leaders. "Touch not my anointed." Bets were taken long before about Palin stopping the investigation days before the election. NOW HERE WE SEE IT HAPPENING Hello? After the election who cares ... she'll be just be another abuse of power giving God a black eye.

[TheMadHatter]

Why do you believe in thousand year old fairy tales?

Jesus was not the son of God. He may have existed historically, but people were fucking stupid thousands of years ago. They believed a lot o ridiculous shit like the earth is flat and that we are in the center of our solar system. Furthermore, why would God reveal himself thousands of years ago to people and then not come back ever again to show his face? What was so special about a thousand years ago that he had to come to Earth?

The more you ask yourself these questions the more you'll realize Christianity is one giant fairy tale. It's sad that ordinary people can be hoodwinked like you.

[diggers]

@ MadHatter Hoodwinked (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=TreGGyg6gOg)? Are you speaking to me? If so that is interesting that's all you took from my post. Maybe it is the bitterness that blinds you for whatever reasons (triggers>experiences) you have from your past. Who knows?

Wake UP call: You DO NOT know what my beliefs are so your Gaawd like judgments are similar to the religious right who turn you off and blind you from other peoples input/ideas. How ironic.

[possessed]

That was the risk that McCain took by choosing her. Everyone is really starting to do their homework on her. It took a minute but they are.....

Kind of like they did with Obama, who doesn't seem nearly as popular as he was a few months ago.

[boutons_]

"if I'm right, I wouldn't want to be you"

Even if you and the pitbull bitch are right (she said she believes End Times be coming in her lifetime), I have no fear about my soul, nor do I fear for the souls of billions of people's souls not in your perverted group.

I'm extremely contented being OUTSIDE of your tent reeking of brain-washing, money-scamming bullshit.

Muslims, esp the extremists identical in belief as End Times "Christians", have the same in-group/out-group, us-vs-them position: "infidels" (non-believers) must be killed, and they draw such a position from literal interpretation of their "Bible", just as "people like you" do.

[DarkReign]

Lots of dumbasses believe in ghosts and UFOs too. Gotta love church trying to scare people into falling in line with empty threats.

Question about UFOs...

You dont? Experienced pilot testimonies? French Government declassifying? Etc?

[lebomb]

Why do you believe in thousand year old fairy tales?

Jesus was not the son of God. He may have existed historically, but people were fucking stupid thousands of years ago. They believed a lot o ridiculous shit like the earth is flat and that we are in the center of our solar system. Furthermore, why would God reveal himself thousands of years ago to people and then not come back ever again to show his face? What was so special about a thousand years ago that he had to come to Earth?

The more you ask yourself these questions the more you'll realize Christianity is one giant fairy tale. It's sad that ordinary people can be hoodwinked like you.

Oh, there was a huge bang.........and a creature crawled up onto land and developed into an intelligent human being 1 billion years later is just as believable?

:rollin :lmao :rollin :lmao :rollin


If Im wrong about Christianity, oh well at least Ive tried to live a bit better........If Im right and you are wrong..........you are in trouble.

I have nothing to lose. :rolleyes

[DarkReign]

Oh, there was a huge bang.........and a creature crawled up onto land and developed into an intelligent human being 1 billion years later is just as believable?

So God created the earth and heavens in 7 days, then?

And yes, there was a Huge Bang. Read a book sometime. Our universe is ever expanding and thru triangulation from our galaxy to the two nearest galaxies, we are all receding from one another at a nice, brisk pace from a common center.

Way to go.

[baseline bum]

LMAO when people use the hedging their bets argument to justify belief.

[DarkReign]

LMAO when people use the hedging their bets argument to justify belief.

Seriously, BB....about the UFO thing. Just a quick opinion, or a long one....your choice.

Im just a'wonderin'.

[baseline bum]

Nope, I don't believe in UFOs since I have seen no decent evidence.

[DarkReign]

Nope, I don't believe in UFOs since I have seen no decent evidence.

Fair enough. But if others had/have observed them, like the numerous private/military pilots, would you lump them into the "dumbass" pile?

Im not necessarily saying Alien-piloted Flying Saucers, but there has been phenomena recorded that isnt explainable. Guys that have flown for over 30 years, military test pilots familiar with the latest and greatest the government has to offer, that can not explain away what they saw.

Obviously, I dont know shit from Shinola on the subject because a) Im not a pilot and b) I dont find myself looking to the sky too often waiting for something to run across it that I cant explain.

The French Government recently declassified all their documents that referenced UFOs and basically have a policy of "the world should know" as of now. The Russians are next in line to do the same thing (so its said, Ill believe it when I see it).

So, my question to you is....what would it take for you to believe? A personal sighting? A government sanctioned report admitting their existence? A video of excellent quality from a reputable source?

[DarkReign]

I'll unhijack the thread now.

[Blake]

I'll unhijack the thread now.

Too late.


So, my question to you is....what would it take for you to believe? A personal sighting? A government sanctioned report admitting their existence? A video of excellent quality from a reputable source?

my own personal sighting would make me 99% a believer. A govt report would make me about 50% a believer and a video of high quality from a reputable source would make me about a 10% believer because I rarely ever believe what I see on TV.

My personal belief is that all of these UFOs are military experiments. You may or may not be surprised at the flight technology we are capable of incorporating in today's times.

[Blake]

When Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, people shouted "hosanna, glory in the highest." By the next week, they shouted "Crucify him and we have no king but Cesar." The point of this is that even the Son of God could be brought down by people who manipulated the truth.

who exactly are you referring to when you say they "manipulated the truth"?

[ElNono]

Actually, for those that said they 'lost nothing' if they're wrong, I'll disagree. I'm willing to bet they skipped a good chunk of fun stuff in life in order to keep this cozy, imaginary parcel of heaven. The whole 'I lost nothing' is a pathetic excuse to justify not living life to the fullest because of fear of what God almighty will do when the die.

[Creepn]

Actually, for those that said they 'lost nothing' if they're wrong, I'll disagree. I'm willing to bet they skipped a good chunk of fun stuff in life in order to keep this cozy, imaginary parcel of heaven. The whole 'I lost nothing' is a pathetic excuse to justify not living life to the fullest because of fear of what God almighty will do when the die.

I'd have to agree with you there. I never questioned my Christian belief until a few years ago and then I took classes to study how religion came about and thrived. Basically in the end of all this studying, my eyes have been opened. Religion is....a man made thing. Religion adopted and took pieces they liked from other religions when countries were conquered. For example Judaism and Christianity got the concept of heaven and hell and angels from Zoroastrianism when they were conquered by the Persians.

Or think about this. Christianity only survived because Constantine pushed it to the front. If it wasnt for him, Christianity wouldve been a dead religion and probably never even heard of present day. So instead, we'd be talking about another dominate religion right now.

Now I see religion in a whole new light and I feel that a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I feel free and and this whole guilt feeling and fear is gone.

I wouldnt consider myself an athiest though.

[Spurminator]

Actually, for those that said they 'lost nothing' if they're wrong, I'll disagree. I'm willing to bet they skipped a good chunk of fun stuff in life in order to keep this cozy, imaginary parcel of heaven. The whole 'I lost nothing' is a pathetic excuse to justify not living life to the fullest because of fear of what God almighty will do when the die.

Such as?

[Creepn]

Hanging out with other sinners that wants to have fun.

Fucking?
Grinding up on some girl at the clubs?
Choking the chicken?

[Spurminator]

What a coincidence, I was just talking to my grandfather the other day and he told me that his biggest regret in life was that he never got to grind up on some girl at the clubs. He then cursed God and his parents and went to his room to spank it to the VMAs.

[Crookshanks]

Hanging out with other sinners that wants to have fun.

Fucking?
Grinding up on some girl at the clubs?
Choking the chicken?

If that's your idea of fun, and you'd turn your back on God and religion for it, then you have a sad, pathetic life and I feel sorry for you.

As for me - this is what I've "missed" out on
1. Being drunk/hungover on a regular basis
2. Being an alcoholic
3. Being a drug addict
4. Having an STD
5. Having an unwanted pregnancy

Gee - I've missed soooo much! If I died today, the only regret I'd have is that I didn't get to see my daughter get married or see my grandchildren grow up.

[Creepn]

If that's your idea of fun, and you'd turn your back on God and religion for it, then you have a sad, pathetic life and I feel sorry for you.

As for me - this is what I've "missed" out on
1. Being drunk/hungover on a regular basis
2. Being an alcoholic
3. Being a drug addict
4. Having an STD
5. Having an unwanted pregnancy

Gee - I've missed soooo much! If I died today, the only regret I'd have is that I didn't get to see my daughter get married or see my grandchildren grow up.

If you think what I listed is everthing then you should feel sorry for yourself.

But anyway, if your feel that your little list is what you would be missing out on then Im glad you found religion because you would be one irresponsible muthafucka. :lol

[ElNono]

Such as?

Having to interrupt your and your family weekend because you have to go to church? Fucking that hot neighbor that has been looking at you for a while even though she's married and you're not? How about plain old sex with some chick before getting married? A twosome? Threesome?
How about getting divorced and finding a new partner in life when it's obvious you made a mistake before?
This is just off the top of my head.

[Mr. Peabody]

If Im wrong about Christianity, oh well at least Ive tried to live a bit better........If Im right and you are wrong..........you are in trouble.

I have nothing to lose. :rolleyes

I hear you. When I realized I was an atheist, my life changed for the better. I realized that there wasn't going to be any afterlife and so I should enjoy every day that I have in this finite life that I live. I realized that I do not have eternal life and therefore, I can't waste time worrying about unimportant shit like what others think, my place in society, etc. I realized that after I'm gone or my loved ones are gone, we are not going to reunite in heaven, so I make sure that they constantly know how much I love and care about them because I may never see them again. I realized that there is no afterlife and therefore, I need to do all I can to improve my life and the lives of others because we only get one shot at this thing. I realized that if there is going to be any "paradise" it's going to have to take place here on Earth and as such, I try to be as kind as I can to others. I realized that we are all here for only an infinitesimal period of time in so we shouldn't waste our lives being divided and hating each other over trivial shit.

[LakeShow]

She'll be ok. All she needs is prayer from the witchunter. :fro


Palin linked electoral success to prayer of Kenyan witchhunter

http://timesonline.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/16/blog_hstrange_2.jpg (http://timesonline.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/16/blog_hstrange_2.jpg) The pastor whose prayer Sarah Palin says helped her to become governor of Alaska founded his ministry with a witchhunt against a Kenyan woman who he accused of causing car accidents through demonic spells.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/16/muthee_400156g.jpgAt a speech at the Wasilla Assembly of God on June 8 this year, Mrs Palin described how Thomas Muthee had laid his hands on her when he visited the church as a guest preacher in late 2005, prior to her successful gubernatorial bid.

In video footage of the speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8twqZpUT2NQ), she is seen saying: “As I was mayor and Pastor Muthee was here and he was praying over me, and you know how he speaks and he’s so bold. And he was praying “Lord make a way, Lord make a way.”

“And I’m thinking, this guy’s really bold, he doesn’t even know what I’m going to do, he doesn’t know what my plans are. And he’s praying not “oh Lord if it be your will may she become governor,” no, he just prayed for it. He said “Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that’s exactly what happened.”

She then adds: “So, again, very very powerful, coming from this church,” before the presiding pastor comments on the “prophetic power” of the event.

An African evangelist, Pastor Muthee has given guest sermons at the Wasilla Assembly of God (http://www.wasillaag.org/) on at least 10 occasions in his role as the founder of the Word of Faith Church, also known as the Prayer Cave.

Pastor Muthee founded the Prayer Cave in 1989 in Kiambu, Kenya after “God spoke” to him and his late wife Margaret and called him to the country, according to the church’s website. (http://www.wofchurchke.org/)

The pastor speaks of his offensive against a demonic presence in the town in a trailer for the evangelical video “Transformations” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBvxWl7jXr0&feature=related), made by Sentinel Group, a Christian research and information agency.

“We prayed, we fasted, the Lord showed us a spirit of witchcraft resting over the place,” Pastor Muthee says.

After the spirit was broken, the crime rate dropped to almost zero and there was “explosive church growth” while almost every bar in the town closed down, the video says.

The full Transformations video featuring Pastor Muthee’s story has recently been removed from YouTube but the rest of the story is detailed in a 1999 article in the Christian Science Monitor (http://www.csmonitor.com/1999/0923/p15s1.html), as well as on numerous evangelical websites.

According to the Christian Science Monitor, six months of fervent prayer and research identified the source of the witchcraft as a local woman called Mama Jane, who ran a “divination” centre called the Emmanuel Clinic.
Her alleged involvement in fortune-telling and the fact that she lived near the site of a number of fatal car accidents led Pastor Muthee to publicly declare her a witch responsible for the town’s ills, and order her to offer her up her soul for salvation or leave Kiambu.

Says the Monitor, “Muthee held a crusade that “brought about 200 people to Christ”.” They set up round-the-clock prayer intercession in the basement of a grocery store and eventually, says the pastor “the demonic influence – the ‘principality’ over Kiambu –was broken”, and Mama Jane fled the town.

According to accounts of the witchhunt circulated on evangelical websites such as Prayer Links Ministries (http://www.prayerlinksministries.com/), after Pastor Muthee declared Mama Jane a witch, the townspeople became suspicious and began to turn on her, demanding that she be stoned. Public outrage eventually led the police to raid her home, where they fired gunshots, killing a pet python which they believed to be a demon.

After Mama Jane was questioned by police – and released – she decided it was time to leave town, the account says.

Pastor Muthee has frequently referred to this witchhunt in his sermons as an example of the power of “spiritual warfare”. In October 2005, he delivered ten sermons at the Wasilla Assembly of God, the audio of which was available on the church’s website until it was removed around the time Mrs Palin’s candidacy was announced. The blog Irregular Times (http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2008/09/16/what-is-the-wasilla-assemblies-of-god-trying-to-hide-for-palin/) has listings and screen grabs of the sermons.

It was during that these sermons that Mrs Palin, who was then preparing for her gubernatorial run, was anointed by Pastor Muthee. His intercession, she says, was “awesome”.

Her June 8 speech was to mark the graduation of students from the Wasilla Assembly of God’s Masters’ Commission, which, as Pastor Ed Kalins explains (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8twqZpUT2NQ), believes Alaska will be the refuge for American evangelicals upon the coming “End of Days”. After her speech, Mrs Palin was presented with an honorary Masters’ Commission diploma.

[Crookshanks]

Having to interrupt your and your family weekend because you have to go to church? Fucking that hot neighbor that has been looking at you for a while even though she's married and you're not? How about plain old sex with some chick before getting married? A twosome? Threesome?
How about getting divorced and finding a new partner in life when it's obvious you made a mistake before?
This is just off the top of my head.

Some of what you mention here has nothing to do with religion - it's just plain immoral! Even people who are not religious frown on infidelity. And the statement about divorce shows your ignorance because people who are christians get divorces - maybe it just takes more to get them to that point. And none of the churches I've been a member of condemned people who were divorced.

[Mr. Peabody]

Some of what you mention here has nothing to do with religion - it's just plain immoral!
:lol:toast:lol

[Creepn]

I hear you. When I realized I was an atheist, my life changed for the better. I realized that there wasn't going to be any afterlife and so I should enjoy every day that I have in this finite life that I live. I realized that I do not have eternal life and therefore, I can't waste time worrying about unimportant shit like what others think, my place in society, etc. I realized that after I'm gone or my loved ones are gone, we are not going to reunite in heaven, so I make sure that they constantly know how much I love and care about them because I may never see them again. I realized that there is no afterlife and therefore, I need to do all I can to improve my life and the lives of others because we only get one shot at this thing. I realized that if there is going to be any "paradise" it's going to have to take place here on Earth and as such, I try to be as kind as I can to others. I realized that we are all here for only an infinitesimal period of time in so we shouldn't waste our lives being divided and hating each other over trivial shit.

Thats depressing. You almost turned me into a muslim with that statement.

[Mr. Peabody]

Thats depressing. You almost turned me into a muslim with that statement.

:lol

I don't find it depressing at all. If anything, it's very life-affirming.

[ploto]

And he’s praying not “oh Lord if it be your will may she become governor,” no, he just prayed for it. He said “Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that’s exactly what happened.”
Isn't this the exact opposite of what someone claimed she was praying in the discussion about the gas pipeline?

[PixelPusher]

I guess we can add "Sarah Palin" to the list of topics that inevitably lead to discussions about religions on message boards.

[Mr. Body]

It's funny how you walk into a thread and on page four it has nothing to do with the title.

[DarkReign]

I guess we can add "Sarah Palin" to the list of topics that inevitably lead to discussions about religions on message boards.


It's funny how you walk into a thread and on page four it has nothing to do with the title.

Thats my bad. But we were there already and I wasnt going to cut-n-run.

[rascal]

As I said - doesn't matter what you think of me and your unbelief does nothing to change my eternity. And actually, it won't be the last laugh - it will be a real tragedy for those left behind. And there's probably nothing I can say that will change your beliefs - so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

But think of this - if you're right and I'm wrong, I've lost nothing. I've lived a good life - and I believe a better life because of my faith. And if there's nothing after I die, then so what.

BUT - if I'm right and you're wrong? Well, that's a whole nother story isn't it?! You have far more to lose than I have - so let's just leave it at that.
Agree with this. I see no benefit in believing death is the final end. It makes more sense that life continues in another realm or dimension beyond what we know and life as we know it, is just one big test and learning experience with final review after we die.

But thats for another thread.

[DarkReign]

Agree with this. I see no benefit in believing death is the final end. It makes more sense that life continues in another realm or dimension beyond what we know and life as we know it, is just one big test and learning experience with final review after we die.

But thats for another thread.

Start it with this post.

[rascal]

I hear you. When I realized I was an atheist, my life changed for the better. I realized that there wasn't going to be any afterlife and so I should enjoy every day that I have in this finite life that I live. I realized that I do not have eternal life and therefore, I can't waste time worrying about unimportant shit like what others think, my place in society, etc. I realized that after I'm gone or my loved ones are gone, we are not going to reunite in heaven, so I make sure that they constantly know how much I love and care about them because I may never see them again. I realized that there is no afterlife and therefore, I need to do all I can to improve my life and the lives of others because we only get one shot at this thing. I realized that if there is going to be any "paradise" it's going to have to take place here on Earth and as such, I try to be as kind as I can to others. I realized that we are all here for only an infinitesimal period of time in so we shouldn't waste our lives being divided and hating each other over trivial shit.


This is total BS. If you don't believe you won't have any accountability for your actions then you will do anything that you can get away with even at the expense of others if it benefits you regardless of how it affects others. You said it yourself, you don't care about worrying about what others think. So basically you don't care about how your actions may affect others.


What is wrong with being open to believing that there is a greater force beyond what you see? Isn't there something in the Bible regarding people like you who don't believe because they don't have proof or cannot see it first hand? blessed are those who believe who don't see. Something like that. The exact words might be off because I am not literally into the Bible but I know the general message.

I know many things exist beyond what man knows because new discoveries are happening. To believe anything else would mean that man is presently all knowing and there is no more that can be learned. Do you really believe that?

Is it then possible there are other dimensions beyond what we know? Of course there is. to someone like you nothing exists until it is proven to exist. I say it still exists even though you may not have definite proof that it exists.

Do you know what you will experience at death? Of course not because you have not experienced it yet.

Was the world not round before it was proven to be? if you lived backed before it was proven to be round you would be have believed it was flat. But others with greater insight believed what it really was and set sail to prove it.

[romad_20]

This is total BS. If you don't believe you won't have any accountability for your actions then you will do anything that you can get away with even at the expense of others if it benefits you regardless of how it affects others.

This is not true at all. Just because you don't have a religion doesn't mean you don't know the difference between right and wrong.


Was the world not round before it was proven to be? if you lived backed before it was proven to be round you would be have believed it was flat. But others with greater insight believed what it really was and set sail to prove it

And a lot of those people who believed those things were severely persecuted by religious zealots.

[rascal]

This is not true at all. Just because you don't have a religion doesn't mean you don't know the difference between right and wrong.



And a lot of those people who believed those things were severely persecuted by religious zealots.


Never said you didn't know the difference, just you are less likely to care about consequences to others if you could get away with things and not pay any consequences because after all the only thing that matters is this life and the most you can get out of it.

Life on Earth is not fair, never has been and never will be but the great thing is in the end eveything will balance out and will be judged rightly. You will not only be judged on your actions but your true heart.

No arguing that there have been religious zealots who have lost sight of the message and pushed there beliefs on others in the wrong way.

[The Reckoning]

people act like taking on a religious life isnt rewarding while being alive. its actually a very gratifying experience.

[baseline bum]

What is wrong with being open to believing that there is a greater force beyond what you see? Isn't there something in the Bible regarding people like you who don't believe because they don't have proof or cannot see it first hand? blessed are those who believe who don't see. Something like that. The exact words might be off because I am not literally into the Bible but I know the general message.


People who tell me to believe and just trust them without supporting evidence are often trying to con me.



I know many things exist beyond what man knows because new discoveries are happening. To believe anything else would mean that man is presently all knowing and there is no more that can be learned. Do you really believe that?


How so? Man is all knowing? Then explain how gravity works.



Is it then possible there are other dimensions beyond what we know? Of course there is. to someone like you nothing exists until it is proven to exist. I say it still exists even though you may not have definite proof that it exists.


Of course I believe something doesn't exist until someone shows me decent evidence that it does. I don't believe in bigfoot or the loch-ness monster either even though tons of people insist they exist.



Do you know what you will experience at death? Of course not because you have not experienced it yet.


Nope. The simplest and most likely explanation is nothing, since the physical processes that create my consciousness will have stopped.



Was the world not round before it was proven to be? if you lived backed before it was proven to be round you would be have believed it was flat. But others with greater insight believed what it really was and set sail to prove it.

Sailors believed the world was spherical because they could see ship's masts in the distance before their hulls were visible, and a spherical earth was the simplest explanation. That was real evidence that pointed towards a spherical earth; not blind conjecture.

[The Reckoning]

einstein himself said that the universe is so complexly organized that there must be a greater force involved that we cannot fully comprehend...not to mention that a catholic priest proposed the big bang theory.

[Mr. Peabody]

This is total BS. If you don't believe you won't have any accountability for your actions then you will do anything that you can get away with even at the expense of others if it benefits you regardless of how it affects others. You said it yourself, you don't care about worrying about what others think. So basically you don't care about how your actions may affect others.

Where do you get that I don't believe that I have to account for my actions? I am one of the most moral people you will ever meet. Like I said, I realize that we are all only here for a finite period of time and as such, I am going to make sure that I don't harm anyone else's one shot at life




What is wrong with being open to believing that there is a greater force beyond what you see? Isn't there something in the Bible regarding people like you who don't believe because they don't have proof or cannot see it first hand? blessed are those who believe who don't see. Something like that. The exact words might be off because I am not literally into the Bible but I know the general message.

There's nothing wrong with believing in a greater force. Nothing at all. If it works for you, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.


I know many things exist beyond what man knows because new discoveries are happening. To believe anything else would mean that man is presently all knowing and there is no more that can be learned. Do you really believe that?

I don't believe man is all-knowing. To the contrary, I think there is much out there that we don't know or that remains to be discovered. I believe that there are some questions that we can never find answers to, like why we exist or what's the best life to lead, etc. What does this have to do with my non-religious beliefs?


Is it then possible there are other dimensions beyond what we know? Of course there is. to someone like you nothing exists until it is proven to exist. I say it still exists even though you may not have definite proof that it exists.

It is entirely possible that there are other dimensions. Why does that mean that I should believe in a supernatural deity that created the Earth in 7 days, hears out prayers, interferes in human actions, punishes sin, etc.?


Do you know what you will experience at death? Of course not because you have not experienced it yet.

I haven't experienced it and neither has anyone else that can comment on it. Again, why does this mean that I should believe in a supernatural deity?


Was the world not round before it was proven to be? if you lived backed before it was proven to be round you would be have believed it was flat. But others with greater insight believed what it really was and set sail to prove it.

Yes, science and exploration have revealed a lot things about the world to us. Again, why does this mean that I should believe in a supernatural deity?

[baseline bum]

einstein himself said that the universe is so complexly organized that there must be a greater force involved that we cannot fully comprehend...not to mention that a catholic priest proposed the big bang theory.

Einstein also didn't believe in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Great minds are often wrong. Aristotle is one of the most brilliant people to ever live, and his model of the universe was dead wrong.

[baseline bum]

This diagram shows why we were pretty certain the earth was spherical long before Columbus:

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/7583/shipsch9.png

[Mr. Peabody]

einstein himself said that the universe is so complexly organized that there must be a greater force involved that we cannot fully comprehend...not to mention that a catholic priest proposed the big bang theory.

Einstein often expressed awe about the questions that remained unanswered and the complexities of the universe.

Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.

- Albert Einstein, Response to atheist, Alfred Kerr (1927), quoted in The Diary of a Cosmopolitan (1971)

However, I don't think you should try and cast this in the light of traditional religion (i.e., prayer, afterlife, personal god, etc.) because he certainly didn't confuse the two.

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.

- Albert Einstein, The World As I See It

[Mr. Peabody]

This diagram shows why we were pretty certain the earth was spherical long before Columbus:

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/7583/shipsch9.png

Nice. Did you create this?

[The Reckoning]

well, after being exposed to science, ive come to believe that a metaphysical force must have shaped the planet, which could not have created and sustained itself for all these years. its incredible to look back on the way earth was formed and the processes it went through until we came along.

[The Reckoning]

im not saying that traditional religion is right. God was never meant to be thought of as a being in the sky but rather an intangible force that connects us all. note emerson's Oversoul. i personally think the bible is an ingenious metaphor that you can peel behind the text and find worthy. too many people take it for what it is, and its saddening.

[baseline bum]

Nice. Did you create this?

Yeah. I threw it together in Paint and compressed it in Photoshop. Man, I need to spring for Illustrator. :lol

[Mr. Peabody]

im not saying that traditional religion is right. God was never meant to be thought of as a being in the sky but rather an intangible force that connects us all. note emerson's Oversoul. i personally think the bible is an ingenious metaphor that you can peel behind the text and find worthy. too many people take it for what it is, and its saddening.

If that's the definition of god that we are using, then I would have to rethink my proclamation of atheism. I assumed we were talking about the Judeo-Christian god of the Bible.

[Creepn]

So, how do you explain stigmata and the crying virgin mary?

[baseline bum]

So, how do you explain stigmata and the crying virgin mary?

I explain that as bullshit, right there with the Virgin Mary grilled cheese sandwich.

[101A]

Einstein also didn't believe in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Great minds are often wrong. Aristotle is one of the most brilliant people to ever live, and his model of the universe was dead wrong.

You want evidence of a creator as you stated in a previous post, else you have no reason to believe.

I struggle (as many honest believers do) with this very question.

I actually have gone to one of Einstein's proclamations to help me think this is more than just wishful thinking, opiate, etc. etc...

That is that things ARE.

Einstein said, and it is widely understood that matter or energy can neither be created or destroyed. What is always has been, and always will be, in whatever form it takes at that moment.

Then, THAT begs the question; WHERE did it all come from? If it can't be created or destroyed, where did it come from in the first place?

Also watching NOVA this week; Einstein had his great revelation for E=MC2 by recognizing that "Light" (specifically the speed of it) was the key to everything - all existence; Going back to Genesis, right after forming the Heavens and the Earth God said "Let there be Light". Just a coincidence, I know, but an affirming one for one such as myself looking for reasons to believe, and not reasons not to.

[Mr. Peabody]

So, how do you explain stigmata and the crying virgin mary?

I don' think there's any way to account for those phenomena other than to admit that God does indeed exist.

[Creepn]

I explain that as bullshit, right there with the Virgin Mary grilled cheese sandwich.

So basically some guy stabs himself and gores himself until he makes holes and cries "Im the stigmata!"?

[Mr. Peabody]

Einstein said, and it is widely understood that matter or energy can neither be created or destroyed. What is always has been, and always will be, in whatever form it takes at that moment.

Then, THAT begs the question; WHERE did it all come from? If it can't be created or destroyed, where did it come from in the first place?



I don't know. It must be God. But then where did God come from? D'OH.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I don' think there's any way to account for those phenomena other than to admit that God does indeed exist.

Peabody walked right into that trap. pwnt.

[baseline bum]

So basically some guy stabbed himself and gored himself until he makes holes and cries "Im the stigmata!"?

That's one reasonable explanation.

[Oh, Gee!!]

That's one reasonable explanation.

In about 99.99% of all reported cases I bet. You--you're good, you!

[Mr. Peabody]

Peabody walked right into that trap. pwnt.

How could I possibly deny it? I've seen the crying Virgin Mary on TV, so I know it exists.

[Creepn]

That's one reasonable explanation.

hmm lol, sadly that is an acceptable answer.

[Mr. Peabody]

Man, if I only had some kind of reference book to help me explain all of these philosophical notions......

[The Reckoning]

ehh. einstein was jewish. emerson was a pastor. the judeo-christian god has actually been a very intellectually debated god, which has sprung denominations who sought to dumb-down the ideas that only confused the uneducated. if you look back into church history, islam was primarily created for this reason. these denominations have grown to the extent that they have influenced the publics opinion on what the judeo-christian god is -- a heartless monster that casts you into hell for all eternity

[Oh, Gee!!]

Man, if I only had some kind of reference book to help me explain all of these philosophical notions......

http://www.biblio.com/details.php?dcx=195318555&aid=frg#

btw--I bet you can get it cheaper at Barnes and Noble

[baseline bum]

You want evidence of a creator as you stated in a previous post, else you have no reason to believe.

I struggle (as many honest believers do) with this very question.

I actually have gone to one of Einstein's proclamations to help me think this is more than just wishful thinking, opiate, etc. etc...

That is that things ARE.

Einstein said, and it is widely understood that matter or energy can neither be created or destroyed. What is always has been, and always will be, in whatever form it takes at that moment.

Then, THAT begs the question; WHERE did it all come from? If it can't be created or destroyed, where did it come from in the first place?

Also watching NOVA this week; Einstein had his great revelation for E=MC2 by recognizing that "Light" (specifically the speed of it) was the key to everything - all existence; Going back to Genesis, right after forming the Heavens and the Earth God said "Let there be Light". Just a coincidence, I know, but an affirming one for one such as myself looking for reasons to believe, and not reasons not to.

Since all information is destroyed in a black hole, it's an unanswerable question to ask what happened before the Big Bang. Not a single piece of information could survive it, and hence anything from what we call before it can be nothing but conjecture. Of course, this is assuming there was a Big Bang.

I'd like to believe there is a God and an afterlife, but me simply wanting something to be true isn't enough for me to believe it is.

[101A]

I don't know. It must be God. But then where did God come from? D'OH.

The Great I Am

Always has been, always will be.

And, yes, I realize I'm discussing seriously while you are being, in you mind, intellectually superior. Meh.

[Creepn]

Who created God? God?

God came from God came from God came from God came from God.....

There must be an infinite number of Gods lol.

[baseline bum]

God came from God came from God came from God came from God.....

There must be an infinite number of Gods lol.

If God is infinite it's not a contradiction.

[101A]

Since all information is destroyed in a black hole,

It is my understanding that matter and energy are compressed in a black hole, not destroyed - eventually losing the mass via Hawking radiation.

[Creepn]

If God is infinite it's not a contradiction.

Well your saying that one God is infinite. Im saying maybe there is an infinite number of Gods?

Geez I just freakin confused myself. :lol Thats what you get for being a human.

[Mr. Peabody]

The Great I Am

Always has been, always will be.

And, yes, I realize I'm discussing seriously while you are being, in you mind, intellectually superior. Meh.

I am taking this matter seriously as well. The difference is that you are attempting to paint your the first part of your argument in logic (e.g., If matter and energy cannot be created, then....), but then you resort to faith to help you reach your conclusion (e.g., "Well God has always existed...."). How can I argue against that? I can't.

[The Reckoning]

if you have a God that created time (scientifically, the weaving of time and space) there could not have been a before because that is a reference to a time proceeding a time. so you cannot say "who created God" because that is infering that time existed before God created it, which is illogical.

[Creepn]

hmm, true. Good point.

[101A]

I am taking this matter seriously as well. The difference is that you are attempting to paint your the first part of your argument in logic (e.g., If matter and energy cannot be created, then....), but then you resort to faith to help you reach your conclusion (e.g., "Well God has always existed...."). How can I argue against that? I can't.

The "Doh!" not withstanding?

Either of us has faith, don't we? You have faith that all of this stuff is just here, and has always been here. IT just is. Or you have to have faith that some natural force which we do not yet understand caused it to be here, and that natural force has a natural reason for existing, etc...

Isn't that a leap of faith in and of itself?

[baseline bum]

It is my understanding that matter and energy are compressed in a black hole, not destroyed - eventually losing the mass via Hawking radiation.

It has been a couple of years since I have read A Brief History of Time (I'm not a physicist, so don't ask me to read all the latest quantum mechanics and cosmology texts :lol), but I'm pretty sure Hawking was clear on his explanation that a black hole warps information so that it can never again be extracted out.

[101A]

It has been a couple of years since I have read A Brief History of Time (I'm not a physicist, so don't ask me to read all the latest quantum mechanics and cosmology texts :lol), but I'm pretty sure Hawking was clear on his explanation that a black hole warps information so that it can never again be extracted out.

I am CLEAN out of my element; and we are both citing Hawking.:downspin:

Damn, and if I would have converted you, MY bible says I could adulterate and fornicate the rest of my life. Oh well, gonna work on Peabody some more. (convert him, and when I die I'm married to Heather Locklear in her prime)

[Mr. Peabody]

Damn, and if I would have converted you, MY bible says I could adulterate and fornicate the rest of my life. Oh well, gonna work on Peabody some more. (convert him, and when I die I'm married to Heather Locklear in her prime)

:lol If I had your Bible, I'd probably be as devout as anybody. Hell, I may have been a monk!:toast

[baseline bum]

:lol

My bible already allows me those priveledges

[The Reckoning]

:lol If I had your Bible, I'd probably be as devout as anybody. Hell, I may have been a monk!:toast

monks are actually some of the most enlightening men i have known. i studied at a Benedictine monestary for two years, and its incredible how logical they are on religious and even non religious matters. they've gotten over the urge to cling to material goods and have sex because one day our goods will be no more and our cocks will decompose and fall off. sex and pleasure are whats most on a persons mind during the course of a day. imagine if you were able to dispel thoughts of pleasure and use your brain for logic and contemplation. you would get a hell of a lot more done, thats for sure.

[baseline bum]

monks are actually some of the most enlightening men i have known. i studied at a Benedictine monestary for two years, and its incredible how logical they are on religious and even non religious matters. they've gotten over the urge to cling to material goods and have sex because one day our goods will be no more and our cocks will decompose and fall off. sex and pleasure are whats most on a persons mind during the course of a day. imagine if you were able to dispel thoughts of pleasure and use your brain for logic and contemplation. you would get a hell of a lot more done, thats for sure.

I think it's crazy to want to suppress pleasure.

[The Reckoning]

I think it's crazy to want to suppress pleasure.

the definition of crazy is an attempt to perform an act over and over again in hope of procreating a different result. the truth is...an orgasm is an orgasm -- and nothing more. you will always have the same orgasm. theres nothing beyond it.

[Mr. Dictionary]

Main Entry: 1cra·zy
Pronunciation: \ˈkrā-zē\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): cra·zi·er; cra·zi·est
Date: 1566
1 a: full of cracks or flaws : unsound <they were very crazy, wretched cabins — Charles Dickens> b: crooked , askew
2 a: mad , insane <yelling like a crazy man> b (1): impractical <a crazy plan> (2): erratic <crazy drivers> c: being out of the ordinary : unusual <a taste for crazy hats>
3 a: distracted with desire or excitement <a thrill-crazy mob> b: absurdly fond : infatuated <he's crazy about the girl> c: passionately preoccupied : obsessed <crazy about boats>
— cra·zi·ly \-zə-lē\ adverb
— cra·zi·ness \-zē-nəs\ noun
— like crazy : to an extreme degree <everyone dancing like crazy>

[101A]

you will always have the same orgasm. theres nothing beyond it.

Always, you mean like, right now, and forever more?

Can you show me how to do this? I need to meet those monks.

[The Reckoning]

youre like the mouse stepping on the lever over and over again so you can have the pleasure sector of your brain stimulated. the mouse would rather perform a stupid act to have the same pleasurable experience than even eat.

[101A]

youre like the mouse stepping on the lever over and over again so you can have the pleasure sector of your brain stimulated

And you are a pompous ass.

That "pleasure sector" is a gift from God. I experience it with my wife, as we are bound in God.

Oh, and, of course.

Fuck you.

[The Reckoning]

i never said marriage was a bad thing. the bond between a man and wife is holy because it promotes spiritual growth. i wasnt directly offending you...i was just referring to a documented psychological experiment

[The Reckoning]

lol and im done with the discussion. fuck you is a bit too critical.

[Mr. Peabody]

Oh, and, of course.

Fuck you.

:lmao

[baseline bum]

Anyone who tries to tell me busting a nut with a hot chick is overrated immediately loses all credibility.

[The Reckoning]

Anyone who tries to tell me busting a nut with a hot chick is overrated immediately loses all credibility.

thats what everyone told buddha, and i could go on and on about it...but since this is a political forum, ill stand down while i still can :lol

[hitmanyr2k]

I'm starting to believe they should just keep Palin off the mic altogether. They need to coach her better than this....

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/18/palins-transparency-proposal-already-exists-in-dc/


Palin's transparency proposal already exists in D.C.
Posted: 02:10 PM ET

CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (CNN) – Sarah Palin likes to tell voters around the country about how she “put the government checkbook online” in Alaska. On Thursday, Palin suggested she would take that same proposal to Washington.

“We’re going to do a few new things also,” she said at a rally in Cedar Rapids. “For instance, as Alaska’s governor, I put the government’s checkbook online so that people can see where their money’s going. We’ll bring that kind of transparency, that responsibility, and accountability back. We’re going to bring that back to D.C.”

There’s just one problem with proposing to put the federal checkbook online – somebody’s already done it. His name is Barack Obama.

In 2006 and 2007, Obama teamed up with Republican Sen. Tom Coburn to pass the Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act, also known as “Google for Government.” The act created a free, searchable web site – USASpending.gov — that discloses to the public all federal grants, contracts, loans and insurance payments.


In June of this year, Obama and Coburn introduced new Senate legislation to expand the information available online to include details on earmarks, competitive bidding, criminal activities, audit disputes and other government information.

Palin might also have noted that her running mate, John McCain, was an original co-sponsor of the 2006 transparency bill that became law.





Obama reaching across party lines to pass legislation? Say it ain't so :lol
You would think the McCain staff would know better and omit this from the Palin script. They're making her look as dumb as a rock lately.

[ElNono]

Some of what you mention here has nothing to do with religion - it's just plain immoral!

Says who? Your God?
You keep on fearing to lose that imaginary piece of heaven, I'll keep on enjoying life as it's meant to be enjoyed...


And the statement about divorce shows your ignorance because people who are christians get divorces - maybe it just takes more to get them to that point. And none of the churches I've been a member of condemned people who were divorced.

Really? I was raised a Roman Catholic, by far the most popular religion on this planet, and they'll definitely will not re-marry a divorced man or woman.
So tell me, where is it that I'm being ignorant exactly?
And don't even get me started with IVF or reproductive sciences...

[101A]

Says who? Your God?

Really? I was raised a Roman Catholic, by far the most popular religion on this planet, and they'll definitely will not re-marry a divorced man or woman.


Yeah, but they hand out annulments like Halloween candy; tomato, tamata

[LakeShow]

Posted Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:37 PM
Palin's Favorability Rating? Still Slipping...

Andrew Romano
Going down?

On Tuesday, I reported (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/16/palin-s-favorability-ratings-begin-to-falter.aspx) that Sarah Palin's favorability ratings, which peaked shortly after the Republican National Convention in St. Paul, were starting to slip. Between Sept. 13 and Sept. 17, the Alaska governor's unfavorables had climbed in the Diageo/Hotline poll from 30 percent to 37 percent; her favorables, meanwhile, had fallen from 52 percent to 47 percent. All in all, she'd gone from the most to least popular White House hopeful over the course of five short days.

The reason? "I suspect that we're starting to see Palin's considerable novelty wear off," I wrote. "Between now and Nov. 4, voters will stop seeing Palin as a fascinating story and starting taking her measure as an actual candidate for office. Some will approve; some won't... But it's hard to argue that the journey from intriguing new superstar to earthbound politician--a necessary part of the process--doesn't involve a loss of altitude. Just ask Barack Obama."

Still, I was careful to add that "we should hold off on drawing any hard and fast conclusions until more polling comes out." Well, now it has--and the stats confirm my initial hunch. According to the Research 2000 daily tracking poll--which is conducted for the liberal blog DailyKos by a nonpartisan firm (http://research2000.us/about/) that ranks as one of the most accurate in the field (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/pollster%20ratings)--Palin's favorability rating has been steadily declining since Sept. 11, when it topped out at 52 percent favorable / 35 percent unfavorable (+17) (http://www.dailykos.com/dailypoll/2008/9/11). On Monday, Palin's positives and negatives flatlined (http://www.dailykos.com/dailypoll/2008/9/16); by this morning, more respondents disapproved (46 percent) than approved (42 percent) (http://www.dailykos.com/dailypoll/2008/9/18) of the Republican vice-presidential nominee. Lest you discount a poll commissioned by a Democratic organization--and something tells me that many of you will (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/16/inbox-mccain-s-war-on-the-media-at-work.aspx)--the latest survey from CBS News and the New York Times shows a similar decline. On Sept. 8, Palin boasted a 44-22 favorable-unfavorable rating (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/sept08a_postRNC.pdf). Today, her split is 40-30 (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/09/18/us/20080918_POLLB_GRAPHIC.html). That's the exact same net swing of -12 points found in the Diageo/Hotline poll.

Whether Palin's slippage affects McCain's bid remains to be seen. But to deny that she's slipping is no longer a reality-based proposition.

[Shastafarian]

http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/failtrackingpoll_3.gif

[The Reckoning]

Really? I was raised a Roman Catholic, by far the most popular religion on this planet, and they'll definitely will not re-marry a divorced man or woman.
So tell me, where is it that I'm being ignorant exactly?
And don't even get me started with IVF or reproductive sciences...

not true. islam is now the most popular religion in the world (by population) and my father and step-mother are both roman catholic, and they were married into the catholic church.

[101A]

Really? I was raised a Roman Catholic, by far the most popular religion on this planet, and they'll definitely will not re-marry a divorced man or woman.
So tell me, where is it that I'm being ignorant exactly?


My paternal grandparents were married in a RC Church. They had two children. After 20 years they decided the marriage wasn't working out, so they got an anulment - essentially the Catholic church decreed that the "marriage" never existed. They EACH remarried different people in the Catholic Church; effectively making my father and aunt bastard children.

What the Catholic Church does is worse than granting divorces - and Paul (whose lead they are hopelessly trying to follow with this) would not be pleased.

[ElNono]

My paternal grandparents were married in a RC Church. They had two children. After 20 years they decided the marriage wasn't working out, so they got an anulment - essentially the Catholic church decreed that the "marriage" never existed. They EACH remarried different people in the Catholic Church; effectively making my father and aunt bastard children.

What the Catholic Church does is worse than granting divorces - and Paul (whose lead they are hopelessly trying to follow with this) would not be pleased.

Annulment is an option, but the Church rarely grants them. Your grandparents certainly were lucky. I don't have any more recent numbers, but in 2002, out of 1280 cases the church studied, only 62 got annulled. That's a whooping 5.2%. (Info from a 2004 article in Spanish, link here (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2004/01/29/i-02202.htm))

So, for the other 94.8% of unhappy Christian couples, re-marrying is an impossibility now.

[ElNono]

not true. islam is now the most popular religion in the world (by population) and my father and step-mother are both roman catholic, and they were married into the catholic church.

I was talking within the realm of Christianity. Some of the 'immoral' things I mentioned are actually not considered a 'sin' under Islam.

[The Reckoning]

http://www.scholarofthehouse.org/islamicsexlaws.html

:smokin
if getting stoned to death involves the burning bush, i'm converting!

[baseline bum]

Really? I was raised a Roman Catholic, by far the most popular religion on this planet, and they'll definitely will not re-marry a divorced man or woman.
So tell me, where is it that I'm being ignorant exactly?
And don't even get me started with IVF or reproductive sciences...

This is false. My father was divorced young and then married my mother as a Roman Catholic in a Roman Catholic church with a Roman Catholic priest doing the ceremony.

[The Reckoning]

i think it has alot to do with the community that the anullment is in. i could see the church being harsher in areas like spain, but america no doubt has a very liberal catholic church presence

[velik_m]

if you have a God that created time (scientifically, the weaving of time and space) there could not have been a before because that is a reference to a time proceeding a time. so you cannot say "who created God" because that is infering that time existed before God created it, which is illogical.

But that would mean that there was no god before the beginning of time. They were both created at the same time - perhaps in some kind of big bang?

[The Reckoning]

perhaps. but if God is the master of time, it could not control Him or influence Him, which is a concept wayyy beyond my comprehension. i mean, if time is considered an element of some sorts, there could be an infinite array of possible elements that we have no way of conceiving, since we havent experienced them yet...