So who won tonight's debate....?

[Mr. Peabody]

We could probably do this right now and get the same responses we'll get tomorrow, so why wait?

[romad_20]

"My wife is common street trash."

[Mr. Peabody]

"My wife is common street trash."

:lol
Nice catch on the reference.

[ChumpDumper]

McCain's campaign already said he won, and the bailout situation has been resolved because he wouldn't leave Washington until it was.

[Mr. Peabody]

McCain's campaign already said he won, and the bailout situation has been resolved because he wouldn't leave Washington until it was.

McCain wins just by being there.

He wasn't expected to even show up, so how high can expectations really be for him?

It's like when you hear a rumor that Santana may cancel the concert you have tickets for, but then he doesn't and no matter how he played, you're happy he didn't cancel.

[clambake]

fox says obama's gonna get creamed tonight. interesting they said "creamed".

[romad_20]

Is this at a table where they sit close to one another or podium? I think McCain might punch Obama if they are close, he looked super pissed at the Whitehouse meeting.

I think the crowd will boo McCain a couple of times and Obama will keep saying the same stuff he's been saying. Nothing ground breaking.

[baseline bum]

I expect both to hit home runs.

[Mr. Peabody]

Is this at a table where they sit close to one another or podium? I think McCain might punch Obama if they are close, he looked super pissed at the Whitehouse meeting.

I think the crowd will boo McCain a couple of times and Obama will keep saying the same stuff he's been saying. Nothing ground breaking.

They are standing at podiums that are about 10-15 feet apart.

I'm wondering whether they have a deal in place to account for the height discrepancy between the two. During the Bush-Kerry debates, as part of the debate agreements, the feeds had to make them appear equal size on the split screens.

[clambake]

napoleon syndrome?

[Mr. Peabody]

I thought Lehrer did a good job.

[lebomb]

Obama and it was not close.............

[2Blonde]

I think Obama won because he really talked about changing things tonight and kept on course. McCain, IMO, just gave us more of the same & why he's always thinks he's right b/c he's been around too effin' long.

They both did okay but my vote for the debate goes to Obama.

[Shelly]

I think it was close with a slight edge to McCain

[PixelPusher]

So who won tonight's debate....?
Cleary, the winner tonight was the American people.
























(have I induced mass vomiting yet?)

[baseline bum]

I think McCain won overall, but Obama killed him on Iraq. This election definitely isn't over yet.

[Buddy Holly]

So who won?

Every channel that didn't have debate coverage.

[baseline bum]

So who won?

Every channel that didn't have debate coverage.

I doubt it. I'm sure this debate got huge ratings. This is one of the most followed elections in the history of this country.

[Shastafarian]

I was right. I voted for Lehrer.

[wireonfire]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26906945?GT1=43001

49% vs 37% Obama

[spurster]

Cool poll. I picked all of them. I think they all looked better after than before and may God have mercy on our souls.

[baseline bum]

How can anyone vote the last choice? This wasn't Bush/Gore by any stretch.

[Mr. Peabody]

How can anyone vote the last choice? This wasn't Bush/Gore by any stretch.

I voted before the debate and didn't want to vote for either candidate before the debate took place. Plus, I thought the last option was kind of funny.

[ElNono]

This Poll needs one more option: "None of the above". I would have voted for that.

[Shelly]

I voted for the last just because I starting zoning out in the end.

[Mr. Peabody]

This Poll needs one more option: "None of the above". I would have voted for that.

Well, the last option was supposed to be my "none of the above, " but it is a dismissive option for a good debate.

[Spurminator]

Depends on the issue...

Economy: Push

Iraq: McCain

Afghanistan: Obama

Russia: McCain

9/11: Obama

Tiebreaker - Stage Presence. (Who looked more Presidential?) I give this to McCain

McCain did a great job of name dropping and emphasizing his experience. I thought the "Obama just doesn't get it" theme was well utilized until the last few segments where I thought it was probably overutilized.

I guess by the scorecard it would go to McCain but I think they both had a good showing.

[Spurminator]

Shit, I forgot Iran... I give that to Obama. I'm sorry but I'm completely open to face to face no precondition meetings as a last resort before bombing the shit out of a country.

[2centsworth]

good civil debate. McCain held his own on the economy and won by a big margin on defense. I was shocked that McCain would do this well and would speak that passionately.

My opinion of Obama went up though. He's a cool cat.

[dg7md]

How did McCain look presidential? He didn't make eye contact at all, kept staring down. Obama locked eyes on the camera and McCain both, real important a president can stand off like that.

[2centsworth]

Shit, I forgot Iran... I give that to Obama. I'm sorry but I'm completely open to face to face no precondition meetings as a last resort before bombing the shit out of a country.

IRAN: we want to kill all jews
US: No you're not

end of discussion. that was good.

[Spurminator]

How did McCain look presidential? He didn't make eye contact at all, kept staring down. Obama locked eyes on the camera and McCain both, real important a president can stand off like that.

I liked that Obama looked directly at McCain but I think McCain's giving Obama the cold shoulder was a debate strategy. When McCain was speaking he was looking at Lehrer.

[Shastafarian]

IRAN: we want to kill all jews
US: No you're not

end of discussion. that was good.

It would've been good has it not been hyperbole. McCain was acting like a message board poster on that one.

[Spurminator]

IRAN: we want to kill all jews
US: No you're not

end of discussion. that was good.

That was funny, but even that dialogue is preferable to none at all before war.

[Spurtacus]

Obama

[ChumpDumper]

IRAN: we want to kill all jews
US: No you're not

end of discussion. that was good.You think they would have stared with the 10,000 or so Jews that live in Iran.

[TheMadHatter]

Who won? Nobody.

Who came away doing what they needed to do? Obama.

McCain needed a game changer. He didn't get it. With Palin coming up it could all be over quick.

[Spurtacus]

IRAN: we want to kill all jews
US: No you're not

end of discussion. that was good.

McCain wants to kill Iranians by giving them cigs.

Seriously, the Israel comment by Ahmadinejad is just fucking politics. Yes, politics exists in the Middle East. Nothing will ever happen. Turn your eyes away from Fox noise and you might go one day not fearing for your life.

[ploto]

I think the majority of people decide mostly based upon their feel for the debate and not as much the contents. (see Bush- Gore) I believe the majority will go with Obama because McCain came across as condescending and dismissive. I do not think that tactic worked of trying to act as if Obama did not know what he was talking about when he had just very clearly and intelligently explained his position. I also believe that McCain's unwillingness to look at Obama and looking down so much were bad.

In terms of the big picture, McCain needed a decisive victory and at best he got a tie in the debate that was supposed to be to his strength.

In High Def- McCain looked bad, too. The layers of caked on make-up were too much. It almost looked like a mask.

I think it is interesting that some men would call McCain presidential when I did not think he looked that way at all. It confirmed for me that his temperament is not good for the job. I prefer a quiet strength and I think a lot of other women do, too.

[cool hand]

I think Obama won because he really talked about changing things tonight and kept on course. McCain, IMO, just gave us more of the same & why he's always thinks he's right b/c he's been around too effin' long.

They both did okay but my vote for the debate goes to Obama.

yeah, he's change we can believe in.......we are going communist. believe it.

[TheMadHatter]

yeah, he's change we can believe in.......we are going communist. believe it.

let's fight the power. bring your guns, join me. we'll bring washington down.

[boutons_]

If this was supposed to be McWorse's debate because of foreign policy, it certainly wasn't McWorse domination. For that alone, it was a loss for McOldFart.

Quite the contrary, the majority of polls, focus groups, etc are saying not only did HUSSEIN hold his own, but that he won.

McSicko's total refusal, chickenshit?, to look at HUSSEIN was weird, contrived.

McWorse is totally wooden, unnatural, no style, stringing run-on, often irrelevant shit together, phrase by phrase, as it pops into his feeble brain, rather than "speaking in paragraphs" with a hierarchy of ideas supporting his points.

"you're wrong" is weak. The point is to show why the other is wrong, not simly declare it so.

[SnakeBoy]

Seriously, the Israel comment by Ahmadinejad is just fucking politics. Yes, politics exists in the Middle East. Nothing will ever happen. Turn your eyes away from Fox noise and you might go one day not fearing for your life.

Yes, there are no serious threats in the world. It's just a peaceful place. Iran would never hurt Israel, they're just joking around. Kinda like Osama was just kidding in the 90's when he declared war on the US.

[pooh]

I think it was a draw in my opinion, each threw punches but couldn't put the other away. Hopefully they'll do that on the next debate.

[ChumpDumper]

I think it was a draw in my opinion, each threw punches but couldn't put the other away. Hopefully they'll do that on the next debate.Hopefully, you'll tell us how you became a Pacer fan.

[ploto]

Hopefully, you'll tell us how you became a Pacer fan.

Pooh's a long time Pacers fan.

[ChumpDumper]

Pooh's a long time Pacers fan.Not that long.

[sook]

VERY CLOSE


I'm going to give the edge to obama, didn't like the way mccain kept coming of in a condescending attitude.

[Xylus]

As a supporter of neither of these candidates, I thought Obama came off as slightly more presidential. It's tough for me to judge who won the foreign policy debate when I disagree with both.

[bobbyjoe]

I liked that Obama looked directly at McCain but I think McCain's giving Obama the cold shoulder was a debate strategy. When McCain was speaking he was looking at Lehrer.

Independents and lightly committed leaners don't like condescending and arrogant non-verbal communication in debates.

See Bush-Gore 2000 when Gore's arrogance cost him.

McCain preaches about reaching across the aisle, but his condescending demeanor today hardly conveyed a man who'll be successful to that end.

He looked like a snob by refusing to ever make contact with Obama and repeatedly sayinb "Obama just doesnt understand, is naive, etc".

A few times might have been effective. McCain went way overboard on this.

[Spurminator]

It was condescending, but I also think it will work better for McCain than it did for Gore. With Bush and Gore, both were perceived to be on a pretty level playing field, so for one of them to act like the other one didn't belong there didn't make a lot of sense.

With Obama, that's a key obstacle he has to face... Whether he's qualified for this race. McCain's cold shoulder suggested Obama didn't even belng on the same stage with him. That's not going to work on independents who feel confident in Obama's qualifications for President but it could have some effect on those independents who have some hesitation about voting for someone with Obama's tenure in Washington.

We'll see.

[sook]

It was condescending, but I also think it will work better for McCain than it did for Gore. With Bush and Gore, both were perceived to be on a pretty level playing field, so for one of them to act like the other one didn't belong there didn't make a lot of sense.

With Obama, that's a key obstacle he has to face... Whether he's qualified for this race. McCain's cold shoulder suggested Obama didn't even belng on the same stage with him. That's not going to work on independents who feel confident in Obama's qualifications for President but it could have some effect on those independents who have some hesitation about voting for someone with Obama's tenure in Washington.

We'll see.
As an independent i can tell you for sure that being arrogant as the guy ^ put it really doesn't resonate among us.:nope

[timvp]

I wasn't too impressed with either one. I think overall McCain won ... but this was on his battleground so he had to win to keep the race competitive. McCain came off condescending when he avoided talking or looking at Obama. But I thought Obama gained some condescending points for calling him "John" instead of Senator McCain for most of the first half of the debate.

I don't think I'll get many to agree but I think W would wipe the floor with either of them in a debate. W has that folksy, everyman debate quality about him that is almost unbeatable in a presidential debate. With McCain you can tell he's a career politician and you can tell Obama is a lawyer. Put W against either one and he'd stumble, mumble and awkward laugh his way to a debate win.

[T Park]

I wasn't too impressed with either one. I think overall McCain won ... but this was on his battleground so he had to win to keep the race competitive. McCain came off condescending when he avoided talking or looking at Obama. But I thought Obama gained some condescending points for calling him "John" instead of Senator McCain for most of the first half of the debate.

I don't think I'll get many to agree but I think W would wipe the floor with either of them in a debate. W has that folksy, everyman debate quality about him that is almost unbeatable in a presidential debate. With McCain you can tell he's a career politician and you can tell Obama is a lawyer. Put W against either one and he'd stumble, mumble and awkward laugh his way to a debate win.



From what I can see, maybe I'm wrong, I thought Obama came off better.

I guess I'm in the minority in that camp.


If W didn't have all the baggage with him? I agree, W was a freaking debating master. Unreal with how kinda dumb he is too.

[TheMadHatter]

From what I can see, maybe I'm wrong, I thought Obama came off better.

I guess I'm in the minority in that camp.


If W didn't have all the baggage with him? I agree, W was a freaking debating master. Unreal with how kinda dumb he is too.

It's unreal how kinda dumb you are for asserting that W was even remotely competent as a debater. You are a Texan though......go figure.

The best debater I've ever seen is Bill Clinton. Watch and learn.

7-W4GWjN2kg

7iXqKfZIGNg

[sook]

fuck it....RON PAUL is the answer pplzQ!

[baseline bum]

It's unreal how kinda dumb you are for asserting that W was even remotely competent as a debater. You are a Texan though......go figure.

The best debater I've ever seen is Bill Clinton. Watch and learn.

7-W4GWjN2kg

7iXqKfZIGNg

Perot came off best in that first video.

[T Park]

:lol

Perot before he dropped out then got back in was NOT bad.

Still a whacko though.

[T Park]

It's unreal how kinda dumb you are for asserting that W was even remotely competent as a debater. You are a Texan though......go figure.

The best debater I've ever seen is Bill Clinton. Watch and learn.

7-W4GWjN2kg

7iXqKfZIGNg



Lose the dickhead attitude please.

[Bigzax]

i haven't decided who to vote for yet...

i really liked alot of what barrack had to say...i just don't believe him yet though...

john, i believe him, and i have faith in his experience...but i could see barrack's point much more clearly on things...

i liked obama saying we're going to take care of business in pakistan...

anyhow, it came off as roses vs reality to me...

i look forward to the next debate...

i'll completely dismiss the vp debate as i only care about palin's rear view and i don't give a shit about vp's...

God willing...may the best man for the country win...:tu

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This debate was a total draw. Not one undecided voter has now decided because of it, i dont care what you see on tv. McCain fleshed out his hard hitting points better than Barack, if only because Barack has no ability to talk in a natural free-flowing cadence, but has still yet to shake off his way of talking that makes every person slightly to the right view him as a total blubbering idiot. Barack, on the other hand, did try to pull a Mr. Republican by mentioning Al Qaeda almost as many times as McCain mentioned Reagan (you fucking pieces of shit, yes you reading this, read some history, you fucking pieces of shit), but i think it fell short because of his inability to talk smoothly.

I say if it was not a draw, McCain won verrrrrry slightly, but won is actually a bad word to use, i'd say McCain had a slight edge. However, this was supposed to be a debate that McCain would chodebload Barack at, being so incredibly old and experienced. Now we will move onto the good stuff, and Barack should do much better.

I think Jim Lerher was an awesome moderator, but I felt sorry for him because he was so excited he seemed to actually think he'd be able to make the candidates answer a question directly. I live have listened to Jim's show on KERA many times, he's an awesome journalist, IMO, and it was cool to see him work the debate. He was definitely the best moderator I've seen this entire cycle of elections. Not like those douche ass bastards on CNN, etc.

Party on, Wayne.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

IRAN: we want to kill all jews
US: No you're not

end of discussion. that was good.



Read a fucking book, the president of Iran says those things, and he is a figurehead that is working his own public for votes. Barack touched on this, but I am led to believe Alex Jones is right when I see McCain working all the generic Republican Talking Points and Barack chooses to reply to him within the paradigm we are all familiar with.

Barack had like FIVE opportunities to crush McCain, but he did not.
How you ask? By looking him in the eye and asking him, "Senator McCain, do you truly believe that the military victories alone will qualify the Iraq situation as a victory?"
Because it does not. Patreus himself fucking said this. This was the most obvious fucking thing Barack could have said right from the start of their bull shit exchange about Iraq. But Barack did not even come close to saying this.

McCain was the only one who mentioned Iraq as being a future "reliable ally" and that is complete and total bull shit 2002 style neocon tactics. Barack did not even tippy toe and confront this bull shit.

When I try to be a caring voter in my system, I try to convince myself that there is a fundamental difference between democrat and republican. I try to convince myself that people, who have been shouting that these two candidates are different arms of the same beast (like Alex Jones) are total tin foil hat wearing douchebags. But what did we see tonight?

I have never been more convinced that this is the case. The entire ebb and flow of the conversation was within the Republican paradigm of political situation abroad, and the fact that Barack only challenged him within this paradigm and repeatedly failed to challenge him on the obvious shortcomings of his views leads me to believe that this entire election is rigged for McCain.

Before any of you on the right or the left start lynching me, ANSWER ME THIS:

Why did Barack not mention political victory in Iraq as being the true benchmark for success? Why???? This is something a fucking third grader could understand if they have been following the situation, but it was non existent in this debate.

I have never been more dissatisfied with direction my country is heading in, and I am sure many more are feeling the way I am.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I don't think I'll get many to agree but I think W would wipe the floor with either of them in a debate. W has that folksy, everyman debate quality about him that is almost unbeatable in a presidential debate. With McCain you can tell he's a career politician and you can tell Obama is a lawyer. Put W against either one and he'd stumble, mumble and awkward laugh his way to a debate win.

I totally agree, but only because of the way they talk. McCain is vanilla, Obama talks in fucking chunks like he's recalling what he's supposed to say, and W sounds like that idiot down the street that you watch a football game with sometimes.

[Anti.Hero]

Wow yeah. He would have pwnt McCain off the stage with a statement like that. Seriously.

I'm not being sarcastic this post.

[whottt]

I wasn't too impressed with either one. I think overall McCain won ... but this was on his battleground so he had to win to keep the race competitive. McCain came off condescending when he avoided talking or looking at Obama. But I thought Obama gained some condescending points for calling him "John" instead of Senator McCain for most of the first half of the debate.


Everyone says it was McCain's battleground but he had to deal with being tied to the Bush Admin and supporting the Iraq War.

Being tied to the Bush Admin is a huge obstacle to work around.

That's what Obama did that was successful in this debate: tied McCain to Bush every single chance he got. I was surprised McCain went ahead and threw W under the bus.

The table is set for McCain to separate himself from the Bush admin completely though...





I don't think I'll get many to agree but I think W would wipe the floor with either of them in a debate. W has that folksy, everyman debate quality about him that is almost unbeatable in a presidential debate.

Couldn't disagree more...

#1. IIRC the polls also showed W lost every debate against Kerry.

#2. W is extremely unlikeable IMO...what he does well is play on stereotypes to make liberals looks like pussies.







With McCain you can tell he's a career politician and you can tell Obama is a lawyer. Put W against either one and he'd stumble, mumble and awkward laugh his way to a debate win.


I don't think so...I think W would lose a debate against any Presidential Candidate in history other than an overconfident Al Gore.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It's all fucking nonsense, neither McCain nor Obama directly said yes or no about supporting that bull shit bailout bill, and Jim asked them directly 3 times in a row. I felt sorry for Jim, but at least he tried.

I'm not that smart, never pretended to be, and there are voters, especially on this forum that are smarter than me...so honestly, WHAT THE FUCK are we supposed to believe after this debate other than either

a) Obama's advisors are so fucking stupid or cowardly they advise him not to counter McCain's hackneyed republican talking points with an obvious truth

or

b) This shit is a big fucking charade.

I was so pissed after watching this abortion

Apply Ockham's razor....iare there less barriers to believing that EVERY EDUCATED DAesque democract advising Obama, would all simultaneously agree to tell him not to use the obvious counter to "Military victory = victory" or is it easier to believe that these people are educated, and chose to tell Obama not to use this line of counterattack.

QUESTION.

[whottt]

It's all fucking nonsense, neither McCain nor Obama directly said yes or no about supporting that bull shit bailout bill, and Jim asked them directly 3 times in a row. I felt sorry for Jim, but at least he tried.

I'm not that smart, never pretended to be, and there are voters, especially on this forum that are smarter than me...so honestly, WHAT THE FUCK are we supposed to believe after this debate other than either

a) Obama's advisors are so fucking stupid or cowardly they advise him not to counter McCain's hackneyed republican talking points with an obvious truth

or

b) This shit is a big fucking charade.

I was so pissed after watching this abortion

Apply Ockham's razor....iare there less barriers to believing that EVERY EDUCATED DAesque democract advising Obama, would all simultaneously agree to tell him not to use the obvious counter to "Military victory = victory" or is it easier to believe that these people are educated, and chose to tell Obama not to use this line of counterattack.

QUESTION.



Actually, McCain pretty much answered yes(although he did it quietly) while Obama never directly answered the question IIRC....he talked about his plan.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Actually, McCain pretty much answered yes(although he did it quietly) while Obama never directly answered the question IIRC....he talked about his plan.

I could actually care less, I'm more concerned with this obvious hole in the debate about Iraq, that CNN, FNC, MSNBC, et. al, are refusing to talk about.

[Findog]

According to CNN and CBS News, undecideds think Obama won. Only audience that matters.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This is a bull shit election. Now I am only pissed off that that loose cunt Palin is actually going to be our president if McCain kicks the bucket. I know I've joked about this before, but I am serious now. We really are fucked if McCain dies. Now, as an American, my entire concern is that McCain does not die while he is in office.

[baseline bum]

I don't think I'll get many to agree but I think W would wipe the floor with either of them in a debate. W has that folksy, everyman debate quality about him that is almost unbeatable in a presidential debate. With McCain you can tell he's a career politician and you can tell Obama is a lawyer. Put W against either one and he'd stumble, mumble and awkward laugh his way to a debate win.

I completely disagree, but then again I would never want an average man to run the nation.

[whottt]

Then there are a bunch of stupid undecideds out there...Obama didn't know shit. Half the time he copied McCain's answer and the other times McCain showed a much more detailed insight into what is actually going on in Iraq, Afhganistan and Pakistan, not to mention Georgia...and exposed Obama as pretending to be an expert on places he's never actually been.

@#%#$ I never realized how easily Americans can be suckered by a slick talking laywer that never actually answers any damn questions.



PS: Anyone that think Achmajenna asshole can be negotiated with is an idiot....I don't give a shit if this guy agrees to every Pre-condition you want...he'll be lying. This dude is Yassir Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Castro...

Any attempt to at a civil discourse with this guy is going to be taken as a sign of weakness and fear.


Could you have negotiated with Hitler?

No...


This guy is further gone than Hitler ever was.

[Findog]

Ahmanijedad is not the supreme ruler of Iran...Khamanei is. Obama made that point very well.

[TheMadHatter]

If you think Obama or McCain is going into this debate trying to actually "win" the debate you're a fool. That's not the point of these debates anymore. It's all about shoring up your weaknesses amongst the voters you are seeking to get. For Obama this was about him looking Presidential and less of a risk to Independent voters. That's why he didn't make so much of an effort to dismantle McCain in this debate.

He certainly could have though if he chose to.

[TheMadHatter]

Then there are a bunch of stupid undecideds out there...Obama didn't know shit. Half the time he copied McCain's answer and the other times McCain showed a much more detailed insight into what is actually going on in Iraq, Afhganistan and Pakistan, not to mention Georgia...and exposed Obama as pretending to be an expert on places he's never actually been.

@#%#$ I never realized how easily Americans can be suckered by a slick talking laywer that never actually answers any damn questions.



PS: Anyone that think Achmajenna asshole can be negotiated with is an idiot....I don't give a shit if this guy agrees to every Pre-condition you want...he'll be lying. This dude is Yassir Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Castro...

Any attempt to at a civil discourse with this guy is going to be taken as a sign of weakness and fear.


Could you have negotiated with Hitler?

No...


This guy is further gone than Hitler ever was.

They couldn't pay me to write a more retarded analysis.

[Findog]

If you think Obama or McCain is going into this debate trying to actually "win" the debate you're a fool. That's not the point of these debates anymore. It's all about shoring up your weaknesses amongst the voters you are seeking to get. For Obama this was about him looking Presidential and less of a risk to Independent voters. That's why he didn't make so much of an effort to dismantle McCain in this debate.

He certainly could have though if he chose to.

Exactly. Obama needs to show he can be Commander in Chief. McCain needs to show he can connect with the middle class. Obama did a great job. McCain not so much. Now McCain certainly made some good points, and he really scored with that Ahmaninjedad (damn can't spell his name for shit) jab, but Obama knew it's not about winning over the pundits, it's shoring up his weaknesses.

[whottt]

Ahmanijedad is not the supreme ruler of Iran...Khamanei is. Obama made that point very well.

:lol I know...I thought that was hilarious, he brought it up as if he was saying that was the guy we should try to negotiate with...that guy is even worse.

[TheMadHatter]

In terms of the debate, McCain probably won IMHO. But clearly based on the polling done after the debate he didn't win amongst Independents. This is the crucial point, Independents and swing voters aren't looking at the debates the same way we are.

[TheMadHatter]

:lol I know...I thought that was hilarious, he brougth it up as if he was saying that was the guy we should try to negotiate with...that guy is even worse.

Bomb BOmb BOmb Bomb BOmb Iran!!!!

[Findog]

:lol I know...I thought that was hilarious, he brought it up as if he was saying that was the guy we should try to negotiate with...that guy is even worse.

People talk about Ahmanijaded so much, it would be like Iranians talking about Nancy Pelosi.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Then there are a bunch of stupid undecideds out there...Obama didn't know shit. Half the time he copied McCain's answer and the other times McCain showed a much more detailed insight into what is actually going on in Iraq, Afhganistan and Pakistan, not to mention Georgia...and exposed Obama as pretending to be an expert on places he's never actually been.

@#%#$ I never realized how easily Americans can be suckered by a slick talking laywer that never actually answers any damn questions.



PS: Anyone that think Achmajenna asshole can be negotiated with is an idiot....I don't give a shit if this guy agrees to every Pre-condition you want...he'll be lying. This dude is Yassir Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Castro...

Any attempt to at a civil discourse with this guy is going to be taken as a sign of weakness and fear.


Could you have negotiated with Hitler?

No...


This guy is further gone than Hitler ever was.

I never would have thought that a loose republican vagina would have turned whottt so far that he would compare ahmedinijad with hitler, then intimate that ahmedinijad is worse.
Never.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

:lol I know...I thought that was hilarious, he brought it up as if he was saying that was the guy we should try to negotiate with...that guy is even worse.

Khomeni has actually said via his press relations man (the ONLY man who ever talks for him in any news outlet) that he is open to working with americans, something Ahmedinijad has never even come close to saying.

[T Park]

I never would have thought that a loose republican vagina would have turned whottt so far that he would compare ahmedinijad with hitler, then intimate that ahmedinijad is worse.
Never.

So Pres Ahmedinijad's comments about wanting to whipe Israel off the face of the earth wasn't bad?

[Findog]

So Pres Ahmedinijad's comments about wanting to whipe Israel off the face of the earth wasn't bad?

The Iranians say that shit for domestic consumption. It's like a red meat speech at a political convention, denouncing the "evil Zionist entity" always plays well at home. The Iranians ARE rational, they'll never attacK Israel with nukes.

[whottt]

This is a bull shit election. Now I am only pissed off that that loose cunt Palin is actually going to be our president if McCain kicks the bucket. I know I've joked about this before, but I am serious now. We really are fucked if McCain dies. Now, as an American, my entire concern is that McCain does not die while he is in office.


See I get the exact oppostite vibe..I get the feeling that any foreign leader is going to be in so far over their heads against Palin that it won't even be funny. She is totally ruthless against her enemies, in a way men can't even conceive of.

[Findog]

See I get the exact oppostite vibe..I get the feeling that any foreign leader is going to be in so far over their heads against Palin that it won't even be funny. She is totally ruthless against her enemies, in a way men can't even conceive of.

Palin vs. Putin is like the Spurs versus Lincoln High School

[baseline bum]

Palin vs. Putin is like the Spurs versus Lincoln High School

What are you talking about? Do you seriously think Putin would try to paint her into a corner or twist her words as badly as Charlie Gibson or Katie Couric?

[whottt]

Khomeni has actually said via his press relations man (the ONLY man who ever talks for him in any news outlet) that he is open to working with americans, something Ahmedinijad has never even come close to saying.

Asshole is insane...it's no act with that guy. That guy is a terrorist...in the truest sense of the word.

Khameni is worse...he is never going to give up his throne for any sort of Democratic reform, and he is never going to move away from fundamentalist Islam. Iran will continue to be an oppressive shithole as long as he is in power.

He's the reason Khatami never produced any positives with the US.

He's the reason asshole is in power.

We will never gain anything by negotiating with these guys. We will never gain a single thing in negotiations with them. Anyone that says we will is naive...including McCain.

They both need to be dead. ASAP.

[Findog]

What are you talking about? Do you seriously think Putin would try to paint her into a corner or twist her words as badly as Charlie Gibson or Katie Couric?

It was in response to whottt's assertion that Palin would totally dominate foreign leaders. She can't even handle questions from hack journalists. Putin would run circles around her

[whottt]

What are you talking about? Do you seriously think Putin would try to paint her into a corner or twist her words as badly as Charlie Gibson or Katie Couric?

Attempting to get elected with the media undermining you and negotiating with foreign leaders are two entirely different things.

Not the same thing at all...

Palin is much more ruthless than Putin is...you just don't see it....and neither will Putin.

[whottt]

It was in response to whottt's assertion that Palin would totally dominate foreign leaders. She can't even handle questions from hack journalists. Putin would run circles around her

It's not the same thing...not the same game. It's not the same goals, not the same payoff, not the same penalties.

[Findog]

whottt has totally jumped the shark on Palin.

[whottt]

Findog thinks winning the popular vote is the same thing as foreign policy.

[Findog]

Findog thinks winning the popular vote is the same thing as foreign policy.

I tremble for my country at the thought of Palin conducting high-level diplomatic discussions with foreign leaders. Not so with Obama.

[whottt]

I tremble for my country at the thought of Palin conducting high-level diplomatic discussions with foreign leaders. Not so with Obama.


You also begin every year thinking the Mavs will win a title and thought Jason Kidd for Devin Harris was a positive.


Trust me...you are far more detatched from reality than I am.

[Findog]

You also begin every year thinking the Mavs will win a title and thought Jason Kidd for Devin Harris was a positive.


Trust me...you are far more detatched from reality than I am.

Mavs will get the sixth seed and lose in the first round again this year. Go back to the archives and see what I said about the Kidd trade up until it publicly fell apart. I did not support it. The Mavs season after the Kidd trade played out exactly the way I said it would.

[whottt]

Mavs will get the sixth seed and lose in the first round again this year. Go back to the archives and see what I said about the Kidd trade up until it publicly fell apart. I did not support it.


I don't need to look...I argued with you about it. I know what you said, and I know what I said.

[Findog]

I don't need to look...I argued with you about it. I know what you said, and I know what I said.

You argued that DeSagana Diop was the second coming of Bill Russell and Devin Harris was the new Oscar Robertson, and they provided crucial matchup advantages against the Spurs. I wouldn't disagree with the latter half of that statement. I was firmly against the Kidd trade. When it publicly fell apart, I felt it had to go through for the purpose of team morale. After that, being a Mavs fan, I was rooting for the team to make lemonade out of lemons.

[whottt]

ahmedinijad with hitler, then intimate that ahmedinijad is worse.
Never.


Hmmm...in current Iran:


They torture people.
They kill them for changing religions.
They kill them for being gay.
They kill them for speaking out.
They kill them for being raped.
They kill them for commiting adultry.

They execute children.


They did it even when they had a guy that was an extreme liberal by their standards.


I want you to tell me what Hitler would do that would shock them?

[Findog]

Hmmm...in current Iran:


They torture people.


So do we.

[whottt]

So do we.

You just keep telling yourself that.

You just keep thinking we can negotiate with the "hardline" leaders of a society that executes children even when it's not hardline.

If they'll kill their own children...you think they gonna sit around and sing Kumbaya with us? And it becomes more acceptable and routine, the longer they stay in power.

[Shastafarian]

Attempting to get elected with the media undermining you and negotiating with foreign leaders are two entirely different things.

Not the same thing at all...

Palin is much more ruthless than Putin is...you just don't see it....and neither will Putin.

I sure as shit hope not considering Putin has had rivals and even news journalists killed.


Hmmm...in current Iran:


They torture people.
They kill them for changing religions.
They kill them for being gay.
They kill them for speaking out.
They kill them for being raped.
They kill them for commiting adultry.

They execute children.


They did it even when they had a guy that was an extreme liberal by their standards.


I want you to tell me what Hitler would do that would shock them?Just more proof you're a bigot. What happens in Iran is horrible. They kill their own people. Hitler killed people...tortured them...performed experiments on them...tied them to their loved ones, shot one and let him/her drag the other to their death to save money on bullets...put people IN OVENS...because of their beliefs. He did it to 6 million of them. You are so done you piece of shit.

[Shastafarian]

You just keep telling yourself that.

You just keep thinking we can negotiate with the "hardline" leaders of a society that executes children even when it's not hardline.

If they'll kill their own children...you think they gonna sit around and sing Kumbaya with us? And it becomes more acceptable and routine, the longer they stay in power.

McCain said, "We'll never torture again". So either he feels the need to reiterate that for no reason or he just admitted we have been torturing. Go suck off David Duke.

[JoeChalupa]

And where the hell is Sarah Palin?

[johnsmith]

I thought a slight edge went to McCain...................oh, and Obama is about as bad as Bush at speaking.

[01.20.09]

I thought a slight edge went to McCain...................oh, and Obama is about as bad as Bush at speaking.

That bad and yet you think McCain only was able to pull off a slight win? Obama showed he can stand toe to toe with McCain and didn't back down. A slight edge to McCain is a big victory for Obama.

[johnsmith]

That bad and yet you think McCain only was able to pull off a slight win? Obama showed he can stand toe to toe with McCain and didn't back down. A slight edge to McCain is a big victory for Obama.



Yeah, I don't really like McCain either. Seriously though, I think Obama is an awful speaker when having to go without a written speach. He would fail a high school speech class with all of his "uuuuuuummmmmmm's".

[2centsworth]

That bad and yet you think McCain only was able to pull off a slight win? Obama showed he can stand toe to toe with McCain and didn't back down. A slight edge to McCain is a big victory for Obama.

prefight odds had Obama way up.

[JoeChalupa]

Yeah, I don't really like McCain either. Seriously though, I think Obama is an awful speaker when having to go without a written speach. He would fail a high school speech class with all of his "uuuuuuummmmmmm's".

I thought Obama had his best debate yet and his "uuuuumms" were minimal and this wasn't a speech class. I don't think there was a clear winner but I do think it helps Obama more than McCain.

[MrChug]

It was too hard to tell over the Barack jibber-jabber...

[johnsmith]

I thought Obama had his best debate yet and his "uuuuumms" were minimal and this wasn't a speech class. I don't think there was a clear winner but I do think it helps Obama more than McCain.

I didn't really think either of them "said" anything we haven't heard yet. But I suppose this is for those Americans that haven't been paying attention.

[Bartleby]

I don't think there was a clear winner but I do think it helps Obama more than McCain.

Agreed. McCain needs to make up ground somehow and this was a missed opportunity for him to do that. Also, one of the biggest hurdles for Obama in terms of winning over undecided voters is that he is perceived as an unknown quantity, while McCain is not. This sort of exposure to the public ultimately works in Obama's favor if they come off as being equally "presidential."

[Findog]

You just keep telling yourself that.

You just keep thinking we can negotiate with the "hardline" leaders of a society that executes children even when it's not hardline.

If they'll kill their own children...you think they gonna sit around and sing Kumbaya with us? And it becomes more acceptable and routine, the longer they stay in power.

You deny we torture people?

[Mr. Peabody]

From Karl Rove (pre-debate) in the Wall Street Journal -


WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122230655620873931.html)
Mr. McCain needs to come across as optimistic, loose and likable. He must guard against revealing his lack of respect for Mr. Obama. And he must grab the "change" banner from Mr. Obama by describing a few things he'll do internationally that are new and different.
. . . .
Mr. Obama's task is to look like a credible commander in chief. Right now, too many people lack confidence that he's up to the most important of presidential responsibilities.

Mr. Obama must avoid the pervasive sense of nuance that weakened his performance at the Saddleback Forum. He should attack less. If Mr. McCain is condescending, Mr. Obama should call him on it. If Mr. McCain launches a full-out assault, Mr. Obama should rebut it. Otherwise, he should aim for firmness, seriousness of purpose and clarity in his views.
. . . .
A debate tie goes to the frontrunner. With that now being Mr. Obama by a slim margin, Mr. McCain must emerge the clear winner, or his prospects of being the next president will dim.

So....who won under Karl Rove's criteria?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

See I get the exact oppostite vibe..I get the feeling that any foreign leader is going to be in so far over their heads against Palin that it won't even be funny. She is totally ruthless against her enemies, in a way men can't even conceive of.

Whottt that is ridiculous.

Back to Iran....Ahmedinijad actually represents a different younger faction in Iran than the Supreme Leader. They have actually been at odds on a number of occasions, and the only thing the president has going for him is the public support he garners from fear mongering and his nuclear program. Some out there believe the Supreme Leader wants someone else to be president, but himself is hesitant to make any rash decision because of the existing rift between the political elite of Iran.

The Supreme Leader would never talk to us personally, it's heresy, but it would not be far fetched to open negotiations with his channels for a pragmatic mutually beneficial relationship with our two countries...something that will never happen if we set all those gay ass preconditions with a neocon mindset.

[DaDakota]

McCain looked old, and crotchety....Obama looked cool and Presidential.

It was close, but this was McCain's wheelhouse and Obama stood toe to toe with him...and didn't give an inch.

This election is heading towards an Obama landslide.

DD

[AFBlue]

When the debate was on the economy, I thought Barack had the edge. When it shifted to what this debate was supposed to be about (foreign policy), I thought McCain showed a greater knowledge and command of the subject. I also thought McCain gained more confidence and was unyielding in the latter half of the debate.

For me it's simple....when the debate is on the economy Obama wins, but when it's on foreign policy McCain wins.

One note: I was pissed off at Obama for avoiding the question of what would be prioritized in his administration given the impending bailout. With his spending proposals that's a combined $1.5 Trillion (with at T) dollars....while still promising a tax cut to 95% of Americans. Is the other 5% going to pay out a trillion dollars in taxes? I doubt it.

He had a chance to be real with America and stress how he was going to prioritize, but we got the same ol' political-speak as usual.

McCain's priority was well established....defense and veteran care.

[boutons_]

"The candidate who projects affability and optimism is usually seen to have bettered the candidate who projects resentment and gloom. If that is the case with tonight’s debate, Obama won and McCain lost."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/the_debate_the_all-important_g.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

McWorse was condescending, belittling, overly aggressive, bitter, talk-radio angry, and above all, revoltingly petty.

[TheMadHatter]

Watching the debate again it's incredible how McCain not once looked at Obama. Even when he was directly addressing him. Huge mistake, shows a clear lack of respect. Obama has just as much right as McCain to be up on that stage and McCain did a great disservice to himself by being so arrogant and rude as to not even look at his opponent.

[florige]

Who won? Nobody.

Who came away doing what they needed to do? Obama.

McCain needed a game changer. He didn't get it. With Palin coming up it could all be over quick.



For some reason I think she is going to exceed expectations Thursday. Don't ask me why I think that I just do.

[ChumpDumper]

Expectations are extrememly low for Palin now. If she doesn't soil herself onstage, it will be considered a good performance.

Even if she does, Yoni will say it probably smells better than Biden's leavings.

[florige]

I thought Obama had his best debate yet and his "uuuuumms" were minimal and this wasn't a speech class. I don't think there was a clear winner but I do think it helps Obama more than McCain.



Yeah thats what I thought as well. I thought he came off alot better than he did against Hillary.

[florige]

Expectations are extrememly low for Palin now. If she doesn't soil herself onstage, it will be considered a good performance.

Even if she does, Yoni will say it probably smells better than Biden's leavings.



:lol I know Whottt's going to probably tape that debate. Palin is his girl.

[florige]

It's funny as I look at some pics of last night debate I didn;t see John McCain even look at Obama once in the eyes. Almost like he feels insulted that he has to share the stage with him or something...... Maybe thats me me overanalyzing stuff.

[ChumpDumper]

No, everybody noticed that.

Just look in Obama's direction every once in awhile, John. It's not going to kill you.

[baseline bum]

For some reason I think she is going to exceed expectations Thursday. Don't ask me why I think that I just do.

Palin could let out a fart as a response to a question on the podium and she'd exceed expectations.

[ChumpDumper]

She ripped one much harder than Putin ever could. You guys have no idea.

[florige]

No, everybody noticed that.

Just look in Obama's direction every once in awhile, John. It's not going to kill you.

Not just during the actual debate, even when he shook hands with Obama it was almost like he didn't want to look him in the eyes.


Palin could let out a fart as a response to a question on the podium and she'd exceed expectations.

:lmao

[Findog]

Watching the debate again it's incredible how McCain not once looked at Obama. Even when he was directly addressing him. Huge mistake, shows a clear lack of respect. Obama has just as much right as McCain to be up on that stage and McCain did a great disservice to himself by being so arrogant and rude as to not even look at his opponent.

McRage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rZBmk0DYU

[baseline bum]

Seriously (and sadly), Palin will exceed expectations just by showing up to the debate Thursday.

[Findog]

Seriously (and sadly), Palin will exceed expectations just by showing up to the debate Thursday.

Give voters some credit. She'll do about as well as she did with Gibson and Couric. Biden needs to be real careful to be gracious, kind and accomodating. Shiv her with a smile on his face.

[MannyIsGod]

prefight odds had Obama way up.

LMAO WHAT????????????????????????????

[MannyIsGod]

Seriously (and sadly), Palin will exceed expectations just by showing up to the debate Thursday.

Yeah I pointed this out in the other thread. Right now her expectations are about as low as they can go and I'm sure she'll exceed them unless she has more Miss SC moments.

[romad_20]

McRage!



Horseshit!!! :lol

[baseline bum]

Yeah I pointed this out in the other thread. Right now her expectations are about as low as they can go and I'm sure
she'll exceed them unless she has more Miss SC moments.

:lol

Considering she's had nothing but these so far, the probability of another looks to be pretty high.

[Mr. Peabody]

LMAO WHAT????????????????????????????

Yeah, didn't you know. National security and foreign policy were supposed to be McCain's weaknesses and Obama's strengths. With all of Obama's twenty-six years of proclaimed national security experience and the fact that he made his own service a major theme of his campaign, this was a MUST win for Obama and one that frankly, everyone thought he would run away with. After all he's constantly harping on his experience as the factor that separates him from McCain. The fact that it was generally seen as a tie has to be devastating to Obama's presidential hopes.

Also, can you imagine how the Obama camp must be panicking now that the debates will likely focus on domestic issues and economic policy? They play right into McCain's acknowledged areas of expertise.

[MannyIsGod]

I've seen no focus group/poll where McCain won the independents. The CNN poll internals show more Dems so that accounts for the wide margin but even when you weight that back it still shows Obama winning comfortably. Shit, even the FOX focus group swung Obama's way!

I don't care who people think won, but Its obvious who the independents think won.

[whottt]

You deny we torture people?


Link?


What is it with you guys?

[whottt]

The Iranians say that shit for domestic consumption. It's like a red meat speech at a political convention, denouncing the "evil Zionist entity" always plays well at home. The Iranians ARE rational, they'll never attacK Israel with nukes.


You stupid fuck, the Iranians consider it legal to execute 9 year old girls...I want you to tell me that's rational.

[gameFACE]

I'll give the edge to Obama. McCain is obviously more experienced than Obama in foreign policy. But he did nothing to make me think he would be better at it as president. Obama held his own against him. Clearly Obama was better on economic issues.


The CNN poll internals show more Dems so that accounts for the wide margin but even when you weight that back it still shows Obama winning comfortably. Shit, even the FOX focus group swung Obama's way!

That's the only bit of feedback I really paid attention to last night. Two different types of networks and two different groups of citizens. Both groups were split down the middle in terms of who they voted for last time. Each network had a chance to be biased their way if they really wanted. But Obama still won both by good margins.

McCain needed to throw a punch and he didn't do it. Obama didn't stand for cheap attacks and defended himself well.

[MannyIsGod]

McCain won, LDO.

Undecided voters -- "Understands Your Needs and Problems":

Before the Debate, Obama:

Yes - 58%
No - 40%

After the Debate, Obama:

Yes - 79%
No - 21%

Before the Debate, McCain:

Yes - 36%
No - 64%

After the Debate, McCain:

Yes - 41%
No - 58%


PRESIDENTIAL PREFERENCE AMONG DEBATE WATCHERS
(Among uncommitted voters who watched debate)

Pre-debate, Obama: 36%
Pre-debate, McCain: 34%

Post-debate, Obama: 41%
Post-debate, McCain: 29%

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/2008Debate1.pdf

[sontinospurs]

How did McCain look presidential? He didn't make eye contact at all, kept staring down. Obama locked eyes on the camera and McCain both, real important a president can stand off like that.


If he's old and stupid, then I guess he did look presidential, haha

[whottt]

Whottt that is ridiculous.

Back to Iran....Ahmedinijad actually represents a different younger faction in Iran than the Supreme Leader. They have actually been at odds on a number of occasions, and the only thing the president has going for him is the public support he garners from fear mongering and his nuclear program.

This dude wasn't elected President and he isn't popular.







Some out there believe the Supreme Leader wants someone else to be president, but himself is hesitant to make any rash decision because of the existing rift between the political elite of Iran.

The Supreme Leader would never talk to us personally, it's heresy, but it would not be far fetched to open negotiations with his channels for a pragmatic mutually beneficial relationship with our two countries...something that will never happen if we set all those gay ass preconditions with a neocon mindset.

I see...and what do you think their idea of a mutually beneficial relationship is?

[Findog]

You stupid fuck, the Iranians consider it legal to execute 9 year old girls...I want you to tell me that's rational.

Are we going to war with Iran over their domestic practices? Are we going to invade North Korea over the way they treat their population? If you feel that strongly about it, go down to your local recruiting office. It's pretty easy to take a "strong moral stand" on Spurstalk.com. But you're just all talk and no action.

Are the Iranians going to attack Israel with nukes? Don't change the subject to compensate for the fact that you are on the business end of a losing argument.

[Findog]

Link?


What is it with you guys?

So I'll take that as "I have my head in the sand."

[Findog]

Anyways, I'm not so sure I want to be lectured on "rationality" by a guy who calls Sarah Palin the Elvis Presley of politics and the most popular and charismatic politician in the country.

[whottt]

McCain looked old, and crotchety....Obama looked cool and Presidential.

Obama looked cool :lmao






It was close, but this was McCain's wheelhouse and Obama stood toe to toe with him...and didn't give an inch.

Obama didn't know what the fuck he was talking about.




This election is heading towards an Obama landslide.

DD

You know normally I would think there aren't enough stupid people in the United States for that to be true...but I am starting to see the possibilities.

[Findog]

The spectrum of possibility in this election is close McCain win to Obama landslide. If McCain wins, it's by the skin of his teeth. That's still possible, since he's come back from the dead before in an election. But Barack has room to grow his lead.

[whottt]

Are we going to war with Iran over their domestic practices?


Are we going to invade North Korea over the way they treat their population? If you feel that strongly about it, go down to your local recruiting office. It's pretty easy to take a "strong moral stand" on Spurstalk.com. But you're just all talk and no action.

And why don't you go to Iran and be gay, christian or a "dissenter"...or better yet female.


C'mon dude., show me they're just the other side of the same coin.

Prove it.

Go to North Korea...they're no different than we are. I am sure they will welcome you with open arms.

Go for it...


You just get their side of things don't you?


You truly understand them don't you?


It makes you smart.







Are the Iranians going to attack Israel with nukes?

Depends on who comes to power....if a legitimate zealot gets in there with he power, they'll do it in a split second. They'll fabricate a reason to do it if they have to do so.





Don't change the subject to compensate for the fact that you are on the business end of a losing argument.

I'm not on the losing end of any argument...


You just don't give a shit about anyone but yourself. You're the one with his head stuck in the sand, you're the one turning a blind eye...and you're the one that thinks a theocratic state society with major unemployment and poverty, inspite of being one of the most minerally wealthy countries on the planet, is going to all of a sudden turn into Bohemia.

[Findog]

And why don't you go to Iran and be gay, christian or a "dissenter"...or better yet female.


C'mon dude., show me they're just the other side of the same coin.

Prove it.

Go to North Korea...they're no different than we are. I am sure they will welcome you with open arms.

Go for it...


You just get their side of things don't you?


You truly understand them don't you?


It makes you smart.



Are you willing to die to liberate North Korea? Are you willing to die to liberate Iran? If not, then shut the fuck up. I'm not willing to die to liberate either country. That's the issue. Otherwise, blathering about their human rights abuses when we operate Gitmo is hollow and empty. Of course, insert the whottt retort here about how I'm playing the moral equivalency game. North Korea and Iran have far worse human rights records, but the fuck are we to criticize other countries after the past 8 years? We've lost our moral standing in the world. Nobody listens to us.


Depends on who comes to power....if a legitimate zealot gets in there with he power, they'll do it in a split second. They'll fabricate a reason to do it.

They already have two "zealots" running the country, and they're pragmatic enough to realize that attack Israel is a losing proposition. Israel's enemy is the Arab birth rate and suicide bombers with TNT, not nukes.




I'm not on the losing end of any argument...

:lmao



You just don't give a shit about anyone but yourself.

:lmao


You're the one with his head stuck in the sand,

:lmao


you're the one turning a blind eye...

:lmao


and you're the one that thinks a theocratic state society with major unemployment and poverty, inspite of being one of the most minerally wealthy countries on the planet, is going to all of a sudden turn into Bohemia.

:lmao

When losing, go with the strawman

:lmao

[Findog]

I just want to apologize in advance, whottt. I didn't realize your anal fissures prevent you from joining the infantry or performing a combat role.

[Shastafarian]

I just want to apologize in advance, whottt. I didn't realize your anal fissures prevent you from joining the infantry or performing a combat role.

:lmao

Don't blame the guy. He just loves the "in and out" of his love life...

[whottt]

Are you willing to die to liberate North Korea? Are you willing to die to liberate Iran? If not, then shut the fuck up. I'm not willing to die to liberate either country.

And last I checked...no one is forcing you too.




That's the issue.

Otherwise, blathering about their human rights abuses when we operate Gitmo is hollow and empty. Of course, insert the whottt retort here about how I'm playing the moral equivalency game. North Korea and Iran have far worse human rights records, but the fuck are we to criticize other countries after the past 8 years? We've lost our moral standing in the world. Nobody listens to us.

:lmao and you think an immediate pull out of Iraq is going to imrpove that :lmao




They already have two "zealots" running the country, and they're pragmatic enough to realize that attack Israel is a losing proposition.

They're pragmatic enough to realize it with W in power.

I think it depends entirely on who is leading our country.

Once we get an idiot who considers everyone different sides of the same coint they will rape that mindset. To their advantage.


And anyone that thinks otherwise, that these are just friendly people if only we give them the chance...is an idiot.





Israel's enemy is the Arab birth rate and suicide bombers with TNT, not nukes.

No...Israel's enemy is Europe, the Mid-East and American Liberals.






When losing, go with the strawman

:lmao

I don't need a strawman with you...

[bonnington]

Hmmm...in current Iran:


They torture people.
They kill them for changing religions.
They kill them for being gay.
They kill them for speaking out.
They kill them for being raped.
They kill them for commiting adultry.

They execute children.


They did it even when they had a guy that was an extreme liberal by their standards.


I want you to tell me what Hitler would do that would shock them?

So you are one of those who denies the holocaust?

[whottt]

So you are one of those who denies the holocaust?


No...but you are one of those that's idiot who can't read or interprtet simple statments.

I said shocked...

:lol if you think these guys would be shocked by the holocaust. Impressed and envious? Yes. Shocked? No.

[Shastafarian]

No...but you are one of those that's idiot who can't read or interprtet simple statments.

I said shocked...

:lol if you think these guys would be shocked by the holocaust. Impressed and envious? Yes. Shocked? No.

English isn't his first language dipshit.

[whottt]

hypocriteafarian...just don't whine about being on ignore. You failed to justify anything you post as read worthy. You're nothing but ignorance with a keyboard.

[Shastafarian]

hypocriteafarian.

:lol

[hypocriteafarian]

hypocriteafarian

you rang?

[sook]

You stupid fuck, the Iranians consider it legal to execute 9 year old girls...I want you to tell me that's rational.

What you said was false, I'm persian and have been to Iran i don't however support Ahmedinijad.

My Aunt's neighbors are jews and they are good friends and integrated into the society.

You'd be surprised to find how many jews themselves protest Israel's occupation.

They are just empty threats trust me, Iran would never allow something like this.

[Shastafarian]

What you said was false, I'm persian and have been to Iran i don't however support Ahmedinijad.

My Aunt's neighbors are jews and they are good friends and integrated into the society.

You'd be surprised to find how many jews themselves protest Israel's occupation.

They are just empty threats trust me, Iran would never allow something like this.

Don't confuse whottt with facts. He'll just put you on ignore for being boring.

[sook]

Yahoo News:


John McCain

Substance: His arguments were hard to follow at the beginning, but he found his voice as the debate progressed, although he never seemed fully in control of his message. He had plenty to say about the economy, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Russia, but often bogged down his own answers when trying to unfurl quips and soundbites. Stuck with bumper sticker slogans on the economy, and while he got a bit more detailed on foreign policy, he stayed at his usual level of abstraction. If he truly knows more about the world than Obama, he didn't show it in this debate.

Grade: B-

Style: Cluttered, jumpy, and often muddled. Frequent coughing early on helped neither his arguments nor his image. Jokes about being deaf and anecdotes about Normandy and George Shultz seemed ill-advised - even his pen was old. His presentation was further hindered by his wandering discussion of the differing heights of North and South Koreans and his angry assertion about how well he knows Henry Kissinger. Fell into the classic politician's trap of inserting familiar stump speech applause lines into debate responses - which only works if done with enthusiasm and clarity (and if received by applause - a big No-No in Lehrer's auditorium, which the audience obeyed seriously and silently). Keenly aware of the grand, grave occasion, McCain wavered between respectful and domineering, and ended up awkward and edgy.

Grade: C-

Offense: Emphasized his bread and butter issues of taxes and spending, and hit Obama on his failure to visit Iraq and his expressed willingness to meet with dictators. But while mocking his opponent on a few occasions, which reflected his acute disrespect for Obama, he did so in an insufficiently sharp and detailed manner - and unevenly worked elements of his rival's record into his attacks. Still he was utterly confident about his own experience, knowledge, and policies, even when tripped by his own tongue and distracted by the strains of debate practice. The main problem: Obama's obvious preparation and sharp answers contradicted McCain's frequent claims that the Democrat was uninformed and "didn't understand" key issues.

Grade: C+

Defense: He managed to ignore most of Obama's jibes, but was eventually baited into giving an extended answer about his policy differences with President Bush, after his opponent repeatedly mentioned McCain's regular support of Bush's budgets. Was visibly riled when clashing with Obama over a variety of issues, including Iraq, sanctions, and spending. He also chose to boast about Sarah Palin (although not by name) as his maverick partner, who, after her shaky week, may no longer be his ace in the hole.

Grade: B-

Overall: McCain was McCain - evocative, intense, and at times emotional, but also vague, elliptical, and atonal. Failed to deliver his "country first versus Obama first" message cleanly, even when offered several opportunities. Surprisingly, did not talk much about "change," virtually ceding the dominant issue of the race.

Overall grade: B-
(Read Mark Halperin's take on Barack Obama's performance)

Barack Obama

Substance: Quite manifestly immersed in the past, present, and future details of policy, and eager to express his views, which have been expanded, honed, and solidified during the last 18 months of hard campaigning. Still, he did avoid the nitty-gritty details of policy positions in favor of broad principles and references to working Americans, thereby not presenting the kind of specifics that some voters are waiting to hear from him.

Grade: B+

Style: Polished, confident, focused. Fully prepared, and able to convey a real depth of knowledge on nearly every issue. He was unhurried, and rarely lost his train of thought even when the debate wended and winded - and uttered far fewer of his trademark, distracting, "ums." At times, however, Obama revealed the level of his preparation by faltering over a rehearsed answer. He seemed to deliberately focus on the moderator and the home audience, with McCain as an afterthought - except when on the attack. Chose to avoid humor, for the most part, in favor of a stern demeanor, and in the process, came off as cool as a cucumber.

Grade: A

Offense: Linking McCain to Bush in his very first answer, he kept it up as his primary line of attack. Forcefully hit McCain for his early support of the Iraq War. Though he never drew blood, he did keep McCain a bit off balance, often with clever references to McCain's recent statements.

Grade: B

Defense: Had a reasonable answer for every charge that came his way - with little anger, bluster, or anxiety. Often interrupting McCain attacks with swift explanations and comebacks, he managed to spin accusations of being liberal as evidence of his relentless opposition to George Bush (in replies that were clearly planned). Offered a rather clumsy alternative to McCain's well-known, moving story of wearing the bracelet of a soldier lost in Iraq (a gift from the soldier's mother), with a story about a bracelet of his own. Fearless, without condescension, he attempted the gracious move of agreeing with or complimenting a McCain position, occasionally to his own detriment.

Grade: A-

Overall: Went for a solid, consistent performance to introduce himself to the country. He did not seem nervous, tentative, or intimidated by the event, and avoided mistakes from his weak debate performances during nomination season (a professorial tone and long winded answers). Standing comfortably on the stage with his rival, he showed he belonged - evocative of Reagan, circa 1980. He was so confident by the end that he reminded his biggest audience yet that his father was from Kenya. Two more performances like that and he will be very tough to beat on Election Day.

Overall grade: A-



Its official, Yahoo is my god

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Whottt, you're cool in person but Sarah Palin has really changed you, it's like, scary.

I have no choice but to bump your quote about how Blacks don't like Obama anymore and probably won't vote for him, and if McCain wins and dies, I have no choice but to bump your quote about how Palin will scare foreign leaders into deference, if only because she has popped out four kids and had nice T's.

[whottt]

What you said was false, I'm persian and have been to Iran i don't however support Ahmedinijad.

Uh...no I'm not wrong. Girls can be executed from the age of 9 and boys from the age of 15 by in Iran.




My Aunt's neighbors are jews and they are good friends and integrated into the society.

You'd be surprised to find how many jews themselves protest Israel's occupation.

No I wouldn't...there are anti-Israel Jewish groups in the United States.


The ability of the Jews to self-hate puts that of the Liberal White Male to shame.




They are just empty threats trust me, Iran would never allow something like this.

Yeah..because that govt is so enlightened...

[whottt]

Whottt, you're cool in person but Sarah Palin has really changed you, it's like, scary.

I like Palin a great deal...but that's not what has caused my change attitude...my change in attitude is entirely due to the intolerant and dishonest attitudes of the left.

I don't like the President, Congress, Media, Internet, Global Multi National Corp leftist alignment, and I'm amazed that so many educated people don't see it for what it is.

When I was a young man we of the liberal mindset rebelled against the establishment...not served as it's zombie marching army.




I have no choice but to bump your quote about how Blacks don't like Obama anymore and probably won't vote for him,

It was a joke...but I actually think do think people are overestimating the AA vote.




and if McCain wins and dies, I have no choice but to bump your quote about how Palin will scare foreign leaders into deference, if only because she has popped out four kids and had nice T's.


You're the focused on her tits and kids...not I. I haven't even seen her tits.

[sook]

Uh...no I'm not wrong. Girls can be executed from the age of 9 and boys from the age of 15 by in Iran.




No I wouldn't...there are anti-Israel Jewish groups in the United States.


The ability of the Jews to self-hate puts that of the Liberal White Male to shame.





Yeah..because that govt is so enlightened...

i can't even begin to understand your ignorance when you say something like jews hating themselves.

All jews aren't israeli, but all the people of israel are jews.

Its like saying that germans hating nazis hate germans.

However, i don't want to go off topic and start discussing what is so

blatantly wrong in the occupation of palestine.

To believe that a 9yr old could be executed is beyond comical to me. I'm

guessing that fox news told you that? Of course don't believe a person that

has actually been to the country before. IRAN IS A THEOCRACY, ITS RUN ON

THE TEACHINGS OF THE QURAN. If a 9 yr old can be executed there, trust

me they can be executed in Saudi A. or w.e. Your entranced into the media's

perception that Iran is working for one goal and one goal only, to destroy

israel. What you don't realize is that most arab nations don't care about the

palestenians and deny them citizenship. Much so like Iran, but they at least

have the decency of condemning israel and warning it. Iran isn't stupid

enough to drop a nuke, and get attacked by the Zionists running our

government, that clearly love israel more.

To help someone of your intellect understand this better. Would you kick a

guy with a rifle in the balls?

[MannyIsGod]

I like Palin a great deal...but that's not what has caused my change attitude...my change in attitude is entirely due to the intolerant and dishonest attitudes of the left.

I don't like the President, Congress, Media, Internet, Global Multi National Corp leftist alignment, and I'm amazed that so many educated people don't see it for what it is.

When I was a young man we of the liberal mindset rebelled against the establishment...not served as it's zombie marching army.




It was a joke...but I actually think do think people are overestimating the AA vote.





You're the focused on her tits and kids...not I. I haven't even seen her tits.

Maybe they don't see it like you. Have you ever thought about what the reaction would be to 8 years of a republican administration almost always having control of congress and absolutely running this country into the ground might be?

The country is fed up. They were fed up in 2006 and they're still fed up today. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and most of the country welcomes that at this moment.

The Right should have thought of the consequences before they fucked it up the way they did. Left does not equal Evil, no matter how much you may believe that. However, it has become painfully - or is that Palinfully? - clear that the right may very well equal incompetence and stupidity. I'm ready to give the left a shot.

[whottt]

Maybe they don't see it like you. Have you ever thought about what the reaction would be to 8 years of a republican administration almost always having control of congress and absolutely running this country into the ground might be?

Don't look at me...the only Republican I voted for in 2004 was W, and that was because the Democrats gave me no alternative. I prefer the parties balancing each other out. That said...I did think it was hilarious that propagandizing the war not only did not get W out of the whitehouse, but actually put more Republicans in Congress. I said it was a bad tactic at the time. Furthermore...I don't know who these outraged people are, the ones who voted Republican in 2004?


As for 2006...you and I sat here on this forum that night and at no time was I suprised by the Democrats swinging into power. It's what America has done historically in elections...oppostional parties in charge of the legislative and executive branches.


However..what you overlook is that things have gotten worse since the Democrats swept into power in Congress, and while Joe Public may be stupid enough to continue blaming the Republicans for it...I actually know how government works and realize that W is nothing more than a veto or a signature...he's not in charge of allocating funds, he's not in charge of the money and how it is spent..Congress is.






The country is fed up. They were fed up in 2006 and they're still fed up today. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and most of the country welcomes that at this moment.


Be sure to check the approval rate of Congress...it's doing worse than W is.




The Right should have thought of the consequences before they fucked it up the way they did. Left does not equal Evil, no matter how much you may believe that. However, it has become painfully - or is that Palinfully? - clear that the right may very well equal incompetence and stupidity. I'm ready to give the left a shot.

Depends on which left you speak of...the one that serves America or the one that serves what's outside of America.


You guys could easily support Pro-American lefties that will serve this country like Jim Webb or even the Clintons...yet you refuse to give those candidates any sort of chance, and instead give the opportunities to those that don't seem to realize that their job is to run this country, not run it for other countries. You give those chances to individuals enamored with global entities a hundred times more ineffective and corrupt than the US Govt is on it's worst day.


In any case...support who you like, just realize that there is nothing counter culture about the side you are aligned on...you are on the side of the wealthiest, the biggest, the most powerful, you are on the side of the establishment, THE BIG GLOBAL ESTABLISHMENT. You are not the underdog...you are Goliath.

[Supergirl]

McCain wins just by being there.

He wasn't expected to even show up, so how high can expectations really be for him?

It's like when you hear a rumor that Santana may cancel the concert you have tickets for, but then he doesn't and no matter how he played, you're happy he didn't cancel.

Hahaahahahahaha. This article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4837692.ece) says McCain may have LOST just by showing up.

IMO, McCain was a) the most lucid he's been in in over a year, but that's not saying much and b) playing from behind. The only way he could "win" would be to blow Obama out of the water, but that didn't happen. Instead, he just kept repeating over an over how Obama "didn't have the experience" and "doesn't get it" but Obama blew him off the stage by showing he DOES get it and DOES have the experience.

The two stupidest moments:
1. The pissing match they got into about 18 million when there's a 700 billion offer on the table and 70 billion being spent in Iraq a month.
2. The pissing match they got into over what Kissinger actually said. By the way, Obama was right.

[johnsmith]

Don't confuse whottt with facts. He'll just put you on ignore for being boring.

A single persons experience does not constitute facts.......................jackass.

[Shastafarian]

i can't even begin to understand your ignorance when you say something like jews hating themselves.

All jews aren't israeli, but all the people of israel are jews.

Its like saying that germans hating nazis hate germans.

However, i don't want to go off topic and start discussing what is so

blatantly wrong in the occupation of palestine.

To believe that a 9yr old could be executed is beyond comical to me. I'm

guessing that fox news told you that? Of course don't believe a person that

has actually been to the country before. IRAN IS A THEOCRACY, ITS RUN ON

THE TEACHINGS OF THE QURAN. If a 9 yr old can be executed there, trust

me they can be executed in Saudi A. or w.e. Your entranced into the media's

perception that Iran is working for one goal and one goal only, to destroy

israel. What you don't realize is that most arab nations don't care about the

palestenians and deny them citizenship. Much so like Iran, but they at least

have the decency of condemning israel and warning it. Iran isn't stupid

enough to drop a nuke, and get attacked by the Zionists running our

government, that clearly love israel more.

To help someone of your intellect understand this better. Would you kick a

guy with a rifle in the balls?

Again, don't try and rationalize with whottt, especially using things like facts. He's always right and his opinion is the most informed and well thought out opinion in the history of time. Next time you disagree with him, don't. He's always right and nothing on earth could prove him wrong, especially facts.

[Shastafarian]

A single persons experience does not constitute facts.......................jackass.

:lmao

What a gem this one is. So if I said, "I went to the grocery store the other day and I fell and broke my ankle." That's not a fact? Maybe you and whottt have some evidence Iran executes 9 year old girls???? If so please post it.

[Findog]

It was a joke...but I actually think do think people are overestimating the AA vote.

Dems typically get about 90% of the black vote in a prez election. Obama will get about 95% of that. And there will be record-high turnout among AA's.

[johnsmith]

:lmao

What a gem this one is. So if I said, "I went to the grocery store the other day and I fell and broke my ankle." That's not a fact? Maybe you and whottt have some evidence Iran executes 9 year old girls???? If so please post it.

Take a look at what you were talking about you stupid fuck:


What you said was false, I'm persian and have been to Iran i don't however support Ahmedinijad.

My Aunt's neighbors are jews and they are good friends and integrated into the society.

You'd be surprised to find how many jews themselves protest Israel's occupation.

They are just empty threats trust me, Iran would never allow something like this.



Don't confuse whottt with facts. He'll just put you on ignore for being boring.


Since I'm financially doing better then I was a year or two ago, then all this economy talk is balderdash then...................you know, because me saying it makes it true.





Fuck you're an idiot.

[Shastafarian]

Take a look at what you were talking about you stupid fuck:






Since I'm financially doing better then I was a year or two ago, then all this economy talk is balderdash then...................you know, because me saying it makes it true.





Fuck you're an idiot.
haha man you're gettin upset for no reason. Calm down there big guy

"What you said was false, I'm persian and have been to Iran i don't however support Ahmedinijad. "

whottt claimed they execute 9 year old girls in Iran. This was a response to that. I told this person not to confuse whottt with facts. IF you have evidence they actually execute 9 year old girls, please post it.

[PixelPusher]

Take a look at what you were talking about you stupid fuck:






Since I'm financially doing better then I was a year or two ago, then all this economy talk is balderdash then...................you know, because me saying it makes it true.





Fuck you're an idiot.
I understand your point about anecdotal evidence, but in the context of this thread - anecdotal facts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whottt's "facts"

[whottt]

i can't even begin to understand your ignorance when you say something like jews hating themselves.

All jews aren't israeli,

Sigh...



but all the people of israel are jews.

False, they are not all Jews.




Its like saying that germans hating nazis hate germans.


And many Germans do hate Nazi Germans.





To believe that a 9yr old could be executed is beyond comical to me. I'm

guessing that fox news told you that?

It's the age defined by Sharia Law in Iran.




Of course don't believe a person that

has actually been to the country before. IRAN IS A THEOCRACY, ITS RUN ON

THE TEACHINGS OF THE QURAN.

No shit...how old was Aisha when Muhammad married her?

Since you've been to Iran you should have that knowledge.



If a 9 yr old can be executed there, trust

me they can be executed in Saudi A. or w.e.

Saudi Arabia is much worse than Iran on human rights. The Sunnis are worse than the Shias. The problem is that both religions are currently battling a dark and oppressive age and both of them consider non-Muslims as second class citizens at best and those who need to be whittled down to minority status.

And the leadership of Saudi Arabia needs to go too. The problem is that's a hell of a lot more complicated due to their being the birthplace of Muhammad, not to mention having a trillion dollar economy and being the world's largest exporter of Oil....not to mention being the most stable country in the region historically, as well as the one least hostile to it's neighbors.


There are 900 million or so Sunnis in the world, only 130 million Shias...who would you rather fight first?

And make no mistake about it...as long as they consider non-Muslims second class citizens, that fight is going to happen. The majority of Christians and Jews figured out that second class citizsen thing didn't work to well...when will the majority of Muslims figure it out?





Your entranced into the media's

perception that Iran is working for one goal and one goal only, to destroy

israel.

I don't think that's their only goal...their goal is to spread Shia Islam and reunify the Ottoman Empire under the authority of the Imams.

They hate the Sunnis almost as much as they hate the Jews...sometimes more.


But you're a brainwashed lemming...Iran leads the world annually in the execution of juveniles.


They executed tons of children during the Islamic Revolution, they executed a 15 year old girl just a couple of years ago. They executed a 16 year old boy a couple of years ago as well. They also executed a 31 year old woman for a crime she commited at the age of 13.






What you don't realize is that most arab nations don't care about the

palestenians and deny them citizenship. Much so like Iran, but they at least

have the decency of condemning israel and warning it. Iran isn't stupid

enough to drop a nuke, and get attacked by the Zionists running our

government, that clearly love israel more.


Um...I know full well what the Palestinians are, they are the radical scum of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, kicked out of those countries and formed into an Anti-Israeli Movement by the Soviet Union in the sixties....this almost forced the Israelis into turning to the Soviet Union for support and then America stepped into an alliance with Israel to prevent that happening, which then flipped several muslim countries other than Saudi Arabia into an alliance with the Soviet Union. And that was the last major political realignment in the Mid-East until America went into Iraq.

And yes I know those other countries are the ones responsible for the refugee status of the majority of the Palestinians.

I know this...it's the liberals on this board that don't. That's who you need to explain that to.

It's really hilarious when you look at a map...all those huge Arab nations have no room for the Palestinians, but little Israel is supposed to make room for them. That stunt only fools Muslims and Liberals.

Bottom line...they don't like the white European Jews being in their land, and those Kings and Ayatollahs don't like a Democracy being there either...I don't really blame them for that on the European Jew thing...that doesn't mean you exterminate them, as the Muslims have already attempted to do, twice.

And you don't blame America for it...you blame Europe for it. They're the ones behind it...they didn't want the Jews there. Not just Germany, but Great Britain and France as well.




To help someone of your intellect understand this better. Would you kick a

guy with a rifle in the balls?

Depends on if I thought he was going to shoot me or not...if he was saying he was going to shoot me, yes I would...I wouldn't have an alternative.

[Shastafarian]

I understand your point about anecdotal evidence, but in the context of this thread - anecdotal facts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whottt's "facts"

Anecdotal facts are still facts (as long as they can be corroborated). If someone inserts their opinion in with an anecdotal fact then proper differentiation is needed. Doesn't change the fact johnsmith got upset I was attacking his boyfriend for something that was completely justified (re: Iran executes 9 year old girls).

[Shastafarian]

False, they are not all Jews.


Would you like to better explain your statement?


To refer to "Arab nationals," as this law does, is a deceptive translation of ezrahut, because Arabs or others who are not Jews cannot be "nationals" of Israel. Only Jews can be "nationals." Their nationality rights are granted by the Law of Return. No Israeli nationality applies to all citizens, as does a US nationality in the United States or French nationality in France, for example. In Israel, there is only a Jewish nationality. That non-Jews cannot qualify for nationality rights in the state of Israel was affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1972 in a statement that there is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people.

[whottt]

Dems typically get about 90% of the black vote in a prez election. Obama will get about 95% of that.

We'll see.



And there will be record-high turnout among AA's.

Yeah will there are Pro-Life and Pro-American African Americans as well, there are also African Americans that don't like candidates that are totally full of shit...not to mention something like 70% of African American supported profiling of Muslims after September 11th. And there were a lot of African Americans that were Clinton supporters too. Without a doubt there will be a huge turnout, will 95% of it go to Obama? We'll see. I definitely don't see any African American that voted for Bush voting for Obama...

[bonnington]

No...but you are one of those that's idiot who can't read or interprtet simple statments.

I said shocked...

:lol if you think these guys would be shocked by the holocaust. Impressed and envious? Yes. Shocked? No.

Then you don't know exactly how my family died.

[Findog]

We'll see.



Yeah will there are Pro-Life and Pro-American African Americans as well, there are also African Americans that don't like candidates that are totally full of shit...not to mention something like 70% of African American supported profiling of Muslims after September 11th. And there were a lot of African Americans that were Clinton supporters too. Without a doubt there will be a huge turnout, will 95% of it go to Obama? We'll see. I definitely don't see any African American that voted for Bush voting for Obama...

You simply don't understand the level of pride that AA's have over the potential of having one of their own in the WH (yeah, I know, he's not a descendant of West African slaves). There are going to be a lot of non-political AAs that typically don't vote that do this year. And the Colin Powell types are going for Obama. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Powell endorses Obama.

[bonnington]

Would you like to better explain your statement?

Exactly, Arabs (or Druze or other minority groups) in Israel are granted full citizenship, but are considered of Arab or in these times of palestinian nationality, since the Israeli nationality is intrinsically Jewish.

And, despite the fact that I speak Spanish, I understood what Whoot meant.

That's the reason I asked if he denied the Shoa, because nothing the Iranian are doing can be compared by the way my family died.

I really think that the Iranians could actually be shocked by the perversion of the Nazis.

[AFBlue]

Hahaahahahahaha. This article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4837692.ece) says McCain may have LOST just by showing up.

IMO, McCain was a) the most lucid he's been in in over a year, but that's not saying much and b) playing from behind. The only way he could "win" would be to blow Obama out of the water, but that didn't happen. Instead, he just kept repeating over an over how Obama "didn't have the experience" and "doesn't get it" but Obama blew him off the stage by showing he DOES get it and DOES have the experience.

The two stupidest moments:
1. The pissing match they got into about 18 million when there's a 700 billion offer on the table and 70 billion being spent in Iraq a month.
2. The pissing match they got into over what Kissinger actually said. By the way, Obama was right.

Obama showed a decent command of foreign policy, but I don't get where he proved he's got the experience.

1. Yeah I thought the $18B (with a B) was a bit paltry when Obama wasn't stating how he was going to prioritize or cut back on the $800B (with a B) of proposed new spending (that $1.5 TRILLION in total spending if you include the bailout) AND give a tax cut to 95% of working Americans, AND keep spending under control.

That $18B seems really small now doesn't it?

2. Obama was right in stating that Kissinger was for secretary-level talks with those countries....but that's an irrelevant point.

Obama said he, as President of the United States, would meet with the leaders of those countries without pre-condition. He didn't specify that secretary-level meetings or other preparations would need to be done until he realized the political implications of what he was suggesting.


FWIW, I don't think either candidate won or lost this debate as a whole. Each candidate had their own strong and weak moments...and it made for a mostly unspectacular event.

I just took exception to some of your observations.

[sook]

Sigh...



False, they are not all Jews.




And many Germans do hate Nazi Germans.





It's the age defined by Sharia Law in Iran.




No shit...how old was Aisha when Muhammad married her?

Since you've been to Iran you should have that knowledge.



Saudi Arabia is much worse than Iran on human rights. The Sunnis are worse than the Shias. The problem is that both religions are currently battling a dark and oppressive age and both of them consider non-Muslims as second class citizens at best and those who need to be whittled down to minority status.

And the leadership of Saudi Arabia needs to go too. The problem is that's a hell of a lot more complicated due to their being the birthplace of Muhammad, not to mention having a trillion dollar economy and being the world's largest exporter of Oil....not to mention being the most stable country in the region historically, as well as the one least hostile to it's neighbors.


There are 900 million or so Sunnis in the world, only 130 million Shias...who would you rather fight first?

And make no mistake about it...as long as they consider non-Muslims second class citizens, that fight is going to happen. The majority of Christians and Jews figured out that second class citizsen thing didn't work to well...when will the majority of Muslims figure it out?





I don't think that's their only goal...their goal is to spread Shia Islam and reunify the Ottoman Empire under the authority of the Imams.

They hate the Sunnis almost as much as they hate the Jews...sometimes more.


But you're a brainwashed lemming...Iran leads the world annually in the execution of juveniles.


They executed tons of children during the Islamic Revolution, they executed a 15 year old girl just a couple of years ago. They executed a 16 year old boy a couple of years ago as well. They also executed a 31 year old woman for a crime she commited at the age of 13.







Um...I know full well what the Palestinians are, they are the radical scum of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, kicked out of those countries and formed into an Anti-Israeli Movement by the Soviet Union in the sixties....this almost forced the Israelis into turning to the Soviet Union for support and then America stepped into an alliance with Israel to prevent that happening, which then flipped several muslim countries other than Saudi Arabia into an alliance with the Soviet Union. And that was the last major political realignment in the Mid-East until America went into Iraq.

And yes I know those other countries are the ones responsible for the refugee status of the majority of the Palestinians.

I know this...it's the liberals on this board that don't. That's who you need to explain that to.

It's really hilarious when you look at a map...all those huge Arab nations have no room for the Palestinians, but little Israel is supposed to make room for them. That stunt only fools Muslims and Liberals.

Bottom line...they don't like the white European Jews being in their land, and those Kings and Ayatollahs don't like a Democracy being there either...I don't really blame them for that on the European Jew thing...that doesn't mean you exterminate them, as the Muslims have already attempted to do, twice.

And you don't blame America for it...you blame Europe for it. They're the ones behind it...they didn't want the Jews there. Not just Germany, but Great Britain and France as well.




Depends on if I thought he was going to shoot me or not...if he was saying he was going to shoot me, yes I would...I wouldn't have an alternative.

The ignorance presented in your post is beyond me...every thing you just stated was your opinion, and the palestenians are from the neighboring arab countries? WTF are you smoking? Most of them have migrated there and what you don't seem to understand is that all the jews from israel were brought from europe and russia, fully paid for by the Israeli government.

You feel that the Saudi gov should be toppled...

I'm going to take the advice of the guy earlier. You are not prepared to look at the facts, but you go and ramble your opinion and twist it around with your philosophy. The fact you keep it secluded mostly to the internet is a good enough reason.

[Shastafarian]

I'm going to take the advice of the guy earlier. You are not prepared to look at the facts, but you go and ramble your opinion and twist it around with your philosophy. The fact you keep it secluded mostly to the internet is a good enough reason.

He's what they like to call "internet tough guys".

[sook]

He's what they like to call "internet tough guys".

or the typical right wing douche bag that holds his opinion to be law.

[whottt]

Then you don't know exactly how my family died.

You're right, I don't know how exactly how your family died because I know don't who you are and I have never met you before and this maybe the second time I have posted to you. You are a total stranger to me. You're absolutely right that I do not know that. And I am sincerely sorry that your family is dead, but it will not change my opinion.

I've got two wars where Israel was attacked on virtually all sides by the Arab countries to prove that any threat by any country in that region towards Israel is one that is to be taken seriously.

[mavs>spurs2]

You're right, I don't know how exactly how your family died because I know don't who you are and I have never met you before and this maybe the second time I have posted to you. You are a total stranger to me. You're absolutely right that I do not know that. And I am sincerely sorry that your family is dead, but it will not change my opinion.

I've got two wars where Israel was attacked on virtually all sides by the Arab countries to prove that any threat by any country in that region towards Israel is one that is to be taken seriously.

Israel can take care of themselves, they've got alot of our technology. Any arabic country would be down right foolish to attack Israel

[Shastafarian]

I've got two wars where Israel was attacked on virtually all sides by the Arab countries to prove that any threat by any country in that region towards Israel is one that is to be taken seriously.

Do you really have no clue how wars are run? Or do you really think Iran is going to attempt to invade Israel?

[bonnington]

You're right, I don't know how exactly how your family died because I know don't who you are and I have never met you before and this maybe the second time I have posted to you. You are a total stranger to me. You're absolutely right that I do not know that. And I am sincerely sorry that your family is dead, but it will not change my opinion.

I've got two wars where Israel was attacked on virtually all sides by the Arab countries to prove that any threat by any country in that region towards Israel is one that is to be taken seriously.

I'll give you some info on me then.

I was born in Argentina, I am Jewish, I've lost almost all my family in the holocaust and more some in the Argentine 1976-1983 dictatorship, I made my compulsive military service with the Argentine Army as an infantry man, then emigrated to Israel, where I made my 3 years service in Tzahal. I entered combat in Lebanon during the occupation of the South Lebanon, twice.
I came back to Argentina since that, and I am still listed a s a reserve noncom officer.

And I am an active member of the Israeli pacifist movement, Peace Now.

[sook]

I'll give you some info on me then.

I was born in Argentina, I am Jewish, I've lost almost all my family in the holocaust and more some in the Argentine 1976-1983 dictatorship, I made my compulsive military service with the Argentine Army as an infantry man, then emigrated to Israel, where I made my 3 years service in Tzahal. I entered combat in Lebanon during the occupation of the South Lebanon, twice.
I came back to Argentina since that, and I am still listed a s a reserve noncom officer.

And I am an active member of the Israeli pacifist movement, Peace Now.
So sorry to hear about what your family went through :(



Its cool to see someone that has done all that, like serve and live in the mideast, hopefully we can argue/relate to some great points :p:

[whottt]

The ignorance presented in your post is beyond me...every thing you just stated was your opinion, and the palestenians are from the neighboring arab countries?

In particular the PLO were expelled from Jordan. It's not my opinion, it is a fact.

There was virtually no opinion in my post and just about everything was indeed a fact, and I guarantee you I have spent more time studying it than you, or anyone else in this thread.



WTF are you smoking? Most of them have migrated there




and what you don't seem to understand is that all the jews from israel were brought from europe and russia, fully paid for by the Israeli government.


You may have all the knowledge in the world on what the situation is in the mid-east, but you have virtually no knowledge of what Europe's goals were. In particular the British and the French..the two countries most responsible for the fucked up state of the Middle East(not to mention Asia and Africa).




You feel that the Saudi gov should be toppled...


Fuck yes...it has a well over a hundred billion dollar economy only 30 million people and about 25% unemployment...it is a completely incompetent government...that is also arguably the most oppressive on Earth.





I'm going to take the advice of the guy earlier. You are not prepared to look at the facts,

I'll trade facts with you all you want...

Let's do that, let's trade facts. Which facts would you like to see?




but you go and ramble your opinion and twist it around with your philosophy.
My philosophy comes from looking at things from every perspective, from the inside out and the outside in, not just one.

And there is some interpretation there...but at least it's my own, and no someone elses, as your "knowledge" is.



The fact you keep it secluded mostly to the internet is a good enough reason.

Well buddy...I'm not really impressed with your opinion either...the fact that you think all Jews aren't Israelis is some kind of elite knowledge pretty much guarantees you are stupider than I am.


Let's trade some facts...which facts would you like to trade?

[Findog]

Israel can take care of themselves, they've got alot of our technology. Any arabic country would be down right foolish to attack Israel

Israel will never be attacked directly with nukes. I don't think it's plausible to think that a "dirty" bomb will ever be set off in Tel Aviv because they would hold the Iranians responsible. Israel has two problems: the Palestinian birthrate and suicide bombers strapping themselves with TNT.

[Shastafarian]

There was virtually no opinion in my post and just about everything was indeed a fact, and I guarantee you I have spent more time studying it than you, or anyone else in this thread.


From books and classes on the matter? Or are you just full of shit? That's a rhetorical question. I know you're full of shit (not to mention arrogance).

[whottt]

I'll give you some info on me then.

I was born in Argentina, I am Jewish, I've lost almost all my family in the holocaust and more some in the Argentine 1976-1983 dictatorship, I made my compulsive military service with the Argentine Army as an infantry man, then emigrated to Israel, where I made my 3 years service in Tzahal. I entered combat in Lebanon during the occupation of the South Lebanon, twice.
I came back to Argentina since that, and I am still listed a s a reserve noncom officer.

And I am an active member of the Israeli pacifist movement, Peace Now.

Ok no for my question, what does this have to do with my statement that the holocaust would not shock the Iranian leadership? In a region of the world where Israel has twice been attacked on all sides and the Iranians have 30 years now of being sworn to the destruction of Israel?

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

[sook]

Well buddy...I'm not really impressed with your opinion either...the fact that you think all Jews aren't Israelis is some kind of elite knowledge pretty much guarantees you are stupider than I am.


Let's trade some facts...which facts would you like to trade?

Stop right there...please don't dig your hole any deeper. Your still adhering to all jews being Israelis? There are jews all over the world and a lot of them don't have Israeli passports.

If all jews were israelis then that means that all of them would hold an Israeli passport you cretin :lmao

I know jews that fucking hate israel and some that really don't give a fuck about it

[whottt]

Stop right there...please don't dig your hole any deeper. Your still adhering to all jews being Israelis? There are jews all over the world and a lot of them don't have Israeli passports.

If all jews were israelis then that means that all of them would hold an Israeli passport you cretin :lmao



Idiot...when and where did I state all Jews are Israelis?

[Shastafarian]

Stop right there...please don't dig your hole any deeper. Your still adhering to all jews being Israelis? There are jews all over the world and a lot of them don't have Israeli passports.

If all jews were israelis then that means that all of them would hold an Israeli passport you cretin :lmao

No I think he was making fun of your assertion that not all jews are israelis. He claims you made it seem like "elite knowledge". Don't pay attention to him. He studied the matter more than you or me or bonnington (who has Israeli citizenship and has fought for Israel). He's always right. No one can question whottt's superior intelligence. He is master of OUR domain.

[bonnington]

.

[whottt]

Israel will never be attacked directly with nukes. I don't think it's plausible to think that a "dirty" bomb will ever be set off in Tel Aviv because they would hold the Iranians responsible. Israel has two problems: the Palestinian birthrate and suicide bombers strapping themselves with TNT.

I think you're wrong. I don't think you realize what they teach some of these guys in Islamic Schools...it depends entirely on who the leadership is.

Iran's hostility towards Israel is not becuase they want the land.

The mere presence of Israel undermines the Iranian Govt. They have every reason in the world to want to destroy Israel.

[bonnington]

Exactly, Arabs (or Druze or other minority groups) in Israel are granted full citizenship, but are considered of Arab or in these times of palestinian nationality, since the Israeli nationality is intrinsically Jewish.

And, despite the fact that I speak Spanish, I understood what Whoot meant.

That's the reason I asked if he denied the Shoa, because nothing the Iranian are doing can be compared by the way my family died.

I really think that the Iranians could actually be shocked by the perversion of the Nazis.


Ok no for my question, what does this have to do with my statement that the holocaust would not shock the Iranian leadership? In a region of the world where Israel has twice been attacked on all sides and the Iranians have 30 years now of being sworn to the destruction of Israel?

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

Ok, check out my post quoted above of yours.

[sook]

Ok no for my question, what does this have to do with my statement that the holocaust would not shock the Iranian leadership? In a region of the world where Israel has twice been attacked on all sides and the Iranians have 30 years now of being sworn to the destruction of Israel?

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

Dude your a fucking moron. Someone that has lived there is telling you that don't bring the holocost into this b.c you don't truly understand how bad it was, that his family died in it. If you seriously doubt what someone that has lived there is saying, you should identify with how ignorant you sound

[Findog]

I think you're wrong. I don't think you realize what they teach some of these guys in Islamic Schools...it depends entirely on who the leadership is.

Iran's hostility towards Israel is not becuase they want the land.

The mere presence of Israel undermines the Iranian Govt. They have every reason in the world to want to destroy Israel.

Israel will not survive in its current form as a political entity because of the Arab birth rate. That's inevitable. Israel won't be around in its current form 100 years from now, regardless if they forge a comprehensive peace settlement with the Arab world or not. That doesn't mean there will be a second holocaust and no jews living in the land we currently call Israel. It just means that you won't have the current political structure in place now. So in a sense, the political destruction of Israel is going to happen, regardless of what Iran does or doesn't do. The Iranians and the entire Arab world understands this. It's why they don't have to lob nukes at Israel.

The current leadership in Iran could not be more hostile to Israel. Furthermore, Iran is a very young country ruled by very old hardliners left over from 1979. Every time we rattle sabers and demonize Iran, we make it that much harder for the democracy reform movement in Iran to gain traction. Most of the hardline Islamic ethos resides in the rural countryside, not Tehran. Tehran is fairly cosmopolitan and modern for an Arab capital. The same dynamic applies here: when we felt threatened by al-Q, as a nation we elected martial hardliners in the form of Bush and Cheney, even though their views are anathema to millions of Americans. Same dynamic in Iran, they feel like only the hardliners can protect them.

[whottt]

Ok, check out my post quoted above of yours.

I never denied the holocaust, and I have no idea where you got that from.


The guy who is the President of the country I am saying would not be shocked by the holocaust is the holocaust denier...I am attacking this guy, you are attacking me for attacking and calling me a holocaust denier in the process.


I do not understand your POV, I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

[whottt]

Dude your a fucking moron. Someone that has lived there is telling you that don't bring the holocost into this b.c you don't truly understand how bad it was,

Elie Weisel understands how bad it was, he went through it...and he agrees with me.


So fuck you.


And neither you, nor he, are going to tell me what I can and cannot talk about.

And if you don't like it...you can put me on ignore.






that his family died in it.

I am sorry his family died in the holocaust...but I have literally no idea why in the fuck he thinks I am a holocaust denier.

And I'm not going to defend myself from that accusation either...I suggest he learn to read English better.

[Shastafarian]

I am sorry his family died in the holocaust...but I have literally no idea why in the fuck he thinks I am a holocaust denier.

And I'm not going to defend myself from that accusation either...I suggest he learn to read English better.

He doesn't. You're just an idiot and can't understand what he's trying to say.

[whottt]

Israel will not survive in its current form as a political entity because of the Arab birth rate. That's inevitable. Israel won't be around in its current form 100 years from now, regardless if they forge a comprehensive peace settlement with the Arab world or not. That doesn't mean there will be a second holocaust and no jews living in the land we currently call Israel. It just means that you won't have the current political structure in place now. So in a sense, the political destruction of Israel is going to happen, regardless of what Iran does or doesn't do. The Iranians and the entire Arab world understands this. It's why they don't have to lob nukes at Israel.

I don't know...Europe expected Israel to get wiped off the map in 1947, and the Israelis thought otherwise.




The current leadership in Iran could not be more hostile to Israel.

I agree.




Furthermore, Iran is a very young country ruled by very old hardliners left over from 1979. Every time we rattle sabers and demonize Iran, we make it that much harder for the democracy reform movement in Iran to gain traction.

False...the reformers started pushing too hard for reform, and the Iranian Govt had to become more hardline to stay in power. That's why they got more hardline. Plus, there is absolutely no doubt the US was formenting unrest in Iran from Iraq.




Most of the hardline Islamic ethos resides in the rural countryside, not Tehran. Tehran is fairly cosmopolitan and modern for an Arab capital.

It's not as cosmopolitian as it used to be.



The same dynamic applies here: when we felt threatened by al-Q, as a nation we elected martial hardliners in the form of Bush and Cheney, even though their views are anathema to millions of Americans. Same dynamic in Iran, they feel like only the hardliners can protect them.


If you think Asshole was really elected by the popular vote you are on crack. When governments become more brutal towards their own people(which is what has happened), it's because they are having more difficulty staying in power, not because people are wanting them to become more brutal because of fear of an outside threat.

Bush and Cheney didn't become more brutal towards Americsns...the Iranian Govt has become more brutal towards Iranians.

Asshole was made President to teach the Iranian people a lesson...not because the Iranian people were afraid of us.

[whottt]

He doesn't. You're just an idiot and can't understand what he's trying to say.

Right...I have no fucking clue what he is trying to say...what I do know is that he is defending a holocaust denier and asking me if I am one in the process...when I had family in that fucking war.

Idiot.

So he can take his opinion and stick it up his goddamn fucking ass...and so can you.






That's the reason I asked if he denied the Shoa

[Shastafarian]

Right...I have no fucking clue what he is trying to say...what I do know is that he is defending a holocaust denier and asking me if I am one in the process...when I had family in that fucking war.


Nope, still wrong. You act as if you are the only one who had family in that war. You act as if you are all knowing on the matter of Israel. Please, tell me how you came upon such knowledge.

[Shastafarian]

From my understanding he is asking how you can trivialize the holocaust by saying it wouldn't shock Iranians. There. Happy?

[whottt]

Nope, still wrong. You act as if you are the only one who had family in that war. You act as if you are all knowing on the matter of Israel. Please, tell me how you came upon such knowledge.

Simple:

#1. I'm an anthropologist and I studied a lot of world history when it was my minor. And I have spent a lot of time studying this particular issu although it was never my primary focus of study. I am currently working on my PHD.

#2. My ex-wife was Jewish, and a citizen of both Israel and the US.


#3. Her Grandmother who born in Germany, who I met many times and lived in Israel full time prior to her death, was an actual child Holocaust survivor.

#4. All 4 of my Grandparents were born in Europe and immigrated to America as children prior to WWI.(3 from Germany 1 from England)My German born Grandfather fought in Europe in WWII.


As for the Muslim perspective and the way Shias and Sunnis see each other:

#5. I also dated a girl who was from Pakistan and is of Saudi descent, and man does she have some stories from the Sunni Muslim(she's an atheist now) side of things. She has a lot of strories to tell...being raped as 4 year old and told it was her fault, and her dad didn't even fire the guy who raped her. She was institutionalized(for wanting her own career) for disobeying her parents..her Dad and brothers beat the shit out of her(while her mother held her down). Her husband took her child from her and divorced her and she hasn't seen him in 17 or so years.

And her family is liberal by Pakistani standards...after all, they didn't kill her for dating me, they just disowned her.


And you should hear the stories she tells about the Muslims in this country...the moderate ones, she can't stand 90% of them because they talk shit about this country and celebrate it's tragedies, and they only do business with other Muslims. She says they are the most racist and bigoted people on Earth. And she has no fucking idea why they want to live here when they hate this country so much.



#6. One of my best friends growing up was a Christian Iranian immigrant whose family fled Iran during the Islamic Revolution. He makes me look like a lefty. He and his family consider the overthrow of the Shah the worst thing that ever happened to Iran. And they can't wait for the day this abomination of a Govt is overthrown. They feel Iran was set back several centuries.


#7,. I'm pretty sure I'm also the only one in this thread that's read the Torah, the Bible and Quran from cover to cover. Fuck...I bet I'm the only one that's read the Bible from cover to cover.

#8. I have had this sort of argument in this forum dozens of times over the past 4 years, and every time I learn something new.

Anything else?

[Findog]

#6. One of my best friends growing up was a Christian Iranian immigrant whose family fled Iran during the Islamic Revolution. He makes me look like a lefty. He and his family consider the overthrow of the Shah the worst thing that ever happened to Iran. And they can't wait for the day this abomination of a Govt is overthrown. They feel Iran was set back several centuries

One dictatorship giving way to another, just like Cuba. Did your friend approve of the Shah's regime?

[whottt]

Bonnnington, here's Nobel Peace Prize Winner, Author and Holocaust Suvivor Elie Weisel with his thoughts on Asshole.

You might be familiar with him since his novel on the Holocaust, Night, was first published in Argentina:

mfMv1KWT2bU



While I won't claim he agrees with me...he damn sure doesn't agree with you either.

[whottt]

One dictatorship giving way to another, just like Cuba. Did your friend approve of the Shah's regime?


He doesn't think the Shah was a dictator to anyone who wasn't a radical Islamic asshole trying to overthrow him. He thinks the Shah was a quite benevolent ruler, who very much wanted to establish a Democracy but couldn't due to the Soviet backed Islamicist movement. He pretty much thinks the country was the Jewel of the Mid-east along with Lebanon during that time. He says it was very Westernized and modern under the Shah. The whole ME was back then. He swears up and down that there was nothing oppresssive about the Shah's rule to the average Iranian.

[sook]

Simple:



#6. One of my best friends growing up was a Christian Iranian immigrant whose family fled Iran during the Islamic Revolution. He makes me look like a lefty. He and his family consider the overthrow of the Shah the worst thing that ever happened to Iran. And they can't wait for the day this abomination of a Govt is overthrown. They feel Iran was set back several centuries.



Anything else?

I'm iranian and at least you have one thing right.

BTW The CIA were the ones that overthrew the Shah, its true. My dad always says it too, iran was a very modern country and it has gone backwards

[whottt]

I'm iranian and at least you have one thing right.

BTW The CIA were the ones that overthrew the Shah, its true. My dad always says it too, iran was a very modern country and it has gone backwards



Why in the hell would the CIA overthrow the Shah? They're the ones that put him back in power in the first place.

[sook]

.

[sook]

Why in the hell would the CIA overthrow the Shah? They're the ones that put him back in power in the first place.

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/8/25/50_years_after_the_cias_first
I meant the democratic gov. that was there before the shah, srry.

We did it to stop a major oil deal between the m and the ussr.


Pretty stupid though right? We toppled the gov to instate a dictatorship.

[Findog]

Why in the hell would the CIA overthrow the Shah? They're the ones that put him back in power in the first place.

I don't believe the CIA overthrew the Shah, but it's also true that the Shah had to go to great lengths to demonstrate to his own people that he wasn't a Western puppet.

[whottt]

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/8/25/50_years_after_the_cias_first
I meant the democratic gov. that was there before the shah, srry.

We did it to stop a major oil deal between the m and the ussr.


Pretty stupid though right? We toppled the gov to instate a dictatorship.


IF the Shah was a dictator then why did he allow the Democratic Elections in the first place?

He wasn't a dictator. He continually tried to institute Democracy there and the problem was that when he attempted it the Soviets were going to annex Iran.


It's was a choice of our weed or the Soviets.

And BTW, that was a British plan to put the Shah back in power. After all...they put him and his father in power in the first place.


Bottom line and what I continually tell all the good liberals on this forum as they are lecturing me on how evil we are...

The Mid-Easterners are not savages incapable of grasping Democracy, indeed, 50 years ago many of the countries in the ME were Constitutional Monarchies...prior to WWI the Ottoman Empire was one of the most sophisticated regions of the World for centuries, most of that more advanced than the West...over 3000 years ago in what is now called Iraq the first form of Democracy was invented.

Savages indeed.


No, the problem with the ME is that were caught first laid out by the colonial era of Europe, and then were caught up in the middle of every major war of the 20th century...Wars America was drug into as Europe fought over it's mineral wealth. WWI, WWII, and then our proxy war with the Russians, the Cold War.


You look at any corner of the globe right now with a corrupt government and that is a humanitarian shithole, and you will see former European Colony. Whethere you are in Asia, or the ME, or Africa, or even South America.


That Saudi rule was put in place by the British, the Palestinians and Israel were promised the same piece of land by the British...and the Arabs were expected to finish off what Hitler had started.

The British and the French hated the Jews every bit as much as the Germans did...that's why Hitler was allowed to become powerful in the first place...it wasn't until Hiltler started coming for their countries that they began to have problems with him.

Those Jews in Israel were never expected to survive the formation of Israel...they were supposed to be slaughtered and the British and the French were going to chalk it up to those savage Arabs being savage Arabs.

Things got fucked up when the Jews weren't exterminated...then came the coldwar and every attempt at Democracy was countered with Soviet interference...the Baathists are a good example of this.


So now that we over there, trying to fix what Europe broke...I'd just like one time to see a Mid-Eastern leader separate us from Europe when they call us the West...


Our legacy is being the first to rise up against Colonial England...our Legacy is post WWII Europe and Japan....it is not the same as the European Legacy...we do not believe in the aristocrat/peasantry system...that is Europes system...that is still Europes system. That is the UN system...


That is what Obama and the UN and Europe will represent. You guys remember that when casting your votes...


They will never fix anything in the ME...they'll just say their savages that brought this all upon themselves. And that region of the world is going to continue to backslide into the medieval era...it is going to be produce an inordinate amount of angry pissed off human castoffs, and those governments will continue to direct that anger outward. Away from themselves...


This is why Iraq has to be successful...I don't give a fuck how wrong we were going in...we damn sure better be right coming out. The alternative is Afghanistan part 2...with Petro Dollars...and nukes.

[Kamnik]

I watched the debate....

I can say 1 thing for sure. If McCain gets elected the view of America in the world will stay the same. He will not be much diferent as Bush. (some of the things he said were absurds)

Obama would restore the reputation of USA in the world for sure. And that would also make America safer because the religious fanatics dont get enough "fuel" through hate towards the states from the people. (u get my point; horrible sentence :) )

McCain = 80% Bush
Obama = 80% Clinton


But even if McCain is elected he cant probably be as horrible as Bush was.

[bonnington]

Israel will not survive in its current form as a political entity because of the Arab birth rate. That's inevitable. Israel won't be around in its current form 100 years from now, regardless if they forge a comprehensive peace settlement with the Arab world or not. That doesn't mean there will be a second holocaust and no jews living in the land we currently call Israel. It just means that you won't have the current political structure in place now. So in a sense, the political destruction of Israel is going to happen, regardless of what Iran does or doesn't do. The Iranians and the entire Arab world understands this. It's why they don't have to lob nukes at Israel.

The current leadership in Iran could not be more hostile to Israel. Furthermore, Iran is a very young country ruled by very old hardliners left over from 1979. Every time we rattle sabers and demonize Iran, we make it that much harder for the democracy reform movement in Iran to gain traction. Most of the hardline Islamic ethos resides in the rural countryside, not Tehran. Tehran is fairly cosmopolitan and modern for an Arab capital. The same dynamic applies here: when we felt threatened by al-Q, as a nation we elected martial hardliners in the form of Bush and Cheney, even though their views are anathema to millions of Americans. Same dynamic in Iran, they feel like only the hardliners can protect them.

I understand what you say, but birthrate alone won't do it, more if there is a peace agreement.

I am not so sure that the Arabs from Israel would be a majority in Israel in the next 100 years .

I would like to see some serious studies about what you say.


I never denied the holocaust, and I have no idea where you got that from.


The guy who is the President of the country I am saying would not be shocked by the holocaust is the holocaust denier...I am attacking this guy, you are attacking me for attacking and calling me a holocaust denier in the process.


I do not understand your POV, I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

Look Whottt, By saying that Iran president wouldn't be "shocked" by anything Hitler did, you were comparing Iran with the Nazi Germany.

Since the Iran regime is not like the Nazi regime, then I was wondering if you were fully aware of what the Shoa actually was............or if you were one of those Holocaust deniers, to whom the Holocaust was just a hard and tight political regime.

I think is pretty clear. Since you are not an Holocaust denier, then you should learn more about it before comparing the perversion of the Nazis with any other dictatorship, because it is a way of dismiss the importance of the holocaust.

I am not attacking you, I am trying you to understand that the words the politicians say, are easy words, but are not true words.

Do not get caught on that easiness.




Elie Weisel understands how bad it was, he went through it...and he agrees with me.


So fuck you.


And neither you, nor he, are going to tell me what I can and cannot talk about.

And if you don't like it...you can put me on ignore.






I am sorry his family died in the holocaust...but I have literally no idea why in the fuck he thinks I am a holocaust denier.

And I'm not going to defend myself from that accusation either...I suggest he learn to read English better.

Elie Wiesel is not the only survivor out there, and I don't agree with his political view.

Iran can go to the war to Israel, they even can put a "dirty" bomb in Israel and kill a lot ( or worse) of my people, but there is no way Israel can successfully destroy Iran's Nuclear program, and there is no way the US can go and do that without destroying Iran completely.

The only way is peace between Israel and the Arabs countries and the isolation of Iran.

That's the only way.

And is not a matter of English, is a matter of logic.

You are using the holocaust in a cheap way, so you are not educated on the holocaust or are denier, it's rather simple.

[ElNono]

You look at any corner of the globe right now with a corrupt government and that is a humanitarian shithole, and you will see former European Colony. Whethere you are in Asia, or the ME, or Africa, or even South America.


Maybe the fact that Europe discovered America has something to do with that? :rolleyes

[AFBlue]

I watched the debate....

I can say 1 thing for sure. If McCain gets elected the view of America in the world will stay the same. He will not be much diferent as Bush. (some of the things he said were absurds)

Obama would restore the reputation of USA in the world for sure. And that would also make America safer because the religious fanatics dont get enough "fuel" through hate towards the states from the people. (u get my point; horrible sentence :) )

McCain = 80% Bush
Obama = 80% Clinton


But even if McCain is elected he cant probably be as horrible as Bush was.

Thanks for the international perspective...:toast

[whottt]

Look Whottt, By saying that Iran president wouldn't be "shocked" by anything Hitler did, you were comparing Iran with the Nazi Germany.

I sure was...in fact I saying he is worse, Hitler didn't and couldn't talk about openly exterminating the Jews until well into WWII.

Asshole does it now...easily and openly, for "domestic consumption".


I am sorry but if that's domestic consumption then you have a problem my friend.



Since the Iran regime is not like the Nazi regime, then I was wondering if you were fully aware of what the Shoa actually was............or if you were one of those Holocaust deniers, to whom the Holocaust was just a hard and tight political regime.

Yeah and I don't think you know what happened in the Islamic Revolution and what the rhetoric is now.









Elie Wiesel is not the only survivor out there, and I don't agree with his political view.

He doesn't agree with yours, and he is a holocaust survivor.






Iran can go to the war to Israel, they even can put a "dirty" bomb in Israel and kill a lot ( or worse) of my people, but there is no way Israel can successfully destroy Iran's Nuclear program, and there is no way the US can go and do that without destroying Iran completely.

The only way is peace between Israel and the Arabs countries and the isolation of Iran.

That's the only way.

Yeah...good luck with that, those people are shitty leaders whose people would like to overthrow them...hating of the Jews is used as cause for uniting the angry masses and deflecting that anger...


IF you think it is going to stop any time soon...you are in denial.


For it to stop those governments have to stop being shitty...since a huge part of what makes them shitty is that they refuse any will of the people, you've got a problem.


The more you sanction and isolate BTW, the easier it gets to point the finger at Israel being the cause.





And is not a matter of English, is a matter of logic.

You are using the holocaust in a cheap way, so you are not educated on the holocaust or are denier, it's rather simple.

No it's a simple analysis of what is done in Iran vs what was done in Germany, the only difference is the scale. That is the only difference.


They execute children, they seize property(they seized a lot of it) they exectute gays, they execute people for religious reasons.


The only thing they are missing are ovens and disection tables....


But asshole already has something Hitler never did until he was at the height of his power and in a World War...the freedom to openly talk about exterminating Jews.


For "Domestic Consumption".

[Shastafarian]

So whottt, where did you obtain all this knowledge on Israel. I'm rather curious.

[MannyIsGod]

A new USA Today/Gallup Poll (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=5902766&page=1) shows 46% of people who watched Friday night's presidential debate say Sen. Barack Obama did a better job than Sen. John McCain; 34% said McCain did better.

copied from politicalwire.com

[MannyIsGod]

Every piece of public opinion research - whether focus group or poll - has declared Obama the winner.

[ChumpDumper]

That's why you can't believe them. :spin

[whottt]

Every piece of public opinion research - whether focus group or poll - has declared Obama the winner.

Patently false

Here's a Survey USA Poll in Washington where Obama was soundly defeated:



http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=32306



PA Focus Group(unscientific but technically they all are, and so are the polls):

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-decide27-2008sep27,0,3499980.story





I am sorry but Obama did not beat McCain, he agreed with him, he forgot a soldiers name on his bracelet, and then mentioned it, something the kids parants have asked him to stop doing. McCain had a much more detailed knowledge of Georgia, Iraq, Afhganistan and regions of Pakistan having actually been there. The only way udecideds could have thought Obama won that debate is if they are afraid of being called racists or are completely ignroant on foreign policy. And while Obama did manage to piss McCain off once...Obama spent a lot more time pissed off than McCain.

[MannyIsGod]

K - enjoy your PA and WA victories. My bad.

[Shastafarian]

I am sorry but Obama did not beat McCain
opinion

he agreed with him
On common sense statements McCain made. He disagreed with him on policy and pretty much everything else

he forgot a soldiers name on his bracelet
No proof of that

something the kids parants have asked him to stop doing
Source? Or are you just full of shit yet again?

McCain had a much more detailed knowledge of Georgia, Iraq, Afhganistan and regions of Pakistan
opinion

having actually been there.
You ever been to Israel?

The only way udecideds could have thought Obama won that debate is if they are afraid of being called racists or are completely ignroant on foreign policy.
opinion

And while Obama did manage to piss McCain off once
Were you watching? McCain was pissed off the entire night. He wouldn't even look at Obama

Obama spent a lot more time pissed off than McCain.
opinion yet again

[whottt]

There were others...Obama won the high profile ones but then so did Kerry.

[hypocriteafarian]

I am sorry but Obama did not beat McCain, he agreed with him, he forgot a soldiers name on his bracelet, and then mentioned it, something the kids parants have asked him to stop doing. McCain had a much more detailed knowledge of Georgia, Iraq, Afhganistan and regions of Pakistan having actually been there. The only way udecideds could have thought Obama won that debate is if they are afraid of being called racists or are completely ignroant on foreign policy. And while Obama did manage to piss McCain off once...Obama spent a lot more time pissed off than McCain.

Come on big guy don't try and pass your opinion off as fact. That's just being hypocritical when you rail on others for doing the same...and I should know cuz my name is hypocriteafarian!!!

[timvp]

McCain technically won the debate if you want to judge the actual content. Then again, he had the topic advantage. On most points, the only thing Obama could do was pin McCain to Bush ... which would be more effective if bashing Bush hadn't become cliche. Bashing Bush when no one stands by him anymore and even McCain has thrown him under the bus has limited sticking power.

Then again, even though McCain might have technically won, and most polls say Obama won ... I don't think there is a way to judge how the debates will affect how people will vote until a week or so before the election. Bush supposedly lost the debates but then magically got a big bounce right after the debate period ended. Before the bounce, the Democrats were polishing the seal for Kerry (and Gore, for that matter).

The technical winner or the poll winner of the debates don't really mean much, IMO. It's more who comes out at the end seeming like the candidate Average Joe can relate to and believe in.

[whottt]

Come on big guy don't try and pass your opinion off as fact. That's just being hypocritical when you rail on others for doing the same...and I should know cuz my name is hypocriteafarian!!!


Link to me trying to pass that off as fact? Most of the facts point towards Obama winning...that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I call BS.

[Bartleby]

The technical winner or the poll winner of the debates don't really mean much, IMO. It's more who comes out at the end seeming like the candidate Average Joe can relate to and believe in.

While I agree this election could still swing either way, I'm not sure the American public is all that eager to go with another average Joe (or John) considering we just had eight years under a guy who also sold himself as an average Joe and that hasn't gone so well.

Admittedly, I may be overestimating how deeply the current of anti-intellectualism runs in this country, but I guess we'll see in November.

[hypocriteafarian]

Link to me trying to pass that off as fact? Most of the facts point towards Obama winning...that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I call BS.

I am sorry but Obama did not beat McCain, he agreed with him, he forgot a soldiers name on his bracelet, and then mentioned it, something the kids parants have asked him to stop doing. McCain had a much more detailed knowledge of Georgia, Iraq, Afhganistan and regions of Pakistan having actually been there. The only way udecideds could have thought Obama won that debate is if they are afraid of being called racists or are completely ignroant on foreign policy. And while Obama did manage to piss McCain off once...Obama spent a lot more time pissed off than McCain.

[Bartleby]

And while Obama did manage to piss McCain off once...Obama spent a lot more time pissed off than McCain.

If you're going to focus on temperament I'd say Obama winds by default. McCain's refusal to look him in the eye made him seem petty and weak.

[whottt]

I am sorry but Obama did not beat McCain, he agreed with him, he forgot a soldiers name on his bracelet

Gdmywc39XD0


Fact.




McCain had a much more detailed knowledge of Georgia, Iraq, Afhganistan and regions of Pakistan having actually been there.

Easily a common sense fact due McCain actually going to those places and the descriptions given during the debate.

If you are talking about Iraq well fair enough he has been there, but he hasn't been to as many regions as McCain.




The only way udecideds could have thought Obama won that debate is if they are afraid of being called racists or are completely ignroant on foreign policy.

Have no idea why ou would conclude I am presenting this as anything other than opinion.



And while Obama did manage to piss McCain off once...Obama spent a lot more time pissed off than McCain.

Amazingly enough you didn't attempt to refute this segment or claim it was opinion being presented as fact...I wonder why.

[hypocriteafarian]

Gdmywc39XD0


Fact.
So you know he looked at the bracelet to look at the name?






Easily a common sense fact due McCain actually going to those places and the descriptions given during the debate.

Going to places doesn't equal more knowledge about them. That is NOT a fact. Maybe we should have a pop quiz for the candidates to settle this. Maybe you can point to specific instances where McCain's knowledge exceeded that of Obama.






Have no idea why ou would conclude I am presenting this as anything other than opinion. This phrase: "The only way..."






Amazingly enough you didn't attempt to refute this segment or claim it was opinion being presented as fact...I wonder why.
I wanted to give you a break. I would've had to bold and italicize the entire paragraph.

[whottt]

So you know he looked at the bracelet to look at the name?

Yes.









Going to places doesn't equal more knowledge about them.

Depends. In this case it did as was apparent in the descriptions. Obama could not describe what things looked like on the ground from Georgia and the Afghani Pakistani border region while McCain could. that equals details.
That equals knowledge.

Keep in mind just for the sake of argument, while it may possible Obama does have a greater knowledge(and without a doubt he doesn't), he didn't show it in this debate.

By the way, it's hilarious that you would make that point in this thread.





That is NOT a fact. Maybe we should have a pop quiz for the candidates to settle this. Maybe you can point to specific instances where McCain's knowledge exceeded that of Obama.

By all means...






This phrase: "The only way..."


You're kidding right?







I wanted to give you a break. I would've had to bold and italicize the entire paragraph.


Well it was never intended to be taken as anything other than my opinion...the fact that every thing that could be reasonbly construed as me stating a fact was in fact a fact, is just merely gravy and a tribute to the routine excellence of my posts.


Fact.

[Biernutz]

I am sorry but Obama did not beat McCain, he agreed with him, he forgot a soldiers name on his bracelet, and then mentioned it, something the kids parants have asked him to stop doing. McCain had a much more detailed knowledge of Georgia, Iraq, Afhganistan and regions of Pakistan having actually been there. The only way udecideds could have thought Obama won that debate is if they are afraid of being called racists or are completely ignroant on foreign policy. And while Obama did manage to piss McCain off once...Obama spent a lot more time pissed off than McCain.



Why is he still wearing the bracelet? The mother has asked him to take it off.

http://www.dehavelle.com/2008/09/barack-obamas-bracelet/

[whottt]

This phrase: "The only way..."




Fuck...I can't believe I missed this hanging curve.

#1. That wasn't the part you italicized for emphasis.

#2. The part you did italicize for emphasis contained the word "if" which almost always indicates a speculation or an assumption......the exact opposite of facts.

Horrible example on your part.

Fact.

[hypocriteafarian]

Fuck...I can't believe I missed this hanging curve.

#1. That wasn't the part you italicized for emphasis.

#2. The part you did italicize for emphasis contained the word "if" which almost always indicates a speculation or an assumption......the exact opposite of facts.

Horrible example on your part.

Fact.

Let's examine it shall we?

"The only way udecideds could have thought Obama won that debate is if they are afraid of being called racists or are completely ignroant on foreign policy."

I only italicized the latter portion to show how ridiculous of a statement it was. My mistake. Next time I'll italicize/bold the entire thing and underline the more ridiculous parts.

Now let's look at your assertion that "if" denotes speculation or assumption. If introduces a conditional clause. In many cases it is related to speculation or assumption. Your use of "if" is indeed an assumption. However, it is an assumption that only speaks to modify the intelligence and thoughts of the people you are talking about. My claim that you state opinion as fact has nothing to do with that assumption. You could have said, "if they are afraid of being labeled geniuses" and you would still be parlaying your opinion as fact.

[Shastafarian]

Why is he still wearing the bracelet? The mother has asked him to take it off.

http://www.dehavelle.com/2008/09/barack-obamas-bracelet/

Maybe because that piece is a shameless lie?

POSTED: Sunday, September 28, 2008 --- 4:40 p.m.

MILWAUKEE (AP) -- The mother of a Wisconsin soldier who died in Iraq says she was "ecstatic" during Friday's debate when Senator Barack Obama mentioned the bracelet she gave him in honor of her son.

Tracy Jopek of Merrill told The Associated Press on Sunday she was honored that he remembered Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, who was killed in 2006 by a roadside bomb.

She criticized Internet reports that suggested Obama exploited her son for political purposes.

She acknowledges e-mailing the campaign in February asking that Obama not mention her son in speeches or debates.

But she says Obama's mention on Friday was appropriate because he was responding after Senator John McCain said a soldier's mother gave him a bracelet.

Jopek says Obama's comment rightfully suggested there's more than one viewpoint on the war.

http://www.nbc15.com/state/headlines/29864149.html

Bryan Jopek's interview was given back in March 2008, NOT AFTER THE DEBATE. The story on DrudgeReport gives the impression that he gave the interview after the 1st debate........by the way, the mother is an Obama supporter and the ex-husband is a McCain supporter

[Cry Havoc]

Maybe because that piece is a shameless lie?

POSTED: Sunday, September 28, 2008 --- 4:40 p.m.

MILWAUKEE (AP) -- The mother of a Wisconsin soldier who died in Iraq says she was "ecstatic" during Friday's debate when Senator Barack Obama mentioned the bracelet she gave him in honor of her son.

Tracy Jopek of Merrill told The Associated Press on Sunday she was honored that he remembered Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, who was killed in 2006 by a roadside bomb.

She criticized Internet reports that suggested Obama exploited her son for political purposes.

She acknowledges e-mailing the campaign in February asking that Obama not mention her son in speeches or debates.

But she says Obama's mention on Friday was appropriate because he was responding after Senator John McCain said a soldier's mother gave him a bracelet.

Jopek says Obama's comment rightfully suggested there's more than one viewpoint on the war.

http://www.nbc15.com/state/headlines/29864149.html

Bryan Jopek's interview was given back in March 2008, NOT AFTER THE DEBATE. The story on DrudgeReport gives the impression that he gave the interview after the 1st debate........by the way, the mother is an Obama supporter and the ex-husband is a McCain supporter


Hahahaha.

Pure win. Keep up the lies and slants, McCain supporters. You're really doing a good job of convincing the people who are undecided on this forum to vote for Obama.

[Biernutz]

Maybe because that piece is a shameless lie?

POSTED: Sunday, September 28, 2008 --- 4:40 p.m.

MILWAUKEE (AP) -- The mother of a Wisconsin soldier who died in Iraq says she was "ecstatic" during Friday's debate when Senator Barack Obama mentioned the bracelet she gave him in honor of her son.

Tracy Jopek of Merrill told The Associated Press on Sunday she was honored that he remembered Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, who was killed in 2006 by a roadside bomb.

She criticized Internet reports that suggested Obama exploited her son for political purposes.

She acknowledges e-mailing the campaign in February asking that Obama not mention her son in speeches or debates.

But she says Obama's mention on Friday was appropriate because he was responding after Senator John McCain said a soldier's mother gave him a bracelet.

Jopek says Obama's comment rightfully suggested there's more than one viewpoint on the war.

http://www.nbc15.com/state/headlines/29864149.html

Bryan Jopek's interview was given back in March 2008, NOT AFTER THE DEBATE. The story on DrudgeReport gives the impression that he gave the interview after the 1st debate........by the way, the mother is an Obama supporter and the ex-husband is a McCain supporter


The mother did ask Obama not to mention her son anymore in an E-mail to him. She never got a answer to the e-mail. The father said they wanted Obama to take it off. He is now stationed in Cuba and until we hear his side of things this is still a he said she said. A shameless lie --I don't think so!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-obama-bracelet,0,6413408.story

[Cry Havoc]

The mother did ask Obama not to mention her son anymore in an E-mail to him. She never got a answer to the e-mail. The father said they wanted Obama to take it off. He is now stationed in Cuba and until we hear his side of things this is still a he said she said.

Wow. That definitely explains the article. :rolleyes

My goodness, you choose to believe a lie when the facts are staring you in the face. Pathetic.