House votes down massive bailout measure

[LakeShow]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26884523/

[RandomGuy]

Oh Shit.

[RandomGuy]

Dow has been down as much as 700 today, and stabilized about 350 down for the afternoon.


As soon as this news hit the market, it plummeted to 530 down as of this post.

This could well be the largest single point loss of the Dow Jones Average ever.

I know a few conspiracy theorists who will be jumping up and down saying "THEY'RE GOING TO HERD US INTO FEMA DEATH CAMPS NOW, AREN'T YOU HAPPY!"

Hopefully they will head to the hills to avoid this and get eaten by bears.

[cool hand]

the real republicans showed up today.

[JoeChalupa]

Here we go.

[DarrinS]

Isn't it good news that they just didn't reflexively throw money at this problem?

[cool hand]

very good news.

[101A]

This is outstanding.

DURING A presidential election - at nut cutting time; A SERIOUS financial crisis.

Congress is impotent. President is lame duck.

Does this bailout REALLY need to happen? Calls into congressional offices are running 100 to 1 against; but the people don't know wtf; they're just pissed. Congressment "don't want to lose theirs jobs" (btw, asshole congressmen; you're supposed to be their to serve the people; you should have a real job back home for when you're done).

Anyway, their are TWO individuals who have dominated the news for a couple of months. THEY, RIGHT NOW, are the only political leaders this country has. If this is so damned important - THEY are going to have to go out on a limb, speak to the American people, and get it done. AT LEAST one of them HAS to step up, take the bull by the horns, get on his bully pulpit, and get enough Americans behind this to jam it through. Either one could call a news conference and at least attempt to do so.

My predeiction? Both a couple of self-important, power hungry pussies. Even though they EACH know it NEEDS to happen, neither one is going to go out on limb. If neither tries to fix this in a real, substantive way. Neither deserves the presidency.

That, or maybe this really isn't that important for anyone outside of WalStreet?!

[KenMcCoy]

I'm glad some of them finally listened to their constituents...I'd been hearing numbers of almost 10-1 against the bill. I also haven't seen a single economist who thinks that this will FIX the problem, and the ones who I have seen aren't too sure what will/will not happen if the bailout is passed/not passed.

[cool hand]

what's not so funney is how close it was........the nay votes represent the people the yea votes represent the $$$$$$ and slime........amazing the people won out.

[JoeChalupa]

I heard one rep say that although this is a risky venture he would vote for it and not risk the futures of his kids and grandchildren even though it would not be a popular vote.

[JoeChalupa]

Those damn republican bastards!!!

[JoeChalupa]

I'm glad some of them finally listened to their constituents...I'd been hearing numbers of almost 10-1 against the bill. I also haven't seen a single economist who thinks that this will FIX the problem, and the ones who I have seen aren't too sure what will/will not happen if the bailout is passed/not passed.

Now if only they would listen their constituents when it comes to other issues like the Iraq war.

[whottt]

Those damn republican bastards!!!

Bush is totally in with the Democrats and Obama on this one....careful who you call a Republican.

[SnakeBoy]

the real republicans showed up today.

:) Finally.

Tweety is on msnbc bitching about the republicans killing the deal. LOL

[KenMcCoy]

Hey the dems have the majority...so they couldn't even get their own party in line.

[JoeChalupa]

Bush is totally in with the Democrats and Obama on this one....careful who you call a Republican.

But he's always been a bastard.

[whottt]

Hey the dems have the majority...so they couldn't even get their own party in line.



All the coroporate money is behind the Democrats on this...every last bit of it. The fact that the Republicans are going against that and executing the will of their constituents does loads for their credibility. Redemption.

[RandomGuy]

Hey the dems have the majority...so they couldn't even get their own party in line.

Both ends of the spectrum hated the idea.

(shrugs)

We'll see. I didn't like it, but know that it was the least bad option.

I can only hope that no bailout happens and we get our wish.

We aren't going to like the result.

[whottt]

Both ends of the spectrum hated the idea.

(shrugs)

We'll see. I didn't like it, but know that it was the least bad option.

I can only hope that no bailout happens and we get our wish.

We aren't going to like the result.

I heard that the banks were already planning on asking for more for their mortgage backed securities from the government than they were worth....they were going to eff the American Taxpayer.

For such a fan of altruism you should be celebrating this vote down...when the banks stop being greedy then they deserve to be bailed out.

Make no mistake about it...the Republicans are the ones trying to make this bill work for the American Tax Payer so they don't get screwed by Wall Street.

[RandomGuy]

I'm glad some of them finally listened to their constituents...I'd been hearing numbers of almost 10-1 against the bill. I also haven't seen a single economist who thinks that this will FIX the problem, and the ones who I have seen aren't too sure what will/will not happen if the bailout is passed/not passed.

It all depends on what the foreigners do who are holding a vast amount of US debt.

If they start looking elsewhere.

My guess is a self-sustaining negative feeback loop. Bad thing A causes Bad Things B and C, that cause more of Bad Thing A, etc.

As I have said, we'll see. Dow Jones Ave looks to be closing around 600 points down.

That means that virtually all of the gains for the stocks in that average (holding aside that the composition has changed somewhat) for the last 8-9 years have been wiped out.

[RandomGuy]

I heard that the banks were already planning on asking for more for their mortgage backed securities from the government than they were worth....they were going to eff the American Taxpayer.

For such a fan of altruism you should be celebrating this vote down...when the banks stop being greedy then they deserve to be bailed out.

Make no mistake about it...the Republicans are the ones trying to make this bill work for the American Tax Payer so they don't get screwed by Wall Street.

:rolleyes

You say that but all I hear is : :blah:blah:blah:blah:blah

I guess we can all go to the ballot box this fall and blame our scapegoat of choice.

[Galileo]

Ron Paul strikes again!

[MannyIsGod]

It all depends on what the foreigners do who are holding a vast amount of US debt.

If they start looking elsewhere.

My guess is a self-sustaining negative feeback loop. Bad thing A causes Bad Things B and C, that cause more of Bad Thing A, etc.

As I have said, we'll see. Dow Jones Ave looks to be closing around 600 points down.

That means that virtually all of the gains for the stocks in that average (holding aside that the composition has changed somewhat) for the last 8-9 years have been wiped out.

That pipe is closed. They've alraedy said there will be no more investment until this bill is passed. How do you think today made them feel? The self sustaining negative feedback loops is exactly WHY there are people so worried adn these fuckers are playing politiacl games. "yaeh we'll vote" "GOTCHA!"

Yeah, you go tell that to your consituants when banks start dropping like flies and in turn companies who rely on short term loans fail to meet payroll and ulitmately fail as well. Gonna be great!

HAHAHAH PELOSI GOT TOLD

Awww shit, no paycheck?

[Wild Cobra]

Bush is totally in with the Democrats and Obama on this one....careful who you call a Republican.
This is another instance I disagree with president Bush on. If he wasn't the lesser of two evils, twice, we might have had a better president!

How many times have I said president Bush was way to liberal for me? McCain is too liberal for me too. Still, the lesser of two evils.

If president Bush was a conservative, he would veto such a bill if passed by congress.

[whottt]

It all depends on what the foreigners do who are holding a vast amount of US debt.

If they start looking elsewhere.

My guess is a self-sustaining negative feeback loop. Bad thing A causes Bad Things B and C, that cause more of Bad Thing A, etc.

As I have said, we'll see. Dow Jones Ave looks to be closing around 600 points down.

That means that virtually all of the gains for the stocks in that average (holding aside that the composition has changed somewhat) for the last 8-9 years have been wiped out.

They should have thought about that before giving out all those bad mortgages. It's on them...not the American Tax Payer. And the market will be back. This country has the best and most reliable financial infrastructure in the entire world...it will continue to remain an attractive market for both foreign and domestic investors.

If our market has to bite the bullet for a while...so be it, sometimes the message is more important than the dollar.

And the banks that are in good standing right now and aren't carrying a ton of bad mortgages are going to get a huge boost in domestic depositors and are going to be an attractive invesemtn for foreign investors.

I don't call it the end...I call it a changing of the guard.


PS: Those mortgages aren't going anywhere...my advice to you is hold.

[KenMcCoy]

As I have said, we'll see. Dow Jones Ave looks to be closing around 600 points down.

That means that virtually all of the gains for the stocks in that average (holding aside that the composition has changed somewhat) for the last 8-9 years have been wiped out.

Shit happens...it'll bounce back. If you don't do the bailout and let the markets run themselves (no forced inflation by manipulating the fed interest rate) the market will be up 10% six months from now.

[whottt]

:rolleyes

You say that but all I hear is : :blah:blah:blah:blah:blah

I guess we can all go to the ballot box this fall and blame our scapegoat of choice.



Didya figure how a Capital Gains tax works yet?


Get back to me when you do...smarty.

[Oh, Gee!!]

wassit say 'bout the prez that his own party dissed him on a bill that he pleaded to get passed and even went on primetime over?

[whottt]

Anyone know what Goldman Sachs is doing today? I'm hoping they drop below 115 and I hope they stay there for the rest of Buffet's life...I want to see Buffet take this one up the ass royally. Kiss that 500 million annual profit out of the pocket of the American Tax Payer goodbye...cocksucker.

[Shastafarian]

Anyone know what Goldman Sachs is doing today? I'm hoping they drop below 115 and I hope they stay there for the rest of Buffet's life...I want to see Buffet take this one up the ass royally. Kiss that 500 million profit out of the pocket of the American Tax Payer goodbye...cocksucker.

Yeah that'll stick it to all those goldman sachs investors too! Those rich fuckers!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Dow dopped 700 points because of the bailout defeat. I wonder who's to blame..

[Shastafarian]

Dow dopped 700 points because of the bailout defeat. I wonder who's to blame..

Congress

[Anti.Hero]

HAHAHAH PELOSI GOT TOLD

Awww shit, no paycheck?

HAHAHA Obama got me a tax cut!

Awww shit, no paycheck???

[temujin]

More of 1929.
Springtime 1929.

It' amazing how history repeats.

Less often than the Spurs in the NBA finals, but still...........

[Anti.Hero]

wassit say 'bout the prez that his own party dissed him on a bill that he pleaded to get passed and even went on primetime over?

haha

Bush : "I'm very dissapointed."


No shit W. Noooo shit.

[RandomGuy]

Shit happens...it'll bounce back. If you don't do the bailout and let the markets run themselves (no forced inflation by manipulating the fed interest rate) the market will be up 10% six months from now.


Down 700 points now...

Honestly, I think the plan was workable and would have had some beneficial effect to mitigate the worst of it.

But hey, let's do it your way and we'll see what really happens. I think you are very very wrong about that, but it is beginning to look like your viewpoint holds sway at the moment.

If nothing happens and the market goes up to 11,000-12,000 in six months you get the bragging rights, I guess.

When it doesn't happen, I will be here saying "I told you so.". See you in March.

[101A]

Michael Moore opposes the bill: (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=235)




Monday, September 29th, 2008
The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore
Friends,
Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/business/22lobby.html) in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:

"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.

"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.

"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.

"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions." Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/09/25/2008-09-25_rudy_giulianis_crass_opportunism_reflect.html) to "consult" in the bailout.
The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.
And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.
Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?
It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/02/business/02insure.html). Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.
This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!
I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop them ourselves. So stop reading this and do something -- NOW! Here's what you can do immediately:
1. Call (http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/newmemberbio.cgi?lang=&member=ILJR&site=ctc&address=&city=&state=IL&zipcode=&plusfour=) or e-mail Senator Obama (http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/contact2). Tell him he does not need to be sitting there trying to help prop up Bush and Cheney and the mess they've made. Tell him we know he has the smarts to slow this thing down and figure out what's the best route to take. Tell him the rich have to pay for whatever help is offered. Use the leverage we have now to insist on a moratorium on home foreclosures, to insist on a move to universal health coverage, and tell him that we the people need to be in charge of the economic decisions that affect our lives, not the barons of Wall Street.
2. Take to the streets. Participate (http://truemajority.wiredforchange.com/event/distributedEventCalendar.jsp) in one of the hundreds of quickly-called demonstrations that are taking place all over the country (especially those near Wall Street and DC).
3. Call your Representative in Congress and your Senators. (click here to find their phone numbers (http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/)). Tell them what you told Senator Obama.
When you screw up in life, there is hell to pay. Each and every one of you reading this knows that basic lesson and has paid the consequences of your actions at some point. In this great democracy, we cannot let there be one set of rules for the vast majority of hard-working citizens, and another set of rules for the elite, who, when they screw up, are handed one more gift on a silver platter. No more! Not again!
Yours,
Michael Moore
[email protected]
MichaelMoore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com/)
P.S. Having read further the details of this bailout bill, you need to know you are being lied to. They talk about how they will prevent golden parachutes. It says NOTHING about what these executives and fat cats will make in SALARY. According to Rep. Brad Sherman of California, these top managers will continue to receive million-dollar-a-month paychecks under this new bill. There is no direct ownership given to the American people for the money being handed over. Foreign banks and investors will be allowed to receive billion-dollar handouts. A large chunk of this $700 billion is going to be given directly to Chinese and Middle Eastern banks. There is NO guarantee of ever seeing that money again.
P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we'll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to call them now (http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/) and say "NO!" If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House. THESE DEMOCRATS ARE ONLY AS STRONG AS THE BACKBONE WE GIVE THEM. CALL CONGRESS NOW (http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/).

I hope that plea to Obama to oppose this works out well for him.

He might try calling McCain.

[RandomGuy]

Didya figure how a Capital Gains tax works yet?


Get back to me when you do...smarty.

:blah:blah:blah

[smeagol]

Michael Moore agrees with whottt.

Hmmm????

[whottt]

That pipe is closed. They've alraedy said there will be no more investment until this bill is passed. How do you think today made them feel? The self sustaining negative feedback loops is exactly WHY there are people so worried adn these fuckers are playing politiacl games. "yaeh we'll vote" "GOTCHA!"

Yeah, you go tell that to your consituants when banks start dropping like flies and in turn companies who rely on short term loans fail to meet payroll and ulitmately fail as well. Gonna be great!

HAHAHAH PELOSI GOT TOLD

Awww shit, no paycheck?


You let me know when the sky hits you Manny...I'm not gonna hold my breath.

[whottt]

This is another instance I disagree with president Bush on. If he wasn't the lesser of two evils, twice, we might have had a better president!

How many times have I said president Bush was way to liberal for me? McCain is too liberal for me too. Still, the lesser of two evils.

If president Bush was a conservative, he would veto such a bill if passed by congress.

Bush isn't a liberal or a conservative...he's a buisnessman. I voted for him because he's a business man who loves America...that was the choice we had.

[smeagol]

People who blame this solely on Wall St. are idiots.

The whole country was living a party, and the party is over. Mains St carries as big of a blame as Wall St.

[whottt]

Michael Moore agrees with whottt.

Hmmm????

It's not a liberal vs conservative thing...it's business vs the people. Moore's an idiot...but he's definitely not a corporate idiot.

[KenMcCoy]

Down 700 points now...

Honestly, I think the plan was workable and would have had some beneficial effect to mitigate the worst of it.

But hey, let's do it your way and we'll see what really happens. I think you are very very wrong about that, but it is beginning to look like your viewpoint holds sway at the moment.

If nothing happens and the market goes up to 11,000-12,000 in six months you get the bragging rights, I guess.

When it doesn't happen, I will be here saying "I told you so.". See you in March.

And what happens if they do pass a bill??? It's not like everything is fine and dandy if the bill passes. Everyone will say "Yaaay!!! we can get credit again!!!" That's what was wrong in the first place. So, not only will people be borrowing like nothing happened (the cause of the problem) but now the dollar will be even more worthless because you just injected 700 Billion into the system.

[SnakeBoy]

Cavuto on the market cleansing itself and killing off the weak right now.

"It's ruthlessly efficient. It's kind of like watching hot dogs being made. It's not a pretty process but it doesn't curb my appetite for hot dogs"

:lol

[smeagol]

It's not a liberal vs conservative thing...it's business vs the people. Moore's an idiot...but he's definitely not a corporate idiot.

Moore's in idiot in the complete sense of the word . . . no caveats.

[MannyIsGod]

You're right Whottt. All of the banks are goign to fail and the people will not feel it. Only Wall St. You're right, the credit industry won't loan out money. The only people that are going to get hurt by this are the corporate execs, not the people who's paychecks rely on thsoe short term loans.

I mean what the fuck do you people think? Honestly?

[1369]

You're right Whottt. All of the banks are goign to fail and the people will not feel it. Only Wall St. You're right, the credit industry won't loan out money. The only people that are going to get hurt by this are the corporate execs, not the people who's paychecks rely on thsoe short term loans.

I mean what the fuck do you people think? Honestly?

All the banks are going to fail?

Damn, guess I need to unearth the mason jars buried in the backyard.

[hater]

:lmao

I think congress now is just fucking with Bush:
"President Bush vowed to "address this economic situation head on." " :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Bush isn't a liberal or a conservative...he's a buisnessman. I voted for him because he's a business man who loves America...that was the choice we had.
You know, I never really thought of it that way. You are 100% right in my view from that perspective. It doesn't change how I feel about him, I always thought he was an honorable man attempting to do what he thinks is right. I just don't agree with him half the time.

[boutons_]

Krugman's blog:

OK, we are a banana republic

House votes no. Rex Nutting has the best line: House to Wall Street: Drop Dead (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/story.aspx?guid=%7B6FCA5CAB%2DBFB5%2D41ED%2D8FBB%2 DB4005F4169DA%7D&siteid=djm_HAMWRSSFirstH). He also correctly places the blame and/or credit with House Republicans. For reasons I’ve already explained (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/bailout-questions-answered/), I don’t think the Dem leadership was in a position to craft a bill that would have achieved overwhelming Democratic support, so make or break was whether enough GOPers would sign on. They didn’t.


I assume Pelosi calls a new vote; but if it fails, then what? I guess write a bill that is actually, you know, a good plan, and try to pass it — though politically it might not make sense to try until after the election.
For now, I’m just going to quote myself (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/demolition-accomplished/):
So what we now have is non-functional government in the face of a major crisis, because Congress includes a quorum of crazies and nobody trusts the White House an inch.

As a friend said last night, we’ve become a banana republic with nukes.

[SnakeBoy]

All of the banks are goign to fail ...
I mean what the fuck do you people think? Honestly?

Honestly, do you actually believe ALL banks are going to fail. You need to stop drinking so much kool aide.

[MannyIsGod]

Bad choice of words on my part. Obviously all the banks are not going to fail. Do all the banks need to fail for this to be an incredibly bad shit storm? No.

[Findog]

You're right Whottt. All of the banks are goign to fail and the people will not feel it. Only Wall St. You're right, the credit industry won't loan out money. The only people that are going to get hurt by this are the corporate execs, not the people who's paychecks rely on thsoe short term loans.

I mean what the fuck do you people think? Honestly?

Exactly. It's distasteful to bail out the super rich, but our fortunes are tied to theirs. Cutting your nose to spite your face and all that.

[Wild Cobra]

Bad choice of words on my part. Obviously all the banks are not going to fail. Do all the banks need to fail for this to be an incredibly bad shit storm? No.
That's why I don't fear it. There are plenty of banks still out there to make loans! Why should we pay off the CEO's who gambled and lost?

[whottt]

You're right Whottt. All of the banks are goign to fail and the people will not feel it. Only Wall St. You're right, the credit industry won't loan out money. The only people that are going to get hurt by this are the corporate execs, not the people who's paychecks rely on thsoe short term loans.

I mean what the fuck do you people think? Honestly?


Materialist.

[Anti.Hero]

Exactly. It's distasteful to bail out the super rich, but our fortunes are tied to theirs.

Interesting.

[Supergirl]

This Washington Post analysis (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/the_failure_of_the_financial.html?nav=rss_blog) makes this interesting point:

"It's no coincidence then that of the 205 Members who voted in support of the bill today, there are only two -- Reps. Chris Shays (R-Conn.) and Jon Porter (R-Nev.) -- who find themselves in difficult reelection races this fall. The list of the 228 "nays" reads like a virtual target list for the two parties."

[smeagol]

The stupidity of some in here is astonishing.

You guys think what happened to day is great?

It will take years foir the US to recover from this and the recovery will not happen without suffering. That suffering can have many levels, but there will be suffering. Maybe, just maybe, the bailout would've had the least level of suffering for the "people".

[PixelPusher]

surfing NRO to gauge GOP opinon on this...


A Moneyman Reacts [Kathryn Jean Lopez] (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZGNiYmU2ZThhNTI1YjU4NjgxMjI3YmExZGU5OWU4YTI=)

An e-mail from a Western-state bank president:

I can only offer the perspective of someone who manages money for a living, rather than someone who follows politics closely.



The failure of the House to pass the bill – combined with the resulting bickering – will likely lead to a substantial market sell-off. We’re seeing part of that occur right now, but we may well see much worse over the coming days as the inevitable sell-off hits overseas markets, followed up by another collapse at home as forced selling really kicks in and many institutional investors are required to liquidate their leveraged positions. While it would be nice if all this was confined to a few select Wall Street bad apples, the reality is ordinary people will be hurt very badly as their investments deteriorate and the economic environment turns even more negative. Unemployment will likely spike sharply from here, and the lack of available credit will impair many small businesses that rely on credit lines to finance their operations.



How any of this could possibly be construed as a positive for either McCain or the Republican Party is beyond me (and I say this as a life-long Republican)? In fact, it would seem much more likely to me that the House Republicans just handed the election to Obama on a silver platter. Blaming the vote on Pelosi’s antagonistic remarks seems especially dumb, and I expect to see Barney Frank-type comments all over the MSM tonight and throughout the week.



No doubt this was a lousy bill – everyone agrees on that. But the consequences of not passing it, or something like it, are going to be far reaching. Clinging to the “small government” mantra as things collapse around us will probably not resonate well with most voters in November.



09/29 04:03 PM

[whottt]

Bad choice of words on my part. Obviously all the banks are not going to fail. Do all the banks need to fail for this to be an incredibly bad shit storm? No.

Do you think those mortgage backed securities are simply going to evaporate?


Or that credit debt?


I hope they do...but somehow I have a feeling that's not going to happen Manny.

[whottt]

The stupidity of some in here is astonishing.

You guys think what happened to day is great?

It will take years foir the US to recover from this and the recovery will not happen without suffering. That suffering can have many levels, but there will be suffering. Maybe, just maybe, the bailout would've had the least level of suffering for the "people".

Coming from a guy whose countries National Rally Cry is DEFAULT...I find your post enormously amusing.

[hater]

That's why I don't fear it. There are plenty of banks still out there to make loans! Why should we pay off the CEO's who gambled and lost?

U do realize banks also borrow from bigger banks to loan money out? So if banks cannot borrow money from their bigger brothers, then they won't loan money. period.

Not to mention now the crisis will move on to jobs being lost now.

So yeah, I think it's a bad thing they did not pass this. We are fucked.

[MannyIsGod]

Whottt and? Whats the point? You think a severe drop in the markets and many companies and banks going under is going to solve that? WTF is your point? its no secret those securities are bad, but having many people lose their jobs does NOTHING to fix that problem.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Bush isn't a liberal or a conservative...he's a buisnessman. I voted for him because he's a business man who loves America...that was the choice we had.

And a dumb businessman at that.

[KenMcCoy]

Exactly. It's distasteful to bail out the super rich, but our fortunes are tied to theirs. Cutting your nose to spite your face and all that.

Wow...never thought I would see Findog agree with trickle down economics...

[MannyIsGod]

That's why I don't fear it. There are plenty of banks still out there to make loans! Why should we pay off the CEO's who gambled and lost?

You're such a fucking idiot. THERE ARE NO BANKS MAKING LOANS RIGHT NOW.

God damn it, I can't take your idiocy anymore. You're going on the ignore list that boutons couldn't even stay on. You're the worst fucking poster here.

[hater]

And a dumb businessman at that.

I would not put Bush in charge of a McDonalds

[BacktoBasics]

You're right Whottt. All of the banks are goign to fail and the people will not feel it. Only Wall St. You're right, the credit industry won't loan out money. The only people that are going to get hurt by this are the corporate execs, not the people who's paychecks rely on thsoe short term loans.

I mean what the fuck do you people think? Honestly?They wouldn't loan out money in the first place. The criteria is through the roof right now. Bailing them out doesn't equate to better lending. That won't change until they fail by not writing enough loans because their criteria shot through the roof.

The meat of the money is middle of the road credit. Which is now nearly completely eliminated. The bailout doesn't reverse the criteria to get loans.

Which is why they need to fail for full on reform vs. helping out a cause thats already in a mode that won't change.

[DarkReign]

The stupidity of some in here is astonishing.

You guys think what happened to day is great?

It will take years foir the US to recover from this and the recovery will not happen without suffering. That suffering can have many levels, but there will be suffering. Maybe, just maybe, the bailout would've had the least level of suffering for the "people".

Sometimes, you need to suffer to understand.

[MannyIsGod]

Ha, no revote until Thursday at the earliest. Peachy.

[boutons_]

"Bush isn't a liberal or a conservative...he's a buisnessman"

oh fucking bullshit. He was failed businessman, affirmative action Harvard MBA included, that Poppy's friends and sweetheart deals (like the Dallas stadium) BAILED HIS INCOMPETENT BUSINESS ASS OUT.

[MannyIsGod]

They wouldn't loan out money in the first place. The criteria is through the roof right now. Bailing them out doesn't equate to better lending. That won't change until they fail by not writing enough loans because their criteria shot through the roof.

The meat of the money is middle of the road credit. Which is now nearly completely eliminated. The bailout doesn't reverse the criteria to get loans.

Which is why they need to fail for full on reform vs. helping out a cause thats already in a mode that won't change.

Wrong dude. helps them get loans twofold. it gives them more capital on hand because they've sold teh MBS to the government which improves their credit rating, and it also clears their balance sheets of these securities which also improves their credit rating.

[BacktoBasics]

Furthermore I see the trickle down effect of smaller banks borrowing from larger ones. Its going to get tight regardless. Due to the fact of the criteria being nearly unattainable by the average joe not the fact that they don't have the ability to lend.

[ducks]

"Bush isn't a liberal or a conservative...he's a buisnessman"

oh fucking bullshit. He was failed businessman, affirmative action Harvard MBA included, that Poppy's friends and sweetheart deals (like the Dallas stadium) BAILED HIS INCOMPETENT BUSINESS ASS OUT.

yeah bush is broke:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[boutons_]

This is great entertainment until the NBA season starts.

America has always been fundamentally about money and how to tear it out of a pristine paradise, with the of the Constitution and DoI serving as smokescreens for what really goes on.

[ducks]

how many times has donald trump filed for bankrapcy

8?

[1369]

And I think I'll have another beer.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk58/wlholt/Octoberfest/BabeBeerBoobs3.jpg

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You're such a fucking idiot. THERE ARE NO BANKS MAKING LOANS RIGHT NOW.

God damn it, I can't take your idiocy anymore. You're going on the ignore list that boutons couldn't even stay on. You're the worst fucking poster here.

idiocy. really
http://www.timeswv.com/business/local_story_273112608.html

Published: September 29, 2008 11:26 am W.Va. banks still making loans
By Justin D. Anderson
Charleston Daily Mail
CHARLESTON — Amid a tightening credit market nationwide, West Virginia banks still seem willing to float loans to the state's small businesses.








http://stickandballguy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/simpsons-the-doh-4900579.jpg

[boutons_]

"yeah bush is broke"

do some homework on how dubya got his first millions. it wasn't through being a good businessman running a high-profit business.

[BacktoBasics]

Wrong dude. helps them get loans twofold. it gives them more capital on hand because they've sold teh MBS to the government which improves their credit rating, and it also clears their balance sheets of these securities which also improves their credit rating.I don't agree with this at all. Those foreclosures aren't going to disappear. Show me where it says that the government bought foreclosers are being cleared off the averages joes credit report.

Its likely that some of that bad debt will be sold off at a % of the debt to collectors. Not saying that will happen right away but it will.

Oh and those people that had foreclosures likely had bad credit to begin with, thats why they went into foreclosure to begin with. So what if their 490 is now 540.

[smeagol]

Coming from a guy whose countries National Rally Cry is DEFAULT...I find your post enormously amusing.

Care to discuss the issue at hand instead of thoughing cheap shots, dumbass?

[smeagol]

Sometimes, you need to suffer to understand.

I agree. I just question the judgement of those who think rejecting the bailout is a good thing. People are going to suffer no matter what, bailout or no bailout.

My view is they will suffer much more without the bailout.

[whottt]

Whottt and? Whats the point? You think a severe drop in the markets and many companies and banks going under is going to solve that? WTF is your point? its no secret those securities are bad, but having many people lose their jobs does NOTHING to fix that problem.



One second...Wachovia just dropped down to a dollar per share.

I gotta go jack off to celebrate this.


BBIAF.

[RandomGuy]

Closing bell:

Dow is down 777.68 points, or 6.98% loss for the DAY.

[temujin]

Bush isn't a liberal or a conservative...he's a buisnessman. I voted for him because he's a business man who loves America...that was the choice we had.

"I want to see Buffet take this one up the ass royally."

Buffet is yet ANOTHER business man.
He is probably going to be doing a LOT better than you in the very near future....
With or without the bailout.

[BacktoBasics]

Wrong dude. helps them get loans twofold. it gives them more capital on hand because they've sold teh MBS to the government which improves their credit rating, and it also clears their balance sheets of these securities which also improves their credit rating.Seriously Manny this might have been the dumbest thing you have ever said. Clearing money might help a FICO a little, I can agree with that, but the bad debt isn't coming off.

[1369]

Closing bell:

Dow is down 777.68 points, or 6.98% loss for the DAY.

Meh, I was there when it shed 22.6% for the day.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't agree with this at all. Those foreclosures aren't going to disappear. Show me where it says that the government bought foreclosers are being cleared off the averages joes credit report.

Its likely that some of that bad debt will be sold off at a % of the debt to collectors. Not saying that will happen right away but it will.

Oh and those people that had foreclosures likely had bad credit to begin with, thats why they went into foreclosure to begin with. So what if their 490 is now 540.

Its nto the average joe getting credit that is the issue here. Its big fucking companies. You're looking at this from your view as a salesperson who relies on credit to make some of your your sales, but not from a business exec who relies on credit to keep your business rolling.

I'm not talking about 48 month loans, I'm talking about 3 months short term loans that are standard busines practice. While it sucks when Joe Schomoe can't get credit to put money into the economy, how much do you think it sucks when Corp Joe Schoe can't get the money to meet its payroll and inevitably goes under?

[DarrinS]

Closing bell:

Dow is down 777.68 points, or 6.98% loss for the DAY.


Good thing I moved my 401K money out of stocks weeks ago.

[temujin]

Krugman's blog:

OK, we are a banana republic

House votes no. Rex Nutting has the best line: House to Wall Street: Drop Dead (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/story.aspx?guid=%7B6FCA5CAB%2DBFB5%2D41ED%2D8FBB%2 DB4005F4169DA%7D&siteid=djm_HAMWRSSFirstH). He also correctly places the blame and/or credit with House Republicans. For reasons I’ve already explained (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/bailout-questions-answered/), I don’t think the Dem leadership was in a position to craft a bill that would have achieved overwhelming Democratic support, so make or break was whether enough GOPers would sign on. They didn’t.


I assume Pelosi calls a new vote; but if it fails, then what? I guess write a bill that is actually, you know, a good plan, and try to pass it — though politically it might not make sense to try until after the election.
For now, I’m just going to quote myself (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/demolition-accomplished/):
So what we now have is non-functional government in the face of a major crisis, because Congress includes a quorum of crazies and nobody trusts the White House an inch.

As a friend said last night, we’ve become a banana republic with nukes.



Welcome aboard.

[smeagol]

One second...Wachovia just dropped down to a dollar per share.

I gotta go jack off to celebrate this.


BBIAF.

That is not Wachovia the bank you are looking at. Those assets (the Bank) were bought by Citi. That is the residual Wachovia (securities firm, asset management operation, etc).

Care to tall me again why not passing the bailout is such a good thing?

[temujin]

Good thing I moved my 401K money out of stocks weeks ago.

You didn't trust the market?

How unpatriotic............

[ChumpDumper]

Closing bell:

Dow is down 777.68 points, or 6.98% loss for the DAY.It will be interesting to see if/when the Dow goes below 10,000. Will folks see that as a floor or a jumping off point?

NASDAQ was down 9.1%.
S&P down 8.79%.

[whottt]

Whottt and? Whats the point? You think a severe drop in the markets and many companies and banks going under is going to solve that? WTF is your point? its no secret those securities are bad, but having many people lose their jobs does NOTHING to fix that problem.



That was fun. I wish somehow the bill I owe them would die, as you seem to think it will, but for now I'll just celebrate that the assholes that gouged the shit out of me are going to be out of jobs.


So where were we?


The point is that the banks that are going to get their ratings downgraded deserve it...

If you and I miss a payment our rating gets downgraded...why should banks be immune to the same standards they hold us to?

All the banks are not going to go out of business, nor is money going to cease to flow into and around the United States of America.

If things get fucked up for a few days awesome...you'll survive and so will I.

Things should get a lot cheaper if that happens...I for one will celebrate it.

And for every bank that goes under another will grow.


It's alarmism plain and simple...and you are buying into it 100%. That's what they want you to do. Including the media.


If they are so scared then how come their first instinct was to up the price on their bad securities?

[temujin]

Wachovia lended half a billion to a couple of -smart- businessmen to buy and run FC Liverpool.

Maybe that wasn't a good "investment"?

[MannyIsGod]

Seriously Manny this might have been the dumbest thing you have ever said. Clearing money might help a FICO a little, I can agree with that, but the bad debt isn't coming off.

Its not close to the dumbest thing I've ever said, you're not looking at it correctly at all. To be quite frank, no one cares about Jack down the street who went into foreclosure because he bit more than he could chew.

they care about the big companies who are investd heavily in the MBSes because when THEY go broke its not one person, its a SHIT TON of people. I'm not talking about a persons credit score, I'm talking about a corporations. Its not FICO dude.

[spurster]

"The vote against the measure was 228 to 205, with 133 Republicans joining 95 Democrats in opposition. The bill was backed by 140 Democrats and 65 Republicans."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/business/30bailout.html

This will be interesting and more than a little scary with most House Republicans and many House Democrats playing a three-way game of chicken vs. President Paulson and the weak economy. I suppose we'll have to see the economy go more into the tank before Congress will act.

[ChumpDumper]

That is not Wachovia the bank you are looking at. Those assets (the Bank) were bought by Citi. That is the residual Wachovia (securities firm, asset management operation, etc).

Care to tall me again why not passing the bailout is such a good thing?Wow, that Wachovia deal is different from the WaMu buyout. The FDIC could be on the hook to cover a lot of debt this time around. That makes me uneasy as I don't know when that is all supposed to be sorted out. There will be several outright failures for the FDIC to deal with soon enough.

[BacktoBasics]

Its nto the average joe getting credit that is the issue here. Its big fucking companies. You're looking at this from your view as a salesperson who relies on credit to make some of your your sales, but not from a business exec who relies on credit to keep your business rolling.

I'm not talking about 48 month loans, I'm talking about 3 months short term loans that are standard busines practice. While it sucks when Joe Schomoe can't get credit to put money into the economy, how much do you think it sucks when Corp Joe Schoe can't get the money to meet its payroll and inevitably goes under?
Corp Joe can't stay in business anyway. If Corp Joe had a bad mark on his credit he still couldn't get the loan. They are buying up foreclosures and thats the bulk of what their taking in. The Government certainly isn't touching the good stuff.

I agree that in the short term a lot will suffer some might even have to find an alternate source for operating expenses. However theres is a bigger problem in the lending world that needs to be addressed and it won't be if there's a bailout.

It doesn't matter if its a dude buying a car or a multi millionaire trying to make ends meet. The banks aren't lending before or after the bailout.

The bad debt being bought up isn't being removed from any one person or one companies bureau.


I agree that not all business borrow based on a FICO, usually there is some kind of equity envolved. Some do however. Actually most.

[MannyIsGod]

Wow, that Wachovia deal is different from the WaMu buyout. The FDIC could be on the hook to cover a lot of debt this time around. That makes me uneasy as I don't know when that is all supposed to be sorted out. There will be several outright failures for the FDIC to deal with soon enough.

Citi is on the hook for SOME of the banking losses right now. The FDIC may have to kick in at some point but I don't believe its going to be huge. But yeah, the FDIC is going to get a workout. Thats for damn sure.

[whottt]

That is not Wachovia the bank you are looking at. Those assets (the Bank) were bought by Citi. That is the residual Wachovia (securities firm, asset management operation, etc).

False...that is the Wachovia that Citi is buying. Citi hasn't bought them yet.



Care to tall me again why not passing the bailout is such a good thing?

Care to tell me why it is?

[ChumpDumper]

Citi is on the hook for SOME of the banking losses right now. The FDIC may have to kick in at some point but I don't believe its going to be huge.That's just it -- we don't know, but Citi has basically given the FDIC $12 billion so I guess that mitigates the situation well enough.
But yeah, the FDIC is going to get a workout. Thats for damn sure.I don't remember exactly, but I checked the FDIC list a few days ago and in the last year there were about as many failures as in the preceding five years. The FDIC has done well to avoid taking on the full brunt of WaMu and Wachovia failures.

[MannyIsGod]

Corp Joe can't stay in business anyway. If Corp Joe had a bad mark on his credit he still couldn't get the loan. They are buying up foreclosures and thats the bulk of what their taking in. The Government certainly isn't touching the good stuff.

I agree that in the short term a lot will suffer some might even have to find an alternate source for operating expenses. However theres is a bigger problem in the lending world that needs to be addressed and it won't be if there's a bailout.

It doesn't matter if its a dude buying a car or a multi millionaire trying to make ends meet. The banks aren't lending before or after the bailout.

The bad debt being bought up isn't being removed from any one person or one companies bureau.


I agree that not all business borrow based on a FICO, usually there is some kind of equity envolved. Some do however. Actually most.

Corporate credit - to my understanding which at this point is limited since I just started reading about all this shit - changes much faster. There are no black marks on their credit so to speak since these companies aren't defaulting on loans. The black marks on their credit involve a) a lack of captial on hand and b) the bad investments they are on the hook for. If they eliminate both of those then of course it opens up the credit spigot yet again.

Thats not to say there won't still be failures and a rough time. Even with the bailout we were going to see a really rough time. The problem is that now its going to get worse and will take us longer to get through it.

[MannyIsGod]

False...that is the Wachovia that Citi is buying. Citi hasn't bought them yet.



Care to tell me why it is?


You don't get it do you? When Citi buys the assets (bank branches, accounts etc etc) from Wac all that is left trading under Wac is the crap Smeagol just talked about.

[RandomGuy]

That was fun. I wish somehow the bill I owe them would die, as you seem to think it will, but for now I'll just celebrate that the assholes that gouged the shit out of me are going to be out of jobs.

So where were we?

The point is that the banks that are going to get their ratings downgraded deserve it...

If you and I miss a payment our rating gets downgraded...why should banks be immune to the same standards they hold us to?

All the banks are not going to go out of business, nor is money going to cease to flow into and around the United States of America.

If things get fucked up for a few days awesome...you'll survive and so will I.

Things should get a lot cheaper if that happens...I for one will celebrate it.

And for every bank that goes under another will grow.

It's alarmism plain and simple...and you are buying into it 100%. That's what they want you to do. Including the media.

If they are so scared then how come their first instinct was to up the price on their bad securities?

I guess we will get to see who is right. You are missing how the crisis interconnects with the larger economy.

Myopia bred of ignorance.

We are really gonna take it in the shorts here, and you seem to think that this won't affect you or the average person.

That's ok. We will get a chance to see if you are right or full of shit in the coming months.

I hope you and the pollyannas are right, really I do.

[whottt]

That is not Wachovia the bank you are looking at. Those assets (the Bank) were bought by Citi. That is the residual Wachovia (securities firm, asset management operation, etc).

Care to tall me again why not passing the bailout is such a good thing?



Now they've bought them.

[whottt]

You don't get it do you? When Citi buys the assets (bank branches, accounts etc etc) from Wac all that is left trading under Wac is the crap Smeagol just talked about.

They just bought them. Smeagol was wrong.

[hater]

World markets are already free falling. I expect world markets to drop average of 10% by tomorrow

[KenMcCoy]

Thats not to say there won't still be failures and a rough time. Even with the bailout we were going to see a really rough time. The problem is that now its going to get worse and will take us longer to get through it.

Wrong...we'll get through it a lot quicker if we just let the badly run companies fail. The dropoff will be steeper, but it will be faster. With a bailout, it would be a long drawn out slide with an even longer recovery.

[BacktoBasics]

Corporate credit - to my understanding which at this point is limited since I just started reading about all this shit - changes much faster. There are no black marks on their credit so to speak since these companies aren't defaulting on loans. The black marks on their credit involve a) a lack of captial on hand and b) the bad investments they are on the hook for. If they eliminate both of those then of course it opens up the credit spigot yet again.

Thats not to say there won't still be failures and a rough time. Even with the bailout we were going to see a really rough time. The problem is that now its going to get worse and will take us longer to get through it.I may not be well versed in this as well.

I do know that most business platforms answer to a FICO. Now on the flip side of that I do know that some business don't operate that way so I can't say for sure if history is envolved or not. Whats to stop a company form disolving and starting up anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong but they are buying up all kinds of bad debt not just shit corporate debt. Thats not the entire purpose of this.

[whottt]

I guess we will get to see who is right. You are missing how the crisis interconnects with the larger economy.

Myopia bred of ignorance.

We are really gonna take it in the shorts here, and you seem to think that this won't affect you or the average person.

That's ok. We will get a chance to see if you are right or full of shit in the coming months.

I hope you and the pollyannas are right, really I do.


Better go pull all your money out of the bank, before you lose it :lmao

[1369]

I'm honestly not worried that the world is going to come crashing around our shoulders tomorrow. I was in college when the Dow shed 22.6% of its value IN ONE DAY. The following year something like 206 banks failed.

The economy of the United States did not grind to a halt.

U.S. industry did not cease to exist.

Like I said, I'll have another beer.

[ChumpDumper]

It's cool how we all became economists overnight. I'm not going to pretend to know what could happen next. Once investors start shitting their pants, all bets are off.

[spurster]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/business/30bank.html

Citigroup Buys Bank Operations of Wachovia

By ERIC DASH and ANDREW ROSS SORKIN
Published: September 29, 2008

Citigroup reached an agreement early Monday morning to acquire the banking operations of the Wachovia Corporation after making a daring bid that pulled the deeply troubled company from the brink of collapse.

...

Citigroup will assume the first $42 billion on losses tied to Wachovia’s riskiest mortgages and will pay the Federal Insurance Deposit Corporation $12 billion in preferred stock and warrants. In exchange, the F.D.I.C. will absorb all losses above that amount.

...

[MannyIsGod]

I'm honestly not worried that the world is going to come crashing around our shoulders tomorrow. I was in college when the Dow shed 22.6% of its value IN ONE DAY. The following year something like 206 banks failed.

The economy of the United States did not grind to a halt.

U.S. industry did not cease to exist.

Like I said, I'll have another beer.

No one is sayign this is going to happen. That doesn't mean shit isn't going to be really really bad. Do you really think US Industry has to cease to exsist in order for this to be very bad?

[whottt]

It's cool how we all became economists overnight. I'm not going to pretend to know what could happen next. Once investors start shitting their pants, all bets are off.

Illusory *chuckle*

[MannyIsGod]

It's cool how we all became economists overnight. I'm not going to pretend to know what could happen next. Once investors start shitting their pants, all bets are off.

I readily admit to being pretty ignorant in this, but over the past weak and a half I've tried to read up on it a ton. Some of the breakdowns I saw last week were pretty god damn bad.

Can you imagine this country with 10% unemployment? Sure, 9 out of 10 of us would still have jobs, but does that make it good?

[Anti.Hero]

I wonder how many people will really hate themselves when they remember they have $23k worth of car payments on a depreciating asset.

Cash is :bking is a motherfucker.


A deep recession is probably the only thing that will reward those who did things the right way?

[boutons_]

there could be a run on the hedge funds, that would really make for an exciting spectator sport

[DarkReign]

I agree. I just question the judgement of those who think rejecting the bailout is a good thing. People are going to suffer no matter what, bailout or no bailout.

My view is they will suffer much more without the bailout.

I agree with that as well, and I am one of those people who are ardently against any bailout.

$700 billion dollars. $85 Billion for AIG alone. I got an email today that said there are roughly 200 million people in the country who are 18+ years of age. If we all got a cut of that...

85,000,000,000 / 200,000,000 = $425,000 per adult.

If it were......awww fuck it, I'll just cut+paste.




Hi Pals,

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billion that equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It Dividend.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free.

So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.

That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.

A husband and wife has $595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.

Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads

Put away money for college - it'll be there

Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.

Buy a new car - create jobs

Invest in the market - capital drives growth

Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves

Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 (“vote buy”) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG - liquidate it.
Sell off its parts.

Let American General go back to being American General.
Sell off the real estate.

Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.

Sure it's a crazy idea that can "never work."

But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion

We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC.

And remember, The Birk plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.

Ahhh...I feel so much better getting that off my chest.

Kindest personal regards,

Birk

T. J. Birkenmeier, A Creative Guy & Citizen of the Republic

PS: Feel free to pass this along to your pals as it's either good for a laugh or a tear or a very sobering thought on how to best use $85 Billion!!



Dont tell me about the guy who started it. I dont know, nor care. No, I dont think every adult should get that money either. I think no one should get it because it doesnt exist.

[Findog]

Most likely the toxic fallout from this ensures a bill will pass by Thursday. The House GOP just threw a temper tantrum because Pelosi hurt their fweewings. She sucks and I hope she loses her speakership for that bullshit speech, but that's not a reason to vote down the bill. What a bunch of fucking pansies.

[MannyIsGod]

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

If I see that stupid fuckign chain letter for the math illiterate one more fucking time.

DO THE MATH


Please. DO. THE. FUCKING. MATH.

[whottt]

No is ardently against any bailout...we're ardently against a bullshit one.

[JoeChalupa]

It's cool how we all became economists overnight. I'm not going to pretend to know what could happen next. Once investors start shitting their pants, all bets are off.

I concur. :lmao

[Findog]

No is ardently against any bailout...we're ardently against a bullshit one.

This is the first thing you've said that makes sense. The bailout will pass by the time of the VP debate. I guarantee it.

[Findog]

Obama appeals for calm, McCain flails around like a pussy:


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/compare_and_contrast_mccain_at.php


In Colorado today, Obama called for calm and predicted ultimate success. Here's what he said (before MSNBC cut away)...

"It's important for the American public and the markets to stay calm, because things are never smooth in Congress, and to understand that it will get better...We are going to make sure that an emergency package is put together, because it is required for us to stabilize the markets...

"So I'm confident that we are going to get there, but it's going to be a little rocky. It's sort of like flying into Denver -- you know you're going to land, it's not always fun going over those mountains."

By contrast, the McCain campaign statement hailed McCain's own Herculean efforts on behalf of the bailout and attacked Obama for his failure to rise to McCain's heights of heroism and self-sacrifice:

"From the minute John McCain suspended his campaign and arrived in Washington to address this crisis, he was attacked by the Democratic leadership: Senators Obama and Reid, Speaker Pelosi and others. Their partisan attacks were an effort to gain political advantage during a national economic crisis. By doing so, they put at risk the homes, livelihoods and savings of millions of American families.

"Barack Obama failed to lead, phoned it in, attacked John McCain, and refused to even say if he supported the final bill.

"Just before the vote, when the outcome was still in doubt, Speaker Pelosi gave a strongly worded partisan speech and poisoned the outcome.

"This bill failed because Barack Obama and the Democrats put politics ahead of country."

[Findog]

"This bill failed because Barack Obama and the Democrats put politics ahead of country."

Not even close to the realm of reality. Overwhelming majority of Dems voted for it. It was the House GOP that killed it. Have they no shame?

[MannyIsGod]

DR, Please do the math in that stupid chain letter. Please.

[hater]

It doesn't take an economist to know that if the biggest banks collapse and goverment does nothing about it, we are in for a depression.

I think the bailout could have been better crafted but like most economist said, "there is no time"

I also beleive it will pass thursday and until thursday, the stock markets are fucked

[1369]

Not even close to the realm of reality. Overwhelming majority of Dems voted for it. It was the House GOP that killed it. Have they no shame?


Oooo, nice spin.

[Findog]

It doesn't take an economist to know that if the biggest banks collapse and goverment does nothing about it, we are in for a depression.

I think the bailout could have been better crafted but like most economist said, "there is no time"

I also beleive it will pass thursday and until thursday, the stock markets are fucked

They should reschedule a vote tonight. Fuck them for waiting until Thursday.

[whottt]

So can we get a vbookie on which investors will be jumping out of windows, and which ones it will be?

[whottt]

Obama appeals for calm, McCain flails around like a pussy:


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/compare_and_contrast_mccain_at.php


Boy it takes balls to make that statement...the only people I see flailing around like pussies are the ones upset the bailout didn't go through today.


I know I've been flailing around like a pussy all day while rocks of Gibralter like you smeagol, Manny and Random Guy have been pervasive calming influences.

:lol

[smeagol]

Again, there was a party and we all took advantage of it. Now the party is over a the bill needs to get paid.

It is that simple.

[Findog]

Boy it takes balls to make that statement...the only people I see flailing around like pussies are the ones upset the bailout didn't go through today.


I know I've been flailing around like a pussy all day while rocks of Gibralter like you smeagol, Manny and Random Guy have been pervasive calming influences.

:lol

Obama's not making posts on Spurstalk. Shame on us for being concerned about the economy cratering.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Not even close to the realm of reality. Overwhelming majority of Dems voted for it. It was the House GOP that killed it. Have they no shame?
http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-16619994.jpg?size=572&uid=%7B1C07B4CA-2B6E-4561-A034-2C496104AD0F%7D

[smeagol]

Boy it takes balls to make that statement...the only people I see flailing around like pussies are the ones upset the bailout didn't go through today.


I know I've been flailing around like a pussy all day while rocks of Gibralter like you smeagol, Manny and Random Guy have been pervasive calming influences.

:lol

I simply think the bailout will help us all get out of this mess. A mess we are all responsible for.

Care to tell me what is so bad about the bailout?

[whottt]

It doesn't take an economist to know that if the biggest banks collapse and goverment does nothing about it, we are in for a depression.

I think the bailout could have been better crafted but like most economist said, "there is no time"

I also beleive it will pass thursday and until thursday, the stock markets are fucked

I want to applaud you on your calmness :tu

[MannyIsGod]

Hopefully Whottt and others are right. I agree that the system is entirely fucked but I think this will hurt a lot more than people realize.

We'll see.

[whottt]

Obama's not making posts on Spurstalk. Shame on us for being concerned about the economy cratering.

What's shameful is you trying to characterize the Democrats as the calming influence..


Go fuck your self...whore.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

It's cool how we all became economists overnight.

don't all economist post on spurtalk right after a drop of over 700 points in the DOW

[hater]

Again, there was a party and we all took advantage of it. Now the party is over a the bill needs to get paid.

It is that simple.

completely wrong. Nobody told the average american that it was a bad, bad idea to take these loans. The goverment should have warned average Joe, that is their job, to protect the ppl. So 'we all took advantage' is way off. More like, the banks took advantage of average Joe.

Now, the bill is being put on the average american while the banks and rich corporate make money regardless. So 'the bill needs to get paid' is off too. More like, the bill that the banks should be paying is being paid by average Joe.

[SnakeBoy]

I know I've been flailing around like a pussy all day while rocks of Gibralter like you smeagol, Manny and Random Guy have been pervasive calming influences.

:lol

:lmao

I think they should relax. Maybe get some popcorn and watch a movie.



http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E9N2NQEWL._SS500_.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Hi Pals,

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billion that equals $425,000.00.

85,000/200= 425, not 425,000.

FAIL.

The author should get back to making sure the fries don't burn. ... and make sure mine have a little salt please.

[Shastafarian]

They should reschedule a vote tonight. Fuck them for waiting until Thursday.

Tonight and tomorrow are religious holidays.

[SnakeBoy]

85,000/200= 425, not 425,000.

FAIL.

The author should get back to making sure the fries don't burn. ... and make sure mine have a little salt please.

Not worth talking about if the math is right. It's a stupid idea even if it was right.

[whottt]

I simply think the bailout will help us all get out of this mess. A mess we are all responsible for.

Care to tell me what is so bad about the bailout?

A little economic collapse never killed anyone.

[Findog]

What's shameful is you trying to characterize the Democrats as the calming influence..


Go fuck your self...whore.

Yeah, it's the Democrats who got their feelings hurt by a fucking speech and based their vote on that.

[temujin]

It's cool how we all became economists overnight. I'm not going to pretend to know what could happen next. Once investors start shitting their pants, all bets are off.

They are not economists.
They are angry and scared folks repeating dogmatic mantras.

And they certainly know little about the lessons of 1929.

[MannyIsGod]

I wonder how low the Dow goes before Thursday.

[temujin]

A little economic collapse never killed anyone.

And major one?

[Indazone]

The Dollar Drop Continues (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/s-p: Go to www.MoneyMorning.com/dollar)
How far will the Dollar drop? And why the Fed can't save it. Free rpt
www.MoneyMorning.com/dollar (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/s-p: Go to www.MoneyMorning.com/dollar)




http://mschaut.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/bernankepanicked.jpg?w=200&h=300 (http://mschaut.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/bernankepanicked.jpg)
Despite what our politicians are telling us, experts in other lands have issued the warning: Economic collapse within three months (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourView&xml=/money/2008/06/18/cnrbs118.xml).

The Royal Bank of Scotland has advised clients to brace for a full-fledged crash in global stock and credit markets over the next three months as inflation paralyses the major central banks.
“A very nasty period is soon to be upon us - be prepared,” said Bob Janjuah, the bank’s credit strategist.
A very nasty period indeed.
Ron Paul was right. Globalization, according to Janjuah, the Royal Bank’s credit strategist.:

“Globalisation was always going to risk putting G7 bankers into a dangerous corner at some point. We have got to that point,” he said.
Federal Reserve:

US Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank both face a Hobson’s choice as workers start to lose their jobs in earnest and lenders cut off credit.
The authorities cannot respond with easy money because oil and food costs continue to push headline inflation to levels that are unsettling the markets. “The ugly spoiler is that we may need to see much lower global growth in order to get lower inflation,” he said.
“The Fed is in panic mode. The massive credibility chasms down which the Fed and maybe even the ECB will plummet when they fail to hike rates in the face of higher inflation will combine to give us a big sell-off in risky assets,” he said.
The collapse of the dollar (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/06/16/bcnecb116.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox):

Just as then, the dollar has plummeted far enough to cause worldwide alarm. In August 1992 it fell to 1.35 against the Deutsche Mark: this time it has fallen even further to the equivalent of 1.25. It is potentially worse for Europe this time because the yen and yuan have also fallen to near record lows. So has sterling.
Inflationary Depression is nearly upon us. Ron Paul was right, and he is being proven out in the most dire of ways. The Fed will save the banks like Morgan Stanley and Lehman, EVEN AT THE EXPENSE OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourView&xml=/money/2008/06/09/ccview109.xml).
Our government is NOT our friend, even with ‘representatives’ of the people, since they have been bought and sold like cattle.
Brace yourselves, people. About 7 million died because of the last Great Depression. That was without a war, without martial law, without China being a well-armed enemy threatening war.

[RandomGuy]

I agree with that as well, and I am one of those people who are ardently against any bailout.

$700 billion dollars. $85 Billion for AIG alone. I got an email today that said there are roughly 200 million people in the country who are 18+ years of age. If we all got a cut of that...

85,000,000,000 / 200,000,000 = $425,000 per adult.

If it were......awww fuck it, I'll just cut+paste.



Dont tell me about the guy who started it. I dont know, nor care. No, I dont think every adult should get that money either. I think no one should get it because it doesnt exist.

The problem with this is Bond Insurance.

Many bond issuers buy bond insurance to make up for a slightly lower credit rating, and get their bond rated higher for a lower interest rate.

Much of the calculation about the worth of that bond is based on having this insurance.

Now the insurer goes under and there IS no more insurance for that bond.

The value of that bond, an asset on the books of the owner is suddenly MUCH less.

Instant write down of that bond, and the bond holders, say, Joe Schmoe Midsize to Smallish Bank of America, who thought they had Grade A bonds and that their portfolio was invested in a prudent, conservative manner wake up to find that their portfolio was MUCH riskier and worth less than it was the day before.

Their assets take an instant write down, and this evaporates their reserves.

Once their reserves evaporate, their ability to loan money, even to outstandingly great credit risks evaporate with it.

This is a perfect example of how AIG taking it in the ass will end up fucking people with great credit, and banks that invested conservatively and safely.

To be sure, I am not entirely sure how big AIG's bond insurance arm was/is, but it is something that should give one pause.

[BacktoBasics]

completely wrong. Nobody told the average american that it was a bad, bad idea to take these loans. The goverment should have warned average Joe, that is their job, to protect the ppl. So 'we all took advantage' is way off. More like, the banks took advantage of average Joe.

Now, the bill is being put on the average american while the banks and rich corporate make money regardless. So 'the bill needs to get paid' is off too. More like, the bill that the banks should be paying is being paid by average Joe.
There are laws in place to protect the average joe from getting into something they shouldn't. The middle men and lenders broke the law thousands if not millions of times by telling bold face lies to the consumers. Thats not the entire problem though. Lots of people were forclosed on that had normal simple interest loans. They were either over extended or they couldn't keep up with the massive inflation that dropped on us like a ton of bricks.

However there were people that knew what they were getting into and chose to do it anyway.

[hater]

A little economic collapse never killed anyone.

:lol

what a moron...

it's gonna be at least the worst economic disaster since great depression.

[MannyIsGod]

The problem with this is Bond Insurance.

Many bond issuers buy bond insurance to make up for a slightly lower credit rating, and get their bond rated higher for a lower interest rate.

Much of the calculation about the worth of that bond is based on having this insurance.

Now the insurer goes under and there IS no more insurance for that bond.

The value of that bond, an asset on the books of the owner is suddenly MUCH less.

Instant write down of that bond, and the bond holders, say, Joe Schmoe Midsize to Smallish Bank of America, who thought they had Grade A bonds and that their portfolio was invested in a prudent, conservative manner wake up to find that their portfolio was MUCH riskier and worth less than it was the day before.

Their assets take an instant write down, and this evaporates their reserves.

Once their reserves evaporate, their ability to loan money, even to outstandingly great credit risks evaporate with it.

This is a perfect example of how AIG taking it in the ass will end up fucking people with great credit, and banks that invested conservatively and safely.

To be sure, I am not entirely sure how big AIG's bond insurance arm was/is, but it is something that should give one pause.

Exactly! And what is worse is that when these assets dry up the insurace comapnies themselves have to demonstrate the capital on hand to pay out on these policies. When AIG wasn't able to do that it kicks in automatic payout of those policies which then triggers other insurance down the line.

Its a huge fucking chain reaction. And its true that much of our economy is built on this house of cards and that its going to collapse unless we fix it, but that doesn't mean letting it fall right now is the best option.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm just glad I moved 401K funds before it all started going to hell. Went with the safest, yet lowest yielding fund.

[RandomGuy]

Boy it takes balls to make that statement...the only people I see flailing around like pussies are the ones upset the bailout didn't go through today.


I know I've been flailing around like a pussy all day while rocks of Gibralter like you smeagol, Manny and Random Guy have been pervasive calming influences.

:lol

It is not the job of a good analyst to smooth anyone's feelings.

It is the job of a good analyst to state their best guess as to what is most likely to happen.

I have done so, as have you.

The great thing is that we all get to see who ends up being right.

You say I am not as smart as I think I am, and I think the same thing about your dumb ass.

This will let us get a verdict from the ultimate judge and jury: reality.

As Manny said: we'll see.

[smeagol]

completely wrong. Nobody told the average american that it was a bad, bad idea to take these loans. The goverment should have warned average Joe, that is their job, to protect the ppl. So 'we all took advantage' is way off. More like, the banks took advantage of average Joe.


Average Joe had a blast with the extra cash generated by paying initially a low interest rate on their mortgage, or by taking a second mortgage or an equity loan, or by maxing out his credit cards.

Average Joe is not blameless. He partied and now the light are off.



Now, the bill is being put on the average american while the banks and rich corporate make money regardless. So 'the bill needs to get paid' is off too. More like, the bill that the banks should be paying is being paid by average Joe.

You don't get it. Bill or no bill, Average Joe will suffer. I say Average Joe will suffer less if the bill passes, genius whottt says the contrary.

[KenMcCoy]

I'm just glad I moved 401K funds before it all started going to hell. Went with the safest, yet lowest yielding fund.

If you are young enough...now is a good time to buy.

[cool hand]

greatest speech on the house floor I have ever seen/heard.





Feyu2Db2QuU

[clambake]

audits for businesses with revolving loans are gonna be a bitch.

businesses that make payroll based on that revolving loan are gonna get slammed.

banks are not going to be able to afford their contractor auditers.

snake eating it's tail.

[KenMcCoy]

Also...as the real estate starts to bottom out it's a good time to buy real estate as well...if you have good credit, banks will be begging people to take some of these foreclosures off of their books. Personally, I can't wait...finally get that vacation house I've been looking for for the last year or so.

[cool hand]

^ditto.

[clambake]

Also...as the real estate starts to bottom out it's a good time to buy real estate as well...if you have good credit, banks will be begging people to take some of these foreclosures off of their books. Personally, I can't wait...finally get that vacation house I've been looking for for the last year or so.

buying a few 100k houses in foreclosure won't mean shit. won't solve anything.

banks are gonna have to start calling in notes to survive without some kind of bailout.

america will be one big chopshop.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm just glad I moved 401K funds before it all started going to hell. Went with the safest, yet lowest yielding fund.I'm glad I moved some of my cash into a CD.

At WaMu :lol

[Anti.Hero]

http://mschaut.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/bernankepanicked.jpg[/URL]


.

:lol at the media always getting these shots.

I wonder if they ever think "I've got to scratch my eye, it's killing me. I know they are watching...fuck it really itches...think about something else...aww screw it."

[BacktoBasics]

Also...as the real estate starts to bottom out it's a good time to buy real estate as well...if you have good credit, banks will be begging people to take some of these foreclosures off of their books. Personally, I can't wait...finally get that vacation house I've been looking for for the last year or so.
The banks are banking on you wanting to buy into whats an already massively inflated home value by simply telling you that you can get this house for so much below the appraisal value...not a fair market value. You either need to know your shit or stand back and watch because the appraisals are through the roof and their selling you against the false notion that said appraisal is what the house is worth. I'd pass and invest somewhere else.

This is the new "employee discount" marketing ploy.

[KenMcCoy]

buying a few 100k houses in foreclosure won't mean shit. won't solve anything.

banks are gonna have to start calling in notes to survive without some kind of bailout.

america will be one big chopshop.

lol...you think there aren't a lot of people out there with deep pockets who are ready to pounce all over this??? Warren Buffet - Buying goldman sachs, Trump - already said that he's buying all kinds of real estate, etc.

[RandomGuy]

Also...as the real estate starts to bottom out it's a good time to buy real estate as well...if you have good credit, banks will be begging people to take some of these foreclosures off of their books. Personally, I can't wait...finally get that vacation house I've been looking for for the last year or so.

If you have a lot of cash saved up, this will be a bonanza.

Unfortunately, if assets start drying up, then those banks won't have the money to lend you even if your credit is good, and they will demand an arm and a leg in interest even if so.

[ChumpDumper]

The banks are banking on you wanting to buy into whats an already massively inflated home value by simply telling you that you can get this house for so much below the appraisal value...not a fair market value. You either need to know your shit or stand back and watch because the appraisals are through the roof and their selling you against the false notion that said appraisal is what the house is worth. I'd pass and invest somewhere else.

This is the new "employee discount" marketing ploy.Kind of depends on the market. Prices in Texas haven't dropped much because sellers still seem to feel good about inventory levels.

[BacktoBasics]

I'll put it a different way.
90k house that appraises at 150k is being sold to you for the low low come buy it now low price of 110k.

See the savings its over 40k below what its worth. Sign right here.

[Anti.Hero]

Also...as the real estate starts to bottom out it's a good time to buy real estate as well...if you have good credit, banks will be begging people to take some of these foreclosures off of their books. Personally, I can't wait...finally get that vacation house I've been looking for for the last year or so.

Word. I wish I were 10-15 years older and had capital to play with right now.

[KenMcCoy]

The banks are banking on you wanting to buy into whats an already massively inflated home value by simply telling you that you can get this house for so much below the appraisal value...not a fair market value. You either need to know your shit or stand back and watch because the appraisals are through the roof and their selling you against the false notion that said appraisal is what the house is worth. I'd pass and invest somewhere else.

This is the new "employee discount" marketing ploy.

Please...pretty soon you'll be able to name your price. This is regardless of whether or not a bailout bill passes or not.

[smeagol]

I'm glad I moved some of my cash into a CD.

At WaMu :lol

JPM Chase :tu

You'll do fine . . .

[ChumpDumper]

I'll put it a different way.
90k house that appraises at 150k is being sold to you for the low low come buy it now low price of 110k.

See the savings its over 40k below what its worth. Sign right here.You think the market around here is that inflated?

[JoeChalupa]

I'm happy where I am. Fuck it.

[clambake]

lol...you think there aren't a lot of people out there with deep pockets who are ready to pounce all over this??? Warren Buffet - Buying goldman sachs, Trump - already said that he's buying all kinds of real estate, etc.

they're not buying neighborhoods. i thought you were talking about middle class joe catching a break.

i should have known better.

[JoeChalupa]

JPM Chase :tu

You'll do fine . . .

The JPM funds have been losing money.

[whottt]

Buffet is yet ANOTHER business man.

No shit? Did you figure this out on your own or is it something you were taught?



He is probably going to be doing a LOT better than you in the very near future....

He probably already is...but what I am talking about is the 5 billion dollar investment he just made(incidentally on shares that took an asskicking today) that's set to pay him a 10% annual dividend along with some warrants to buy common shares at 115 the value of which is going to be determned entirely by this bailout when G/S is the first to get in line to sell their bad mortgages.

That's 500 million per year...because of your taxes.


Do you understand this fool?


Do you understand that he audacity to talk about how the Superrich should be taxed as he was doing this?

This is your hero?


Shit I'll be your hero too...give me all your money.

Dumbass.


You go ahead and cheer the world's richest man getting richer off your taxes..


Why don't you suck his cock and loan him your wife while you're at it...


Genius.



With or without the bailout.

He's going to take it up the ass without this bailout on this particular deal. He's already started too and if those common shares drop below 115(they were down to 105 at times today) those warrants are useless.


And if he tries to get out now he is going to lose money....he's down 200 million right now.


I had nothing against the guy until he pulled this shit while talking about how the superrich should be taxed....while he's setting himself up to make @500 million a year annually off our taxes...

And has sheltered multiple billions of his wealth from any form of taxation.


Fuck this dude. He's dirty and he serves himself. Forget everything you ever heard about him previously.

[ChumpDumper]

JPM Chase :tu

You'll do fine . . .I was never worried. I'm not sure if they can change the really good rate I got or not, but I know if they do I can take it out with the accrued interest and no penalty -- which I will do.

[cool hand]

me and wife are RN's we make $$$$ pretty much anywhere....thank god.

[ChumpDumper]

The JPM funds have been losing money.At the very worst, I'm in under the FDIC limits so I don't care much. The only bad thing about the Chase takeover compared to an FDIC takeover is that depositor rates are going to down no matter what. The IndyMac bank that the FDIC has been running for months still has really high rates for depositors.

[KenMcCoy]

If you have a lot of cash saved up, this will be a bonanza.

Unfortunately, if assets start drying up, then those banks won't have the money to lend you even if your credit is good, and they will demand an arm and a leg in interest even if so.

If you have good credit they'll give you a loan at a good rate. You might not be going to a large national bank...but there are going to be some good state banks that didn't get fucked by the CRA that are going to have cash to give out.

Shit...there are lots of COMPANIES that have bunches of cash that are still issuing commercial paper.

[BacktoBasics]

Please...pretty soon you'll be able to name your price. This is regardless of whether or not a bailout bill passes or not.

You're wrong. Maybe in a year or two you when the market settles down you might be able to rely more on that kind of investing but for now you're wrong. Anyone who's anyone in the realty business knows the only way to feed themselves is get the general public to believe home values are so low its the deal of the century. Meanwhile yeah their down but they were way up to begin with. Taxes anyone?


You think the market around here is that inflated?
I do believe that Texas especially South Texas is a bit sheltered from this.

Reason:

The economy here isn't that bad. We have a ton of military employees and South Texas is swarmed with millions of oil field workers. Not to mention the new windmill employees are really booming in the Corpus and Valley areas.

Its not the best its been but its still rocking pretty strong. Certainly not the shit their taking up North.

Home appraisals aren't as bad but its still out of control. Taxes Taxes Taxes. Its the easiest way to get them.

[KenMcCoy]

they're not buying neighborhoods. i thought you were talking about middle class joe catching a break.

i should have known better.

I'm middle class according to Obama...and I know i'll be looking for some deals...

[Biernutz]

How the house voted----

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll491.xml

[BacktoBasics]

If you have good credit they'll give you a loan at a good rate. You might not be going to a large national bank...but there are going to be some good state banks that didn't get fucked by the CRA that are going to have cash to give out.

Shit...there are lots of COMPANIES that have bunches of cash that are still issuing commercial paper.Doesn't mean its any cheaper.

Prime used to be around 620. This is where these banks got into some trouble. They set the prime so low and the rest of the guys cleaned up on the mid 500's. Most of which were horrible lends.

then it went to 680

then the economy started to tumble and they moved it to 700

then 720

and now half the banks are doing prime at 740 or better which is almost no one.

So the rates are higher regardless of how good a deal you got.

Its not going to get affordable until the criteria levels off and the banks come up with a more subjective system.

You can have great credit and not get a decent home loan. Its a real problem.

[KenMcCoy]

You're wrong. Maybe in a year or two you when the market settles down you might be able to rely more on that kind of investing but for now you're wrong. Anyone who's anyone in the realty business knows the only way to feed themselves is get the general public to believe home values are so low its the deal of the century. Meanwhile yeah their down but they were way up to begin with. Taxes anyone?




I'm not talking about buying stuff tomorrow...i'm talking about paying attention to the markets and being ready to deal...that might be 2 months and it might be 2 years. You just have to be ready.

[RandomGuy]

Shit...there are lots of COMPANIES that have bunches of cash that are still issuing commercial paper.

Source?

I heard an interview with an economist of some sort saying that the commercial paper market has virtually dried up recently.

I wish I could source that better.

Here is an attempt:

U.S. Commercial Paper Slumps Most Since August 2007 (Update3) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601009&sid=aqohs7SYAbHg) (Bloomberg news)

Sept. 25 (2008) (Bloomberg) -- Corporate short-term borrowing plunged as rates around the world soared and investors pulled record amounts of cash from the biggest buyers of the debt.

The U.S. commercial paper market slumped $61 billion, or 3.5 percent, to a seasonally adjusted $1.7 trillion for the week ended Sept. 24, the Federal Reserve said today in Washington. On a non-seasonally adjusted basis, the market dropped $44 billion to $1.64 trillion.

The financing arms of equipment makers such as Caterpillar Inc. and Deere & Co. may reduce their reliance on commercial paper after General Electric Co. said it will cut the debt by about $10 billion. Investors pulled a record amount of cash out of money-market mutual funds in the week ended Sept. 23 after the first shareholder losses in 14 years. Money-market funds are the biggest buyers of commercial paper, which typically helps fund day-to-day expenses including payroll and rent.

``If you can't do that, we have some serious problems,'' said Jerry R. Marlatt, a partner in New York in the financial products group of Clifford Chance LP who works with issuers of asset-back commercial paper. ``We're at a key intersection here in terms of confidence.''

--------------------------------------------

[BacktoBasics]

I'm not talking about buying stuff tomorrow...i'm talking about paying attention to the markets and being ready to deal...that might be 2 months and it might be 2 years. You just have to be ready.
Thats not what it sounded like you were talking about. You suggested it was a good time to jump in and I don't agree.

2 months....maybe. 2 years who knows but hopefully its more stable.

[KenMcCoy]

Source?

I heard an interview with an economist of some sort saying that the commercial paper market has virtually dried up recently.



Just internal industry knowledge...

[DarkReign]

DR, Please do the math in that stupid chain letter. Please.

:lmao x 472.00

Weak. Hehe...my bad.

EDITED: first time I have ever cut and paste...well, anything that wasnt an article. I got that email from my brother-in-law not 5 minutes before posting that drivel. Embarassed doesnt begin to explain my position.

[whottt]

Yeah, it's the Democrats who got their feelings hurt by a fucking speech and based their vote on that.



True...and it's the Republicans that are flailing about in a panic because the bill they didn't want passed didn't get passed.

They didn't want it passed because they were in a panic, and now that it didn't get passed as they wanted they are really in a panic...while the Democrats were calmly trying to force it through and are no doubt thrilled that didn't go through.

I heard they popped open a bottle of champagne to calmly celebrate the fact that they bill they want passed didn't get passed. While the Republicans are desperately handwringing that they bill they didn't want passed didn't get passed.

You're brilliant.

[spurster]

From a stockholder, this is one of those times you need to hold on thru the rough times.

Waiting another few days won't be the worst thing in the world. Letting the worst offenders sell themselves for nothing will be a good thing. However, I expect enough of a crash to change a few votes.

[Anti.Hero]

lol @ libs being so eager to tax anyone making a buck and now worried the end of the world is near

[Shastafarian]

lol @ libs being so eager to tax anyone making a buck and now worried the end of the world is near

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

[whottt]

lol @ libs being so eager to tax anyone making a buck and now worried the end of the world is near


What's funny is the are the motherfuckers that have been railing against the evils of coprorate America for the past 8 years and now they are upset that corporate America is being hung out to dry for their own greed.


Liberal logic...gotta love it.

[Findog]

True...and it's the Republicans that are flailing about in a panic because the bill they didn't want passed didn't get passed.

They didn't want it passed because they were in a panic, and now that it didn't get passed as they wanted they are really in a panic...while the Democrats were calmly trying to force it through and are no doubt thrilled that didn't go through.

I heard they popped open a bottle of champagne to calmly celebrate the fact that they bill they want passed didn't get passed. While the Republicans are desperately handwringing that they bill they didn't want passed didn't get passed.

You're brilliant.

I think the "panic" is an understandable concern that doing nothing is not an option. It was a lousy bill, but doing nothing is not an option, and time isn't on anybody's side.

[Findog]

What's funny is the are the motherfuckers that have been railing against the evils of coprorate America for the past 8 years and now they are upset that corporate America is being hung out to dry for their own greed.


Liberal logic...gotta love it.

Obtuse.

[ChumpDumper]

Ok, so what is a good plan, resident economists?

[Findog]

Ok, so what is a good plan, resident economists?

Gleefully celebrating an economic crisis

/whottt

[KenMcCoy]

I think the "panic" is an understandable concern that doing nothing is not an option. It was a lousy bill, but doing nothing is not an option, and time isn't on anybody's side.

shit...doing nothing is probably the best option for the long term future of the US.

[Shastafarian]

Ok, so what is a good plan, resident economists?

I'm curious to know AHF's economic plan. He did graduate with honors from Harvard and majored in economics.

[KenMcCoy]

Ok, so what is a good plan, resident economists?

Let the markets take care of themselves (bad companies die, strong ones buy up the weak ones, etc.) and get rid of the capital gains tax to encourage investments.

[Indazone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cziN3gt-hic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cziN3gt-hic)

Ron Paul was right

[whottt]

Obtuse.



No...insisting that the Mavs are better off with Jason Kidd than Devin Harris is obtuse.

[Indazone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n3g5lUgkWk

Total Economic Collapse

Don't think it's a possibility? Get ready to hang on to your tinfoil hats.

[temujin]

Gleefully celebrating an economic crisis

/whottt

you forgot about the
shit
crap
fuck
cock
and similar memorabilia that go along the "thinking" of this "businessman"........

[whottt]

Ok, so what is a good plan, resident economists?


Lead us to the promised land Chump...in your vague but steadfast fashion. You lead, we'll follow.

[whottt]

you forgot about the
shit
crap
fuck
cock
and similar memorabilia that go along the "thinking" of this "businessman"........


Who says I am a businessman? My economy is not in crisis.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm going to settle myself by posting funny pics from now on.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o22/womwom766/bailout.jpg

[temujin]

No shit? Did you figure this out on your own or is it something you were taught?

He probably already is...but what I am talking about is the 5 billion dollar investment he just made(incidentally on shares that took an asskicking today) that's set to pay him a 10% annual dividend along with some warrants to buy common shares at 115 the value of which is going to be determned entirely by this bailout when G/S is the first to get in line to sell their bad mortgages.

That's 500 million per year...because of your taxes.

Do you understand this fool?

This is your hero?

Shit I'll be your hero too...give me all your money.

Dumbass.


You go ahead and cheer the world's richest man getting richer off your taxes..


Why don't you suck his cock and loan him your wife while you're at it...


Genius.




Your taxes.

Not mine.

Only your language is worst than your ideas.

[temujin]

Who says I am a businessman? My economy is not in crisis.

You live in Tonga?

[whottt]

Again, I'd just like to compliment you guys on your poise and grace :tu

[temujin]

It's official.

Luis Scola spoke in favour of the bailout.

[temujin]

Composure, poise, grace.
And gravity I would add.

[ChumpDumper]

Lead us to the promised land Chump...in your vague but steadfast fashion. You lead, we'll follow.So, you don't have anything resembling a plan -- but you'll bitch about anyone else's.

Fair enough.

[whottt]

You live in Tonga?

No but there was a wrestler I was a fan of that was from there.


I live in a place where gas costs 3.50 a gallon...that's my economy, and since oil is now getting a whole lot cheaper, that's going to be good for my economy :tu. I live in a part of America called panicandflailatopia.


These other guys in this thead live in a different part of America where gas prices aren't a problem or a hindrance for anyone's budget, it's called headupassatoipia and everyone there is calm and poised under a financial crisis that has not touched them in any way right now and likely never will...their primary concern in life is adhering to media outcries and ensuring that the world's richest man is going to get 500 million annually on the back of their taxes.

[Indazone]

There is no plan. The gov't bailout plan of $700 billion dollars is akin to the US gov't printing more money out of thin air that it doesn't have and calling it borrowing from the tax payers when there is no way that the gov't can ever pay it back.

[MannyIsGod]

Look, I can sign on to not doing the bailout if you think no matter what either way we're headed to a big shit storm. But to sit here and say that it won't be bad is contrary to everything I've read.

[Indazone]

The irony is that Ross Perot was right about NAFTA and the giant sucking sound as our jobs and manufacturing went overseas. He was right that we would become poor and that we would not be able to protect the United States if we signed onto Nafta.

[Findog]

No...insisting that the Mavs are better off with Jason Kidd than Devin Harris is obtuse.

I agree, which is I why argued vigorously against the trade. The archives will back me up on that.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

[Spur-Addict]

Ron Paul was right

He usually is.

[clambake]

I agree, which is I why argued vigorously against the trade. The archives will back me up on that.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?


everything. and don't forget we still need to bomb spain.

[whottt]

It's official.

Luis Scola spoke in favour of the bailout.


Yeap...Scola sure taught me a lesson when he got the Rockets out of the first round and and lead Argentina to a Gold Medal. I got showed :tu

[Findog]

everything. and don't forget we still need to bomb spain.


Fuck Spain. Tapas-eating motherfuckers. McCain will show them what's what.

[Indazone]

He usually is.


That is why our two party system of Democracy doesn't work. Especially when the both parties are backed with Special Interest group money. Guys like Ron Paul have no chance to ever make a difference. Ross Perot sorta had a chance but only because he finanaced his own campaign. He wansn't beholden to any special interest groups. As long as their is big corporate money behind the campaigns of the Democrats and Republicans, who becomes President doesn't matter. Policy is determined by whomever has the money.

As they say in business

He who has the money makes the rules.

[Spur-Addict]

That is why our two party system of Democracy doesn't work. Especially when the both parties are backed with Special Interest group money. Guys like Ron Paul have no chance to ever make a difference. Ross Perot sorta had a chance but only because he finanaced his own campaign. He wansn't beholden to any special interest groups. As long as their is big corporate money behind the campaigns of the Democrats and Republicans, who becomes President doesn't matter. Policy is determined by whomever has the money.

As they say in business

He who has the money makes the rules.

Preaching to the choir

[whottt]

So, you don't have anything resembling a plan -- but you'll bitch about anyone else's.

Fair enough.

I haven't bitched about your plan...I haven't even seen it yet.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Hey the dems have the majority...so they couldn't even get their own party in line.

Therein lies the rub. Dems could do this by themselves if they want, but they want the political cover of having the Republicans all in on this plan as well.

Chickenshits.

[ChumpDumper]

I haven't bitched about your plan...I haven't even seen it yet.I have none and have said so; you are too busy bitching to understand. You're the expert -- let's hear yours.

[whottt]

Look, I can sign on to not doing the bailout if you think no matter what either way we're headed to a big shit storm. But to sit here and say that it won't be bad is contrary to everything I've read.


They're going to pass some form of bailout...I am almost certain of it.

[whottt]

I have none and have said so; you are too busy bitching to understand. You're the expert -- let's hear yours.

Let things crash...the debt isn't going anywhere and the money has nowhere else to go.

Plus, eveything will get cheaper.

[whottt]

Fuck Spain. Tapas-eating motherfuckers. McCain will show them what's what.


I'd much rather bomb Dallas than Spain...if I could figure out a way to only bomb the douchebags.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Look, I can sign on to not doing the bailout if you think no matter what either way we're headed to a big shit storm. But to sit here and say that it won't be bad is contrary to everything I've read.

As I mentioned on the poll about the bailout...

(IMO)

Whether or not this bailout happens, we are going to have at least a recession. And anyone who says it won't suck is kidding themselves. It's going to suck for everyone.

But I think this bailout, as the legislation stands, would be pouring fuel on the fire. Meaning, we go from dealing with say a 1-2 year recession (more likely 2 years) to dealing with a great depression and 8-10 years of pain in the ass inflation.

So, my two cents:

No bailout, short term recession. Recessions are necessary evils of a free market economy. We can't keep plugging holes in the dike when the dam's going to burst anyway.

Bailout, the next decade is going to be a bitch for us all. We're seeing the tip of the iceberg right now with residential mortgages. Whenever this gets settled, we're going to be dealing with commercial property lending failures that will make the residential mortgage failures pennies in the bucket.

So, to me this bill is a referendum on whether we want to go through the short term pain of a recession or bail out Wall Street, still get fucked in the ass, go through a great depression, all while the rich folk on Wall Street continue to live their lives of splendor and excess on the backs of all of us and our children and grand children thanks to the bailout.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'd much rather bomb Dallas than Spain...if I could figure out a way to only bomb the douchebags.

Or at least give me time to get the hell out of here (Dallas) :lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

And finally, it says a lot about the situation that people were threatening members of the House over any potential future leadership positions if they didn't vote yes today. And you had Paulson screaming that we're all screwed \if this doesn't go through.

Nothing like a little fear and intimidation to ramrod through shitty legislation, eh?

[Spurminator]

I'd much rather bomb Dallas than Spain...if I could figure out a way to only bomb the douchebags.

Target Uptown and Addison on a Friday night. There will be some collateral damage, but I'd only estimate it at 15% of total casualties.

[Anti.Hero]

Most generations have a time when they have to wake up from the comfortable life and do work son. This is necessary to ensure they can keep the country going another generation. This is probably ours.

Look outside right now. Most people have shit they can't afford. Not "afford" but actually afford. 2005 was the first time since the great depression the average person spent more than they made? Time for people to wise back up.

Most people will get owned the next couple years. A few will become millionaires over the next couple years.

[whottt]

IF you guys think that foreign investors are going to avoid us...where exactly are they going to go?

That is a pure unadulerated scare tactic.

This is the bargain market. The debt is not going anywhere. I wish it would.


Panic is usually the wrong course of action.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

This thing is a crisis. We are all screwed. Everyone needs to vote for this to save the world. That's why we're taking off until Thursday [/Pelosi].

[ploto]

Before the vote- McCain was taking credit for brokering the deal with House Republicans! :lol

[Spur-Addict]

I'd much rather bomb Dallas than Spain...if I could figure out a way to only bomb the douchebags.

Aerial sticky bombs with condensed power.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Target Uptown and Addison on a Friday night. There will be some collateral damage, but I'd only estimate it at 15% of total casualties.

But there's a ton of easy ass in Addison :depressed Can't we make an exception?

[dickface]

Target Uptown and Addison on a Friday night. There will be some collateral damage, but I'd only estimate it at 15% of total casualties.

Tag Frisco as well.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Before the vote- McCain was taking credit for brokering the deal with House Republicans! :lol

And Obama was taking credit for bringing Republicans and Democrats together to form a compromise :spin

[ChumpDumper]

Before the vote- McCain was taking credit for brokering the deal with House Republicans! :lolIs he planning on working through Rosh Hashana? Will he leave his campaign HQ this time and drive across the river?