Bold Declaration

[timvp]

If the Miami Heat win the championship, Shaquille O'Neal will surpass Michael Jordan to become the greatest basketball player of all-time. He won three championships with the Lakers before Kobe's ego destroyed that franchise. He gets traded to a mediocre team for three of their best players yet still takes that team to a championship. That is better credentials than anyone who has ever played. Shaq would become the best ever.

[Spurminator]

I predict this thread goes 10+ pages.

[Kori Ellis]

:lol@Spurminator

[picnroll]

Don't know about that but it would probably make Kobe the stupidest basketball player of all-time.

[timvp]

I predict this thread goes 10+ pages.

This won't even go three pages because there is no way to argue against the declaration. Shaquille O'Neal would become the best player ever and it wouldn't even be that close.

[BigVee]

I won't argue it because it aint gonna happen.

[airjer15]

What if Lebron's team wins it all? what then?

[texbumTHElife]

I dont think i could ever endure hearing people call Shaqg the greatest basketball player of all time. He is simply the biggest basketball player of all time and know how to throw his body around. He has no more basketball skill than college kids. He is 70lbs heavier than anyone else though and get away with as much if not more dirty play than Karl Malone did. He also lives in the lane and never seems to get called for 3 second violations...

[bigzak25]

it will take more than 1 more ring for shaq to surpass jordan as best player ever, imo.

he already has "most dominant" and if anything, another ring would cement that claim.

[timvp]

Shaq may be the biggest player in the game, but MJ was the most athletic. Different attributes, but they both used their advantage to dominate. And I have never bought the idea that Shaq has no skills. He has very good foot work and is the best passing bigman in the game.

[whottt]

Geez! Could you imagine how big Shaq's already big head would get if this transpired?

I see your point and you are probably right, but not everyone considers MJ the greatest to begin with...he had a lot of help on those last 3 titles...

That last triple champion team you had a 55 win team without MJ playing...added to it was the greatest 3 point shooter ever, and one of the greatest rebounders ever.

It might shake up the world for those that do consider MJ the greatest, then again, those who consider MJ the greatest because of 6 titles might not consider Shaq the greatest if all he has is 4...

In any case...let's just hope this doesn't happen, and let's hope it's our team that makes sure of it.


I think the debate that will come out of this if Shaq wins...is Dwayne Wade better than Kobe?

[airjer15]

Shaq may be the biggest player in the game, but MJ was the most athletic. Different attributes, but they both used their advantage to dominate. And I have never bought the idea that Shaq has no skills. He has very good foot work and is the best passing bigman in the game.
not only that, but he has great hands. if his teamates throw it his direction he will get it.

[bigzak25]

getting swept by the rockets when it counted most does not help his cause either.....

[PM5K]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*cough* *cough* *cough*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[TwoHandJam]

I'd be shocked if Shaq got past Detroit, much less the Spurs. Let's not let a game that slipped away go to our heads now. The Heat's record againt the west is pretty poor.

[Nikos]

Shaq should not be considered better than Jordan, even if he wins a title this season.

[timvp]

Geez! Could you imagine how big Shaq's already big head would get if this transpired?

I see your point and you are probably right, but not everyone considers MJ the greatest to begin with...he had a lot of help on those last 3 titles...

That last triple champion team you had a 55 win team without MJ playing...added to it was the greatest 3 point shooter ever, and one of the greatest rebounders ever.

Yep.

Shaq winning a championship with the Heat would be almost as impressive as Jordan winning one with the Wizards.

[timvp]

Shaq should not be considered better than Jordan, even if he wins a title this season.

Why? Explain.

[PM5K]

Yep.

Shaq winning a championship with the Heat would be almost as impressive as Jordan winning one with the Wizards.

The Heat won 42 games last season, the Wizards won 19 before Jordan arrived.

Are you on drugs right now or something?

[timvp]

How many games would the Heat have won without Odom, CButler and Grant?

Answer that and get off my nvts.

:flipoff

[Nikos]

Why? Explain.

Jordan was more durable, he played a lot of full seasons and didn't take as many nights off as Shaq for one thing.

Shaq had a few seasons where his teams simply did not always commit to defense, including himself. Little nicks here and there and Shaq would complain etc..His teams underacheived during the regular season.

Jordan has lead his teams to 72 wins, 69 wins, 67 wins and has had teams where both offense and defense were #1 in the league (in 9596 and 9697).

Sure he did not dominate single handedly on defense, but offensively he was a bit better than Shaq. He simply had more dominating seasons than Shaq.

Shaq in 1999-00 was nearly as good as Jordan, but even David Robinson had a season or two like that (minus the title however). But Kobe was no slouch in 1999-00 either.

Ultimately Jordans best teams were better than Shaq's and did not really underacheive all that much. You got the impression that Jordan wanted to cut your heart out every night, and he practically did. Shaq could not always keep that same focus on both ends in multiple seasons.

[Manu20]

Shaq= 3 rings and IF the Heat win this year that would be 4.
Jordan= 6 rings

I agree that he has a chance to become the best player ever but I think it won't happen because he will not win anymore championships. I think Lebron has a better shot at surpassing Jordan as the best player ever.(Aside from Timmy)

[PM5K]

How can you compare a 32 year old guy to a 41 year old guy?

Nikos I agree, that's what I always liked about Jordan, he always wanted to cut your heart out, he was always motivated to dominate anyone and everyone and there was no switch to turn off or on, he was on the moment he stepped on the court regardless of anything.

[Useruser666]

http://software.thenetdragon.net/referenced/forums.mozillazine/sheep.jpg

[picnroll]

Has Wade reach superstar or near superstar status? If so then Shaq has followed the standard formula of two superstars equals a championship. Wade will have to play consistently like he did against the Spurs, which was superstar level with 17 points in the fourth, for Miami to get past Detroit and the Spurs and win the title.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

That's not really a fair comparison LJ, Wade's been playing better than Kobe most of this year.

[Taco]

D. Wade 12-26 28 PTS

Spurs just couldn't hit a basket yesterday the shot 39%

Miami hit 52%

If they meet it the finals this will not happen again

[Jimcs50]

There is a huge difference betw being a great basketball player and a great presence on the floor. Shaq is not a great basketball player...he can dominate because of his size, but he is a good basketball player, not a great one.

MJ will be known as the greatest bball player way after Shaq retires.

[picnroll]

What were Wade's numbers and % in crunch time in the fourth? He played a whole game, assists, steals, rebounds, blocks and took over in the fourth in Manuesque fashion.

[tekdragon]

I'll buy this arguement with a minor change:


If the Miami Heat win the next three championships, Shaquille O'Neal will surpass Michael Jordan to become the greatest basketball player of all-time. He won three championships with the Lakers before Kobe's ego destroyed that franchise. He gets traded to a mediocre team for three of their best players yet still takes that team to a championship (or three). That is better credentials than anyone who has ever played. Shaq would become the best ever.

Then again, upon further review, my opinion is that the above would make Shaq the Most Valuable Player Ever...but I just can't bring myself to say, under any circumstances, that Shaq is a better basketball player than Jordan. Hell, Shaq will never be a better basketball player than Larry Bird. I don't care how many titles he wins. Most Valuable Ever, Most Dominant Ever, Best Quote Ever, he could go on to win the next 5 in a row and hold a claim to Most Successful Ever, but it's ridiculous to say that he could ever be the greatest basketball player ever, at least in terms of "most skilled" basketball player ever, which is implied when you boast "Greatest of All Time". Jordan, Magic, Bird, the Great Oscar Robertson...these are some the most skilled basketball players ever. The basketball equivalent of the "5-tool" player. Shaq, regardless of his myriad successes, is just not in the same class, and never will be. I'm a big Shaq fan now, but he doesn't have the outside shot, the handle, or the defensive intensity for me to consider him the Greatest Ever. The "5-tool" guys could beat you any number of ways...Shaq can beat you one of two ways: scoring in the post or passing out of it. If you can effectively double-team him or effectively deny the entry pass, while accurately defending the passing lanes, then he needs a play-maker to create on the perimeter. Jordan, Magic, Bird, O...these guys were the playmakers. They had the ball in their hand at the end of big games, they took the big shots, they single-handedly willed their teams to victory. Shaq makes his whole team better, but he relies on that team as much as they rely on him. He can't beat you alone.

[Jimcs50]

This debate is moot.

The Heat have no chance to win it all.

[SpursChampsIII]

I think has a little more talent than people give them credit for...Wade, E. Jones, D. Jones are not role players, they are PLAYERS. Not on his fattest day will Shaq ever have an impact on the game of basketball like Jordan did. Other than Pippen, what did Jordan ever have on his team...Cartwright, Kerr, etc.? You can idolize and spit all over that fat, trash talking b@$#!&^ if you like, but we'll see where his team is at the end.

[Spurminator]

Wade, E. Jones, D. Jones are not role players, they are PLAYERS.

D. Jones wouldn't have a job in this league if he wasn't getting wide open shots because of Shaq's presence on the floor. You have to give Shaq credit for how good many of the Heat roleplayers have suddenly gotten. It's no coincidence that suddenly Damon Jones and Udonis Haslem are putting up numbers.

[PM5K]

D. Jones wouldn't have a job in this league if he wasn't getting wide open shots because of Shaq's presence on the floor. You have to give Shaq credit for how good many of the Heat roleplayers have suddenly gotten. It's no coincidence that suddenly Damon Jones and Udonis Haslem are putting up numbers.

Damon Jones is actually averaging less points per minute than he was last year, sure his overall points per game are up but he's playing seven more minutes.

Udonis Haslem is in the same boat, he is actually averaging less points per minute than he did last year but his overall minutes have gone up as have his points.

Eddie Jones has played worse since Shaq arrived.

[timvp]

Jordan was more durable, he played a lot of full seasons and didn't take as many nights off as Shaq for one thing.

Shaq had a few seasons where his teams simply did not always commit to defense, including himself. Little nicks here and there and Shaq would complain etc..His teams underacheived during the regular season.

Jordan has lead his teams to 72 wins, 69 wins, 67 wins and has had teams where both offense and defense were #1 in the league (in 9596 and 9697).

Sure he did not dominate single handedly on defense, but offensively he was a bit better than Shaq. He simply had more dominating seasons than Shaq.

Shaq in 1999-00 was nearly as good as Jordan, but even David Robinson had a season or two like that (minus the title however). But Kobe was no slouch in 1999-00 either.

Ultimately Jordans best teams were better than Shaq's and did not really underacheive all that much. You got the impression that Jordan wanted to cut your heart out every night, and he practically did. Shaq could not always keep that same focus on both ends in multiple seasons.

When it's all said and done, nobody really cares how well you do in the regular season. Yeah Shaq didn't always try in regular season games, but when it mattered he led his teams well in the playoffs. Five trips to the finals and three rings ... nice so far.

Jordan was awesome and I'm a big fan of his, but he had the best perimeter defender of all-time next to him for all six rings and a bunch of very good role players. Shaq won with a boy wonder weirdo with a huge ego three times and made it to the finals once with a team full of players who were crap after he was no longer with them.

Right now, Shaq is a top ten ... maybe top five player ever. If he wins it all this season, I think he has to rise to number one. No player in NBA history could match that.

[SpursChampsIII]

D. Jones wouldn't have a job in this league if he wasn't getting wide open shots because of Shaq's presence on the floor. You have to give Shaq credit for how good many of the Heat roleplayers have suddenly gotten. It's no coincidence that suddenly Damon Jones and Udonis Haslem are putting up numbers.

If you place Duncan on this team instead of Shaq, you get the same results, if not better. As good as Manu and TP are, they are not D. Wade. My point is that Shaq DOES have a good supporting cast, but there are a few quality bigs you could put on that team and get the same, if not better results (i.e Duncan, J. O'Neal, to name a couple). If you put Wade on Indiana, do the Pacers not have the best team in the East? Look at the Heat's record against the best in the West and you have something like 2-9. Duncan's team has THE BEST RECORD in basketball...is he the best of all time?

[picnroll]

Thank god Detroit drafted Darko instead of Wade.

[timvp]

That's not really a fair comparison LJ, Wade's been playing better than Kobe most of this year.

Notice the pattern. Penny was awesome with Shaq. Kobe was awesome with Shaq. Now Wade is awesome with Shaq. He makes very good players into superstars.

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't think you can ask how many games the Heat would have won without Odom, Grant, and Butler, since absent the trade for Shaq, those guys would still be there, and with that trio + Wade and the remainder, the Heat would have been competing for a top 4-5 seed in the East. For crissakes, most made them prohibitive favorites to win the Southeast, even without Shaq, which would have made them a top 3 seed. This was not a bad Heat team as it stood, so the question is how much more of a difference does Shaq make, when compared to Odom, Grant, and Butler.

At this point, the evidence seems pretty compelling to say that he makes about a 10-15 win difference during the regular season.

But, I don't know that a Heat title this year would make Shaq the most valuable player in NBA history. Why should a player's value depend on winning in more than one place? That's obviously some evidence of his value -- impact on varying situations -- but there are plenty of players who would have had that kind of impact, given the chance to move from a good situation to another already-good situation. Could Jordan, if coupled with another All-Star by trade, have catapulted another franchise to a title in the mid-90's? Probably. Would that enhance his value? I don't think so.

[whottt]

TimVP, I think you underestimate the role Horry played in LA winning those titles. He helped them a whole lot.

[whottt]

And don't forget Shaq had Ho Grant, when he was an All Star caliber PF, on his team when the Magic made it to the finals.

[timvp]

There is a huge difference betw being a great basketball player and a great presence on the floor. Shaq is not a great basketball player...he can dominate because of his size, but he is a good basketball player, not a great one.

MJ will be known as the greatest bball player way after Shaq retires.

As I said, Shaq uses his advantage to make him dominant. MJ was as athletic as anyone who ever played ... which was his advantage.

Plus as has been mentioned, Shaq's foot work, passing and hands are as good as any bigman ever.

[picnroll]

Wadse was damn good without Shaq. He's upped his game but not anywhere necessarily because of Shaq. LeBron has upped his game and you can't give Shaq credit for that. Wade is growing. When he has an outside shot he'll be hellacious.

[jcrod]

When it's all said and done, nobody really cares how well you do in the regular season. Yeah Shaq didn't always try in regular season games, but when it mattered he led his teams well in the playoffs. Five trips to the finals and three rings ... nice so far.

Jordan was awesome and I'm a big fan of his, but he had the best perimeter defender of all-time next to him for all six rings and a bunch of very good role players. Shaq won with a boy wonder weirdo with a huge ego three times and made it to the finals once with a team full of players who were crap after he was no longer with them.

Right now, Shaq is a top ten ... maybe top five player ever. If he wins it all this season, I think he has to rise to number one. No player in NBA history could match that.


FUCK no, he not even close. Yeah he's gone 5 times and only came away with 3. Jordan went 6 times and came away with 6. Shag has nothing 7 feet away from the basket. I don't call that the greatest player of all time. He's the most dominate because of his size and they let him get away with the offensive fouls he almost always commits. And without that weirdo he doesn't win JACK! Kobe is the reason they always got past the spurs not Shaq. Wade was the best player last yr and he's still there, and is EJ. Sure I'll give him credit for making them a good basketball team. But Wade carried the team in the begining.

Jordan was dominate on every phase of the game, he didn't have any weakness and he just won. Shaq is not.

[timvp]

Kobe is the reason they always got past the spurs not Shaq.

Look at Kobe now. He's a ballhog who probably won't even lead his team to the playoffs. Look at Penny after he no longer played with Shaq.

Now look at Wade and see how he's become one of the best players in the league. It ain't luck this keeps happening.

[tekdragon]

Plus as has been mentioned, Shaq's foot work, passing and hands are as good as any bigman ever.

Gotta disagree.

His footwork is not as good as Hakeem's (or Tim's, for that matter), his passing isn't as good as KG's (if you don't consider KG a bigman, then substitute Vlade, who, in his prime, was a far better passer than Shaq, and one of the better passing bigmen in history), and his hands are not as good as Wilt's were. Kareem had great touch, too.

[jcrod]

Look at Kobe now. He's a ballhog who probably won't even lead his team to the playoffs. Look at Penny after he no longer played with Shaq.

Now look at Wade and see how he's become one of the best players in the league. It ain't luck this keeps happening.


Sure he's ballhogs more than he should, but he still averaging 7 per night. Second only to LJ at SG. He's still the best SG in the game, Shaq did not make him that. He made all the clutch plays for LA, not Shaq. Do they win without Kobe???? No. He'll Shaq is a big liablity during close games, Phill kept him out sometimes, you call that the greatest. Who knows about Penny, injuries has made him lose a lot. Wade was awesome last yr without him. Why do you think they wouldn't trade him, when LA wanted him more that any other.

[jalbre6]

timvp,

Jordan, with All-Star caliber talent like Pip and Rodman, won 72, 69, and then 62 with Chicago for their last three titles. Before the "retirement", with guys like Bill Cartwright and Horace Grant, he was winning 61, 57, and 67 for his first three.

MJ's 6-0 in the finals with 14 All-Star appearances, all-NBA 1st team 10 times, and 5 MVP's.

Shaq, with Penny back when Hardaway could play, carried a so-so Magic team to the finals at age 22. He didn't get back until teaming up with Kobe winning 67, 56, and 58 on their way to his three rings. Then they lost last year of course to the Pistons.

Shaq is 3-2 in the finals with 11 All-Star appearances, all-NBA 1st team 6 times, and one MVP.

But Shaq is also only 32. MJ at 32 still had two MVP's and three titles ahead of him.

If Shaq can play at the level that he is right now for the next three to five years, I think you can say that he approaches equality with Jordan. If he plays as long as Kareem did (or Jordan, for that matter) and still is able to dominate every night, then, MAYBE, he might surpass him.

Right now, and even if Miami win one this year, I don't believe Shaq is MJ's equal. He needs more. Then again, Shaq might be like an 18 time All Star and 12 time first team NBA'er by the time he's done. It's still too early.

[Nikos]

Regular season does mean something.

Shaq won 3 titles, MJ won 6 titles. Honestly I thought some of the Lakers runs were kind of shaky themselves but thats just my personal opinion. In 2000-01 the Spurs folded like a cheap suit vs LA, I never have seen any team give up the way they did -- they alone made the Lakers look awesome that year. Mediocre teams were giving the Lakers some close game in that playoffs. Injuries and giving up on the Spurs part made the Lakers look like world beaters.

BTW Penny was injured, plain and simple. Penny lead that Magic team to something like a 21-5 start, beating that 72 win Bulls team WITHOUT Shaq. Injuries screwed Penny Hardaway up, plain and simple.

I agree that Kobe is playing substandard ball this season, as a leader. But the season is not over yet. We will see how he fares.

Wade showed signs of very good basketball in the playoffs last season. He wasn't polished, but the talent was evident. He is a good player with or without Shaq as well.

I just do not think Shaq worked as hard on D as Hakeem, Drob, and even Ewing. He was slightly superior on offense in his best seasons, but defensively he was not always there.

Had he played more full seasons and been more dominant on D I might say he was as good or better than MJ, but he did not show that kind of effort or effectiveness on both ends of the court.

Keep in my mind in one playoff run Pippen was not nearly at full strength, and Jordan also willed his team to the title. He had some nice support pieces, but its not like Shaq has not had good support around him either.

Kobe, Horry, Glen Rice in 9900
Kobe, HoGrant, Fisher in 0001
Kobe, Horry, Fisher 0102

Thats not bad support. Kobe made the big shots, Horry did his thing, Fisher usually stepped up and played well in his role. HoGrant provided a solid defender and efficient offensive role player.

I just get the impression the Bulls were more dominant. Even when Pippen was hurt or and playing poorly Jordan still lead his teams to victories in the playoffs. Shaq did the same, but Kobe was reasonably healthy in most of his playoff games and did take over many games in the playoffs as well.

[wildbill2u]

If the Miami Heat win the championship, Shaquille O'Neal will surpass Michael Jordan to become the greatest basketball player of all-time. He won three championships with the Lakers before Kobe's ego destroyed that franchise. He gets traded to a mediocre team for three of their best players yet still takes that team to a championship. That is better credentials than anyone who has ever played. Shaq would become the best ever.

I don't know that Shaq will ever lay out for a couple of years and then come back to lead a team to the championship. He's never been able to simply put a team on his back and win like MJ did--in my opinion.

Having watched Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem in their prime, I'm don't even think he was the best all time center. Whatcha think about that?

[PM5K]

JORDAN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Shaq

[Frenchise player]

Shaq is the best player with 50%FT.
Jordan had everything, he was a scorer, he made everyone better, he is the reason why we invented the word clutch, but most important , he was a leader, what I don't really think Shaq is.
Does anyone ever questioned the fact that MJ was the boss of the league?
Shaq doesn't have the same aura.

[T Park]

Udonis Haslem are putting up numbers

Udonis Haslem was playing well last year, one of the biggest Spurs blunders of all time IMO, this guy is gonna turn into a hell of a player.


I agree with LJ's assesment.

Taking a group of rag tag players, and making them championship quality somethin else.

I dont respect the fat ass much, but, he got in shape, and hes bustin his ass. Hes earned a tiny bit of respect from me.


Does Stan Van Gundy deserve a little credit also?

[bigzak25]

Jordan will alway be tops in my mind cuz of his fire and sheer will to win. When you add it all up, the talent, heart, and the smart, he is just unmatched. I don't know how things play out if he doesn't take 2 years off....you could argue those were needed to keep from burnout or else the bulls 2nd 3-peet wouldn't have occurred. But to think that he could have led a modern era team to 8 straight titles....could have being key, but still...that is just amazing to think....not to mention the epic battles with the pistons, and him finally getting over the hump against that team....

[Ballcox]

Interesting topic for discussion. Well, this is coming from a guy who has NEVER liked Shaq, respected yes, liked-no freakin' way. However, I have to give credit where credit is due. Yes, Shaq is big, ok he's fucking huge. The way I look at it is he uses what he supposed to use to be a dominant basketball player. What can you do if Shaq is stronger and bigger than everyone else? He uses his size to his advantage. If I was Shaq I wouldn't give a shit about hitting fade away jumpers in the lane, or spotting up for open jumpers at the FT line. I would muscle guys down low in the paint, lower my shoulder into them, and physically dominate other teams, that just what Shaq does. In the same sense that you couldn't tell Jordan to not jump as high, not be more athletic than all other players, you can't expect Shaq to make any apologies for the way he plays ball. He uses his physical assets to their maximum potential, it just so happens that no one else in the league has those same physical assets. Just like when MJ was playing, nobody could match his physical assets. If you've got that advantage use it, hell, use it until you're too old or someone finally steps up and stops you, hasn't happened to Shaq yet.

Now, in terms of basketball talent and ability, Shaq (IMO) can't hold a candle to post players like our own DR and TD, Hakeem, McHale, Moses Malone, the list goes on and on. BUT, in terms of utilizing his physial assets on a basketball court, he does that damn well, to the tune of 3 rings. In my book he still has a ways to go to be considered the greatest player ever, but one of the best, sure.

:fro respect the 'fro

[Medvedenko]

Remember cats...it's all about the system....
Triangle Offense.....9 Rings
Phil Jax molded those players to even be in this discussion.

[jcrod]

Remember cats...it's all about the system....
Triangle Offense.....9 Rings
Phil Jax molded those players to even be in this discussion.

THe system helped, but it wasn't the SYSTEM. PHIL doesn't win jack, without MJ, SP, KB, Shaq. If he goes to a team that doesn't have 2 of the top five players in the game and wins. I'll give him all the credit in the world. Until then, he's won because of his players, not because of his coaching or system.

[Medvedenko]

You maybe right...but to consistently do it is pretty damn amazing...plus Pippen wasn't a top 50 player of all time until he won his first few championships. None of those players won jack, until Jax showed up.

[Mark in Austin]

Remember cats...it's all about the system....


ok, crumbs.

[exstatic]

If this "title" is based on championships, the Bill Russell is the best player of all time. His teams won 9 titles in 10 years.

[exstatic]

Triangle Offense.....9 Rings
Phil Jax molded those players to even be in this discussion.

Got two words for you: Tex Winter. Mr. Jackson will struggle in any subsequent coaching gigs without the old man to run his offense. Phil handles the players. The assistants handle the Xs and Os.

[T Park]

whats the difference between Pop and him?

Better assistants and players maybe.

[Rummpd]

Uh huh?????

Shaq in no way can be considered the greatest single player even if gets another championship. This guy has never led I believe a single statistical season category in the NBA, lags far behind improving a team coming into the league (ala David Robinson), never won multiple MVPS like Jordan or Kareem, and never won without another great player, i.e, Kobe, and yes he has that again = Wade. Much of the year, Wade has been the difference on that team as much as him. Kids a stud, Shaq helps make him great but the kid is great anyway period. Wade was the difference maker in late 4th like Kobe used to be most of time in LA runs.

[MosesGuthrie]

No player in NBA history could match that.

I disagree.

Sincerly,
Bill Russell


Dude's got 5 MVP's and 11 rings and was the most dominant player of his era and arguably the best to play the position.


Med is right, the system does help...Tex Winter's system.

[Gooshie]

I disagree.

Sincerly,
Bill Russell


Dude's got 5 MVP's and 11 rings and was the most dominant player of his era and arguably the best to play the position.


Med is right, the system does help...Tex Winter's system.

Sorry to bring this back to da front page, but I can't believe this thread went 3 pages until someone finally mentioned the name Bill Russell. Not only did the man win 11 titles in 13 years, he also made the Finals in his 2nd year and lost to the St. Louis Hawks and Bob Petitt. The only time he didn't make the Finals was in 1967, and it took a then-record 69 win Philly team led by Wilt to up-end them.

The dude won a title as a rookie, won 8 straight titles starting in his 3rd year, and then won back to back titles to close out his career. His last title was the sweetest, when the Celtics beat the Baylor/West/Wilt led Lakers in 7 Games. He was also player/HEAD COACH for his last 3 years (in which he won 2 rings). Want more? He led the unheard of University of San Francisco to 2 NCCA titles as a player, and also won an Olympic Gold Medal.

The dude changed the game with his defense and rebounding - Red Auerbach was able to invent the fast break because of his blocked shots and rebounding. He was unquestionably the best defensive player of all time, and one of the two best rebounders of all time along with Wilt. His offense, while not spectacular, was still very good. In fact, I would say that his offense was much better than Shaq's defense.

His detractors will point to the fact that he played with great teammates and for a great coach. Well, he won titles after Bob Cousy retired, and he won titles before John Havlicek was in the NBA. Yes, Auerbach was his coach for 9 of his titles, but Russell COACHED HIMSELF for 2 more championships.

Other detractors will say there weren't as many teams and rounds of playoffs back then. True, but 11 in 13 is still 11 in 13. And those Celtics teams still had to go through teams led by some of the greatest players ever: Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit, Reed, etc...Still others will say players weren't as big and strong back then they are now. That may be true, but how many players in NBA history were bigger and/or better than Chamberlain, who Russell had to battle almost every year in the playoffs?

Want even more? His record is something like 9-0 in GAME 7s!! Talk about a money player. Compare that to Shaq, who didn't even make the playoffs as a rookie, and then got SWEPT out of the playoffs in 94, 95, 96, 98 AND 99. That is 5 out of 6 years that his teams got SWEPT!!!!

I'm sorry, man, but I just get a little ticked off when Bill Russell isn't even in the conversation as the greatest player of all time. Peace out.

[IcemanCometh]

this is the dumbest thread timvp has ever started

[IcemanCometh]

seriously this is ghostwriter-esque

[IcemanCometh]

you claim shaq made penny and kobe into superstars and they were crap without him. wtf did jordan make pippen into, NBA's TOP 50 TEAM BITCH. what the hell did pippen do without Jordan, nothing but ass and titties son. best perimeter defender of all time my ass.

you claim mj was as athletic as anyone ever and that was his advantage. you know who was more athletic than mj? Harold Fucking Miner thats who. what the hell ever happened to that piece of shit.

seriously did ghostwriter get timvp's password or something.

[spursfaninla]

Jordan was the crunch-time player that Shaq is not, and cannot be.

Hakeem was not just THE MAN during the game,but also at the end. Its not just that Shaq is a low post player, and so less able to "create" for himself; he is able to be neutralized, historically, but double and triple-teaming, where Jordan ALWAYS found a way, no matter what.

Kobe was similar to Jordan in this way, though he was never clearly "THE MAN. " In this way, Kobe did his part, and Shaq did his. Jordan was better than either of them in every way; clutchness, playoff success, regular season success, scoring, "basketball IQ", leadership-you name it.

Now, IF Shaq wins without Kobe, we have to re-evaluate him. Even then, I don't think he has the AMAZING combination of skills that Jordan brought, including defense, leadership, clutch ability to score at the end of games, and finally basketball IQ, to reach Jordan's level. Jordan left the game (the first time) probably to have won the 2 in between that he didn't win, came back and won more, again probably capable of winning another or 2.

Shaq's best years are behind him; he can still have peak performances, but as we saw in the playoffs last year, without at least 2 days off he is not capable of big games anymore. And he can be neutralized, something that Jordan was never susceptible to.

I don't think you can isolate Russell as "the player" out of the celtic's success, though he did get the MVP's. He was not the offensive player, EVER, on that team, and thus did not have the chance to show his clutchness. He had everything else, though, including great leadership skills. He was a GREAT defensive player, and that is to be commended. And the fact that he was part of so much success means something. But I can't give him top 1-3, IMO. He is top 5, though.

[milkyway21]

let ShaQ surpass Jordan's all-time best regular season record first. lead his team to a 65 wins this season and let's see....
:rolleyes

[Guru of Nothing]

Bump!

[boutons_]

"He makes very good players into superstars."

Maybe 3 or 4 years ago, but not since. Shaq drew some attention this year, when he wasn't hurt or sitting with fouls, but Wade creates his own shots, and he hits them, with or without Shaq. Wade is pretty much 1 on 5.

[navarat]

Duncan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shaq!

[MoSpur]

He is the most dominant. Not the best ever. Michael Jordan is the best ever.

[ChumpDumper]

He was a great role player in this year's finals.

[ducks]

If the Miami Heat win the championship, Shaquille O'Neal will surpass Michael Jordan to become the greatest basketball player of all-time. He won three championships with the Lakers before Kobe's ego destroyed that franchise. He gets traded to a mediocre team for three of their best players yet still takes that team to a championship. That is better credentials than anyone who has ever played. Shaq would become the best ever.
wade carried them in finals
shaq was not a factor except fo r hack a shack

[ShoogarBear]

Shaq has averaged 67 regular season games per season for his career, 69 if you exclude the lockout year.

Only once in the last five years has he played over 70 games in the regular season.

MJ has six Finals MVPs. Shaq has three, got swept in one Finals, and in this one was a complete nutrider.

Don't buy it.

[jman3000]

Shaq has averaged 67 regular season games per season for his career, 69 if you exclude the lockout year.

Only once in the last five years has he played over 70 games in the regular season.

MJ has six Finals MVPs. Shaq has three, got swept in one Finals, and in this one was a complete nutrider.

Don't buy it.

Nice
:tu

[ShoogarBear]

He posted this back in February, so he was crazy well before the Spurs lost.

The fact that he became a smallball defender should have also tipped you off.

[kris]

I defend smallball too because he is right, the league is evolving. But this?

This is a low quality shock value post where he thinks he's right in his mind but in reality isn't all there. Maybe he can recant some of this based on the fact Shaq averaged 5 points in the finals. (exaggeration)

Nobody has come close to touching MJ. I thought Tim might, but he faded off.

[Supergirl]

Shaq is already in the top 5 players of all time. There's just no one else like him, and probably never will be. Jordan is the same way. But Jordan won more championships with less to work with in Chicago. Shaq may have come at the price of 3 top players but he still has Wade, and that's the reason why they won this year. Jordan's next best player in Chicago was...Pippen? On any other team, with any other players, Pippen is a scrub. With Jordan and Phil coaching, he became a star.

[kris]

Shaq is already in the top 5 players of all time. There's just no one else like him, and probably never will be. Jordan is the same way. But Jordan won more championships with less to work with in Chicago. Shaq may have come at the price of 3 top players but he still has Wade, and that's the reason why they won this year. Jordan's next best player in Chicago was...Pippen? On any other team, with any other players, Pippen is a scrub. With Jordan and Phil coaching, he became a star.


Pippen was awesome. He would never have been a scrub in his prime.

[spur219]

Shaq surpassing Jordan as the greatest of all time. Honestly I hope that statement was being sarcastic. Sure Shaq is great but surpass Jordan of greatest of all time. Come on now lets be real.

[1Parker1]

:lol Not even close.

[MoSpur]

I too hope Timvp was being sarcastice because that is way off.

[polandprzem]

STILL WITL WILL BE THE OST DOMINATN BASKETBALL PLAYER AND RUSSELL THE BEST CENTER IN HISTORY.
Shaq can fight for the 4th place as a best center. Now you must consider if Jordan was better then those centers.

[Darrin]

If the Miami Heat win the championship, Shaquille O'Neal will surpass Michael Jordan to become the greatest basketball player of all-time. He won three championships with the Lakers before Kobe's ego destroyed that franchise. He gets traded to a mediocre team for three of their best players yet still takes that team to a championship. That is better credentials than anyone who has ever played. Shaq would become the best ever.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar:
- Six-Time NBA MVP
- 38,387 points
- 17,440 rebounds
- 1,560 games
- Two Finals appearances with Milwaukee Bucks
- Eight Finals appearances with Los Angeles Lakers
- 1 NBA Championship with Milwaukee Bucks.
- 5 NBA Championships with Los Angeles Lakers.
- 19 All-Star Appearances.
- NBA Rookie of the Year.

Shaq hasn't got anything on him.

[clubalien]

remember that shaq isn't from this planet so shouldn't their be astricks by any award he holds?

[Guru of Nothing]

He posted this back in February, so he was crazy well before the Spurs lost.

The fact that he became a smallball defender should have also tipped you off.

February 2005

[ShoogarBear]

OMG, he's been hiding it longer than I thought!

[CharlieMac]

February 2005


I almost gave this dap too.

[E20]

They made trades after Shaq. Jason Williams, GP, Mourning came back, Antoine Walker, James Posey. Shaq scored 9 points and grabbed 12 rebounds in Game 6, Wade was the driving force behind the Heat, I didn't see Shaq hitting all those FT's.

MJ 6 Final MVPs
Shaq 3 Final MVPs

I always see hardware being the thing to count on this message board and there it is.

[timvp]

:lol

Yeah, February 2005. Meaning if the Heat won the title last year, it'd make Shaq the best ever. But this summer they got a whole new crew of players ... plus DWade became a Top 5 player in the game.

The Heat lost last year and Shaq didn't become the greatest player ever.

Now whether him winning this year has pushed him back past Tim Duncan is another story.

[J.T.]

Shaq rode wade for this one. I don't think he gets by Duncan with this one.

[whottt]

I predict this thread goes 10+ pages.


Strike one.

[whottt]

And BTW..........Wilt.

[RON ARTEST]

If the Miami Heat win the championship, Shaquille O'Neal will surpass Michael Jordan to become the greatest basketball player of all-time. He won three championships with the Lakers before Kobe's ego destroyed that franchise. He gets traded to a mediocre team for three of their best players yet still takes that team to a championship. That is better credentials than anyone who has ever played. Shaq would become the best ever.
damn i thought this was posted this year. :lol i was about to say you are the dumbest poster of all time besides the heat fans who said wade is better than kobe.

[MadDog73]

Now whether him winning this year has pushed him back past Tim Duncan is another story.


I smell another thread coming... and I vote no. :lol