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View Full Version : Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Bucks Nov. 12



timvp
11-14-2008, 06:48 AM
Needing all the wins they can muster, the San Antonio Spurs let one slip through their fingers on Wednesday night against the Milwaukee Bucks. Playing on the road, the Spurs couldn’t hold onto their 12-point halftime lead, falling by a final score of 82-78.

Trailing by 10 points with 3:15 to go in the game, the Spurs furiously rallied to make it a ballgame. After a Michael Finley three-pointer with 12 seconds remaining, Tim Duncan missed a five-footer with five seconds to go in the game that could have tied it.

Although the Bucks were playing without Michael Redd, I was impressed with how they performed. Scott Skiles has his team playing tough defense and rookie Luc Mbah a Moute looks like a second round steal. Mbah a Moute struggled at UCLA to score the basketball but on the NBA level, he has seemingly found his niche and now looks like a legitimate player.

Overall, the Spurs can’t be too disappointed with their effort. Their defense was good for a majority of the game and they did a good job of continually fighting back. The Spurs are going to struggle at times offensively with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili sidelined, and along with a poor rebounding effort, that’s what cost San Antonio.

Tim Duncan
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3173.jpg
35 minutes, 24 points, five rebounds, three blocks, four turnovers
10-for-20 from the field, 4-for-5 at the line

Tim Duncan didn’t have a very good game at all against the Bucks. He had a four minute stretch at the end of the fourth quarter where he took over and scored 14 straight points but other than stretch, he was definitely sub par. What stood out the most was his inability to rebound. Five boards isn’t going to cut it, especially when the player he was guarding, Andrew Bogut, had 17 rebounds. Duncan also wasn’t very good distributing the ball, as he finished with twice as many turnovers as assists. The Spurs need Duncan to play like a superstar to win right now – and they didn’t get that on Wednesday night.
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Roger Mason, Jr.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3628.jpg
31 minutes, six points, five rebounds, four assists
2-for-10 from the field, 2-for-5 on three-pointers

Roger Mason, Jr. had his first disappointing game in a Spurs uniform. Mason again struggled with his shot, but this time he didn’t make up for it in other areas. Instead, he stopped being aggressive offensively and stopped helping boards. In the second half, Mason seemed to lose confidence and missed the only two shots he attempted. It was only a matter of time before Mason was going to cool off, but now he’s shooting just 27% over his last three games. Hopefully he can get back to the rhythm he had to begin the season.
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Ime Udoka
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3501.jpg
16 minutes, three points
1-for-5 from the field, 1-for-2 on three-pointers

Pop gave Ime Udoka a huge opportunity when he handed Ime Udoka the starting small forward job. After two games, Udoka has done all he can to make Pop regret that decision. After a poor debut in the starting lineup, Udoka followed it up with an even worse performance. He’s now 3-for-15 from the field as a starter. Against the Bucks, Udoka failing to grab a single board or hand out a single assist was inexcusable. I’m not sure if Udoka is pressing now because he’s a starter, but whatever the reasoning is he needs to turn it around. If not, Bowen may find himself back in the starting lineup out of necessity.
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George Hill
http://www.iupuijags.com/images/2007/12/12/player_hill.jpg
22 minutes, four points, three assists, three rebounds
2-for-5 from the field, 0-for-1 on three-pointers

George Hill’s second start didn’t go nearly as well as his debut. While his stats look decent, his actual play was much worse. His aggressiveness on the offensive end was non-existent for much of the game. Eventually, Pop had to look elsewhere because Hill was stagnating the offense. Defensively, Hill was decent but not as good as we’ve previously seen out of him. Going forward, Hill needs to up his aggression on offense or else Pop is going to lose confidence in him. The one thing we known about Pop is that he won’t stand for passive point guard play.
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Fabricio Oberto
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3988.jpg
16 minutes, one point, five rebounds
1-for-2 at the line

After Fabricio Oberto’s best game of the early season, he followed it up with another stale performance. His rebounding was actually good but he wasn’t helping out in other areas. His defensive rotations were a step slow and he wasn’t closing off the paint at all. Offensively, Oberto didn’t even get off a shot. While this wasn’t a horrible showing from the Argentine bigman, the Spurs need more than simply decent play.
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Michael Finley
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3023.jpg
30 minutes, 19 points, four rebounds, three assists
8-for-12 from the field, 3-for-6 on three-pointers

After a horrible shooting slump, Michael Finley has now put together two really good games. Once again, Finley got into rhythm by rebounding and moving without the ball on offense. For the first three quarters of the game, Finley even played good defense. But it was his offense which helped keep the Spurs in the game. Finley has been valuable in his two games off the bench, which will hopefully continue down the line. Without him against the Bucks, the Spurs likely would have gotten blown out in the second half.
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Anthony Tolliver
http://msn.foxsports.com/fe/img/NBA/Headshots/140x170/4371.jpg
28 minutes, nine points, six rebounds, three assists
4-for-10 from the field, 1-for-6 on three-pointers

Anthony Tolliver is quickly earning more and more minutes. Against Milwaukee, Tolliver played 28 minutes of the bench and performed quite well. His energy is infectious on both ends of the court. He gives good effort going for rebounds and his defense is already pretty solid. Offensively, I’ve been very impressed by his passing abilities. For a bigman, he’s a heady passer who can even handle the ball a little bit. Tolliver’s weakness remains his shooting, as he shot 1-for-6 from three-point range for the second consecutive game. If he can start making his threes, he could really become a weapon for the Spurs.
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Bruce Bowen
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3167.jpg
27 minutes, four points, four rebounds
2-for-3 from the field

Coming off the bench for the second consecutive game, Bruce Bowen once again played relatively well. He was a pest on defense and pulled down a few tough rebounds. Offensively, Bowen didn’t force anything but did a good job of staying involved. Since going to the bench, there has been an obvious increase of energy out of Bowen. Earlier in the season it looked like his NBA career might be done, but if the last two games are any indication, Bowen’s career still a pulse.
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Jacque Vaughn
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3195.jpg
20 minutes, four rebounds, six assists
1-for-4 from the field, 2-for-2 at the line

Bouncing back from a poor game, Jacque Vaughn actually played well against the Bucks. He’s going to be an offensively liability any way you slice it with Parker and Ginobili out, but he did his part by handing out six assists and pushing the pace. Defensively, Vaughn was very solid, especially in the first half. If Hill struggles in upcoming games, expect to see more and more of Vaughn, whether you look it or not.
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Kurt Thomas
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3012.jpg
13 minutes, four points, four rebounds
2-for-5 from the field


Like Bowen, Kurt Thomas has begun to show some life after losing his usual spot in the rotation. Now that he’s the team’s fourth bigman, Thomas is playing tougher and with more heart. While his lack of mobility is still hurting the team, he seems to be slowly but surely rounding into form. His rebounding and post defense were two bright spots in Wednesday night’s game.
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Gregg Popovich
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/popovich_gregg030428.jpg

I though Pop coached well enough for the Spurs to win. He has a difficult juggling act right now because he has to find combinations that can make up for the lack of scoring without being too porous defensively. On top of that, he has to find a way to limit Duncan’s minutes. Rebounding was a problem but considering the Spurs played two bigmen together for 44 of the 48 minutes, you can’t put too much of that blame on Pop. I like how he’s giving Tolliver extended minutes even though there are a lot of other bigs who have more experience and are being paid a lot more. Regarding Hill, Pop needs to be patient and let him learn on the fly. Benching him like he did against the Bucks won’t help him figure things out.
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Offense

A lack of aggressiveness doomed the Spurs offensively. The guards, namely Hill and Mason, didn’t attack nearly enough. The lack of aggression was evident in the fact that the team had only nine free throw attempts in the game – and five of those were in the final three minutes. With Parker and Ginobili out, the guards need to be attack mode for 48 minutes and the bigs need to crash the offensive glass. Otherwise, the Spurs are going to end up depending on three-point shooting and heroics from Duncan each and every night.

Defense

The defense wasn’t the problem. The rotations were good for most of the night and the Spurs competed very well. Milwaukee finished with a field goal percentage of 41.3% and they hit only 2-of-11 three-pointers. Rebounding, however, negated a lot of the defensive effort. Allowing the Bucks to get 14 offensive rebounds was the number one reason for the loss. Last season, the Spurs were the best defensive rebounding team in basketball. This season ... not so much. Hopefully this game is a lesson that even if you play good defense, it doesn’t matter if you can’t get the resulting rebound.

Drive to Survive

Next up on the schedule for San Antonio is the Houston Rockets. Usually, no matter which players are in uniform, games between the Spurs and the Rockets are close. However, with the Rockets healthy and the Spurs not, this one may get out of hand unless San Antonio plays much better than they did against the Bucks. A win against the Rockets would be huge at this point of the season.

Believe.

BG_Spurs_Fan
11-14-2008, 07:22 AM
Hey. Long time reader, first time poster, you know how it is.

Timvp thanks for the great info you provide. I'd like to ask you what you think of our rebounding issues. I think this is one of the main reasons we're having problems right now and having in mind our second best rebounder Kurt cannot get off the bench for more than 12-15 mins a night, what do you think the Spurs can do to address this?

Currently we have enough guys who'd play good defense, and just about enough fire power to survive until Tony and Manu come back, but rebounding is holding the team back IMO and even when Manu and Tony are back they will not exactly solve this problem. Until recently we've been the best team in the NBA grabbing defensive rebounds and right now ( with not much better or worse personnel ) we allow too many second chance points. Do you think it's a matter of making the right rotations on defense, or just hustle more or do you think there is any other way the Spurs can progress in this department?

Thanks.

timvp
11-14-2008, 07:32 AM
Hey. Long time reader, first time poster, you know how it is.

Timvp thanks for the great info you provide. I'd like to ask you what you think of our rebounding issues. I think this is one of the main reasons we're having problems right now and having in mind our second best rebounder Kurt cannot get off the bench for more than 12-15 mins a night, what do you think the Spurs can do to address this?

Currently we have enough guys who'd play good defense, and just about enough fire power to survive until Tony and Manu come back, but rebounding is holding the team back IMO and even when Manu and Tony are back they will not exactly solve this problem. Until recently we've been the best team in the NBA grabbing defensive rebounds and right now ( with not much better or worse personnel ) we allow too many second chance points. Do you think it's a matter of making the right rotations on defense, or just hustle more or do you think there is any other way the Spurs can progress in this department?

Thanks.

It's difficult to pinpoint where the problem lies when it comes to rebounding. Last year, the Spurs used more small ball and they still were the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA.

I think Pop tried to address the rebounding issue by putting Udoka into the starting lineup, but Udoka hasn't produced nearly enough as a starter -- especially in the rebounding department.

Against the Bucks, it seemed like the Spurs were concentrating so much on making the right rotations, that they weren't putting themselves in the position to rebound. Plus, Duncan himself was responsible for a lot of the rebounding disadvantage. Considering that the Bucks outrebounded the Spurs by 10 and Duncan got outrebounded by Bogut by 12, that was a lot of the problem.

I expect the Spurs to figure out their rebounding problem. Udoka will eventually turn it around and Duncan usually bounces back after a poor rebounding game. As long as Oberto, Tolliver and Thomas hold their own, the Spurs should be fine rebounding-wise.

Plus, Ginobili is a deceptively good rebounder, especially when it comes to getting contested rebounds. Once he returns, that should help the rebounding on the whole.

mrspurs
11-14-2008, 07:56 AM
Excellent read and views. I think you can easily sum up our lack of rebounding to this. Lack of talent on the court. Thats what it all comes down to. Regardless of injuries, I thought we had more talent then the bucks and the wolves. Im missing my guesses as the games go bye. Ill say this for a team that has 2 of its starters out. We're not playing as bad as alot of people may have thought. Look at the Mavs for example. Our records are the same. We have 2 great excuses, they have none.

kobyz
11-14-2008, 07:57 AM
Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

urunobili
11-14-2008, 08:16 AM
Since Carlesimo Left the Spurs are having issues on offense... i'll start a thread about that later... a stretch like the one we went at the begging of the 4th quarter when we were up 10 points and suffered a 21-2 stretch is inexcusable..t he defense is good enough...

timvp
11-14-2008, 08:19 AM
Hey. Long time reader, first time poster, you know how it is.

Oh and welcome to the forum :tu

tav1
11-14-2008, 08:21 AM
Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

Duncan doesn't have a rebounding problem. He had a sub par game, that's it.

gingerwave
11-14-2008, 08:24 AM
Every team will have an off night every now and then.

SenorSpur
11-14-2008, 10:12 AM
It's difficult to pinpoint where the problem lies when it comes to rebounding. Last year, the Spurs used more small ball and they still were the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA.

I think Pop tried to address the rebounding issue by putting Udoka into the starting lineup, but Udoka hasn't produced nearly enough as a starter -- especially in the rebounding department.

Which is very odd, considering the fact that Udoka was one of the better rebounding forwards on the team last year. Even when his shooting was streaky, he always seemed to exert himself on the glass - which was very good considering his size.

Dex
11-14-2008, 10:14 AM
Every team will have an off night every now and then.

The problem is, this actually looked like an on night for the Spurs until the fourth quarter struck. Suddenly, what seemed like a game what was completely under control flip-flopped into the Spurs fighting and clawing down ten.

While it was nice to see the team find a comfort zone that was cushy enough to ALLOW them to lose focus, the Spurs can't afford to let too many wins slip away right now.

SenorSpur
11-14-2008, 10:22 AM
Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

Noticed the same thing too. Since he's not the overly athletic type, Duncan typically gets his rebounds off size, positioning and guile - rather than sheer tenacity. I agree with your point in that lately, it seems as though he's been giving up a lot of unnecessary defensive rebounds.

Bender
11-14-2008, 10:25 AM
I'm not looking at the Box now, but I remember a couple spurs equaled tim on rebounds (5) and I think Tolliver had 6, in less time.

SenorSpur
11-14-2008, 10:27 AM
I'm not looking at the Box now, but I remember a couple spurs equaled tim on rebounds (5) and I think Tolliver had 6, in less time.

Exactly. Tolliver led the team in rebounds, while playing less minutes than Duncan. This cannot happen. TD MUST lead the team in double-digit rebounds, otherwise he's not doing his job.

Brazil
11-14-2008, 10:37 AM
Exactly. Tolliver led the team in rebounds, while playing less minutes than Duncan. This cannot happen. TD MUST lead the team in double-digit rebounds, otherwise he's not doing his job.


I think that during the game he is mainly focused to give 25-30 points per game to compensate TP and Manu scoring, IMO this effort or focus is pumping his energy.

BG_Spurs_Fan
11-14-2008, 10:49 AM
I think that during the game he is mainly focused to give 25-30 points per game to compensate TP and Manu scoring, IMO this effort or focus is pumping his energy.


I really don't think that's what Pop has told him. He hasn't tried more than 20 FGA in Tony's and Manu's absence, he's still playing the system, not trying to dominate and take over, and that working well against the Knicks, but I guess Milwaukee was just a night off for him ( reboundingwise ). If Timmy concentrates on just scoring, and Kurt Thomas gets 10mins a game,then who's gonna rebound at all?

He'll be back to his usual 11/12 per game, but Ime, Tolliver and whoever plays more between Kurt and Oberto have to do much better. Also mason and Hill gotta try to compensate a bit what Manu's been doing, i.e. grabbing the long ones that are out of reach for the bigs.

Bender
11-14-2008, 11:05 AM
oberto rebounded well against the bucks.

I hate it when he slaps balls out to the perimeter, half the time the opponents get it

mrspurs
11-14-2008, 11:23 AM
Noticed the same thing too. Since he's not the overly athletic type, Duncan typically gets his rebounds off size, positioning and guile - rather than sheer tenacity. I agree with your point in that lately, it seems as though he's been giving up a lot of unnecessary defensive rebounds.

Hey your eyes are not bad at all. This is what I meant when I said with manu and tp out. Now it will be easy to spot timmys weaknesses.(all problems age wont fix). This was from not only last season but the one before. The FO has done a poor job of helping out Timmy and it starting to show. He has carried the paint on his own while other teams keep stacking and stacking. And with Pop starting this trend last season of(we are down by 20 its time to throw in the towel). It has slipped into this one. If you can support your best big man, and you cant get their attention. Then somewhere down the line sooner or later something has to change. I personally dont think its Timmys fault. I will however say I dont it when veteran players and coaches start playing or coaching like George Karl and his Denver Nuggets. Guys just collecting checks. No more No less.

mrspurs
11-14-2008, 11:24 AM
oberto rebounded well against the bucks.

I hate it when he slaps balls out to the perimeter, half the time the opponents get it

Thats how the rebound in the WNBA.

mrspurs
11-14-2008, 11:28 AM
And lets not forget the Knicks were playing with guys who are Kurt Thomas's height not Boguts height. We all know timmy cant jump. If he played against guys Kurts height night in and night out timmy would be this years mvp easily. But thats not gonna happen. If you cant get him help, what do you expect.

SenorSpur
11-14-2008, 11:43 AM
Hey your eyes are not bad at all. This is what I meant when I said with manu and tp out. Now it will be easy to spot timmys weaknesses.(all problems age wont fix). This was from not only last season but the one before. The FO has done a poor job of helping out Timmy and it starting to show. He has carried the paint on his own while other teams keep stacking and stacking.

Precisely. They've tried several players at the backup C/PF position, however the results have been mixed. Last year, the Spurs settled on KT. Unfortunately, they got him about 5 years too late. Oberto is smart, but gravity-challenged and getting old. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing Tim trying to man the paint virtually by himself. I look forward to seeing the continued contributions of Tolliver. Also, it'll be interesting to see what contributions Ian can make once he comes off injury.


I personally dont think its Timmys fault.
I have a hard time faulting Tim too. Simply because he's often without consistent, adequate frontline help. However, I will say that I don't want to see another 5 rebound game for the rest of his Spurs career. He should get 10-12 simply on skill.

HarlemHeat37
11-14-2008, 11:46 AM
Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

didn't Tim average like 17 rebounds in the Lakers series?..

timvp
11-14-2008, 11:50 AM
Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!


Noticed the same thing too.


Hey your eyes are not bad at all.

Duncan averaged 17.4 rebounds per game last year against the Lakers. He never had a single game with less than 15 rebounds. Saying Duncan has a rebounding problem and pointing to the Lakers series is like saying Parker has a scoring problem and pointing to the Minnesota game :lol

timvp
11-14-2008, 11:51 AM
didn't Tim average like 17 rebounds in the Lakers series?..

:lol Beat me to it.

In the last ten games of last year's playing, Duncan averaged 16.7 rebounds per game. I'd bet that was the best 10-game rebounding stretch in Duncan's career. I know it's the cool thing to do to say the sky is falling but let's keep it in the realm of reality.

urunobili
11-14-2008, 12:05 PM
Duncan averaged 17.4 rebounds per game last year against the Lakers. He never had a single game with less than 15 rebounds. Saying Duncan has a rebounding problem and pointing to the Lakers series is like saying Parker has a scoring problem and pointing to the Minnesota game :lol

well it's tough to also make him be considered a monster... he was playing against Gasol...

Dwight Howard would have averaged 25...

timvp
11-14-2008, 12:07 PM
well it's tough to also make him be considered a monster... he was playing against Gasol...

Dwight Howard would have averaged 25...
:rolleyes

And the excuse against the Hornets?

urunobili
11-14-2008, 12:09 PM
:rolleyes

And the excuse against the Hornets?

you didn't mention the Hornets on THAT post :toast

Against Chandler and D-West he was good... but remember some of the meltdowns he had against them on that series too...

xtremesteven33
11-14-2008, 12:10 PM
Lack of focus

timvp
11-14-2008, 12:12 PM
you didn't mention the Hornets on THAT post :toast

Against Chandler and D-West he was good... but remember some of the meltdowns he had against them on that series too...
Yeah, when he was sick.

Are you on the "Duncan can't rebound anymore" bandwagon or are you trying to prove some different point?

urunobili
11-14-2008, 12:16 PM
Yeah, when he was sick.

Are you on the "Duncan can't rebound anymore" bandwagon or are you trying to prove some different point?

No i am not in that bandwagon at all. I was trying to bring a different aspect to the topic.

Duncan has consistently been the best big man of this league since he joined it... that ain't changing anytime soon... that includes the rebounding category

His Playoffs numbers rebounding wise were impressive, but as you know numbers not always tell the story of the whole thing... from there my comments...

timvp
11-14-2008, 12:19 PM
No i am not in that bandwagon at all. I was trying to bring a different aspect to the topic.

Duncan has consistently been the best big man of this league since he joined it... that ain't changing anytime soon... that includes the rebounding category

His Playoffs numbers rebounding wise were impressive, but as you know numbers not always tell the story of the whole thing... from there my comments...Obviously numbers don't tell the whole story but trying to twist 17.4 rebounds per game into proof that Duncan's rebounding has been a problem ...... is a stretch.

Man Mountain
11-14-2008, 12:50 PM
I think you are being too hard on George Hill he might not haved been great but he was goooood. Pop screwed teh pooch by benching him and lost us the game Hillwould have got those rebounds.

Obstructed_View
11-14-2008, 02:49 PM
Good thoughts. One thing, though: A reason Mbah A Moute looked good at times is because Tolliver just left him alone too much. Tolliver has won me over with his contributions, but hopefully that part of his defense gets shored up.

Brazil
11-14-2008, 03:04 PM
I really don't think that's what Pop has told him. He hasn't tried more than 20 FGA in Tony's and Manu's absence, he's still playing the system, not trying to dominate and take over, and that working well against the Knicks, but I guess Milwaukee was just a night off for him ( reboundingwise ). If Timmy concentrates on just scoring, and Kurt Thomas gets 10mins a game,then who's gonna rebound at all?

He'll be back to his usual 11/12 per game, but Ime, Tolliver and whoever plays more between Kurt and Oberto have to do much better. Also mason and Hill gotta try to compensate a bit what Manu's been doing, i.e. grabbing the long ones that are out of reach for the bigs.

It's a good point you're right : he's still playing the system but I think that he must feel the burden of the responsability of maintaining the spurs alive especially on the offense...

well I don't know. As he is the only all star in this team today may be we are focusing too much on him.

Bender
11-14-2008, 03:06 PM
One thing, though: A reason Mbah A Moute looked good at times is because Tolliver just left him alone too much.Moute made two long 2 pointers in a row, from the same spot, on consecutive possessions IIRC... nobody around him either time. I expected to see Pop jumping up and down and yelling on the sidelines, but he wasn't

Obstructed_View
11-14-2008, 03:10 PM
Moute made two long 2 pointers in a row, from the same spot, on consecutive possessions IIRC... nobody around him either time. I expected to see Pop jumping up and down and yelling on the sidelines, but he wasn't

Yeah, Tolliver left him both times, plus he got beat down the floor a couple of times too during that same run. Again, not the end of the world for a young player that's doing some other good things, but still something he's hopefully being made aware of since it could have been the difference in the game.

timvp
11-14-2008, 03:47 PM
Moute made two long 2 pointers in a row, from the same spot, on consecutive possessions IIRC... nobody around him either time. I expected to see Pop jumping up and down and yelling on the sidelines, but he wasn't

I'm almost positive the reason things played out that way is because it was in the Spurs' gameplan to give Mbah a Moute the outside jumper. In college, the guy was a horrrrrrrible shooter. Even in the NBA, he hadn't be too great from the outside.

I'm pretty sure Tolliver was leaving him open due to what the scouting report said. Even when Mbah a Moute caught the ball, the Spurs weren't rotating to cover him.

Either the Spurs scouts had it wrong or Mbah a Moute had the shooting game of his life. I really don't think it was a Tolliver mistake.

z0sa
11-14-2008, 04:36 PM
I'm almost positive the reason things played out that way is because it was in the Spurs' gameplan to give Mbah a Moute the outside jumper. In college, the guy was a horrrrrrrible shooter. Even in the NBA, he hadn't be too great from the outside.

I'm pretty sure Tolliver was leaving him open due to what the scouting report said. Even when Mbah a Moute caught the ball, the Spurs weren't rotating to cover him.

Either the Spurs scouts had it wrong or Mbah a Moute had the shooting game of his life. I really don't think it was a Tolliver mistake.

God forbid Bonner having made the same mistakes. I've never seen him leave someone like Tolliver did on two consecutive possessions, same spot, same guy, everything. Tolliver deserves the doghouse for this and I hope he gets it.

timvp
11-14-2008, 04:45 PM
God forbid Bonner having made the same mistakes. I've never seen him leave someone like Tolliver did on two consecutive possessions, same spot, same guy, everything. Tolliver deserves the doghouse for this and I hope he gets it.

Bonner probably would have closed out on the shooter against Pop's orders and then gotten benched.

z0sa
11-14-2008, 04:50 PM
Bonner probably would have closed out on the shooter against Pop's orders and then gotten benched.

So you're saying after he just swished a wide open jumper, to not close out on him the second time?

C'mon.

timvp
11-14-2008, 04:51 PM
So you're saying after he just swished a wide open jumper, to not close out on him the second time?

C'mon.

If the scouting report was to let him shoot, Tolliver did the right thing. Considering no help defender tried to rotate and Pop didn't get mad, I'm assuming that's what happened.

z0sa
11-14-2008, 04:51 PM
The problem I have is yours/Pop's attitude - like its not a big deal. Had Bonner done the same thing, he would never get playing time again (if he were in tolliver's shoes I mean - as it is he may never see the court again anyway).

Seriously ridiculous.

z0sa
11-14-2008, 04:52 PM
If the scouting report was to let him shoot, Tolliver did the right thing. Considering no help defender tried to rotate and Pop didn't get mad, I'm assuming that's what happened.

I doubt the scouting report said refuse to guard him. Also, no matter what Pop said, the guy just swished one the previous possession - you gotta at least get a hand up this time. Again, I find it hard to believe Bonner would have been let go giving the other team 4 points, which was part of that big run.

You do realize we lost by 4 points?

BigVee
11-14-2008, 04:55 PM
I saw Mbah a Moute play many times at UCLA. Dude never made a shot beyond 8 feet. I was shocked when he made the first one, and beyond shocked when he made the second. He was always left open in college and never made any shots. The defense was by design for sure.

timvp
11-14-2008, 04:55 PM
The problem I have is yours/Pop's attitude - like its not a big deal. Had Bonner done the same thing, he would never get playing time again (if he were in tolliver's shoes I mean - as it is he may never see the court again anyway).

Seriously ridiculous.I'll have to disagree. If Bonner followed the scouting report, Pop wouldn't have had a problem.


I doubt the scouting report said refuse to guard him.Even though Mbah a Moute is about a 20% shooter from that range in his college and NBA career?

SenorSpur
11-14-2008, 04:57 PM
I'm almost positive the reason things played out that way is because it was in the Spurs' gameplan to give Mbah a Moute the outside jumper. In college, the guy was a horrrrrrrible shooter. Even in the NBA, he hadn't be too great from the outside.

I'm pretty sure Tolliver was leaving him open due to what the scouting report said. Even when Mbah a Moute caught the ball, the Spurs weren't rotating to cover him.

Either the Spurs scouts had it wrong or Mbah a Moute had the shooting game of his life. I really don't think it was a Tolliver mistake.

That's true about Mbah a Moute. In fact, that was the book on him coming out of the draft. I had the benefit of getting the Bucks telecast and broadcast team. They indicated that Mbah a Moute had been working with a shooting coach to improve his jumper. Appears to be paying some early dividends.

z0sa
11-14-2008, 04:57 PM
I'll have to disagree. If Bonner followed the scouting report, Pop wouldn't have had a problem.

Even though Mbah a Moute is about a 20% shooter from that range in his college and NBA career?

I'm not doubting yours or Pop's knowledge. I'm just confused as to why the second shot wasn't guarded, minimum, and why he is not being put at fault. Surely Tolliver was planning on boxing him out, right? How do you box some one out 15 feet away? Had the scouting report been right and he missed, you're getting a long rebound. Tolliver was underneath the basket.

Obstructed_View
11-14-2008, 05:45 PM
I wonder if the scouting report told Tolliver to let Moute beat him down the floor for layups.

timvp
11-14-2008, 05:52 PM
I wonder if the scouting report told Tolliver to let Moute beat him down the floor for layups.I'm guessing not. Especially considering Mbah a Moute scored his 11 points on three jumpers and five free throws.

:wakeup

kobyz
11-14-2008, 06:50 PM
Duncan averaged 17.4 rebounds per game last year against the Lakers. He never had a single game with less than 15 rebounds. Saying Duncan has a rebounding problem and pointing to the Lakers series is like saying Parker has a scoring problem and pointing to the Minnesota game :lol

you just look at the numbers!! if you saw the games you could see that Duncan was give up rebounds that he should not, if you remember - one game in this series we lost for one reason - that the lakers were killing us on the offensive rebound and Duncan had big part in that!

Obstructed_View
11-14-2008, 06:54 PM
I'm guessing not. Especially considering Mbah a Moute scored his 11 points on three jumpers and five free throws.

:wakeup

When Tolliver was harassing Sessions in the back court and Moute got the long pass in the paint, resulting in an intentional foul by Finley, I'm curious how two made free throws instead of a layup makes Tolliver's defense acceptible to you. It happened with 6:58 to go. Let me know when you go back and watch it instead of checking the box score. Also go back a few minutes earlier and watch when Tolliver got himself screened by his own man on the first jumper and failed to rotate on the second and try to figure how his great scouting ability played into it, particularly since Tolliver didn't leave him alone on the outside again in the game.

Obstructed_View
11-14-2008, 06:57 PM
you just look at the numbers!! if you saw the games you could see that Duncan was give up rebounds that he should not, if you remember - one game in this series we lost for one reason - that the lakers were killing us on the offensive rebound and Duncan had big part in that!

Dude, it's seriously weak to try to blame Duncan for poor rebounding when he rebounded better than he normally does. There's just no way to defend it. Just admit that it was a dumb thing to say and move on.

kobyz
11-14-2008, 07:09 PM
Dude, it's seriously weak to try to blame Duncan for poor rebounding when he rebounded better than he normally does. There's just no way to defend it. Just admit that it was a dumb thing to say and move on.

but it's true! Duncan of the past were average 20 rebounds against Gasol and Odom as bigs, i remember this series and i remember that Duncan give up rebounds that he was not used to give in the past.

Obstructed_View
11-14-2008, 07:31 PM
but it's true! Duncan of the past were average 20 rebounds against Gasol and Odom as bigs, i remember this series and i remember that Duncan give up rebounds that he was not used to give in the past.

First of all, Pau Gasol is a career 9 rebound per game guy, and Odom averaged 11 rebounds per game last year, so acting like they are somehow James Edwards and Brad Lohaus is almost as stupid as saying Duncan "only" pulled down 17 boards per game when playing against both of them. Second, 17 boards per game against those guys in a playoff series is a far far far far fucking cry from pulling down 5 against Milwaukee, particularly when he'd been averaging 11.2 per game this regular season prior to that game.

If he pulls down 5 rebounds tonight, come back and bitch. You'll still be wrong, but at least you'll have twice as much evidence as you have right now. If he pulls down 14 rebounds against Yao and Scola, I'm sure we won't hear anything about it.

ShoogarBear
11-14-2008, 08:24 PM
I'm starting to think that Tolliver may have a little Robert Horry in him.

Obstructed_View
11-14-2008, 11:47 PM
If he pulls down 5 rebounds tonight, come back and bitch.

Okay, I'm waiting....:lol

slayermin
11-14-2008, 11:54 PM
Okay, I'm waiting....:lol

Even though he only had five, it seemed like he got all the big rebounds tonight.

kobyz
11-14-2008, 11:56 PM
Okay, I'm waiting....:lol

i dont have any intention to bitch and it's hard to me to say this cause Duncan is my favorit player of all time and this somthing that worry me a lot but it's what i see - i see decline in Duncan rebounding and i dont have explanation why...

Obstructed_View
11-15-2008, 12:02 AM
i dont have any intention to bitch and it's hard to me to say this cause Duncan is my favorit player of all time and this somthing that worry me a lot but it's what i see - i see decline in Duncan rebounding and i dont have explanation why...

I just wanted to make sure you knew I put my chin out there... :)

Strangely, tonight didn't feel like a bad rebounding game for him. He gave up the really bad one to Brooks in the first quarter, He's kind of been out of position lately, but it could have something to do with the fact that he's working so much harder on defense. I have a feeling he'll be able to put it all together once everyone continues to improve as a team. They've gotten so much better the last four or five games that there's probably no reason to panic.

How nice would that Milwaukee game have been, NOW, though?