Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Bucks Nov. 12

[timvp]

Needing all the wins they can muster, the San Antonio Spurs let one slip through their fingers on Wednesday night against the Milwaukee Bucks. Playing on the road, the Spurs couldn’t hold onto their 12-point halftime lead, falling by a final score of 82-78.

Trailing by 10 points with 3:15 to go in the game, the Spurs furiously rallied to make it a ballgame. After a Michael Finley three-pointer with 12 seconds remaining, Tim Duncan missed a five-footer with five seconds to go in the game that could have tied it.

Although the Bucks were playing without Michael Redd, I was impressed with how they performed. Scott Skiles has his team playing tough defense and rookie Luc Mbah a Moute looks like a second round steal. Mbah a Moute struggled at UCLA to score the basketball but on the NBA level, he has seemingly found his niche and now looks like a legitimate player.

Overall, the Spurs can’t be too disappointed with their effort. Their defense was good for a majority of the game and they did a good job of continually fighting back. The Spurs are going to struggle at times offensively with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili sidelined, and along with a poor rebounding effort, that’s what cost San Antonio.

Tim Duncan

35 minutes, 24 points, five rebounds, three blocks, four turnovers
10-for-20 from the field, 4-for-5 at the line

Tim Duncan didn’t have a very good game at all against the Bucks. He had a four minute stretch at the end of the fourth quarter where he took over and scored 14 straight points but other than stretch, he was definitely sub par. What stood out the most was his inability to rebound. Five boards isn’t going to cut it, especially when the player he was guarding, Andrew Bogut, had 17 rebounds. Duncan also wasn’t very good distributing the ball, as he finished with twice as many turnovers as assists. The Spurs need Duncan to play like a superstar to win right now – and they didn’t get that on Wednesday night.
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Roger Mason, Jr.

31 minutes, six points, five rebounds, four assists
2-for-10 from the field, 2-for-5 on three-pointers

Roger Mason, Jr. had his first disappointing game in a Spurs uniform. Mason again struggled with his shot, but this time he didn’t make up for it in other areas. Instead, he stopped being aggressive offensively and stopped helping boards. In the second half, Mason seemed to lose confidence and missed the only two shots he attempted. It was only a matter of time before Mason was going to cool off, but now he’s shooting just 27% over his last three games. Hopefully he can get back to the rhythm he had to begin the season.
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Ime Udoka

16 minutes, three points
1-for-5 from the field, 1-for-2 on three-pointers

Pop gave Ime Udoka a huge opportunity when he handed Ime Udoka the starting small forward job. After two games, Udoka has done all he can to make Pop regret that decision. After a poor debut in the starting lineup, Udoka followed it up with an even worse performance. He’s now 3-for-15 from the field as a starter. Against the Bucks, Udoka failing to grab a single board or hand out a single assist was inexcusable. I’m not sure if Udoka is pressing now because he’s a starter, but whatever the reasoning is he needs to turn it around. If not, Bowen may find himself back in the starting lineup out of necessity.
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George Hill

22 minutes, four points, three assists, three rebounds
2-for-5 from the field, 0-for-1 on three-pointers

George Hill’s second start didn’t go nearly as well as his debut. While his stats look decent, his actual play was much worse. His aggressiveness on the offensive end was non-existent for much of the game. Eventually, Pop had to look elsewhere because Hill was stagnating the offense. Defensively, Hill was decent but not as good as we’ve previously seen out of him. Going forward, Hill needs to up his aggression on offense or else Pop is going to lose confidence in him. The one thing we known about Pop is that he won’t stand for passive point guard play.
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Fabricio Oberto

16 minutes, one point, five rebounds
1-for-2 at the line

After Fabricio Oberto’s best game of the early season, he followed it up with another stale performance. His rebounding was actually good but he wasn’t helping out in other areas. His defensive rotations were a step slow and he wasn’t closing off the paint at all. Offensively, Oberto didn’t even get off a shot. While this wasn’t a horrible showing from the Argentine bigman, the Spurs need more than simply decent play.
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Michael Finley

30 minutes, 19 points, four rebounds, three assists
8-for-12 from the field, 3-for-6 on three-pointers

After a horrible shooting slump, Michael Finley has now put together two really good games. Once again, Finley got into rhythm by rebounding and moving without the ball on offense. For the first three quarters of the game, Finley even played good defense. But it was his offense which helped keep the Spurs in the game. Finley has been valuable in his two games off the bench, which will hopefully continue down the line. Without him against the Bucks, the Spurs likely would have gotten blown out in the second half.
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Anthony Tolliver

28 minutes, nine points, six rebounds, three assists
4-for-10 from the field, 1-for-6 on three-pointers

Anthony Tolliver is quickly earning more and more minutes. Against Milwaukee, Tolliver played 28 minutes of the bench and performed quite well. His energy is infectious on both ends of the court. He gives good effort going for rebounds and his defense is already pretty solid. Offensively, I’ve been very impressed by his passing abilities. For a bigman, he’s a heady passer who can even handle the ball a little bit. Tolliver’s weakness remains his shooting, as he shot 1-for-6 from three-point range for the second consecutive game. If he can start making his threes, he could really become a weapon for the Spurs.
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Bruce Bowen

27 minutes, four points, four rebounds
2-for-3 from the field

Coming off the bench for the second consecutive game, Bruce Bowen once again played relatively well. He was a pest on defense and pulled down a few tough rebounds. Offensively, Bowen didn’t force anything but did a good job of staying involved. Since going to the bench, there has been an obvious increase of energy out of Bowen. Earlier in the season it looked like his NBA career might be done, but if the last two games are any indication, Bowen’s career still a pulse.
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Jacque Vaughn

20 minutes, four rebounds, six assists
1-for-4 from the field, 2-for-2 at the line

Bouncing back from a poor game, Jacque Vaughn actually played well against the Bucks. He’s going to be an offensively liability any way you slice it with Parker and Ginobili out, but he did his part by handing out six assists and pushing the pace. Defensively, Vaughn was very solid, especially in the first half. If Hill struggles in upcoming games, expect to see more and more of Vaughn, whether you look it or not.
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Kurt Thomas

13 minutes, four points, four rebounds
2-for-5 from the field


Like Bowen, Kurt Thomas has begun to show some life after losing his usual spot in the rotation. Now that he’s the team’s fourth bigman, Thomas is playing tougher and with more heart. While his lack of mobility is still hurting the team, he seems to be slowly but surely rounding into form. His rebounding and post defense were two bright spots in Wednesday night’s game.
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Gregg Popovich


I though Pop coached well enough for the Spurs to win. He has a difficult juggling act right now because he has to find combinations that can make up for the lack of scoring without being too porous defensively. On top of that, he has to find a way to limit Duncan’s minutes. Rebounding was a problem but considering the Spurs played two bigmen together for 44 of the 48 minutes, you can’t put too much of that blame on Pop. I like how he’s giving Tolliver extended minutes even though there are a lot of other bigs who have more experience and are being paid a lot more. Regarding Hill, Pop needs to be patient and let him learn on the fly. Benching him like he did against the Bucks won’t help him figure things out.
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Offense

A lack of aggressiveness doomed the Spurs offensively. The guards, namely Hill and Mason, didn’t attack nearly enough. The lack of aggression was evident in the fact that the team had only nine free throw attempts in the game – and five of those were in the final three minutes. With Parker and Ginobili out, the guards need to be attack mode for 48 minutes and the bigs need to crash the offensive glass. Otherwise, the Spurs are going to end up depending on three-point shooting and heroics from Duncan each and every night.

Defense

The defense wasn’t the problem. The rotations were good for most of the night and the Spurs competed very well. Milwaukee finished with a field goal percentage of 41.3% and they hit only 2-of-11 three-pointers. Rebounding, however, negated a lot of the defensive effort. Allowing the Bucks to get 14 offensive rebounds was the number one reason for the loss. Last season, the Spurs were the best defensive rebounding team in basketball. This season ... not so much. Hopefully this game is a lesson that even if you play good defense, it doesn’t matter if you can’t get the resulting rebound.

Drive to Survive

Next up on the schedule for San Antonio is the Houston Rockets. Usually, no matter which players are in uniform, games between the Spurs and the Rockets are close. However, with the Rockets healthy and the Spurs not, this one may get out of hand unless San Antonio plays much better than they did against the Bucks. A win against the Rockets would be huge at this point of the season.

Believe.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Hey. Long time reader, first time poster, you know how it is.

Timvp thanks for the great info you provide. I'd like to ask you what you think of our rebounding issues. I think this is one of the main reasons we're having problems right now and having in mind our second best rebounder Kurt cannot get off the bench for more than 12-15 mins a night, what do you think the Spurs can do to address this?

Currently we have enough guys who'd play good defense, and just about enough fire power to survive until Tony and Manu come back, but rebounding is holding the team back IMO and even when Manu and Tony are back they will not exactly solve this problem. Until recently we've been the best team in the NBA grabbing defensive rebounds and right now ( with not much better or worse personnel ) we allow too many second chance points. Do you think it's a matter of making the right rotations on defense, or just hustle more or do you think there is any other way the Spurs can progress in this department?

Thanks.

[timvp]

Hey. Long time reader, first time poster, you know how it is.

Timvp thanks for the great info you provide. I'd like to ask you what you think of our rebounding issues. I think this is one of the main reasons we're having problems right now and having in mind our second best rebounder Kurt cannot get off the bench for more than 12-15 mins a night, what do you think the Spurs can do to address this?

Currently we have enough guys who'd play good defense, and just about enough fire power to survive until Tony and Manu come back, but rebounding is holding the team back IMO and even when Manu and Tony are back they will not exactly solve this problem. Until recently we've been the best team in the NBA grabbing defensive rebounds and right now ( with not much better or worse personnel ) we allow too many second chance points. Do you think it's a matter of making the right rotations on defense, or just hustle more or do you think there is any other way the Spurs can progress in this department?

Thanks.

It's difficult to pinpoint where the problem lies when it comes to rebounding. Last year, the Spurs used more small ball and they still were the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA.

I think Pop tried to address the rebounding issue by putting Udoka into the starting lineup, but Udoka hasn't produced nearly enough as a starter -- especially in the rebounding department.

Against the Bucks, it seemed like the Spurs were concentrating so much on making the right rotations, that they weren't putting themselves in the position to rebound. Plus, Duncan himself was responsible for a lot of the rebounding disadvantage. Considering that the Bucks outrebounded the Spurs by 10 and Duncan got outrebounded by Bogut by 12, that was a lot of the problem.

I expect the Spurs to figure out their rebounding problem. Udoka will eventually turn it around and Duncan usually bounces back after a poor rebounding game. As long as Oberto, Tolliver and Thomas hold their own, the Spurs should be fine rebounding-wise.

Plus, Ginobili is a deceptively good rebounder, especially when it comes to getting contested rebounds. Once he returns, that should help the rebounding on the whole.

[mrspurs]

Excellent read and views. I think you can easily sum up our lack of rebounding to this. Lack of talent on the court. Thats what it all comes down to. Regardless of injuries, I thought we had more talent then the bucks and the wolves. Im missing my guesses as the games go bye. Ill say this for a team that has 2 of its starters out. We're not playing as bad as alot of people may have thought. Look at the Mavs for example. Our records are the same. We have 2 great excuses, they have none.

[kobyz]

Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

[urunobili]

Since Carlesimo Left the Spurs are having issues on offense... i'll start a thread about that later... a stretch like the one we went at the begging of the 4th quarter when we were up 10 points and suffered a 21-2 stretch is inexcusable..t he defense is good enough...

[timvp]

Hey. Long time reader, first time poster, you know how it is.

Oh and welcome to the forum

[tav1]

Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

Duncan doesn't have a rebounding problem. He had a sub par game, that's it.

[gingerwave]

Every team will have an off night every now and then.

[SenorSpur]

It's difficult to pinpoint where the problem lies when it comes to rebounding. Last year, the Spurs used more small ball and they still were the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA.

I think Pop tried to address the rebounding issue by putting Udoka into the starting lineup, but Udoka hasn't produced nearly enough as a starter -- especially in the rebounding department.

Which is very odd, considering the fact that Udoka was one of the better rebounding forwards on the team last year. Even when his shooting was streaky, he always seemed to exert himself on the glass - which was very good considering his size.

[Dex]

Every team will have an off night every now and then.

The problem is, this actually looked like an on night for the Spurs until the fourth quarter struck. Suddenly, what seemed like a game what was completely under control flip-flopped into the Spurs fighting and clawing down ten.

While it was nice to see the team find a comfort zone that was cushy enough to ALLOW them to lose focus, the Spurs can't afford to let too many wins slip away right now.

[SenorSpur]

Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

Noticed the same thing too. Since he's not the overly athletic type, Duncan typically gets his rebounds off size, positioning and guile - rather than sheer tenacity. I agree with your point in that lately, it seems as though he's been giving up a lot of unnecessary defensive rebounds.

[Bender]

I'm not looking at the Box now, but I remember a couple spurs equaled tim on rebounds (5) and I think Tolliver had 6, in less time.

[SenorSpur]

I'm not looking at the Box now, but I remember a couple spurs equaled tim on rebounds (5) and I think Tolliver had 6, in less time.

Exactly. Tolliver led the team in rebounds, while playing less minutes than Duncan. This cannot happen. TD MUST lead the team in double-digit rebounds, otherwise he's not doing his job.

[Brazil]

Exactly. Tolliver led the team in rebounds, while playing less minutes than Duncan. This cannot happen. TD MUST lead the team in double-digit rebounds, otherwise he's not doing his job.

I think that during the game he is mainly focused to give 25-30 points per game to compensate TP and Manu scoring, IMO this effort or focus is pumping his energy.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I think that during the game he is mainly focused to give 25-30 points per game to compensate TP and Manu scoring, IMO this effort or focus is pumping his energy.

I really don't think that's what Pop has told him. He hasn't tried more than 20 FGA in Tony's and Manu's absence, he's still playing the system, not trying to dominate and take over, and that working well against the Knicks, but I guess Milwaukee was just a night off for him ( reboundingwise ). If Timmy concentrates on just scoring, and Kurt Thomas gets 10mins a game,then who's gonna rebound at all?

He'll be back to his usual 11/12 per game, but Ime, Tolliver and whoever plays more between Kurt and Oberto have to do much better. Also mason and Hill gotta try to compensate a bit what Manu's been doing, i.e. grabbing the long ones that are out of reach for the bigs.

[Bender]

oberto rebounded well against the bucks.

I hate it when he slaps balls out to the perimeter, half the time the opponents get it

[mrspurs]

Noticed the same thing too. Since he's not the overly athletic type, Duncan typically gets his rebounds off size, positioning and guile - rather than sheer tenacity. I agree with your point in that lately, it seems as though he's been giving up a lot of unnecessary defensive rebounds.

Hey your eyes are not bad at all. This is what I meant when I said with manu and tp out. Now it will be easy to spot timmys weaknesses.(all problems age wont fix). This was from not only last season but the one before. The FO has done a poor job of helping out Timmy and it starting to show. He has carried the paint on his own while other teams keep stacking and stacking. And with Pop starting this trend last season of(we are down by 20 its time to throw in the towel). It has slipped into this one. If you can support your best big man, and you cant get their attention. Then somewhere down the line sooner or later something has to change. I personally dont think its Timmys fault. I will however say I dont it when veteran players and coaches start playing or coaching like George Karl and his Denver Nuggets. Guys just collecting checks. No more No less.

[mrspurs]

oberto rebounded well against the bucks.

I hate it when he slaps balls out to the perimeter, half the time the opponents get it

Thats how the rebound in the WNBA.

[mrspurs]

And lets not forget the Knicks were playing with guys who are Kurt Thomas's height not Boguts height. We all know timmy cant jump. If he played against guys Kurts height night in and night out timmy would be this years mvp easily. But thats not gonna happen. If you cant get him help, what do you expect.

[SenorSpur]

Hey your eyes are not bad at all. This is what I meant when I said with manu and tp out. Now it will be easy to spot timmys weaknesses.(all problems age wont fix). This was from not only last season but the one before. The FO has done a poor job of helping out Timmy and it starting to show. He has carried the paint on his own while other teams keep stacking and stacking.

Precisely. They've tried several players at the backup C/PF position, however the results have been mixed. Last year, the Spurs settled on KT. Unfortunately, they got him about 5 years too late. Oberto is smart, but gravity-challenged and getting old. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing Tim trying to man the paint virtually by himself. I look forward to seeing the continued contributions of Tolliver. Also, it'll be interesting to see what contributions Ian can make once he comes off injury.

I personally dont think its Timmys fault.

I have a hard time faulting Tim too. Simply because he's often without consistent, adequate frontline help. However, I will say that I don't want to see another 5 rebound game for the rest of his Spurs career. He should get 10-12 simply on skill.

[HarlemHeat37]

Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

didn't Tim average like 17 rebounds in the Lakers series?..

[timvp]

Duncan rebounding problam is very worrying, it's somthing that start in last year playoffs series against the lakers and it's continue this season, he just give up a lot of rebounds that he used to take easily in the past. i dont know what happened to him!!

Noticed the same thing too.

Hey your eyes are not bad at all.

Duncan averaged 17.4 rebounds per game last year against the Lakers. He never had a single game with less than 15 rebounds. Saying Duncan has a rebounding problem and pointing to the Lakers series is like saying Parker has a scoring problem and pointing to the Minnesota game

[timvp]

didn't Tim average like 17 rebounds in the Lakers series?..

Beat me to it.

In the last ten games of last year's playing, Duncan averaged 16.7 rebounds per game. I'd bet that was the best 10-game rebounding stretch in Duncan's career. I know it's the cool thing to do to say the sky is falling but let's keep it in the realm of reality.

[urunobili]

Duncan averaged 17.4 rebounds per game last year against the Lakers. He never had a single game with less than 15 rebounds. Saying Duncan has a rebounding problem and pointing to the Lakers series is like saying Parker has a scoring problem and pointing to the Minnesota game

well it's tough to also make him be considered a monster... he was playing against Gasol...

Dwight Howard would have averaged 25...