The Doghouse Effect

[GSH]

The Spurs' system, under Greg Popovich, has produced the best winning percentage of any team in any major professional sport over the last decade. It's hard to argue with those numbers. There are a lot of players who would not fit well into the system, and are never considered for the team. But there are others who turn out not to be a good fit after they get here. That doesn't mean that they are bad players - just that they don't fit The System.

The idea behind a system is that it keeps working when you plug in new pieces. But sometimes it seems like the system must be incredibly hard to fit into. Not only have some seemingly-perfect players done poorly after coming here, the roster always seems to have a player or two who are actually worse for the experience. Whether it is being in Pop's infamous "doghouse", or just the misery of not fitting in and losing minutes, it seems to suck the life right out of them. Usually one of them is on the way out the door, and the next one already has a target on his chest.

Ime Udoka and Matt Bonner are currently at the top of the list. (But it's easy to see how the next generation could include Roger Mason and/or George Hill.) When Bonner came to the Spurs, he brought instant energy to games - digging for rebounds and loose balls, hitting a couple of shots when the team was in a scoring funk, or putting some "body english" on one of the opposing players. (Sound like any other former-Spurs?) Ime Udoka was the heir apparent to Bruce Bowen - an agile player who could defend well and hit 3-pointers from the corner. An article about Ime described him playing ball in Africa, and rescuing a teammate from an after-game brawl by kicking ass "like a ninja". After their first seasons they both looked like great additions to the team, and the fans were riding the bandwagon in their favor.

So what happens to players between Year 1 and Year 2? Did those guys really get worse, rather than better? They've definitely had some bad performances in games. But then again, both of them have looked hesitant, and that's no way to shoot a basketball - or defend for that matter. That look reminds me a lot of some other Spurs "under-achievers" in the past.

A Lot Better Than Spurs Gave Them Credit For: Hedo Turkoglu & Beno Udrih

"Hustle" Players Who Didn't Fit The Mold: Malik Rose & Devin Brown (Matt Bonner?)

Looked Solid Everywhere Else: Antonio Daniels, Speedy Claxton, Jason Hart

Second Big... Second Year... Second Class: Rasho, Nazr, Francisco (Kurt Thomas?)

Under-appreciated And Un-Signed: Stephen Jackson & Derek Anderson

Where Careers Go To Die: Steve Smith (Michael Finley?)

Sometimes players lose minutes because they don't perform. But some players also lose confidence, and don't perform, because they lose minutes. Ime and Bonner already look like casualties, but Mason and Hill didn't look like the same players in the last game, either. Too often, that's the first step on the road to The Doghouse.

[superbigtime]

It's also known as BAD COACHING. Rasho is excelling in Indiana...averaging over 3 apg even! Pop somehow beats confidence out of all but the most resolute players (Tony, Manu, Brent). Even Tim looks so hesitant these days.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

It's also known as BAD COACHING. Rasho is excelling in Indiana...averaging over 3 apg even! Pop somehow beats confidence out of all but the most resolute players (Tony, Manu, Brent). Even Tim looks so hesitant these days.

Rasho plays much better as a #1 option when it comes to the bigman rotation. If anything, his inability to play with TD where he was a secondary man on the floor hurt him much more than simply "bad coaching".

And Stephen Jackson wanted too much money initially, and by the time he tried to go back to SA, they had already used up their cap space. If you look at his 1 year deal with Atlanta for the 2003-2004 season, it wasn't exactly big money when compared to what he was hoping to get.

[TDMVPDPOY]

hedo and malik wasnt worth their contract when we signed them

rasho was overpaid, but thats the price for a big man during the time we signed him

steph was fukn lowballed for no reason, he was at least worth the money hedo, malik was getting per season......this costs us a 3peat or even 4rings in a row.

[superbigtime]

Rasho plays much better as a #1 option when it comes to the bigman rotation. If anything, his inability to play with TD where he was a secondary man on the floor hurt him much more than simply "bad coaching".

And Stephen Jackson wanted too much money initially, and by the time he tried to go back to SA, they had already used up their cap space. If you look at his 1 year deal with Atlanta for the 2003-2004 season, it wasn't exactly big money when compared to what he was hoping to get.

So are you telling me that these players that didn't work out one way or another were coached well when they were with the Spurs? I know Beno is now the starting PG for the kings but even when he was the Bibby backup, how was Reggie freaking Theus getting more out of him than the Spurs were. Why does Turkoglu light fire to everyone's pants in Orlando but had confidence issues as a Spur? Why does Kurt Thomas suck? Maybe he's not quite in game shape, but the dude got zero minutes the other night. Zero. Pop doesn't need to make men out of boys, but that seems to be his MO alot of the time. And alot of players do not respond to that very well. I think Pop's skill as a motivator does not work with every one and for those who it doesn't, it becomes a vicious cycle that keeps them in the doghouse.

[Kori Ellis]

Hedo and Beno are good where they are, but they didn't flourish here. Not every player works everywhere. Hedo's passive play in the postseason put the nail in his San Antonio coffin, but he's good. Beno - he was given plenty of chances in San Antonio and was often out of shape, lazy or hurt.

Malik played EIGHT years in San Antonio - I don't know why he's on this list. If he didn't have a fat contract, despite his antics sometimes, he would still be here. He was very loved in the organization.

Devin was late to practice with regularity and very immature here. He had trouble even getting a contract in recent years after being with the Spurs.

Speedy and Jason Hart have looked solid elsewhere? Speedy is a china doll who averages about 50 games a season. He was overhyped as a Spur after 2-3 good games. He isn't all that.

Jason Hart averaged 2 points and shot around 30 percent last season.

Rasho was solid here and very appreciated by the coaching staff and his teammates - just not by Spurs fans. If he made less money, he'd probably still be here.

Stephen Jackson wasn't signed because his agent is an ass. Spurs couldn't force him to take their offer.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not sure Ime Udoka was ever the heir apparent to Bruce Bowen except in the fantasies of Spurs fans. He's shorter and slower. He would be a fine 3rd/4th swingman in another organization, but he's just the odd man out here because all the other wings are better than him.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I'm not sure Ime Udoka was ever the heir apparent to Bruce Bowen except in the fantasies of Spurs fans. He's shorter and slower. He would be a fine 3rd/4th swingman in another organization, but he's just the odd man out here because all the other wings are better than him.

i say we work his ass off then trade him back to the blazers for batum or someshit...he has to be worth something....

[Kori Ellis]

If the Spurs didn't have Mason, then Udoka would probably be able to get regular minutes and see what he can do. But the Spurs are really deep at the wings. Somebody has to be the odd man out, and Ime is just the one. If Finley falls off significantly, maybe Ime could work himself back in. But it's probably better to try to deal him for a big body or a pick.

[T Park]

It's also known as BAD COACHING. Rasho is excelling in Indiana...averaging over 3 apg even! Pop somehow beats confidence out of all but the most resolute players (Tony, Manu, Brent). Even Tim looks so hesitant these days.

Just curious, what coach is available right now, should be coaching instead of Popovich, whos considered one of the top 10 all time best basketball coaches......

[TDMVPDPOY]

Just curious, what coach is available right now, should be coaching instead of Popovich, whos considered one of the top 10 all time best basketball coaches......

PJ carlisemo knows the system, he could replace POP....then maybe he can ride duncans coat tails for a few season to bump up his coaching record b4 he bolts to another team

[T Park]

PJ carlisemo knows the system, he could replace POP....then maybe he can ride duncans coat tails for a few season to bump up his coaching record b4 he bolts to another team

:lmao

PJ Carlisimo is the Speedy Claxton of Spurs coaching.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Just curious, what coach is available right now, should be coaching instead of Popovich, whos considered one of the top 10 all time best basketball coaches......

SAM MITCHELL!

[T Park]

SAM MITCHELL!

Yeahhhh

[ata]

....
Rasho was solid here and very appreciated by the coaching staff and his teammates - just not by Spurs fans. If he made less money, he'd probably still be here.
...


Do you think, that there is chance for Rasho to play in SA next season (for reasonable money)?

[SpurSupremacist]

Spot on. One of the better posts I have read.

[Capt Bringdown]

I've wondered why some players get treated with kid gloves. NVE for example...there seemed to be no limit to the number of shitty performances NVE was granted by Pop.

[GSH]

hedo and malik wasnt worth their contract when we signed them

rasho was overpaid, but thats the price for a big man during the time we signed him

steph was fukn lowballed for no reason, he was at least worth the money hedo, malik was getting per season......this costs us a 3peat or even 4rings in a row.

If you look at how Hedo performed here, he may have been overpaid. But if you look at his performance in Orlando he was (and still is) a bargain. Besides... you aren't suggesting he played worse here because he was overpaid?

We paid too much for Malik, but that's not his fault. It's also totally beside the point. In 2002, the year after he signed that contract, he had the best all-around season of any Spur not named Duncan, Parker, or Ginobili, since the David Robinson era - and he still got into Pop's doghouse. That year, Malik scored 822 points, had 506 rebounds, and went to the line 306 times. (He also dished out 124 assists, for good measure.) Since 2002, the only Spurs other than the Big 3 to better any of those numbers were:
Points - Stephen Jackson (946 points in '02) and Finley (826 points in '07)
Rebounds - Nazr (586 in '04) and Rasho (633 in '03)
FTA - Nobody. Next closest was Nazr (227 in '04)

A couple of people (other than the Big 3) out-scored him for a single season. A couple out-rebounded him for a single season. But nobody else put it all together in a single season the way he did that year. But that wasn't enough to keep him out of the doghouse.

The next season, Malik's minutes dropped by 35%. And all of his numbers dropped by.... yep, almost exactly 35%. While he was on the floor, he put up numbers at almost exactly the same pace as the year before - but he got deeper, and deeper into Pop's doghouse.

I know the stats don't tell the whole story, but you can't totally ignore them either. Like the fact that in the last decade, nobody other than Duncan and Ginobili got to the free throw line as much, or as consistently as Malik. (Including Parker) And nobody other than Duncan pulled down as many rebounds, on a Per-40 basis. If Duncan had that kind of help against the Mavs a few years ago, we would probably have another trophy.

I don't think it's even a chicken-or-egg proposition. Malik started looking worse because Pop was beating the crap out of him all the time, and not the other way around. Because, like it or not, if he was playing that badly, his numbers would have shown it at least a little - but they didn't.

Tony Parker responded well to Pop beating the shit out of him. But just because it works sometimes doesn't mean it's necessary. It sure as hell didn't help Malik or Hedo Turkoglu. And he beat the life out of Beno and Rasho. Ime and Bonner aren't the same players they were when they arrived. I can see the same thing possibly happening to Hill, and Mason just deciding that he doesn't want to be here. For that matter, I think it had more than a little influence on Splitter deciding to stay in Europe.

[GSH]

Hedo and Beno are good where they are, but they didn't flourish here. Not every player works everywhere. Hedo's passive play in the postseason put the nail in his San Antonio coffin, but he's good. Beno - he was given plenty of chances in San Antonio and was often out of shape, lazy or hurt.

Malik played EIGHT years in San Antonio - I don't know why he's on this list. If he didn't have a fat contract, despite his antics sometimes, he would still be here. He was very loved in the organization.

Devin was late to practice with regularity and very immature here. He had trouble even getting a contract in recent years after being with the Spurs.

Speedy and Jason Hart have looked solid elsewhere? Speedy is a china doll who averages about 50 games a season. He was overhyped as a Spur after 2-3 good games. He isn't all that.

Jason Hart averaged 2 points and shot around 30 percent last season.

Rasho was solid here and very appreciated by the coaching staff and his teammates - just not by Spurs fans. If he made less money, he'd probably still be here.

Stephen Jackson wasn't signed because his agent is an ass. Spurs couldn't force him to take their offer.

I hate to disagree with you, but I do:

Maybe it's a question of cause-and-effect. Hedo sure as hell isn't passive in Orlando. And Beno doesn't appear to be out of shape, lazy, or hurt since he left SA.

Hart isn't a first-tier PG, but he's not a bad guy to have on the bench either. When Brevin Knight went down in Charlotte, Hart was a damned good replacement. He averaged around 11 points and 6.5 assists, plus around 3.5 boards, as a starter. He started 20+ games for the Clippers and put up close to the same there. For a backup, that's solid. Jacque Vaughn's career season was around 6.5 points and 4 assists.

Okay, Claxton has had a lot of injuries. Maybe the Spurs had a crystal ball? But when he's been healthy, he's been solid for other teams. I didn't say he was a top-5 PG... just solid.

Stephen Jackson played one year at a lower salary, and earned a big contract the next year. Isn't that what Mason did? And didn't Pop commend him for it? Financially, he made the right move, even over the 3-year term we offered him. In the long term, he did a lot better.

Derek Anderson laid it on the line for the Spurs, and delivered the goods. I know they were trying to sign Duncan, but they screwed up ignoring him. Period. He put up 15.5 ppg, 4.4 boards, 3.7 assists, and shot .399 from the 3P line. He got to the line 402 times, and I don't think we have ever run the fast break as well as we did that season. I didn't like the way he handled the break-up either, but I can understand him feeling slighted.

Devin scored 611, 670, and 586 points in the 3 years after he left the Spurs, and continued to shoot around .400 from the 3P line. I don't know about his maturity or work habits during practice. I do know he ignited the team a lot of times, when they needed it. Weird that a guy like that would be un-motivated in practice.

If the Spurs gave Malik too much money, that's their fault. But if you look at the numbers he put up, there is no denying that he brought a lot to the team. Nobody besides Duncan and Ginobili has drawn fouls and gotten to the line as consistently as he did - and that would be worth a ton to Duncan in the last few years. Nobody rebounded as well on a per-40 basis, and only the Big 3 have scored as well. And Pop beat the living shit out of Malik, regularly and publicly. Some people may get tougher, but some get beaten down.

Maybe the Spurs would have kept Rasho at a lower salary. I'm not so sure Rasho would have stayed, if the same money was offered somewhere else. I know a lot of people felt like Pop beat Rasho down, too.

[Kori Ellis]

I hate to disagree with you, but I do:

Maybe it's a question of cause-and-effect. Hedo sure as hell isn't passive in Orlando. And Beno doesn't appear to be out of shape, lazy, or hurt since he left SA.

Yeah that's what I said. Hedo is very good in Orlando. And Hedo wasn't beat down here. If anything, he was coddled. Pop treated him much differently than the players he "beats down." Most Spurs fans at the time thought Pop was TOO nice to Hedo.

Maybe Beno learned his lesson and cleaned up his act, but he was definitely lazy, out of shape and hurt here. I know in training camp with the Kings this year he said that he preferred Pop's training camp because it was more disciplined. So maybe he gets it now.




Hart isn't a first-tier PG, but he's not a bad guy to have on the bench either. When Brevin Knight went down in Charlotte, Hart was a damned good replacement. He averaged around 11 points and 6.5 assists, plus around 3.5 boards, as a starter. He started 20+ games for the Clippers and put up close to the same there. For a backup, that's solid. Jacque Vaughn's career season was around 6.5 points and 4 assists.


When JV started in NJ, he was decent too. But I don't get why you are comparing Hart's starting numbers to JV's total numbers. Compare Hart's total numbers - 5.1 points/2.4 assists.



Okay, Claxton has had a lot of injuries. Maybe the Spurs had a crystal ball? But when he's been healthy, he's been solid for other teams. I didn't say he was a top-5 PG... just solid.


When you miss 1/3 of the season every year, people start not to care if you are solid anymore.



Stephen Jackson played one year at a lower salary, and earned a big contract the next year. Isn't that what Mason did? And didn't Pop commend him for it? Financially, he made the right move, even over the 3-year term we offered him. In the long term, he did a lot better.

I agree. But that's not the Spurs fault. They offered him a 3-year deal, his agent didn't call them back, he went to the Hawks.



Derek Anderson laid it on the line for the Spurs, and delivered the goods. I know they were trying to sign Duncan, but they screwed up ignoring him. Period. He put up 15.5 ppg, 4.4 boards, 3.7 assists, and shot .399 from the 3P line. He got to the line 402 times, and I don't think we have ever run the fast break as well as we did that season. I didn't like the way he handled the break-up either, but I can understand him feeling slighted.


I don't have any issue with Derek Anderson. He was good here. Maybe RC handled his contract negotiations wrong - I don't know, I wasn't privvy to that. As a side note, he's 34 and out of the league.



Devin scored 611, 670, and 586 points in the 3 years after he left the Spurs, and continued to shoot around .400 from the 3P line. I don't know about his maturity or work habits during practice. I do know he ignited the team a lot of times, when they needed it. Weird that a guy like that would be un-motivated in practice.

Devin has never shot 40 percent from 3 in his career. Last year he shot 31, the year before 35 and the year before that 33. His highest year was as a Spur at over 37% from 3. This season, he's sub 17% so far.

He was extremely lazy here, including the day after he got signed for the rest of the season off his 10 day, he no show/no called to practice. He called an hour in and said he overslept. He was notorious for oversleeping and missing things. The Spurs also weren't thrilled that he seemed to care more about practicing golf than his basketball game.

After leaving San Antonio, he signed a 2 year deal with Utah - they opted not to have him back for the 2nd year. The next year, he had a hard time getting anybody to sign him - the Hornets gave him a deal into the season, I believe.

He was very good here when motivated. But whatever happened to Devin with the Spurs was result of a combination of back issues and bad practice habits.


If the Spurs gave Malik too much money, that's their fault. But if you look at the numbers he put up, there is no denying that he brought a lot to the team. Nobody besides Duncan and Ginobili has drawn fouls and gotten to the line as consistently as he did - and that would be worth a ton to Duncan in the last few years. Nobody rebounded as well on a per-40 basis, and only the Big 3 have scored as well. And Pop beat the living shit out of Malik, regularly and publicly. Some people may get tougher, but some get beaten down.


They overpaid Malik to keep him away from the Lakers and it was worth it at the time. Basketball is a business and they eventually had to get rid of that long-term contract. But Malik was great here and hasn't done shit since. That's my point.


Maybe the Spurs would have kept Rasho at a lower salary. I'm not so sure Rasho would have stayed, if the same money was offered somewhere else. I know a lot of people felt like Pop beat Rasho down, too.

I don't think anyone, including Rasho himself, would say Pop beat him down.

[ploto]

I don't think anyone, including Rasho himself, would say Pop beat him down.

Rasho was usually too busy beating himself down. He and Pop loved each other.

[sam1617]

With hindsight, I miss Rasho. We were VERY spoiled at the C position with David, then Rasho came in, and yeah, he was passive sometimes, and he was slow, but he was a solid C. I never realized how good he was, and how important he was till he left. It takes 3 guys to replace what he gave us during his non-doghouse years.

[mrspurs]

Excellent article. And anyone who argues your post is a wine drinker. We all know if you dont drink wine your chances of making the squad are limited. hahahaha. Bottom line is the Spurs FO lost touch with reality when they got lucky grabbing Manu and TP. They starting winning so many games. They lost touch. And thats a fact.

[wildbill2u]

Bottom line is that Pop is the coach and has a fantastic winning percentage and four championships to show for his system and seemingly systematic 'Dog House" list each year. Who he chooses to play and who he chooses to let go or trade seems to be working in the Big Picture.

You can make arguments for and against all the players we've let go or who were in Pop's doghouse. Of them all, I regret the loss of Hedo and Beno the most, based on their blossoming after leaving here. Who knows what the team might have done in the draft, free agency or trades if they had blossomed here instead of at their new teams.

I leave Jax off the list because he wasn't in the doghouse here, was a good role player on the team but he was the one who chose to go elsewhere in search of more minutes and more gold.

[Fabbs]

If the Spurs didn't have Mason, then Udoka would probably be able to get regular minutes and see what he can do. But the Spurs are really deep at the wings. Somebody has to be the odd man out, and Ime is just the one. If Finley falls off significantly, maybe Ime could work himself back in. But it's probably better to try to deal him for a big body or a pick.
Are you saying he could fall off even more?
In all your years of covering Spurs Kori, have you ever seen a Reverse Doghouse case greater then Finley?

[superbigtime]

Just curious, what coach is available right now, should be coaching instead of Popovich, whos considered one of the top 10 all time best basketball coaches......

Sean Elliott.

I consider Pop one of the top 10 luckiest all time basketball coaches. Hell, he'd tell you that.

[ploto]

With hindsight, I miss Rasho.

As soon as I change my tag line....

[superbigtime]

I would rather have Rasho than Kurt. Pop acted like getting this guy was so huge for the Spurs. Nice call, Pop and RC. It's worked out so well. Now we have this dude under contract for this year and the next. Good thing he's getting all that PT to up his trade value. Oh...wait, he got ZERO minutes against the Pistons. Oh well, I'm sure Pop knows what he's doing. :rolleyes

[mrspurs]

Sean Elliott.

I consider Pop one of the top 10 luckiest all time basketball coaches. Hell, he'd tell you that.

Well said. Have we seen Pop coach a team like Oklahoma? Very lucky indeed.

[mrspurs]

I would rather have Rasho than Kurt. Pop acted like getting this guy was so huge for the Spurs. Nice call, Pop and RC. It's worked out so well. Now we have this dude under contract for this year and the next. Good thing he's getting all that PT to up his trade value. Oh...wait, he got ZERO minutes against the Pistons. Oh well, I'm sure Pop knows what he's doing. :rolleyes

By far one of the most dumbest moves the FO has made. How anyone could see Kurt going anywhere but a sorry team and helping them is beyond me. The guy has been torched by all the younger bigs in the league. And we brought him here. And noone wants this guy. Bringing in Kurt basically said. We dont want the Championship this year. That was right after getting rid of Beno and bringing in Mighty Joke. Im telling yall. We are still suffering from some of the worst FO moves in the history of Pops stay. And our record shows it. And the way teams have been able to abuse us inside the paint is ridiculous. Not even in the 70s or 80s have teams had it so easy inside our paint. Its a dang shame we have alot of small greats and some sorry bigs. That mix doesnt go well. And we're living proof right now.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Spurs' system, under Greg Popovich, has produced the best winning percentage of any team in any major professional sport over the last decade. It's hard to argue with those numbers. There are a lot of players who would not fit well into the system, and are never considered for the team. But there are others who turn out not to be a good fit after they get here. That doesn't mean that they are bad players - just that they don't fit The System.

The idea behind a system is that it keeps working when you plug in new pieces. But sometimes it seems like the system must be incredibly hard to fit into. Not only have some seemingly-perfect players done poorly after coming here, the roster always seems to have a player or two who are actually worse for the experience. Whether it is being in Pop's infamous "doghouse", or just the misery of not fitting in and losing minutes, it seems to suck the life right out of them. Usually one of them is on the way out the door, and the next one already has a target on his chest.

Ime Udoka and Matt Bonner are currently at the top of the list. (But it's easy to see how the next generation could include Roger Mason and/or George Hill.) When Bonner came to the Spurs, he brought instant energy to games - digging for rebounds and loose balls, hitting a couple of shots when the team was in a scoring funk, or putting some "body english" on one of the opposing players. (Sound like any other former-Spurs?) Ime Udoka was the heir apparent to Bruce Bowen - an agile player who could defend well and hit 3-pointers from the corner. An article about Ime described him playing ball in Africa, and rescuing a teammate from an after-game brawl by kicking ass "like a ninja". After their first seasons they both looked like great additions to the team, and the fans were riding the bandwagon in their favor.

So what happens to players between Year 1 and Year 2? Did those guys really get worse, rather than better? They've definitely had some bad performances in games. But then again, both of them have looked hesitant, and that's no way to shoot a basketball - or defend for that matter. That look reminds me a lot of some other Spurs "under-achievers" in the past.

A Lot Better Than Spurs Gave Them Credit For: Hedo Turkoglu & Beno Udrih

"Hustle" Players Who Didn't Fit The Mold: Malik Rose & Devin Brown (Matt Bonner?)

Looked Solid Everywhere Else: Antonio Daniels, Speedy Claxton, Jason Hart

Second Big... Second Year... Second Class: Rasho, Nazr, Francisco (Kurt Thomas?)

Under-appreciated And Un-Signed: Stephen Jackson & Derek Anderson

Where Careers Go To Die: Steve Smith (Michael Finley?)



I know this thread is to bash Pop, but why not consider the successes that Pop has had with his players?

Manu and Tony were not sure things coming here. Manu was great internationally, but had to grow into the NBA game. If you remember his first year with the Spurs he was anything but stellar. That magical year two that you mention is where is career took off. Drafting Tony Parker was a brilliant move because he was not nearly as proven in Europe as Manu, and did all of his maturing while in the NBA. Unlike Beno, Tony never crawled up into the fetal position in response to Pop's coaching style. Tony credits a great deal of his success to Pop's coaching of him in those first couple of years.

Bruce Bowen went from good to great while on this team. Malik had his best years here. I think the same could be said for Antonio Daniels. Mason appears to be fitting right in, as does George Hill.

Finley has been given every opportunity in this system, and won an NBA ring here as a starter.

As for some of the others you mention, Steve Smith's career was already dead when he showed up. It's hard to play guard in the NBA when your knees are gone. Derek Anderson wanted more money than David Robinson. DA proved to be a bust as his career went on. If the Spurs had locked $10 million a year into the contract he wanted we could have kissed those NBA titles goodbye.

Nazr did nothing after leaving San Antonio, nor did Malik. If anything you should have made a post about how Pop made the most of their limited talents. Francisco was a 3rd stringer before he got here, and now he's out of the league. You'll have to remind me who Speedy Claxton and Jason Hart are because I haven't seen them do anything since they left the Spurs.

Beno is putting up decent stats on a crappy Sacramento team...until he leads a winner his performance there tells me nothing.

The only two people on your list that appear to have done a little better after leaving the Spurs are Hedo and Rasho, but they had to find systems they fit into...it wasn't like they are superstars that were being held back.

Anyway, Pop bashing threads are fun I guess, even if this one doesn't have a lot of merit to it.

[ata]

Are you saying he could fall off even more?
In all your years of covering Spurs Kori, have you ever seen a Reverse Doghouse case greater then Finley?

Nick Van Bust ?

Pop: nobody is not perfect, not even Pop. Under the line 4 championship. His biggest mistake: NVE. He could managed some player better, played less small ball while he had chance etc. however under the line, there is a big +

Rasho: still best C at Spurs after DRob. Maybe could Pop utilized him better. I am still hoping that there is chance for reunion of my favourite NBA team with my favourite slovenian BB player next season.

[ata]

Sean Elliott.

I consider Pop one of the top 10 luckiest all time basketball coaches. Hell, he'd tell you that.
That is true - but to Pop's credit, he took full advantage of it.

[objective]

general responses :

1. Beno actually has had several minor injuries and other problems with the Kings, but because it's only news in Sacramento most people don't get it on their radar.

2. Stephen Jackson wasn't in the doghouse as far as his contract goes with Pop, but he was severely lowballed and blaming his agent for being dumb doesn't change any of that. They offered Stephen Jackson, starting young SG who had hit multiple huge 4th quarter clutch threes in the series clinching game 6 of the WCF as well as the title clinching game 6 of the Finals . . . Matt Bonner money.

I still don't understand the excusing of the Spurs for that. Another comparison: Just 12 months later the Spurs signed Brent Barry to be a bench player . . . Brent Barry was already well over 30 and past his prime (7 years older than Jackson) . . . who had never done anything in the playoffs . . . and his offer from the Spurs was for more years and more money per year. I don't recall the exact numbers but it I think it was Jackson's 3/9 offer vs. Barry's 4/18 or 4/20 contract.

3. Rose's doghousing and general decline in performance didn't start with the new contract, it started later with Robert Horry being signed, after Malik had an outstanding 03 season and Horry was garbage with the Lakers. Horry was given a big chunk of Rose's minutes and it messed with both his game and his head.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

2. Stephen Jackson wasn't in the doghouse as far as his contract goes with Pop, but he was severely lowballed and blaming his agent for being dumb doesn't change any of that. They offered Stephen Jackson, starting young SG who had hit multiple huge 4th quarter clutch threes in the series clinching game 6 of the WCF as well as the title clinching game 6 of the Finals . . . Matt Bonner money.


They offered a black hole of a starting SG with a streaky outside shot and poor ball handling skills Matt Bonner money after he did well in one post season during a contract year. How many guys have gotten big contracts on the basis of one good showing in the postseason and then busted? How many GM's in the league shared the Spurs opinion of him?

Hindisght being 20/20 I would rather have had him than Hedo in 04, but not with a contract that would have made resigning Manu or Tony more difficult.

[The Truth #6]

A few random points:

Yes, Pop is lucky and has never been on a bad team for us to see what he could do, but so quickly we forget earlier this season when he helped motivate a team that had only one of the Big 3, a bunch of role players, and was going down the tubes FAST to an impressive string of games to get us back to .500.

I only wish Pop had beaten up Rasho. I think Mario Elie got tired of trying to make Rasho tougher with his dunking drills.

With all the doghouse talk how could we forget about Nazr? He sure did go in the doghouse fast after he didn't sign that extension in the Summer.

Stephen Jackson tried to come back and take the Spurs initial offer but the team had already decided they were going to pursue Hedo instead, so they could have got Jack back for that contract but decided not to.

Pop gave up on Beno before Beno gave up on everything. Beno's action was worse because he did it to himself, but looking back, it sure would have been nice not to have run down his trade value so much.

It's no wonder players don't want to come here unless it's for their first or last contract. Most player's value only go down when they come here, unless you're in the Big 3.

[ploto]

Rose's doghousing and general decline in performance didn't start with the new contract, it started later with Robert Horry being signed, after Malik had an outstanding 03 season and Horry was garbage with the Lakers. Horry was given a big chunk of Rose's minutes and it messed with both his game and his head.

When Dave retired, Malik somehow thought he would move up to #2 big man, but instead the Spurs signed both Rasho and Rob. Everyone knew how much Pop loved those 2 guys and Malik never seemed to recover form his mistaken assumption.

[ploto]

I only wish Pop had beaten up Rasho. I think Mario Elie got tired of trying to make Rasho tougher with his dunking drills.

With all the doghouse talk how could we forget about Nazr? He sure did go in the doghouse fast after he didn't sign that extension in the Summer.


Mario Elie never worked with Rasho and Nazr was given every chance to try to learn the offense and defense, but just could never get it.

[The Truth #6]

Mario Elie never worked with Rasho and Nazr was given every chance to try to learn the offense and defense, but just could never get it.

Really? So that article I read in the Express about Mario Elie working with Rasho after practice on dunking while letting out a yell, (a hilarious image) as a way to increase his aggression, was a fabrication? Were you at the practices?

Neither Nazr nor Rasho were perfect. If one could combine the best of both we would have had a good center. They both had flaws. They both did some things well. Which is another way of saying Rasho wasn't that much better than him. Why people would rally around Rasho is a mystery to me - it's either fellow countrymen or women who wanted to bone him.

But Nazr was in Pop's doghouse. He had just helped us win a title but decided not to sign the Spurs' contract extension offer that Summer. And his minutes went down after that. If Rasho was playing head and shoulders above him I would understand it, but he wasn't.

[GSH]

I know this thread is to bash Pop, but why not consider the successes that Pop has had with his players?

Anyway, Pop bashing threads are fun I guess, even if this one doesn't have a lot of merit to it.

My first comment was about the tremendous success that this organization has had, and I was 100% sincere. The nearest comparison I can think of for a small-market team is probably the Green Bay Packers. I guess you and I differ because I don't think that criticism always equates to bashing.

My observation is that some guys appear to thrive under Pop, and some get beaten down. They lose self confidence, and their performance declines while they are here, instead of improving. Some recover elsewhere, some... not so much.

Maybe the guys who are stars in the league, or used to be, have enough confidence to deal with the Doghouse, and not get discouraged. And maybe it's the second-tier guys who lose confidence in themselves, and begin to perform worse after they get here. That might not be correct, but it sort of fits the circumstances. The Big 3 are safe. The Finleys, Horrys, Kerrs, etc. can handle it because they know they belong.

All I know is that I've seen a consistent stream of guys who get a "deer-in-the-headlights" look after they have been here a while, and start looking hesitant on both ends of the floor. (The best current example is probably Ime. You can't tell me he doesn't look beaten down.) Maybe none of them were any good to begin with. But it seems to me that players would gain confidence after playing in a system for a season, and play looser rather than more hesitant.

We'll have to agree to disagree about how good Derek Anderson was, and could have been on the Spurs team. (That particular Portland team was probably the worst place he could have gone.) But Stephen Jackson sure as hell performed well after he left here. I think Roger Mason has shown signs of being another potentially good player who could go the same route as those two.

One point I think you are dead wrong on - in the 3-4 seasons after he left here, Jason Hart was a damned competent backup PG. He didn't get his teams into trouble, and when he was called on to fill in as a starter he did a very respectable job. His numbers show it, but I also followed him a bit. I would have much rather had him than NVE or Vaughn. His time here may have helped him get the next contract, but I don't think it did him any favors as a player.

Some people actually respond to praise, and Pop rarely ever compliments players. When he does, it's often sort of back-handed, or mixed with some criticism. Maybe he gives a lot of positive feedback where we can't see it. But from the outside, it looks like his second-tier guys suffer from the approach. If that's bashing, I guess that must be what I'm doing. It wasn't intended to be. Maybe I'm too much like Pop in that one tiny regard.

[objective]

They offered a black hole of a starting SG with a streaky outside shot and poor ball handling skills Matt Bonner money after he did well in one post season during a contract year. How many guys have gotten big contracts on the basis of one good showing in the postseason and then busted? How many GM's in the league shared the Spurs opinion of him?

Hindisght being 20/20 I would rather have had him than Hedo in 04, but not with a contract that would have made resigning Manu or Tony more difficult.

1. Him being streaky in a contract year? Matt Bonner in his contract year was out of the rotation and a fringe active roster player and got offered the same contract. Trying to justify the contract offered to Jackson this way is illogical.

2. Furthermore, say Jackson had been signed to the same contract or slightly less than Barry (still more than he was offered), the effect on re-signing Ginobili or Parker would have been . . . absolutely nothing!

Please do not forget that Manu was re-signed to his current deal and Brent Barry signed to his contract (a bit larger than offered to Jackson) the same day. There would have zero problem with giving Manu the same exact contract he has now if Jackson was getting paid Barry money.

[Fabbs]

Nick Van Bust ?

Pop: nobody is not perfect, not even Pop. Under the line 4 championship. His biggest mistake: NVE. He could managed some player better, played less small ball while he had chance etc. however under the line, there is a big +

Yeah, but I don't remember VanX extorting 35 minutes a game* on a regular basis all while sucking in every facet of the game. 15 minutes here and there, yes.

*premptive strike for the Fin n Pop Sniffers Club, I'm talking about the many -majority- of games Finley has sucked. Not the good ones he had in the 2007 playoffs. For those i am grateful. Still, thats once in three years for an asstard who keeps getting mistakenly labeled as a clubhouse leader at 20 million per year. As if Duncan, GNob, Parker et all had less leadership than never-had-won-a-championship Finley.

[ploto]

Really? So that article I read in the Express about Mario Elie working with Rasho after practice on dunking while letting out a yell, (a hilarious image) as a way to increase his aggression, was a fabrication?

Sorry, but your memory fails you. PJ worked with Rasho on rebounding and dunking using an apparatus you attach to the basket. Brett Brown- as the development coach- worked with Rasho on his post moves, shooting, and all sorts of weird drills where he picked balls off the floor repeatedly and dunked them and where he ran from side to side of the lane blocking imaginary shots. Mario Elie worked with Devin Brown.

[timvp]

Sorry, but your memory fails you. PJ worked with Rasho on rebounding and dunking using an apparatus you attach to the basket. Brett Brown- as the development coach- worked with Rasho on his post moves, shooting, and all sorts of weird drills where he picked balls off the floor repeatedly and dunked them and where he ran from side to side of the lane blocking imaginary shots. Mario Elie worked with Devin Brown.Actually, The Truth #6 is right. Mario Elie worked with Rasho, specifically regarding dunking the ball. But the coach who worked with Rasho the most was Don Newman. Newman used his football drills to try to "toughen up" Rasho.

PJ rarely was a part of player development and Brett Brown works with everyone. Elie and Newman were at different points both specifically designated to Rasho's development.

[ploto]

Actually, The Truth #6 is right. Mario Elie worked with Rasho, specifically regarding dunking the ball. But the coach who worked with Rasho the most was Don Newman. Newman used his football drills to try to "toughen up" Rasho.

PJ rarely was a part of player development and Brett Brown works with everyone. Elie and Newman were at different points both specifically designated to Rasho's development.

Newmann did that Rasho's second year with the Spurs, but I was talking about the first one. PJ was the guy who specifically worked with Rasho and Hedo on rebounding that year.

[wildbill2u]

Rasho was simply too passive on offense. When Tim was doubled, he rarely left his position at the top of the key for an easy pass from Tim for a layup.

And his opportunities for the short fifteen foot shot from the ft line were usually passed up. He was obviously deferring to the shooters--as does Oberto--but that can be a bad strategy when used so often that the other team takes advantage of it.

[timvp]

Newmann did that Rasho's second year with the Spurs, but I was talking about the first one. PJ was the guy who specifically worked with Rasho and Hedo on rebounding that year.Elie worked with Rasho on dunking the ball. I saw it live, there was video about it on the news and there was an article in the Express-News about it. Not sure how you can tell The Truth #6 he was wrong when he was dead right.

Elie worked the most with Rasho and Devin. But mostly with Rasho considering that Elie and Devin never really got along because Devin was always late for their individual sessions.

[T Park]

Elie worked with Rasho on dunking the ball. I saw it live, there was video about it on the news and there was an article in the Express-News about it. Not sure how you can tell The Truth #6 he was wrong when he was dead right.Elie worked the most with Rasho and Devin. But mostly with Rasho considering that Elie and Devin never really got along because Devin was always late for their individual sessions.


The same way she crawdads out of bets shes lost and won't pay up on.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

1. Him being streaky in a contract year? Matt Bonner in his contract year was out of the rotation and a fringe active roster player and got offered the same contract. Trying to justify the contract offered to Jackson this way is illogical.

2. Furthermore, say Jackson had been signed to the same contract or slightly less than Barry (still more than he was offered), the effect on re-signing Ginobili or Parker would have been . . . absolutely nothing!

Please do not forget that Manu was re-signed to his current deal and Brent Barry signed to his contract (a bit larger than offered to Jackson) the same day. There would have zero problem with giving Manu the same exact contract he has now if Jackson was getting paid Barry money.

Oh, didn't see this one. Thanks for mangling my words and ignoring the salient points. I wasn't trying to justify anything by comparing Jackson to Bonner. I pointed out that 3 years/ $9 mil is a pretty reasonable for a guard with some definite flaws in his game and only one good postseason on his resume. Especially in the wake of Jaren Jackson's failure (whose game and achievements in '99 were on par with Jax's in 03) and especially if the Spurs were keeping an eye on the horizon with regards to the potential Manu showed them in 03 as well. Bottom line for any free agent is that the market dictates your worth. Where were all the other teams waiting to swoop in and capitalize on the cheap Spurs "lowball" offer and lock Jax up long term? I'm sure there were other contenders with at least the MLE who were kicking down his door to give him what the Spurs wouldn't.

As for the impact on resigning Manu, it becomes a what if game. Make no mistake the priority in the '04 offseason was to sign Manu, see what they could get with the rest. If the Spurs go to the negotiating table with a few less million to offer and another SG who still has multiple seasons left on his contract, who knows what happens? Well, I guess Manu could still have signed with the Spurs, or he could have shown the sort of professionalism and commitment to winning that Jax did...

[HarlemHeat37]

man, these Pop haters annoy me..

why did the GM's name him the best coach in the NBA? because he CLEARLY is..you go to ANY fanbase's forums, you'll find most of their fans are jealous that we have Popovich..it seems like only some of our fans don't appreciate him..

there's nobody in the NBA that has the same combination as Pop..nobody combines the skill of x's and o's, with motivational tactics, and most importantly, in-game adjustments..

look at these examples..I can give you a number of examples with other teams..

Rasho? he has a title with us..we won despite him..Rasho has clearly improved his game over the years, he just wasn't as good with us..his numbers are higher because he's getting the ball a lot more in Toronto and in Indiana..his usage % kills any of the %'s he had during his Spur days..

Beno? just soft..Beno will never be a guy that puts up good numbers on a good team..he's a guy that will put up empty numbers, because he plays for a bad team..he's way too soft to be a starter on a championship team..

Turkoglu is the same as Rasho..he has a much bigger role on Orlando, and he simply wasn't as good with us..it's called improvement..

Matt Bonner has clearly responded to the Dog House this season..I've seen no indication that Hill is shook, and especially not from Mason..

stop naming these soft players that we let go of..Jackson is the only one I would love having on this team, but it was a money issue..Jackson was solid in his time here..

[mrose31]

I think a lot of what it boils down to is Defense. If you don't play defense Pop is just not going to play you. No matter how good your offense. That is why Vaughn plays and Beno did not. I knew that as soon as Beno left he would do really well if he had played for an offensive type team like Suns, Warriors, or Kings. Hedo is pretty much same thing a really good shooter but not very defensive type player. That is why a lot of point guards who are pretty good offensive players but not good defense players did not play well or much for Van Exel, Carter, Damon. Rose and Rasho were actually good for spurs but slightly overpaid and we shipped them of at any chance we were given.

[objective]

Oh, didn't see this one. Thanks for mangling my words and ignoring the salient points. I wasn't trying to justify anything by comparing Jackson to Bonner. I pointed out that 3 years/ $9 mil is a pretty reasonable for a guard with some definite flaws in his game and only one good postseason on his resume. Especially in the wake of Jaren Jackson's failure (whose game and achievements in '99 were on par with Jax's in 03) and especially if the Spurs were keeping an eye on the horizon with regards to the potential Manu showed them in 03 as well. Bottom line for any free agent is that the market dictates your worth. Where were all the other teams waiting to swoop in and capitalize on the cheap Spurs "lowball" offer and lock Jax up long term? I'm sure there were other contenders with at least the MLE who were kicking down his door to give him what the Spurs wouldn't.

As for the impact on resigning Manu, it becomes a what if game. Make no mistake the priority in the '04 offseason was to sign Manu, see what they could get with the rest. If the Spurs go to the negotiating table with a few less million to offer and another SG who still has multiple seasons left on his contract, who knows what happens? Well, I guess Manu could still have signed with the Spurs, or he could have shown the sort of professionalism and commitment to winning that Jax did...

That seems a poor comparison to Jaren Jackson. Jaren Jackson was going to be 32 when the 99-00 season started, Stephen Jackson was going to be 25 at the start of the 03-04 season. Jaren's playoff scoring was 2/3rds that of Stephen Jackson. Stephen Jackson was much younger, bigger and could do more. And Stephen Jackson was a starter, Jaren was a back-up.

Speaking of market forces, what exactly were the market pressures that forced the Spurs to pay Bonner 3/9? That's right, there weren't any. No other bidders driving the Spurs to give 3/9 to a player who wasn't had zero impact on the 07 title. Again, there is no excusing the Spurs for underbidding on Jackson even though his agent was a jerk and their's was the highest offer among no offers.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

That seems a poor comparison to Jaren Jackson. Jaren Jackson was going to be 32 when the 99-00 season started, Stephen Jackson was going to be 25 at the start of the 03-04 season. Jaren's playoff scoring was 2/3rds that of Stephen Jackson. Stephen Jackson was much younger, bigger and could do more. And Stephen Jackson was a starter, Jaren was a back-up.
There's some valid points there that make the contract they gave JJ look even dumber, but it doesn't change the very real deficiencies in Jax's game and that the Spurs were making this decision on the basis of one contract year performance. Some of the worst contracts get given out under those circumstances. 3/9 was reasonable for a player with Jax's skill set. Especially from a small market team that had it's eye on Jason Kidd and had another SG guard that had shown some very intriguing potential.


Speaking of market forces, what exactly were the market pressures that forced the Spurs to pay Bonner 3/9? That's right, there weren't any. No other bidders driving the Spurs to give 3/9 to a player who wasn't had zero impact on the 07 title.

:bangWho in this thread is defending the Bonner contract? You keep bringing it up like the Spurs traded Jackson to open up a roster spot for Bonner. At the time he was not playing like a $3 million dollar man. BONNER'S CONTRACT WASN'T A GREAT MOVE. Happy?


Again, there is no excusing the Spurs for underbidding on Jackson even though his agent was a jerk and their's was the highest offer among no offers.
How do you underbid when no one else is pushing up the price? You say that the Bonner contract stinks for them giving him money when no one else wanted Bonner that at that price, but then shit on the Spurs for not doing precisely that for Jackson? They knew what Jax was worth to them and to every other team in the league. Jax and his agent didn't. Whose fuck up is that?

[objective]

Bonner is being brought up in the context of what how performance plays a role in contract offers. Very easy. It illustrates poor or at least decision making from the Spurs because you have one player who performed very well and another player who did nothing yet both got the same offer, more than other teams offered either.


They knew what Jax was worth to them and to every other team in the league. Jax and his agent didn't. Whose fuck up is that?

I don't care if Jax's agent fucked up and screwed him over (though in the long run Jackson has in fact made more money than he would have if he accepted the Spurs offer, so it's hard to to say Jackson or his agent were stupid in the longterm when it comes to money). I care about the moves the Spurs make with regards to their roster and how it helps their chances to win a title in any given year.

In that regard, it is the Spurs' fuck-up. The moves they make and the contracts they offer are their responsibility. And they fuck-up sometimes. Every team does. Nothing wrong with admitting it.

--------------

Regardless, these contract matters have nothing to do overall with any doghouse so it's just pro-longing the thread.

However, there is something to be said about Jackson being doghoused the whole first season while Smith and Porter were stumbling all over themselves. And it should be noted that Jackson was well on his way to again being doghoused in 02-03, it wasn't until injuries to both Smith and Manu happened that forced Pop to play Jackson. No injuries to Smith = who knows.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Rasho plays much better as a #1 option when it comes to the bigman rotation. If anything, his inability to play with TD where he was a secondary man on the floor hurt him much more than simply "bad coaching".

And Stephen Jackson wanted too much money initially, and by the time he tried to go back to SA, they had already used up their cap space. If you look at his 1 year deal with Atlanta for the 2003-2004 season, it wasn't exactly big money when compared to what he was hoping to get.

Agree and disagree.

Rasho plays well as the primary big, but in a complimentary role he sucks... which is why he didn't hang here in SA. When Duncan went down that one season and Rasho was our low post presence, he was averaging a double double.

Disagree on Buckets. The Spurs low balled his ass, and it was a multi-year low ball offer. If they would have given him a one year offer with the idea of a longer term deal the year after, he'd still be here.

But they wanted him to take a sweetheart Bruce Bowen-esque deal when he was just entering the prime of his career. It was cheap, and the Spurs deserved to be called out for it.