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It's also known as BAD COACHING. Rasho is excelling in Indiana...averaging over 3 apg even! Pop somehow beats confidence out of all but the most resolute players (Tony, Manu, Brent). Even Tim looks so hesitant these days.
The Spurs' system, under Greg Popovich, has produced the best winning percentage of any team in any major professional sport over the last decade. It's hard to argue with those numbers. There are a lot of players who would not fit well into the system, and are never considered for the team. But there are others who turn out not to be a good fit after they get here. That doesn't mean that they are bad players - just that they don't fit The System.
The idea behind a system is that it keeps working when you plug in new pieces. But sometimes it seems like the system must be incredibly hard to fit into. Not only have some seemingly-perfect players done poorly after coming here, the roster always seems to have a player or two who are actually worse for the experience. Whether it is being in Pop's infamous "doghouse", or just the misery of not fitting in and losing minutes, it seems to suck the life right out of them. Usually one of them is on the way out the door, and the next one already has a target on his chest.
Ime Udoka and Matt Bonner are currently at the top of the list. (But it's easy to see how the next generation could include Roger Mason and/or George Hill.) When Bonner came to the Spurs, he brought instant energy to games - digging for rebounds and loose balls, hitting a couple of shots when the team was in a scoring funk, or putting some "body english" on one of the opposing players. (Sound like any other former-Spurs?) Ime Udoka was the heir apparent to Bruce Bowen - an agile player who could defend well and hit 3-pointers from the corner. An article about Ime described him playing ball in Africa, and rescuing a teammate from an after-game brawl by kicking ass "like a ninja". After their first seasons they both looked like great additions to the team, and the fans were riding the bandwagon in their favor.
So what happens to players between Year 1 and Year 2? Did those guys really get worse, rather than better? They've definitely had some bad performances in games. But then again, both of them have looked hesitant, and that's no way to shoot a basketball - or defend for that matter. That look reminds me a lot of some other Spurs "under-achievers" in the past.
A Lot Better Than Spurs Gave Them Credit For: Hedo Turkoglu & Beno Udrih
"Hustle" Players Who Didn't Fit The Mold: Malik Rose & Devin Brown (Matt Bonner?)
Looked Solid Everywhere Else: Antonio Daniels, Speedy Claxton, Jason Hart
Second Big... Second Year... Second Class: Rasho, Nazr, Francisco (Kurt Thomas?)
Under-appreciated And Un-Signed: Stephen Jackson & Derek Anderson
Where Careers Go To Die: Steve Smith (Michael Finley?)
Sometimes players lose minutes because they don't perform. But some players also lose confidence, and don't perform, because they lose minutes. Ime and Bonner already look like casualties, but Mason and Hill didn't look like the same players in the last game, either. Too often, that's the first step on the road to The Doghouse.
It's also known as BAD COACHING. Rasho is excelling in Indiana...averaging over 3 apg even! Pop somehow beats confidence out of all but the most resolute players (Tony, Manu, Brent). Even Tim looks so hesitant these days.
Rasho plays much better as a #1 option when it comes to the bigman rotation. If anything, his inability to play with TD where he was a secondary man on the floor hurt him much more than simply "bad coaching".
And Stephen Jackson wanted too much money initially, and by the time he tried to go back to SA, they had already used up their cap space. If you look at his 1 year deal with Atlanta for the 2003-2004 season, it wasn't exactly big money when compared to what he was hoping to get.
hedo and malik wasnt worth their contract when we signed them
rasho was overpaid, but thats the price for a big man during the time we signed him
steph was fukn lowballed for no reason, he was at least worth the money hedo, malik was getting per season......this costs us a 3peat or even 4rings in a row.
So are you telling me that these players that didn't work out one way or another were coached well when they were with the Spurs? I know Beno is now the starting PG for the kings but even when he was the Bibby backup, how was Reggie freaking Theus getting more out of him than the Spurs were. Why does Turkoglu light fire to everyone's pants in Orlando but had confidence issues as a Spur? Why does Kurt Thomas suck? Maybe he's not quite in game shape, but the dude got zero minutes the other night. Zero. Pop doesn't need to make men out of boys, but that seems to be his MO alot of the time. And alot of players do not respond to that very well. I think Pop's skill as a motivator does not work with every one and for those who it doesn't, it becomes a vicious cycle that keeps them in the doghouse.
Hedo and Beno are good where they are, but they didn't flourish here. Not every player works everywhere. Hedo's passive play in the postseason put the nail in his San Antonio coffin, but he's good. Beno - he was given plenty of chances in San Antonio and was often out of shape, lazy or hurt.
Malik played EIGHT years in San Antonio - I don't know why he's on this list. If he didn't have a fat contract, despite his antics sometimes, he would still be here. He was very loved in the organization.
Devin was late to practice with regularity and very immature here. He had trouble even getting a contract in recent years after being with the Spurs.
Speedy and Jason Hart have looked solid elsewhere? Speedy is a china doll who averages about 50 games a season. He was overhyped as a Spur after 2-3 good games. He isn't all that.
Jason Hart averaged 2 points and shot around 30 percent last season.
Rasho was solid here and very appreciated by the coaching staff and his teammates - just not by Spurs fans. If he made less money, he'd probably still be here.
Stephen Jackson wasn't signed because his agent is an ass. Spurs couldn't force him to take their offer.
I'm not sure Ime Udoka was ever the heir apparent to Bruce Bowen except in the fantasies of Spurs fans. He's shorter and slower. He would be a fine 3rd/4th swingman in another organization, but he's just the odd man out here because all the other wings are better than him.
i say we work his ass off then trade him back to the blazers for batum or some ...he has to be worth something....
If the Spurs didn't have Mason, then Udoka would probably be able to get regular minutes and see what he can do. But the Spurs are really deep at the wings. Somebody has to be the odd man out, and Ime is just the one. If Finley falls off significantly, maybe Ime could work himself back in. But it's probably better to try to deal him for a big body or a pick.
Just curious, what coach is available right now, should be coaching instead of Popovich, whos considered one of the top 10 all time best basketball coaches......
PJ carlisemo knows the system, he could replace POP....then maybe he can ride duncans coat tails for a few season to bump up his coaching record b4 he bolts to another team
PJ Carlisimo is the Speedy Claxton of Spurs coaching.
SAM MITC !
Do you think, that there is chance for Rasho to play in SA next season (for reasonable money)?
Spot on. One of the better posts I have read.
I've wondered why some players get treated with kid gloves. NVE for example...there seemed to be no limit to the number of ty performances NVE was granted by Pop.
If you look at how Hedo performed here, he may have been overpaid. But if you look at his performance in Orlando he was (and still is) a bargain. Besides... you aren't suggesting he played worse here because he was overpaid?
We paid too much for Malik, but that's not his fault. It's also totally beside the point. In 2002, the year after he signed that contract, he had the best all-around season of any Spur not named Duncan, Parker, or Ginobili, since the David Robinson era - and he still got into Pop's doghouse. That year, Malik scored 822 points, had 506 rebounds, and went to the line 306 times. (He also dished out 124 assists, for good measure.) Since 2002, the only Spurs other than the Big 3 to better any of those numbers were:
Points - Stephen Jackson (946 points in '02) and Finley (826 points in '07)
Rebounds - Nazr (586 in '04) and Rasho (633 in '03)
FTA - Nobody. Next closest was Nazr (227 in '04)
A couple of people (other than the Big 3) out-scored him for a single season. A couple out-rebounded him for a single season. But nobody else put it all together in a single season the way he did that year. But that wasn't enough to keep him out of the doghouse.
The next season, Malik's minutes dropped by 35%. And all of his numbers dropped by.... yep, almost exactly 35%. While he was on the floor, he put up numbers at almost exactly the same pace as the year before - but he got deeper, and deeper into Pop's doghouse.
I know the stats don't tell the whole story, but you can't totally ignore them either. Like the fact that in the last decade, nobody other than Duncan and Ginobili got to the free throw line as much, or as consistently as Malik. (Including Parker) And nobody other than Duncan pulled down as many rebounds, on a Per-40 basis. If Duncan had that kind of help against the Mavs a few years ago, we would probably have another trophy.
I don't think it's even a chicken-or-egg proposition. Malik started looking worse because Pop was beating the crap out of him all the time, and not the other way around. Because, like it or not, if he was playing that badly, his numbers would have shown it at least a little - but they didn't.
Tony Parker responded well to Pop beating the out of him. But just because it works sometimes doesn't mean it's necessary. It sure as didn't help Malik or Hedo Turkoglu. And he beat the life out of Beno and Rasho. Ime and Bonner aren't the same players they were when they arrived. I can see the same thing possibly happening to Hill, and Mason just deciding that he doesn't want to be here. For that matter, I think it had more than a little influence on Splitter deciding to stay in Europe.
I hate to disagree with you, but I do:
Maybe it's a question of cause-and-effect. Hedo sure as isn't passive in Orlando. And Beno doesn't appear to be out of shape, lazy, or hurt since he left SA.
Hart isn't a first-tier PG, but he's not a bad guy to have on the bench either. When Brevin Knight went down in Charlotte, Hart was a damned good replacement. He averaged around 11 points and 6.5 assists, plus around 3.5 boards, as a starter. He started 20+ games for the Clippers and put up close to the same there. For a backup, that's solid. Jacque Vaughn's career season was around 6.5 points and 4 assists.
Okay, Claxton has had a lot of injuries. Maybe the Spurs had a crystal ball? But when he's been healthy, he's been solid for other teams. I didn't say he was a top-5 PG... just solid.
Stephen Jackson played one year at a lower salary, and earned a big contract the next year. Isn't that what Mason did? And didn't Pop commend him for it? Financially, he made the right move, even over the 3-year term we offered him. In the long term, he did a lot better.
Derek Anderson laid it on the line for the Spurs, and delivered the goods. I know they were trying to sign Duncan, but they screwed up ignoring him. Period. He put up 15.5 ppg, 4.4 boards, 3.7 assists, and shot .399 from the 3P line. He got to the line 402 times, and I don't think we have ever run the fast break as well as we did that season. I didn't like the way he handled the break-up either, but I can understand him feeling slighted.
Devin scored 611, 670, and 586 points in the 3 years after he left the Spurs, and continued to shoot around .400 from the 3P line. I don't know about his maturity or work habits during practice. I do know he ignited the team a lot of times, when they needed it. Weird that a guy like that would be un-motivated in practice.
If the Spurs gave Malik too much money, that's their fault. But if you look at the numbers he put up, there is no denying that he brought a lot to the team. Nobody besides Duncan and Ginobili has drawn fouls and gotten to the line as consistently as he did - and that would be worth a ton to Duncan in the last few years. Nobody rebounded as well on a per-40 basis, and only the Big 3 have scored as well. And Pop beat the living out of Malik, regularly and publicly. Some people may get tougher, but some get beaten down.
Maybe the Spurs would have kept Rasho at a lower salary. I'm not so sure Rasho would have stayed, if the same money was offered somewhere else. I know a lot of people felt like Pop beat Rasho down, too.
Yeah that's what I said. Hedo is very good in Orlando. And Hedo wasn't beat down here. If anything, he was coddled. Pop treated him much differently than the players he "beats down." Most Spurs fans at the time thought Pop was TOO nice to Hedo.
Maybe Beno learned his lesson and cleaned up his act, but he was definitely lazy, out of shape and hurt here. I know in training camp with the Kings this year he said that he preferred Pop's training camp because it was more disciplined. So maybe he gets it now.
When JV started in NJ, he was decent too. But I don't get why you are comparing Hart's starting numbers to JV's total numbers. Compare Hart's total numbers - 5.1 points/2.4 assists.
Hart isn't a first-tier PG, but he's not a bad guy to have on the bench either. When Brevin Knight went down in Charlotte, Hart was a damned good replacement. He averaged around 11 points and 6.5 assists, plus around 3.5 boards, as a starter. He started 20+ games for the Clippers and put up close to the same there. For a backup, that's solid. Jacque Vaughn's career season was around 6.5 points and 4 assists.
When you miss 1/3 of the season every year, people start not to care if you are solid anymore.Okay, Claxton has had a lot of injuries. Maybe the Spurs had a crystal ball? But when he's been healthy, he's been solid for other teams. I didn't say he was a top-5 PG... just solid.
I agree. But that's not the Spurs fault. They offered him a 3-year deal, his agent didn't call them back, he went to the Hawks.Stephen Jackson played one year at a lower salary, and earned a big contract the next year. Isn't that what Mason did? And didn't Pop commend him for it? Financially, he made the right move, even over the 3-year term we offered him. In the long term, he did a lot better.
I don't have any issue with Derek Anderson. He was good here. Maybe RC handled his contract negotiations wrong - I don't know, I wasn't privvy to that. As a side note, he's 34 and out of the league.Derek Anderson laid it on the line for the Spurs, and delivered the goods. I know they were trying to sign Duncan, but they screwed up ignoring him. Period. He put up 15.5 ppg, 4.4 boards, 3.7 assists, and shot .399 from the 3P line. He got to the line 402 times, and I don't think we have ever run the fast break as well as we did that season. I didn't like the way he handled the break-up either, but I can understand him feeling slighted.
Devin has never shot 40 percent from 3 in his career. Last year he shot 31, the year before 35 and the year before that 33. His highest year was as a Spur at over 37% from 3. This season, he's sub 17% so far.Devin scored 611, 670, and 586 points in the 3 years after he left the Spurs, and continued to shoot around .400 from the 3P line. I don't know about his maturity or work habits during practice. I do know he ignited the team a lot of times, when they needed it. Weird that a guy like that would be un-motivated in practice.
He was extremely lazy here, including the day after he got signed for the rest of the season off his 10 day, he no show/no called to practice. He called an hour in and said he overslept. He was notorious for oversleeping and missing things. The Spurs also weren't thrilled that he seemed to care more about practicing golf than his basketball game.
After leaving San Antonio, he signed a 2 year deal with Utah - they opted not to have him back for the 2nd year. The next year, he had a hard time getting anybody to sign him - the Hornets gave him a deal into the season, I believe.
He was very good here when motivated. But whatever happened to Devin with the Spurs was result of a combination of back issues and bad practice habits.
They overpaid Malik to keep him away from the Lakers and it was worth it at the time. Basketball is a business and they eventually had to get rid of that long-term contract. But Malik was great here and hasn't done since. That's my point.If the Spurs gave Malik too much money, that's their fault. But if you look at the numbers he put up, there is no denying that he brought a lot to the team. Nobody besides Duncan and Ginobili has drawn fouls and gotten to the line as consistently as he did - and that would be worth a ton to Duncan in the last few years. Nobody rebounded as well on a per-40 basis, and only the Big 3 have scored as well. And Pop beat the living out of Malik, regularly and publicly. Some people may get tougher, but some get beaten down.
I don't think anyone, including Rasho himself, would say Pop beat him down.Maybe the Spurs would have kept Rasho at a lower salary. I'm not so sure Rasho would have stayed, if the same money was offered somewhere else. I know a lot of people felt like Pop beat Rasho down, too.
Rasho was usually too busy beating himself down. He and Pop loved each other.
With hindsight, I miss Rasho. We were VERY spoiled at the C position with David, then Rasho came in, and yeah, he was passive sometimes, and he was slow, but he was a solid C. I never realized how good he was, and how important he was till he left. It takes 3 guys to replace what he gave us during his non-doghouse years.
Excellent article. And anyone who argues your post is a wine drinker. We all know if you dont drink wine your chances of making the squad are limited. hahahaha. Bottom line is the Spurs FO lost touch with reality when they got lucky grabbing Manu and TP. They starting winning so many games. They lost touch. And thats a fact.
Bottom line is that Pop is the coach and has a fantastic winning percentage and four championships to show for his system and seemingly systematic 'Dog House" list each year. Who he chooses to play and who he chooses to let go or trade seems to be working in the Big Picture.
You can make arguments for and against all the players we've let go or who were in Pop's doghouse. Of them all, I regret the loss of Hedo and Beno the most, based on their blossoming after leaving here. Who knows what the team might have done in the draft, free agency or trades if they had blossomed here instead of at their new teams.
I leave Jax off the list because he wasn't in the doghouse here, was a good role player on the team but he was the one who chose to go elsewhere in search of more minutes and more gold.
Are you saying he could fall off even more?
In all your years of covering Spurs Kori, have you ever seen a Reverse Doghouse case greater then Finley?
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