Israel wiping the floor with Palestine

[Brutalis]

Why can't we let them blow each other up then when there's nothing left we go in there and take all their shit too? It's the American way come on!

[Extra Stout]

Yeah sure stupid ass. And the Israelis aren't racist at all right? Go to Hell.
You were born about 70 years too late for your true calling. And in the wrong country.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You were born about 70 years too late for your true calling. And in the wrong country.

:lol

[Winehole23]

If anybody cares, a pretty good discussion of ongoing hostilities in Gaza from a orthodox just war perspective, can be found here (http://www.amconmag.com/larison/).

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

I wonder what would happen if the American Revolution were to occur today.

[MannyIsGod]

WRONG.


There are many "oppressed" people in the world that don't launch random rocket attacks into populated areas and don't send their kids into crowded areas with the sole purpose of blowing themselves up and killing as many innocent bystanders as possible.

WTF about jihad don't you get?

Patrick Henry, the original Jihadist.

Or maybe he was just an expert at Hyperbole.

[temujin]

:lol

I wonder what would happen if the American Revolution were to occur today.


Mr. Washingon would be a dangerous terrorist by English standards.

[byrontx]

Fundamentalist Christians, neocons and Jews here in the US compel our country to provide support for Zionist Israelis to continue to grab land from the Palestinians. Muslim countries use the conflict to keep their people outwardly focused so that they tolerate oppressive governments and a lack of opportunity. Russia does what it can to keep the pot stirred because instability in the region generates a higher price for oil. Palestinians elect Hamas and get the war they wanted although with quite different results. The whole dynamic may change with a new administration, an erosion of the power of Christians and neocons here and a shellacking of Hamas. What can you do besides hope?

[Shastafarian]

I must need to brush up on my history. I can't recall American revolutionaries firing on and targeting British civilians.

[sook]

I must need to brush up on my history. I can't recall American revolutionaries firing on and targeting British civilians.

well...when you feed of the most powerful military on the face of the planet (us), you will need some target practice. I can't believe we are sending theses bastards more ammo.

[Shastafarian]

well...when you feed of the most powerful military on the face of the planet (us), you will need some target practice. I can't believe we are sending theses bastards more ammo.

What?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I must need to brush up on my history. I can't recall American revolutionaries firing on and targeting British civilians.

Back then, America would use guerrilla tactics to fight the British. I'm guessing that's what Manny's reffering to.

Its true, they did not target civilians, but the point is, back then the British did not appreciate the American's not repecting their rules of engagement. Things like using ambushes instead of open battles or specifically targetting officers. Back then the British would probably have considered such tactics, terrorism.

Times have changed obviously, but the point is still valid.

[Shastafarian]

Back then, America would use guerrilla tactics to fight the British. I'm guessing that's what Manny's reffering to.

Its true, they did not target civilians, but the point is, back then the British did not appreciate the American's not repecting their rules of engagement. Things like using ambushes instead of open battles or specifically targetting officers. Back then the British would probably have considered such tactics, terrorism.

Times have changed obviously, but the point is still valid.

It's not valid when the targets of the actions are completely different. It's a bad analogy. Unless I'm mistaken and American Revolutionaries targeted British civilians.

[SmellyFeet]

I lived in Israel for 11 years, and I just gave up on this whole mess. Israel opresses palestinians. palestinians fire rockets at israel. israel tries to stop those rocket attacks. Play over and over. Who started this cycle? doesn't really matter at this point, does it? I just really can't think of a solution.

[sook]

What?

If they developed and bought their own weapons (they can't) they wouldn't have anyone for target practice.

[MannyIsGod]

I must need to brush up on my history. I can't recall American revolutionaries firing on and targeting British civilians.

If you're going to make an argument that American colonialists were adverse to targeting civilians then i completely agree you need to brush up on your history. Or perhaps I need to just mention the words Native Americans in order to jog your memory a bit. Of course its a lot harder to attack the majority of the civilian population when its an ocean a way as opposed to right next door but what on earth would ever make you think that they were adverse to that type of action considering their track record is beyond me.

[Shastafarian]

If they developed and bought their own weapons (they can't) they wouldn't have anyone for target practice.

What the hell are you talking about? What does that have to do with the analogy I was responding to?

[Shastafarian]

If you're going to make an argument that American colonialists were adverse to targeting civilians then i completely agree you need to brush up on your history. Or perhaps I need to just mention the words Native Americans in order to jog your memory a bit. Of course its a lot harder to attack the majority of the civilian population when its an ocean a way as opposed to right next door but what on earth would ever make you think that they were adverse to that type of action considering their track record is beyond me.

This would be a good argument if it wasn't completely irrelevant. Now if you wanna equate the Palestinians to the Native Americans, then you would have something.

[Shaolin-Style]

Well, they're fighting like they mean it. If we'd have done the same, Nam would have been easier.

At least Hamas is going down.

[MannyIsGod]

This would be a good argument if it wasn't completely irrelevant. Now if you wanna equate the Palestinians to the Native Americans, then you would have something.

Actually no - I equated the Palestinians to American Revolutionaries. You responded by saying that held no water because Americans never attacked civilians. I then used Native Americans as an example of where they did just that.

[Shastafarian]

Actually no - I equated the Palestinians to American Revolutionaries. You responded by saying that held no water because Americans never attacked civilians. I then used Native Americans as an example of where they did just that.

Yes. It's irrelevant in the context on this argument. Unless you want to claim the native americans are analogous to the palestinians.

[MannyIsGod]

You claim the Americans didn't target civilians. They did and the native Americans are that proof. It isn't a very difficult concept.

[Nbadan]

Shouldn't the Palestinians be the Native Americans?

[Nbadan]

Human shields...


L5Die59jNlY

[SnakeBoy]

Shouldn't the Palestinians be the Native Americans?

If so then you'd have to say that Isreal is doing the right thing by slaughtering the Palestinians.

[Shastafarian]

You claim the Americans didn't target civilians. They did and the native Americans are that proof. It isn't a very difficult concept.

I claim that in the context of the American Revolution, the Americans didn't target civilians. Is that so hard to understand? Now if I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know. But I don't think I am.

[Shastafarian]

Human shields...


L5Die59jNlY

I don't get it. If Israel was looking to kill just about anyone, why would these soldiers have held their fire for some stupid woman standing in front of them?

[sook]

I claim that in the context of the American Revolution, the Americans didn't target civilians. Is that so hard to understand? Now if I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know. But I don't think I am.

Of course the revolutionaries didn't place a price on a native american scalp. And don't try with the argument that native americans weren't associated with the revolution, that just means you are looking at this argument from just your perspective.

[Shastafarian]

Of course the revolutionaries didn't place a price on a native american scalp. Sheep.

lol you keep calling me a sheep when you exhibit the sings more than I do. Repeat yourself? Check. Give short, unintelligible responses? Check. Never, ever change your (their) position? Check.

Was this a common practice during the American Revolution? Did the Revolutionaries do it as an act of war during said revolution?

[sook]

lol you keep calling me a sheep when you exhibit the sings more than I do. Repeat yourself? Check. Give short, unintelligible responses? Check. Never, ever change your (their) position? Check.

Was this a common practice during the American Revolution? Did the Revolutionaries do it as an act of war during said revolution?
http://www.realclimate.org/images/Sheep.jpg

[Shastafarian]

You're just proving my point there buddy.

[sook]

You're just proving my point there buddy.

as you are mine.

[Shastafarian]

as you are mine.

How am I proving your point?

[sook]

Shasta you need to free youself of this narrow minded approach to the issue. Don't come into the argument with a "Bad Guy" and "good guy" already set in your mind. You have to understand that when you are opressed you retaliate. Whether the other side wants to label that as terrorism is upto them. The rest of the world views what Israel carries out to be terrorism. Israel bombs Gaza. Gaza fires rockets. Israel claims it needs to eliminate terrorists.

[Shastafarian]

Shasta you need to free youself of this narrow minded approach to the issue. Don't come into the argument with a "Bad Guy" and "good guy" already set in your mind. You have to understand that when you are opressed you retaliate. Whether the other side wants to label that as terrorism is upto them. The rest of the world views what Israel carries out to be terrorism. Israel bombs Gaza. Gaza fires rockets. Israel claims it needs to eliminate terrorists.

Israel claims it needs to eliminate threats. They don't get hung up on the word "terrorism". How am I proving your point?

[sook]

How am I proving your point?

You reiterate your flawed logic in every post.

[Shastafarian]

You reiterate your flawed logic in every post.

What flawed logic is that? The part where I respond to every media claim with, "of course it's from israel!!! Those liars!"? Oh wait, that's not me.

[sook]

What flawed logic is that? The part where I respond to every media claim with, "of course it's from israel!!! Those liars!"? Oh wait, that's not me.

Its so flawed that you don't realize i have responded to your statement with claims of my own in previous posts. Its ok, i will repeat.

Whenever Israel attacks, you view it as an act to defend itself. You don't even consider the fact that they might be the ones at fault here, at least the rest of t he world seems to think so. Does whatever Hamaas carries on deserve the collective punishment of the entire palest. people?

[Shastafarian]

Its so flawed that you don't realize i have responded to your statement with claims of my own in previous posts. Its ok, i will repeat.

Whenever Israel attacks, you view it as an act to defend itself. You don't even consider the fact that they might be the ones at fault here, at least the rest of t he world seems to think so. Does whatever Hamaas carries on deserve the collective punishment of the entire palest. people?

I don't get it. Why can't you respond like this every time? Since I've only commented on this Gaza attack, I'm not sure what you mean by "whenever Israel attacks,". I consider the fact that it's not as clear cut as either side says it is. I do believe they found a tunnel with "militants" because it has happened before. It seems to be a popular way for Hamas to get supplies (guns, bomb materials, etc) into Israel. I don't think the entire Palestinian populace should be punished for what Hamas does. But I don't see a way around it. Hamas hides/lives among the people. What incentive do they have to come out and differentiate themselves from the Palestinian civilians?

[sook]

I don't get it. Why can't you respond like this every time? Since I've only commented on this Gaza attack, I'm not sure what you mean by "whenever Israel attacks,". I consider the fact that it's not as clear cut as either side says it is. I do believe they found a tunnel with "militants" because it has happened before. It seems to be a popular way for Hamas to get supplies (guns, bomb materials, etc) into Israel. I don't think the entire Palestinian populace should be punished for what Hamas does. But I don't see a way around it. Hamas hides/lives among the people. What incentive do they have to come out and differentiate themselves from the Palestinian civilians?
I'm glad we agree on something.
The palest. people don't deserve this.
So are around 1000 lives really worth killing 20 hamaas operatives? That is the question. Jimmy Carter, Tony Blair, Queen Noor, and lots of prominent people have come out and said they are appalled.

[MannyIsGod]

I claim that in the context of the American Revolution, the Americans didn't target civilians. Is that so hard to understand? Now if I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know. But I don't think I am.

How exactly would the American revolutionaries target British civilians considering they were a world away? You might as well say the analogy doesn't hold water because the Americans didn't use cell phones and the Palestinians do. If they were closer its easy to understand they would have been targeted considering that our history is one of attack civilian populations in nearly every single war we've fought up until very recent American History. Even in the damn civil war. The reason what you say doesn't hold water is because when given the opportunity Americans did attack civilians.

[Shastafarian]

How exactly would the American revolutionaries target British civilians considering they were a world away? You might as well say the analogy doesn't hold water because the Americans didn't use cell phones and the Palestinians do. If they were closer its easy to understand they would have been targeted considering that our history is one of attack civilian populations in nearly every single war we've fought up until very recent American History. Even in the damn civil war. The reason what you say doesn't hold water is because when given the opportunity Americans did attack civilians.

The analogy doesn't hold water because it's based on an assumption that can never be proven.

[MannyIsGod]

You're right the American track history of attack civilians doesn't prove they would have done so in the revolution given the chance. Except it does. But the analogy didn't even hinge on that point to begin with.

Should I just compare them to Americans from another era to make the analogy hold water for you? Is the killing of civillians the most important aspect of what denotes terrorism to you? Which side is losing far more civillians in this war, btw?

[sook]

shasta please don't tell me whottt took over your acct

[Winehole23]

So are around 1000 lives really worth killing 20 hamaas operatives?Given the press blackout in Gaza, reliable numbers are are very hard to come by. Where do you get yours, sook?

Sources dated yesterday generally agree that Palestinian fatalities in Gaza are now somewhere north of 800 and the injured well over 3,000. (http://www.dfid.gov.uk/news/files/gaza-humanitarian-feature.asp)

Israel claims 300 Hamas killed (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24900446-15084,00.html) so far. Curiously, a large number of articles yesterday citing "Palestinian sources" say about half the dead are civilian. This article (http://newsfrommiddleeast.com/?xstart=b&new=50646) claims an 85% rate of civilian casualties but also reports the UN estimate going the other way:


While the UN continues to claim that "only" 25% of the casualties from the attacks on Gaza are civilian, the Mezan Center for Human Rights (known for the care it takes not to overstate the numbers and for its strict verification policies) estimates that the number of civilian casualties is approximately 85%. In particular, the number of children has increased to over 200, and the number of women has surpassed 75. One reason for the lower civilian casualty figures used by the UN has to do with the reluctance to consider men -other than the elderly and sick- as non-combatants.20 Hamas killed strikes me as being improbably low, based on what the sources most sympathetic to Palestinians are reporting.

Was your figure PFA, sook, or do you have a link?

[Shastafarian]

You're right the American track history of attack civilians doesn't prove they would have done so in the revolution given the chance. Except it does. But the analogy didn't even hinge on that point to begin with.So by this logic, they'd also enslave british civilians when they came across them. In case you hadn't noticed, many settlers didn't look at native americans as humans.


Should I just compare them to Americans from another era to make the analogy hold water for you? Is the killing of civillians the most important aspect of what denotes terrorism to you? Which side is losing far more civillians in this war, btw?

Sure. Compare them to Americans from another era. That would be a different analogy and it might actually be a good one.

[sook]

Given the press blackout in Gaza, reliable numbers are are very hard to come by. Where do you get yours, sook?

Sources dated yesterday generally agree that Palestinian fatalities in Gaza are now somewhere north of 800 and the injured well over 3,000. (http://www.dfid.gov.uk/news/files/gaza-humanitarian-feature.asp)

Israel claims 300 Hamas killed (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24900446-15084,00.html) so far. Curiously, a large number of articles yesterday citing "Palestinian sources" say about half the dead are civilian. This article (http://newsfrommiddleeast.com/?xstart=b&new=50646) claims an 85% rate of civilian casualties but also reports the UN estimate going the other way:

20 Hamas killed strikes me as being improbably low, based on what the sources most sympathetic to Palestinians are reporting.

Was your figure PFA, sook, or do you have a link?

not it wasn't a fact -_-, FOX news this morning reported around 900. But the U.N seriously has its facts mixed up, all men as considered combatants? Are they serious?

[Winehole23]

not it wasn't a fact -_-, FOX news this morning reported around 900. But the U.N seriously has its facts mixed up, all men as considered combatants? Are they serious?I cited stories supporting a range of 90-300 Hamas killed. The low end comes from an Islamic human rights group.

The high end ( the UN estimate) is even higher than the Israeli figure of 300, so we can safely disregard the UN estimate. Forget all about it.

Where do you get your figure of 20 Hamas killed, sook?

No dodging...no hoarding the knowledge...please provide a link to support your post.

[RandomGuy]

I must need to brush up on my history. I can't recall American revolutionaries firing on and targeting British civilians.

Tories were not dealt with nicely in Pro-revolutionary areas.

[DarrinS]

Patrick Henry, the original Jihadist.

Or maybe he was just an expert at Hyperbole.


OMFG! This thread took an amazingly dumb detour!

[RandomGuy]

OMFG! This thread took an amazingly dumb detour!

What thread here doesn't sooner or later? :lol

I would be more suprised if an emotionally charged thread didn't.

[Winehole23]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/pl_afp/mideastconflictgazaolmertusrice_newsmlmmd

Rice shame-faced by Bush over UN Gaza vote: Olmert


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20090112/capt.photo_1231782977376-1-0.jpg?x=213&y=269&xc=1&yc=1&wc=325&hc=410&q=100&sig=Ld5x.5ZZythMRcAedBraLg-- (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/US-Secretary-of-State-Condoleezza-Rice/photo//090112/photos_pl_afp/f1c1e60416353706655e9262202ed591//s:/afp/20090112/pl_afp/mideastconflictgazaolmertusrice_newsmlmmd) AFP/Getty Images/File – U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice speaks during a news conference at the State Department in Washington, …


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20090112/videolthumb.62eb2a697e5c80ec4332eb18fe28a157.jpg?x =50&y=50&xc=51&yc=1&wc=300&hc=300&q=100&sig=T4boBTTMQCXmtvaJd61FAw-- Play Video (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/ynews;_ylt=AsuMeC_heqTXuOHeb1IiI4.tOrgF?ch=4226714&cl=11507452&lang=en) Mideast Video: "Joe the Plumber" becomes a war correspondent (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/ynews;_ylt=AihSPjFiVkxm7_Upg5NJPnOtOrgF?ch=4226714&cl=11507452&lang=en) AP (http://news.yahoo.com/i/2523;_ylt=ApLT9BktIzw7685t6zUzVVetOrgF)
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/fox/20090112/vidlthumb.55f3e712cb8ddd799220b54030829d61.jpg?x=5 0&y=50&xc=24&yc=1&wc=58&hc=58&q=100&sig=mMrXuddUq5SeYvgipVKAhg-- Play Video (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/ynews;_ylt=AgTfyUg8Z9DBYQ6wTRUUrUatOrgF?ch=4226714&cl=11505931&lang=en) Mideast Video: 'Israeli Endorsement'? (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/ynews;_ylt=AvQOoXYrFuLUItuql2XIvHatOrgF?ch=4226714&cl=11505931&lang=en) FOX News (http://news.yahoo.com/i/3062;_ylt=An8c_sU6X.jfApjaEHpRTQOtOrgF)
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/cbs_local/20090112/videolthumb.4f909f1caa9b6fbd110dcfcb2b758b04.jpg?x =50&y=50&xc=39&yc=1&wc=225&hc=225&q=100&sig=Dg5AFSGWcvKxo3sWolxsrA-- Play Video (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/ylocalnews;_ylt=Avft60pVXtheBkzO7XVfMMytOrgF?ch=42 26712&cl=11505856&lang=en) Mideast Video: Taking Sides On Gaza Violence In Denver (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/ylocalnews;_ylt=AmgNIDfUlXPZHhcCJO6zGm.tOrgF?ch=42 26712&cl=11505856&lang=en) CBS4 Denver (http://news.yahoo.com/i/2824;_ylt=ApTyj.bYtGBDfFi.0FH3JzutOrgF)


JERUSALEM (AFP) – US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was left shame-faced after President George W. Bush ordered her to abstain in a key UN vote on the Gaza war, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Monday.


"She was left shamed. A resolution that she prepared and arranged, and in the end she did not vote in favour," Olmert said in a speech in the southern town of Ashkelon.
The UN Security Council passed a resolution last Thursday calling for an immediate ceasefire in the three-week-old conflict in the Gaza Strip and an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza where hundreds have been killed.


Fourteen of the council's 15 members voted in favour of the resolution, which was later rejected by both Israel and Hamas.


The United States, Israel's main ally, had initially been expected to voted in line with the other 14 but Rice later became the sole abstention.


"In the night between Thursday and Friday, when the secretary of state wanted to lead the vote on a ceasefire at the Security Council, we did not want her to vote in favour," Olmert said.


"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.


"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."


Bush has consistently placed the blame for the conflict on Hamas, telling reporters on Monday that while he wanted to see a "sustainable ceasefire" in Gaza, it was up to Hamas to choose to end its rocket fire on Israel.


But a US State Department official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, denied Olmert's claim.


"Mr. Olmert is wrong," the official said.


Even if everything had gone according to plan, "she would have abstained. That was the plan," said the official. "The government of Israel does not make US policy."

[DarkReign]

What fucking joke.

Agree with Condi/Bush or not, the fact that some piss-ant country in the middle of nowhere even gets the kind of attention Israel does is pathetic.

Olmert telling our President what to do? Come the fuck on....

[jochhejaam]

Agree with Condi/Bush or not, the fact that some piss-ant country...
Why do you consider Israel a pissant Country?



...in the middle of nowhere...
Do you have a rational explanation for your characterization of the Middle East as being "nowhere"?



...even gets the kind of attention Israel does is pathetic.
Like it or not, Israel is an ally to the United States, and attention we give them keeps them from being annihilated by rogue nations and terrorists.

Do you have any friends you would be willing to do anything for, or are you a person that would turn his back on a friend if enough people pressured you to do so?

"There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend" -John-

[sook]

I always thought that we ran Israel, because without us Israel is basically nothing, but i guess i had it the other way around.

I don't like Bush too much, but i would have wanted him to slap Olmert in the face for using that demeanor.

[sook]

Why do you consider Israel a pissant Country?



Do you have a rational explanation for your characterization of the Middle East as being "nowhere"?



Like it or not, Israel is an ally to the United States, and attention we give them keeps them from being annihilated by rogue nations and terrorists.

Do you have any friends you would be willing to do anything for, or are you a person that would turn his back on a friend if enough people pressured you to do so?

"There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend" -John-

Are you fugging serious? Its not our damn job to ensure their existence, do we do that with any of our other allies? Before you say anything, why is Israel such a great Ally, what do they do for us? I know they give us a bad rep in the mid east but apart from that? Is it really their place to tell our government what to do? We just gave those ungrateful bastards tons of ammo to kill more children in their pathetic self defense excuse of an operation.

Oh, and on your friend analogy, i think the shittiest friend would be the one that would keep his mouth shut and wouldn't tell his buddy he was doing something wrong. But that doesn't apply here, because this is a bitch and master relationship. And *hint, we're not the master.

[sook]

I cited stories supporting a range of 90-300 Hamas killed. The low end comes from an Islamic human rights group.

The high end ( the UN estimate) is even higher than the Israeli figure of 300, so we can safely disregard the UN estimate. Forget all about it.

Where do you get your figure of 20 Hamas killed, sook?

No dodging...no hoarding the knowledge...please provide a link to support your post.

oh sorry i didn't read this. Yea i will admit i said something off the top of my head, no facts here, you're right.

[jochhejaam]

Are you fugging serious? Its not our damn job to ensure their existence, do we do that with any of our other allies?
If we had another ally under the constant threat of attack, yes, we would come to their aid.





Before you say anything, why is Israel such a great Ally, what do they do for us?
Does a Country have to be in a position to come to our aid for them to be an ally?
I'll pose a question to you that is similar to the one I left with my good friend DR;
Does someone have to be in a position to help you out in order for them to be your friend? I was taught that; "those who are strong are to bear the infirmities of those that are weak".




I know they give us a bad rep in the mid east but apart from that? Is it really their place to tell our government what to do?
No, it's not, and Olmert telling us to abstain was debunked, was it not?



We just gave those ungrateful bastards tons of ammo to kill more children in their pathetic self defense excuse of an operation.
I've read more that a bit of the posts and this thread sook, and you and I are not going to end up agreeing with the hows and whys of the Israeli, Hamas conflict. Hamas has the ability to end this at any time by agreeing to a truce, the fact that they don't do so, while continuing to launch rockets at Israel from civilian populated areas speaks volumes about how much they care about their civilians.



Oh, and on your friend analogy, i think the shittiest friend would be the one that would keep his mouth shut and wouldn't tell his buddy he was doing something wrong. But that doesn't apply here, because this is a bitch and master relationship. And *hint, we're not the master.
As previously stated, we will not agree on much, and this is no exception.

[sook]

If we had another ally under the constant threat of attack, yes, we would come to their aid.





Does a Country have to be in a position to come to our aid for them to be an ally?
I'll pose a question to you that is similar to the one I left with my good friend DR;
Does someone have to be in a position to help you out in order for them to be your friend? I was taught that; "those who are strong are to bear the infirmities of those that are weak".




No, it's not, and Olmert telling us to abstain was debunked, was it not?



I've read more that a bit of the posts and this thread sook, and you and I are not going to end up agreeing with the hows and whys of the Israeli, Hamas conflict. Hamas has the ability to end this at any time by agreeing to a truce, the fact that they don't do so, while continuing to launch rockets at Israel from civilian populated areas speaks volumes about how much they care about their civilians.



As previously stated, we will not agree on much, and this is no exception.

i think your point was smart. We won't agree on much. But i don't want to make it look like i am a Hamaas supporter, i think the bastards need to be eliminated, but they can't be stopped militarily, which is why Israel is retarded.

Btw, why was it debunked? Do you expect an Official to concede to the fact they dictate our policy? Its either that or you are calling Olmert a liar, i don't see why he would lie about something like that.

[Winehole23]

No, it's not, and Olmert telling us to abstain was debunked, was it not?The stuff about Olmert demanding Bush on the phone in the middle of a speech was surely bluster, but why would Olmert misrepresent himself about lobbying for an abstention? The WH did not deny there was a call. It only denied that Israel makes US policy.

The SC resolution was largely crafted by Sec'y Rice. Why would she abstain from voting on a deal she put together herself?

I suppose odder things have happened in the course of diplomacy, but this is pretty odd. Perhaps Ms. Rice exceeded her mandate and the President reeled her in. Or maybe we can take Mr. Olmert at his word. Maybe we abstained as a favor to our ally. Is that really so improbable?

At any rate, both sides rejected the truce resolution anyway, so it appears a yes vote would have cost the US and her ally Israel very little. It might even have been beneficial for the US, without doing any de facto damage to the US-Israel tie.

[jochhejaam]

The stuff about Olmert demanding Bush on the phone in the middle of a speech was surely bluster, but why would Olmert misrepresent himself about lobbying for an abstention? The WH did not deny there was a call. It only denied that Israel makes US policy.
What I meant to convey, and I didn't do a very good job of it, is that the United States is not taking orders from Olmert or Israel.
Perhaps Olmert takes the same position at the negotiating table that labor unions do, that is; ask for more than you expect and hope to get what you can live with.





The SC resolution was largely crafted by Sec'y Rice. Why would she abstain from voting on a deal she put together herself?
I suppose odder things have happened in the course of diplomacy, but this is pretty odd. Perhaps Ms. Rice exceeded her mandate and the President reeled her in. Or maybe we can take Mr. Olmert at his word. Maybe we abstained as a favor to our ally. Is that really so improbable?
The deal Rice put together "herself" (I have a hard time believing that she crafted the deal without any input from anyone else whatsoever) was more moderate than what others came up with. As with Olmert it may have been somewhat of a compromise from what we would have considered an ideal deal (it seemed to me that Bush was originally giving them carte blanche with whatever they decided should be done to Hamas), but more palatable than what had previoulsy been brought to the table.
Abstaining for the sake of an ally is also plausible.

[Winehole23]

The deal Rice put together "herself" (I have a hard time believing that she crafted the deal without any input from anyone else whatsoever) I did not say so. But according to accounts much of the language in it was was proposed by Sec'y Rice. That is why her abstention came as a surprise to the other members.

For the record, I don't think Israel dictates policy to the US. But I do think the US, at times, is excessively deferential to Israel. Our respective interests are far from identical. Even the best of friends will disagree, sometimes about very important things. It would be strange if they never did, wouldn't it?

[Winehole23]

It would be strange if they never did, wouldn't it?For example, I think this will come as a surprise to many on this board:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/11iran.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=iran attack&st=cse

[jochhejaam]

I did not say so. But according to accounts much of the language in it was was proposed by Sec'y Rice. That is why her abstention came as a surprise to the other members.
That was for the record (I know, duly noted), not directed at you.



For the record, I don't think Israel dictates policy to the US. But I do think the US, at times, is excessively deferential to Israel. Our respective interests are far from identical.
Excessively differential? Sure, but by our choice, not Israel strongarming us.
As far as I can determine, when it comes to the biggies, Israel asks, and ultimately defers to our opinion.







Even the best of friends will disagree, sometimes about very important things. It would be strange if they never did, wouldn't it?
I'll assume that's rhetorical.

[Winehole23]

Excessively differential? Sure, but by our choice, not Israel strongarming us. The power of the Israel lobby in the US -- though it is surely exaggerated by some -- ought not to be underestimated.


As far as I can determine, when it comes to the biggies, Israel asks, and ultimately defers to our opinion.Please find the link immediately above your last post. I agree.

[BlackSwordsMan]

There's a link you can watch the war live. =]

[jochhejaam]

Please find the link immediately above your last post. I agree.
You can feel the tension in the article, good read. The information in the article underscores the tenuous nature of the Israeli-Iran conflict.

Robert Gates appears to be quite level-headed, perhaps key to preventing an unnecessary or premature escalation of hostilities between Iran and Israel, although I believe a catastrophic confrontation is an eventuality, and more than likely, inevitable.

[DarkReign]

Why do you consider Israel a pissant Country?

Because it is. The only value Israel brings to the US is a testing area for new weapons technology. Its a literal sandbox for the military industrial complex to test theyre latest and greatest techs in a known area of constant "warfare".

Thats the way I see it anyway.


Do you have a rational explanation for your characterization of the Middle East as being "nowhere"?

Really? If you take away the Middle East's ancient history and its one and only natural resource, what exact value does it have?

There is no more Silk Road. Beyond its military positioning for the bullshit War on Terror, what advantages does it offer?

None. Especially Israel. Theyre favorable with the US for God-only-knows-why (my guess, the military testing grounds and the military convenience of a presence in the Middle East which is only good for oil.)


Like it or not, Israel is an ally to the United States, and attention we give them keeps them from being annihilated by rogue nations and terrorists.

Do you have any friends you would be willing to do anything for, or are you a person that would turn his back on a friend if enough people pressured you to do so?

Israel is one helluva friend, arent they? What, they only cost us something to the tune of $60 billion a year to stay our friend.

Are you in the business of buying friends? I know I am not. Nor should our country be. Israel offers nothing beyond the military advantages mentioned earlier, IMO.

And to be honest, those arent nearly good enough for me.


"There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend" -John-

Save it. Its this exact reason we have any interest in Israel to begin with. They read from a similar Book. Beyond that, not much in common (save a hate for terrorists).

Lets cut-off our billion dollar donations to Israel (or shit, even halve it) and see how much of a friend they really are. They (the Jews in power in Israel) cater to American interests only because we pay them to do so. They are not our friends in any way, shape or form beyond the monetary relationship.

[DarkReign]

As far as I can determine, when it comes to the biggies, Israel asks, and ultimately defers to our opinion.

Because. We. Pay. Them.

No other reason (unlike Britain, the US' only true ally).

[Extra Stout]

Electoral votes:
New York 31
Florida 27
Michigan 17

Final score: Israel 58, Palestine 17. Israel wins!

[DarkReign]

Electoral votes:
New York 31
Florida 27
Michigan 17

Final score: Israel 58, Palestine 17. Israel wins!

I didnt realize Florida had a large Jewish population. Michigan certainly does.

Then again, maybe I dont get what youre saying.

[MannyIsGod]

I didnt realize Florida had a large Jewish population. Michigan certainly does.

Then again, maybe I dont get what youre saying.

He's saying Jewish interests are far more important to American politicos because of their electorate and he's right. But it goes farther than simply Jews because a lot of Christians relate faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more to Jews than Muslims.

[DarkReign]

He's saying Jewish interests are far more important to American politicos because of their electorate and he's right. But it goes farther than simply Jews because a lot of Christians relate faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more to Jews than Muslims.

Is that reason enough to finance their very existence and cow-tow to their policy in the UN (as if the UN is relevant anymore, but you get the idea)?

This entire premise is bothersome to say the least. Israel offers nothing of significance to the United States and its interests, save for its position on the globe (which owes its very existence to the Allies in the first place, namely the US and Britain).

I just dont think we owe Israel shit on a stick much less a veto-holding vote in the UN.

WTF would Israel do without the US? What would the US do without Israel?

This entire relationship is the most dysfunctional, unexplainable and as completely one-sided as any I can think of. There is just little to no reason for our constant capitulance to the tiny, insignificant state of Israel. None.

I think what youre saying is that Jewish people can influence a national election with their presence in certain large-electoral states?

Am I reading that correctly? If thats one of the reasons we as an entire country are breaking our backs to satisfy the wills of a nation equivalent to a developed Venezula, its all the more reason to drop the pretense of their importance.

They are not important. Theyre important in the Middle East, thats it. Which as of now, we have interet in (although it is an interest I care to never understand...they have oil, thats it...take it, secure it, and let them figure out how to kill each other better for all I give a shit).

[Extra Stout]

He's saying Jewish interests are far more important to American politicos because of their electorate and he's right. But it goes farther than simply Jews because a lot of Christians relate faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more to Jews than Muslims.
In light of the history of Western civilization, living in a red-state suburb has to be like a lifelong episode of the Twilight Zone for an American Jew.

[RandomGuy]

In light of the history of Western civilization, living in a red-state suburb has to be like a lifelong episode of the Twilight Zone for an American Jew.

Bacon, bacon everywhere and nary a deli to dine at...

[DarkReign]

In light of the history of Western civilization, living in a red-state suburb has to be like a lifelong episode of the Twilight Zone for an American Jew.

Exactly, I dont particularly see the similarity between your typical Southern Baptist, Bible-thumping nimrod and your typical American Jew.

Then again, I dont live near Dearborn, MI. Very large and dense Jewish population there. And who lives right next door? The Arabs and their Mosque Bells ringing to signify when one should point toward Mecca.

Why is it the Jews and Arabs move with one another? Youd think theyd say something like "Ok, ok, ok...we get Dearborn, MI, you get Springfield, IL...deal?"

Nope. Instead, they densely populate a small city on the outskirts of Detroit and live 2 blocks from one anothers historical enemy a continent+ocean away.

Maybe Jews arent as smart as they think they are, then again...

...sneaky damn Jews...

[Shastafarian]

Exactly, I dont particularly see the similarity between your typical Southern Baptist, Bible-thumping nimrod and your typical American Jew.

Then again, I dont live near Dearborn, MI. Very large and dense Jewish population there. And who lives right next door? The Arabs and their Mosque Bells ringing to signify when one should point toward Mecca.

Why is it the Jews and Arabs move with one another? Youd think theyd say something like "Ok, ok, ok...we get Dearborn, MI, you get Springfield, IL...deal?"

Nope. Instead, they densely populate a small city on the outskirts of Detroit and live 2 blocks from one anothers historical enemy a continent+ocean away.

Maybe Jews arent as smart as they think they are, then again...

...sneaky damn Jews...

I feel like vomiting

[Cry Havoc]

Youd think theyd say something like "Ok, ok, ok...we get Dearborn, MI, you get Springfield, IL...deal?

Bumped for my birthplace. :D (Springfield)

[Extra Stout]

Exactly, I dont particularly see the similarity between your typical Southern Baptist, Bible-thumping nimrod and your typical American Jew.
The Twilight Zone part is the intense, passionate, indefatigable pro-Semitism of your typical Southern Baptist, Bible-thumping nimrod, which is just about unheard of in the history of Western Christendom.

[Extra Stout]

Nope. Instead, they densely populate a small city on the outskirts of Detroit and live 2 blocks from one anothers historical enemy a continent+ocean away.

Maybe Jews arent as smart as they think they are, then again...

...sneaky damn Jews...
I'm guessing the falafel at Cracker Barrel doesn't taste that good...

[DarkReign]

The Twilight Zone part is the intense, passionate, indefatigable pro-Semitism of your typical Southern Baptist, Bible-thumping nimrod, which is just about unheard of in the history of Western Christendom.

Really?! I work with a southern baptist who doesnt live in the south (obviously).

I know, I know, one does not equal many. Who knew there was such raving support for Jews in the rural south (besides you, ES)?

[DarkReign]

I feel like vomiting

Are you choking on something, or...?

[Extra Stout]

Really?! I work with a southern baptist who doesnt live in the south (obviously).

I know, I know, one does not equal many. Who knew there was such raving support for Jews in the rural south (besides you, ES)?
If a Southern Baptist were on a doomed plane with a Jew and two Catholics, and he only had three parachutes, he'd take one, give one to the Jew, and throw the third out the hatch.

[smeagol]

If a Southern Baptist were on a doomed plane with a Jew and two Catholics, and he only had three parachutes, he'd take one, give one to the Jew, and throw the third out the hatch.

You know I don't appreciate hearing that . . . :td

[Shastafarian]

Are you choking on something, or...?

Maybe I misunderstood your post but I didn't appreciate this very much, "Maybe Jews arent as smart as they think they are, then again...

...sneaky damn Jews... "

[DarkReign]

Maybe I misunderstood your post but I didn't appreciate this very much, "Maybe Jews arent as smart as they think they are, then again...

...sneaky damn Jews... "

Yeah, that was my (admittedly) lame attempt at humor. I hold no conscious prejudices against any human being, especially for something as trivial as religion.

Well, trivial in my mind...

[DarkReign]

If a Southern Baptist were on a doomed plane with a Jew and two Catholics, and he only had three parachutes, he'd take one, give one to the Jew, and throw the third out the hatch.

Learn something new everyday. Thanks.

I did have a weird conversation with a young, female employee once though.

She is some hardcore, small sect of Christianity. Dont ask me which one, I dont know.

Anyway, she came from this cult (her last name is Kultz, talk about irony) and came to work for our sister company thru co-op. One of our first conversations, somehow religion came up (she brought it up, not me, I remember that). Went something like this....

Me: I was baptised Catholic, but I claim to be agnostic if anything at all."

Her: Oh, well I am Christian.

Me: Uhhhh, yeah, I was baptised Catholic.

Her: Right, Im Christian.

Me: Oooook, you do know Catholicism is also a Christian religion?

Her: *smirk* Not it isnt.

Me: This conversation is over.

So I think your insight on a southern baptist has merit, for what its worth. It would seem Catholics are despised the world over these days.

Big whoop.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

If a Southern Baptist were on a doomed plane with a Jew and two Catholics, and he only had three parachutes, he'd take one, give one to the Jew, and throw the third out the hatch.

:lol

[LaMarcus Bryant]

What fucking joke.

Agree with Condi/Bush or not, the fact that some piss-ant country in the middle of nowhere even gets the kind of attention Israel does is pathetic.

Olmert telling our President what to do? Come the fuck on....

but-but-but---the jews were massacred by hitler!!! That entitles them to special status for the rest of humankind's history.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

If we had another ally under the constant threat of attack, yes, we would come to their aid.



L O L

Ever heard of fucking Mexico? They've been faced with the physical equivalent of a mass armed insurrection for years, that sometimes spills over into the USA itself, and we have not done shit.

LOL
This is the dumbest post you've made in quite some time.

But my bad, you're right. The Mexicans were not killed en masse during WWII. So it's a completely different set of circumstances.

[Shastafarian]

but-but-but---the jews were massacred by hitler!!! That entitles them to special status for the rest of humankind's history.

Awww how bigoty.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Is that reason enough to finance their very existence and cow-tow to their policy in the UN (as if the UN is relevant anymore, but you get the idea)?

This entire premise is bothersome to say the least. Israel offers nothing of significance to the United States and its interests, save for its position on the globe (which owes its very existence to the Allies in the first place, namely the US and Britain).

I just dont think we owe Israel shit on a stick much less a veto-holding vote in the UN.

WTF would Israel do without the US? What would the US do without Israel?

This entire relationship is the most dysfunctional, unexplainable and as completely one-sided as any I can think of. There is just little to no reason for our constant capitulance to the tiny, insignificant state of Israel. None.




I believe the word you are looking for to best describe the relationship would be "parasitic".
Because that's exactly what Israel is.

[Shastafarian]

I believe the word you are looking for to best describe the relationship would be "parasitic".
Because that's exactly what Israel is.

So I guess every country that receives aid from us is a parasite? What are your qualifications for a country being "parasitic"? Are we a parasite on China?

[LaMarcus Bryant]

So I guess every country that receives aid from us is a parasite? What are your qualifications for a country being "parasitic"? Are we a parasite on China?

You would recieve an F minus in logic class. You have no concept of a linear thought.

I'd describe our relationship with China as mutualistic, although its up for debate who is getting the best end of that deal.

[Shastafarian]

You would recieve an F minus in logic class. You have no concept of a linear thought.hahaha since I'm so stupid, please explain.


I'd describe our relationship with China as mutualistic, although its up for debate who is getting the best end of that deal.

Really? If you were to look under a child's toy would it say "Made in Somalia"? How about anything in your house. Where would you say the majority of your personal items were made?

I guess any military intelligence or product development from Israel (look up where Intel has large facilities) don't count, right?

[DarkReign]

Really? If you were to look under a child's toy would it say "Made in Somalia"? How about anything in your house. Where would you say the majority of your personal items were made?

I guess any military intelligence or product development from Israel (look up where Intel has large facilities) don't count, right?

To be fair, those items we receive are paid for. As in trade.

Our relationship with Israel is no form of trade. Its 51st state-ish minus any tax revenue.

[Shastafarian]

To be fair, those items we receive are paid for. As in trade.
Ok what would happen if China decided to cut off all outgoing shipments? What would happen to us? Seems we're dependent on their goods.

Our relationship with Israel is no form of trade. Its 51st state-ish minus any tax revenue.
It's closer to that yes, but to claim that we receive nothing form Israel is ludicrous.

[DarkReign]

Ok what would happen if China decided to cut off all outgoing shipments? What would happen to us? Seems we're dependent on their goods.

Minus the TBills China buys to prop us up (which is a huge exception), they are not outright giving us money. They expect to be paid, it is a debt of sorts, in the governments-and-their-priorities sort of way.

But I dont believe we are as dependant on China as Israel is on the US.

If China stopped shipping its widgets and whatsits to us, sure, my living room wouldnt look the same.

We cut off funding to Israel, and theyre months away from being wiped off the face of the Earth.

I'd say thats a glaring difference in our relationship.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

lol @ shastafarian displaying his complete ignorance of simple terms
that's why we have google, breh

[Shastafarian]

Minus the TBills China buys to prop us up (which is a huge exception), they are not outright giving us money. They expect to be paid, it is a debt of sorts, in the governments-and-their-priorities sort of way.

But I dont believe we are as dependant on China as Israel is on the US.

If China stopped shipping its widgets and whatsits to us, sure, my living room wouldnt look the same.

We cut off funding to Israel, and theyre months away from being wiped off the face of the Earth.

I'd say thats a glaring difference in our relationship.
I just don't think that's true. If we stop giving money to Israel, they'll find someone else. Hell Russia does business with everyone. They wouldn't give Israel what we give Israel, but I'm sure Israel would be fine.

Oh and if China decided to stop shipping us children's toys, frying pans, golf clubs, etc., our consumer economy would collapse.

[Shastafarian]

lol @ shastafarian displaying his complete ignorance of simple terms
that's why we have google, breh

What, you can't explain it? If you understand it so well explain it to me.

[The Reckoning]

Learn something new everyday. Thanks.

I did have a weird conversation with a young, female employee once though.

She is some hardcore, small sect of Christianity. Dont ask me which one, I dont know.

Anyway, she came from this cult (her last name is Kultz, talk about irony) and came to work for our sister company thru co-op. One of our first conversations, somehow religion came up (she brought it up, not me, I remember that). Went something like this....

Me: I was baptised Catholic, but I claim to be agnostic if anything at all."

Her: Oh, well I am Christian.

Me: Uhhhh, yeah, I was baptised Catholic.

Her: Right, Im Christian.

Me: Oooook, you do know Catholicism is also a Christian religion?

Her: *smirk* Not it isnt.

Me: This conversation is over.

So I think your insight on a southern baptist has merit, for what its worth. It would seem Catholics are despised the world over these days.

Big whoop.


true that. here's a short story of mine when i was waiting tables in the middle of nowhere. this is some random lady i was waiting.

Me: would you like some more tea, ma'm?

Her: do you know Jesus?

Me: excuse me?

Her: have you read the good book? do you know exactly where you're going when you die?

Me: uhhhh. yes m'am. i'm baptised and confirmed.

Her: wait....you must be Catholic. don't bother answering my question...we know where y'all are going anyway.


turns out she was the town pastor's wife...and the pastor was sitting with her. he didn't say a damn word to correct her stupidity

[tonylongoriafan]

what's the score and how much time is remaining?

[jochhejaam]

Because it is. The only value Israel brings to the US is a testing area for new weapons technology. Its a literal sandbox for the military industrial complex to test theyre latest and greatest techs in a known area of constant "warfare".
Everything you ever wanted to know about Israel, but were afraid to ask. Thanks for the in depth education on what's going on in the State of Israel! (so you don't take that as a compliment, I'll let you know that it's well deserved sarcasm).
What a joke of an explanation for characterizing Israel as a pissant Country
Educate yourself on the Country, and quit rambling with silly, unfounded generalizations (if you don't want to put in much effort, start off with something simple, such as wikipedia), and you may not come across as being so ignorant.


Really? If you take away the Middle East's ancient history and its one and only natural resource, what exact value does it have?
More nonsense (surprise). Take away your history and your resources, and what exactly are you? I'll save you some time trying to formulate an educated answer to the question, and tell you that you would be nothing.





Israel is one helluva friend, arent they? What, they only cost us something to the tune of $60 billion a year to stay our friend.

Are you in the business of buying friends? I know I am not. Nor should our country be. Israel offers nothing beyond the military advantages mentioned earlier, IMO.

And to be honest, those arent nearly good enough for me.
Again, you're definition of friendship is based on reciprocity, that is, if one Party has nothing to offer in the way of material substance, then they cannot and should not be a friend (you must be one helluva friend).

Much of our welfare class have nothing to offer in return for what they get, and are basically receivers only. Should we disparage them and abandon them too, as you say we should Israel?

And no, I'm not in the "business" of buying friends, but I help my friends out whenever they ask to the fullest extent of my abilities and resources.

[smeagol]

but-but-but---the jews were massacred by hitler!!! That entitles them to special status for the rest of humankind's history.

Because of the Holocaust and because of many other things.

You have a problem with that . . . ?

Blacks also have a special status (well deserved) because of the idiotic things whites have done to them.

Do you also have a problem with that too . . . ?

[RandomGuy]

Why Israel will, yet again, probably come out of this encounter in a worse position than before:

The nine paradoxes of counter insurgency:


[QUOTE]Paradox 1:
The more you protect your force, the less secure you are
Paradox 2:
The more force you use, the less effective you are
Paradox 3:
The more successful counterinsurgency is, the less force can be used
Paradox 4:
Sometimes doing nothing is the best reaction
Paradox 5:
The best weapons for counterinsurgency do not shoot
Paradox 6:
Native entities doing something tolerably better than occupiers doing it well
Paradox 7:
If a tactic works this week, it will not work next week
Paradox 8:
Tactical success guarantees nothing
Paradox 9:
Most important decisions are not made by generals


Israel never had a Vietnam to learn these lessons, aside from the disasterous but brief incursion into Lebannon in 2006.

[RandomGuy]

Conservatives just can't wrap their heads around #4 in this case.

Here is an interesting thought exercise for the group here:

What would happen if Israel had simply put a huge sustained effort into publicity showing 100% of the damage done by the Hamas rocket attacks?

[DarkReign]

Everything you ever wanted to know about Israel, but were afraid to ask. Thanks for the in depth education on what's going on in the State of Israel! (so you don't take that as a compliment, I'll let you know that it's well deserved sarcasm).
What a joke of an explanation for characterizing Israel as a pissant Country
Educate yourself on the Country, and quit rambling with silly, unfounded generalizations (if you don't want to put in much effort, start off with something simple, such as wikipedia), and you may not come across as being so ignorant.

Kiss my ass, troll. Follow someone else around.

Israel IS a piss-ant country. How about you take your religious blinders off for half a second and look at the situation from a secular persepective for once in your life of God.

You dont think it is? Thats fine, BJ. As someone else says on this forum, we trade in opinions. My opinion says Israel doesnt mean shit to the US. Your opinion says otherwise. That doesnt make you right, that gives you an opinion.


More nonsense (surprise). Take away your history and your resources, and what exactly are you? I'll save you some time trying to formulate an educated answer to the question, and tell you that you would be nothing.

What kind of dumbfuck logic is that? Am I fucking country? Do I receive aid from anyone? Rhetorical questions, BJ.

Take away my history and my resources, and I'll still be alive in 6 months.

If the US takes Israels funding, IMO, they'd be invaded from all sides in less than a year with no means to fund their military (unless Shasta is right and the Russians swoop in to suddenly give a shit, but I highly doubt that and certainly not to the degree the US financially floats them thru existence).

You think they would survive. Pray tell, what about the nation-state of Israel, throughout its very long history, tells you BJ, that it would exist?

It wouldnt be the first time they have been crushed underfoot and erased from the area. They just so happened to be given the land back by the British.

It only took the oh-so-independant Jews 1800+ years to regain the land God promised them.

I can totally see the historical context you stand upon to make such bold claims. Thats sarcasm, BJ.


(you must be one helluva friend).

IDK, guess youd have to ask my friends.


Much of our welfare class have nothing to offer in return for what they get, and are basically receivers only. Should we disparage them and abandon them too, as you say we should Israel?

Are those welfare recipients US Citizens? Is Israel the 51st state?


And no, I'm not in the "business" of buying friends, but I help my friends out whenever they ask to the fullest extent of my abilities and resources.

Thats funny, so do I. Only the abilities and resources I use arent funded by the taxing of others. When I help friends, I need only ask myself. The money has no strings attached, no interest from any outsider and is completely mine and mine alone to give.

When I give aid of any sort, lobbyists arent needed around the clock to continue the flow of money. Special Interest groups arent required on a 24 hour cycle for fear of said aid being cut-off.

Also, my money doesnt go toward religiously fueled interests in a veiled attempt to keep the war machine turning.

Which is my comparing me to Israel is about the most asinine analogy I have ever read.

Funny it came from you, BJ, seeing as youre the smartest, most enlightened person you know. Small world, yeah?

[Extra Stout]

Israel never had a Vietnam to learn these lessons, aside from the disasterous but brief incursion into Lebannon in 2006.
The goal of an insurgent movement is to get the occupiers to give up and leave. In a war like Vietnam or Iraq, or even Lebanon, the occupier wants to leave anyway once the objectives are met. The occupation eventually ends. The key omission in treating the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as an insurgency like Vietnam, or Lebanon, or Iraq, is that all of Israel is considered occupied territory by the other side. The only way the occupation ever ends is if Israel ceases to exist.

[RandomGuy]

The goal of an insurgent movement is to get the occupiers to give up and leave. In a war like Vietnam or Iraq, or even Lebanon, the occupier wants to leave anyway once the objectives are met. The occupation eventually ends. The key omission in treating the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as an insurgency like Vietnam, or Lebanon, or Iraq, is that all of Israel is considered occupied territory by the other side. The only way the occupation ever ends is if Israel ceases to exist.

Yup.

Paradoxical ain't it?

That is partly why this is such an intractible conflict.

It isn't exactly like any past conflict, but I think many of the same principles apply, although at this point the Israelis have so damaged their position that one has to wonder if the situation can be salvaged in any case.

[sook]

Everything you ever wanted to know about Israel, but were afraid to ask. Thanks for the in depth education on what's going on in the State of Israel! (so you don't take that as a compliment, I'll let you know that it's well deserved sarcasm).
What a joke of an explanation for characterizing Israel as a pissant Country
Educate yourself on the Country, and quit rambling with silly, unfounded generalizations (if you don't want to put in much effort, start off with something simple, such as wikipedia), and you may not come across as being so ignorant.


More nonsense (surprise). Take away your history and your resources, and what exactly are you? I'll save you some time trying to formulate an educated answer to the question, and tell you that you would be nothing.





Again, you're definition of friendship is based on reciprocity, that is, if one Party has nothing to offer in the way of material substance, then they cannot and should not be a friend (you must be one helluva friend).

Much of our welfare class have nothing to offer in return for what they get, and are basically receivers only. Should we disparage them and abandon them too, as you say we should Israel?

And no, I'm not in the "business" of buying friends, but I help my friends out whenever they ask to the fullest extent of my abilities and resources.
lol! The stupidity in this post was beyond hilarity, you're comparing our welfare citizens to Israelis? Israel is an independent sovereign country you dumbfuck, the sooner you come to realize that the sooner you will come to see how wrong you have been proven in all you're posts.

Israel is an ally.
So is mexico, Canada, and many other countries in africa. The poverty in africa is beyond belief, so why don't we spend the money we give to Israel there? Wouldn't you agree its a better place for it? I'm sure mexico isn't in too great shape either, but why don't we do all that we do to Israel, to them? Answer me this please?
I'm guessing you haven't heard of the jewish lobby in washington. The conditions in our country aren't that good, the fact that we have adopted some communistic principles tells you just how well our economy is doing. I'd rather help out all the people who are getting their homes forclosed and do something about medicare and social security.


But all of that doesn't matter to you b.c you just want to see Israel with more nukes or f-16s

[romad_20]

Me: I was baptised Catholic, but I claim to be agnostic if anything at all."

Her: Oh, well I am Christian.

Me: Uhhhh, yeah, I was baptised Catholic.

Her: Right, Im Christian.

Me: Oooook, you do know Catholicism is also a Christian religion?

Her: *smirk* Not it isnt.

Me: This conversation is over.

So I think your insight on a southern baptist has merit, for what its worth. It would seem Catholics are despised the world over these days.

Big whoop.


Funny thing, I was talking to a lady I work with the other day and I said something like "you wouldn't do that because you're a good Christian girl." and she responded "No, I'm catholic." :lol

[DarkReign]

Funny thing, I was talking to a lady I work with the other day and I said something like "you wouldn't do that because you're a good Christian girl." and she responded "No, I'm catholic." :lol

:lol And here I almost took offense to a supposed Christian calling a Catholic something other than Christian. Just more evidence for me to stay away from the entire conversation....neither side gets it right, I guess.

[romad_20]

:lol And here I almost took offense to a supposed Christian calling a Catholic something other than Christian. Just more evidence for me to stay away from the entire conversation....neither side gets it right, I guess.

Exactly. I used to get all worked up about arguing over religion, but all it does is give me an ulcer.

[Winehole23]

Ha'aretz: Senior IDF officials back a cease-fire (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055476.html).

Related: Dissension (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055473.html) in the political ranks -- Olmert vs. Barak and Livni.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Because of the Holocaust and because of many other things.

You have a problem with that . . . ?

Blacks also have a special status (well deserved) because of the idiotic things whites have done to them.

Do you also have a problem with that too . . . ?

It's funny you make that comparison because that was the first thing that came to mind. It's almost analogous to what gtownspur would call "the Race Card"

[The Reckoning]

what is a Jew supposed to look like?

[sook]

Israel admits No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYhGYZxl-f8

[Shastafarian]

Israel admits No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYhGYZxl-f8

So 6 people building a tunnel into Israel is just harmless and should not be dealt with? That's what broke the ceasefire. Is it credible? I haven't heard Hamas deny it.

[sook]

So 6 people building a tunnel into Israel is just harmless and should not be dealt with? That's what broke the ceasefire. Is it credible? I haven't heard Hamas deny it.
You're absolutely right you sheep, 6 people warrants reeking havock in an entire city and killing 900 somewhat people, 250-330 being children.
ok, well whats your excuse for this?
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/15/israel-attacks-un-hq-in-gaza-with-white-phosphorus-shells/

The headquarters of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in the Gaza Strip was attacked today by Israeli artillery, sparking a fire which continues to burn. The compound was reportedly housing 700 civilian refugees and storehouses of increasingly scarce food aid at the time of the attack.

But perhaps even more pressing is the nature of the attack, which UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness said was hit with shells containing the incendiary agent white phosphorus. “What more stark symbolism do you need?” asked the spokesman. “You can’t put out white phosphorus with traditional methods such as fire extinguishers. You need sand. We don’t have sand.”

Though Gunness says Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak termed the attack “a grave mistake,” Prime Minister Ehud Olmert defended the attack, saying it made him sad but it was legitimate self defense. Israeli forces claimed the headquarters was being used by “militants” who were attacking the invading Israeli troops.

Israel has retroactively accused Hamas of being at the sites of several of their most serious incidents of attacking civilian targets, but has generally been light on evidence to back up those claims. In an attack on a United Nations girls’ school full of civilians last week, the Israeli military claimed to have video evidence, which later turned out to be a YouTube video over a year old from a different school in a different city. Israel has repeatedly revised their story on that attack since the incident.

The latest attack has sparked yet another international outcry against Israel for its now 20 day old war on the Gaza Strip. UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon declared the spiraling civilian death toll “unbearable,” while European Union Aid Commissioner Louis Michel was “deeply shocked and dismayed to learn of this incident.”

The use of white phosphorus as a weapon of war in civilian areas is banned under the Geneva Conventions’ Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, though Israel has repeatedly denied that it is doing so. Still, rising evidence is putting that story, like so many other official stories during this war, in serious doubt.

Below is a video from CNN covering the phosphorus fires at the compound.








So they bomb a UN compound and use that stupid excuse of it having militants again? Anytime they bomb some civilian compound its the same fuciking excuse, it turns out they already lied about white phosphorus

[Shastafarian]

You're absolutely right you sheep, 6 people warrants reeking havock in an entire city and killing 900 somewhat people, 250-330 being children.Um that's not how things happened. Think real hard about the chain of events and get back to me.

[sook]

Um that's not how things happened. Think real hard about the chain of events and get back to me.

Isreal "claims" there was being a tunnel dug, they bomb. Hamaas fires rockets, 900 people in gaza die.

You sure are great at proving how you are an ignorant dumbass aren't you?

And i don't believe it....you have an excuse for every act of terrorism Israel

carries out, yet you don't have one for my article, please, I'm in the mood to

hear some more bullshit come out of your mouth.
http://grins.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/sheep-human.jpg

[Shastafarian]

Isreal "claims" there was being a tunnel dug, they bomb. Hamaas fires rockets, 900 people in gaza die.

You sure are great at proving how you are an ignorant dumbass aren't you?

And i don't believe it....you have an excuse for every act of terrorism Israel

carries out, yet you don't have one for my article, please, I'm in the mood to

hear some more bullshit come out of your mouth.
http://grins.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/sheep-human.jpg

haha what is wrong with you? Your blood pressure must be through the roof.
http://www.itsnature.org/Ice/images/article-images/Collared_Lemming.jpg

[sook]

haha what is wrong with you? Your blood pressure must be through the roof.
http://www.itsnature.org/Ice/images/article-images/Collared_Lemming.jpg

Yet again, shastafarian dances around the question, but can't answer it. Nice try trying to act cool with a pic of your own, just didn't work buddy

[Shastafarian]

Yet again, shastafarian dances around the question, but can't answer it. Nice try trying to act cool with a pic of your own, just didn't work buddy

Why does it anger you that I didn't answer a question? Lay down on the couch and let it all out.

[sook]

Why does it anger you that I didn't answer a question? Lay down on the couch and let it all out.



someones cool:rolleyes

[temujin]

Yet again, shastafarian dances around the question, but can't answer it. Nice try trying to act cool with a pic of your own, just didn't work buddy

Shastafarian.

I've been to Israel twice and my brother lives there. I know at least 5 other people who currently live there. I still realize I don't know half of what's going on over there.


Take my advice.

Save time with the guy.

[Palkid]

We will not go down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlfhoU66s4Y&feature=related)
Michael Heart

[Homeland Security]

Shastafarian.

I've been to Israel twice and my brother lives there. I know at least 5 other people who currently live there. I still realize I don't know half of what's going on over there.

He's a fucking kike. He drinks the blood of Palestinian children.

[Shastafarian]

wtf

[Cant_Be_Faded]

roflroflroflrofl

[Shastafarian]

I don't see what's so funny.

[angel_luv]

http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104668&article=4877863


Israeli soldiers withdrew from the capital Sunday after a cease-fire was declared.
Tuesday, January 20, 2009


GAZA (UPI) - The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza picked up speed Monday, with plans calling for the pullout to be complete before Barack Obama is inaugurated, officials said.
Israeli soldiers withdrew from the capital Sunday after a cease-fire was declared. Hamas has begun to retake control of the region as Palestinians begin the process of coping with death and property destruction resulting from Israel's three-week military operation, The New York Times reported.

Israel said the strikes were in retaliation for rocket attacks from Gaza on Israeli territory.

Search and recovery crews have found more decomposing bodies and the Palestinian death toll has gone past 1,300, health officials told the newspaper.

At a news conference in front of a bombed-out compound that had been headquarters for several government ministries, officials claimed Hamas won the conflict with Israel.

"Israel has succeeded in killing everything except the will of the people," government spokesman Taher al-Nunu said. "They said they were going to dismantle the resistance and demolish the rockets, but after this historic victory, the government is steadfast, we are working and they were not able to stop the rockets."

The spokesman said air and artillery strikes destroyed 5,000 homes and damaged another 20,000.

[Phenomanul]

What I find funny, or is it scary, or even pathetic...

Liberals don't want the USA anywhere in the region because "We are there for Oil" yet the one country over there that has no oil, we aren't suppose to give a shit about?

Large reserves of oil will be discovered under Israel on its north western coast.

Book it.

[Phenomanul]

Kiss my ass, troll. Follow someone else around.

Israel IS a piss-ant country. How about you take your religious blinders off for half a second and look at the situation from a secular persepective for once in your life of God.

You dont think it is? Thats fine, BJ. As someone else says on this forum, we trade in opinions. My opinion says Israel doesnt mean shit to the US. Your opinion says otherwise. That doesnt make you right, that gives you an opinion.



What kind of dumbfuck logic is that? Am I fucking country? Do I receive aid from anyone? Rhetorical questions, BJ.

Take away my history and my resources, and I'll still be alive in 6 months.

If the US takes Israels funding, IMO, they'd be invaded from all sides in less than a year with no means to fund their military (unless Shasta is right and the Russians swoop in to suddenly give a shit, but I highly doubt that and certainly not to the degree the US financially floats them thru existence).

You think they would survive. Pray tell, what about the nation-state of Israel, throughout its very long history, tells you BJ, that it would exist?

It wouldnt be the first time they have been crushed underfoot and erased from the area. They just so happened to be given the land back by the British.

It only took the oh-so-independant Jews 1800+ years to regain the land God promised them.

I can totally see the historical context you stand upon to make such bold claims. Thats sarcasm, BJ.



IDK, guess youd have to ask my friends.



Are those welfare recipients US Citizens? Is Israel the 51st state?



Thats funny, so do I. Only the abilities and resources I use arent funded by the taxing of others. When I help friends, I need only ask myself. The money has no strings attached, no interest from any outsider and is completely mine and mine alone to give.

When I give aid of any sort, lobbyists arent needed around the clock to continue the flow of money. Special Interest groups arent required on a 24 hour cycle for fear of said aid being cut-off.

Also, my money doesnt go toward religiously fueled interests in a veiled attempt to keep the war machine turning.

Which is my comparing me to Israel is about the most asinine analogy I have ever read.

Funny it came from you, BJ, seeing as youre the smartest, most enlightened person you know. Small world, yeah?

Jews disproportionally attain Nobel Prizes year after year... how can one claim they offer nothing positive to the world?

[sook]

so wtf did Israel achieve, i know they weren't stupid enough to think they could achieve anything militarily after lebanon....

This proved my point exactly, they didn't stop the rockets being fired all they wanted was to show they are still the most powerful country in the region by killing so many civilians. The death toll is at 1300 at rising as they uncover decomposing bodies from the rubble. The palest. are rallying behind Hamaas more than ever before.

[DarkReign]

Jews disproportionally attain Nobel Peace Prizes year after year... how can one claim they offer nothing positive to the world?

FIFY.

[Phenomanul]

FIFY.

That would also include biology, chemistry, medicine, physics.... the list goes on and on...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Jews disproportionally attain Nobel Prizes year after year... how can one claim they offer nothing positive to the world?

Yeah and they disproportionally attain much of the world's wealth year after year too.........

[Cry Havoc]

Israeli troops have completed their withdrawal from Gaza, the Israel Defense Forces say.

Breaking news on CNN.com

[Winehole23]

Remember how the 2006 invasion of Lebanon went? It could turn out something like that. Moderates marginalized, civilians killed, Hamas still in power, no clear victory for Israel.Gainsay?

[DarkReign]

That would also include biology, chemistry, medicine, physics.... the list goes on and on...

I never said they offer "nothing to the world", I said they offer nothing to the United States.

And I am not talking about scientific progress because I sincerely doubt our ~$60 billion a year is going toward research grants and education.

No, they use our money for national defense and the import of the goods they cant produce themselves.

To say because they are educated and smart is the reason to prop them up is ludicrous. So are a lot of countries, but the others dont have such a precarious position on the globe. Thats the only difference.

[Shastafarian]

Yeah and they disproportionally attain much of the world's wealth year after year too.........

You are such an idiot.

[sook]

they gained nothing from this...it hurts so bad to know i was right about this conflict from the beginning

[The Reckoning]

i wonder what the armenians have to say about this.

wait...who the hell are they?

[DarkReign]

i wonder what the armenians have to say about this.

wait...who the hell are they?

Skinny, Anglo smokers is my guess.

[The Reckoning]

:lmao

[DarkReign]

:tu

[sook]

http://rsrc4.bubbleshare.com/media/00/14/b3/6b/564449af4cff30a70f3c9a74d1021ada/580x435/aa-98_580x435.jpg

Israel needs to defend itself. Ignominy.


Its ok to you guys though, because whats a dead palest. kid anyways?

[Winehole23]

An obvious terrorist. He was asking for it.

[Shastafarian]

Its ok to you guys though, because whats a dead palest. kid anyways?
A good start?


I kid, I kid.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Isn't it funny that genocide is the only real solution to Israel's "problem"?

Isn't it funnier that they've been slowly torturing and abusing this gigantic zoo of innocent people for years, thereby increasing the numbers that will turn radical militant, all the time knowing that this will never solve their "problem" ?

Isn't it funny that everyone in the know called for a complete return to the status quo when this shit would be over and that is exactly what is developing?

If Israel had any fucking balls they'd have stuck around and done even more damage. The precise timeliness of their withdrawal was sickeningly predictable.

[TDMVPDPOY]

If Israel had any fucking balls they'd have stuck around and done even more damage. The precise timeliness of their withdrawal was sickeningly predictable.

im sure bushs resignation and obamas new presidency has something to do with this.......

[Cant_Be_Faded]

im sure bushs resignation and obamas new presidency has something to do with this.......

Really? How insightful.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Really? How insightful.

cause bush wont give a shit, so israel continues to do what it wants cause big brother dont give a shit....

then obama comes in with different views

[Winehole23]

If Israel had any fucking balls they'd have stuck around and done even more damage. The precise timeliness of their withdrawal was sickeningly predictable.In Ha'aretz it's been suggested the IDF was well aware of the strategic limits of ruthlessness, and started to get cold feet.

If the end of the operation was fortuitously timed to coincide with the inauguration of Obama, the beginning was also politically timed to boost the fortunes of Tzipi Livni and Labor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Party_%28Israel%29). It didn't work. Avigdor Lieberman (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070101/lynfield) and Benyamin Netanyahu (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2393677.stm) get the love for now, and the edge going into the elections.

If Israel actually had tried to take out every Hamas fighter, the toll among non-combatants would've been exponentially worse. The price of creaming Hamas was losing Gaza forever -- to say nothing of the decent opinion of mankind -- and the IDF wasn't willing to do it. Nevertheless, Olmert and Livni will pay the political price for not 86ing Hamas, and their successors will be even less solicitous of Palestinian bystanders.

Interesting times.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It's funny because if Netanyahu gets back in power he's going to bomb the shit out of gaza even more, with the same questionable results.

[Winehole23]

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/1114/For-Israel-costs-and-benefits-of-striking-Gaza/%28page%29/2

[SA210]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/29384_442005615863046_820600653_n.jpg

[SA210]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/263559_10151337666481995_1980452360_n.jpg

[SA210]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/643957_10151249451969028_960498453_n.jpg

[SA210]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/29384_442005615863046_820600653_n.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/306843_444572605610719_1815089439_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402552_444563605611619_196067897_n.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/263559_10151337666481995_1980452360_n.jpg
Their country, their laws.

Do you by chance have the transcript proving what is claimed, or are they words just added to the picture?

[ChumpDumper]

Their country, their laws.Which law would allow that?

[MannyIsGod]

The trolling is so obvious.

[Winehole23]

in fairness, SA210 tried being an ordinary poster, but that didn't go too well for him.

[Winehole23]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121115

[ChumpDumper]

Now they've done it.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gaza-baby-killed-photo-163958315.html

[SA210]

America is ok with this. This is terrible.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgl0JnE4B_4

[Winehole23]

Israel said the offensive was an attempt to halt rocket fire from inside Gaza, which had escalated last weekend (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israel-shells-syrian-artillery-battery-after-2nd-mortar-lands-near-golan-army-post/2012/11/12/cd8717ea-2cde-11e2-9ac2-1c61452669c3_story.html). But the air strikes instead triggered new waves of rocket launches, which rained down on towns and villages in southern Israel Wednesday night and Thursday.


One struck a direct hit on the top floor of a four-story apartment building in this modest town near Ashkelon. Two men and one woman were killed, Israeli officials said, and an 11-month-old baby was critically injured. Three Israeli soldiers also were wounded in rocket attacks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/3-israelis-killed-in-rocket-strike-from-gaza-intensive-israeli-assault-leaves-13-palestinians-dead/2012/11/15/22023084-2f1e-11e2-ac4a-33b8b41fb531_story.html

[LnGrrrR]

SA, when you say "America" is ok with this, how exactly do you mean that? The President? The population at large? And what do you think America should do instead?

[boutons_deux]

If Egypt stops sealing the border with Israel, ouch

[SA210]

SA, when you say "America" is ok with this, how exactly do you mean that? The President? The population at large? And what do you think America should do instead?


America as in the Government who gives Israel billions of dollars, American government and Obama which in my opinion will sooner or later bomb Iran at the request of Israel, the corrupt media for purposely not covering this, and much of the ignorant public, for not knowing better than to look for alternative news sources and for those that are ignorant to believe that it's just collateral damage and trust that it's all for the better.

Mostly, the government and the President. Stop backing Israel and it's evil wars. Stop our own illegal wars. The public needs to wake the f up and take responsibility for allowing and choosing Politicians to commit these crimes, and blame themselves for remaining brainwashed and believing in this fake Patriotism of pro war.

[LnGrrrR]

SA, I'd also be fine with letting Israel fight its own battles. Though I don't think that would decrease the amount of dead children, in any case.

[ChumpDumper]

Dead babies are all over the mainstream media tbh.

[SA210]

Seriously..

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/536639_445007168900596_1258105977_n.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Seriously..

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/536639_445007168900596_1258105977_n.jpgRockets form Iran hit Israel quite a bit.

And frankly I'm tired of that mask.

[SA210]

More "collateral damage" in Gaza

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/302756_445026362232010_1410286273_n.jpg

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Here are some pictures of dead kids I feel bad for!

[SA210]

Here are some pictures of dead kids I feel bad for!


http://stafford.northhigh.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/133871/Image/Giant%20Bonus%20Bucks.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

You guys need to stop blaming Israel for the human shields that the terrorists use. How do you expect Israel to respond? Do nothing?

Hamas missile launch pad near mosque, playground (http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/photo-hamas-missile-launch-pad-near-mosque-playground/)

How many families and children walk past this launch site?

http://www.wnd.com/files/2012/11/Playground1.jpg

[DarrinS]

Appears that Hamas firing missiles on Israel is counterproductive.

[ChumpDumper]

Appears that Hamas firing missiles on Israel is counterproductive.But Israel's killing babies of news correspondents -- that's productive!

[DarrinS]

But Israel's killing babies of news correspondents -- that's productive!

A teachable moment: Don't fire missles at Israel

[SA210]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/598630_445032412231405_2085595559_n.jpg

[SA210]

A teachable moment: Don't fire missles at Israel


Dammit! Why didn't these kids know any better?





http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/302756_445026362232010_1410286273_n.jpg

[SA210]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/598630_445032412231405_2085595559_n.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/28751_444756725592307_2071707062_n.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah because bombing Gaza, Lebanon, and the West Bank has fucking worked SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO well for Israel, Darrin. If you had half a brain you'd apply your logic both ways. We're only funding one side though.

[DarrinS]

Yeah because bombing Gaza, Lebanon, and the West Bank has fucking worked SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO well for Israel, Darrin. If you had half a brain you'd apply your logic both ways. We're only funding one side though.

Are those preemptive or retaliatory?

[GoodOdor]

Israel's response has been over the top, but what can they realistically do to stop the Palis from lobbying rockets?

[ChumpDumper]

Are those preemptive or retaliatory?
You tell me.

And please cover all of Israel's actions since its formation.

Thanks.

[TDMVPDPOY]

You guys need to stop blaming Israel for the human shields that the terrorists use. How do you expect Israel to respond? Do nothing?

Hamas missile launch pad near mosque, playground (http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/photo-hamas-missile-launch-pad-near-mosque-playground/)

How many families and children walk past this launch site?

http://www.wnd.com/files/2012/11/Playground1.jpg

u tellin me israels elite forces cant carry out operative missions to go in and get their target, but rely on randomly firing missiles into palenstine? so whats the difference between them and the palestine? lol double standards playin the innocent card....

everything seems like all cool b4 the hamas leader was killed, now israel carrys out the first attack killing the hamas leader, all hamas is doing is responding, what do you expect them to do?



ps.

israel has SAMS, so whats stopping them from deploying and using them to shoot down incoming projectiles in gaza, west bank or whatever non jew settlement?? seems like they allowed it to land so they have an excuse to carry out their own shit

[MannyIsGod]

Are those preemptive or retaliatory?

Chicken or the egg?

[DarrinS]

u tellin me israels elite forces cant carry out operative missions to go in and get their target, but rely on randomly firing missiles into palenstine? so whats the difference between them and the palestine? lol double standards playin the innocent card....

everything seems like all cool b4 the hamas leader was killed, now israel carrys out the first attack killing the hamas leader, all hamas is doing is responding, what do you expect them to do?



ps.

israel has SAMS, so whats stopping them from deploying and using them to shoot down incoming projectiles in gaza, west bank or whatever non jew settlement?? seems like they allowed it to land so they have an excuse to carry out their own shit

Uh, they have Iron Dome and it works pretty well.

And they don't fire randomly into Palestine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9681241/Iron-Dome-shield-restricts-Israeli-casualties.html


Appears they shot down 90 out of 250 missiles.

[ChumpDumper]

And they don't fire randomly into Palestine.They're targeting babies?

That's cold.

[DarrinS]

They're targeting babies?

That's cold.

Yeah, that's what they're doing. :rolleyes

[Drachen]

They're targeting babies?

That's cold.

His mom said that he would always be her baby.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, that's what they're doing. :rolleyesWell they sure got some.

[Wild Cobra]

Israel's response has been over the top, but what can they realistically do to stop the Palis from lobbying rockets?
Over the top?

They are hitting military equipment.

[Wild Cobra]

u tellin me israels elite forces cant carry out operative missions to go in and get their target, but rely on randomly firing missiles into palenstine?

How many families and children walk past this launch site?

[Wild Cobra]

They're targeting babies?

That's cold.
Idiot.

They are targeting missile sites that people walk past every day.

[clambake]

they should just stand toe to toe against tanks.

[DarrinS]

they should just stand toe to toe against tanks.


They shouldn't fire 200+ rockets into Israel and expect no response.

[ChumpDumper]

Idiot.

They are targeting missile sites that people walk past every day.Don't get mad because they are killing babies.

Actually, maybe you should get mad.

[clambake]

They shouldn't fire 200+ rockets into Israel and expect no response.

they shouldn't keep bulldozing homes and lives if they expect it to stop.

[DarrinS]

Now firing at Jerusalem.

[DarrinS]

Don't get mad because they are killing babies.

Actually, maybe you should get mad.


You don't get mad when our drones hit babies.


One side INTENTIONALLY fires on civilians.

[ChumpDumper]

Israel should have just gotten their ethnic cleansing out of the way early and quickly instead of this slow motion crap they try and fail to run under the radar. Most people don't know or forgot it happened with India/Pakistan.

[DarrinS]

Israel should have just gotten their ethnic cleansing out of the way early and quickly instead of this slow motion crap they try and fail to run under the radar. Most people don't know or forgot it happened with India/Pakistan.


You and SA210 are on the same page -- I get it.

[ChumpDumper]

You don't get mad when our drones hit babies.I don't?



One side INTENTIONALLY fires on civilians.One side intentionally runs bulldozers over civilians. Result is the same tbh.

[ChumpDumper]

You and SA210 are on the same page -- I get it.I just don't automatically bend over for Israel for no good reason like you do.

[ChumpDumper]

And I wouldn't say calling for Israel to accelerate its ethnic cleansing program is exactly what SA210 thinks.

I don't see their really wanting anything else, so get on with it -- without billions of dollars of handouts from us.

[DarrinS]

And I wouldn't say calling for Israel to accelerate its ethnic cleansing program is exactly what SA210 thinks.

I don't see their really wanting anything else, so get on with it -- without billions of dollars of handouts from us.


Man, you must be reading from Nbadan's favorite blogs.

[ChumpDumper]

Man, you must be reading from Nbadan's favorite blogs.What do you think is Israel's end game given its settlement policies and ghettoization of the West Bank and Gaza?

Explain.

[Halberto]

I like french fries.

[MannyIsGod]

They shouldn't fire 200+ rockets into Israel and expect no response.

You do realize Israel instigated this latest round of violence, right?

[SA210]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/407595_554024361290103_2013065263_n.jpg

[TeyshaBlue]

I like french fries.

I like cheese.

[SA210]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/423096_481718185184497_95255177_n.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Man, you must be reading from Nbadan's favorite blogs.

The only way you can really not be a little horrified at what Israel has done over the last 50 years is to not know about it.

Have you ever looked at what they have been doing in any detail?

[RandomGuy]

Roughly about 500 villages were abandoned in and around 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during _the_1948_Palestinian_exodus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Deir_Yassin




It is difficult to overestimate the tremendous role this lot of abandoned Arab property has played in the settlement of hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants who have reached Israel since the proclamation of the state in May 1948. Forty-seven new rural settlements established on the sites of abandoned Arab villages had by October 1949 already absorbed 25,255 new immigrants. By the spring of 1950 over 1 million dunams had been leased by the custodian to Jewish settlements and individual farmers for the raising of grain crops.

Large tracts of land belonging to Arab absentees have also been leased to Jewish settlers, old and new, for the raising of vegetables. In the south alone, 15,000 dunams of vineyards and fruit trees have been leased to cooperative settlements; a similar area has been rented by the Yemenites Association, the Farmers Association, and the Soldiers Settlement and Rehabilitation Board. This has saved the Jewish Agency and the government millions of dollars. While the average cost of establishing an immigrant family in a new settlement was from $7,500 to $9,000, the cost in abandoned Arab villages did not exceed $1,500 ($750 for building repairs and $750 for livestock and equipment).

Abandoned Arab dwellings in towns have also not remained empty. By the end of July 1948, 170,000 people, notably new immigrants and ex-soldiers, in addition to about 40,000 former tenants, both Jewish and Arab, had been housed in premises under the custodian's control; and 7,000 shops, workshops and stores were sublet to new arrivals. The existence of these Arab houses-vacant and ready for occupation-has, to a large extent, solved the greatest immediate problem which faced the Israeli authorities in the absorption of immigrants. It also considerably relieved the financial burden of absorption.[25]

How much of Israel's territory consists of land confiscated with the Absentee Property Law is uncertain and much disputed. Robert Fisk interviewed the Israeli Custodian of Absentee Property, who estimates this could amount to up to 70% of the territory of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip:

The Custodian of Absentee Property does not choose to discuss politics. But when asked how much of the land of the state of Israel might potentially have two claimants — an Arab and a Jew holding respectively a British Mandate and an Israeli deed to the same property — Mr. Manor [the Custodian in 1980] believes that 'about 70 percent' might fall into that category (Robert Fisk, 'The Land of Palestine, Part Eight: The Custodian of Absentee Property', The Times, December 24, 1980, quoted in his book Pity the Nation: Lebanon at War).

The Jewish Virtual Library, estimates that Custodial and Absentee land comprises 12% of Israel's total territory.[26]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_and_Property_laws_in_Israel#The_.27Absentees_ Property_Law.27


Lot of people fled the fighting, Israel locked them out and grabbed their land. By the time the refugees tried to return it was a fait accompli.

To be sure a lot of the history is somewhat murky and there is no shortage of conflicting accounts, but you can get a generally good picture of a country that is not quite the choir boy some seem to think it is.

[AussieFanKurt]

Why do Hamas bother, do they know they have no chance of winning a war against Israel... this will be over very quick

[Wild Cobra]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/423096_481718185184497_95255177_n.jpg
You would think that Hamas would learn, but no. The buy missiles, shoot them off, agree to cease fires again when they run out, and buy more and start over.

I feel for the innocent who get caught up in this, but if you want this to stop, you have to stop the terrorists. Not Israel.

And the caption is a lie. You need to start reading the truth. That may have been a homemade rocket, but they are buying real ones.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, terror bombings helped Israel get a homeland. Whatever.

[clambake]

You need to start reading the truth.

go ahead. (this should be good) enlighten us.

[clambake]

times up

[Wild Cobra]

go ahead. (this should be good) enlighten us.
I explained it. It doesn't surprise me at all you missed my point, so I'm feeling kind of dumb responding to you. I may need to take a vacation from SpursTalk. I feel my IQ going down talking with people like you.

[Bill_Brasky]

Israel is the biggest example of irony on the planet.

[Wild Cobra]

Israel is the biggest example of irony on the planet.
Why do you say that?

Are you suggesting they have no right to protect themselves?

If not how they are, then what is your solution?

[LnGrrrR]

WC, I don't think anyone is saying Israel doesn't have the right to protect themselves. They're saying that Israel's response isn't helping long-term with the problem.

[Wild Cobra]

WC, I don't think anyone is saying Israel doesn't have the right to protect themselves. They're saying that Israel's response isn't helping long-term with the problem.
We are the worse problem. We curtail Israel from putting an end to this once and for all. The people attacking Israel only understand strength. They laugh at our diplomatic approach. They play the game, and when they run out of arms, agree to the long fought peace agreements we come up with, and we keep Israel from spanking putting an end to it. Then, they rearm, and attack again.

Haven't you noticed this repeated cycle?

[ChumpDumper]

We are the worse problem. We curtail Israel from putting an end to this once and for all. The people attacking Israel only understand strength. They laugh at our diplomatic approach. They play the game, and when they run out of arms, agree to the long fought peace agreements we come up with, and we keep Israel from spanking putting an end to it. Then, they rearm, and attack again.

Haven't you noticed this repeated cycle?Israel can do whatever they want. What would we do to stop them?

[LnGrrrR]

If Israel were to wipe out Gaza, then what?

[Wild Cobra]

If Israel were to wipe out Gaza, then what?
I don't assume they would do that. Why do you?

[Cry Havoc]

They laugh at our diplomatic approach.

No, they laugh at Israel's thought that killing their children and civilians will somehow put an end to the anti-Israel sentiment. Bombing them into peace is like beating a child into kindness (of course there are people here at ST who think beating children is good discipline, so perhaps that's not the best metaphor).

[Wild Cobra]

No, they laugh at Israel's thought that killing their children and civilians will somehow put an end to the anti-Israel sentiment. Bombing them into peace is like beating a child into kindness (of course there are people here at ST who think beating children is good discipline, so perhaps that's not the best metaphor).
So what is your solution?

[Cry Havoc]

So what is your solution?

If I had the solution to the Israel - Palestine situation, I would be much higher in the US government. Probably at the top since obviously our officials haven't been able to fix it through all these years. I would never claim to be that wise. :lol

But do continue to presume that foreign policy is so simple that you need just wave your hand and invade a country and POOF. Peace and democracy for all.

[ChumpDumper]

So what is your solution?Israel can always try genocide.

[Wild Cobra]

If I had the solution to the Israel - Palestine situation, I would be much higher in the US government. Probably at the top since obviously our officials haven't been able to fix it through all these years. I would never claim to be that wise. :lol

But do continue to presume that foreign policy is so simple that you need just wave your hand and invade a country and POOF. Peace and democracy for all.
I see your best solution is turning to the media, that gets money by sensationalizing everything. Not understanding the truth.

Israel is not targeting children. They are targeting primarily weapon sites. The terrorists know by placing these sites near innocent people, they get sympathy by ignorant asses like yourself. Stop falling for their game, wake up, and realize that there is no clean way on war.

[Cry Havoc]

I see your best solution is turning to the media, that gets money by sensationalizing everything. Not understanding the truth.

Lmfao. I say, "You know what? I don't know the solution."

WC's response: "Your solution of using the media is ignorant blah blah etc blah."

If you aren't even going to read what I type, why bother?

[Wild Cobra]

Lmfao. I say, "You know what? I don't know the solution."

WC's response: "Your solution of using the media is ignorant blah blah etc blah."

If you aren't even going to read what I type, why bother?
I admit to some degree of artistic assumption there. That however is because you complain without having a concept of the reality.

[Cry Havoc]

artistic assumption. you complain without having a concept of the reality.

:lmao

I can see it's still absolutely pointless to ever try to engage you in any sort of intellectual debate. Not much changes.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

I can see it's still absolutely pointless to ever try to engage you in any sort of intellectual debate. Not much changes.
Try saying something intelligent then.

[Cry Havoc]

Try saying something intelligent then.

Like "artistic assumption"? :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Wild Cobra]

You talk about intelligent conversation, and say stupid shit like this:

No, they laugh at Israel's thought that killing their children and civilians will somehow put an end to the anti-Israel sentiment. Bombing them into peace is like beating a child into kindness (of course there are people here at ST who think beating children is good discipline, so perhaps that's not the best metaphor).
And then expect a serious response?

Are you really that stupid?

[Jacob1983]

Israel vs Palestine is like the Heat vs a D-League team.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't assume they would do that. Why do you?

Ok, well tell us what you meant by "putting an end to this once and for all". How do you think Israel should do this?

[Cry Havoc]

You talk about intelligent conversation, and say stupid shit like this:

And then expect a serious response?

Are you really that stupid?

:lmao

Glass houses, WC. You've repeatedly proven yourself to be completely incapable of rational thought on these boards, so an insult from you is a testament to the fact that I am actively using my brain. :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Ok, well tell us what you meant by "putting an end to this once and for all". How do you think Israel should do this?
I'm not positive of the degree it would take, but would you disagree that US and world pressure prevents them, diplomatically and in the media, from doing any meaningful elimination of the aggressors?

We need to let Israel target all the military installations they want without interference. We need to stop posing pictures of a kid killed because he was walking past a military installation that was bombed. We need to tell people it is the Terrorists placement of these facilities that kills children. Not Israel. We need to let Israel do what ever they feel is necessary to protect their borders. We don't do that. We interfere. If you believe Israel wants to wipe out their neighbors, you are flat out wrong. I'm sure there are some individuals who do, but that's the the majority.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

Glass houses, WC. You've repeatedly proven yourself to be completely incapable of rational thought on these boards, so an insult from you is a testament to the fact that I am actively using my brain. :lol
Proven?

LOL...

That's a matter of opinion, and yours most certainly isn't important.

Especially with that hideous avatar you use.