Two Straight!(Talks about Nazr)

[whottt]

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/41408.htm

TWO STRAIGHT!

By MARC BERMAN



February 27, 2005 -- Malik Rose made more hustle plays in his nine-minute stint of the second quarter last night than departed center Nazr Mohammed did the whole season.
Rose's presence has already been felt, adding grit to a Knick team that had lacked toughness. When the Knicks took over the game, in the second quarter, the only quarter Rose played, the 6-foot-6 power forward led the charge with his spirit and eight rebounds in nine minutes.

The Knicks built a 47-37 halftime lead by holding Indiana to 13 points in the second quarter on the way to an impressive, defensive-minded 90-79 victory at the sold-out Garden.

The Knicks are 2-0 since Thursday's trades that were panned despite the Knicks getting better for the present, and for the future with two first-round picks.

Isiah Thomas doesn't look like such a dunce today, as he's started to dig himself out of the mistakes he made when he added the limited, defense-poor Mohammed and the shot Vin Baker.

"It's the kind of energy you can expect to see from me," said Rose, making his Knick debut and adding two points, coming on a putback.

"He's a live body," coach Herb Williams said.



Williams did not use Rose in the second half, explaining he wanted to get a look-see at their other newcomer, Maurice Taylor, less active in his five second-half minutes.

Taylor banged in his first shot as a Knick, a 14-foot face-up jumper, but looked lost. Neither player has undergone a full practice.

The Knicks (23-33) have now won four of their last six and have their first winning streak since December. It's still not enough to make a serious playoff run, as they still trail the Atlantic Division by 51/2 games. But at least they are looking like a team again.

Rose, the 30-year-old veteran, adds the knowledge of what makes a championship team, having played on two in San Antonio. He has 80 playoff games of experience, most on the team. He rebounds, defends, hustles and has quick, good hands, unlike Mohammed, who had hands of stone and was an inactive defender.

Rose said winning is not about talent, which the Knicks have despite their awful record.

"In basketball, you can have a great team on paper, but it's different than having a great team on the court," Rose said at yesterday's morning shoot-around.

"[San Antonio] may not have had a lot of talent. On paper we probably were the fifth, sixth team in the conference but when you go out there and you play with what's inside your shirt and head, it could make a world of difference."

The Knicks are jacked up by the shakeup. Kurt Thomas, now the center after being spared at the trade deadline, is playing beautifully, his jumper money. Thomas added 16 points and a team-high nine rebounds. Rose's eight was second on the club.

On Rose's first defensive possession, he knocked the ball away from Jermaine O'Neal from behind and collected the ball off the glass. Two possessions later, Rose grabbed a rebound and started a fastbreak that went from Penny Hardaway-to-Jamal Crawford (17 points) for a layup. Stephon Marbury drove hard all night and finished with 21 points,

Rose's only points came on a tough rebound in which he laid it home in traffic. "I needed that," Rose said. "I was a little nervous out there."

Rose also pulled out the chair on O'Neal, a phrase used for stepping away as the offensive player backs you in. O'Neal fell to the court. "It's the 6-6 trick play against a superstar," Rose said.

[whottt]

made more hustle plays in his nine-minute stint of the second quarter last night than departed center Nazr Mohammed did the whole season.


limited, defense-poor Mohammed

was an inactive defender


Fuck me

[Brodels]

has quick, good hands, unlike Mohammed, who had hands of stone and was an inactive defender.

I think it's a good article, but I have to take exception with this. Give me a friggin' break. For all of Malik's strengths, 'good hands' is absolutely not among them. People have used the 'hands of stone' bit to describe Malik for years.

[whottt]

I agree...Malik had his good hands nights with the Spurs and last night was one of them for the Knicks...he can have horrible nights with his hands. And he had a good night on his pump fake also..


But you need to look at what they are saying about Mohammed...and contrast it with Malik...

Apart from the good hands thing...the rest of the stuff is the same Malik we know...

What if that is the Mohammed they know...

That makes this a bad fucking trade.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:lmao

How can you put any stock in article that says this about Rose?


Rose, the 30-year-old veteran, adds the knowledge of what makes a championship team, having played on two in San Antonio. He has 80 playoff games of experience, most on the team. He rebounds, defends, hustles and has quick, good hands,....

And I'd love to hear his explanation of how a defensively inactive guy like Mohammed comes up with eight blocks in a game.

[davi78239]

damn! I know nazir isn't that bad. He better not be!!

[whottt]

:lmao

How can you put any stock in article that says this about Rose?



And I'd love to hear his explanation of how a defensively inactive guy like Mohammed comes up with eight blocks in a game.


The Knicks fans are laughing at us for thinking he's a shotblocker as much as we are laughing at them for thinking Malik has good hands...

Bottom line...they are not familiar with the bad part of Malik's game...but they are familiar with the bad parts of Mohammed's...

Look, I am pissed about this trade...I think it was a stupid trade to make at this point of the season...

But I am looking like a motherfucker for some tangible evidence that Mohammed is going to improve this team...and I aint finding it.

The NY Media is fucking roasting Isiah...they want his ass run out of town...they want this guy fired...

So why are even they saying Malik is more to their team than Mohammed was...

And don't give me this shit that Duncan makes bigmen put up better numbers...the next bigman he makes better will be the fucking first....and the next guy that Pop is able to turn from passive to intense will also be the first.

He didn't help Drob's numbers...he didn't help Rasho's numbers...he hasn't helped Horry's numbers...And guess what...Malik's best games also came without Duncan and Robinson.

[whottt]

And I'll tell you what is really giving me the butt clench right about now...

These motherfuckers thought Charlie Ward was a good defender...and even they think Mohammed is an unintense defensive player...

AHF, if none of this stuff is sounds alarming to you then I have way underestimated your hatred of Malik...

[Supergirl]

And don't give me this shit that Duncan makes bigmen put up better numbers...the next bigman he makes better will be the fucking first....and the next guy that Pop is able to turn from passive to intense will also be the first.

He didn't help Drob's numbers...he didn't help Rasho's numbers...he hasn't helped Horry's numbers...And guess what...Malik's best games also came without Duncan and Robinson.

Um, Tim Duncan most CERTAINLY made DRob better. How many titles did DRob win before Tim came along?

[whottt]

Um, Tim Duncan most CERTAINLY made DRob better. How many titles did DRob win before Tim came along?


3

Scoring title, rebounding title, and a blocked shots title...how many did he win after Duncan came to the team?

And if you noticed...I said "numbers"...I suggest you apply your superpowers to reading...sweetie.

[whottt]

And by the way...how many titles has Duncan won without DRob?

[BronxCowboy]

Well, to be a bit more optimistic, Rasho has become a better defender since he joined the Spurs, IMO, so maybe Nazr will too. I agree that he isn't very good on defense right now, and we would be better off with Malik, but Nazr is a very good rebounder and if he can learn to defend he can be good back up C. But never a shot-blocker. :lol Who actually thought he was?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Hey Whott why don't you wait until the guy plays some games, then make your judgment huh? You may find him a little more motivated than before now that he's on a championship contender.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Seriously though, why are you putting so much stock in what some dork ass homer writer for the Knicks says? It's NY, media capital of the world. They're going to spin Malik as the best thing that could happen to the Knicks outside of Jordan in his prime somehow showing up, and they're going to badmouth the guy who just left to make it look like they got the better end of the deal.

Why aren't you finding evidence he'll improve? Just because some hack is spinning the trade up on the East Coast? WTF?

You seem to be so fucking in love with Rose, answer me this? What the fuck was Rose before Pop developed him? He was a fucking scrub. And now he's a guy you're going postal over losing out on his 20 DNP-CDs that he got this year.

Pop built up your boy Rose, what makes you think he can't do the same with Nazr?

As for "numbers", Nazr is already averaging more than Rasho. Dave and Horry were/are both in the twilight of their careers when working with Pop, they were hardly projects/unfulfilled potential.

You want to know about work ethic? When Mohammed got to Kentucky he was well over 300 pounds. Think out of weight Shaq. But he got to Kentucky under Pitino (a guy who I think knows a thing or two about coaching hoops, at least at the college level), and busted his ass to get down to a suitable playing weight.

His junior year he anchored the post and led Kentucky to a national championship. Yeah, sure sounds like a soft scrub with bad hands and no potential to me.

Here's Nazr's draft assessment.

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1998_draft/Players/mohammed.htm


What's to like about Mohammed? Many things. For one, the work ethic must be mentioned. Coming out of HS, Mohammed was vastly overweight (350 pounds it was rumored) and was pretty much unknown on the recruiting scene. But since that time, Mohammed has slimmed down to around 270 lbs, and has worked very hard on his game. Offensively, Mohammed is solid down low. He has a few post moves -- most notably a soft jump-hook. Late in the season, he even started showing off a fadeaway turnaround shot that was pretty effective. What might be Mohammed's strongest point are his hands. You throw it to him and you're pretty much guaranteed he's going to catch it. Defensively, Mohammed gets good position and gets his share of blocks. By simply being big, he's able to get rebounding position and body out his defender. In general, Mohammed has a terrific attitude -- his work ethic to improve his game and his treatment of coming off the bench early in the season are testaments to it.

I looked at his career turnover stats for indication of "bad hands", he's averaging a career 1.1 per game.

For comparison, you've got

Rose 1.4
Horry 1.35
Duncan 3.99
Rasho 1.09

Also from Nazr's bio:

Ranks #18 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage(0.509)
Ranks #10 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds(169.0)
Ranks #11 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per Game(3.1)
Ranks #10 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(5.3)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(13.9)

And if you want to look at Rose vs. Nazr on defense:

Nazr has four seasons with more than 50 blocks, Rose has ONE. So spare me all this "he can't play D either" shit that all of a sudden is unfortunately emanating from the Rose Rules/Nazr Sucks camp.

[Clandestino]

at least they being nice to malik! too funny about the good hands thing! lol!

[ggoose25]

amen... fuck the ny homers. they're just trying to pretend that isiah didnt screw the pooch on this trade like he does on everything else. Lets see Nazr play before we really evaluate who get the shaft on the deal

[Mark in Austin]

has quick, good hands, unlike Mohammed, who had hands of stone and was an inactive defender.

I think it's a good article, but I have to take exception with this. Give me a friggin' break. For all of Malik's strengths, 'good hands' is absolutely not among them. People have used the 'hands of stone' bit to describe Malik for years.

Barely three effing days and the East Coast media bias is already in full effect.

[Jimcs50]

I told you the other day, I have watched New York play a lot this year and Mohammed blows, he will be a huge bust for the Spurs.

AS I said, New Yorks fucks us over AGAIN

[whottt]

.

Aggie, it's not just the media that is saying these things...it's the fans...even the ones that didn't think they were going to like Malik, even the ones that didn't like that trade.

As for the NY media...sometimes they go into hype mode when a team or owner is good...when a team or owner sucks they are piranha's in feeding frenzy..and when it comes to Isiah and his trades they are most definitely in piranha mode...they have been tearing this guy apart all season...why would they all of a sudden want to contradict themselves?

I don't think it's a case of homerism.

As for your draft analysis, I loved it, it gave me hope.

But then I realized...

It's 7 years old Aggie.

We've had two other Kentucky players that won a National Championship for Pitino...and they haven't worked out too well for us.

And Pitino didn't exactly tear up the NBA.


Set aside your visceral hatred of Malik's TOs for one second...

Do you honestly belive that Rasho is a better defender and rebounder than Malik? Do you really believe he plays as hard as Malik does? Work ethic or not? Do you really believe he wants to win as badly as Malik does?

I don't. And I don't see how anyone can honestly say Rasho plays as hard as Malik. Rasho's a better shot blocker and that's it. And it just so happens that Pop's entire beloved defensive scheme is built around having two shot blockers..everything else is secondary. That's the only reason Rasho is here and Malik isn't, and that's the only reason he starts.

Well Mohammed isn't even as good of a shotblocker as Rasho edit-(Stupidest typo ever edited out)...

I don't like TOs either...and thanks to Devin Brown..I won't ever miss Malik's bonehead TOs because Devin is going to carry on that tradition in fine fashion.

But there's more to the game than TOs, and I cannot think of one time in a big game, in the playoffs, or when he was filling in for Duncan and Robinson...I can't think of a single time Malik's bad traits hurt us more than his good ones helped us. He usually had those badgames against teams like the Clippers...

Against teams like the Lakers and Mavs he always brought his A game.

I'd just like to see someone tell me how Mohammed is going to help us, other than just saying "he's big".

Sean Marks is bigger than Malik too...

[whottt]

And yeah I know Pop found Malik...

But Pop didn't give Malik his desire to win...he didn't give him his heart. Malik had that on his own. Pop might have turned Malik into an NBA player, but he didn't change Malik into something he wasn't.

I already know Mohammed is an NBA player...so is Rasho...

But..

We are gonna be fucked if we've now got ourselves two Rasho's and Horry is breaking down.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

And it just so happens that Pop's entire beloved defensive scheme is built around having two shot blockers..everything else is secondary. That's the only reason Rasho is here and Malik isn't, and that's the only reason he starts.


Ah, finally we get somewhere. You are right about the Spurs D scheme, and guess what: Malik is not a shot blocker!!!!



Well Mohammed isn't even as good of a shotblocker as Malik...

Well, if we are talking out of our ass about things, I think you've got a good point. I'd really like to see you quantify this one.

This season Nazr is 43rd in the league in BPG, and his average is five times higher than Rose.

The most blocks Rose ever had in a season is 52, in the '99-00' season (that's five years ago). that was in 1,341 minutes played.

For comparison:

1,725 minutes in '01-'02, he had 42 blocks.
1933 minutes in '02-'03, he had 40 blocks.
1,256 minutes in '03-'04, he had 24 blocks
So far in 862 minutes this year, he has 9 blocks.

The trend says his block totals are on the decline, and probably in direct correlation with the athleticism in the game increasing and Rose's 6'4" frame being attacked more by opponents unimpressed with his height.

Now let's take a look at Nazr.

Career high: '01-02' with Atlanta, 2168 minutes played with 61 blocks.

1611 minutes in '03-'04, he had 52 blocks.
1519 mintues so far in '04-'05, he has 53 blocks.

So the trend of the last two years when he has significant PT is his block totals are increasing, and you have to at least give Pop some credit that he will improve on those totals both as a byproduct of coaching as well as the Spurs system.

If you take the last four years as being the most relevant (which I do, I could GAF what was going on in '99 being relevant to today), the stats say when you look at Rose vs. Nazr, Mohammed was more productive in the shot blocking department.

I just wanna see where you are getting this whole "Rose is a better shot blocker" and "Nazr is soft" shit from, and I want some proof other than some homer ass media writer and a couple of NY homer bulletin board fans (I mean, they have to be homers if they are on a message board talking about a damn lotto team).

[Kori Ellis]

You can't really trust the NY paper to judge the guy fairly. And unfortunately, you can't really use his stats for the Knicks to judge him either. Because Knicks players are impossible to figure out.

On one hand, you can say his stats are inflated on the Knicks and that they'll decrease on the Spurs. He was only getting the boards, etc because he's the only C and "someone has to rebound".

On the other hand, you can say his stats will increase on the Spurs because the Knicks suck and he'll get more in the Spurs system.

Only time will tell if he'll be able to flourish with the Spurs. The only thing that I don't like about this trade (other than the emotional part for Malik) is that it's so late in the season. It's almost March and at this time is when you'd hope offensively and defensively your players are clicking and everything is running like a machine. When you throw a guy in the mix who is going to get considerable minutes, there's going to be an adjustment period.

In the end, my prediction is that Nazr puts up about the same stats as Malik was. My hope is that the repeated rumblings of him being "soft in the post" aren't true.

[BronxCowboy]

On the other hand, you can say his stats will increase on the Spurs because the Knicks suck and he'll get more in the Spurs system.


I've never heard anyone make a reasonable argument to this effect. Players stats are consistently inflated on bad teams, not good teams.

Nazr's career numbers for his time on the floor are about the same as Malik's, but Malik has been on the Spurs for years, and Nazr has spent most of his career on bad teams. I think getting the same out of him as we got from Malik would be best case scenario.

[Hook Dem]

You can't really trust the NY paper to judge the guy fairly. And unfortunately, you can't really use his stats for the Knicks to judge him either. Because Knicks players are impossible to figure out.

On one hand, you can say his stats are inflated on the Knicks and that they'll decrease on the Spurs. He was only getting the boards, etc because he's the only C and "someone has to rebound".

On the other hand, you can say his stats will increase on the Spurs because the Knicks suck and he'll get more in the Spurs system.

Only time will tell if he'll be able to flourish with the Spurs. The only thing that I don't like about this trade (other than the emotional part for Malik) is that it's so late in the season. It's almost March and at this time is when you'd hope offensively and defensively your players are clicking and everything is running like a machine. When you throw a guy in the mix who is going to get considerable minutes, there's going to be an adjustment period.

In the end, my prediction is that Nazr puts up about the same stats as Malik was. My hope is that the repeated rumblings of him being "soft in the post" aren't true.
At least you are waiting to see him play before passing judgement Kori. Thats more than I can say for a lot of posters here. What did Nazr do besides inherit a chance to win a championship? I'm sure he is very happy about that! Time will tell. I choose to remain optimistic. Most people dont see the real opportunity for Malik either. He should flourish in N.Y. I hope so. He deserves it.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I guess I'll go ahead and throw out my prediction on Nazr:

After he gets acclimated he'll be averaging somewhere around 10 and 10. He's great on the offensive glass and can be one of Pop's two designated offensive glass crashers, and I think the majority of his points will come off Orebound putbacks.

I also think his block numbers will go up, he's got the athleticism to make it happen and he can't help but improve his numbers in the Spurs defensive system.

I think he'll see significantly more minutes than what he was getting in NY, and that we'll largely have a three man big rotation with him, Rasho, and Tim, with Horry and Tmass only seeing spot minutes where foul problems or unique matchup situations dictate.

I'm not worried about Nazr defensively, he and Bowen know each other and I think Bowen will take him under his wing to speed the learning curve. Also noticed Tmass talking with him during pre-game last night, and like has been mentioned elsewhere - the coaches had his ear the whole game last night giving him the sideline view of what's going on and what's expected of him.

It says a lot to me that the scout I visited with last night was not very happy with the Knicks about this trade, for one calling Isiah a "fucking idiot" and for another saying he can't believe that the spurs both cleared a major cap hit in Rose's contract off the books and also addressed the one glaring weakness in the eyes of most scout types in the West: the lack of depth on the front line behind Tim.

And I respect his opinion a hell of a lot more than some NY media hack, his team has kicked our ass twice already this year.

[2pac]

Has Nazr ever dunked over Mutumbo or blocked a Bradley Dunk?

Look at whats important. You guys are missing the boat.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:lol

[Jimcs50]

Has any under achiever ever came to SA and turned over a new leaf?

No!!!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Stephen Jackson
Speedy Claxton
Malik Rose
Bruce Bowen

Good call Jim.

[Jimcs50]

Stephen Jackson
Speedy Claxton
Malik Rose
Bruce Bowen

Good call Jim.


Not one of those was considered an underachiever, not one.

[Jimcs50]

And Speedy only played well in the playoffs when TP was struggling, he was not any better than he was in Philly, only healthier.

[Jimcs50]

AHF, I will bet you any amt of money right now that Nazr does not average 10-10 like you predicted, deal?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Nice comments, Kori.

I'm with you in the the only thing that worries me is the chemistry issue.

Why don't we give Nazr a little while and see how he plays as he adjusts to our system?

Rose was not a big-time contributor here any more (although he occasionally put up a big game), and Nazr has the potential to improve. In our team D schemes, I would be very surprised if he doesn't vastly improve just like Rasho did, and I'd rather see him shoot the ball than Roase who had a penchant for ill-advised 18-fters and pump-faking one too many times before getting rejected. And I'm not hting on Malik, I just think he's passed his prime as far as the Spurs' team direction.

We all love Malik as a guy, but as a basketball decision this was a no-brainer. Nazr is no Samaki Walker!

[Jimcs50]

Dude, I have Leage Pass, I have seen this guy more times than I can count, he sucks. He is tall and he is cheap, that is why we have him, not because he is good.

Trust me on this...Nazr blows.

[Jimcs50]

Remember we gave up Rose and a 1st round draft pick and a 2nd rounder. Need I remind you who we have drafted the past few years in those spots?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Not one of those was considered an underachiever, not one.

Rose was a nobody. Project at best, bust at worst.

Claxton was "chronically injured, never healthy, never gonna be a player."

How can you say Jackson wasn't an underachiever?

He had bounced between Phoenix and the Nets, and was CUT by Byron who said he'd never amount to anything.

Bowen had been cut by the Heat, and Riley said he was finished in the league.

No underachievers my ass.

I'll take your bet, howabout you put up $100 dentistry profit to my $10 broke ass college grad bank account :lol

[ChumpDumper]

We gave up two first rounders, we have one 1st rounder this summer.

Whom do you have penciled in for #27-30 in 2006?

Need I remind you we've kept a grand total of two first round picks since Duncan was drafted?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

a 1st round draft pick and a 2nd rounder. Need I remind you who we have drafted the past few years in those spots?

We have kept two of the seven first round picks since we drafted Duncan, and we pretty much have our deep set after this summer for the next 4 years.

The only opportunity for a draft pick over the next two drafts is a long three and a gunner. That's it.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

We don't need draft picks! We have our core (Duncan, TP, Manu, Rasho) locked up long-term, with Udrih, Barry and Bowen for another 2 seasons after this one. It's not a bad time to give up draft picks for a centre with potential.

I agree that Rose, Claxton, Bowen and Jackson were all underachievers who improved here. Rose improved each year for his first 4 with us, Bowen has reached All-D standars, and Jackson was an inconsistent, doghouse living character problem before he sat on our bench for a year and became a real player.

Also, Claxton was excellent in the 2nd half of 2003, not just the Finals! I remember watching him when I was in SA and thinking that he had to be the best backup PG in the league! Remember the 1-rebound off a triple double night? TD stole the rebound off him unknowingly! Anyway, he was not just a 3-game wonder, he was solid all throughtout the lead-up to the Championship.

[Jimcs50]

Rose was a nobody. Project at best, bust at worst.

Claxton was "chronically injured, never healthy, never gonna be a player."

How can you say Jackson wasn't an underachiever?

He had bounced between Phoenix and the Nets, and was CUT by Byron who said he'd never amount to anything.

Bowen had been cut by the Heat, and Riley said he was finished in the league.

No underachievers my ass.

I'll take your bet, howabout you put up $100 dentistry profit to my $10 broke ass college grad bank account :lol

Rose was not an underachiever, he was a wet behind the ears player who got no PT.

Claxton was hurt but he was a good player, he was ok for SA for most of his time here, but had a good playoff run which raised his stock.

Bowen was not cut by Riley, he left as a free agent, he was highly acclaimed as a defender and that is why Pop wanted him

Jackson got no PT either till he got here, he was not a starter that underachieved like Nazr.

Nazr sucks, you will all see soon enough.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Actually, Jim, Jackson started for an extended period in NJ.

Bowen was on the rise, but not a perrenial all-D candidate like he is now.

Claxton was great for the last 40 games and the playoffs.

On Nazr, I think we should wait and see. The Spurs' system and teamwork often makes silk purses out of pig's ears. The Knicks system makes all those players look bloody awful. We will see.

[Jimcs50]

Actually, Jim, Jackson started for an extended period in NJ.

Bowen was on the rise, but not a perrenial all-D candidate like he is now.

Claxton was great for the last 40 games and the playoffs.

On Nazr, I think we should wait and see. The Spurs' system and teamwork often makes silk purses out of pig's ears. The Knicks system makes all those players look bloody awful. We will see.


Well, I hope you are right.

But those players were not underachievers, in the stictest sense of the definition...they were all young and did not have any real playing time as starters prior to their stay in SA.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Jax started several games in NJ, Byron Scott cut him and said he was too much of a loose cannon to make it in the league.

[Jimcs50]

Jax started several games in NJ, Byron Scott cut him and said he was too much of a loose cannon to make it in the league.


That is not an underachiever...nuff said.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well if you're going to be who decides what an underachiever is, I guess we shouldn't even bother talking about it.

Jax was a highly talented player coming into the league who was viewed as a bust by both Phoenix and NJ. If that's not underachieving (relative to what he did once he got to SA) then I don't know what is.

[Jimcs50]

He was never ever projected to do anything.

What kind of contract did he get when he went to Atlanta??????????????????

He got league min, just about.


He prospered in Atlanta and made a name for himself there, not on SA.

Had he been as good in SA as in Atlanta, he would have been a hot comodity and had a huge payday after SA, not after Atlanta.

[ducks]

people should atleast give him a chance to play in the spurs uniform before saying he sucks badly
rose had a decent game in his day view as a knick
but it was against a TIRED PACERS TEAM.


give the guy a chance before saying he is a bust
all the other writers are saying spurs stole him so lets see

[Jimcs50]

Tired Pacers team???
Kurt Thomas has 1 more rebound that Rose and he played 29 more mins than Rose

[dcole50]

Jackson got no PT either till he got here, he was not a starter that underachieved like Nazr.

Nazr sucks, you will all see soon enough.

Jackson got no PT because he underachieved.

Also, I can't understand why you want Nazr to do so poorly. He's one of our guys now. If he plays well, the Spurs will be better. 10-10? Hmm .. I won't go that far, but he'll be a solid player.

I like Malik. I'll miss him. But I'm ready to move on and root for Nazr. Go Spurs Go.

[Jimcs50]

Jackson got no PT because he underachieved.

Also, I can't understand why you want Nazr to do so poorly. He's one of our guys now. If he plays well, the Spurs will be better. 10-10? Hmm .. I won't go that far, but he'll be a solid player.

I like Malik. I'll miss him. But I'm ready to move on and root for Nazr. Go Spurs Go.



I do not want him to do poorly, I just know he sucks ass.

There is a difference.

[ducks]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Stephon Marbury and the New York Knicks took advantage of the tired Indiana Pacers to win consecutive games for the first time since late December.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2005022618

did not watch the game but according to the article FROM YAHOO NOT PACER PAPER
they were tired

[Jimcs50]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Stephon Marbury and the New York Knicks took advantage of the tired Indiana Pacers to win consecutive games for the first time since late December.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2005022618

did not watch the game but according to the article FROM YAHOO NOT PACER PAPER
they were tired


So. they were more tired when Rose was in the game, than when Kurt Thomas was in the game, huh?

[sickdsm]

Nazr's tall, Malik's undersized. End of discussion.

Bowen was a great defender back in the day. He just didn't get the credit. Name me one defender thats not winning or pumping in 15-20 PPG that does get credit. If Ariza and Pietrus got traded or dropped today no way in hell does that make them underachievers.

[Jimcs50]

Nazr's tall, Malik's undersized. End of discussion.

Bowen was a great defender back in the day. He just didn't get the credit. Name me one defender thats not winning or pumping in 15-20 PPG that does get credit. If Ariza and Pietrus got traded or dropped today no way in hell does that make them underachievers.


good points

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I really don't like the fact that Whottt found this article saying Mohammad takes nights off and isn't an active defender, that's the kind of shit that kills what we have, and that would really piss me off if we traded Malik away for a Zach Randolph (energy level not the drugs)

[dcole50]

So. they were more tired when Rose was in the game, than when Kurt Thomas was in the game, huh?
as the game progressed they probably became more tired. knicks players have given up too. malik hasn't yet.

you can't judge malik's success in new york on one game. you can't judge nazr's success in san antonio on zero games.

but, yeah, if you want to believe that malik is gold and that we're doomed without him, then be my guest. maybe tim will finally emerge from malike's shadow. juding by the outcry, i assume tim is his backup. ;)

[ducks]

I find it funny you would believe a new york media article
even peter versey was blasting thomas for the trade

but one game changes everything
now had rose got one rebound 3 turnovers in 7 minutes
I wonder what the article would have said

[dcole50]

as soon as malik has a bad game, the new york media will crucify him. as soon as nazr has a good game, the media will call for thomas' head.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

well hopefully Malik will only have good games and Mohammad will have better ones.

[dcole50]

^ agreed

[Jimcs50]

hope in one hand.......

[whottt]

Well, if we are talking out of our ass about things, I think you've got a good point. I'd really like to see you quantify this one.

).

LMAO...sorry dude. That was most definitely a typo. I can see why you classified that as talking out of my ass...but it was a typo I promise. Obviously.

I meant Mohammed is not a better shotblocker than Rasho.

[Jimcs50]

Prove me wrong, Nazr...I dare you, you big pussy.

I like this Sequ immitation.....

I do not feel bad, because I do not count Nazr as a Spurs just yet, since he has nevr played in a game for my Spurs.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Is Rasho really that good at shot blocking either? All of the sudden since his injury everyone seems to think his defensive prowess is un-matched throughout the league, I never thought much of Rasho's play, and he never gives me much to appreciate, other than the occasional 10+ rebounds, but that is rare.

[alisalizard]

i'm going to miss malik but im trying to understand the "business" side of the decision. i'm glad he had a good first game. i want new york to see what a wonderful guy they just got.

[whottt]

Nice comments, Kori.



Rose was not a big-time contributor here any more (although he occasionally put up a big game), !


And we choked butt against LA last season in the playoffs. That was the series where Horry and Malik's roles needed to be reversed.

Malik was effective for us the last time he got any PT.

[whottt]

even peter versey was blasting thomas for the trade

He wasn't blasting the talent trade off...none of the writers are.

In fact he made sure to mention that Malik was a favorite of his.

They are blasting Isiah for blowing up the payroll...

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Yeah i Haven't found a single writer who has said the Spurs got the better end of this deal on pure talent, but more that they dropped payroll and added size, never said that Malik wasn't a more talented player than Mohammad though.

[ducks]

well they said they improved their only weakness
height
I call that smart

I do not think mohammad is much more talented then rose
he is taller though and can guard bigger people

[timvp]

I guess I'll go ahead and throw out my prediction on Nazr:

After he gets acclimated he'll be averaging somewhere around 10 and 10. He's great on the offensive glass and can be one of Pop's two designated offensive glass crashers, and I think the majority of his points will come off Orebound putbacks.

Are you freaking kidding me? 10 points and 10 rebounds a game for Nazr Mohammed? That would never happen.

If it does happen (which it won't), the Spurs would have made the best trade in franchise history.


I think he'll see significantly more minutes than what he was getting in NY, and that we'll largely have a three man big rotation with him, Rasho, and Tim, with Horry and Tmass only seeing spot minutes where foul problems or unique matchup situations dictate.

Significantly more minutes? He averaged 28.1 minutes per game on the Knicks. How many minutes do you see him averaging on the Spurs?

I know you hated Malik but you are acting like the Spurs traded for Ben Wallace.


I'm not worried about Nazr defensively, he and Bowen know each other and I think Bowen will take him under his wing to speed the learning curve. Also noticed Tmass talking with him during pre-game last night, and like has been mentioned elsewhere - the coaches had his ear the whole game last night giving him the sideline view of what's going on and what's expected of him.

Yeah, Bowen was his teammate for a couple months so he'll be a great defender.

:shootme


It says a lot to me that the scout I visited with last night was not very happy with the Knicks about this trade, for one calling Isiah a "fucking idiot" and for another saying he can't believe that the spurs both cleared a major cap hit in Rose's contract off the books and also addressed the one glaring weakness in the eyes of most scout types in the West: the lack of depth on the front line behind Tim.

Tell that scout that you think Nazr is going to average 10 and 10 on the Spurs and play significantly more minutes than 28.1 and then listen to him laugh and hang up the phone.

[Supergirl]

Yeah i Haven't found a single writer who has said the Spurs got the better end of this deal on pure talent, but more that they dropped payroll and added size, never said that Malik wasn't a more talented player than Mohammad though.

Are you kidding? EVERY article I have read has said the Spurs made out like bandits - saying they got a "quality back up center" AND shed a cumbersome contract.

No one I'm reading seems to think we downgraded from Malik. No one seems to think we upgraded either, but all we need is him to come in, play 10-15 minutes a game, grab rebounds (he does that well), block shots (he does that well) and maybe hit a few shots.

I predict he'll be more efficient and focused, because he'll be coming off the bench. I like that he is friends with Bowen (I think Kori reported that) because I think of Bowen as the real leader of the team. He sets the tone.

[wildbill2u]

Not one of those was considered an underachiever, not one.

I'm not sure if he was an underacheiver or simply a slow developing achiever, but Avery Johnson sure played better as a Spur than he had elsewhere, eventually guiding the team to a championship.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

LJ,

Sorry, that should have said *consistently* more minutes. There's some nights in NY where he had like 12 minutes played. As for his minutes, I think he'll take 10 from Tim and 18-20 or so depending on matchups from Rasho.

[timvp]

And do you want to readjust that 10 and 10 figure or are you sticking to it?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm sticking with it. I don't expect him to hit it right away, but think that by the time April and the playoffs roll around, we'll be able to pencil him in for that every night.

[T Park]

^ I agree with Aggie's assesment.


I dont understand the Nazr hate, and the wishing hed do bad.


I love how people already have him penciled in as he "sucks' "soft" all that BS.


You hold Shaq to 30% shooting in a night, you arent fuckin soft.



All over an undersized, childish forward.

[Kori Ellis]

As for his minutes, I think he'll take 10 from Tim and 18-20 or so depending on matchups from Rasho.

So you want Tim to play 25 mpg? :wtf

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Dang, I should have explained myself better on the minutes.

There's 48 available at PF
48 available at C

I think he'll take 10 minutes of the PF minutes, and 18-20 of the center minutes.

Better?

C/PF minutes (96)

Duncan 35
Rasho 25
Nazr 28

Horry, Tmass the rest

[Kori Ellis]

Yeah, that's much better. "he'll take 10 from Tim" didn't make any sense at all. But I didn't have a clue what you meant.

I think he'll average about 20 minutes a game if he produces.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yeah, that was one of those whole speak before you think moments, such is life...

[ChumpDumper]

I think Horry will still be used about the same; his role and utility isnt changeing.

If Massenburg beats Nazr out like he did Malik, you can call this move a failure, or a lateral move at best.

[Go-spurs-Go]

I just don't understand why some people here are stupid enough to turn their love of Rose into the hate of Nazr. It is just NOT fair! Narz haven't play a game with the Spurs yet, and you guys are already saying how bad he is. Come on, give that guy a chance!! Yes, the Spurs need team chemistry. At the same time, the Spurs need fans' support as well. The trade has ALREADY been made. No matter what you said here, we can't undo the trade. I mean, it is nothing wrong to love Rose. But, the bottomline is that this trade is not initiated by Nazr. He is NOT the guy that kicked Rose out. We (as Spurs fans) should give a warm welcome to Nazr (and NOT blaming how bad he plays).

Welcome to the Spurs, Nazr!! ^^

[Jimcs50]

I do not hate him, I never said I wanted him to do badly. I am just saying that he will be on the bench by years end and will be declared a bust by all of us in here in one month.

If he proves me wrong, I will be the happiest guy in the world, but he will have to play totally different than he has his whole career to do that. If Pop can get him to play great, Pop will be the greatest coach in the history of sports.

[SpurYank]

This is an excellent forum for basketball fans everywhere to read and to understand how passionate Spurs fans are. However, the more I read it the more I realize we lack class and sophistication. I doubt if any of the f and mf words are necessary to make a point. I have a 15 year old and an 18 year old who are ardent Spurs fans in New York and none of their classmates use this language to express themselves. Next thing you know you won't be only identified as a dull city, the tenth ranking fat city in America, and one where sports " go to die," you'll also be identified as not being able to say anything without using the f word.

[Jimcs50]

This is an excellent forum for basketball fans everywhere to read and to understand how passionate Spurs fans are. However, the more I read it the more I realize we lack class and sophistication. I doubt if any of the f and mf words are necessary to make a point. I have a 15 year old and an 18 year old who are ardent Spurs fans in New York and none of their classmates use this language to express themselves. Next thing you know you won't be only identified as a dull city, the tenth ranking fat city in America, and one where sports " go to die," you'll also be identified as not being able to say anything without using the f word.


I will try to stop cursing, so your kids can read my posts.

:oops

[SpursChampsIII]

The Knicks fans are laughing at us for thinking he's a shotblocker as much as we are laughing at them for thinking Malik has good hands...

Bottom line...they are not familiar with the bad part of Malik's game...but they are familiar with the bad parts of Mohammed's...

Look, I am pissed about this trade...I think it was a stupid trade to make at this point of the season...

But I am looking like a motherfucker for some tangible evidence that Mohammed is going to improve this team...and I aint finding it.

The NY Media is fucking roasting Isiah...they want his ass run out of town...they want this guy fired...

So why are even they saying Malik is more to their team than Mohammed was...

And don't give me this shit that Duncan makes bigmen put up better numbers...the next bigman he makes better will be the fucking first....and the next guy that Pop is able to turn from passive to intense will also be the first.

He didn't help Drob's numbers...he didn't help Rasho's numbers...he hasn't helped Horry's numbers...And guess what...Malik's best games also came without Duncan and Robinson.

The Knicks are laughing at us...that's a laugh right there. The only mistake the Spurs might have made with this trade is not adding Rasho and getting Kurt Thomas too...if that rumor was true.

[Sec24Row7]

Guys, I know everyone is upset by this trade but it just makes sense.

Our players don't make our defensive scheme, our defensive scheme makes players.

Nazr is an active big body with more athleticism than Rasho who we can plug in the paint and drive people along the baseline to.

He can D up on big men that Rose would have gotten shot over by.

It just makes sense.

I love Malik, I'm sad to see him go, the decision is hard but I'm not such a rabid fan of the guy that I can't see the big picture.

[TwoHandJam]

Guys, I know everyone is upset by this trade but it just makes sense.

Our players don't make our defensive scheme, our defensive scheme makes players.

Nazr is an active big body with more athleticism than Rasho who we can plug in the paint and drive people along the baseline to.

He can D up on big men that Rose would have gotten shot over by.

It just makes sense.

I love Malik, I'm sad to see him go, the decision is hard but I'm not such a rabid fan of the guy that I can't see the big picture.Well said.

[whottt]

The Knicks are laughing at us...that's a laugh right there. The only mistake the Spurs might have made with this trade is not adding Rasho and getting Kurt Thomas too...if that rumor was true.

Their fans are pretty smart...just because their team sucks doesn't mean their fans aren't knowledgable. Why do you think they are so bitter?


East Coast Fans have always been a cut above fans in other parts of the country as far as knowledge goes.

Most stadiums the PA guy has to announce a milestone or something for the fans to pick up on it and acknowledge the achievement...

Watch a Knicks game or a Yankee game sometimes...many times the fans will start spontaneously cheering and the national announcers will have no clue what is going on...and they'll find out later that it was a career high for that player or something that wasn't announced.

I remember watching the WS a few years ago when Paul O'Neill was playing in his last game in Yankee stadium...the fans kept chanting Paul O'Neill throughout the entire game and the announcers thought it was just because he was popular, they couldn't figure out why O'Neill kept breaking up and responding to the chants, in a game the Yankees were losing..about the 8th inning they realized that the fans were chanting his name because it was his last game in Yankee Stadium...

Read their analysis of Mohammed's game and see if you think they are dumb.

[shaq_h8ter]

I think it's a good article, but I have to take exception with this. Give me a friggin' break. For all of Malik's strengths, 'good hands' is absolutely not among them. People have used the 'hands of stone' bit to describe Malik for years.

No buttery hands is a better desciption... :)

[boutons]

"If Massenburg beats Nazr out like he did Malik,"

WTF? have you looked at Tony's stats vs Malik?

How can Tony have beatn out Malik when Malik numbers are substantially superior?