http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/41408.htm
TWO STRAIGHT!
By MARC BERMAN
February 27, 2005 -- Malik Rose made more hustle plays in his nine-minute stint of the second quarter last night than departed center Nazr Mohammed did the whole season.
Rose's presence has already been felt, adding grit to a Knick team that had lacked toughness. When the Knicks took over the game, in the second quarter, the only quarter Rose played, the 6-foot-6 power forward led the charge with his spirit and eight rebounds in nine minutes.
The Knicks built a 47-37 halftime lead by holding Indiana to 13 points in the second quarter on the way to an impressive, defensive-minded 90-79 victory at the sold-out Garden.
The Knicks are 2-0 since Thursday's trades that were panned despite the Knicks getting better for the present, and for the future with two first-round picks.
Isiah Thomas doesn't look like such a dunce today, as he's started to dig himself out of the mistakes he made when he added the limited, defense-poor Mohammed and the shot Vin Baker.
"It's the kind of energy you can expect to see from me," said Rose, making his Knick debut and adding two points, coming on a putback.
"He's a live body," coach Herb Williams said.
Williams did not use Rose in the second half, explaining he wanted to get a look-see at their other newcomer, Maurice Taylor, less active in his five second-half minutes.
Taylor banged in his first shot as a Knick, a 14-foot face-up jumper, but looked lost. Neither player has undergone a full practice.
The Knicks (23-33) have now won four of their last six and have their first winning streak since December. It's still not enough to make a serious playoff run, as they still trail the Atlantic Division by 51/2 games. But at least they are looking like a team again.
Rose, the 30-year-old veteran, adds the knowledge of what makes a championship team, having played on two in San Antonio. He has 80 playoff games of experience, most on the team. He rebounds, defends, hustles and has quick, good hands, unlike Mohammed, who had hands of stone and was an inactive defender.
Rose said winning is not about talent, which the Knicks have despite their awful record.
"In basketball, you can have a great team on paper, but it's different than having a great team on the court," Rose said at yesterday's morning shoot-around.
"[San Antonio] may not have had a lot of talent. On paper we probably were the fifth, sixth team in the conference but when you go out there and you play with what's inside your shirt and head, it could make a world of difference."
The Knicks are jacked up by the shakeup. Kurt Thomas, now the center after being spared at the trade deadline, is playing beautifully, his jumper money. Thomas added 16 points and a team-high nine rebounds. Rose's eight was second on the club.
On Rose's first defensive possession, he knocked the ball away from Jermaine O'Neal from behind and collected the ball off the glass. Two possessions later, Rose grabbed a rebound and started a fastbreak that went from Penny Hardaway-to-Jamal Crawford (17 points) for a layup. Stephon Marbury drove hard all night and finished with 21 points,
Rose's only points came on a tough rebound in which he laid it home in traffic. "I needed that," Rose said. "I was a little nervous out there."
Rose also pulled out the chair on O'Neal, a phrase used for stepping away as the offensive player backs you in. O'Neal fell to the court. "It's the 6-6 trick play against a superstar," Rose said.
I think it's a good article, but I have to take exception with this. Give me a friggin' break. For all of Malik's strengths, 'good hands' is absolutely not among them. People have used the 'hands of stone' bit to describe Malik for years.has quick, good hands, unlike Mohammed, who had hands of stone and was an inactive defender.
I agree...Malik had his good hands nights with the Spurs and last night was one of them for the Knicks...he can have horrible nights with his hands. And he had a good night on his pump fake also..
But you need to look at what they are saying about Mohammed...and contrast it with Malik...
Apart from the good hands thing...the rest of the stuff is the same Malik we know...
What if that is the Mohammed they know...
That makes this a bad ing trade.
How can you put any stock in article that says this about Rose?
And I'd love to hear his explanation of how a defensively inactive guy like Mohammed comes up with eight blocks in a game.Rose, the 30-year-old veteran, adds the knowledge of what makes a championship team, having played on two in San Antonio. He has 80 playoff games of experience, most on the team. He rebounds, defends, hustles and has quick, good hands,....
damn! I know nazir isn't that bad. He better not be!!
How can you put any stock in article that says this about Rose?
And I'd love to hear his explanation of how a defensively inactive guy like Mohammed comes up with eight blocks in a game.
The Knicks fans are laughing at us for thinking he's a shotblocker as much as we are laughing at them for thinking Malik has good hands...
Bottom line...they are not familiar with the bad part of Malik's game...but they are familiar with the bad parts of Mohammed's...
Look, I am pissed about this trade...I think it was a stupid trade to make at this point of the season...
But I am looking like a mother er for some tangible evidence that Mohammed is going to improve this team...and I aint finding it.
The NY Media is ing roasting Isiah...they want his ass run out of town...they want this guy fired...
So why are even they saying Malik is more to their team than Mohammed was...
And don't give me this that Duncan makes bigmen put up better numbers...the next bigman he makes better will be the ing first....and the next guy that Pop is able to turn from passive to intense will also be the first.
He didn't help Drob's numbers...he didn't help Rasho's numbers...he hasn't helped Horry's numbers...And guess what...Malik's best games also came without Duncan and Robinson.
And I'll tell you what is really giving me the butt clench right about now...
These mother ers thought Charlie Ward was a good defender...and even they think Mohammed is an unintense defensive player...
AHF, if none of this stuff is sounds alarming to you then I have way underestimated your hatred of Malik...
Um, Tim Duncan most CERTAINLY made DRob better. How many les did DRob win before Tim came along?
3
Scoring le, rebounding le, and a blocked shots le...how many did he win after Duncan came to the team?
And if you noticed...I said "numbers"...I suggest you apply your superpowers to reading...sweetie.
And by the way...how many les has Duncan won without DRob?
Well, to be a bit more optimistic, Rasho has become a better defender since he joined the Spurs, IMO, so maybe Nazr will too. I agree that he isn't very good on defense right now, and we would be better off with Malik, but Nazr is a very good rebounder and if he can learn to defend he can be good back up C. But never a shot-blocker.Who actually thought he was?
Hey Whott why don't you wait until the guy plays some games, then make your judgment huh? You may find him a little more motivated than before now that he's on a championship contender.
Seriously though, why are you putting so much stock in what some dork ass homer writer for the Knicks says? It's NY, media capital of the world. They're going to spin Malik as the best thing that could happen to the Knicks outside of Jordan in his prime somehow showing up, and they're going to badmouth the guy who just left to make it look like they got the better end of the deal.
Why aren't you finding evidence he'll improve? Just because some hack is spinning the trade up on the East Coast? WTF?
You seem to be so ing in love with Rose, answer me this? What the was Rose before Pop developed him? He was a ing scrub. And now he's a guy you're going postal over losing out on his 20 DNP-CDs that he got this year.
Pop built up your boy Rose, what makes you think he can't do the same with Nazr?
As for "numbers", Nazr is already averaging more than Rasho. Dave and Horry were/are both in the twilight of their careers when working with Pop, they were hardly projects/unfulfilled potential.
You want to know about work ethic? When Mohammed got to Kentucky he was well over 300 pounds. Think out of weight Shaq. But he got to Kentucky under Pitino (a guy who I think knows a thing or two about coaching hoops, at least at the college level), and busted his ass to get down to a suitable playing weight.
His junior year he anchored the post and led Kentucky to a national championship. Yeah, sure sounds like a soft scrub with bad hands and no potential to me.
Here's Nazr's draft assessment.
http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1...s/mohammed.htm
I looked at his career turnover stats for indication of "bad hands", he's averaging a career 1.1 per game.What's to like about Mohammed? Many things. For one, the work ethic must be mentioned. Coming out of HS, Mohammed was vastly overweight (350 pounds it was rumored) and was pretty much unknown on the recruiting scene. But since that time, Mohammed has slimmed down to around 270 lbs, and has worked very hard on his game. Offensively, Mohammed is solid down low. He has a few post moves -- most notably a soft jump-hook. Late in the season, he even started showing off a fadeaway turnaround shot that was pretty effective. What might be Mohammed's strongest point are his hands. You throw it to him and you're pretty much guaranteed he's going to catch it. Defensively, Mohammed gets good position and gets his share of blocks. By simply being big, he's able to get rebounding position and body out his defender. In general, Mohammed has a terrific at ude -- his work ethic to improve his game and his treatment of coming off the bench early in the season are testaments to it.
For comparison, you've got
Rose 1.4
Horry 1.35
Duncan 3.99
Rasho 1.09
Also from Nazr's bio:
Ranks #18 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage(0.509)
Ranks #10 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds(169.0)
Ranks #11 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per Game(3.1)
Ranks #10 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(5.3)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(13.9)
And if you want to look at Rose vs. Nazr on defense:
Nazr has four seasons with more than 50 blocks, Rose has ONE. So spare me all this "he can't play D either" that all of a sudden is unfortunately emanating from the Rose Rules/Nazr Sucks camp.
at least they being nice to malik! too funny about the good hands thing! lol!
amen... the ny homers. they're just trying to pretend that isiah didnt screw the pooch on this trade like he does on everything else. Lets see Nazr play before we really evaluate who get the shaft on the deal
Barely three effing days and the East Coast media bias is already in full effect.I think it's a good article, but I have to take exception with this. Give me a friggin' break. For all of Malik's strengths, 'good hands' is absolutely not among them. People have used the 'hands of stone' bit to describe Malik for years.has quick, good hands, unlike Mohammed, who had hands of stone and was an inactive defender.
I told you the other day, I have watched New York play a lot this year and Mohammed blows, he will be a huge bust for the Spurs.
AS I said, New Yorks s us over AGAIN
Aggie, it's not just the media that is saying these things...it's the fans...even the ones that didn't think they were going to like Malik, even the ones that didn't like that trade.
As for the NY media...sometimes they go into hype mode when a team or owner is good...when a team or owner sucks they are piranha's in feeding frenzy..and when it comes to Isiah and his trades they are most definitely in piranha mode...they have been tearing this guy apart all season...why would they all of a sudden want to contradict themselves?
I don't think it's a case of homerism.
As for your draft analysis, I loved it, it gave me hope.
But then I realized...
It's 7 years old Aggie.
We've had two other Kentucky players that won a National Championship for Pitino...and they haven't worked out too well for us.
And Pitino didn't exactly tear up the NBA.
Set aside your visceral hatred of Malik's TOs for one second...
Do you honestly belive that Rasho is a better defender and rebounder than Malik? Do you really believe he plays as hard as Malik does? Work ethic or not? Do you really believe he wants to win as badly as Malik does?
I don't. And I don't see how anyone can honestly say Rasho plays as hard as Malik. Rasho's a better shot blocker and that's it. And it just so happens that Pop's entire beloved defensive scheme is built around having two shot blockers..everything else is secondary. That's the only reason Rasho is here and Malik isn't, and that's the only reason he starts.
Well Mohammed isn't even as good of a shotblocker as Rasho edit-(Stupidest typo ever edited out)...
I don't like TOs either...and thanks to Devin Brown..I won't ever miss Malik's bonehead TOs because Devin is going to carry on that tradition in fine fashion.
But there's more to the game than TOs, and I cannot think of one time in a big game, in the playoffs, or when he was filling in for Duncan and Robinson...I can't think of a single time Malik's bad traits hurt us more than his good ones helped us. He usually had those badgames against teams like the Clippers...
Against teams like the Lakers and Mavs he always brought his A game.
I'd just like to see someone tell me how Mohammed is going to help us, other than just saying "he's big".
Sean Marks is bigger than Malik too...
Last edited by whottt; 02-27-2005 at 11:26 PM.
And yeah I know Pop found Malik...
But Pop didn't give Malik his desire to win...he didn't give him his heart. Malik had that on his own. Pop might have turned Malik into an NBA player, but he didn't change Malik into something he wasn't.
I already know Mohammed is an NBA player...so is Rasho...
But..
We are gonna be ed if we've now got ourselves two Rasho's and Horry is breaking down.
Ah, finally we get somewhere. You are right about the Spurs D scheme, and guess what: Malik is not a shot blocker!!!!And it just so happens that Pop's entire beloved defensive scheme is built around having two shot blockers..everything else is secondary. That's the only reason Rasho is here and Malik isn't, and that's the only reason he starts.
Well, if we are talking out of our ass about things, I think you've got a good point. I'd really like to see you quantify this one.Well Mohammed isn't even as good of a shotblocker as Malik...
This season Nazr is 43rd in the league in BPG, and his average is five times higher than Rose.
The most blocks Rose ever had in a season is 52, in the '99-00' season (that's five years ago). that was in 1,341 minutes played.
For comparison:
1,725 minutes in '01-'02, he had 42 blocks.
1933 minutes in '02-'03, he had 40 blocks.
1,256 minutes in '03-'04, he had 24 blocks
So far in 862 minutes this year, he has 9 blocks.
The trend says his block totals are on the decline, and probably in direct correlation with the athleticism in the game increasing and Rose's 6'4" frame being attacked more by opponents unimpressed with his height.
Now let's take a look at Nazr.
Career high: '01-02' with Atlanta, 2168 minutes played with 61 blocks.
1611 minutes in '03-'04, he had 52 blocks.
1519 mintues so far in '04-'05, he has 53 blocks.
So the trend of the last two years when he has significant PT is his block totals are increasing, and you have to at least give Pop some credit that he will improve on those totals both as a byproduct of coaching as well as the Spurs system.
If you take the last four years as being the most relevant (which I do, I could GAF what was going on in '99 being relevant to today), the stats say when you look at Rose vs. Nazr, Mohammed was more productive in the shot blocking department.
I just wanna see where you are getting this whole "Rose is a better shot blocker" and "Nazr is soft" from, and I want some proof other than some homer ass media writer and a couple of NY homer bulletin board fans (I mean, they have to be homers if they are on a message board talking about a damn lotto team).
You can't really trust the NY paper to judge the guy fairly. And unfortunately, you can't really use his stats for the Knicks to judge him either. Because Knicks players are impossible to figure out.
On one hand, you can say his stats are inflated on the Knicks and that they'll decrease on the Spurs. He was only getting the boards, etc because he's the only C and "someone has to rebound".
On the other hand, you can say his stats will increase on the Spurs because the Knicks suck and he'll get more in the Spurs system.
Only time will tell if he'll be able to flourish with the Spurs. The only thing that I don't like about this trade (other than the emotional part for Malik) is that it's so late in the season. It's almost March and at this time is when you'd hope offensively and defensively your players are clicking and everything is running like a machine. When you throw a guy in the mix who is going to get considerable minutes, there's going to be an adjustment period.
In the end, my prediction is that Nazr puts up about the same stats as Malik was. My hope is that the repeated rumblings of him being "soft in the post" aren't true.
I've never heard anyone make a reasonable argument to this effect. Players stats are consistently inflated on bad teams, not good teams.
Nazr's career numbers for his time on the floor are about the same as Malik's, but Malik has been on the Spurs for years, and Nazr has spent most of his career on bad teams. I think getting the same out of him as we got from Malik would be best case scenario.
At least you are waiting to see him play before passing judgement Kori. Thats more than I can say for a lot of posters here. What did Nazr do besides inherit a chance to win a championship? I'm sure he is very happy about that! Time will tell. I choose to remain optimistic. Most people dont see the real opportunity for Malik either. He should flourish in N.Y. I hope so. He deserves it.
I guess I'll go ahead and throw out my prediction on Nazr:
After he gets acclimated he'll be averaging somewhere around 10 and 10. He's great on the offensive glass and can be one of Pop's two designated offensive glass crashers, and I think the majority of his points will come off Orebound putbacks.
I also think his block numbers will go up, he's got the athleticism to make it happen and he can't help but improve his numbers in the Spurs defensive system.
I think he'll see significantly more minutes than what he was getting in NY, and that we'll largely have a three man big rotation with him, Rasho, and Tim, with Horry and Tmass only seeing spot minutes where foul problems or unique matchup situations dictate.
I'm not worried about Nazr defensively, he and Bowen know each other and I think Bowen will take him under his wing to speed the learning curve. Also noticed Tmass talking with him during pre-game last night, and like has been mentioned elsewhere - the coaches had his ear the whole game last night giving him the sideline view of what's going on and what's expected of him.
It says a lot to me that the scout I visited with last night was not very happy with the Knicks about this trade, for one calling Isiah a " ing idiot" and for another saying he can't believe that the spurs both cleared a major cap hit in Rose's contract off the books and also addressed the one glaring weakness in the eyes of most scout types in the West: the lack of depth on the front line behind Tim.
And I respect his opinion a of a lot more than some NY media hack, his team has kicked our ass twice already this year.
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