Black Males In Crisis In America

[Nbadan]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A batch of new studies suggesting that black males in the United States are falling ever further behind other groups in health, education and employment has ignited a debate within the black community about who is to blame and what can be done.
...
Whatever the causes, the latest figures paint a bleak picture. For example, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said in December that 51 percent of all HIV diagnoses were among blacks, who make up less than 13 percent of the population.
...
Another recent study by the American Council on Education showed that twice as many black women as men now attend college. Over the past decade, the high school graduation rate for black men has fallen to 43 percent, while that of black women has risen to 56 percent.
...
A report in June for the Alternative Schools Network found that in 2002 one in every four black men in the United States was permanently unemployed, a rate double that of white men and 70 percent higher than among Asian and Hispanic men.
...
In its most recent report on the nation's prison population, the Department of Justice found that at the end of 2003, over 9 percent of all black males aged 26 to 29 were incarcerated, compared to 2.6 percent of Hispanics and 1.1 percent of whites.

Reuters (http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=7784193)

Jesse Jackson once said, "Penn State $4000 a year; State Pen $20,000 a year".

It's your choice America.

The Black community is not blame-less in all this though. Check out the numbers of black man infected with HIV, and then check out the numbers of black women also infected. There is a very, very large population of black men leading closet homosexual lives and getting themselves infected in the process. Then, they bring the virus home to the women with whom they're also having sex.

There is a frightening amount of hatred and denial about homosexuals in the African-American community, and these men are much more afraid of being outed as being gay than they are of getting HIV.

It's terrible. A kind of self-annihilation. There's a racial holocaust taking place in America, and black men are the ones who are leading it.

[Clandestino]

you gotta stop blaming everyone else and get to work yourself at some point... there are many successful black people...if some can do it, the rest can too...

[attyjackiechiles]

The American black male needs to stop blaming society for their own failures and take responsibility and control of their lives and stop giving in to the crack pipe and the gangsta rap.

The excuses are ridiculous, scandalous.....outrageous!!

[Sec24Row7]

WTF? Black men are gay that's why they have a higher percentage of HIV?

WHAT?

[2centsworth]

There is a very, very large population of black men leading closet homosexual lives and getting themselves infected in the proces

Don't forget sharing needles and having sex with drug addicts.

[MannyIsGod]

Reform always starts from within, but rarely does it happen without outside help.

I'm so tired of the attitude in here when it comes to helping minorities. Sure, they can and eventually will do it on their own, but if everyone ignores the problem and waits for it to fix itself the solution is going to come at a much higher cost to everyone.

[Hook Dem]

Reform always starts from within, but rarely does it happen without outside help.

I'm so tired of the attitude in here when it comes to helping minorities. Sure, they can and eventually will do it on their own, but if everyone ignores the problem and waits for it to fix itself the solution is going to come at a much higher cost to everyone.
What do you suggest Manny?

[2centsworth]

Reform always starts from within, but rarely does it happen without outside help. Rarely does what happen without outside help? To tell me I can't accomplish anything without the white man's help is fucking insulting.

Almost as ridiculous as my paycheck.


I'm so tired of the attitude in here when it comes to helping minorities. Sure, they can and eventually will do it on their own, but if everyone ignores the problem and waits for it to fix itself the solution is going to come at a much higher cost to everyone. Forget about the Great Society Programs of the past, they do not work. Instead, support the people who are making it. There are a ton of minorities who are self-made successes. Help duplicate their paths. You're not going to like this but for me it's GOD, Love of Country, and sense of repsonsiblity to my family.

I know you're well intentioned Manny so don't take me wrong. I'm just pretty passionate about this particular subject.

[Guru of Nothing]

Rarely does what happen without outside help? To tell me I can't accomplish anything without the white man's help is fucking insulting.

Almost as ridiculous as my paycheck.


http://www.boomspeed.com/mateo/popcorn.gif

[2centsworth]

http://www.boomspeed.com/mateo/popcorn.gif

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smismile.gif

[MannyIsGod]

Hook, you'll get your answer in this post as well...


Rarely does what happen without outside help? To tell me I can't accomplish anything without the white man's help is fucking insulting.

Almost as ridiculous as my paycheck.


Review my last post again, specificly:

Sure, they can and eventually will do it on their own

I never said "you can't accomplish anything without the white man's help". And I never intended to make this some kind of racial pissing contest.



[/b] Forget about the Great Society Programs of the past, they do not work. Instead, support the people who are making it. There are a ton of minorities who are self-made successes. Help duplicate their paths. You're not going to like this but for me it's GOD, Love of Country, and sense of repsonsiblity to my family.

I know you're well intentioned Manny so don't take me wrong. I'm just pretty passionate about this particular subject.

What does any of that have to do with helping the African American community? I'm glad you are motivated to make yourself a success. I agree we should support the people that are making it, but how are they not getting support?

you say:


Help duplicate their paths

And I absolutely agree. But you also said:


Rarely does what happen without outside help? To tell me I can't accomplish anything without the white man's help is fucking insulting.

Do you want to stop contradicting yourself within a single post?

I honestly don't care what motivates you. I think everyone is naturally motivated torwards success, but I believe minorities in poverty have larger hurdles to overcome torwards success and I believe that those larger hurdles are a direct result of government policies and actions over the past 400 years.

I therefore believe it is not only in this society's bes interest to do everything it can to help these communities achieve and equitable standard of living but it's obligation. I'm not talking abour reperations or any other nonsense of the like.

I am talking about much increased spending to raise education standards (bringing them up to par would be nice) and increased spending to raise the level of infrastructure in minority communities.

I'm not talking about welfare programs with the short sighted goal of keeping the heads of mere individuals above water, I am talking about sweeping reform that will have change the quality of life for generations.

Passionate? Ha!

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.boomspeed.com/mateo/popcorn.gif

Damn Straight. Pull up a damn chair.

[2centsworth]

Manny,

Please clarify this statement?


Reform always starts from within, but rarely does it happen without outside help.
What are you trying to say?


What does any of that have to do with helping the African American community?
God, Love of Country, and a sense of family responsibilities is what's missing and directly responsible for what ill's the African American Community. I think Martin Luther King would agree with that.


I am talking about much increased spending to raise education standards (bringing them up to par would be nice) and increased spending to raise the level of infrastructure in minority communities.
I like, are you flexible enough to allow religion to play a role. One nation under God?



Passionate? Ha!
Never questioned your passion, but since you asked yes. I'm a living example of someone who's made it out of the ghetto. How about you?

[Kori Ellis]

^^^ I'm totally confused.

TwoCentsWorth, aren't you a white or hispanic guy?

[sbsquared]

The black community has been getting "help" for the past 40 years from the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. What has it gotten them? Maybe they should stop listening to "leaders" who are only out for their own personal agendas and start listening to the black leaders and pastors who are genuinely willing to help.

It all starts with getting rid of the gangsta mentality and taking some responsibility for your own life!

[Useruser666]

The Black community is not blame-less in all this though. Check out the numbers of black man infected with HIV, and then check out the numbers of black women also infected. There is a very, very large population of black men leading closet homosexual lives and getting themselves infected in the process. Then, they bring the virus home to the women with whom they're also having sex.

^^^That is some crazy shit Dan. Where do you get these facts? Or is this just part of your personal beliefs?

I have seen a dislike for homosexuals and women in your previous posts, but now African Americans too??

[Opinionater]

In my opinion there are many, many men of all colors living closet homosexual lives.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny,

Please clarify this statement?


What are you trying to say?



I am saying that while every group has the ability to make life better for themselves, they rarely (if ever) do so on their own.

Examples:

American Revolution
End Of Slavery
Civil Rights Movment of the 60s

And every conservatives wet dream...
Iraq



God, Love of Country, and a sense of family responsibilities is what's missing and directly responsible for what ill's the African American Community. I think Martin Luther King would agree with that.


Directly responsible? No, they are not. Are you telling me that what seperates poor communities from those who are better off are religion of patriotism? I do think that a sense of family responsiblity is healthy torwards a society, but I think the apperence of that is directly related to other factors.

Or better yet, are you going to tell me that white suburbia is more religions and more patriotic than poor neighborhoods? Or which religion is the one that will lead poor communities to prosperity? Any of them?

No, the things you listed are not what is directly responsible for the status of the African American community. There are many factors that are the cause, and number one on the list is a lower standard of education.

An Education is the foundation for which everything you accomplish in today's world is built upon. When you lack the cornerstone for a strong foundation, you lack the means from which to build yourself up.

I'm sure religion can give certain people guidance and provide ample motivation torwards being a better person, but an education is needed none the less.

Number 2 on my list, government neglect. Governments find it really easy to ignore those constituats in poor neighborhoods. Take a drive down the any west side or east side neighborhood and compare that to something you find off of bitters road. The only place you see government money infused into poor neighborhoods is where you see projects such as the SBC center. The SBC center has caused a LOT of road improvements in that area in the span of a few years.




I like, are you flexible enough to allow religion to play a role. One nation under God?


Churches are already free to play a role in this, privately. There is no need to involve them in any future programs the government uses.


Never questioned your passion, but since you asked yes. I'm a living example of someone who's made it out of the ghetto. How about you?

I apologize. I shouldn't have done that and I was out of line.

I've made it out of the ghetto. I grew up in the heart of the west side on commerce and 36th street, but with my mom's foresight of getting me out of there, I think I've made myself better than I would have had I stayed there. Oh, there's LOTS of room for improvement, though.

[Clandestino]

The black community has been getting "help" for the past 40 years from the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. What has it gotten them? Maybe they should stop listening to "leaders" who are only out for their own personal agendas and start listening to the black leaders and pastors who are genuinely willing to help.

It all starts with getting rid of the gangsta mentality and taking some responsibility for your own life!

haha..yeah, pick your pants up, put your hat on straight, find a jacket that fits you, and start acting like a man..

[MannyIsGod]

The black community has been getting "help" for the past 40 years from the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. What has it gotten them? Maybe they should stop listening to "leaders" who are only out for their own personal agendas and start listening to the black leaders and pastors who are genuinely willing to help.

It all starts with getting rid of the gangsta mentality and taking some responsibility for your own life!

I hope you're not a doctor, because doctors who treat symptoms and not diseases generaly don't cure many patients.

[attyjackiechiles]

It all begins with the proper attitude and it begins at home. Black parents need to push education and black leaders in the community need to give back when they "make it".

Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Barrack Obama and others need to visit and speak to our youth that they have the power to break the chains of racism and poverty through their will and perserverance.

They need to learn to turn obstacles into motivation.

Using them as excuses is lame....a damn shame!

[2centsworth]

I am saying that while every group has the ability to make life better for themselves, they rarely (if ever) do so on their own.

Examples:

American Revolution
End Of Slavery
Civil Rights Movment of the 60s

Don't forget what all those movements accomplished. FREEDOM!

Do innercity kids have the freedom to succeed? there are some things we as a society should do, but on this I think you and I agree more than disagree. I just think if you look at the movements you mentioned, the moral arguments were always rooted in biblical principals.



No, they are not. Are you telling me that what seperates poor communities from those who are better off are religion of patriotism?

If your definition of poor is more than money, yes I am. Combine that with a sense of family responsibility and you have a winning combination. There are enough resources available to everyone no matter who you are.

As to the rest of your points, there's not much I disagree with.

[2centsworth]

^^^ I'm totally confused.

TwoCentsWorth, aren't you a white or hispanic guy?
Puerto Rican. The conversation was more about minorities and the innercity.

[MannyIsGod]

The revolution wasn't fought for freedom. It was about equality. The same thing with The civil rights movement. That was not about freedom, it was about equality.

And I'm glad we agree on most of that.

[2centsworth]

The revolution wasn't fought for freedom. It was about equality. The same thing with The civil rights movement. That was not about freedom, it was about equality.

And I'm glad we agree on most of that.
Dude, you're wrong. The revolution was about freedom from the Brits. We Created our own country.

Civil rights was about freedom to be and do as you please no matter the color of your skin, not to be equal to white people.


On that we disagree.

[GoldToe]

Civil rights = Equal rights.

[Kori Ellis]

Puerto Rican. The conversation was more about minorities and the innercity.

Yes, I realize what the conversation was about. But you have to realize that you were intentionally giving the impression that you had fought the plight of a Black man and risen above it to succeed.

[Kori Ellis]

^^^That is some crazy shit Dan. Where do you get these facts? Or is this just part of your personal beliefs?

I have seen a dislike for homosexuals and women in your previous posts, but now African Americans too??

Actually Dan is right about a lot of bisexual black men spreading AIDS to their women because the women don't have any idea they are bisexual. It's a phenomenon called living on the "downlow" that has become popular in many black communities and there have been many articles and exposes about it.

[Useruser666]

Actually Dan is right about a lot of bisexual black men spreading AIDS to their women because the women don't have any idea they are bisexual. It's a phenomenon called living on the "downlow" that has become popular in many black communities and there have been many articles and exposes about it.

But do you believe this type of behavior accounts entirely for the difference in percetages?

[Kori Ellis]

But do you believe this type of behavior accounts entirely for the difference in percetages?

Of course not. IV drug use, etc are factors. But living on the downlow is a lot more prevalent than most people think.

When I was living in Los Angeles, I knew quite a few "heterosexual" black guys, mostly athetes on various levels, all of whom had wives or girlfriends but liked to "have dick" every once in a while.

None of them that it was a big deal, nor considered themselves gay or bisexual. And none of their wives/girlfriends knew about it. I even know a girl who is HIV-positive and has only had sex with two partners in her life. Unfortunately the second one was on the downlow and had HIV.

[Useruser666]

I guess my comments were more pointed towards what I percieve as undertones in Dan's posts.

[timvp]

We don't have those fairy bros here in Texas, mang.

:vomit

[NameDropper]

I've heard that living on the "downlow" has been around for ages.

[bigzak25]

man, they think of cool names for EVERYTHING these days.....

i'm hittin maryjane on the downlow....it can't be too downlow if people know about it though right?

i can't imagine a brutha coming out and telling someone, yeah, i smoke a little cock on the side....but keep that on the downlow, ya dig....


as for the article. it's a free country. survival of the fittest. too many people with NOTHING to start with have gone on to greatness, for others to be making excuses about inequities and inadequate entitlements....

[NameDropper]

No shit dawg, I ain't never heard no brotha talk about no "downlow" shit.
Now they do like to talk shit about their booty calls. Maybe their talkin' about backdoor booty calls?

[3rdCoast]

Whatever, it starts at home. fags or no fags, aids or no aids. drugs,violence,etc. it starts at home with 16 year old hood rats and their thug ass baby daddy having kids at 15 and 16 and its babies havin babies. its all on the parents.

[GoldToe]

As the snow flies
On a cold and gray chicago mornin’
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghetto
And his mama cries
’cause if there’s one thing that she don’t need
It’s another hungry mouth to feed
In the ghetto

People, don’t you understand
The child needs a helping hand
Or he’ll grow to be an angry young man some day
Take a look at you and me,
Are we too blind to see,
Do we simply turn our heads
And look the other way

Well the world turns
And a hungry little boy with a runny nose
Plays in the street as the cold wind blows
In the ghetto

And his hunger burns
So he starts to roam the streets at night
And he learns how to steal
And he learns how to fight
In the ghetto

Then one night in desperation
A young man breaks away
He buys a gun, steals a car,
Tries to run, but he don’t get far
And his mama cries

As a crowd gathers ’round an angry young man
Face down on the street with a gun in his hand
In the ghetto

As her young man dies,
On a cold and gray chicago mornin’,
Another little baby child is born
In the ghetto



(words & music by scott davis)

[xrayzebra]

Of course not. IV drug use, etc are factors. But living on the downlow is a lot more prevalent than most people think.

When I was living in Los Angeles, I knew quite a few "heterosexual" black guys, mostly athetes on various levels, all of whom had wives or girlfriends but liked to "have dick" every once in a while.

None of them that it was a big deal, nor considered themselves gay or bisexual. And none of their wives/girlfriends knew about it. I even know a girl who is HIV-positive and has only had sex with two partners in her life. Unfortunately the second one was on the downlow and had HIV.

Kori, you say they are "heterosexual". Wow, where have I been, I thought
same sex folks were "homosexual". And how is this type of conduct, sex, fit
into the the "downtrodden" minorities. Do you believe that HIV was caused
by the white race just to do away with the Black race? I understand that
is also being put out "on the street".

[3rdCoast]

Kori, you say they are "heterosexual". Wow, where have I been, I thought
same sex folks were "homosexual". And how is this type of conduct, sex, fit
into the the "downtrodden" minorities. Do you believe that HIV was caused
by the white race just to do away with the Black race? I understand that
is also being put out "on the street".

yea im so sure that whites are so out to get black people that they want to kill them. get over it. its skin color son. no one cares about if ur black, white green, pink, or purple. dont be a moron, no one is making hiv to kill blacks.

[2centsworth]

Yes, I realize what the conversation was about. But you have to realize that you were intentionally giving the impression that you had fought the plight of a Black man and risen above it to succeed.
Where did I do that? You read something that wasn't there.

[xrayzebra]

yea im so sure that whites are so out to get black people that they want to kill them. get over it. its skin color son. no one cares about if ur black, white green, pink, or purple. dont be a moron, no one is making hiv to kill blacks.

Huh????? What are you talking about?

[3rdCoast]

if anyone thinks hiv is being put out to kill blacks they are morons.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori, you say they are "heterosexual". Wow, where have I been, I thought
same sex folks were "homosexual".

Umm.. that's why I quoted the word "heterosexual" because I don't believe you can call yourself hetero when you are a guy having sex with a guy. But they don't perceive themselves as gay or bi.

Here's a true story.

When I lived in Los Angeles, I had a friend who met this other guy at the gym. They became friends. Both guys had live-in girlfriends. The two guys hung out together, went to the gym, watched games, went out to eat, regular guy stuff.

One day the two guys went out to grab a bite to eat, on the way back home the guy asked my friend if he wanted to go back to his place for "a massage". At first, my friend was confused ... he didn't know what this guy could have possibly meant. After all, the guy wasn't gay ... he lived with his girlfriend. My friend didn't really respond to the comment at first, other than to just say "No."

When he got home, he called me and told me the story. I figured he must have been wrong .. after all I had met the guy and his girlfriend several times. So I told my friend to call the guy and ask what he meant; maybe it was some kind of misunderstanding.

When he did, the guy said, "Yeah, sorry if I surprised you. My girlfriend is out of town and I'm just in the mood for some dick." My friend was like WTF, I didn't know you were bisexual. The guy told him that he wasn't. But that a lot of the guys at the gym were the same way ... that sometimes women got a little boring and it was better to just be with a man. :wow

This was in a predominantly black area of Los Angeles. My friend turned down the guy's advances, but after checking it out with others in the gym and in the area, found out that ...yes, this was not too unpopular of a mindset. A lot of the guys were involved in the same type of activities while keeping a girlfriend or wife at home.

This was in 1990. Since then these social circles of young, black men who obviously have issues with their sexual identity has grown and grown. I've read many articles on the net regarding this subject. They either don't admit they are gay because of shame, or are so confused that they don't even consider themselves gay. A lot of females have contracted HIV from these guys in these groups.

I'm not defending NBADan and his claims in the original post of this thread. I'm just saying that this "downlow" behavior among young, black males in major cities is not as outrageously unusual as most people would think.


Do you believe that HIV was caused by the white race just to do away with the Black race? I understand that is also being put out "on the street".

Hell no.

[2centsworth]

Civil rights = Equal rights. civil rights
pl.n. The rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship, especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and by subsequent acts of Congress, including civil liberties, due process, equal protection of the laws, and freedom from discrimination.


No where does it say rights equal to white people.

[MannyIsGod]

I thinkyou're using freedom a bit loosely. If you use it in that manner, it could be argued that every time the court makes a ruling torwards equality we've been "freed". I'm sure that rings true on a certain abstract level, but I think it's a pretty loose using of the word.

But that's just semantics.

[GoldToe]

civil rights
pl.n. The rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship, especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and by subsequent acts of Congress, including civil liberties, due process, equal protection of the laws, and freedom from discrimination.


No where does it say rights equal to white people.

At the time the did not have "equal" rights as whites, thus the "white only" signs.
Yes, civil rights are the rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship. Blacks were citizens and were not receiving the same rights as whites, thus making them unequal.
But if you want to argue over the definition go ahead.

[xrayzebra]

I thinkyou're using freedom a bit loosely. If you use it in that manner, it could be argued that every time the court makes a ruling torwards equality we've been "freed". I'm sure that rings true on a certain abstract level, but I think it's a pretty loose using of the word.

But that's just semantics.

Manny, I know you don't want to talk to me, but another question:
Don't you sometimes think that "freedom" and "equality" is a state of mind?

Think about something, especially in San Antonio, look around you at the
people who own businesses. How many are "white" and how many are
other races. Bye the way "white" is a terrible term, because there really
isn't a white race. And another side note, I am a Texan, borned, raised
and live here. The point: I ant white I is a Texan. So there! My point
I think you are beating a dead horse, equality and freedom are well and
thriving and racism is also well and thriving, always has been always will be
look around the world young man. Muslims killing Muslims, Christians putting
down other Christians and some people just plain don't like other people.
Hell I am prejudice, some people I just damn well don't like.

[Nbadan]

No where does it say rights equal to white people.

Whoa, and here I thought that Jim Crow laws were out-dated.

[2centsworth]

I thinkyou're using freedom a bit loosely. If you use it in that manner, it could be argued that every time the court makes a ruling torwards equality we've been "freed". I'm sure that rings true on a certain abstract level, but I think it's a pretty loose using of the word.

But that's just semantics.
We have certain inalienable rights granted by God. IMO, the Civil Rights movement freed the oppressed to excercise their rights. Just so happened in general White People already had those freedoms.

I think it's a very important distinction, because it shifts the burden of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to the individual and not based upon how well everyone else is doing.

[Useruser666]

Some animals are equal, some are more equal than others.

[2centsworth]

Whoa, and here I thought that Jim Crow laws were out-dated.
You essentially believe that unless it's white it's inferior.

"it never ceases to amaze me.... that the courts are so willing to assume that anything that is perdominatly black must be inferior." Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, I know you don't want to talk to me, but another question:
Don't you sometimes think that "freedom" and "equality" is a state of mind?

Think about something, especially in San Antonio, look around you at the
people who own businesses. How many are "white" and how many are
other races. Bye the way "white" is a terrible term, because there really
isn't a white race. And another side note, I am a Texan, borned, raised
and live here. The point: I ant white I is a Texan. So there! My point
I think you are beating a dead horse, equality and freedom are well and
thriving and racism is also well and thriving, always has been always will be
look around the world young man. Muslims killing Muslims, Christians putting
down other Christians and some people just plain don't like other people.
Hell I am prejudice, some people I just damn well don't like.

I have no problem talking to you.

Schools in minority neighborhoods have been underfunded compared to schools in non minority neighborhoods. You need not look any further than the way the state university underfunded border schools up until very recently.

And even at that point, there has been no atempt to bring the general populous in these areas up to an equitable level. The dominant culture in our country had a big ass head start, and you don't erase that simply by allowing the other people to run in the race. You help the other people catch up.

I'm not advocating holding the more well off part of our society back, I'm adocating added help to bring those who aren't there yet up to speed.

Freedom can, in a poetic sense, be a state of mind. However equality is something that immplies a measurement, and a measurement shows the poor in this country are not equal and do not have the same opportunities.

[MannyIsGod]

We have certain inalienable rights granted by God. IMO, the Civil Rights movement freed the oppressed to excercise their rights. Just so happened in general White People already had those freedoms.

I think it's a very important distinction, because it shifts the burden of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to the individual and not based upon how well everyone else is doing.

I agree that we all have those rights, and the civil rights movement finally acknowledged that.

But what happened before that civil rights act could not be erased right way, and the governemtn should have, and should do, everything in it's power to bring those people whom it's laws harmed up to equitable standards.

We're not talking about people who came to this country for an opportunity to build themselves up, we're talking about a culture that was supressed economicly and socially by the government and it's policies. They were wronged

If am choking someone to the point that it causes damage, my liability is not simpy to stop choking them, but to fix and remedy what harm the choking has caused.

[2centsworth]

We're not talking about people who came to this country for an opportunity to build themselves up, we're talking about a culture that was supressed economicly and socially by the government and it's policies. They were wronged

If am choking someone to the point that it causes damage, my liability is not simpy to stop choking them, but to fix and remedy what harm the choking has caused.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, the above is an encroachment on someone's individual freedoms and not an equality with white people issue.

[MannyIsGod]

You don't think that minorities personal freedoms were encroached on by the government pre civil rights?

BTW, I dig your Bill Maher quote. I have yet to catch an episode of Real Time this season, I'd forgotten it was back on the air.

[2centsworth]

You don't think that minorities personal freedoms were encroached on by the government pre civil rights?

Of course, that's why I think the battle was about freedom and not equality. Hell, I don't even want to be equal I just want my God given rights.

Thanks for the compliment on Bill Maher, I don't like his show but at least he tries to be intellectually honest.

[Useruser666]

So Manny, are you saying the government needs to pay reparations?

[MannyIsGod]

Chris, I want you to go back and read my posts. You bitch about me saying you don't read, but godamn, I addressed that word for fucknig word.

[Nbadan]

Some animals are equal, some are more equal than others.

So now we're animals?

[Useruser666]

Try reading Animal Farm Dan.

[Useruser666]

Chris, I want you to go back and read my posts. You bitch about me saying you don't read, but godamn, I addressed that word for fucknig word.

This is what you said that made me ask that question of you....


And even at that point, there has been no atempt to bring the general populous in these areas up to an equitable level. The dominant culture in our country had a big ass head start, and you don't erase that simply by allowing the other people to run in the race. You help the other people catch up.

I'm not advocating holding the more well off part of our society back, I'm adocating added help to bring those who aren't there yet up to speed.


But what happened before that civil rights act could not be erased right way, and the governemtn should have, and should do, everything in it's power to bring those people whom it's laws harmed up to equitable standards.



If am choking someone to the point that it causes damage, my liability is not simpy to stop choking them, but to fix and remedy what harm the choking has caused.

Those three quotes lead me to believe that you were talking about reparations or maybe some special treatment from the government. What do you think should be done?

[Spurminator]

What bothers me about rectifying the sins of our past through some kind of special treatment policy is that I don't think we'll ever know when it should stop. When do we say, "Okay, I think we've made up for the crimes of slavery and inequality from our nation's beginnings"? As much as I dislike the idea of reparations, I think it's probably a better option than some long-term solution that may go on indefinitely. I prefer a one-time lump-sum guilt tax.

[Jekka]

it's not a better option. You spend money untill the infrastructure and education in all poor neighborhoods (not just minority ones, but this addresses the issue across the board) untill they are on an equal footing.

This actually doens't have to be a race issue, but rather a poverty issue. The fact of the matter however, is that the demographics of the people in poverty has a lot to do with the history of race relations in this country.

-Manuel

[Spurminator]

At what point are they on "equal footing" though?

[2centsworth]

it's not a better option. You spend money untill the infrastructure and education in all poor neighborhoods (not just minority ones, but this addresses the issue across the board) untill they are on an equal footing.

This actually doens't have to be a race issue, but rather a poverty issue. The fact of the matter however, is that the demographics of the people in poverty has a lot to do with the history of race relations in this country.

-Manuel
Per capita the US spends more money than any other country, but we still get our asses handed to us in math and science.

The issue is a little more complicated.

[Ginobilly]

Umm.. that's why I quoted the word "heterosexual" because I don't believe you can call yourself hetero when you are a guy having sex with a guy. But they don't perceive themselves as gay or bi.

Here's a true story.

When I lived in Los Angeles, I had a friend who met this other guy at the gym. They became friends. Both guys had live-in girlfriends. The two guys hung out together, went to the gym, watched games, went out to eat, regular guy stuff.

One day the two guys went out to grab a bite to eat, on the way back home the guy asked my friend if he wanted to go back to his place for "a massage". At first, my friend was confused ... he didn't know what this guy could have possibly meant. After all, the guy wasn't gay ... he lived with his girlfriend. My friend didn't really respond to the comment at first, other than to just say "No."

When he got home, he called me and told me the story. I figured he must have been wrong .. after all I had met the guy and his girlfriend several times. So I told my friend to call the guy and ask what he meant; maybe it was some kind of misunderstanding.

When he did, the guy said, "Yeah, sorry if I surprised you. My girlfriend is out of town and I'm just in the mood for some dick." My friend was like WTF, I didn't know you were bisexual. The guy told him that he wasn't. But that a lot of the guys at the gym were the same way ... that sometimes women got a little boring and it was better to just be with a man. :wow

This was in a predominantly black area of Los Angeles. My friend turned down the guy's advances, but after checking it out with others in the gym and in the area, found out that ...yes, this was not too unpopular of a mindset. A lot of the guys were involved in the same type of activities while keeping a girlfriend or wife at home.

This was in 1990. Since then these social circles of young, black men who obviously have issues with their sexual identity has grown and grown. I've read many articles on the net regarding this subject. They either don't admit they are gay because of shame, or are so confused that they don't even consider themselves gay. A lot of females have contracted HIV from these guys in these groups.

I'm not defending NBADan and his claims in the original post of this thread. I'm just saying that this "downlow" behavior among young, black males in major cities is not as outrageously unusual as most people would think.



Hell no.


Yeah, there are some guys that are like that in St.Phillips/east side. When I went there to take some basics a year an half ago I met some guys that were "downlow" guys in my basketball class. You would of never guessed they were Bi when you looked at them. Tall, Muscular, gangsta, slam dunking du rag wearing type. And they were always flirting with the white and hispanic girls in class hoping to get some booty. And one of them told me one time if I wanted to go to his crib one day to "hang out" and smoke some weed and listen to music. Then some guy told me from class told me that that guy was Bisexual and liked to push shits in and suck cock once in while. And then he told me that some of the brothas here in school were closets too but they weren't gay, they just liked the company of men once in a whiel. I was all like, OH hell no!!!!!!

[Ginobilly]

I aslo here that there are some "downlow" closet bi's in the NBA, as much as 30% by random players estimates. Scotty Pippen is rumored to be one of those and so is Richard Jefferson.

Probably Steve Francis and Mobley were "downlow" guys too? Those guys were like always together and hugging and kissing on court with way too much intimacy sometimes.

[Ginobilly]

Who do ya'll think on the spurs is a fag/closet/downlow guy? I never seen Rasho with a girl before. Every one on the spurs has a chick except for him.

[MannyIsGod]

And the topic has officialy gone to hell.

[Kori Ellis]

Who do ya'll think on the spurs is a fag/closet/downlow guy? I never seen Rasho with a girl before. Every one on the spurs has a chick except for him.

Many people have seen Rasho with women all the time.

Get back on the topic.

[Spurminator]

My last question would be a good start...

The reason I ask is that while in the beginning, the reforms may be well-intentioned, when do they end? Any attempt at a return to normalsy would be met with a ton of resistance and race baiting.

Now, I'm not saying we should resist reforms BECAUSE of the lack of an "end point"... only that we should set a firm Finish Line before putting them into effect.

[MannyIsGod]

If it's a system that specificaly targers minorities due to what has happend in the past, a begining point would be when minorities don't make up dispraportionate percentages in povert and other social problems.

[Clandestino]

ginobilly seems to have a real fascination with bisexuality...bet he is one too.

[Useruser666]

If it's a system that specificaly targers minorities due to what has happend in the past, a begining point would be when minorities don't make up dispraportionate percentages in povert and other social problems.

I think the problem with that Manny is that some of those social programs breed a continuing dependance on them.

[Ginobilly]

ginobilly seems to have a real fascination with bisexuality...bet he is one too.

your sisters would tell you otherwise. :hat :fro

[Clandestino]

your sisters would tell you otherwise. :hat :fro

i only have a couple gay brothers who dress like women! i knew you were homo!

[Extra Stout]

Yeah, there are some guys that are like that in St.Phillips/east side. When I went there to take some basics a year an half ago I met some guys that were "downlow" guys in my basketball class. You would of never guessed they were Bi when you looked at them. Tall, Muscular, gangsta, slam dunking du rag wearing type. And they were always flirting with the white and hispanic girls in class hoping to get some booty. And one of them told me one time if I wanted to go to his crib one day to "hang out" and smoke some weed and listen to music. Then some guy told me from class told me that that guy was Bisexual and liked to push shits in and suck cock once in while. And then he told me that some of the brothas here in school were closets too but they weren't gay, they just liked the company of men once in a whiel. I was all like, OH hell no!!!!!!

I'm not sure what to think about the origins of "the down low," except that the men who infect their girlfriends/wives are scum.

One idea is that thanks to the virulent anti-gay culture in black America, gay men are in denial about their sexuality, and this is how it is manifested.

Another idea is that thanks to the out-of-control culture of male sexual entitlement in black America, nominally straight men delve into incredibly dangerous and stupid behaviors, including "the down low."

[MannyIsGod]

I think the problem with that Manny is that some of those social programs breed a continuing dependance on them.

Chris, I honestly hate doing this...

Read what I said in one of my first posts. I referenced that I'm not supporting short sighted programs that target individuals and do nothing more than help people keep their heads above water.

I'm talking about lifting up a society, not individuals.

[Useruser666]

I don't think any of those programs really work unless their goal is push the people off them.

[MannyIsGod]

No, the programs I am advocating don't give out money/capital to individuals. The money goes into improving the services and facilities as well as the infrastructure that these communities use.