"If we cannot put solar power plants in the Mojave desert...

[RandomGuy]

...I don't know where the hell we can put it,"
--Governator Schwarzenegger

I am generally for environmental protection, but at some point there MUST be a trade off. This looks like something that would require such give.

Feinstein seeks block solar power from desert land
Kevin Freking, Associated Press Writer – Sat Mar 21, 7:21 am ET

WASHINGTON – California's Mojave Desert may seem ideally suited for solar energy production, but concern over what several proposed projects might do to the aesthetics of the region and its tortoise population is setting up a potential clash between conservationists and companies seeking to develop renewable energy.

Nineteen companies have submitted applications to build solar or wind facilities on a parcel of 500,000 desert acres, but Sen. Dianne Feinstein said Friday such development would violate the spirit of what conservationists had intended when they donated much of the land to the public.

Feinstein said Friday she intends to push legislation that would turn the land into a national monument, which would allow for existing uses to continue while preventing future development.

The Wildlands Conservancy orchestrated the government's purchase of the land between 1999-2004. It negotiated a discount sale from the real estate arm of the former Santa Fe and Southern Pacific Railroad and then contributed $40 million to help pay for the purchase. David Myers, the conservancy's executive director, said the solar projects would do great harm to the region's desert tortoise population.

"It would destroy the entire Mojave Desert ecosystem," said David Myers, executive director of The Wildlands Conservancy.

Feinstein said the lands in question were donated or purchased with the intent that they would be protected forever. But the Bureau of Land Management considers the land now open to all types of development, except mining. That policy led the state to consider large swaths of the land for future renewable energy production.

"This is unacceptable," Feinstein said in a letter to Interior Secretary Ken Salazar. "I urge you to direct the BLM to suspend any further consideration of leases to develop former railroad lands for renewable energy or for any other purpose."

In a speech last year, Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger complained about environmental concerns slowing down the approval of solar plants in California.

"If we cannot put solar power plants in the Mojave desert, I don't know where the hell we can put it," Schwarzenegger said at Yale University.

But Karen Douglas, chairman of the California Energy Commission, said Feinstein's proposal could be a "win-win" for energy and conservation. The governor's office said Douglas was speaking on the administration's behalf.

"The opportunity we see in the Feinstein bill is to jump-start our own efforts to find the best sites for development and to come up with a broader conservation plan that mitigates the impact of the development," Douglas said.

Douglas said that if the national monument lines were drawn without consideration of renewable energy then a conflict was likely, but it's early enough in the planning process that she's confident the state will be able to get more solar and wind projects up and running without hurting the environment.

"We think we can do both," Douglas said. "We think this is an opportunity to accelerate both."

Greg Miller of the Bureau of Land Management said there are 14 solar energy and five wind energy projects that have submitted applications seeking to develop on what's referred to as the former Catellus lands. None of the projects are close to being approved, he said.

The land lies in the southeast corner of California, between the existing Mojave National Preserve on the north and Joshua Tree National Park on the south.

"They all have to go through a rigorous environmental analysis now," Miller said. "It will be at best close to two years out before we get some of these grants approved."

Feinstein's spokesman, Gil Duran, said the senator looks forward to working with the governor and the Interior Department on the issue.

"There's plenty of room in America's deserts for the bold expansion of renewable energy projects," Duran said
----------------------------
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090321/ap_on_re_us/desert_preservation

[DarrinS]

Greenies want solar power and windmills, just not in their backyards.

[coyotes_geek]

Green on green violence brewing in California.

[balli]

I don't know what I think, but I know all of Nevada and a lot of western Utah is just a shit storm of worthless land and diseased jackrabbits, so if they could adopt that land instead, :tu.

As it is, I have few qualms about the Mojave, but considering it's a Natl. Monument, I'm more worried about the precedent involved with just stripping the land of it's status without a review process. There's greater implications there, affecting more than just solar power in California.

[balli]

In fact, I don't even think Nevada should be a state anymore. I was disappointed by the admin's decision to shutter Yucca mtn. They should just turn Vegas into a state and turn the rest of Nevada into a multi-purpose anything goes dumping ground/wind turbine/solar plant for the rest of the nation. What a shit state.

[Blake]

Green on green violence brewing in California.

you have to watch out for the hybrid powered driveby shootings involving eco-friendly bullets that are recycable.

[coyotes_geek]

I don't know what I think, but I know all of Nevada and a lot of western Utah is just a shit storm of worthless land and diseased jackrabbits, so if they could adopt that land instead, :tu.

As it is, I have few qualms about the Mojave, but considering it's a Natl. Monument, I'm more worried about the precedent involved with just stripping the land of it's status without a review process. There's greater implications there, affecting more than just solar power in California.

I'm with you. It is important to recognize that "green energy" doesn't automatically equal "environmentally friendly". And I'm not sure we want to just automatically pave over our national parks and monuments with solar panels. That being said, the desert is a perfect place to put these things and when it comes to environmental reviews there's usually a way to tweak a plan to make things work.

And yes, the state of Nevada should be turned into one giant solar panel.

[coyotes_geek]

you have to watch out for the hybrid powered driveby shootings involving eco-friendly bullets that are recycable.

Those hybrid drivebys are especially dangerous because you can't even hear the car coming.

[DarrinS]

Those hybrid drivebys are especially dangerous because you can't even hear the car coming.


The hybrid driver would probably be hypermiling, so at least you could outrun him on foot.

[ChumpDumper]

Is that the only part of the Mojave suitable for this? I'm all for solar power, but those landowners donated the land specifically not to be developed. Sets a bad precedent for future donations.

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh well. Solar power plants are stupid anyway.

[coyotes_geek]

Is that the only part of the Mojave suitable for this? I'm all for solar power, but those landowners donated the land specifically not to be developed. Sets a bad precedent for future donations.

I was wondering that too. My guess is that the developers are interested in that land because they think they can get a better deal from the government than from an adjacent private landowner.

[balli]

Those hybrid drivebys are especially dangerous because you can't even hear the car coming.
:lol
What's that from? Weeds?

[Blake]

And yes, the state of Nevada should be turned into one giant solar panel.

and it still wouldn't be enough to power the glamorousness of Elton John's one red piano Vegas show

[RandomGuy]

Oh well. Solar power plants are stupid anyway.

What about solar concentrators using melted salts for thermal storage of energy?

That looks fairly promising, as it allows for 24 hour production of electricity from solar.

Solar, both photovoltaic and thermal, also is ideal for peak power generation.

[RandomGuy]

Greenies want solar power and windmills, just not in their backyards.

The mojave desert isn't anybody's backyard.

[balli]

What about solar concentrators using melted salts for thermal storage of energy?

That looks fairly promising, as it allows for 24 hour production of electricity from solar.

Solar, both photovoltaic and thermal, also is ideal for peak power generation.
I haven't heard much about em in the last little bit, but it is promising technology. I was going to say so, but I figured it would be lost on that dumbass cc anyways.

[101A]

Greenies want solar power and windmills, just not in their backyards.


It's beginning to appear that Greenies simply don't want progress, or ANY expansion at all. "No" to pretty much everything.

[CosmicCowboy]

I haven't heard much about em in the last little bit, but it is promising technology. I was going to say so, but I figured it would be lost on that dumbass cc anyways.

I love being called a dumbass by pimply faced punks.

Do you guys realize just how aggressively corrosive molten salts are? Even stainless steel wouldn't work. It's one thing doing it in the lab theoretically and a whole other thing doing it in the real world...

[ChumpDumper]

I think there should be incentives for developers to put micro solar and wind projects on their new buildings. Think if all the condo owners and office lessees in downtown Austin were able to lower their power bills using some turbines that catch the updrafts near the roofs, for example.

[MannyIsGod]

Green on green violence brewing in California.

:lmao

[balli]

I love being called a dumbass by pimply faced punks.
Uh, I'm close to 26 act about 35 and I've never had a mohawk. You on the other hand probably inherited your daddy's ranch and cash and you think that makes you into some sort of an old school cowboy. So we each have our opinions, don't we?


Do you guys realize just how aggressively corrosive molten salts are? Even stainless steel wouldn't work. It's one thing doing it in the lab theoretically and a whole other thing doing it in the real world...
As I understand, and I'm about as large a layman as ever, but I heard a long NPR story about a company making alloy reactors that potentially solve that issue. I don't remember what's in em, but they're promising.

[johnsmith]

Uh, I'm close to 26 act about 35

:lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

Uh, I'm close to 26 act about 35 and I've never had a mohawk. You on the other hand probably inherited your daddy's ranch and cash and you think that makes you into some sort of an old school cowboy. So we each have our opinions, don't we?


As I understand, and I'm about as large a layman as ever, but I heard a long NPR story about a company making alloy reactors that potentially solve that issue. I don't remember what's in em, but they're promising.

Wrong on both counts and I just happen to make my living in the heat exchange field, pressure vessels, steam and hot water systems, etc. so I may have a little more working knowledge of exactly what is involved from a technical perspective than you do.

[Extra Stout]

Oh well. Solar power plants are stupid anyway.
Oh well. Sour crude refineries are stupid anyway.


Do you guys realize just how aggressively corrosive molten salts are? Even stainless steel wouldn't work. It's one thing doing it in the lab theoretically and a whole other thing doing it in the real world...
Do you guys realize just how aggressively corrosive hydrogen sulfide is? Even stainless steel wouldn't work. It's one thing doing it in the lab theoretically and a whole other thing doing it in the real world...

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh well. Sour crude refineries are stupid anyway.


Do you guys realize just how aggressively corrosive hydrogen sulfide is? Even stainless steel wouldn't work. It's one thing doing it in the lab theoretically and a whole other thing doing it in the real world...

Solar cells on the roof of your house and localized storage are smart.

solar power plants are stupid.

And sure, acids are corrosive but with molten salts you are not only talking about dealing with corrosion resistance, but it also has to be able to withstand the 1000 degree temps...

The whole thing is about creating an exotic and expensive storage solution just to make a bad initial project premise work.

[Extra Stout]

Solar cells on the roof of your house and localized storage are smart.

solar power plants are stupid.

And sure, acids are corrosive but with molten salts you are not only talking about dealing with corrosion resistance, but it also has to be able to withstand the 1000 degree temps...

The whole thing is about creating an exotic and expensive storage solution just to make a bad initial project premise work.
Molten salt is not an uncommon heat transfer medium in certain commodity chemical processes.

I have direct work experience both in molten salt systems and in solar power. I'm calling your bluff. Concede.

[CosmicCowboy]

I have direct work experience both in molten salt systems and in solar power. I'm calling your bluff. Concede.

Slamming 24 ounce malt liquors at the beach doesn't qualify as experience in salt and solar systems.

[LnGrrrR]

Slamming 24 ounce malt liquors at the beach doesn't qualify as experience in salt and solar systems.

Ok, I have to give credit... that was a pretty good line. But if you had replaced "Malt liquors" with "Margaritas", then you would have had gold.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think malt liquor comes in amounts that small.

[Extra Stout]

Slamming 24 ounce malt liquors at the beach doesn't qualify as experience in salt and solar systems.
You work in a freaking fab shop and you thought that was going to be enough to snow everybody over. Oops.

The downside to solar power right now is that silicon photovoltaics are not all that efficient. You have to have the panels spread out over a large area to capture enough sunlight to make meaningful quantities of electricity. You need a place that has a lot of sunlight. You need a place that has low humidity, because humidity scatters the light more. Deserts qualify for all three of those requirements: wide-open, sunny, dry.

Solar-grade silicon is also a relatively expensive material (though talented engineers are working on changing that), so if somebody could find a way to concentrate the sunlight onto a smaller area of silicon, that would provide an advantage. A parabolic mirror does the trick. It helps to have the aforementioned wide-open area to accomodate these large mirrors. It is certainly more feasible to do that on an industrial scale than to do that on somebody's home.

Maybe when those talented engineers get the price down far enough, home-scale solar power can really take off. The talented engineers will like that because that probably means a bigger bonus.

Molten salt is highly corrosive, like a lot of common process chemicals are, but its heat-transfer properties in some applications are so advantageous as to justify the cost of the nickel-based alloys (moving back into an area where you are not talking out of your rectum quite so much) that hold up reasonably well in the service. I've seen far, far nastier streams that could eat up any grade of Hastelloy you want to throw at them in three months. Molten salt is nothing.

[DarrinS]

Maybe when those talented engineers get the price down far enough, home-scale solar power can really take off. The talented engineers will like that because that probably means a bigger bonus.



Maybe, but I'll bet it will be driven by the productive sector, not govt.

[Extra Stout]

Maybe, but I'll bet it will be driven by the productive sector, not govt.
JPL laid the ground work in the 1970's.

[DarrinS]

JPL laid the ground work in the 1970's.


I thought two guys at Bell Labs started it in the early 1950's.

[Extra Stout]

I thought two guys at Bell Labs started it in the early 1950's.
Cheap solar-grade silicon? Nope.

[CosmicCowboy]

Trinity University got a big federal grant to do a big parabolic array on their gymnasium/student center. Even with a lower temperature and non-corrosive fluid they could NEVER keep it operating. After about three years they literally junked the multi million dollar system.

[Extra Stout]

Trinity University got a big federal grant to do a big parabolic array on their gymnasium/student center. Even with a lower temperature and non-corrosive fluid they could NEVER keep it operating. After about three years they literally junked the multi million dollar system.
Thank you for your anecdote.

I have an anecdote too.

There was once this guy on an internet forum who worked in a fab shop. He always talks about the stock market and finance, so maybe he's a white-collar employee or a manager, but for all I know I sweeps the floors. He tried to pass himself off as an expert in a couple technical fields, where I actually am an expert, and was so vain he couldn't back down. After about twenty minutes he pretty much established himself as a complete douchebag.

From that, I can conclude that guys who do metal work in their garages are fine, but everyone who works in a fab shop is a douchebag.

[CosmicCowboy]

You work in a freaking fab shop and you thought that was going to be enough to snow everybody over. Oops.

The downside to solar power right now is that silicon photovoltaics are not all that efficient. You have to have the panels spread out over a large area to capture enough sunlight to make meaningful quantities of electricity. You need a place that has a lot of sunlight. You need a place that has low humidity, because humidity scatters the light more. Deserts qualify for all three of those requirements: wide-open, sunny, dry.

Solar-grade silicon is also a relatively expensive material (though talented engineers are working on changing that), so if somebody could find a way to concentrate the sunlight onto a smaller area of silicon, that would provide an advantage. A parabolic mirror does the trick. It helps to have the aforementioned wide-open area to accomodate these large mirrors. It is certainly more feasible to do that on an industrial scale than to do that on somebody's home.

Maybe when those talented engineers get the price down far enough, home-scale solar power can really take off. The talented engineers will like that because that probably means a bigger bonus.

Molten salt is highly corrosive, like a lot of common process chemicals are, but its heat-transfer properties in some applications are so advantageous as to justify the cost of the nickel-based alloys (moving back into an area where you are not talking out of your rectum quite so much) that hold up reasonably well in the service. I've seen far, far nastier streams that could eat up any grade of Hastelloy you want to throw at them in three months. Molten salt is nothing.

BTW, I don't "work in a fab shop" but apparently you feel that your vast experience grants you the right to sneer at anyone that disagrees with you.

Maybe someone will eventually build a working model of a parabolic array using molten salts as a storage medium, but it will be a similar human accomplishment to climbing Mount Everest...yeah, it's noble and took an amazing amount of effort but the basic question still arises...Why the fuck would anyone want to do it?

[balli]

BTW, I don't "work in a fab shop"
Quick question? Are you a college graduate?

Why the fuck would anyone want to do it?
Because most people aren't nihilists.

[MannyIsGod]

Slamming 24 ounce malt liquors at the beach doesn't qualify as experience in salt and solar systems.


BTW, I don't "work in a fab shop" but apparently you feel that your vast experience grants you the right to sneer at anyone that disagrees with you.




:lol

Quoted for hilarity.

[Extra Stout]

BTW, I don't "work in a fab shop" but apparently you feel that your vast experience grants you the right to sneer at anyone that disagrees with you.

Maybe someone will eventually build a working model of a parabolic array using molten salts as a storage medium, but it will be a similar human accomplishment to climbing Mount Everest...yeah, it's noble and took and amazing amount of effort but the basic question still arises...Why the fuck would anyone want to do it?

I don't sneer at someone who disagrees with me. I sneer at someone who plays the "expert" card, like you did with ballijuana. "Oh I know more about this than you do, let me throw around some technical jargon." You can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, so you baffle 'em with bullshit. And you thought it would shut everybody up. Oh, how smug you were.

So it turns out there is somebody who actually knows what he is talking about, who could call you out on it, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, you don't like it so much.

You got exposed as a fraud.

And it's so typically Republican too. You don't actually know jack shit about anything, but you figure you can throw out enough smart-sounding BS to trick the average layman. They do it with economics, foreign relations, social issues, what have you.

And you won't quit either. Just like Republicans won't stop with their vapid talking points, you'll go on making it sound like a relatively common industrial process being applied in a new way is 'Mount Everest.' Except, unlike Republicans, you're not lying as a means to an end. You're lying simply because you're too narcissistic to back down.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yes, If it really makes a difference I am a college graduate with a hybrid engineering/construction degree and graduated summma cum laude.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't sneer at someone who disagrees with me. I sneer at someone who plays the "expert" card, like you did with ballijuana. "Oh I know more about this than you do, let me throw around some technical jargon." You can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, so you baffle 'em with bullshit. And you thought it would shut everybody up. Oh, how smug you were.

So it turns out there is somebody who actually knows what he is talking about, who could call you out on it, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, you don't like it so much.

You got exposed as a fraud.

And it's so typically Republican too. You don't actually know jack shit about anything, but you figure you can throw out enough smart-sounding BS to trick the average layman. They do it with economics, foreign relations, social issues, what have you.

And you won't quit either. Just like Republicans won't stop with their vapid talking points, you'll go on making it sound like a relatively common industrial process being applied in a new way is 'Mount Everest.' Except, unlike Republicans, you're not lying as a means to an end. You're lying simply because you're too narcissistic to back down.

And my company actually works on industrial heat exchange processes, steam, hot oil, etc. both in the structural pressure vessel side and the control side. And I don't sweep the floor, I own the motherfucker.

[johnsmith]

I don't sneer at someone who disagrees with me. I sneer at someone who plays the "expert" card, like you did with ballijuana. "Oh I know more about this than you do, let me throw around some technical jargon." You can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, so you baffle 'em with bullshit. And you thought it would shut everybody up. Oh, how smug you were.

So it turns out there is somebody who actually knows what he is talking about, who could call you out on it, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, you don't like it so much.

You got exposed as a fraud.

And it's so typically Republican too. You don't actually know jack shit about anything, but you figure you can throw out enough smart-sounding BS to trick the average layman. They do it with economics, foreign relations, social issues, what have you.

And you won't quit either. Just like Republicans won't stop with their vapid talking points, you'll go on making it sound like a relatively common industrial process being applied in a new way is 'Mount Everest.' Except, unlike Republicans, you're not lying as a means to an end. You're lying simply because you're too narcissistic to back down.

This is not a trait that is exclusive to Republicans ES and you know it.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think ES is bluffing. Take him down, CC.

[johnsmith]

I own the motherfucker.

:lmao

You go girl.

[RandomGuy]

I love being called a dumbass by pimply faced punks.

Do you guys realize just how aggressively corrosive molten salts are? Even stainless steel wouldn't work. It's one thing doing it in the lab theoretically and a whole other thing doing it in the real world...

Honestly, this is great. I read a lot, but lack the real technical expertise to really effectively evaluate a lot of this stuff.

Here is one thing, and I would appreciate your thoughts on this:

http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Energy/solarthermal/NSTTF/salt.htm

http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Energy/solarthermal/images/system.gif


Advantages of Using Molten Salt

A variety of fluids was tested to transport the sun's heat, including water, air, oil, and sodium, before molten salt was selected as best. Molten salt is used in solar power tower systems because it is liquid at atmosphere pressure, it provides an efficient, low-cost medium in which to store thermal energy, its operating temperatures are compatible with todays high-pressure and high-temperature steam turbines, and it is non-flammable and nontoxic. In addition, molten salt is used in the chemical and metals industries as a heat-transport fluid, so experience with molten-salt systems exists for non-solar applications.

The molten salt is a mixture of 60 percent sodium nitrate and 40 percent potassium-nitrate, commonly called saltpeter. The salt melts at 430 F and is kept liquid at 550 F in an insulated cold storage tank. The salt is them pumped to the top of the tower, where concentrated sunlight heats it in a receiver to 1050 F. The receiver is a series of thin-walled stainless steel tubes. The heated salt then flow back down to a second insulated hot storage tank. The size of this tank depends on the requirements of the utility; tanks can be designed with enough capacity to power a turbine from two to twelve hours. When electricity is needed from the plant, the hot salt is pumped to a conventional steam-generating system to produce superheated steam for a turbine/generator.

The uniqueness of this solar system is in de-coupling the collection of solar energy from producing power, electricity can be generated in periods of inclement weather or even at night using the stored thermal energy in the hot salt tank. The tanks are well insulated and can store energy for up to a week. As an example of their size, tanks that provide enough thermal storage to power a 100-megawatt turbine for four hours would be about 30 feet tall and 80 feet in diameter. Studies show that the two-tank storage system could have an annual efficiency of about 99 percent.

They seem to think it is feasible.
Could ceramic piping be a potential solution that might overcome the corrosive salts? More exotic carbon fibers? (zero clue if either are even existant, but just want your feedback)

[johnsmith]

I think ES is bluffing. Take him down, CC.

:lmao

[johnsmith]

Honestly, this is great. I read a lot, but lack the real technical expertise to really effectively evaluate a lot of this stuff.

Here is one thing, and I would appreciate your thoughts on this:

http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Energy/solarthermal/NSTTF/salt.htm

http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Energy/solarthermal/images/system.gif



They seem to think it is feasible.
Could ceramic piping be a potential solution that might overcome the corrosive salts? More exotic carbon fibers? (zero clue if either are even existant, but just want your feedback)

Dude, you're missing the awesomeness that this thread is providing by trying to stay on topic.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

http://priuschat.com/forums/members/proco-albums-emoticons-picture523-pissing-contest.jpg

[CosmicCowboy]

And YOU are the one that won't give up. It's a "Mount Everest because it was there" thing because the fatal flaw of Solar at a power plant level is the massive amount of storage required...soooo....in order to justify solar at that level you have to go to an exotic storage/transfer medium with multiple flaws...I haven't mentioned yet that if your system temperature drops below 400 degrees because of a failure of any kind that you storage medium "freezes" and turns into concrete and turns your power plant into a multi-billion dollar concrete gargoyle....

[Extra Stout]

They seem to think it is feasible.
Could ceramic piping be a potential solution that might overcome the corrosive salts? More exotic carbon fibers? (zero clue if either are even existant, but just want your feedback)
Those materials are not necessary.

[RandomGuy]

Yes, If it really makes a difference I am a college graduate with a hybrid engineering/construction degree and graduated summma cum laude.

There are a couple of other newer technologies, such as solar trough:

http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/thermal_energy_storage.html

More on thermal solar:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct08/6851


Largest Solar Thermal Storage Plant to Start Up
By Peter Fairley
First Published October 2008
Spanish solar power station will produce 50 MW in the dark

More background on same plant:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night

more stuff showing other research projects:
http://news.cnet.com/Full-steam-ahead-for-Nevada-solar-project/2100-11392_3-6166113.html

Here is another bit on a company that is also trying it.
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/storing-solar-power-in-salt/

I realize you probably still think I am an ass, but if you can overcome your dislike of me to give me a bit more of a professional eye on this stuff and provide some feedback on this at your leisure, I would appreciate it.

[RandomGuy]

And YOU are the one that won't give up. It's a "Mount Everest because it was there" thing because the fatal flaw of Solar at a power plant level is the massive amount of storage required...soooo....in order to justify solar at that level you have to go to an exotic storage/transfer medium with multiple flaws...I haven't mentioned yet that if your system temperature drops below 400 degrees because of a failure of any kind that you storage medium "freezes" and turns into concrete and turns your power plant into a multi-billion dollar concrete gargoyle....

hmmm (reads articles)


One problem with running a molten-salt storage system is that the salt could freeze during cold snaps, necessitating an injection of heat that reduces the plant's power output. But Nava says Andasol 1 has some improvements over earlier experimental designs to minimize the need to warm the salt. Andasol 1's valves are fewer in number, and both the valves and the heat exchanger are designed to drain when not in use, eliminating the need to keep them hot. The pumps, which cannot be drained regularly, sit submerged within the tanks instead of outside the tanks, where they would have to be heated separately. Nava estimates that, overall, annual energy losses from the storage system will be just 5 percent.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct08/6851

It would seem that they are finding solutions for this as well.

My impression is that a lot of these challenges can be overcome, with some smart guys/gals working on it.

Not trying to argue here, btw. You are bringing up things that should be addressed for this to be a realistic solution, and I am all about sorting through the bullshit to get at what will really work. If there really is some unfixable flaw to it, I WANT to know, because I may try to start/join one of these companies at some point, and would hate to latch on to a loser.

[Extra Stout]

And YOU are the one that won't give up. It's a "Mount Everest because it was there" thing because the fatal flaw of Solar at a power plant level is the massive amount of storage required...soooo....in order to justify solar at that level you have to go to an exotic storage/transfer medium with multiple flaws...I haven't mentioned yet that if your system temperature drops below 400 degrees because of a failure of any kind that you storage medium "freezes" and turns into concrete and turns your power plant into a multi-billion dollar concrete gargoyle....
No matter how many times you call molten salt "exotic," it doesn't make it true.

Is the comment about system temperature supposed to matter? I worked in a plant where if the steam jacketing failed, the process would plug solid. I worked weekends watching hundreds of feet of pipe get cut out and replaced. Across the street was another plant with the same problem, except the frozen material inside was lethal.

These were not exotic plants making incredibly high-dollar materials. These plants made commodity plastic. These "Mount Everest" problems are being solved by ordinary people everyday.

Now I work in a process that, if it gets much above ambient temperature, will leave a crater a mile across. Is that insurmountable?

So are you lying or are you stupid?

[CosmicCowboy]

RG, I don't think you are an ass. I don't have time to answer you this afternoon because I really do need to make a run down to the ranch.

I'm not saying I know everything, and there will be billions of dollars spent on active solar "research" in the near future...they may actually find the "perfect" storage medium...

My suggestion to you at a personal level is to spend your energy researching passive solar...it makes a lot more sense from a personal lifestyle level...

And when looking at these "big" systems NEVER trust the "smart guys" that say "thats just a little technical issue that the engineers will "figure out"...

I've put 2 kids through college (and one through law school) and bought a modest ranch fixing shit that wasn't supposed to break.

[RandomGuy]

Maybe, but I'll bet it will be driven by the productive sector, not govt.

That's the problem with a lot of basic/advanced research.

You might have to sink a LOT of money into it before you get your earth shattering idea.

The big disadvantage with waiting on the private sector is that too often the drive to get something readily marketable for short term returns doesn't allow for the really creative, off the wall kinds of stuff that yields intuitive leaps.

[DarrinS]

Assuming you have some massive solar farm, how much energy does it take to pump all that sodium around and how much heat is lost along the way?

[RandomGuy]

Well shit. :lol

Take a guy with a financial head, with two cranky engineers...

Spurstalk solar energy company. buwhahahahahahaha!!

One guy who says we can, one guy who says we can't playing devil's advocate, and a guy to tell 'em how much it will cost. An interesting dynamic.

[Holt's Cat]

It's beginning to appear that Greenies simply don't want progress, or ANY expansion at all. "No" to pretty much everything.

No dowbt.

[RandomGuy]

Assuming you have some massive solar farm, how much energy does it take to pump all that sodium around and how much heat is lost along the way?

According to the article:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct08/6851

About 5%

[DarrinS]

Well shit. :lol

Take a guy with a financial head, with two cranky engineers...

Spurstalk solar energy company. buwhahahahahahaha!!

One guy who says we can, one guy who says we can't playing devil's advocate, and a guy to tell 'em how much it will cost. An interesting dynamic.



If there's money to be made and it is technically feasible, it will get done.

[CosmicCowboy]

Now I work in a process that, if it gets much above ambient temperature, will leave a crater a mile across. Is that insurmountable?

So are you lying or are you stupid?

Apparently not as fucking stupid as you are.

No wonder you are worried about global warming.

[RandomGuy]

RG, I don't think you are an ass. I don't have time to answer you this afternoon because I really do need to make a run down to the ranch.

I'm not saying I know everything, and there will be billions of dollars spent on active solar "research" in the near future...they may actually find the "perfect" storage medium...

My suggestion to you at a personal level is to spend your energy researching passive solar...it makes a lot more sense from a personal lifestyle level...

And when looking at these "big" systems NEVER trust the "smart guys" that say "thats just a little technical issue that the engineers will "figure out"...

I've put 2 kids through college (and one through law school) and bought a modest ranch fixing shit that wasn't supposed to break.


Passive solar does offer a lot of advantages. Low costs being one.

I have looked into a lot of these type systems for houses, but our transportation energy needs will not be met that way.

We need to find a way to make this stuff work for electricity generation.

I think some of the trough solutions offer the advantage of being scalable, and some of them are really cheap as well.

Need to dig up the Bloomberg article on that.

[DarrinS]

There's some serious hate-age going on in this thread.

[RandomGuy]

If there's money to be made and it is technically feasible, it will get done.

This company seems to think so.
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/storing-solar-power-in-salt/

There are also companies looking into solar trough-style things.
From Bloomberg financial news:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&refer=conews&tkr=GS%3AUS&sid=augnu4KmUgio

It's there. I may very well take the leap into one of these companies after I get my CPA, or hell maybe before. Combine my intense interest in this with some financial know-how.

[DarrinS]

They get 178,000 MWh with the salt storage vs. 117,000 MWh without. Not bad.

[RandomGuy]

There's some serious hate-age going on in this thread.

I noticed.

Never seen ES get quite so worked up.

Funny thing is that the two of them would probably like each other in person over a beer.

That's the way guys roll. My favorite drinking group of libertarians and conservatives, with me providing the lone democrat occasionally end the session with a "FUCK YOU, YOU'RE WRONG! What time next week?" :lol

[DarrinS]

I noticed.

Never seen ES get quite so worked up.

Funny thing is that the two of them would probably like each other in person over a beer.

That's the way guys roll. My favorite drinking group of libertarians and conservatives, with me providing the lone democrat occasionally end the session with a "FUCK YOU, YOU'RE WRONG! What time next week?" :lol



They're conversation reminds me of these guys.

http://www.videodetective.com/photos/118/004966_3.jpg

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's beginning to appear that Greenies simply don't want progress, or ANY expansion at all. "No" to pretty much everything.

They want control of our lives, not to actually make the world a better place. Liberalism didn't work out under Carter, so they've come back around with this saving the earth / being green thing.

[Wild Cobra]

Greenies want solar power and windmills, just not in their backyards.
Same with electrical production, water, you name it. Ever hear of the Pacific DC Intertie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie)?


The Pacific DC Intertie (also called Path 65) is an electric power transmission line that transmits electricity from the Pacific Northwest to the Los Angeles area using high voltage direct current (HVDC). The line capacity is 3,100 megawatts, which is enough to serve two to three million Los Angeles households and is 48.7% of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) electrical system's peak capacity.

[Wild Cobra]

Those hybrid drivebys are especially dangerous because you can't even hear the car coming.
Yep, Brings back memories of an episode on "Weeds." The gang leader (U-Turn I think) ends up buying several just for that reason.

[Wild Cobra]

Oh well. Solar power plants are stupid anyway.
I wouldn't say that. They have their time and place. We just cannot use solar as much as people would like. I do like the idea in southern locations to compliment the electricity when people run air conditioners, but I think it has less use in areas like mine.

[Wild Cobra]

What about solar concentrators using melted salts for thermal storage of energy?

That looks fairly promising, as it allows for 24 hour production of electricity from solar.

Solar, both photovoltaic and thermal, also is ideal for peak power generation.
How efficient is it?

Molten salt is not an uncommon heat transfer medium in certain commodity chemical processes.

I have direct work experience both in molten salt systems and in solar power. I'm calling your bluff. Concede.
I don't know much about molten salts, but solar power is already rather inefficient. When you start adding storage systems that will have losses, what does that do to the bottom line?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:corn:

[MaNuMaNiAc]

How efficient is it?

I don't know much about molten salts, but solar power is already rather inefficient. When you start adding storage systems that will have losses, what does that do to the bottom line?

pfff... :lmao

now Cobra wants to have a go, this should be fun :lol

[MannyIsGod]

Its my understanding that Solar on homes here would be feasible but CPS wants you to carry outrageous insurance if you have a set up at home that connects to their grid. I know that when I was in NM this past fall a large percentage of the homes I visited had large solar panels on their roofs. Now, I'm sure NM sees a larger amount of sunshine than San Antonio but I'm quite certain San Antonio also receives a serviceable amount. There needs to be a way to drive down those insurance costs so that people can actually begin to do this. Once you achieve a large enough amount of subscribers who are using this technology on their homes the cost of insurance will of course come down a large amount and either CPS can manage it or there can be some other form of risk management.

[RandomGuy]

Its my understanding that Solar on homes here would be feasible but CPS wants you to carry outrageous insurance if you have a set up at home that connects to their grid. I know that when I was in NM this past fall a large percentage of the homes I visited had large solar panels on their roofs. Now, I'm sure NM sees a larger amount of sunshine than San Antonio but I'm quite certain San Antonio also receives a serviceable amount. There needs to be a way to drive down those insurance costs so that people can actually begin to do this. Once you achieve a large enough amount of subscribers who are using this technology on their homes the cost of insurance will of course come down a large amount and either CPS can manage it or there can be some other form of risk management.

Hmm. You are correct that a larger policyholder base means lower overall costs per policyholdier.

I would also be willing to bet that because of a lack of overall experience with this kind of risk, the insurance companies are tending to ask for a bit higher premium than is really necessary to cover larger reserves for losses.

Insurance companies (real ones not hedge funds like the financial arm of AIG), tend to be conservative and conservatism, when it comes to risks, means setting aside more money as reserves than is probably warranted, leading to higher premiums.

Over time and with more data to help measure actual risk, premiums will probably come down for the insurance, if that is a barrier.

The best way to drive down the costs for this is through (gasp) some kind of subsidy (tax breaks, rebates etc) that can be phased out as costs fall.

[coyotes_geek]

Its my understanding that Solar on homes here would be feasible but CPS wants you to carry outrageous insurance if you have a set up at home that connects to their grid. I know that when I was in NM this past fall a large percentage of the homes I visited had large solar panels on their roofs. Now, I'm sure NM sees a larger amount of sunshine than San Antonio but I'm quite certain San Antonio also receives a serviceable amount. There needs to be a way to drive down those insurance costs so that people can actually begin to do this. Once you achieve a large enough amount of subscribers who are using this technology on their homes the cost of insurance will of course come down a large amount and either CPS can manage it or there can be some other form of risk management.

Interesting bit about the insurance. I'm in Austin and was about to put a 3kw solar array on my roof, but held off once the economy went to shit. Anyways, Austin energy didn't require any special insurance, at least not that I was aware of. AE does offer up a significant rebate though and the terms of being eligible for that rebate involves getting an inspection by AE and using one of their certified installers. Seems like something CPS could do easy enough though.

[RandomGuy]

Some of you have already seen this bit before, but it should be repeated here:

*Energy is going to get more expensive.
This will happen with or without any government intervention.

*Mankind uses energies from a variety of sources.
The exact % of any given source of energy depends on a lot of factors, and the marginal cost (the cost of the last/next) unit of energy is a large part of that. The RELATIVE costs of each source when compared to alternatives matters a great deal.

*Our current energy mix uses a LOT of energy from oil.
Note that when I say "energy" I mean it in the sense of physics, not "electricity". Work energy to move a car is essentially the same as electricity in this sense.

*Oil will get more expensive in rather short order.
This will make energy OVERALL more expensive, as demand starts shifting to alternatives. The cost of energy is a weighted average, and as one of the primary components moves up, so will the weighted average.

*Once oil becomes RELATIVELY more expensive, that means that other forms of energy, including nuclear, coal, solar, natural gas, and wind, etc, will become RELATIVELY cheaper.

*As demand for oil energy shifts to alternatives, other fuel costs WILL rise

*Resource extraction is energy intensive.
Think about coal mining. You dig up tons and tons and tons of rocks, transport those rocks to where they are used, and spend a lot of energy cleaning up the pollution in one way or another. Those billion-dollar oil platforms don't get built without using, you guessed it, large amounts of energy.

*If your sources of energy don't require fuel, like renewables, as fuel costs increase, your source of energy becomes RELATIVELY even cheaper.

All of this will happen through simple market mechanisms.

Knowing this WILL happen gives any country that can antipate this, and act on this information, an advantage over those who don't do anything.

*Not only will this be an advantage, it will be a LONG lasting advantage.If you are a country that, say, is locking yourself into coal now by building 1 or 2 new coal plants per week, you are committing yourself for 20-30 years to getting energy from those coal plants as they work their way through their useful lives.

Lastly:

*Energy jobs can't really be outsourced unless you have a massive global power grid.
Think about THAT for a second.

We have an opportunity to get out in FRONT of what the market will do anyway, and by that action, secure our long-term economic success, while at the SAME time reducing our security vulnerability to disruptions of all sorts from the foreign sources of energy.

[DarrinS]

Is our power grid vulnerable to a space storm?


Scary shit.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20127001.300-space-storm-alert-90-seconds-from-catastrophe.html?full=true

[RandomGuy]

Is our power grid vulnerable to a space storm?


Scary shit.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20127001.300-space-storm-alert-90-seconds-from-catastrophe.html?full=true

Yes. Solar flares are a huge worry for power grids.

Yet another advantage for distributed power generation schemes.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes. Solar flares are a huge worry for power grids.

Yet another advantage for distributed power generation schemes.
I'm all for distributed systems. Count me in. If California doesn't want to build power plants in their back yard, then I say Fuck them!

[Don Quixote]

Green on green violence brewing in California.

I would pay cash money to see that. It's only a matter of time anyway.

[Ignignokt]

I don't sneer at someone who disagrees with me. I sneer at someone who plays the "expert" card, like you did with ballijuana. "Oh I know more about this than you do, let me throw around some technical jargon." You can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, so you baffle 'em with bullshit. And you thought it would shut everybody up. Oh, how smug you were.

So it turns out there is somebody who actually knows what he is talking about, who could call you out on it, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, you don't like it so much.

You got exposed as a fraud.

And it's so typically Republican too. You don't actually know jack shit about anything, but you figure you can throw out enough smart-sounding BS to trick the average layman. They do it with economics, foreign relations, social issues, what have you.

And you won't quit either. Just like Republicans won't stop with their vapid talking points, you'll go on making it sound like a relatively common industrial process being applied in a new way is 'Mount Everest.' Except, unlike Republicans, you're not lying as a means to an end. You're lying simply because you're too narcissistic to back down.

ON point.

Let me also add that i knew about a straned polar bear starving while arguing against tax cuts for the rich, while bloggin about No war for oil on Israeltargetscivilians.com, under the screen name Republican_Dereg_did_it!!, All while she the polar bear had to result in eating her own cub yelling at the world "It's my body, It's my Choice", Nuance burger!

[LockBeard]

Extra Stout LOL

What a fucking joke homeboy. It is almost every liberal idea that throws around bullshit yet has no common sense as foundation.

I hope the Polar Bears outlast Liberals on the endangered species list.

[Ignignokt]

I once caught myself arguing with a fellow about how the basic philosophy behind the constituion being that the Government is seen as more as a negative force rather than a positive force, and that's why the constituion is more about what the congress can't do rather than what it should do. Yet, while i was going further into this subject i remembered what the great Extra Stout said, and i stopped myself.

I just didn't want to use technical jargon while proseltyzing with right wing talking points. Golly constitution! You should have been more *gasp* Nuanced!

[RandomGuy]

This is not a trait that is exclusive to Republicans ES and you know it.

If I had a dime for everytime some Republican has told me that I don't know anything about economics...

Exclusive no?

Highly prevalent? Hell, yes.

[RandomGuy]

Extra Stout LOL

What a fucking joke homeboy. It is almost every liberal idea that throws around bullshit yet has no common sense as foundation.

I hope the Polar Bears outlast Liberals on the endangered species list.

You might be more believable when talking about "liberal ideas" if you could tell the difference between a "liberal" idea and a "conservative" idea, or for that matter had any ideas at all.

I've seen little from you other than poop-flinging posts like this.

Fling some poop, and run away. Fling some poop, and run away.

That seems to pass for genius level thinking in the "right-wing" these days.

It is why you lost the last couple of elections, and don't look on track to do much better in the next one either.

[RandomGuy]

What is molten salt?
Molten salt, which is used as a heat storage medium in the SolarReserve power plant, is an entirely and environmentally friendly mixture of sodium and potassium nitrate. If fact, in solid form, it is traditionally used as garden fertilizer.

http://www.solar-reserve.com/FAQS.html

FWIW

Basically, they use everyday fertilizer as a heat storage medium.

Also, their analysis of the future of energy mirrors (HA!) mine:


Does electricity from SolarReserve cost more than electricity from traditional sources such as natural gas and coal?

At full scale, we anticipate our power prices to be competitive with modern fossil fuel-based generation facilities. And as the costs of fossil fuels rise, as most forecasts predict, electricity from these sources will rise accordingly.

SolarReserve, which fuels its plant from free sunlight, will not be affected by fossil fuel prices, and therefore will produce comparatively cheaper electricity in the future.

I would start looking for ways to invest in this company, currently financed primarily by a specialized venture capital fund that invests in renewables.

[Indazone]

2 square miles of solar concentrators is ridiculous. Have you even thought about how big that would be? If you walked around the perimeter it would be a total of 8 miles. That's frigging huge!! There are better alternatives to that. It has always been the desire of utilities to meter and sell electricity. You can't do that if everyone has a panel on their house.

[Wild Cobra]

I would start looking for ways to invest in this company, currently financed primarily by a specialized venture capital fund that invests in renewables.
Maybe. Consider this statement:

At full scale, we anticipate our power prices to be competitive with modern fossil fuel-based generation facilities. And as the costs of fossil fuels rise, as most forecasts predict, electricity from these sources will rise accordingly.
OK, now my question is, when is this statement valid? Would it only be valid when oil prices were above $200 per barrel?

As I look more at the salt idea, I like it, but I have the above concern, plus the concern that often things cost twice as much or more than we are originally told.

[boutons_]

The costs of coal-fired electricity and natural gas are badly understated, huge propaganda wins for the Big Dirty Coal and Big Fart.

Solar thermal has the huge advantage of storing energy for no-solar hours more cheaply than solar voltaic.

[RandomGuy]

2 square miles of solar concentrators is ridiculous. Have you even thought about how big that would be? If you walked around the perimeter it would be a total of 8 miles. That's frigging huge!! There are better alternatives to that. It has always been the desire of utilities to meter and sell electricity. You can't do that if everyone has a panel on their house.

1 + You = FAIL.

Square root of 2 is 1.41

1.41 + 1.41 +1.41 + 1.41 = 5.65 = perimeter of a square with an area of 2 square miles.

Distributed power is a good thing, and I am all for photovoltaic, but power plants like this benefit from economies of scale that allow for power to be produced on a cheaper, per unit cost.

Large users of electricity with a LOT of roof area would benefit most economically from photovoltaic, but distributed photovoltaic on every house is fairly impractical simply due to expense.

It may be worth the extra expense in some case to people who derive satisfaction from not buying power, and would eventually pay for itself, but even then the utility-scale power plants will ALWAYS provide cheaper power.

It's a micro-economics thing.

Besides, conventional power plants that utilize coal/etc take up a good chunk of land today. Such plants wouldn't be that much larger to my understanding.

[RandomGuy]

The costs of coal-fired electricity and natural gas are badly understated,

Yes they are.

I am a firm believer in forcing almost all costs of pollution onto the coal and gas producers and users.

As it stands today they get to pollute and keep their costs lower, while forcing the costs of that pollution on the rest of us anyways.

I would prefer not to subsidize them with our water and air.

[Indazone]

1 + You = FAIL.

Square root of 2 is 1.41

1.41 + 1.41 +1.41 + 1.41 = 5.65 = perimeter of a square with an area of 2 square miles.

Distributed power is a good thing, and I am all for photovoltaic, but power plants like this benefit from economies of scale that allow for power to be produced on a cheaper, per unit cost.

Large users of electricity with a LOT of roof area would benefit most economically from photovoltaic, but distributed photovoltaic on every house is fairly impractical simply due to expense.

It may be worth the extra expense in some case to people who derive satisfaction from not buying power, and would eventually pay for itself, but even then the utility-scale power plants will ALWAYS provide cheaper power.

It's a micro-economics thing.

Besides, conventional power plants that utilize coal/etc take up a good chunk of land today. Such plants wouldn't be that much larger to my understanding.

Depends if you're talking about miles squared or square miles. Whatever - It's still huge and that was my original point. Feinstein is right. Besides the technology you're talking about is crap. The best solar panels right now can generate 3 kw. There are better in Europe. The US is so far behind it's ridiculous.

[RandomGuy]

Depends if you're talking about miles squared or square miles. Whatever - It's still huge and that was my original point. Feinstein is right. Besides the technology you're talking about is crap. The best solar panels right now can generate 3 kw. There are better in Europe. The US is so far behind it's ridiculous.

um, you realize the topic was thermal solar, and not photovoltaic solar, right?

Even more specifically, it was about concentrating thermal solar, as opposed to trough thermal solar.

Respectfully:

You might want to read up a bit on the last few pages to catch up.

[Wild Cobra]

1 + You = FAIL.

Square root of 2 is 1.41

1.41 + 1.41 +1.41 + 1.41 = 5.65 = perimeter of a square with an area of 2 square miles.


Then if for some reason the mirrors were laid out in a circular patter, rather than square, the perimeter would be 5.01 miles.

We are talking about vast desert areas. Two square miles ain't shit.

[Indazone]

um, you realize the topic was thermal solar, and not photovoltaic solar, right?

Even more specifically, it was about concentrating thermal solar, as opposed to trough thermal solar.

Respectfully:

You might want to read up a bit on the last few pages to catch up.

The goal is to generate electricity 500-600 MW. The technology listed is crap.

[Wild Cobra]

Depends if you're talking about miles squared or square miles.
then before that:

2 square miles of solar concentrators is ridiculous... ...it would be a total of 8 miles
Wake up and smell the coffee...

[RandomGuy]

The goal is to generate electricity 500-600 MW. The technology listed is crap.

This technology has offered a rather unique solution to the storage problem that holds renewables back. The energy storage system here is vastly more efficient than any battery technology today, or even any battery technology envisioned in 50 years.

Please tell me exactly how it "is crap".

Be sure to make it good enough to dissuade the experts with $200M+ who are investing in the technology not to do so.

[RandomGuy]

The goal is to generate electricity 500-600 MW.

The test bed plant, Solar Two, was a 20Mw plant by my calculations. (taking 178,000 MWh and dividing by 24 hours and 365 days)

500/20= 25 plants.

Seems fairly feasible, all things considered.

The singular advantage of this type of power generation scheme is that it is more efficient precisely where electricity is in higher demand, i.e. hot, sunny climates with a lot of people running A/C.

It may also spur some electricity intensive processes to be shifted to really sunny places. Were I a producer of aluminum, I would be VERY VERY interested in this technology, as it would allow for MUCH more stable electricity costs that would not roller coaster with fuel costs. Predictability is rather prized in project management and industrial processes.

[boutons_]

Aluminum producers already build smelters near hydro-power (eg, AluSuisse, one of the biggest smelters in the world, hydro-powered is in tiny Switzerland). Tiny Iceland has a large alu smelting presence because of hydro power and geothermal power.

Microsoft puts a datacenter in SA only because the electricity costs are low as provided by the biggest municpal electricity provider in USA, not because of the RiverWalk.

[RandomGuy]

Aluminum producers already build smelters near hydro-power (eg, AluSuisse, one of the biggest smelters in the world, hydro-powered is in tiny Switzerland). Tiny Iceland has a large alu smelting presence because of hydro power and geothermal power.

Microsoft puts a datacenter in SA only because the electricity costs are low as provided by the biggest municpal electricity provider in USA, not because of the RiverWalk.

Exactly. Aluminum producers also locate smelters at the mouths of coal mines, and right next to power plants, sometimes even actually building and operating their own full scale utility-size power plants.

One interesting thing about aluminum producers is that they sign LONG term contracts for electricity to lock in prices. During some periods of high prices due to high usage, they actually shut down operations at their plants and "sell" their allotment back to the electrical producers for a profit, because they can make more money selling their electricity than they can making aluminum.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm tentatively on board with this salt solution after a little research.

A desert is that because of little or no precipitation which means little or no cloud cover. There is a minimum of 1365 watts per meter of solar power before going through our atmosphere. Somewhere around 49% of that radiation makes it through the atmosphere on a perpendicular plane, or a minimum of 570 watts. Now this is as high as 558 watts in the summer and as low as 302 watts in the winter, per meter when you consider the angle of the surface to the sun, at noon. Now if you placed the solar collectors at a latitude of 36 degrees, the solar energy is now about 461 watts per meter at noon during the equinox. As the sun goes from horizon to horizon, the average power is about 290 watts per meter over the 12 hours, or 145 watts per meter for the 24 hour period. The math gets complex to figure summer and winter values, and annual values, because of the obliquity of the earths orbit. It's not simply a ratio of the numbers because the days are also longer in the summer and shorter in the winter.

Now.. What does 145 watts per meter mean over 2 square miles...

2 square miles = 5.18 square km, or 51,800,000 square meters. Times 145 watts = 7,511,000,000 watts! (7.5 giga-watts) Dr. Emmett Brown would be very pleased!

Of course, that at 100% utilization of the surface area and 100% conversion of radiation to heat. When you factor in the inefficiencies and losses, the 500 to 600 megawatts is still a very conservative number. That is only assuming around a 6% efficiency. I wonder if that figure is for worse case winter numbers.

edit... correction...

Changed the 1165 to the proper 1365. The 49% above is not minimum, but average globally. It is about 69% of the sun's full spectrum with no cloud cover and low humidity.

[Wild Cobra]

edit...

I moved my photobucket pics around, so I fixed the links locations.

Exactly. Aluminum producers also locate smelters at the mouths of coal mines, and right next to power plants, sometimes even actually building and operating their own full scale utility-size power plants.

One interesting thing about aluminum producers is that they sign LONG term contracts for electricity to lock in prices. During some periods of high prices due to high usage, they actually shut down operations at their plants and "sell" their allotment back to the electrical producers for a profit, because they can make more money selling their electricity than they can making aluminum.
Right out of High School, in The Dalles, OR, I went to work for an aluminum plant.

The Dalles, OR:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/satellite%20view/TheDalles-2.jpg

Aluminum Plant:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/satellite%20view/NorthwestAluminum-2.jpg

The Dalles Dam:
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/satellite%20view/TheDallesDam.jpg

Celilo Converter Station:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/satellite%20view/CeliloConverterStation-2.jpg

The three location images are at the same scale. The Celilo Converter Station is where the power originates from for the Pacific DC Intertie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie) to Claifornia.

[Wild Cobra]

I guess I should point out that Northwest Aluminum has 300 cells. At the time I worked there they were changing to a energy reducing ore mix that operated at 4.3 volts rather than 4.7 volts. The current was still 170,000 amps.

4.7 x 296 x 170,000 = 236,504,000 watts. 5,676,096 kilo-watt hours per 24 hours.

4.3 x 296 x 170,000 = 216,376,000 watts. 5,193,024 kilo-watt hours per 24 hours.

A rather nice savings of more than 20 megawatts. 483,072 kilo-watt-hours per day. At a bargain 2 cents (guessing) per KWH, that's a daily calculated savings of $9661.44 for the change in electrolysis technology. Hopefully, cell voltages are reduced farther today than back then.

Now not all 300 cells were on line at a time. Routine maintenance would normally have two per cell line shunted out for rebuilding. The power scheme was set up for two lines of 150 cells.

Each cell would produce 1.5 tons per day. I remember we tapped a crucible every two days per cell, they were about 4 ton crucibles that we filled to about 3 tons. Now 3 tons times 148 cells is a nice daily production of 444 tons of aluminum.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

In fact, I don't even think Nevada should be a state anymore. I was disappointed by the admin's decision to shutter Yucca mtn. They should just turn Vegas into a state and turn the rest of Nevada into a multi-purpose anything goes dumping ground/wind turbine/solar plant for the rest of the nation. What a shit state.

In regards to yucca mountain...I read an op-ed in the WSJ that was making the case that there is really no such thing as nuclear waste, that all the byproducts can be used to do other things. Some nations in europe apparently do this.

Watching Extra Stout annihilate someone on this forum is always good stuff, but I've never seen him change his opinion on anything, or admit he was wrong about anything ever. It makes me wonder if he's just not taking technical BS one step further in an attempt to always be right.

[Wild Cobra]

In regards to yucca mountain...I read an op-ed in the WSJ that was making the case that there is really no such thing as nuclear waste, that all the byproducts can be used to do other things. Some nations in europe apparently do this.
I would be surprised if we have use for all the byproducts. It is a pretty nasty mix of isotopes of various elements once its expended. Still, I'm rather sure that there are safer storage methods than the older types we have problems with.

[RandomGuy]

In regards to yucca mountain...I read an op-ed in the WSJ that was making the case that there is really no such thing as nuclear waste, that all the byproducts can be used to do other things. Some nations in europe apparently do this.

Watching Extra Stout annihilate someone on this forum is always good stuff, but I've never seen him change his opinion on anything, or admit he was wrong about anything ever. It makes me wonder if he's just not taking technical BS one step further in an attempt to always be right.

I would not think so. Doesn't seem to be ES' MO, IMHO.

[RandomGuy]

I would be surprised if we have use for all the byproducts. It is a pretty nasty mix of isotopes of various elements once its expended. Still, I'm rather sure that there are safer storage methods than the older types we have problems with.

That is my understanding as well.

[LnGrrrR]

ON point.

Let me also add that i knew about a straned polar bear starving while arguing against tax cuts for the rich, while bloggin about No war for oil on Israeltargetscivilians.com, under the screen name Republican_Dereg_did_it!!, All while she the polar bear had to result in eating her own cub yelling at the world "It's my body, It's my Choice", Nuance burger!


Was that some sort of poem without line breaks?

[RandomGuy]

I don't think Cosmic Cowboy is going to get back to the thread.

[RandomGuy]

I don't think Cosmic Cowboy is going to get back to the thread.

Astonishingly enough.. I was right.

[Wild Cobra]

Its my understanding that Solar on homes here would be feasible but CPS wants you to carry outrageous insurance if you have a set up at home that connects to their grid. Then don't connect to the grid.

In southern US areas, what about connecting an array of solar cells directly to Peltier devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier_device) with a thermal switch?

They aren't as efficient as coolant type heat pumps, but in theory, they are maintenance free.

[LnGrrrR]

So, to the energy experts... what will eventually take over as the dominant form of energy, do you think? Just take an educated guess.

Solar? Windpower? Nuclear? Biofuel? Or some other source I haven't thought of?

[Vici]

I remember watching something on PBS about solar. It was maybe a year ago and they had had a major break though in solar power efficiency. The problem was it was not practical because of the cost of materials.
Storing the energy is still a major issue as well.

In Germany they had this cool law which fixed solar costs at a certain level for like 10 years. Farmers were buying the panels with government subsidies, and reselling the energy back for a profit. Apparently the program was extremely successful but it remained to be seen if it met it's goal of being cost effective long term.

As a biologist I'd love to go back to school and take a few engineering courses on this subject.

[RandomGuy]

So, to the energy experts... what will eventually take over as the dominant form of energy, do you think? Just take an educated guess.

Solar? Windpower? Nuclear? Biofuel? Or some other source I haven't thought of?

Good question. Long-term, probably some sort of fusion, and this will be either late in my life or after I am dead.

It will end up being some combination of several forms. Renewables will have to pick up much of the slack in my lifetime, and some form of oil made from algae.

Quite frankly I could see some form of space-based power ending up as donig the trick, as the restrictions on pure space and/or environmental concerns would be non-existant.

The sun puts out more energy in 2 seconds than we have ever used as a species, and building a power array a few hundred miles across would be feasible.

[Vici]

So, to the energy experts... what will eventually take over as the dominant form of energy, do you think? Just take an educated guess.

Solar? Windpower? Nuclear? Biofuel? Or some other source I haven't thought of?

I'm no energy expert but windpower isn't very likely for several reasons. One is that it simply takes up too much space for the output. Maybe if they could put the over the ocean and out of the way. Another is they tend to lower air pressure which can create havoc on the local wildlife (especially bats). This means that environmental groups would be facing a situation where they have to decide between green energy and nature.

Solar is a great option but it's subject to 1. sunlight 2. efficiency 3. efficiency in storing energy. This is likely going to be the option of the future, but not in our lifetime. I've seen NASA models of solar panels in space that would would feed the earth an endless supply of energy. The only problem is extremely obvious, how do you transfer that energy?

Biofuel is not a very good option at all. 1. it's extremely inefficient 2. it kills crop prices around the world, especially in poorer countries. 3. It has nasty emissions. 4. It would be too difficult at this point to change our industry completely to biofuels.

Nuclear seems to be the most viable option at this point. The only negative is what to do with the waste but apparently there are uses. The only major reason not to would be fear of an explosion or meltdown. Truth be told it wouldn't be a big deal. How many people were sick from 3 mile island? I believe the answer is 0. Chernobyl was a different beast but that place was a shit hole, even to the soviet standard of a shit hole. Even then the damage would have been minimal if the Soviets had tried.

I personally think solar is the future. Short term it is nuclear.

[coyotes_geek]

Just my $0.02, but I think we're still generations away from seeing something else knock coal out of the top spot. Coal is still cheap and abundant and I don't see that changing any time soon. That's not to say that solar, wind, nuclear and other non-fossil alternatives won't become bigger players in the energy market. They will, especially in the U.S. But coal still has such a huge head start. Not to mention China doesn't give a shit about non-fossil alternatives and they just continue to crank up dozens of new coal plants each and every year.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.economist.com./search/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13725855

Intersting article. Solar-hybrid plants with natural gas-boilers for back ups to primary solar plants.

That I see as an interesting and ecoomical approach.

[RandomGuy]

Solar is a great option but it's subject to 1. sunlight 2. efficiency 3. efficiency in storing energy. This is likely going to be the option of the future, but not in our lifetime. I've seen NASA models of solar panels in space that would would feed the earth an endless supply of energy. The only problem is extremely obvious, how do you transfer that energy?


Read the OP. Store energy in the form of molten salt, heated by solar concentration. Pump molten salt through a conventional steam boiler to generate electricty at night.

http://media.economist.com/images/20090606/2409TQ3.jpg

Spanish thermal solar plant.

[coyotes_geek]

There are some interesting things going on in terms of ideas as to how to harness wave power to generate electricity. I wouldn't be surprised to see that become a player in the energy market within the next couple of decades.

[Wild Cobra]

The best solar panels right now can generate 3 kw. There are better in Europe. The US is so far behind it's ridiculous.
Is that per square meter? Square foot? Square yard?

I'm assuming since science is metric, the general convention would mean 3 kw per square meter. Still, that would be at near 0% humidity and perpendicular to the sun. The solar power varies from 1363 to 1367 watts per meter just outside our atmosphere and about 69% of this makes it to the surface, only about half on average weather conditions. If we use 69% of 1365 watts = 942 watts then 3 watts is still only 3.2% efficient. Granted, that's far more than the approximate 2% of older solar cells.

How much do these cost?

[RandomGuy]

Solar and Wind do not produce enough continuous power to be considered a "base-load" power source. The storage problems encountered with these fluctuating sources provides substantial problems.

Once again, the thermal storage of heat from thermal concentrators pretty much provides the solution to this problem.

There are a few firms who are attracting investment capital to move forward with large-scale projects, so we will see how economical it really is.

[balli]

If you look around the world..you'll notice most countries with high amounts nuclear power don't need large depositories. They have fuel recycling plants.
Well then build em, in Nevada, or don't, but I'm 100% on the nuclear bandwagon. I don't care whether we bury the waste, recycle it, or whatever the hell else gets done with it, I just want a means for its disposal. Nuclear waste IMO is one of those good problems.

I don't knock Obama for much and I'm no scholar on the matter, but his ties to the coal industry bother me. I have no idea what amount stimulus funding, if any, is geared towards nuclear power, but I doubt there's much.

[Drachen]

I know that this idea may seem a little sci fi but its an idea that just popped into my head. One poster on this page asked what would eventually become the dominant player in energy and one of the options was "something I haven't thought of yet." What do yall think about the possibility of somehow harnessing the energy produced by photosynthesis in plants to power our needs? (not biofuels, but figuring out some synthetic version of photosynthesis to create energy). Like I said, very sci fi and in the future and all, but I just thought I would throw that idea out there to the general public to see what you think.

[coyotes_geek]

Is that per square meter? Square foot? Square yard?

I'm assuming since science is metric, the general convention would mean 3 kw per square meter. Still, that would be at near 0% humidity and perpendicular to the sun. The solar power varies from 1363 to 1367 watts per meter just outside our atmosphere and about 69% of this makes it to the surface, only about half on average weather conditions. If we use 69% of 1365 watts = 942 watts then 3 watts is still only 3.2% efficient. Granted, that's far more than the approximate 2% of older solar cells.

How much do these cost?

I was about to put a 3kw solar array on my roof last year and I want to say that it was going to take about 280 square feet of panels. Total installed cost was going to be around $25,000.

[LnGrrrR]

Good question. Long-term, probably some sort of fusion, and this will be either late in my life or after I am dead.

It will end up being some combination of several forms. Renewables will have to pick up much of the slack in my lifetime, and some form of oil made from algae.

Quite frankly I could see some form of space-based power ending up as donig the trick, as the restrictions on pure space and/or environmental concerns would be non-existant.

The sun puts out more energy in 2 seconds than we have ever used as a species, and building a power array a few hundred miles across would be feasible.

Like a Dyson sphere? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere

[LnGrrrR]

Biofuel is not a very good option at all. 1. it's extremely inefficient 2. it kills crop prices around the world, especially in poorer countries. 3. It has nasty emissions. 4. It would be too difficult at this point to change our industry completely to biofuels.

I was thinking more along the lines of methane capturing and things of that nature, rather than ethanol. Do the former have the same problems as the latter?

[Vici]

Read the OP. Store energy in the form of molten salt, heated by solar concentration. Pump molten salt through a conventional steam boiler to generate electricty at night.

http://media.economist.com/images/20090606/2409TQ3.jpg

Spanish thermal solar plant.

I was thinking along the lines of personal solar when it comes to storing energy. I would think the goal would be to power your own place for free once you've installed solar panels. The same with your car. Can you use molten salt at a personal residence? If you show me which you're talking about I'll read it on my own.

[Wild Cobra]

So, to the energy experts... what will eventually take over as the dominant form of energy, do you think? Just take an educated guess.

Solar?
Maybe, but unlikely. There is a tremendous amount of enrgy in sunlight. The problem is converting it. I find it unlikely we will ever convert it efficiently enough to be other than a minor player. I think the best use we will have is in building designs themselves, that will harness the heat in the winter and reflect it it the summer.

Windpower?
Never. If we could harness enough of the wind for power generation, we would alter nature too much.

Nuclear?
This is our best current means, if we could just get past the green weenies.

Biofuel?
I see a fair chance of this becoming a major player, but I don't think it will be dominant. Researchers are working on converting waste to usable fuels. In theory, the waste we generate can be converted to a tremendous amount of power. It's just a matter of getting all the pieces to work.

Or some other source I haven't thought of?
We have thought of Cold Fusion. This is my personal favorite. Years ago, I though we would be making progress by now. I hope we have and it's just under wraps. There are cold fusion generators that work on small scales, but nothing even close to cost effective.

Maybe we can learn how to build ZPM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZPM#Zero_Point_Module)'s?

[LnGrrrR]

I know, I've worked with all types of Solar concentrators. I have an engine powered from a light bulb in my office. I've even overlooked proposals to used pressurized air in underground caverns to store the energy. The efficiency from just about all of them are garbage, there are a lot of transfer losses involved that hardly anyone talks about.

This might sound stupid, but I have no dealings with this type of stuff in my job, so...

Let's assume that we can't seem to get around oil/coal due to the superior efficiency. Is there any way we could manufacture a similar/synthetic substance without using more energy than we would get back to produce it? Or is our only option just waiting a few hundred thousand years for some more fossil fuel?

[Vici]

Absolutely, although your insurance, fire department, LE agency or HOA may say otherwise. :lol

You might want to look up the characteristics of molten sodium before you try it.

Well that's kind of what I was hinting at lol. The goal of solar is complete self sustainability.



I was thinking more along the lines of methane capturing and things of that nature, rather than ethanol. Do the former have the same problems as the latter?

I honestly don't know enough about methane as an energy source to make any form of opinion. However I do remember this http://www.azocleantech.com/Details.asp?NewsID=273 . It's an interesting idea.

I also came across this short article http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/using-bacteria-to-convert-clean-energy-to-methane-for-storage.php which would actually answer my personal storage question. It's possible, just not ready yet.


I know that this idea may seem a little sci fi but its an idea that just popped into my head. One poster on this page asked what would eventually become the dominant player in energy and one of the options was "something I haven't thought of yet." What do yall think about the possibility of somehow harnessing the energy produced by photosynthesis in plants to power our needs? (not biofuels, but figuring out some synthetic version of photosynthesis to create energy). Like I said, very sci fi and in the future and all, but I just thought I would throw that idea out there to the general public to see what you think.

It's a biologists wet dream, trust me. I've had countless discussions about this, it's just very hard to do lol.

[Drachen]

Well that's kind of what I was hinting at lol. The goal of solar is complete self sustainability.




I honestly don't know enough about methane as an energy source to make any form of opinion. However I do remember this http://www.azocleantech.com/Details.asp?NewsID=273 . It's an interesting idea.

I also came across this short article http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/using-bacteria-to-convert-clean-energy-to-methane-for-storage.php which would actually answer my personal storage question. It's possible, just not ready yet.



It's a biologists wet dream, trust me. I've had countless discussions about this, it's just very hard to do lol.


Is it that we just don't know enough about how the photosynthesis process works? Or is it that we cant figure out how to tap into the energy produced?

[coyotes_geek]

I honestly don't know enough about methane as an energy source to make any form of opinion. However I do remember this http://www.azocleantech.com/Details.asp?NewsID=273 . It's an interesting idea.

I also came across this short article http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/using-bacteria-to-convert-clean-energy-to-methane-for-storage.php which would actually answer my personal storage question. It's possible, just not ready yet.

I know there are some landfills out there that have developed relatively efficient methane recovery systems. I don't think there's any way for those to be used on a large enough scale to be considered a viable alternative, but it is possible to recover enough methane to cover your costs. Every little bit helps.

[Wild Cobra]

I was about to put a 3kw solar array on my roof last year and I want to say that it was going to take about 280 square feet of panels. Total installed cost was going to be around $25,000.
Well, depending on where you are and the angle of the sun, etc.

280 sq ft = 26 sq meters. Conventional solar cells only get about 1 kw per meter at full direct sunlight. If you live say in San Antonio with a roof pitch of 30 degrees and facing due south, then you have nearly full power at noon during the equinox. Summer solstice noon power will be at 99.4% and winter solstice noon at 83.9%. Now with fixed solar cells perpendicular to the noon sun, they will recieve 0% power at 6 AM and 6 PM. The daily average becomes about 29% in the summer and 24.5% in the winter. If calculated at the winter average, 24.5% of 26 watts is only 6.37 watts. Now consider average cloud cover, humidity, etc... That 6.37 watts is under optimum conditions under the conditions I mentioned. If your roof slope is not facing due south, then the number is smaller. There is even a factor I didn't calculate in. For some winter days, your direct sunlight is less than 12 hours.

Angle Power factor
0____100.00% noon
15____96.59% 11 AM/1 PM
30____86.60% 10 AM/2 PM
45____70.71% 9 AM/3 PM
60____50.00% 8 AM/4 PM
75____25.88% 7 AM/5 PM
90_____0.00% 6 AM/6 PM

[coyotes_geek]

Well, depending on where you are and the angle of the sun, etc.

280 sq ft = 26 sq meters. Conventional solar cells only get about 1 kw per meter at full direct sunlight. If you live say in San Antonio with a roof pitch of 30 degrees and facing due south, then you have nearly full power at noon during the equinox. Summer solstice noon power will be at 99.4% and winter solstice noon at 83.9%. Now with fixed solar cells perpendicular to the noon sun, they will recieve 0% power at 6 AM and 6 PM. The daily average becomes about 29% in the summer and 24.5% in the winter. If calculated at the winter average, 24.5% of 26 watts is only 6.37 watts. Now consider average cloud cover, humidity, etc... That 6.37 watts is under optimum conditions under the conditions I mentioned. If your roof slope is not facing due south, then the number is smaller. There is even a factor I didn't calculate in. For some winter days, your direct sunlight is less than 12 hours.

Angle Power factor
0____100.00% noon
15____96.59% 11 AM/1 PM
30____86.60% 10 AM/2 PM
45____70.71% 9 AM/3 PM
60____50.00% 8 AM/4 PM
75____25.88% 7 AM/5 PM
90_____0.00% 6 AM/6 PM

Interesting stuff. I forget all the particulars on how much power I was going to get out of the system but I know the installer I would have used went through all those calcs and showed them to me. I could also be off on the square footage of the system. I just remember 3 kilowatt system and with rebates and incentives I'd have been out of pocket about $10 grand and depending on the electric rates it would have taken around 10 years to pay itself off.

[Wild Cobra]

However I do remember this http://www.azocleantech.com/Details.asp?NewsID=273I know the Portland Zoo already has been recycling their animal waste in various ways, I think for power generation as well.

I also came across this short article http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/using-bacteria-to-convert-clean-energy-to-methane-for-storage.php which would actually answer my personal storage question.
This is already common at waste treatment facilities. They capture the methane and generate their own power with it.

Now there is a researcher who is engaged in genetically modifying bacteria to make fuel. J.C. Bell claims to have the solution, but I haven't heard of anything yet, or the pilot project to prove his work. Check these out though:

Bell Bio-Energy web site (http://www.bellbioenergy.com/)

Researcher: Discovery could end energy crisis (http://www.tiftongazette.com/local/local_story_075215425.html)

National news media burying amazing oil breakthrough?
Man working to convert all that grows into fuel surprised by 'inattention' (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=61808)

Anything that grows 'can convert into oil'
Company finds natural solution that turns plants into gasoline (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59402)

Impossible?...Not Always; 5 Billion Barrels a Year Says Bell (http://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/jc+bell-biomass-oil/1219)

[Wild Cobra]

Haha....man, you got bluffed on that one.

---snip---
Here's a real fusion device. Takes up a shitload of power...but it works.

Small scale, expensive, but it works.

What did you think I meant?

[RandomGuy]

Is it that we just don't know enough about how the photosynthesis process works? Or is it that we cant figure out how to tap into the energy produced?

Somone actually posted a new concept car that does just that. Sucks up CO2 and sunlight to charge batteries.

[MiamiHeat]

again

I do not know why the President does not try to make history

create another Manhattan project, smaller obviously than the original one, but still a large focused project funded by the government

it's goal : to find a new source of infinitely renewable clean power to replace oil, and a new engine to replace the archaic combustion engine. this will create a new industry for the world, in which America will lead in. new jobs, prestige for america, etc.

He can go down in history.

Why don't they fucking do it already?

[RandomGuy]

again

I do not know why the President does not try to make history

create another Manhattan project, smaller obviously than the original one, but still a large focused project funded by the government

it's goal : to find a new source of infinitely renewable clean power to replace oil, and a new engine to replace the archaic combustion engine. this will create a new industry for the world, in which America will lead in. new jobs, prestige for america, etc.

He can go down in history.

Why don't they fucking do it already?

Good question. Such an endeavor would probably entail (gasp!) new taxes.

There is a non-profit that essentially urges the government to undertake what they call a New Apollo project to do just that.

http://apolloalliance.org/


Our Mission
The Apollo Alliance is a coalition of labor, business, environmental, and community leaders working to catalyze a clean energy revolution that will put millions of Americans to work in a new generation of high-quality, green-collar jobs. Inspired by the Apollo space program, we promote investments in energy efficiency, clean power, mass transit, next-generation vehicles, and emerging technology, as well as in education and training. Working together, we will reduce carbon emissions and oil imports, spur domestic job growth, and position America to thrive in the 21st century economy.

The big problem I see is the knee-jerk anti-environmentalist streak within the modern conservative movement and Republican party.

I find it the height of irony that the same conservative movement that accuses "liberals" of over-emotional reactions to policy problems, has some bizzarre emotional reaction to the modern evironmental movement. This causes them to almost automatically poo-poo policies simply because they seem a bit "green" even when those policy solutions offer some real chance of being more pro-business and pro-economic growth than the alternative.

[DarrinS]

If you think about it, oil is a biofuel.

[DarrinS]

Good question. Such an endeavor would probably entail (gasp!) new taxes.

There is a non-profit that essentially urges the government to undertake what they call a New Apollo project to do just that.

http://apolloalliance.org/



The big problem I see is the knee-jerk anti-environmentalist streak within the modern conservative movement and Republican party.

I find it the height of irony that the same conservative movement that accuses "liberals" of over-emotional reactions to policy problems, has some bizzarre emotional reaction to the modern evironmental movement. This causes them to almost automatically poo-poo policies simply because they seem a bit "green" even when those policy solutions offer some real chance of being more pro-business and pro-economic growth than the alternative.




No need for emotion -- just look at examples of green failure. California immediately comes to mind.

[ElNono]

This is the way of the future...

VFcUjYXPo30

:lol

[DarrinS]

again

I do not know why the President does not try to make history

create another Manhattan project, smaller obviously than the original one, but still a large focused project funded by the government

it's goal : to find a new source of infinitely renewable clean power to replace oil, and a new engine to replace the archaic combustion engine. this will create a new industry for the world, in which America will lead in. new jobs, prestige for america, etc.

He can go down in history.

Why don't they fucking do it already?



q3nV6WqA4Y0

[ChumpDumper]

No need for emotion -- just look at examples of green failure. California immediately comes to mind.In what way is it a green failure?

[DarrinS]

In what way is it a green failure?



Well, if the goal was to make people and businesses leave the state, then it was an overwhelming success.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, if the goal was to make people and businesses leave the state, then it was an overwhelming success.Which green initiative caused that and how?

[DarrinS]

Which green initiative caused that and how?


California might possibly have the strictest environmental regulations in the US.

[ChumpDumper]

California might possibly have the strictest environmental regulations in the US.And which companies moved out due to those regulations?

[DarrinS]

And which companies moved out due to those regulations?


This guy listed 112 businesses.

http://thebusinessrelocationcoach.blogspot.com/2010/03/updated-californias-hostile-business.html




It's no mystery what causes companies to leave California -- high taxes, undue regulation, workers’ comp costs, a legal environment stacked against businesses, and lengthy and costly construction permitting requirements.

Other contributing factors include agencies being staffed with individuals unsympathetic or even hostile to business concerns. Wildly excessive government spending contributes to unpredictable government behavior at the state level and also the local level.

Apparently, No state agency keeps track of enterprises that move out of California or which companies elect to expand in other states even though they are headquartered here. That lack of knowledge is quite convenient for elected officials who deny that state's anti-business attitudes and policies hurt commercial enterprises. Hence, without a central repository, it's difficult to determine how many jobs are lost specifically because of California's unfriendly business environment.

In this blog, I've attempted to note facility moves and disinvestments in California on a catch-as-catch can basis based on incomplete media reports. Below is a roundup of activity that I've been able to find since I started this blog in July, 2009. This imperfect and incomplete list is the "tip of the iceberg" about the loss of commercial enterprises in California:

Abraxis Health, a unit of Los Angeles-based Abraxis BioScience Inc., opened a new plant that will create 200 jobs in 2010 -- in Phoenix. This follows the company's Phoenix expansions that occurred in 2007 and 2008.
Alza Corp. in 2007 eliminated about 600 jobs in drug R&D while also exiting its Mountain View, Calif., HQ. At the time the company said that its 1,200-person Vacaville facility will continue to operate. But the Vacaville Reporter on Oct. 23, 2009 revealed that the plant is being offered for sale by J&J, its parent company. It's unclear if more layoffs are in the facility's future.

American AVK, a producer of fire hydrants and other water-related products, moved from Fresno to Minden, Nevada.

American Racing moved its auto-wheel production to Mexico, ending most of its 47-year operation in California.

Apple Computer has expanded in other states, most recently with a $1 billion facility planned for North Carolina.

Audix Corporation relocated from Redwood City, Calif., and to accommodate growth moved to a 78,000-square-foot facility in Wilson, Oregon.

Apria Healthcare Group of Lake Forest is shifting jobs from California to Overland Park, Kansas, a K.C. suburb.

Assurant Inc. cut 325 jobs in Orange County and consolidated positions in Georgia, Ohio and South Carolina.

Barefoot Motors, a small "green" manufacturer, moved from Sonoma and will grow in Ashland, Oregon.

Bazz Houston Co. located in Garden Grove, has slowly been building a workforce of about 35 people in Tijuana. In early 2010 the company said it expects to move more jobs to Mexico, citing cost and regulatory difficulties in Southern California.

Beckman Coulter, a biomedical test equipment manufacturer headquartered in Brea, relocated part of its Palo Alto facilities to Indianapolis, Indiana, two years ago. In early 2010, it's making a multimillion-dollar investment to expand and create up to 100 new jobs in Indiana. The company said the area offers a "favorable business environment and lower total cost of operations, plus a local work force with strong skills in both engineering and manufacturing."

Bild Industries Inc., which specializes in business news, directories and market reports, moved to Post Falls, Idaho, from Van Nuys, a part of the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles.

Bill Miller Engineering, Ltd., suffering under the "hostile business climate" in California and Los Angeles County, moved from Harbor City to Carson City, Nevada.

BMC Select has conducted an unusual relocation. The company, which had shifted its headquarters from Idaho to San Francisco, relocated its H.Q. back to Boise in January 2010. The building materials distributor said that regaining its footing in Boise retained access to high-quality employees while reducing wage and occupancy costs.

BPI Labs, which formulates, manufactures, and fills personal care products for the health and beauty industry, relocated from Sacramento to Evanston, Wyoming, a move the company's owner called "very successful . . . . It felt good and I’ve never looked back.”

Braxton Technologies moved its headquarters and some operations from Pleasanton to Colorado Springs, Colo., where it created 100 new jobs in 2008.

BRP Billet Racing Products moved from Laguna Hills to Colorado Springs, Colorado in 2009.

Buck Knives after 62 years in San Diego moved to Post Falls, Idaho.

CalPortland Cement has announced in late 2009 closure of its Riverside County plant because of new environmental regulations from a state law (AB 32). The company's CEO wrote, "A cement plant cannot be picked up and moved, but the next new plant probably won’t be built in California meaning more good, high paying manufacturing jobs will be lost to Nevada or China or somewhere."

California Casualty Group left San Mateo for Colorado, cutting operating costs to remain competitive.

CalStar Products Inc., headquartered in Newark, Calif., in the San Francisco Bay Area, in January 2010 was awarded $2.44 million in federal clean energy tax credits. The company said in the future it expects to build additional plants in the Mississippi Valley and the East Coast. In late 2009 CalStar opened a plant in Caledonia, Wisconsin.

Cessna Aircraft Co. moved its Long Beach, Calif., service center to the Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport in Mesa, Arizona in February 2009. About 65 percent of the 75 maintenance workers accepted Cessna’s offer to relocate from Long Beach to Mesa.

Checks To-Go moved to Utah where workers' comp rates helped make the troubled company healthier.
Chivaroli & Associates, a healthcare-related insurance service based in Westlake Village, Calif., moved a regional office to Spokane, Washington.

CoreSite, A Carlyle Company, is delaying a Santa Clara project while it expands its data center in Reston, Virginia.

The Council on Education in Management moved from Walnut Creek to Charlotte, NC, in 2000.

Creators Syndicate may flee L.A. because it operates like a “banana republic.”

Creel Printing Left Costa Mesa for Las Vegas in 2009 and SoCal lost 60 more jobs.

Dassault Falcon looked at building an aircraft services facility in Riverside County but instead located in Reno.

DaVita Inc. moved its HQ from Los Angeles to Denver; expects to see millions of dollars in savings over time.

Denny’s Corp. – the large restaurant chain – once had its headquarters in La Mirada, later in Irvine, Calif, and then moved to Spartanburg, South Carolina. In fairness, I note the move occurred in the early 1990s. However it's noteworthy because the company was founded in California and its growth over time created HQ jobs in another state with an economic ripple effect in the untold millions of dollars.

Deutsch Industrial Products Division closed its Banning, Calif., facility and moved the jobs to Tennessee in 2009.

Digital Domain, the Academy-Award-winning visual effects studio based in Venice, Calif., placed new studios in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Port St. Lucie, Florida, which combined will have about 500 employees. The facilities will allow the company to reduce costs while continuing to deliver cutting-edge work.

Dimensional Fund Advisors moved its headquarters from Santa Monica to Austin, Texas, with the move to be completed in 2010.
Ditech, headquartered in Costa Mesa, announced in January 2010 a 269-job cut and is moving most activities to the GMAC Financial Services (parent company) headquarters in Fort Washington, Pennsylvania. In 2007, Ditech relocated some workers from Costa Mesa to Phoenix. A once robust Costa Mesa facility employing hundreds will be down to 20 or 30 workers.

DuPont Fabros Technology suspended a $270 million Santa Clara data center project in favor of one in Ashburn, Virginia.

eBay, based in San Jose, will create 450 jobs in Draper, Utah, in a new $334 million operations, customer support and data center.

EDMO Distributors, Inc., a world-wide wholesaler of aircraft avionics, test equipment, and pilot supplies, moved its HQ from Valencia, Calif., to Spokane Valley, Wash. Since, it has built a larger headquarters in the city's Mirabeau Point community complex.

Edwards Lifesciences based in Irvine will expand with 1,000 employees – not in California but in Draper, Utah, according to an October 2009 announcement.

EMRISE Corp. completed its HQ move from Rancho Cucamonga to Eatontown, NJ, in May 2009. The company said the move "will result in additional annualized cost savings of approximately $1 million and facilitate improvements in operating efficiency. . . . The cost savings associated with relocating our corporate headquarters will start immediately. . . The aggregate total of these expense reductions will increase our profitability and cash flow in this and succeeding years and, over time, substantially improve our ability to further reduce our long term debt.”

Facebook, based in Palo Alto, will expand in a major way in Oregon by locating a custom data center in Prineville. It will be a 147,000-square-foot facility costing $180 million and will employ 200 workers during construction and another 35 full-time once operating in 2011.
FallLine Corporation Left Huntington Beach, where they were being "hammered" with multiple governmental regulatory fees, for Reno, Nevada.

Fidelity National Financial left Santa Barbara for Florida, spurred by California's "oppressive" business environment.

First American Corp., based in Santa Ana, will open a call center in March 2010 not in California but in Phoenix, where it expects to employ about 400 people within two years.

Fluidmaster was reported by the Los Angeles Times in October 2005 to have shifted some work from "two California plants" (I believe in San Juan Capistrano and Santa Fe Springs) to factories in Mexico and China.

Fluor Corp. moved its global headquarters from Aliso Viejo to Irving, Texas, with about 100 employees asked to relocate while the company planned to hire the same number there. In 2006, when Fluor moved into its new headquarters building, a company statement said: "The official dedication had a decidedly Texas theme" as a horseshoe was raised on the building, a time-honored Texas tradition.

Foxconn Electronics, a large contract electronics maker, moved some of its Fullerton operations to Dallas.
Gregg Industries, owned by Neenah Enterprises Inc. in Wisconsin, closed a 300-employee foundry in El Monte foundry under pressure from the South Coast Air Quality Management District to make $5 million in upgrades. The company didn’t want to make the investment in the difficult economic climate so it decided instead to leave the state.
Hawker Beechcraft Services closed its Van Nuys, Calif., maintenance facility on March 31, 2009, relocating to Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport (IWA) in Mesa, Arizona.
Hayden Automotive, an auto-parts maker in Corona, Riverside County, is relocating its entire operation to facilities in Grapevine and Lewisville, Texas, in 2010. The company said it will lay off 73 people between April 1 and Oct. 1.

Helix Wind Inc. may move its research and development, engineering, and testing departments from San Diego to "more supportive" Oregon.
The Hershey Co. closed its chocolate plant in Oakdale, in Stanislaus County, Calif., and 600 jobs were lost by February 2008. Hershey's kisses with almonds and Hershey's syrup were transferred to a plant in Pennsylvania and Hershey's miniatures to a plant in Mexico.

Hewlett-Packard, HQ'd in Palo Alto, at various times has moved jobs to Tennessee and Texas.
Hilton Hotels Corp. in 2009 is moving from its longtime corporate H.Q. in Beverly Hills to a new office in Tysons Corner, Virginia.

Hino Motor Manufacturing USA moved from California to Williamstown, West Virginia, in 2007, where it now employs about 100 workers. The company has growth plans to "Raise Hino’s presence from medium-/heavy /heavy-duty trucks to all ranges of trucks" and an aggressive program to improve fuel economy and emissions. The company builds trucks under its own brand and also manufactures Toyota-branded vehicles.

Intel Corporation, HQ’d in Santa Clara, has chosen to expand operations in neighboring states.
Intuit of Mountain View created a customer support office (110 people) not in California but in Colorado because of lower operating costs.
Intuit placed a data center near Quincy, Washington.
Intuit also located Innovative Merchant Solutions LLC in Las Vegas as part of a $1.8 million investment in Nevada.

J.C. Penney closed it Sacramento call center and moved the work to five out-of-state centers.
Kimmie Candy Co., a manufacturer that was started in 1999, moved from Sacramento to Nevada in 2005. "I really don't have a lot of regrets about moving up to Reno," said owner Joe Dutra.
Klaussner Home Furnishings in closing its La Mirada manufacturing plant will maintain its NC and Iowa operations.
Knight Protective Industries moved to Oregon "where 4-day work weeks were permitted by the state" and wanted by the employees.
Kulicke & Soffa Industries Inc. announced in February 2010 that it is reducing work at its Irvine plant, laying off 56 people, and will shift work to Malaysia and Singapore. The facility had been owned by Orthodyne Electronics Corp., which Kulicke & Soffa bought in 2008.
LCF Enterprises, which makes specialized high-end amplifiers used by researchers, medical professionals and others, moved from Camarillo, Calif., to Post Falls, Idaho.
Lennox Hearth Products Inc. in Orange, Calif., will lay off 71 workers and by March 2010 will transfer the jobs to Nashville and Union City, Tennessee, "to reduce costs and increase operating efficiencies."
Lyn-Tron, Inc., a supplier of electronic hardware, moved from Los Angeles to Spokane, Wash. Their website has a rather California(ish) statement: "Our commitment is to maintain a manufacturing environment that is progressive and safe, where our employees are able to achieve their personal objectives, thereby adding to their quality of life and to the community in which they live."
Malibu Boats is moving from Merced to Knoxville in 2010. Details are difficult to come by except that it's known some Merced employees are buying houses in Knoxville.
Mariah Power, a "green" manufacturer of small wind turbines, moved from California to Nevada and in 2009 teamed up with another company to begin production in Manistee, Michigan.
Maxwell America, a boating equipment maker, in February 2010 closed its Santa Ana offices and moved them to Hanover, Md. One reason given was the indirect impact of California environmental regulations. A company official said over the years many California boat builders relocated to the Midwest and East where they don't face the same restrictions.
MiaSolé, based in the Silicon Valley, was reported in January 2010 to be planning a 500,000-square-foot plant, which could be one of the largest solar factories in the United States. The location is not near its in Santa Clara headquarters but in the Atlanta, Georgia, area where its workforce eventually could exceed 1,000. The news came one week after MiaSolé received $101.8 million in federal tax credits.
MotorVac Technologies announced in February 2010 that it's leaving Santa Ana for Ontario, Canada. MotorVac's CEO said he "really fought hard to keep MotorVac here, but unfortunately the numbers didn’t support it." The move cuts costs because it's new owner, UView, has its own plant with excess capacity in Canada. “And the general cost of doing business in California is much more expensive.”

Nissan North America moved its Los Angeles headquarters to Nashville, Tenn.
Northrop Grumman by 2011 will relocate its Los Angeles H.Q. to the Washington, DC metro area. It's the last major aerospace company to leave Southern California, the birthplace of the aerospace industry.
Olhausen Billiards relocated its headquarters, manufacturing and distribution operations from the San Diego area to Portland, Tenn. The action, completed in June 2006, brought about 130-150 new jobs to the region. The company said moving to Tennessee helps to better manage costs and stay ahead of customer demands.

One2Believe, a specialty religious-toy maker, left California for East Aurora, New York.

Patmont Motor Werks, Inc. (GoPed manufacturer), after being hit by California regulators for hundreds of thousands of dollars in small fines even though his company has a stellar safety record, moved to Nevada.
Paragon Relocation Resources moved from Rancho Santa Margarita to Dallas, a move that was completed on January 1, 2010.
Pixel Magic, headquartered in Toluca Lake, Calif., (Los Angeles metro area), is locating a studio in Lafayette, Louisiana, where it will create 40 new jobs between 2010 and 2013. The company, which provides digital effects for motion pictures and television, said the Louisiana people they were in contact with have an immediate understanding of technology and data handling.

Plastic Model Engineering, Inc., a custom plastic injection molder and mold manufacturer, moved from Sylmar, Calif. to the "Inland Northwest," notably Post Falls, Idaho.

Precor will stop manufacturing fitness machines in California and re-open in North Carolina.
Premier Inc., the largest healthcare alliance in the nation, will move its HQ from San Diego to Charlotte, involving an investment of $17.7 million and adding 300 jobs in North Carolina. The announcement was made Oct. 14, 2009.

Pro Cal of South Gate, in Los Angeles County, a unit of Myers Industries, expanded its Sparks, Nev., operations to become the company’s primary West Coast production and distribution facility. Pro Cal is a plastics manufacturer of nursery containers and a big recycler.
Race Track Chaplaincy of America started 2010 by shifting its headquarters from Los Angeles to Lexington, Kentucky. The non-profit group said it had wanted to relocate from the Hollywood Park Race Track for several reasons, one of which is the significant cost of doing business on the West Coast.
Red Truck Fire & Safety Company left Fresno for Minden, Nevada in 2007 because of California’s myriad fees and regulations that meant "death by thousand cuts."
Ropak West shut its manufacturing plant in La Mirada, Calif. in 2005, affecting 200+ employees, and moved equipment to their Illinois and Texas plants. A company insider said, "Costs and excessive regulations led to the move."

SAIC will move its headquarters east, from San Diego to McLean, Virgina, which the Washington Post called "Another Coup for Area." The announcement was made Sept. 24, 2009; it is unclear how many employees will move east in 2009 and 2010. Also, the company expanded not in San Diego but in Colorado Springs by placing 400 new jobs there in 2005.

Scale Computing, a data-storage developer and manufacturer, is leaving Silicon Valley for Indiana.
Schott Solar Inc. will close its sales and customer service office in Roseville and will relocate the office to Albuquerque, NM.

SimpleTech transferred its manufacturing work from Santa Ana to Asia more than a year ago.

Smiley Industries, an aerospace manufacturer, moved to Phoenix, where productivity improved.
Solaicx, based in the Silicon Valley, said in early 2010 that it will expand its manufacturing plant in Portland, Oregon. Solaicx received $18.2 million in federal tax credits as part of Washington's efforts to advance green energy.
SolarWorld, a maker of solar technology founded in Camarillo, consolidated manufacturing in Oregon after that state offered property tax abatement and business energy tax credits. The company will employ about 1,000 in Oregon by 2011.

Special Devices Inc. brought 250 jobs to Mesa, Arizona, from Moorpark, Calif.
StarKist headquarters is leaving San Francisco for Pittsburgh, Pa.
Stasis Engineering moved from Sonoma County to West Virginia, a "friendlier business climate."
Stata Corp., which specializes in data analysis and statistical software, moved from Santa Monica, California to College Station, Texas.
Sterling Electric, Inc., which was founded in Los Angeles in 1937 and moved to Irvine in 1968 relocated to Indianapolis effective March 1, 2007.
Tapmatic, a metalworking firm whose owners were "fed up with the onerous business environment," moved from Orange County, California to Post Falls in northern Idaho.

Teledesic moved to Washington state in anticipation of better capital gains.
Telmar Network Technology Inc. completed its move from from Irvine to Plano, Texas, in July 2009, consolidating some 150 workers there.
Terremark postponed a Santa Clara project earlier this year to invest $50 million in a Culpeper, Va. project.
Terumo Cardiovascular Systems is moving R&D from OC to Ann Arbor, Michigan, involving 65 jobs and $3.5 million in investments.
Toyota will stop making cars in Fremont, will idle 4,700 workers, and move work to Canada and San Antonio, Texas.
True Games Interactive Inc. will move its H.Q. from Irvine to Austin, Texas, where it expects to have about 60 workers by the middle of 2010.

TTM Technologies will leave L.A. & Hayward and move to other states and China to achieve big cost savings.
Twentieth Century Props of L.A. has gone out of business as film-making has moved to lower-cost states.
Understand.com moved from the San Francisco Bay Area to Reno, a loss for California in that the company is a leader in web-based patient education content and shows strong growth. The company was named 2007 Innovator of the Year by a Northern publication and the company's founder and received a media and Reno-Tahoe Young Professionals Network “20 Under 40” award and was selected as a 20/20 Business Visionary by Nevada Business Magazine.
US Airways is realigning operations and California is no longer considered part of its "core." The airline is closing its John Wayne Airport maintenance station and in early 2010 will redistribute the mechanics across its system.

US Press shifted work from Los Angeles and San Diego to Portland, "where union rules were almost rational."
USAA Insurance closed its 625-person Sacramento campus in favor of other states.
Workforce Management -- a magazine that focuses on human resources issues -- will move from Irvine to Chicago in mid-2010.
Yahoo opened a data center in Quincy, Washington, a community that now hopes to land high-tech manufacturing.

[ChumpDumper]

And which companies moved or expanded into California during the same period?

Were all those moves out due to green initiatives?

[DarrinS]

And which companies moved or expanded into California during the same period?



There is a net exodus of people and businesses from California.

[clambake]

can you find a blog that list companies that left because of green reasons?

[ChumpDumper]

There is a net exodus of people and businesses from California.How much of that is due to green initiatives?

[DarrinS]

How much of that is due to green initiatives?


Wouldn't you think that much of their strict regulations and taxes have to do with environmental regs?

The short answer is, I don't know presicely how much and neither does anyone else, so you can stop asking.

[ChumpDumper]

Wouldn't you think that much of their strict regulations and taxes have to do with environmental regs?Maybe in some cases. If you could tell me how environmental regulations affect the bottom line of, say, a call center (one of businesses you listed as moving), you might have a more convincing argument.


The short answer is, I don't know presicely how much and neither does anyone else, so you can stop asking.The short answer is, you can't really attribute any of it to green initiatives. I'm sure someone has made a study about the impact of green initiatives on California businesses, so I'll keep asking. Since you can't answer, you can stop trying to answer.

[MiamiHeat]

q3nV6WqA4Y0

I don't understand

are you trying to say that it is not possible to achieve new scientific discoveries to advance human technology?

I Do not support wind and solar panels. those things are failures.

I am talking about a completely NEW form of energy production.... and a new engine for vehicles to use this new energy source.

[ChumpDumper]

Compared to other fields, energy companies and the federal government don't spend shit on energy research.

[MiamiHeat]

Compared to other fields, energy companies and the federal government don't spend shit on energy research.

yes and why is that??? pressure from oil companies? too much money to make from selling the rest of the world's oil supply?


why doesn't the gov't create a new, big project uniting all the top scientists in the field, to work on this and create a wondrous new engine that works on a completely new type of energy production...?!?!

why why why

[ChumpDumper]

yes and why is that??? pressure from oil companies? too much money to make from selling the rest of the world's oil supply?It's a fair question -- energy companies don't even spend much on research for their own field.


why doesn't the gov't create a new, big project uniting all the top scientists in the field, to work on this and create a wondrous new engine that works on a completely new type of energy production...?!?!

why why whyI'd be pleased if government spending on clean energy research was more than one tenth of the amount it spends on health research.

[DarrinS]

yes and why is that??? pressure from oil companies? too much money to make from selling the rest of the world's oil supply?


why doesn't the gov't create a new, big project uniting all the top scientists in the field, to work on this and create a wondrous new engine that works on a completely new type of energy production...?!?!

why why why



We can already create fully electric vehicles.

Where do you propose we get the energy?

[MiamiHeat]

We can already create fully electric vehicles.

Where do you propose we get the energy?

1) electric vehicles require electricity

the electricity we produce mainly comes from burning coal.....

unless you count Nuclear plants which are dirty.........or hydroelectric which is not possible everywhere.


2) and where do I propose we get this new energy?

First of all, you are not thinking out of the box. You are thinking, "Hey we need to find a new foul source!"

like, a new type of oil, or natural resource. That's not what I'm talking about.

I am talking about a NEW PRODUCTION METHOD of energy.

A self-sustaining, indefinite source of energy production, perhaps a new form of chemical reactions combined with fusion, or a new magneto-electric electron harvester, who fucking knows

It's a fucking scientific project. That's the point of having it. If I knew where, i'd be a famous scientist, now wouldn't I ?

geez Darrin

[MiamiHeat]

one idea i have thought about was to replicate what the sky does during a thunderstorm

the intense friction and conditions to create huge amounts of electricity (lightning bolts)

if we could replicate that in a smaller, controlled engine, etc....

i don't know dude, thats the point of having a new Manhattan project.

we could solve this problem and no longer need oil or coal or even nuclear power ever again.

[MannyIsGod]

The amount of energy needed to move the sky the way it does in a thunderstorm far exceeds the amount of energy output by a strike of lightning. You're talking about large scale heating required of hundreds of square miles of atmosphere. Thunderstorms release incredible amounts of energy but very little of that is through lightning.

In any event, you're right that there should be more money invested in energy research.

[MiamiHeat]

The amount of energy needed to move the sky the way it does in a thunderstorm far exceeds the amount of energy output by a strike of lightning. You're talking about large scale heating required of hundreds of square miles of atmosphere. Thunderstorms release incredible amounts of energy but very little of that is through lightning.

In any event, you're right that there should be more money invested in energy research.

you are talking about heating the actual sky

i never mentioned that. that's crazy.

i was thinking about replicating something similar to what the sky does, in a smaller, controlled engine... to produce electricity in adequate bursts.

either way, i'm not a famous scientist.

the fact remains, when we put our best minds to work together towards a goal, we can achieve it.

[DarrinS]

you are talking about heating the actual sky

i never mentioned that. that's crazy.

i was thinking about replicating something similar to what the sky does, in a smaller, controlled engine... to produce electricity in adequate bursts.

either way, i'm not a famous scientist.

the fact remains, when we put our best minds to work together towards a goal, we can achieve it.



Did you just watch "Back to the Future" or something?

[Wild Cobra]

i was thinking about replicating something similar to what the sky does, in a smaller, controlled engine... to produce electricity in adequate bursts.

I did the calculations of power of a lightning strike once. I forget the numbers, but when you account for the giga-watts a single strike produces in a fraction of a second, spread that power out over time, it really isn't that much power.

Let's assume 2 gigawatts for 1/4 second. There are 3600 seconds in an hour. 2,000,000,000 / 3600 / 4 = 2,222.222 kilo-watt-hours of electricity. I think I use about that much in a month. How many lightning strikes a month would you need to efficiently capture to help power a grid?

Regardless, in a control chamber, you will get less power out than you put into it.

[MiamiHeat]

Did you just watch "Back to the Future" or something?

DarrinS when talking to NASA in 1960 :

"Venture into outer space and go to the moon? what, did you just watch The Day The Earth Stood Still or something?"

[MiamiHeat]

I did the calculations of power of a lightning strike once. I forget the numbers, but when you account for the giga-watts a single strike produces in a fraction of a second, spread that power out over time, it really isn't that much power.

Let's assume 2 gigawatts for 1/4 second. There are 3600 seconds in an hour. 2,000,000,000 / 3600 / 4 = 2,222.222 kilo-watt-hours of electricity. I think I use about that much in a month. How many lightning strikes a month would you need to efficiently capture to help power a grid?

Regardless, in a control chamber, you will get less power out than you put into it.


you are the 2nd person to not understand what I am saying ;p


think of a box. we will call it this new engine.

inside this box, there is advanced technology that can recreate intense friction/etc.. it collects air from the surrounding area, and once the engine is stimulated further, the electrons reach their critical point in which it releases a burst of electricity in which we will call it mini-lightning. the engine collects it as electricity

and it all happens inside of this new engine (whatever size required) inside of your vehicle

i'm not talking about collecting lightning from the actual sky...


i'm talking about copying mother nature and tweaking the process so that it creates large amounts of burst electricity (mini-lightning) on demand whenever we need it.

you could theoretically go anywhere you wanted to without every worrying about a power source or fuel, for x amount of time because the engine creates it's own electricity using this process.

but whofucking knows, scientists can solve this energy problem if they were focused and funded and motivated.

[DarrinS]

you are the 2nd person to not understand what I am saying ;p


think of a box. we will call it this new engine.

inside this box, there is advanced technology that can recreate intense friction/etc.. it collects air from the surrounding area, and once the engine is stimulated further, the electrons reach their critical point in which it releases a burst of electricity in which we will call it mini-lightning. the engine collects it as electricity

and it all happens inside of this new engine (whatever size required) inside of your vehicle

i'm not talking about collecting lightning from the actual sky...


i'm talking about copying mother nature and tweaking the process so that it creates large amounts of burst electricity (mini-lightning) on demand whenever we need it.

you could theoretically go anywhere you wanted to without every worrying about a power source or fuel, for x amount of time because the engine creates it's own electricity using this process.

but whofucking knows, scientists can solve this energy problem if they were focused and funded and motivated.


That sounds brilliant. :rolleyes

If you drag your feet on the ground (friction) and get a spark when you touch a door knob, you had to input MUCH more energy that you got out.

[MiamiHeat]

That sounds brilliant. :rolleyes

If you drag your feet on the ground (friction) and get a spark when you touch a door knob, you had to input MUCH more energy that you got out.

am I a fucking scientist?

Way to dodge the question, you are running away

A new large funded project could develop new tech.

you don't seem to believe in science :lol

[DarrinS]

I actually don't think there's anything wrong with our current energy production methods and the internal combustion engine. We just need an alternate fuel source.


I've heard that some researchers are having good results producing a bio fuel with rapidly growing algae. Algae also has the benefit that it eats CO2 (for those of you worried about that toxic substance).

[DarrinS]

am I a fucking scientist?

Way to dodge the question, you are running away

A new large funded project could develop new tech.

you don't seem to believe in science :lol



I've made quite a good living as an engineer for the past 25 years.

I just think Faraday's prinicple of induction is very practical. That's why we've used it for so long.

[ChumpDumper]

What do you think would be a good percentage of an energy company's budget to be spent on R&D?

[MiamiHeat]

I actually don't think there's anything wrong with our current energy production methods and the internal combustion engine. We just need an alternate fuel source.


I've heard that some researchers are having good results producing a bio fuel with rapidly growing algae. Algae also has the benefit that it eats CO2 (for those of you worried about that toxic substance).

yeah I've read about the algae, it's interesting BUT

it still creates an industry in which people have to pay for fuel.

I'd rather science take the next leap already and create an engine that is completely self-sufficient and only requires maintenance.

one less thing for citizens to have to waste money on

[MiamiHeat]

I've made quite a good living as an engineer for the past 25 years.

I just think Faraday's prinicple of induction is very practical. That's why we've used it for so long.


but why are you singling out an amateur (me) unimportant examples of a much bigger problem? really, are you trolling? cause you can't be serious.... my examples were just shooting the shit to give an idea of what scientists should come up with. for all I know, it will have NOTHING to do with electricity.

Do you not believe that science can discover a new form of energy production?

[MiamiHeat]

What do you think would be a good percentage of an energy company's budget to be spent on R&D?

conflict of interest.

Private corporations will NEVER allow their R&D departments to develop a technology that does not benefit them financially.

they will tell them to stop and focus on a more "financially lucrative" path.

the government has to do it, or we have to wait a long time until some genius in his spare time surprises the world again.

[DarrinS]

yeah I've read about the algae, it's interesting BUT

it still creates an industry in which people have to pay for fuel.

I'd rather science take the next leap already and create an engine that is completely self-sufficient and only requires maintenance.

one less thing for citizens to have to waste money on


There will always be SOME kind of fuel, regardless of engine design. If memory serves, I think a perpetual motion machine violates the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.


That's why scientists don't waste their time trying to create one.

[ChumpDumper]

conflict of interest.

Private corporations will NEVER allow their R&D departments to develop a technology that does not benefit them financially.Why would it not benefit them financially if they were successful?

Energy companies DO spend money on R&D. Just not all that much.

[DarrinS]

conflict of interest.

Private corporations will NEVER allow their R&D departments to develop a technology that does not benefit them financially.

they will tell them to stop and focus on a more "financially lucrative" path.

the government has to do it, or we have to wait a long time until some genius in his spare time surprises the world again.



When it comes to innovation, the govt's track record isn't quite as good as the private sector.

[MiamiHeat]

There will always be SOME kind of fuel, regardless of engine design. If memory serves, I think a perpetual motion machine violates the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.


That's why scientists don't waste their time trying to create one.

It wouldn't be perpetual motion, though.

For instance.

Nuclear reactors last for about 30+ years before they need to be refueled.

That's 30 fucking years.

Scientists can come up with another way to produce energy that lasts a long time like that.

[MiamiHeat]

When it comes to innovation, the govt's track record isn't quite as good as the private sector.

Once again completely dodging the main question.

Is it your stance that a private corporation will waste resources to develop tech that does not benefit them financially?

[DarrinS]

Once again completely dodging the main question.

Is it your stance that a private corporation will waste resources to develop tech that does not benefit them financially?


No, a private company won't settle for a negative rate of return. That's how govt does business.

[Wild Cobra]

you are the 2nd person to not understand what I am saying ;pI understood. The last part of my earlier response:

Regardless, in a control chamber, you will get less power out than you put into it.
With the intensity of lightning, I was pointing out the relatively small power from what people think it is. Scale that down to how small? How insignificant is any power you can now generate?

[Wild Cobra]

I'd rather science take the next leap already and create an engine that is completely self-sufficient and only requires maintenance.

Yes, the never ending quest for a perpetual motion machine.

Does it run on unobtainium?

[MiamiHeat]

Yes, the never ending quest for a perpetual motion machine.

Does it run on unobtainium?

nuclear power is self-sufficient and nuclear power plants go unmanned for days at a time. it also lasts a very very very long time.

no perpetual motion garbage here.

[Drachen]

I understood. The last part of my earlier response:

With the intensity of lightning, I was pointing out the relatively small power from what people think it is. Scale that down to how small? How insignificant is any power you can now generate?

You still misunderstood his whole point. He didn't say that we should mobilize legions of scientists, funding, etc. in order to create a miniature thunderstorm underneath the hood of a car. He said that we should mobilize legions of scientists, funding, etc. in order to create a new energy source/method of producing energy. Oh and in addition to that he has always wondered about the possibility of creating a miniature thunderstorm underneath the hood of the car (for EXAMPLE). Y'all are trying (and succeeding, he did mention he isn't a scientist, he is just letting his imagination wander) to discredit the thunderstorm part and completely ignoring the actual important part: Funding research into new means/methods of producing energy.

[DarrinS]

At the end of the day, even nuclear power heats water to spin turbines that, in turn, drive generators.


When you guys come up with a means to generate power that doesn't involve Faraday's principle of induction, let me know.


Otherwise, all this talk of "lightning in a bottle" is just childlike fantasy.

[DarrinS]

nuclear power is self-sufficient and nuclear power plants go unmanned for days at a time. it also lasts a very very very long time.

no perpetual motion garbage here.



We should use nuclear power. It's the greenies that hate it.

[boutons_deux]

"nuclear power is self-sufficient"

total BULLSHIT

[jack sommerset]

The moon has something. I just know it.

[NFGIII]

again

I do not know why the President does not try to make history

create another Manhattan project, smaller obviously than the original one, but still a large focused project funded by the government

it's goal : to find a new source of infinitely renewable clean power to replace oil, and a new engine to replace the archaic combustion engine. this will create a new industry for the world, in which America will lead in. new jobs, prestige for america, etc.

He can go down in history.

Why don't they fucking do it already?

Agreed. Why hasn't something been initiated along those lines? If not the government then some company that can then market it and make oodles of money off the new technology. Let's face it most companies wont fund research unless there is a profit to be had. And I can't blame then for that.

Answer: Money :greedy:greedy:greedy and lots of it.

From memory at the time and I haven't been able to find a link to it or the inventors names but I did read about the following:

So what if the auto industry came out with an engine that gets approx. 84 mpg / no sparks plugs / 100.000 miles per oil change that fits a auto body the size of the old Mercury Capri? Though based on gasoline wouldn't that at least help the situation? Call it a stop gap/transitionary type of situation. Not a permanent solution but one that will at least buy some more time in order to invent/ make economically feasible other types of energy.

Well back in the late '70s - I think '78 - '79 - two inventors in Florida did just that. And they tried to peddle it to the government. A senator even road in it and thought it a great idea. For $6K they would renovate your existing auto and and the savings on gas and tuneups would pay for itself over time. And since the USA had just gone through an energy crisis in '74 with gas lines and such it was an idea that seemed to have promise. Unfortunately they dieappeared as rapidly as they came onto the scene. The scuttlebutt was that the auto industry bought them out for somewhere in the vicinity of $100 Million or so. Ford, GM and Mercedes Benz were all supposed buyers. That technoligy never hit the market. Many in favor of it stated that the auto indusrty couldn't afford for it to be available and just bought the rights to it and them promptly shelved it. The loss in auto parts sales and tuneups alone were calculated to be substantial.

That is an example of why business won't do someting just for the sake of the enviroment or humanity for that matter. There must be a financial gain for business to either fund or pursue it. Or if thay did such a thing then they have come to a conclusion that theie very existence as a business depends on it. That's why they are in "business".

Greedy but and unfortunate aspect yet neccessary driving force to capitalism. Or at least up to this point in history.



"nuclear power is self-sufficient"

total BULLSHIT

I agreee that the statement isn't quite true in terms of absolutes but nuclear power through fusion - that based on hydrogen or its isotopes - is the most efficient form of energy in the universe. Has little waste and is the most abundent element available anywhere. The universe is made up of 70%+ of hydrogen IIRC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_plant:

Fusion power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power) advocates commonly propose the use of deuterium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium), or tritium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium), both isotopes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotope) of hydrogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen), as fuel and in many current designs also lithium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium) and boron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron). Assuming a fusion energy output equal to the current global output and that this does not increase in the future, then the known current lithium reserves would last 3000 years, lithium from sea water would last 60 million years, and a more complicated fusion process using only deuterium from sea water would have fuel for 150 billion years.[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_plant#cite_note-59) Although this process has yet to be realized, many experts and civilians alike believe fusion to be a promising future energy source due to the short lived radioactivity of the produced waste, its low carbon emissions, and its prospective power output.

Since the oil crisis of the '70s I have always been an advocate of nuclear power. Initially due to the fact that I believed in weening the USA off of foreign energy resources but as time progressed the enviromental impact it would have on both the USA and the world.

[MiamiHeat]

Agreed. Why hasn't something been initiated along those lines? If not the government then some company that can then market it and make oodles of money off the new technology. Let's face it most companies wont fund research unless there is a profit to be had. And I can't blame then for that.

Answer: Money :greedy:greedy:greedy and lots of it.

From memory at the time and I haven't been able to find a link to it or the inventors names but I did read about the following:

So what if the auto industry came out with an engine that gets approx. 84 mpg / no sparks plugs / 100.000 miles per oil change that fits a auto body the size of the old Mercury Capri? Though based on gasoline wouldn't that at least help the situation? Call it a stop gap/transitionary type of situation. Not a permanent solution but one that will at least buy some more time in order to invent/ make economically feasible other types of energy.

Well back in the late '70s - I think '78 - '79 - two inventors in Florida did just that. And they tried to peddle it to the government. A senator even road in it and thought it a great idea. For $6K they would renovate your existing auto and and the savings on gas and tuneups would pay for itself over time. And since the USA had just gone through an energy crisis in '74 with gas lines and such it was an idea that seemed to have promise. Unfortunately they dieappeared as rapidly as they came onto the scene. The scuttlebutt was that the auto industry bought them out for somewhere in the vicinity of $100 Million or so. Ford, GM and Mercedes Benz were all supposed buyers. That technoligy never hit the market. Many in favor of it stated that the auto indusrty couldn't afford for it to be available and just bought the rights to it and them promptly shelved it. The loss in auto parts sales and tuneups alone were calculated to be substantial.

That is an example of why business won't do someting just for the sake of the enviroment or humanity for that matter. There must be a financial gain for business to either fund or pursue it. Or if thay did such a thing then they have come to a conclusion that theie very existence as a business depends on it. That's why they are in "business".

Greedy but and unfortunate aspect yet neccessary driving force to capitalism. Or at least up to this point in history.


Exactly, and this is a crime against humanity imo.

Human scientific progress is stunted. A better way of living for the world's population, with less stress, less wars, will never be achieved with the current model of GREED.

It has to change. Only people with $$$ can change anything. In this case, the government has to do it, because the rich will not.

Nikola Tesla was going into amazing fields of science, but he had to depend on a fucking greedy businessman to finance him, JP Morgan.

Once JP Morgan found out that he could not make money off the inventions Tesla was planning, he pulled funding.

It doesn't matter that HUMANITY would benefit, he doesn't give a fuck.

These type of "human beings" we call businessmen are the scum of planet earth. They seek profits from EVERYTHING, including deaths and WAR such as the Military-Industrial Complex.

and in my opinion, we need to reform capitalism.

This is a shitfest we are living in, a black age just as bad as the Middle ages that was stunted by religious fanaticism.

[RandomGuy]

When it comes to innovation, the govt's track record isn't quite as good as the private sector.

atomic weapons and moon shots aside.... :rolleyes

The government can do things that private investors can't:

Spend money on basic research that might be of limited profitability in the short term.

[RandomGuy]

It wouldn't be perpetual motion, though.

For instance.

Nuclear reactors last for about 30+ years before they need to be refueled.

That's 30 fucking years.

Scientists can come up with another way to produce energy that lasts a long time like that.

Nuclear reactors have always required massive government subsidies to be built, and no nuclear power plant in the US has ever been built for LESS than 200% more than original estimates.

As for 30 years between refueling: Link?

I am fairly sure that is incorrect.

[MiamiHeat]

Nuclear reactors have always required massive government subsidies to be built, and no nuclear power plant in the US has ever been built for LESS than 200% more than original estimates.

As for 30 years between refueling: Link?

I am fairly sure that is incorrect.

battleships nuclear reactors go 30 years before refueling

however,

standard nuclear power plants go about 3 years before refueling.

still a long fucking time.

scientific progress is taking a back seat to commercial profitability. it has to end...

[NFGIII]

Exactly, and this is a crime against humanity imo.

Human scientific progress is stunted. A better way of living for the world's population, with less stress, less wars, will never be achieved with the current model of GREED.

It has to change. Only people with $$$ can change anything. In this case, the government has to do it, because the rich will not.

Nikola Tesla was going into amazing fields of science, but he had to depend on a fucking greedy businessman to finance him, JP Morgan.

Once JP Morgan found out that he could not make money off the inventions Tesla was planning, he pulled funding.

It doesn't matter that HUMANITY would benefit, he doesn't give a fuck.

These type of "human beings" we call businessmen are the scum of planet earth. They seek profits from EVERYTHING, including deaths and WAR such as the Military-Industrial Complex.

and in my opinion, we need to reform capitalism.

This is a shitfest we are living in, a black age just as bad as the Middle ages that was stunted by religious fanaticism.


Though I wouldn't call them the scum of the earth they are a product of our human evolution. Regardless of what people think our species is evolving towards a more humane view of people. IMO. There will be a lot of bumps in the road but if you just look at the last thousand or so years there has been tremendous progress in how we treat others, ilrespective of the Hitlers, Stalins, Maos...etc that have come and gone. Life spans have increased dramatically and the standard of living under capitalism is the highest in recorded human history. We, as a species, seem to take baby steps when it comes to dramatic changes in lifestyles and/or views of life. It took Christianity almost 300 years to become the established - not prosecuted - religion in the Roman Empire and only because Constantine thought it would bring him a military victory.

Slavery was probbably the second oldest institution (prostitution being the oldest) on earth prior to it being looked upan as evil starting back around 500 years or so. Great Britian became the first European nation to outlaw it in 1833 but if you look at the great empires in histroy, particularly the Roman one, they couldn't have been built or expanded as far as they did without slavery. They just wouldn't have had the manpower to do the things they did without slaves. Even the Bible never really spoke out against it and Paul spoke to slaves about their being obedient to their earthly masters (Eph 6:5-9; Col 3:22-25). That was used as biblical justification for slavery by Southern ministers prior to he Civil War. Woman didn't get the right to vote until the 20th century and the list goes on.

Not defending those "scum" but just saying. Though I do argue and put my 2 cents in I tend to look at "US" in a more historical perspective and not get too worked up over the day to day stuff. Our species tends to incorporate things slowly rather taking dramatic leaps in evolutionary behavior.

[MiamiHeat]

Capitalism is better than other forms currently or in the past, yes, but I'm looking at it in a bigger context.

There are many evils and we are far from where we should be going.

[DarrinS]

atomic weapons and moon shots aside.... :rolleyes

The government can do things that private investors can't:

Spend money on basic research that might be of limited profitability in the short term.


The govt used no private contractors to produce atomic weapons, rockets, or the internet. :rolleyes

[MiamiHeat]

The govt used no private contractors to produce atomic weapons, rockets, or the internet. :rolleyes

^^^^^ Admitting the government has successfully organized and allocated funds, leading to wonderful results :lol:lol

[DarrinS]

Capitalism is better than other forms currently or in the past, yes, but I'm looking at it in a bigger context.

There are many evils and we are far from where we should be going.



Your posts in this thread are silly. If there's money to be made in alternative energy, venture capitalists will be all over that shit. Isn't that what T. Boone Pickens was doing with his wind farm?

[MiamiHeat]

Your posts in this thread are silly. If there's money to be made in alternative energy, venture capitalists will be all over that shit. Isn't that what T. Boone Pickens was doing with his wind farm?

Maybe if you read them before making silly statements....

I seem to recall saying

"I do not support wind or solar panels. they are failures"


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4380822&postcount=160

[MiamiHeat]

also, I DO NOT CARE if companies spend 10000000000 dollars on Research and development.

THEY ARE PRIVATE COMPANIES, with the SOLE INTEREST OF INCREASING PROFITS.

Therefore, the world CANNOT depend on them to advance scientific endeavors...

ESPECIALLY not a humanitarian achievement that would yield no profit, but be of GREAT Value to the human race.


That has to be done by benevolent and generous wealthy men (lol), random genius in their spare time in their garages (once every 100 years), or the government.

[DarrinS]

also, I DO NOT CARE if companies spend 10000000000 dollars on Research and development.

THEY ARE PRIVATE COMPANIES, with the SOLE INTEREST OF INCREASING PROFITS.




So, you think there's no profit to be made in ENERGY?

At some point in history, don't you think an offshore drilling platform was a scientific achievement? Don't you think a nuclear reactor was a scientific achievement? Do you think defense contractors work for free?

[MiamiHeat]

So, you think there's no profit to be made in ENERGY?

At some point in history, don't you think an offshore drilling platform was a scientific achievement? Don't you think a nuclear reactor was a scientific achievement? Do you think defense contractors work for free?

DarrinS,

the fail is so large with you, that I am losing interest in communicating with you.

I have to point things out to you every time, and you never learn, and you ignore the parts where you get shown how wrong you were.


1) Nuclear reactors were a product of humble scientists and universities.

2) Defense contractors are funded by who? That's right, the government. The government TELLS THEM what to develop, and they are paid to do it. This is the DIRECTION we are talking about in this thread. Government directed-funded research. Thanks for proving my point.

3) Off-shore drilling..? sigh. You can't be serious.

[DarrinS]

DarrinS,

the fail is so large with you, that I am losing interest in communicating with you.

I have to point things out to you every time, and you never learn, and you ignore the parts where you get shown how wrong you were.


1) Nuclear reactors were a product of humble scientists and universities.

2) Defense contractors are funded by who? That's right, the government. The government TELLS THEM what to develop, and they are paid to do it. This is the DIRECTION we are talking about in this thread. Government directed-funded research. Thanks for proving my point.

3) Off-shore drilling..? sigh. You can't be serious.



Short list of private renewable energy companies

Abengoa, SA BMAD ABG - Solar thermal
Aleo solar FWB AS1 2006 Photovoltaics
Alternative Energy, LTD LSE ALR 2003 Renewables
Americas Wind Energy Corporation OTC AWNE 2006 Wind
Applied Solar, INC NASDAQ - 2005 Photovoltaics [1]
Ascent Solar Technologies, INC NASDAQ ASTI 2006 Photovoltaics
Aventine Renewable Energy NYSE AVR - Bioenergy
Canadian Hydro Developers, INC TSX KHD 2001 Hydro
Canadian Solar, INC NASDAQ CSIQ 2006 Photovoltaics
Centrosolar Group, AG FWB C3O 2005 Photovoltaics
Ceramic Fuel Cells, LTD ASX CFU 2004 Fuel Cells
China Sunergy Co, LTD NASDAQ CSUN 2007 Photovoltaics
Clipper Windpower, PLC LSE CWP 2005 Wind
Conergy, AG FWB CGY - Photovoltaics
Clenergen Corporation, OTC CRGE - Biomass
Dyesol, LTD ASX DYE 2005 Photovoltaics
DayStar Technologies, INC NASDAQ DSTI 2004 Photovoltaics
DelSolar Co, LTD - 3599 - Photovoltaics
ersol Solar Energy, AG FWB ES6 - Photovoltaics
Eaga, PLC LSE EAGA 2007 Energy Efficiency
EarthFirst Canada, INC TSX EF 2007 Wind
Energy Conversion Devices, INC NASDAQ ENER 1993 Photovoltaics
E-ton Solar Technology Co, LTD - 3452 - Photovoltaics
Evergreen Solar, INC NASDAQ ESLR 2000 Photovoltaics
EnviroMission, LTD ASX EVM 2005 Solar Thermal
EDP Renováveis, SA BVLP EDPR 2007 Wind [2]
Finavera Renewables, INC TSX FVR 2006 Renewables
First American Scientific Corp. OTCBB FASC 1995 Biomass
First Solar Holding, LLC NASDAQ FSLR 2007 Photovoltaics
Gintech Energy Corporation - 3514 2007 Photovoltaics
Good Energy Group, PLC LSE GEGP - Renewables
Green Energy Holding Corporation OTC GEYO 2007 Renewables
Green Plains Renewable Energy, INC NASDAQ GPRE 2007 Ethanol
GT Solar International, INC NASDAQ SOLR 2008 Solar Mfg Equipment
Iberdrola Renovables, SA BMAD IBR December 2007 Wind, Solar, Biomass
Innergex Renewable Energy, INC TSX INE 2007 Renewables
JA Solar Holdings Co, LTD NASDAQ JASO 2007 Photovoltaics
Kedco PLC AIM KED 2008 Bio Energy
Jetion Solar Holdings LTD AIM JHL 2007 Photovoltaics
LDK Solar Co, LTD NYSE LDK 2007 Photovoltaics
Neo Solar Power Corporation - 3576 - Photovoltaics
Nevada Geothermal Power, INC OTC NGLPF 2005 Geothermal
Nordex, AG FWB NDX 2001 Wind
Phoenix Solar, AG FWB PS4 2004 Photovoltaics
Polaris Geothermal, INC TSX GEO 2002 Geothermal
Pristine Power, INC TSX PRX 2002 Cogeneration
PV Crystalox Solar, PLC LSE PVCS 2007 Photovoltaics
Q-Cells, AG FWB QCE - Photovoltaics
ReneSolar, LTD AIM SOL 2007 Photovoltaics
Renewable Energy Corporation, ASA OSX REC 2006 Photovoltaics
Renewable Energy Generation, LTD LSE RWE 2005 Renewables
Renewable Energy Holdings, PLC LSE REH 2005 Renewables
Renewable Energy Resources, INC OTC RWER 2008 Hydro
Renewagy, AS OMX REN - Renewables
REpower Systems, AG FWB RPW 2006 Wind
Run of River Power, INC TSX ROR 2005 Hydro
SAG Solarstrom, AG FWB SAG - Photovoltaics
Solar-Fabrik, AG FWB SFX - Photovoltaics
Solarfun Power Holdings Co, LTD NASDAQ SOLF 2006 Photovoltaics
SolarWorld, AG FWB SWV - Photovoltaics
Solco, LTD ASX SOO 2000 Solar Thermal
SunPower Corporation NASDAQ SPWR - Photovoltaics
Suntech Power NYSE STP - Photovoltaics
Tiger Renewable Energy, LTD OTC TGRW - Ethanol
Trina Solar, LTD NASDAQ TSL 2006 Photovoltaics
Verenium Corporation NASDAQ VRNM - Biofuels
Vestas Wind Systems, AS OMX VWS - Wind
WaterFurnace Renewable Energy, INC TSX WFI 2001 Geothermal
Western Geopower Corporation TSX WGP 2001 Geothermal
Western Wind Energy Corporation TSX WND 2001 Wind
Windflow Technology, LTD NZAX WTL 2001 Wind
Yingli Green Energy Holding Co, LTD

[MiamiHeat]

So you admit you were incorrect about Nuclear Reactors?

yes or no

[DarrinS]

So you admit you were incorrect about Nuclear Reactors?

yes or no


Huh? What did I say about nuclear reactors that you think is incorrect?

I'm all for more nuclear power.

[MiamiHeat]

Huh? What did I say about nuclear reactors that you think is incorrect?



:lol :rollin

[DarrinS]

:lol :rollin

:downspin:

[RandomGuy]

We should use nuclear power. It's the greenies that hate it.

Please explain to me where we would store the waste and how you propose to ram a waste storage facility down some community's throat.

Then guarantee me 100% that no fuel or waste shipment will ever fall victim to 12-20 guys with automatic weapons, high explosives, and who aren't afraid to die, and whose only desire is to spread that waste/fuel over as wide a metropolitan area as possible and expose as many people as possible.

Then be honest and triple the costs of any construction, so as to be inline with historical cost overruns at nuclear plants, and do a solid cost analysis comparing output and total costs per kWh to an alternative source of energy.

[DarrinS]

Please explain to me where we would store the waste and how you propose to ram a waste storage facility down some community's throat.

Then guarantee me 100% that no fuel or waste shipment will ever fall victim to 12-20 guys with automatic weapons, high explosives, and who aren't afraid to die, and whose only desire is to spread that waste/fuel over as wide a metropolitan area as possible and expose as many people as possible.

Then be honest and triple the costs of any construction, so as to be inline with historical cost overruns at nuclear plants, and do a solid cost analysis comparing output and total costs per kWh to an alternative source of energy.



France has something like 60 nuclear reactors that supply over 75% of their energy. They also have the highest Muslim population of any Euro country, so I hope they have good security.

[RandomGuy]

battleships nuclear reactors go 30 years before refueling

however,

standard nuclear power plants go about 3 years before refueling.

still a long fucking time.

scientific progress is taking a back seat to commercial profitability. it has to end...

Construction cost overruns have nothing to do with scientific progress.

It has to do with people lying about how much it really will cost. SA has some pretty recent and concrete examples where the people wanted to expand the nukes were pretty much lying and deliberately concealing the ultimate price tag.

I am not against nukes per se, but I see some very definite drawbacks that are not being addressed from a practical standpoint.

If you can address those drawbacks, then fine, massively ramp up nuclear power.

Until then, the best data that I have found suggests that the costs far outweigh the benefits. Nothing I have seen here yet has addressed that.

[RandomGuy]

France has something like 60 nuclear reactors that supply over 75% of their energy. They also have the highest Muslim population of any Euro country, so I hope they have good security.

France is smaller than the US, and consumes about 60% as much electricity per capita. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption

I hope they do have good security.

A similar % in the US would require the construction of, conservatively, about 400 new nuclear power plants, and more in the range of about 700, given realistic assumptions.

The US would require ten times the number of reactors that the French do.

Quite the security challenge to guard all those fuel/waste shipments, yes or no?

[RandomGuy]

Assuming the given "every 3 years" fueling for a modern commercial reactor, 700 reactors would require 233 fuel shipments per year, with a similar number of waste shipments. Add security for those, as well as the kinds of security required for the reactors themselves.

$$$$$ and a major cost not associated with renewables.

I am all for some expansion of nuclear capacity, if only to get some good data as to the real costs per kWh, so we can make some good choices using better data.

I am willing to accept some risks of suicide attacks on fuel/waste shipments, but I will be the first to admit that carries with it some pretty catastrophic consequences should there be one failure.

What no one has explained to me yet is where we store the waste. Yes, I know about yucca mountain. Do we sweep aside the lawsuits of the local communities, forgo their rights so that we can have nuclear power?

[boutons_deux]

check the price of kilowatt hour in Europe vs USA, residential and commercial

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprih.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprii.html

[Wild Cobra]

check the price of kilowatt hour in Europe vs USA, residential and commercial

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprih.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprii.html
What is the price when you remove the taxes? Those prices include tax, and Europe has a heavy consumption tax burden.

[Wild Cobra]

France has something like 60 nuclear reactors that supply over 75% of their energy. They also have the highest Muslim population of any Euro country, so I hope they have good security.
Reactor grade fuel is not weapons grade. If you can convert it to weapons grade, then you can start with the raw ore.

[boutons_deux]

"What is the price when you remove the taxes?"

what does it matter?

the prices influence consumption no matter what the tax policy component is, like Euro gasoline is already heavily "carbon taxed" to force down transport consumption.

I don't think there is TVA on, eg, French electricity, just like in TX there are more sales tax breaks than there are state sales tax revenues.

[MiamiHeat]

What no one has explained to me yet is where we store the waste. Yes, I know about yucca mountain. Do we sweep aside the lawsuits of the local communities, forgo their rights so that we can have nuclear power?

How about at the bottom of the ocean in the marianna trench?

or maybe drill holes in the ocean's crust and bury them down there?

or what happens when you throw this waste into an active volcano? will the lava melt it, disperse it to small quantities of radiation or even destroy it?

[Wild Cobra]

"What is the price when you remove the taxes?"

what does it matter?

You gave the prices. Are you saying you made a useless posting? Why give comparative pricing if it's in a manner that doesn't matter? A real comparison would be the cost of producing the power. Not the cost of buying the power.

[Wild Cobra]

How about at the bottom of the ocean in the marianna trench?

or maybe drill holes in the ocean's crust and bury them down there?

or what happens when you throw this waste into an active volcano? will the lava melt it, disperse it to small quantities of radiation or even destroy it?
I say we pelletize it and drop the pellets in a big oil well.

They will sink to the bottom of the reservoir. If by some chance the pellets broke down, they are already in a polluted region that is contained. Hydrocarbons don't retain the radiation, so pumping the oil is still no problem.

[RandomGuy]

Short list of private renewable energy companies

Abengoa, SA BMAD ABG - Solar thermal
Aleo solar FWB AS1 2006 Photovoltaics
Alternative Energy, LTD LSE ALR 2003 Renewables
Americas Wind Energy Corporation OTC AWNE 2006 Wind
Applied Solar, INC NASDAQ - 2005 Photovoltaics [1]
Ascent Solar Technologies, INC NASDAQ ASTI 2006 Photovoltaics
Aventine Renewable Energy NYSE AVR - Bioenergy
Canadian Hydro Developers, INC TSX KHD 2001 Hydro
Canadian Solar, INC NASDAQ CSIQ 2006 Photovoltaics
Centrosolar Group, AG FWB C3O 2005 Photovoltaics
Ceramic Fuel Cells, LTD ASX CFU 2004 Fuel Cells
China Sunergy Co, LTD NASDAQ CSUN 2007 Photovoltaics
Clipper Windpower, PLC LSE CWP 2005 Wind
Conergy, AG FWB CGY - Photovoltaics
Clenergen Corporation, OTC CRGE - Biomass
Dyesol, LTD ASX DYE 2005 Photovoltaics
DayStar Technologies, INC NASDAQ DSTI 2004 Photovoltaics
DelSolar Co, LTD - 3599 - Photovoltaics
ersol Solar Energy, AG FWB ES6 - Photovoltaics
Eaga, PLC LSE EAGA 2007 Energy Efficiency
EarthFirst Canada, INC TSX EF 2007 Wind
Energy Conversion Devices, INC NASDAQ ENER 1993 Photovoltaics
E-ton Solar Technology Co, LTD - 3452 - Photovoltaics
Evergreen Solar, INC NASDAQ ESLR 2000 Photovoltaics
EnviroMission, LTD ASX EVM 2005 Solar Thermal
EDP Renováveis, SA BVLP EDPR 2007 Wind [2]
Finavera Renewables, INC TSX FVR 2006 Renewables
First American Scientific Corp. OTCBB FASC 1995 Biomass
First Solar Holding, LLC NASDAQ FSLR 2007 Photovoltaics
Gintech Energy Corporation - 3514 2007 Photovoltaics
Good Energy Group, PLC LSE GEGP - Renewables
Green Energy Holding Corporation OTC GEYO 2007 Renewables
Green Plains Renewable Energy, INC NASDAQ GPRE 2007 Ethanol
GT Solar International, INC NASDAQ SOLR 2008 Solar Mfg Equipment
Iberdrola Renovables, SA BMAD IBR December 2007 Wind, Solar, Biomass
Innergex Renewable Energy, INC TSX INE 2007 Renewables
JA Solar Holdings Co, LTD NASDAQ JASO 2007 Photovoltaics
Kedco PLC AIM KED 2008 Bio Energy
Jetion Solar Holdings LTD AIM JHL 2007 Photovoltaics
LDK Solar Co, LTD NYSE LDK 2007 Photovoltaics
Neo Solar Power Corporation - 3576 - Photovoltaics
Nevada Geothermal Power, INC OTC NGLPF 2005 Geothermal
Nordex, AG FWB NDX 2001 Wind
Phoenix Solar, AG FWB PS4 2004 Photovoltaics
Polaris Geothermal, INC TSX GEO 2002 Geothermal
Pristine Power, INC TSX PRX 2002 Cogeneration
PV Crystalox Solar, PLC LSE PVCS 2007 Photovoltaics
Q-Cells, AG FWB QCE - Photovoltaics
ReneSolar, LTD AIM SOL 2007 Photovoltaics
Renewable Energy Corporation, ASA OSX REC 2006 Photovoltaics
Renewable Energy Generation, LTD LSE RWE 2005 Renewables
Renewable Energy Holdings, PLC LSE REH 2005 Renewables
Renewable Energy Resources, INC OTC RWER 2008 Hydro
Renewagy, AS OMX REN - Renewables
REpower Systems, AG FWB RPW 2006 Wind
Run of River Power, INC TSX ROR 2005 Hydro
SAG Solarstrom, AG FWB SAG - Photovoltaics
Solar-Fabrik, AG FWB SFX - Photovoltaics
Solarfun Power Holdings Co, LTD NASDAQ SOLF 2006 Photovoltaics
SolarWorld, AG FWB SWV - Photovoltaics
Solco, LTD ASX SOO 2000 Solar Thermal
SunPower Corporation NASDAQ SPWR - Photovoltaics
Suntech Power NYSE STP - Photovoltaics
Tiger Renewable Energy, LTD OTC TGRW - Ethanol
Trina Solar, LTD NASDAQ TSL 2006 Photovoltaics
Verenium Corporation NASDAQ VRNM - Biofuels
Vestas Wind Systems, AS OMX VWS - Wind
WaterFurnace Renewable Energy, INC TSX WFI 2001 Geothermal
Western Geopower Corporation TSX WGP 2001 Geothermal
Western Wind Energy Corporation TSX WND 2001 Wind
Windflow Technology, LTD NZAX WTL 2001 Wind
Yingli Green Energy Holding Co, LTD

Yup. Smart capital knows that oil is running out, and that alternatives will be needed, so you are seeing a flood of money being poured in.

You also forgot my personal favorite:
Solar Reserve

http://www.solarreserve.com/


SolarReserve was formed to solve two of the fundamental barriers of renewable energy: scalability and storage. Unlike hydroelectric, geothermal, biomass, and other renewable energy technologies that use limited renewable fuel sources, SolarReserve's power plants draw their heat from the sun - earth's ultimate source of clean energy. And unlike wind and photovoltaics, SolarReserve's power plants can deliver power whenever it is needed, either 24 hours per day or only during "peak" demand. By overcoming these two key barriers, SolarReserve enables utility-scale, clean, renewable electricity generation.

I would also add GE to that mix, simply because of the amount of money they put into various technologies.

[RandomGuy]

How about at the bottom of the ocean in the marianna trench?

or maybe drill holes in the ocean's crust and bury them down there?

or what happens when you throw this waste into an active volcano? will the lava melt it, disperse it to small quantities of radiation or even destroy it?

The Marianna trench is an idea that makes the rounds every once in a while.

The problem with that is that humanity has visited that trench for a grand total of 15 minutes, once a few years ago, with no plans on going back.

They have some general idea as to what goes on down there geologically, but they aren't all that sure about it.

Sink some money into some science to see if it is feasible, and that might do the trick.

The problem with throwing it into an active volcano is that volcanos are points where magma is coming UP. If you put it into a volcano, it WILL come out. Radiation would likely not be affected. Worse you put all that concentrated waste into it, and have it "blow its top" and you get the equivalent of global nuclear fallout, ala chernobyl. That would make it a Very Bad Idea.

[Wild Cobra]

Sink some money into some science to see if it is feasible, and that might do the trick.

My only concern is not knowing the biological life in the area. If we don't know how we might affect deep sea life, it's a terrible idea.

[boutons_deux]

WC Cares (c) about non-white, non-conservative, non-USA life? GMAFB

[DarrinS]

WC Cares (c) about non-white, non-conservative, non-USA life? GMAFB


boutons_douche is a white liberal with no black friends.

Correction: no friends

[RandomGuy]

My only concern is not knowing the biological life in the area. If we don't know how we might affect deep sea life, it's a terrible idea.

Seriously, who are you and what have you done with the poster formerly known as Wild Cobra? Where is the body buried? :lol

If I didn't know any better I would almost say you have mellowed slightly.

I was actually going to put this in as one of the reservations I have about dumping all manner of permanent nuclear waste in the trench, but left it unsaid.

We have very little idea how the ecosystem there interacts with the rest of the ocean. If something ruptures and leaks, a near inevitability, I would rather not have that stuff seeping into the food chain.

[Wild Cobra]

WC Cares (c) about non-white, non-conservative, non-USA life? GMAFB
You just proved how absolutely stupid you are.

[Wild Cobra]

Seriously, who are you and what have you done with the poster formerly known as Wild Cobra? Where is the body buried? :lol

Just goes to prove you have a biased opinion of me. Your bad, not mine.

[RandomGuy]

Just goes to prove you have a biased opinion of me. Your bad, not mine.

Guilty as charged.

Stop taking confirmation bias to an art form, look beyond your beliefs a bit at your underlying assumptions, and that bias will disappear. Honest. :toast

[Wild Cobra]

Guilty as charged.

Stop taking confirmation bias to an art form, look beyond your beliefs a bit at your underlying assumptions, and that bias will disappear. Honest. :toast
Excuse me if I don't believe you. I disagree I use confirmation bias. I think you're calling a rectangle a square. Remember, a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is only rarely a square.

[xrayzebra]

Short list of private renewable energy companies

Abengoa, SA BMAD ABG - Solar thermal
Aleo solar FWB AS1 2006 Photovoltaics
Alternative Energy, LTD LSE ALR 2003 Renewables
Americas Wind Energy Corporation OTC AWNE 2006 Wind
Applied Solar, INC NASDAQ - 2005 Photovoltaics [1]
Ascent Solar Technologies, INC NASDAQ ASTI 2006 Photovoltaics
Aventine Renewable Energy NYSE AVR - Bioenergy
Canadian Hydro Developers, INC TSX KHD 2001 Hydro
Canadian Solar, INC NASDAQ CSIQ 2006 Photovoltaics
Centrosolar Group, AG FWB C3O 2005 Photovoltaics
Ceramic Fuel Cells, LTD ASX CFU 2004 Fuel Cells
China Sunergy Co, LTD NASDAQ CSUN 2007 Photovoltaics
Clipper Windpower, PLC LSE CWP 2005 Wind
Conergy, AG FWB CGY - Photovoltaics
Clenergen Corporation, OTC CRGE - Biomass
Dyesol, LTD ASX DYE 2005 Photovoltaics
DayStar Technologies, INC NASDAQ DSTI 2004 Photovoltaics
DelSolar Co, LTD - 3599 - Photovoltaics
ersol Solar Energy, AG FWB ES6 - Photovoltaics
Eaga, PLC LSE EAGA 2007 Energy Efficiency
EarthFirst Canada, INC TSX EF 2007 Wind
Energy Conversion Devices, INC NASDAQ ENER 1993 Photovoltaics
E-ton Solar Technology Co, LTD - 3452 - Photovoltaics
Evergreen Solar, INC NASDAQ ESLR 2000 Photovoltaics
EnviroMission, LTD ASX EVM 2005 Solar Thermal
EDP Renováveis, SA BVLP EDPR 2007 Wind [2]
Finavera Renewables, INC TSX FVR 2006 Renewables
First American Scientific Corp. OTCBB FASC 1995 Biomass
First Solar Holding, LLC NASDAQ FSLR 2007 Photovoltaics
Gintech Energy Corporation - 3514 2007 Photovoltaics
Good Energy Group, PLC LSE GEGP - Renewables
Green Energy Holding Corporation OTC GEYO 2007 Renewables
Green Plains Renewable Energy, INC NASDAQ GPRE 2007 Ethanol
GT Solar International, INC NASDAQ SOLR 2008 Solar Mfg Equipment
Iberdrola Renovables, SA BMAD IBR December 2007 Wind, Solar, Biomass
Innergex Renewable Energy, INC TSX INE 2007 Renewables
JA Solar Holdings Co, LTD NASDAQ JASO 2007 Photovoltaics
Kedco PLC AIM KED 2008 Bio Energy
Jetion Solar Holdings LTD AIM JHL 2007 Photovoltaics
LDK Solar Co, LTD NYSE LDK 2007 Photovoltaics
Neo Solar Power Corporation - 3576 - Photovoltaics
Nevada Geothermal Power, INC OTC NGLPF 2005 Geothermal
Nordex, AG FWB NDX 2001 Wind
Phoenix Solar, AG FWB PS4 2004 Photovoltaics
Polaris Geothermal, INC TSX GEO 2002 Geothermal
Pristine Power, INC TSX PRX 2002 Cogeneration
PV Crystalox Solar, PLC LSE PVCS 2007 Photovoltaics
Q-Cells, AG FWB QCE - Photovoltaics
ReneSolar, LTD AIM SOL 2007 Photovoltaics
Renewable Energy Corporation, ASA OSX REC 2006 Photovoltaics
Renewable Energy Generation, LTD LSE RWE 2005 Renewables
Renewable Energy Holdings, PLC LSE REH 2005 Renewables
Renewable Energy Resources, INC OTC RWER 2008 Hydro
Renewagy, AS OMX REN - Renewables
REpower Systems, AG FWB RPW 2006 Wind
Run of River Power, INC TSX ROR 2005 Hydro
SAG Solarstrom, AG FWB SAG - Photovoltaics
Solar-Fabrik, AG FWB SFX - Photovoltaics
Solarfun Power Holdings Co, LTD NASDAQ SOLF 2006 Photovoltaics
SolarWorld, AG FWB SWV - Photovoltaics
Solco, LTD ASX SOO 2000 Solar Thermal
SunPower Corporation NASDAQ SPWR - Photovoltaics
Suntech Power NYSE STP - Photovoltaics
Tiger Renewable Energy, LTD OTC TGRW - Ethanol
Trina Solar, LTD NASDAQ TSL 2006 Photovoltaics
Verenium Corporation NASDAQ VRNM - Biofuels
Vestas Wind Systems, AS OMX VWS - Wind
WaterFurnace Renewable Energy, INC TSX WFI 2001 Geothermal
Western Geopower Corporation TSX WGP 2001 Geothermal
Western Wind Energy Corporation TSX WND 2001 Wind
Windflow Technology, LTD NZAX WTL 2001 Wind
Yingli Green Energy Holding Co, LTD

Are these the same companies that import all their hardware from
overseas? And I would be interested in how many people each company
employs. Maybe 1 or 2 or maeby none. Just front companies.

[RandomGuy]

Are these the same companies that import all their hardware from
overseas? And I would be interested in how many people each company
employs. Maybe 1 or 2 or maeby none. Just front companies.

Oh ye of little faith.

A Once-Dark Polaroid Factory Goes Green (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122230089&ft=1&f=1007)

Start-up spurns Texas for Mich. town (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/06/14/pm-startup-spurns-texas-for-michigan-town/)


In a few weeks, says Chitre, the first shipments of heavy machinery will hit this factory floor so GlobalWatt can produce up to a million solar panels a year. This facility used to churn out engine blocks for cars. Lots of auto jobs are gone, but Chitre says his company will be hiring some 500 people for the new operation.

That is just a couple of news sniglets.

If you actually read through the list of companies there, you can see that many of them are publicly traded.

For your browsing convenience, and because I myself was curious here are a couple nuggets with hotlinks to yahoo finance listings for the specific stocks. These are a couple of the companies that I have heard of, and that can be found traded on US exchanges.

I listed net stockholder equity, because it is a good measure of capital waiting to get sunk into factories and so forth.

First Solar Holding, LLC NASDAQ FSLR 2007 Photovoltaics Net stockholder equity $2.6bn (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=FSLR+Balance+Sheet&annual)

SunPower Corporation NASDAQ SPWR - Photovoltaics (note ticker is actually SPWRA- Net stock holder equity $1.3bn (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=SPWRA+Balance+Sheet&annual)

Those two are the largest traded on US exchanges that I found, but they certainly had more than "1 or 2" employees, and were definitely not front companies.

[RandomGuy]

bumpity

[RandomGuy]

Since thread titles with ellipses are all the rage... bump.

[Yonivore]

...I don't know where the hell we can put it,"
--Governator Schwarzenegger

I am generally for environmental protection, but at some point there MUST be a trade off. This looks like something that would require such give.
I agree.

How does it feel to have your pet cause held hostage by a few environmental extremists?

As for me, I draw the line a bit closer to realistic energy sources...like the XL Pipeline, ANWR Drilling and a return to the Gulf of Mexico.

But, if you want to illuminate the obstruction of legitimate public concerns by a few nuts, who am I to argue.

Good luck with that.

[coyotes_geek]

Looks like they're still trying to work through some issues.

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/04/28/28greenwire-us-halts-mojave-desert-solar-project-over-spec-55255.html

[RandomGuy]

I agree.

How does it feel to have your pet cause held hostage by a few environmental extremists?

As for me, I draw the line a bit closer to realistic energy sources...like the XL Pipeline, ANWR Drilling and a return to the Gulf of Mexico.

But, if you want to illuminate the obstruction of legitimate public concerns by a few nuts, who am I to argue.

Good luck with that.

It feels shitty. Fuck the turtle, gimmie power plants. Over the long run, it is better from all of us anyway.

As for your picks, "realistic" is funny. You do realize that none of those things will really affect the long-term price of oil by more than a few pennies per barrel, right?

[boutons_deux]

Goldmen Sacks Us All and other capitalists investing heavily in wind power, so I guess the right-wing hate-o-sphere is wrong, again.

[Heath Ledger]

Feinstein blocking this shit doesnt surprise me she is just protecting someones interests, follow the money.....

[DMC]

You never know.

[2centsworth]

First Solar Holding, LLC NASDAQ FSLR 2007 Photovoltaics Net stockholder equity $2.6bn (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=FSLR+Balance+Sheet&annual)

SunPower Corporation NASDAQ SPWR - Photovoltaics (note ticker is actually SPWRA- Net stock holder equity $1.3bn (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=SPWRA+Balance+Sheet&annual)

Solar getting crushed. First Solar the best of the PV companies had a losing quarter and there are rumors their panels can't tolerate extreme heat. These companies can't stand on their own two feet without government subsidies. I learned this the hard way losing 50% of an investment in FSLR. I knew better, but fell for the story.

[Wild Cobra]

Solar getting crushed. First Solar the best of the PV companies had a losing quarter and there are rumors their panels can't tolerate extreme heat. These companies can't stand on their own two feet without government subsidies. I learned this the hard way losing 50% of an investment in FSLR. I knew better, but fell for the story.
Lesson learned:

Don't invest in anything advocated by Obamanomics.

[RandomGuy]

Solar getting crushed. First Solar the best of the PV companies had a losing quarter and there are rumors their panels can't tolerate extreme heat. These companies can't stand on their own two feet without government subsidies. I learned this the hard way losing 50% of an investment in FSLR. I knew better, but fell for the story.

I think a LOT of people did.

FSLR got a lot of good press and people jumped on the bandwagon.

Long-term, the industry is consolidating, and come out the other end far stronger for having shaken out the weaker companies.

I think there was something of a bubble around them that collapsed with the financial crisis.

Current valuations are much more sane, IMO. Fukushima didn't hurt.

[RandomGuy]

Lesson learned:

Don't invest in anything advocated by Obamanomics.

You do know that these companies existed far before Obama was president, right?

:rolleyes

[coyotes_geek]

On a somewhat topical, somewhat off topic note, anyone have any thoughts/knowledge about solar attic fans? Casa de CG recently has recently undergone a free energy audit and one of the recommendations was to install solar attic fans to help cool off the attic, thus reducing AC costs.

Being a fan (pun intended) of lowered electric bills, I'm interested, provided the things are actually going to work like the person trying to sell them to me is telling me they will. The inspector (a.k.a. the salesman) told me that the fans could (operative word being "could") reduce my summertime electric bills up to 20%. Anyone have an idea how realistic that number is?