Mother kills son with a bullet to back of head at Florida shooting range

[Viva Las Espuelas]

by Our Foreign Staff
Last Updated: 1:55PM BST 08 Apr 2009


Police are investigating the bizarre murder-suicide inside a crowded shooting range.
Authorities said the woman, Marie Moore, 44, shot her son Mitchell Moore, 20, and then turned the gun on herself.
The mother who shot her son and then herself at the Shoot Straight shooting range in Casselberry yesterday left behind several notes that may partially explain her motive for the murder/suicide - she thought the end of the world was coming.
In a suicide note left for her boyfriend, whom she calls "King," Marie Moore refers to herself as a "failed queen," writing, "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to hell." She also writes "Save yourself you go to heaven with Mitch."
Casselberry Police say Moore left behind a 3 hour tape that she says would "explain everything," but they say it's mostly incoherent rambling.
In one note, Moore left instructions for her boyfriend on what to do with her truck. She also writes that she left him $7900 in cash. She warns him to save himself and go to heaven with Mitch - her son - and says that she is going to hell. She ends one of the notes by saying "I'm so sorry."
In police reports Moore's ex-husband says she was not supposed to be allowed in Shoot Straight because of a previous suicide attempt, but an attorney for the range says it's simply not true.

5vPnMbLr5nc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vPnMbLr5nc

[BacktoBasics]

Must have been god's heaven and hell plan. Executed to perfection. Thank you baby jesus for your guidance.

[IronMexican]

This shit makes me sick, I swear.

[BacktoBasics]

Why the fuck do these people always have to take others with them?

[Jesus]

Must have been god's heaven and hell plan. Executed to perfection. Thank you baby jesus for your guidance.

:sleep

[BacktoBasics]

:sleepNo wonder he's dead. Wake up already and help your people.

[JudynTX]

It's sick no matter how you look at it. :(

[Richard Cranium]

Why the fuck do these people always have to take others with them?

Seems to be happening almost on a daily basis.

[Cry Havoc]

What a sad, sad story.

[JoeChalupa]

Why the fuck do these people always have to take others with them?

I'll never understand that either. Like that idiot who killed his 5 children because his wife was leaving him.

[Borosai]

Crazies.

[SpursStalker]

That's fucked up more than words can say

[LadySpursStalker]

freaking sad

[Bigzax]

Must have been god's heaven and hell plan. Executed to perfection. Thank you baby jesus for your guidance.


damn shame mommy and daddy didn't throw you enough love buddy...:wakeup

[baseline bum]

Big surprise it was some religious nutjob.

[clambake]

i thought god decides when it's your time.

[Richard Cranium]

Big surprise it was some religious nutjob.

Plenty of non religious nutjobs out there.

[LuvBones]

Big surprise it was some religious nutjob.

Just because she went on a rant about heaven/hell doesn't mean she was religious, just a nutjob.

[BacktoBasics]

Just because she went on a rant about heaven/hell doesn't mean she was religious, just a nutjob.
sure it does.

[Strike]

Just because she went on a rant about heaven/hell doesn't mean she was religious, just a nutjob.

Really? You mean the whole "go to Heaven, I'm going to hell" thing doesn't scream religious nutjobbery to you?

[Blake]

there's a lesson here.....

when you take your crazy ass mom to the shooting range, stand behind her at all times.

[Bukefal]

damn thats sick

[mrsmaalox]

Really? You mean the whole "go to Heaven, I'm going to hell" thing doesn't scream religious nutjobbery to you?

No more than it screams anti-gun control nutjobbery. And no more than the guy who killed his 5 kids screams anti-divorce nutjobbery. It's just plain nutjobbery!

[BacktoBasics]

No more than it screams anti-gun control nutjobbery. And no more than the guy who killed his 5 kids screams anti-divorce nutjobbery. It's just plain nutjobbery!I prefer handjobbery.

[baseline bum]

Shit like this happens when you fill peoples' heads full of stupid ideas like the afterlife. She clearly thought she was doing something good for her son, and if you believe in heaven and the imaginary friend in the sky, wouldn't you agree he's in a better place too?

[JoeChalupa]

Here we go again.

[JudynTX]

Here we go again.

:lmao

[atxrocker]

fucked up shit

[SpursStalker]

there's a lesson here.....

When you take your crazy ass mom to the shooting range, stand behind her at all times.

+1

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Here we go again.
yeah, it does get pretty annoying. you're a non-believer. we get it.

[baseline bum]

yeah, it does get pretty annoying. you're a non-believer. we get it.

It's not obvious the kid would still be alive if it wasn't for her belief that she was doing something noble and sending him to an allegedly better place?

[BacktoBasics]

It's not obvious the kid would still be alive if it wasn't for her belief that she was doing something noble and sending him to an allegedly better place?Can an Admin move this to the "Painfully Obvious Despite What Most Bible Thumpers Believe" Forum. Thanks.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

It's not obvious the kid would still be alive if it wasn't for her belief that she was doing something noble and sending him to an allegedly better place?

yeah, it does get pretty annoying. you're a non-believer. we get it.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's painfully obvious that her actions ran counter to the teachings of the faith.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

It's painfully obvious that her actions ran counter to the teachings of the faith.
to most, except the dense few.

[Re-Animator]

It's painfully obvious that her actions ran counter to the teachings of the faith.

That goes for everyone.

[Re-Animator]

Can an Admin move this to the "Painfully Obvious Despite What Most Bible Thumpers Believe" Forum. Thanks.

Can we move this to the "my shit don't stink" forum.

[BacktoBasics]

Can we move this to the "my shit don't stink" forum.
Link me up. I'd like to sign up for their newsletter.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Can we move this to the "my shit don't stink" forum.
Welcome to Spurstalk!!!

[JoeChalupa]

Welcome to Spurstalk!!!

:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

It's painfully obvious that her actions ran counter to the teachings of the faith.Which faith?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Which faith?
the church of satan.


what an idiot

[Marcus Bryant]

Scientology, obviously.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

maybe that spaghetti entity.

possibly, a renegade from this dude's church
http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/files/u26/1463_heavens_gate_468.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

So you don't know which faith.

Not a problem.

I'm sure she was pretty disturbed. Many people use religion as an excuse for ridiculous actions.

[Marcus Bryant]

Judging by the original post it's obvious.

[Oh, Gee!!]

It's painfully obvious that her actions ran counter to the teachings of the faith.

so does diddling little boys, but people are sick regardless of their religion.

[Oh, Gee!!]

so does diddling little boys, but people are sick regardless of their religion.

and doing meth while receiving a "massage" from a homosexual prostitute, but I think Christians are sinners too. They fuck up like everyone else, and sometimes they kill people. the bitch was sick in the head; it doesn't matter whether she was religious or not.

[Marcus Bryant]

I had no idea Christians were sinners.

[BacktoBasics]

I had no idea Christians were sinners.The worst fucking kind.

[Marcus Bryant]

The worst fucking kind.

Not any moreso than the rest. They do occasionally recognize it though.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Judging by the original post it's obvious.

rasta?

[JoeChalupa]

I had no idea Christians were sinners.

Aren't we all?

meh, I'll leave this shit alone.

[Marcus Bryant]

Aren't we all?



Yep.

[ChumpDumper]

Judging by the original post it's obvious.Well, if we are talking about her particular faith, it's not obvious to me. There are too many flavors of religion to nail it down from those words. If we are talking about the generally accepted tenets of Christianity, sure.

[BacktoBasics]

Not any moreso than the rest. They do occasionally recognize it though.
I disagree. They're far and away the worst of the bunch.

[mrsmaalox]

You know I once had a patient who only spoke one word, "Mosca". And if you asked him to explain why, he would write a perfect dissertation on the strength of the fruitfly and his desire to be accepted by them. Was he a fruitfly disciple in the church of the mighty fruitfly in the sky? No, he was just crazy!

[Marcus Bryant]

rasta?

Gun shop in Dingleberry, FL. Surname of "Moore." Caucasian. etc.

[Marcus Bryant]

I disagree. They're far and away the worst of the bunch.

How so?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Gun shop in Dingleberry, FL. Surname of "Moore." Caucasian. etc.

russian orthodox

[The Franchise]

If she had a history of mental problems why was she allowed to rent a gun?

[Marcus Bryant]

russian orthodox

unlikely. But even then, the faith would be the same.

[Oh, Gee!!]

If she had a history of mental problems why was she allowed to rent a gun?

because it's florida--america's wang.

[Oh, Gee!!]

unlikely. But even then, the faith would be the same.

stop being cryptic, give up the name already.

[Marcus Bryant]

Islam.

[Re-Animator]

How so?

Because he says so.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Islam.

wrong. they use bombs not guns.

[BacktoBasics]

Because he says so.Right on top of things today aren't you.

[Marcus Bryant]

wrong. they use bombs not guns.

Judaism.

[I Love Me Some Me]

If her religion told her to kill her son in order to send him to heaven, then she was just following her religion, and you can hate that religion all you want

I don't know many religions that teach that.

My belief system certainly doesn't encourage murder.

[The Reckoning]

If she had a history of mental problems why was she allowed to rent a gun?

:tu. this is about her, not Christianity

[jack sommerset]

She brought him into this world and she took his ass out.

[DoubtingThomas]

She brought him into this world and she took his ass out.

That is just wrong. :wakeup

[CuckingFunt]

I think we can safely assume that she was religious and a nutjob. But we can't necessarily assume that she was a religious nutjob.

[BacktoBasics]

I think we can safely assume that she was religious and a nutjob. But we can't necessarily assume that she was a religious nutjob.Isn't the entire point of assumption is to assess whats right in front of us? She played the heaven/hell card. How could you possibly conclude anything else?

[CuckingFunt]

Isn't the entire point of assumption is to assess whats right in front of us? She played the heaven/hell card. How could you possibly conclude anything else?

Because I don't know how nutty she was about her religious beliefs in daily life. Maybe she was out on street corners everyday speaking in tongues, but maybe she was just a normal church goer who flipped out. There's a difference.

I know a lot of people who are both religious and crazy, but aren't particularly crazy in their beliefs.

[FaithInOne]

This lady had been banned from the gun range before due to mental illness. She should have never been allowed to step in there.

Without religion, these types of people would just replace their nutjobbery with something else and still do the same disgusting acts. People will blame everything on religion yet remain silent on a country dependent on Xanax.

[ClintSquint]

When shit goes bad it is because of religion when things go well it is just a coincidence.

[mavs>spurs2]

Do we have to have these retarded arguments every week?

[Marcus Bryant]

Do we have to have these retarded arguments every week?

It's the internets, what do you expect?

[JoeChalupa]

Do we have to have these retarded arguments every week?

:lmao Like clock work.

[sonic21]

freaking sad

[Blake]

Do we have to have these retarded arguments every week?

apparently so.

4>0

spurs>mavs

[CosmicCowboy]

That's why I never let my wife handle loaded guns when my son was a teenager...:lol

[ploto]

It is not the religion that makes them crazy; most likely, they seek out religion because of their problems in hope that faith will help them.

[E20]

This bitch was just a plain nutjob/mentally ill nothing more to it.

[mavs>spurs2]

apparently so.

4>0

spurs>mavs

one ring, faggot

[dirk4mvp]

apparently so.

4>0

spurs>mavs

blake = douchebag name

everyone else's name > your name

[Blake]

blake = douchebag name

everyone else's name > your name

everyone else's name > blake > dirk

at least my mommy named me blake. you've got no excuse.

[whottt]

The reason people like this kill their kids before they kill themselves is because they themselves feel death is a better alternative to life...I mean that's why they're suicidal and considering taking their own lives in the first place...because they've convinced themselves death is better. Probably other secondary thoughts like saving their loved ones from going through the suffering of dealing with the trauma of a suicide, or leaving their fate to complete strangers. Add in religious elements of eternal life and peace and a in some cases the murderer might even think they are doing their loved ones a favor since they are giving them a sinless death and sending them to heaven.


There is a logic behind it.

In this case that woman clearly loved her son. She smoked his ass in one of the most painless ways possible. That kid never knew what hit him and I doubt he felt any pain. She otoh felt she was basically condemning herself to hell with her actions but also having to go through the traumatic experience of shooting herself in the head, but was willing to do that to save her son the suffering he would face in the end of the world. This was much more traumatic for her than it was for him.


I'm not defending her actions...but there was a clear line of logic to what she did.


Now my question...why do atheists get all up in arms over things like this?

If you don't believe in god or heaven and hell then there is essentially no good or evil...no right or wrong. So why are you guys acting like this was wrong?

It's no more wrong than killing a roach or an ant according to your system of beliefs.

There's no old man passing judgement on this and sending people to heaven or hell over it...it's just a couple more dead animals. Really this woman's actions have no meaning beyond that of any one who takes a life, insect, animal or otherwise. And life...and death...go on.

So why the soapbox stance and outrage? It's just some biological organisms ceasing to function. Meaningless in the grand scheme of things...much like life and death themself.

I mean you've killed an ant because it was annoying you before, right? Same thing, right? Ant probably felt more pain than this kid did.

[JoeChalupa]

The reason people like this kill their kids before they kill themselves is because they themselves feel death is a better alternative to life...I mean that's why they're suicidal and considering taking their own lives in the first place...because they've convinced themselves death is better. Probably other secondary thoughts like saving their loved ones from going through the suffering of dealing with the trauma of a suicide, or leaving their fate to complete strangers. Add in religious elements of eternal life and peace and a in some cases the murderer might even think they are doing their loved ones a favor since they are giving them a sinless death and sending them to heaven.


There is a logic behind it.

In this case that woman clearly loved her son. She smoked his ass in one of the most painless ways possible. That kid never knew what hit him and I doubt he felt any pain. She otoh felt she was basically condemning herself to hell with her actions but also having to go through the traumatic experience of shooting herself in the head, but was willing to do that to save her son the suffering he would face in the end of the world. This was much more traumatic for her than it was for him.


I'm not defending her actions...but there was a clear line of logic to what she did.


Now my question...why do atheists get all up in arms over things like this?

If you don't believe in god or heaven and hell then there is essentially no good or evil...no right or wrong. So why are you guys acting like this was wrong?

There's no old man passing judgement on this and sending people to heaven or hell over it...it's just a couple more dead animals, and life goes on...

So why the soapbox stance and outrage? It's just some biological organisms ceasing to function.

+1 Whottt nailed it.

[Bigzax]

rack da whottt!!!

[BacktoBasics]

The reason people like this kill their kids before they kill themselves is because they themselves feel death is a better alternative to life...I mean that's why they're suicidal and considering taking their own lives in the first place...because they've convinced themselves death is better. Probably other secondary thoughts like saving their loved ones from going through the suffering of dealing with the trauma of a suicide, or leaving their fate to complete strangers. Add in religious elements of eternal life and peace and a in some cases the murderer might even think they are doing their loved ones a favor since they are giving them a sinless death and sending them to heaven.


There is a logic behind it.

In this case that woman clearly loved her son. She smoked his ass in one of the most painless ways possible. That kid never knew what hit him and I doubt he felt any pain. She otoh felt she was basically condemning herself to hell with her actions but also having to go through the traumatic experience of shooting herself in the head, but was willing to do that to save her son the suffering he would face in the end of the world. This was much more traumatic for her than it was for him.


I'm not defending her actions...but there was a clear line of logic to what she did.


Now my question...why do atheists get all up in arms over things like this?

If you don't believe in god or heaven and hell then there is essentially no good or evil...no right or wrong. So why are you guys acting like this was wrong?

It's no more wrong than killing a roach or an ant according to your system of beliefs.

There's no old man passing judgement on this and sending people to heaven or hell over it...it's just a couple more dead animals. Really this woman's actions have no meaning beyond that of any one who takes a life, insect, animal or otherwise. And life...and death...go on.

So why the soapbox stance and outrage? It's just some biological organisms ceasing to function. Meaningless in the grand scheme of things...much like life and death themself.

I mean you've killed an ant because it was annoying you before, right? Same thing, right? Ant probably felt more pain than this kid did.He didn't bite me like the ant did. He didn't lay eggs in my wall and infest my house with a putrid stink. Had he done those things obviously as an atheist he should be killed.

[BacktoBasics]

Now my question...why do atheists get all up in arms over things like this?

If you don't believe in god or heaven and hell then there is essentially no good or evil...no right or wrong. So why are you guys acting like this was wrong?

It's no more wrong than killing a roach or an ant according to your system of beliefs.

There's no old man passing judgement on this and sending people to heaven or hell over it...it's just a couple more dead animals. Really this woman's actions have no meaning beyond that of any one who takes a life, insect, animal or otherwise. And life...and death...go on.

Reading over this again. Has to be one of the dumbest things ever written. The whole point of being atheist is that we don't need a god, higher power or almighty hand to dictate whats good or evil. Thats your crutch not ours. An absence of god or jesus doesn't equate to an absence of right or wrong. The correlation is quite possibly the worst stretch of reality even penned.To state that an absence of belief equates to an absence of human value might possibly be the most idiotic though process I've ever seen.

Your whole fucking argument is baseless. God or not killing your child is wrong. Now I know you might need a god to tell you so but I don't. My common sense and decency does.

[Richard Cranium]

Reading over this again. Has to be one of the dumbest things ever written. The whole point of being atheist is that we don't need a god, higher power or almighty hand to dictate whats good or evil. Thats your crutch not ours. An absence of god or jesus doesn't equate to an absence of right or wrong. The correlation is quite possibly the worst stretch of reality even penned.To state that an absence of belief equates to an absence of human value might possibly be the most idiotic though process I've ever seen.

Your whole fucking argument is baseless. God or not killing your child is wrong. Now I know you might need a god to tell you so but I don't. My common sense and decency does.

So if you don't need a God then what business is it of yours for those who do? We know you don't believe so shut up.

[mavs>spurs2]

Everyone who participates in these weekly shit throwing contests is even dumber than the mother who killed her son. I mean seriously, it's not like these debates are ever constructive or go anywhere, it's just the same people slinging the same insults and no one ever changes anyone elses opinion..

[clambake]

she said he's going to heaven and she's going to hell.

a chambered round from god followed by a chambered round from satan.

[BacktoBasics]

So if you don't need a God then what business is it of yours for those who do? We know you don't believe so shut up.
Its my business because this a message board that has afforded me the luxury of voicing my opinion. An opinion that is pertinent to the thread considering this fucking loon pulled the heaven/hell card as an excuse to off her innocent child before doing us all the favor of killing herself. Its a fucking forum for discussion. Do you see me bringing up the godtalk in music threads. Answer: No. I bring it up in its appropriate location. I'm soooo fucking sorry you don't want to hear it. I'm soooo fucking sorry that a public discussion forum isn'y playing out on your terms.

So long as god is preached on this forum I will preach against it. I'll shut up when an admin or mod bans my IP. Until then I get to discuss as much shit on here as I want.

[peewee's lovechild]

Christians are some crazy mofos.

[BacktoBasics]

Everyone who participates in these weekly shit throwing contests is even dumber than the mother who killed her son. I mean seriously, it's not like these debates are ever constructive or go anywhere, it's just the same people slinging the same insults and no one ever changes anyone elses opinion..
I have a lot of down time at work. This fills an entertainment void during my day.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Shit like this happens when you fill peoples' heads full of stupid ideas like the afterlife. She clearly thought she was doing something good for her son, and if you believe in heaven and the imaginary friend in the sky, wouldn't you agree he's in a better place too?

Yeah, only religious people commit murder/suicides. Good point.

[BacktoBasics]

Christians are some crazy mofos.shut up....you just shut up right now.

[BacktoBasics]

Yeah, only religious people commit murder/suicides. Good point.Can you underline the part where he said only religious people commit murder/suicides? Couldn't find it.

[Richard Cranium]

Its my business because this a message board that has afforded me the luxury of voicing my opinion. An opinion that is pertinent to the thread considering this fucking loon pulled the heaven/hell card as an excuse to off her innocent child before doing us all the favor of killing herself. Its a fucking forum for discussion. Do you see me bringing up the godtalk in music threads. Answer: No. I bring it up in its appropriate location. I'm soooo fucking sorry you don't want to hear it. I'm soooo fucking sorry that a public discussion forum isn'y playing out on your terms.

So long as god is preached on this forum I will preach against it. I'll shut up when an admin or mod bans my IP. Until then I get to discuss as much shit on here as I want.

No need to be sorry I was just voicing my opinion.

[peewee's lovechild]

shut up....you just shut up right now.

:lol

[Bigzax]

baseline was fucked up by his parents too most likely...so you know...grain of salt.

[Jekka]

If you don't believe in god or heaven and hell then there is essentially no good or evil...no right or wrong. So why are you guys acting like this was wrong?

It's no more wrong than killing a roach or an ant according to your system of beliefs.

That's a really big jump in logic. There's a difference between atheism and stoicism.

[clambake]

non-believers are fucked up by their parents.

[ALVAREZ6]

Now my question...why do atheists get all up in arms over things like this?

If you don't believe in god or heaven and hell then there is essentially no good or evil...no right or wrong. So why are you guys acting like this was wrong?

Umm...no. You don't need to be religious or believe in god in order to understand what is right and wrong. You can have morality without religion. This was wrong because this woman ended another person's life without his consent, it's not her decision. You can't deny someone life if they want to continue living, and the fact that it was her son makes it even more sickening. Again, you don't need to believe in any higher power to know right from wrong.

[BacktoBasics]

No need to be sorry I was just voicing my opinion.Apology accepted.

[Bigzax]

we're all fucked up by our parents...atheists just blame God for it...deep down you know...

[peewee's lovechild]

Fuck The Repartations . . . bring on The Rapture!!!!!!

[peewee's lovechild]

non-believers are fucked up by their parents.

Catholics are fucked up by their priests . . . well, if they're boys that is.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Can you underline the part where he said only religious people commit murder/suicides? Couldn't find it.


Shit like this happens when you fill peoples' heads full of stupid ideas like the afterlife. She clearly thought she was doing something good for her son, and if you believe in heaven and the imaginary friend in the sky, wouldn't you agree he's in a better place too?


It's my point, obviously, not his. BB is implying that faith in God and an afterlife resulted in this woman justifying killing her son before her suicide. I'm saying people take the murder/suicide route all the time, regardless of their beliefs.

Blaming a crazy woman's actions on her screwed up belief system is, well, crazy.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Catholics are fucked up by their priests . . . well, if they're boys that is.

The voice of experience.

[clambake]

i just heard that i blame god for everything, and all parents fuck up their kids.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm Catholic and proud of it. Yeah, that's right. Carry on.

[Richard Cranium]

Apology accepted.

:toast

[peewee's lovechild]

If you don't believe in god or heaven and hell then there is essentially no good or evil...no right or wrong.

What the shit?

Buddhists don't believe in Heaven or Hell and yet they have a firm grasp between good/evil, right/wrong.

Jews don't believe in Hell, or going to Heaven for that matter, and they also have an understanding of good/evil, right/wrong.

It's pretty assinine for Christians to believe that the whole world views things according to thier beliefs.

[Blake]

It's no more wrong than killing a roach or an ant according to your system of beliefs.


There in no law against killing a roach or an ant. There is a law against killing another person.

There is very little logic behind your post.

[peewee's lovechild]

The voice of experience.

I'm not Catholic.

So, you fail.

[Bigzax]

I'm not Catholic.

So, you fail.


but have you been fucked by a priest?

[JoeChalupa]

Good Friday rocks baby!!!!

[peewee's lovechild]

but have you been fucked by a priest?

Nope, I'm not Catholic.

[peewee's lovechild]

Good Friday rocks baby!!!!

It would rock if I could get the day off.

Otherwise, it's just like any other Friday.

[peewee's lovechild]

Friday the 13th is better than Good Friday.

[Blake]

Everyone who participates in these weekly shit throwing contests is even dumber than the mother who killed her son.

dumber than the mother who killed her son? really?

are they dumber than the ones that read every page of these sh1t throwing contests and feel the need to comment about the dumb participants?

4>0

spurs>mavs

[BacktoBasics]

Blaming a crazy woman's actions on her screwed up belief system is, well, crazy.Not if she specifically expressed that her actions were a result of her beliefs. Which she did. Had this women not played the heaven/hell card then you point is 100% accurate. To expect us to just overlook her statements seems pretty irresponsible.

[baseline bum]

Not if she specifically expressed that her actions were a result of her beliefs. Which she did. Had this women not played the heaven/hell card then you point is 100% accurate. To expect us to just overlook her statements seems pretty irresponsible.

SHHHH.... you're always supposed to tiptoe around the elephant sitting in the room.

[Happy Devil]

These threads make me happy. I'll be seeing many of you soon enough. :lol

[whottt]

Reading over this again. Has to be one of the dumbest things ever written. The whole point of being atheist is that we don't need a god, higher power or almighty hand to dictate whats good or evil. Thats your crutch not ours.

Oh really? And suppose you meet an atheist with a differing view? What makes your POV more right or decent than his?

Amazing the way you generalize all atheists as having the same sense of right and wrong and decency.

What's you next great takes, all mexicans are theives? All blacks lazy? All whites racist?






An absence of god or jesus doesn't equate to an absence of right or wrong.

Fine then just show me these great examples of codes of good and evil that arose in these godless civilizations...

You guys are so smart, it should be easy for you to do.



The correlation is quite possibly the worst stretch of reality even penned.To state that an absence of belief equates to an absence of human value might possibly be the most idiotic though process I've ever seen.

Oh really?

Well I'm an atheist and I don't agree with anything you just said and I have completely different view on the concepts of right and wrong than you do.

What makes your opinion right and mine wrong?




Your whole fucking argument is baseless. God or not killing your child is wrong.

Unless it' in the womb right? Then it's completely ok...out of sight out of mind and all that, right?

What's a matter, too squeamish to handle a little blood, pussy?



Now I know you might need a god to tell you so but I don't. My common sense and decency does.

Wow...who died and left you god of all right and wrong?


Maybe it's not that you don't believe in god...it's just that you are pissed off you didn't get the job.



I don't know if you realize it, but you are on standing on air. Not only that, but you aren't even standing.

[whottt]

He didn't bite me like the ant did. He didn't lay eggs in my wall and infest my house with a putrid stink. Had he done those things obviously as an atheist he should be killed.

He spawned in his mothers womb and leeched off her...then he caused her pain when he was birthed...

So by your rationale, he had wronged her and it was "right" for her to kill him....since without a doubt, he caused her more pain and took more from her, then any ant ever has done to you.


She just should have killed him before he had done things to her right? You know...like before he was born.

Right? Because that makes sense.

[The Meltdown]

Uh oh...........

[clambake]

why didn't god stop her?

[AmericanWoman]

why didn't god stop her?

He was too busy posting his opinion in this thread.

[whottt]

Umm...no. You don't need to be religious or believe in god in order to understand what is right and wrong. You can have morality without religion.

Ok...so those that don't agree with you are immoral?

Wow...how very Christian of you.




This was wrong because this woman ended another person's life without his consent, it's not her decision.

Yeah but...haven't you ever ended another creatures life without it's consent?

What makes humans any better than ants, or roaches?





You can't deny someone life if they want to continue living, and the fact that it was her son makes it even more sickening. Again, you don't need to believe in any higher power to know right from wrong.


So you are against abortion?

Are you against eating meat?

Pesticides?


All these things involve taking the lives of others without their consent.

These animals and insects feel pain and suffering just like we do...how come it's somehow ok to take their lives but not that of a human?

What makes us any better than insects or other animals?






Would you be happy if you just scrolled down a few words or commandments and we all live by them?

What of that didn't agre with you, would you judge us? Label us evil?

[whottt]

Sorry for stirring you guys up my dear atherists...I'll let you get back to your generalizations, stereotyping and judging of christians.

Carry on with the inquistions.

Hey...I think Angeluv just made a post...why don't you guys go attack her? I mean...you usually do.

You can get up on a high horse and talk shit about this christian woman killing her child...because ya'll would never do that.

Right?

[BacktoBasics]

:words:I'm not a religious nutjob. I don't feel that my standard of living is better than the next guys but I think things like stealing, murder, lying and so on are things that I wouldn't do. You can call them codes or laws if you like. Amazing how so many people seem to follow some very basic guidelines of decency within this civilization we'll call Earth. Most are capable and fully follow those principles of decency and feel no need to have a power above it all. I don't speak for all atheists but I do however have a reasonable sense of right and wrong. I also managed to have that reasonable sense without the help of a god to show me or a preacher to tell me.

You assume that with god you are. I assume that am regardless. I don't need to be defined by something magical. I don't need something bigger than me to do right.

Its the very crutch that religion is based on. The inability to do right without a higher power justifying it.....or demanding it.

[JoeChalupa]

I don't use religion as a "crutch" but that is something B2B always brings up.

[whottt]

There in no law against killing a roach or an ant. There is a law against killing another person.

Oh well shit...there was once a law that blacks and women couldn't vote...

I guess we knew where you stood back then, don't we?




There is very little logic behind your post.

Actually...it's toally logical, it's you that lacks logic.

Laws are overturned all the time. There are bad laws all the time...


I mean if somebody makes a law that says all jews need to be exterminated?

Are you goung to sign up and you know...enforce that law.

I mean by your logic, something being in law makes it right.

[BacktoBasics]

Sorry for stirring you guys up my dear atherists...I'll let you get back to your generalizations, stereotyping and judging of christians.

Carry on with the inquistions.

Hey...I think Angeluv just made a post...why don't you guys go attack her? I mean...you usually do.

You can get up on a high horse and talk shit about this christian woman killing her child...because ya'll would never do that.

Right?Right! I wouldn't kill my child. I'll look for her post right away. I have my spear to chuck. Hopefully you don't consider spear chucking to be a generization or stereotype.

Amazing how a women can kill someone and justify it by the words of heaven and hell but somehow we should just pretend she didn't say it. Basically you refuse to look at the situation in its own shoes and you yourself felt like generalizing her as crazy instead of recognizing the specifics of her body of work. Somewhere near by there's a pot with your name on it and its black.

[BacktoBasics]

He spawned in his mothers womb and leeched off her...then he caused her pain when he was birthed...

So by your rationale, he had wronged her and it was "right" for her to kill him....since without a doubt, he caused her more pain and took more from her, then any ant ever has done to you.


She just should have killed him before he had done things to her right? You know...like before he was born.

Right? Because that makes sense.Doesn't make sense. Perhaps you could reset this post to a previous date and see if that fixes it.

[AmericanWoman]

With B2B it is his way or the highway. He is never wrong and only his point of view is right.

[BacktoBasics]

With B2B it is his way or the highway. He is never wrong and only his point of view is right.Lots and lots of black pots in this thread. Don't worry though I hear wearing all black hides the fat.

[whottt]

I'm just heavily confused...I thought atheists totally supported a woman's right to take the life of her child.

[whottt]

Doesn't make sense. Perhaps you could reset this post to a previous date and see if that fixes it.

Makes total sense...it's just to bad for you that calling yourself an atheist doesn't erase the negative effects of 3 or 4 generations of inbreeding. The tendency towards stereotyping, generalization and judging remain...

Carry on teaching those child killing christians a lesson, torqey...

[peewee's lovechild]

I'm just heavily confused...I thought atheists totally supported a woman's right to take the life of her child.

Where did you hear that?

[whottt]

Right! I wouldn't kill my child. I'll look for her post right away. I have my spear to chuck. Hopefully you don't consider spear chucking to be a generization or stereotype.

Amazing how a women can kill someone and justify it by the words of heaven and hell but somehow we should just pretend she didn't say it. Basically you refuse to look at the situation in its own shoes and you yourself felt like generalizing her as crazy instead of recognizing the specifics of her body of work. Somewhere near by there's a pot with your name on it and its black.

Fine...so if I can find an atheist killing someone and using their atheists beliefs to justify it, will you then ad-hoc judge sterotype all atheists and their belief system the same way you are now doing with Christians?

[DarkReign]

“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”

-Arthur C. Clarke

[clambake]

we should just ignore anything negative when it involves religion?

then, i guess we should ignore islamic attacks of having religious meaning.

[clambake]

“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”

-Arthur C. Clarke

huge :tu

[baseline bum]

we should just ignore anything negative when it involves religion?

then, i guess we should ignore islamic attacks of having religious meaning.

Because Islam is really a religion about peace, just like Christianity and Judaism.

[whottt]

Where did you hear that?

From b2b...all atheists are the same and share the same sense of right and wrong. Since christians are attacked by the same atheists on this board all the time for their pro-life belief(otherwise known as an aversion to killing their child) all atheists must be in favor a woman' right to kill her child.

Please don't tell me your going to contradict b2b's earlier statement...you know, that all atheists share the same sense of right and wrong and therefore god isn't needed.

I mean because my entire point is what makes one man's opinion of morality and decency, of right and wrong, better than anothers?

Excuse me, one atheists opinion of right and wrong, because Christians are always wrong, right? I mean that's why ya'll attack them, persecute them and stereotype them the way you do?

Because they aren't openminded and tolerant like ya'll are?

[JoeChalupa]

I can handle all the negative talk about religion as I've been doing that all my life. I've been bashed for being Catholic by the best and I'm still standing and haven't changed and never will.
Perhaps B2B uses his children as a crutch sometimes or his family or something else. Maybe not?
I don't know and I really don't care.

But these weekly debates are interesting to read and quite entertaining.

[JoeChalupa]

“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”

-Arthur C. Clarke

Oh, hell then that is the end of this debate....right there!! :lmao

[BacktoBasics]

I'm just heavily confused...I thought atheists totally supported a woman's right to take the life of her child.Well you're wrong.

[baseline bum]

“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”

-Arthur C. Clarke

I love the way Dawkins absolutely murdered the idea that our morals are derived from religion. Off the top of my head, his argument was along the lines of:

1) Assume our sense of right and wrong comes from the bible.
2) The bible tells believers all kinds of things like one should stone disobedient children and kill those who pray to a different god.
3) No one in his right mind believes he should kill someone else just because the other person is a member of a rival religion. No one in his right mind thinks he should kill his own kids.
4) Therefore, people are picking and choosing what is moral from the bible.
5) Therefore, people have to get their ideas of right and wrong from somewhere else, or they would not be able to reason that some ideas in the bible are horrifying.

[BacktoBasics]

Fine...so if I can find an atheist killing someone and using their atheists beliefs to justify it, will you then ad-hoc judge sterotype all atheists and their belief system the same way you are now doing with Christians?
The mistake your making is this is your generalization not mine. Or any of ours. We made statements about the specific situation and how it pertained to her actions....not the actions of all nutjobs. We made the correlation of her statements and insanity and the ramifications for it all. I never said that all thumpers are killers or vice versa. You assumed we did when we didn't. We simply pointed out that in this specific situation it played a role. Sorry you can't come to terms with what actually happened.

[clambake]

Einstein said it's an adult fairytale, but what does he know.

[whottt]

b2b is trapped in the same generalizing, stereotyping, intolerant and bigoted judgemental frame of mind that pretty much all assholes in history that have perpetrated the most genocidal acts, have been trapped in...the religons, and other causes change, the stupidity does not.


I see the same group of hyporcrtites piling on christians all the time on this forum, intolerant of their religion, judging them, attempting to impose their belief system upon someone else...

And what makes it a fucking joke is that they think that because they don't call themselves christians, they are the tolerant and openminded ones...



You are always going to have stupid...that is the point. It was a point hammered home on multiple levels, the first time someone tied this woman's actions to her religion and made a generalized statement.

[JoeChalupa]

Einstein said it's an adult fairytale, but what does he know.

Not what I know and believe. :lol

[peewee's lovechild]

“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”

-Arthur C. Clarke

Nice.

[whottt]

The mistake your making is this is your generalization not mine. Or any of ours. We made statements about the specific situation and how it pertained to her actions....not the actions of all nutjobs. We made the correlation of her statements and insanity and the ramifications for it all. I never said that all thumpers are killers or vice versa. You assumed we did when we didn't. We simply pointed out that in this specific situation it played a role. Sorry you can't come to terms with what actually happened.

First response in this thread:


Must have been god's heaven and hell plan. Executed to perfection. Thank you baby jesus for your guidance.

Let me guess...it's totally ok for atheists to lie?

[baseline bum]

In other words, tiptoe around religion and never criticize it.

[peewee's lovechild]

Not what I know and believe. :lol

You know and believe that it's wrong to fornicate and yet you traveled the world getting all that poon and you've even bragged about how you've boned thousands of chicks.

Shit, on another thread your advice to one of our posters was to bang the chick and get it over with.

Your religion is very convenient.

[JoeChalupa]

In other words, tiptoe around religion and never criticize it.

No need to tiptoe....bring it on!!!!!

[whottt]

In other words, tiptoe around religion and never criticize it.

Criticize, pileon, stereotype and judge alll you want...but you will not operate under the frame of mind that you are in any way liberal or tolerant of those with differing views if I have anything to say about it.

You're just a different side of the same coin...and on this particular forum, at this particular moment in time...you guys are the active ones. Kicking your own ass...everytime you put finger to keyboard.

[JoeChalupa]

You know and believe that it's wrong to fornicate and yet you traveled the world getting all that poon and you've even bragged about how you've boned thousands of chicks.

Shit, on another thread your advice to one of our posters was to bang the chick and get it over with.

Your religion is very convenient.

Here we go again. :lmao Did I EVER say I was perfect? NO!!!

Now.........MOVE ON!!!!

[baseline bum]

Criticize, pileon, stereotype and judge alll you want...but you will not operate under the frame of mind that you are in any way liberal or tolerant of those with differing views if I have anything to say about it.

You're just a different side of the same coin...and on this particular forum, at this particular moment in time...you guys are the active ones. Kicking your own ass...everytime you put finger to keyboard.

Did she or did she not think she was doing something good for her son because of her religious beliefs?

[JoeChalupa]

You know and believe that it's wrong to fornicate and yet you traveled the world getting all that poon and you've even bragged about how you've boned thousands of chicks.

Shit, on another thread your advice to one of our posters was to bang the chick and get it over with.

Your religion is very convenient.

And yes, it is MY religion, not yours. Having none is very convenient for you.

[Blake]

Oh well shit...there was once a law that blacks and women couldn't vote...

I guess we knew where you stood back then, don't we?



I wasn't alive when blacks and women couldn't vote.

There's a reason that they are allowed to vote today.

There's also a reason why killing another person is still, and will pretty much always be, outlawed.



Actually...it's toally logical, it's you that lacks logic.

Laws are overturned all the time. There are bad laws all the time...

I mean if somebody makes a law that says all jews need to be exterminated?

Are you goung to sign up and you know...enforce that law.

I mean by your logic, something being in law makes it right.

so you are saying that atheistic societies should overturn any law that forbids killing another person.

No, I'm gonna say again it's you that lacks any logic.

[BacktoBasics]

First response in this thread:



Let me guess...it's totally ok for atheists to lie?
I see where you might need some additional training in "dripping with sarcasm 101".

[Blake]

I'm just heavily confused...I thought atheists totally supported a woman's right to take the life of her child.

no, that's just you criticizing, piling on and stereotyping

[BacktoBasics]

Did she or did she not think she was doing something good for her son because of her religious beliefs?Don't you fucking dare point out specifics in a thread about generalizations.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao carry on gentlemen...

http://www.peoriadefense.com/photo_host/BuildingaBetterCorn.PopcornThatis_C73D/popcorn.jpg

[Bigzax]

all my generalizations are just sarcastic too...:lol

[whottt]

I wasn't alive when blacks and women couldn't vote.

There's a reason that they are allowed to vote today.

Yes, because they realized that calling something a law doesn't make it right and fought against it. Which is something you would have never done..based on your rationalization of right and wrong. Which goes completely against the grain of your argument that something being in law determines it's rightness or wrongness.




There's also a reason why killing another person is still, and will pretty much always be, outlawed.


Are you kidding? There's legalized killing all the time in this country.




so you are saying that atheistic societies should overturn any law that forbids killing another person.

There's no such thing as an atheistic society....they only crop up under the umbrella of an organized society(almost always originally organized under some form of religious code).




No, I'm gonna say again it's you that lacks any logic.

I don't lack logic...I'm not the one that rationalized something being in law as right...and then contradicted myself upon the first sentence someone uttered that challenged that ignorant POV...

That would be you.

[peewee's lovechild]

Having none is very convenient for you.

No, it's just logical.

[BacktoBasics]

I'm going to take a moment and point out some things that people think are stereotypes and generalization but are in fact founded and accurate. Is it not a legitimate point when it in fact turns out to be accurate. Ponder this please.

Mexicans like mexican food.
Blacks smell like fritos.
Chinese people eat noodles.
Pretty people like pretty people.
Gay men enjoy things in their assholes.
Ugly people typically have bad credit.
Fat people typically have bad credit.
Guns kill people not people with guns.
Obama likes fried chicken.
Aunt Jemimah hated cooking.
Fat girls shouldn't be picky.
American women basketball players shouldn't throw tantrums and play for other countries.

[Spock]

No, it's just logical.

Only to sooth your own non-beliefs. Which is logical.

[peewee's lovechild]

Fat girls shouldn't be picky.


:lmao

[whottt]

no, that's just you criticizing, piling on and stereotyping

Well #1, no it's not...b2b said there's no need of god or that sense of right and wrong because all atheists share the same sense of right and wrong...his generalization, not mine. According to him atheists wouldn't have differing views of right and wrong...they all inherently know right and wrong, it's because they are all intelligent enough to call themselves atheists.

Surely you aren't saying you disagree with him? If so you prove him wrong and me right...no matter what you say about me and my arguments.

If you are too stupid to go back and find the post where he did it...well that's unfortunate for you, I'd find it for you but frankly I don't think it's worth that sort of effort since you are stupid and likely to be unconvinced by my efforts.


And I never said I wasn't generalizing, criticizing and judging...ih fact, it would be pretty stupid to think I have ever attempted to claim that for myself or presented myself that way.

Read more. Post less.

[Aunt Jemima]

I'm going to take a moment and point out some things that people think are stereotypes and generalization but are in fact founded and accurate. Is it not a legitimate point when it in fact turns out to be accurate. Ponder this please.

Mexicans like mexican food.
Blacks smell like fritos.
Chinese people eat noodles.
Pretty people like pretty people.
Gay men enjoy things in their assholes.
Ugly people typically have bad credit.
Fat people typically have bad credit.
Guns kill people not people with guns.
Obama likes fried chicken.
Aunt Jemimah hated cooking.
Fat girls shouldn't be picky.
American women basketball players shouldn't throw tantrums and play for other countries.

My favorite place is in the kitchen. :flipoff

[FaithInOne]

The reason people like this kill their kids before they kill themselves is because they themselves feel death is a better alternative to life...I mean that's why they're suicidal and considering taking their own lives in the first place...because they've convinced themselves death is better. Probably other secondary thoughts like saving their loved ones from going through the suffering of dealing with the trauma of a suicide, or leaving their fate to complete strangers. Add in religious elements of eternal life and peace and a in some cases the murderer might even think they are doing their loved ones a favor since they are giving them a sinless death and sending them to heaven.


There is a logic behind it.

In this case that woman clearly loved her son. She smoked his ass in one of the most painless ways possible. That kid never knew what hit him and I doubt he felt any pain. She otoh felt she was basically condemning herself to hell with her actions but also having to go through the traumatic experience of shooting herself in the head, but was willing to do that to save her son the suffering he would face in the end of the world. This was much more traumatic for her than it was for him.


I'm not defending her actions...but there was a clear line of logic to what she did.


Now my question...why do atheists get all up in arms over things like this?

If you don't believe in god or heaven and hell then there is essentially no good or evil...no right or wrong. So why are you guys acting like this was wrong?

It's no more wrong than killing a roach or an ant according to your system of beliefs.

There's no old man passing judgement on this and sending people to heaven or hell over it...it's just a couple more dead animals. Really this woman's actions have no meaning beyond that of any one who takes a life, insect, animal or otherwise. And life...and death...go on.

So why the soapbox stance and outrage? It's just some biological organisms ceasing to function. Meaningless in the grand scheme of things...much like life and death themself.

I mean you've killed an ant because it was annoying you before, right? Same thing, right? Ant probably felt more pain than this kid did.

pwnage.

[BacktoBasics]

Well #1, no it's not...b2b said there's no need of god or that sense of right and wrong because all atheists share the same sense of right and wrong....Where did I say all atheists share the same sense of right and wrong?

My point originally was that each human being religious or not can find and utilize a rational sense of right and wrong without the jesus jibberish behind it.

[Fat boy]

Fat people typically have bad credit.


I could buy your ass and move you into a tent. :rolleyes

[BacktoBasics]

pwnage.:rolleyes.

[whottt]

Did she or did she not think she was doing something good for her son because of her religious beliefs?

She thought her son would go somewhere good...she didn't think she was doing a good act, that's why she said she was going to go to hell for it.

So if the idea of eternal torment isn't enough to keep someone from doing something like this...what in the world makes you think the idea of eternal oblivion and nothingess will fare better? In all likelyhood, it will fare much worse at preventing these sorts of things.

Stupidity is a part of the human condition...unfortunately, try not to compound the problem by making sweeping generalizations and citing superficial details as the cause.

I know you're still pissed your puppy never came back...but at some point you have to get over it.

[FaithInOne]

backtobasics, what is behind right and wrong if there is no god. Honest question I have been wondering myself.

Is it some byproduct of the world that had to be set in place in order for lifeforms to function in the long-term?

[AmericanWoman]

backtobasics, what is behind right and wrong if there is no god. Honest question I have been wondering myself.

Is it some byproduct of the world that had to be set in place in order for lifeforms to function in the long-term?

He is.

[BacktoBasics]

She thought her son would go somewhere good...she didn't think she was doing a good act, that's why she said she was going to go to hell for it.

So if the idea of eternal torment isn't enough to keep someone from doing something like this...what in the world makes you think the idea of eternal oblivion and nothingess will fare better? In all likelyhood, it will fare much worse at preventing these sorts of things.Eternal oblivion and nothingness has fared quite well for many of us. As far as I'm concerned it liberated me. If she knew there was no heaven would she have still killed him? If there was no better place for him to go and he was better off where he's at would it have still gone down this way?

[BacktoBasics]

He is.Did you even read what her wrote?

[exstatic]

we're all fucked up by our parents...atheists just blame God for it...deep down you know...

Would that be the same god they don't believe in?

[Bigzax]

sliding scale. "rational" to one is "irrational" to another.

[BacktoBasics]

Is it some byproduct of the world that had to be set in place in order for lifeforms to function in the long-term?I don't have the energy to pick it apart but in a nutshell yeah.

[peewee's lovechild]

backtobasics, what is behind right and wrong if there is no god. Honest question I have been wondering myself.

Is it some byproduct of the world that had to be set in place in order for lifeforms to function in the long-term?

Chingado, I posed this on a previous post:

Buddhists don't believe in a "god" and yet they know right from wrong.

Taoists and Confucionists(sp?) fall into the same category.

You fail to realize that the entire world is not christian. You can gain an understanding of right and wrong, good and evil, without having to base it on any particular "god".

[JoeChalupa]

For some reason I'm in the mood for some devil's food cake.

[FaithInOne]

Going on the idea that there is nothingness after life, why should a human's free will lead them to the "right" path over the "wrong" if they knew they could get away with it under Man's Laws.

If there is no grand reward, or progress in the next life, why should some choose to be honest when they see others getting away in life taking the bad path.

[JoeChalupa]

Or maybe some carne del diablo sammiches.

[FaithInOne]

Chingado, I posed this on a previous post:

Buddhists don't believe in a "god" and yet they know right from wrong.

Taoists and Confucionists(sp?) fall into the same category.

You fail to realize that the entire world is not christian. You can gain an understanding of right and wrong, good and evil, without having to base it on any particular "god".

lol dude, I belong to no religion and have read numerous times the teachings of lao tze. They also believe there is a purpose to life, man does have meaning, and man will be rewarded should he make the right choices along his path of spiritual progression.

I respect the beliefs of those you listed out of any other religious/spiritual beliefs in this world.

[JoeChalupa]

Nah, I'll have some Angel Food cake instead.

[JoeChalupa]

Monk is a funny show.

[Bigzax]

Would that be the same god they don't believe in?


they do. but don't admit it.

when on their knees one day, darkest of times, when nothing is in their control...the words will be spoken.

"why God, why?" or "please God, please!"

take it to the bank my friend. safest bet you can make.

[BacktoBasics]

Going on the idea that there is nothingness after life, why should a human's free will lead them to the "right" path over the "wrong" if they knew they could get away with it under Man's Laws.

If there is no grand reward, or progress in the next life, why should some choose to be honest when they see others getting away in life taking the bad path.
The beauty of choice. People seemingly can't do right for themselves without some kind of purpose or meaning. Its the fallacy of the world around us.

I believe in nothingness. I don't believe in the after life or any grand reward. Yet I manage to find comfort and satisfaction in doing good by my own free will. Free of purpose or reason.

[exstatic]

“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”

-Arthur C. Clarke


I love the way Dawkins absolutely murdered the idea that our morals are derived from religion. Off the top of my head, his argument was along the lines of:

1) Assume our sense of right and wrong comes from the bible.
2) The bible tells believers all kinds of things like one should stone disobedient children and kill those who pray to a different god.
3) No one in his right mind believes he should kill someone else just because the other person is a member of a rival religion. No one in his right mind thinks he should kill his own kids.
4) Therefore, people are picking and choosing what is moral from the bible.
5) Therefore, people have to get their ideas of right and wrong from somewhere else, or they would not be able to reason that some ideas in the bible are horrifying.

That.

[BacktoBasics]

Hopefully whottt didn't eject before reading this.


She thought her son would go somewhere good...she didn't think she was doing a good act, that's why she said she was going to go to hell for it.

So if the idea of eternal torment isn't enough to keep someone from doing something like this...what in the world makes you think the idea of eternal oblivion and nothingess will fare better? In all likelyhood, it will fare much worse at preventing these sorts of things.Eternal oblivion and nothingness has fared quite well for many of us. As far as I'm concerned it liberated me. If she knew there was no heaven would she have still killed him? If there was no better place for him to go and he was better off where he's at would it have still gone down this way?

[Jesus]

The beauty of choice. People seemingly can't do right for themselves without some kind of purpose or meaning. Its the fallacy of the world around us.

I believe in nothingness. I don't believe in the after life or any grand reward. Yet I manage to find comfort and satisfaction in doing good by my own free will. Free of purpose or reason.

:lmao Oh what a rude awakening lies ahead of you. Wait until you see what I will do with my own free will. You will know the purpose AND the reason.

[peewee's lovechild]

lol dude, I belong to no religion and have read numerous times the teachings of lao tze. They also believe there is a purpose to life, man does have meaning, and man will be rewarded should he make the right chooses along his path of spiritual progression.

I respect the beliefs of those you listed out of any other religious/spiritual beliefs in this world.

If you've read and understood anything as it pertains to Taoism, Confucionism, or Buddhism, then you would understand that they are all philosophies of life.

Their main purpose is to ensure that you've lived a good and moral life.

Spirituality to the people who follow these teaching means a completely different thing than does the christian spirituality.

[FaithInOne]

Throw out all of the religious babble arguments, and this shit is just simply fun to think about and talk with others :toast

[exstatic]

they do. but don't admit it.

when on their knees one day, darkest of times, when nothing is in their control...the words will be spoken.

"why God, why?" or "please God, please!"

take it to the bank my friend. safest bet you can make.

I think I'll try Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy first. They've actually shown me tangible, explainable, repeatable results. I could always take what the Tooth Fairy gave me to the bank.

[BacktoBasics]

:lmao Oh what a rude awakening lies ahead of you. Wait until you see what I will do with my own free will. You will know the purpose AND the reason.
Don't be jealous that I don't worship you. Many of your "standards and codes" of living mirror my own belief structure. I don't need to kiss your ass to be a good guy.

[Bigzax]

Their main purpose is to ensure that you've lived a good and moral life.

Spirituality to the people who follow these teaching means a completely different thing than does the christian spirituality.


gnostic christians beg to differ.

[FaithInOne]

If you've read and understood anything as it pertains to Taoism, Confucionism, or Buddhism, then you would understand that they are all philosophies of life.

Their main purpose is to ensure that you've lived a good and moral life.

Spirituality to the people who follow these teaching means a completely different thing than does the christian spirituality.

I guess I am just trying to figure out what is behind the great design of that way of thinking. Living a "good life" leads to less stress and a greater sense of accomplishment in the long run, but why is that.

I think there has got to be something behind the idea that those philosophies on life, tap deep into the design in our brains/thinking that would otherwise not be exercised with the common functions in everyday life.

[Richard Cranium]

If you've read and understood anything as it pertains to Taoism, Confucionism, or Buddhism, then you would understand that they are all philosophies of life.

Their main purpose is to ensure that you've lived a good and moral life.

Spirituality to the people who follow these teaching means a completely different thing than does the christian spirituality.

http://www.tigerfriends.com/theanimals/others/ace2-multi.jpg

[Bigzax]

I think I'll try Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy first. They've actually shown me tangible, explainable, repeatable results. I could always take what the Tooth Fairy gave me to the bank.


has love lost has caused your shield to be raised?

[BacktoBasics]

I guess I am just trying to figure out what is behind the great design of that way of thinking. Living a "good life" leads to less stress and a greater sense of accomplishment in the long run, but why is that.

I think there has got to be something behind the idea that those philosophies on life, tap deep into the design in our brains/thinking that would otherwise not be exercised with the common functions in everyday life.This thread is in serious need of some bud.

[peewee's lovechild]

I guess I am just trying to figure out what is behind the great design of that way of thinking. Living a "good life" leads to less stress and a greater sense of accomplishment in the long run, but why is that.

I think there has got to be something behind the idea that those philosophies on life, tap deep into the design in our brains/thinking that would otherwise not be exercised with the common functions in everyday life.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

My original response to you was that these philosophies don't follow a "god", yet they know what right/wrong, evil/good is.

You have failed to explain otherwise.

[JoeChalupa]

This thread is in serious need of some bud.

I won't argue with that.

[ALVAREZ6]

Ok...so those that don't agree with you are immoral?

Wow...how very Christian of you.


What??? How can you infer that from what I said??

I said nothing about people that don't agree with me...I simply said that you don't need religion to have morals and a heart, to know what's right and wrong. This doesn't imply that people who are religious (those that disagree with me) are immoral.

[peewee's lovechild]

This thread is in serious need of some bud.

He's ahead of us.

[FaithInOne]

Damn, I don't even know what I am trying to say. I can't even think of the right question to ask LOL

I don't think of God as some old man in the sky, but more as something that has designed the order of the world. Maybe the design itself.

[exstatic]

has love lost has caused your shield to be raised?
I have no shield, nor any need for one. You religiots love to hide behind yours, though.

[peewee's lovechild]

I won't argue with that.

:lol

Finally, some common ground.

[Dr. Gonzo]

If you've read and understood anything as it pertains to Taoism, Confucionism, or Buddhism, then you would understand that they are all philosophies of life.

Their main purpose is to ensure that you've lived a good and moral life.

Spirituality to the people who follow these teaching means a completely different thing than does the christian spirituality.

That is the main purpose of Christianity as well.

[Blake]

Well #1, no it's not...b2b said there's no need of god or that sense of right and wrong because all atheists share the same sense of right and wrong...his generalization, not mine. According to him atheists wouldn't have differing views of right and wrong...they all inherently know right and wrong, it's because they are all intelligent enough to call themselves atheists.

I think I've seen enough of B2B's posts to know he wouldn't be stupid enough to say "all atheists share the same sense of right and wrong."


Surely you aren't saying you disagree with him? If so you prove him wrong and me right...no matter what you say about me and my arguments.

I disagree with you.


If you are too stupid to go back and find the post where he did it...well that's unfortunate for you, I'd find it for you but frankly I don't think it's worth that sort of effort since you are stupid and likely to be unconvinced by my efforts.

You call me stupid because I'm not going to do your quote work for you?

How unfortunate for you.


And I never said I wasn't generalizing, criticizing and judging...ih fact, it would be pretty stupid to think I have ever attempted to claim that for myself or presented myself that way.

great. Then we agree you were generalizing, criticizing and judging.


Read more. Post less.

Read more. Lie less.

[JoeChalupa]

That is the main purpose of Christianity as well.

I concur. But I'm too busy fornicating.

[Bigzax]

I have no shield, nor any need for one. You religiots love to hide behind yours, though.



shield hell, I've leapt from the lion's head into oblivion...you?

[BacktoBasics]

Damn, I don't even know what I am trying to say. I can't even think of the right question to ask LOL
People have to have purpose. The human mind especially the American human mind is inherently selfish. There has to be a reward or reason to do right. Its pathetic to see an entire society hellbent on only doing right because there's a consequence if you don't.

[Bigzax]

I think I've seen enough of B2B's posts to know he wouldn't be stupid enough to say "all atheists share the same sense of right and wrong."


but he did and they do. their own.

[JoeChalupa]

I don't hide behind any shield. I'm comfortable with my religion. Or should I say "convenient".

[Dr. Gonzo]

People have to have purpose. The human mind especially the American human mind is inherently selfish. There has to be a reward or reason to do right. Its pathetic to see an entire society hellbent on only doing right because there's a consequence if you don't.

Civilization is based on this. That's why there are laws. They create consequences for doing wrong. It's not a religious thing.

[BacktoBasics]

I'm still on this



She thought her son would go somewhere good...she didn't think she was doing a good act, that's why she said she was going to go to hell for it.

So if the idea of eternal torment isn't enough to keep someone from doing something like this...what in the world makes you think the idea of eternal oblivion and nothingess will fare better? In all likelyhood, it will fare much worse at preventing these sorts of things.Eternal oblivion and nothingness has fared quite well for many of us. As far as I'm concerned it liberated me. If she knew there was no heaven would she have still killed him? If there was no better place for him to go and he was better off where he's at would it have still gone down this way?

[peewee's lovechild]

That is the main purpose of Christianity as well.

No it's not.

The main purpose of christianity is to subject yourself to "god", his son, and his spirit all in the name of making him the one and true god.

Read a bible.

[BacktoBasics]

Civilization is based on this. That's why there are laws. They create consequences for doing wrong. It's not a religious thing.According to whottt no such civilizations have accomplished this without religion.

[peewee's lovechild]

I concur. But I'm too busy fornicating.

It's sad that you don't understand your own religion. But, damn, you'll defend it.

[exstatic]

That is the main purpose of Christianity as well.
Funny how it keeps getting lost in one Crusade or another...

shield hell, I've leapt from the lion's head into oblivion...you?

Oblivion? Isn't that the Athiest's ending point? Shouldn't you have leapt into Heaven?

[FaithInOne]

The thing is, I've always thought these people who committed suicide had to have some balls to carry it out.

Man has planted this seed in most people's minds that if you fuck up worse enough in life, kill yourself for example, you will go to hell; a place of fire and all of that....for eternity. When you're about to pull that trigger, you have to justify that there is maybe a 1% chance Hell truly exists and you are about to fuck yourself with crazy pain for the rest of forever.

Then there is the idea that once you kill yousrelf, there is nothingness. That in itself, for me, is just as scary. You have to be pretty damn depressed or crazy to think your life is so far gone that there is not even that 1% chance you could turn your life around and wait a couple more decades until you reach that nothingness. Because if there really is that nothingness, and we are no more than evolved ants populating the environment around us, at least live for a couple decades to see what life is like since it's your only experience you will consciously know.

[peewee's lovechild]

Funny how it keeps getting lost in one Crusade or another...

Another one who doesn't understand what he's defending.

[Dr. Gonzo]

No it's not.

The main purpose of christianity is to subject yourself to "god", his son, and his spirit all in the name of making him the one and true god.

Read a bible.

The Bible shows Jesus and what he does in order for people that believe to follow his teachings of being a decent person and living a good, honest life.

The Old Testament God is pretty harsh and does have shades of subjecting oneself to God no matter what, but that's not Christianity.

[BacktoBasics]

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj28/elvishitler777/eject.jpg

Left to Right: This thread/Whottt

[whottt]

Eternal oblivion and nothingness has fared quite well for many of us. As far as I'm concerned it liberated me.


Yeah it's also liberated probably every suicide in history as well...Einstein.




If she knew there was no heaven would she have still killed him?

Well obviously she thought life sucked pretty badly or was about to...so yeah...she probably still would have.




If there was no better place for him to go and he was better off where he's at

Boy do you live in a sheltered world of fairytales...oblivion becomes a better alternative to life to just about everyone who lives long enough.

Why don't you step inside a nursing some or quadrapaleigic ward sometime...get a dose of reality.




would it have still gone down this way?

Probably sooner...she obviously thought life sucked badly or was about too...and that's a condition that belies any religious belief. It's often tied to out of whack brain chemistry and levels of seretonin, noripeniphrine and dopamine....

You intellectual atheist you.


Change the superficial detales of this incident, change the woman to a black man, change the son to a rape victim...

You're the guy going, "see what blacks do?"

It's exactly the same car, only the paint is different.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Fuck it.

That bitch was crazy. She would've found a reason to kill her kid either way.

[BacktoBasics]

The Bible shows Jesus and what he does in order for people that believe to follow his teachings of being a decent person and living a good, honest life.

The Old Testament God is pretty harsh and does have shades of subjecting oneself to God no matter what, but that's not Christianity.Please don't leave out the work of Joe Smith. Dude was dialed.

[ALVAREZ6]

Then there is the idea that once you kill yousrelf, there is nothingness. That in itself, for me, is just as scary. You have to be pretty damn depressed or crazy to think your life is so far gone that there is not even that 1% chance you could turn your life around and wait a couple more decades until you reach that nothingness.
I completely agree with this...eternal nothingness, whether you are conscious of it or not after you die, is a scary notion to me as a living being. I would almost rather have hell than what I truly believe in (no hell). I think a lot of people continue following certain religions to double down and secure a seat in heaven in case if a hell exists. It's sad that such a horrible thing like this can scare people into continuing certain practices, yet it's completely uncertain to whether it is the truth or not.

[peewee's lovechild]

The Bible shows Jesus and what he does in order for people that believe to follow his teachings of being a decent person and living a good, honest life.

The Old Testament God is pretty harsh and does have shades of subjecting oneself to God no matter what, but that's not Christianity.

You are confusing the teachings, or philosophy, of Jesus (Yeshua) with the doctrine of christianity.

There isn't a single christian religion that follows the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus.

[JoeChalupa]

It's sad that you don't understand your own religion. But, damn, you'll defend it.

I'm not defending it. I'm Catholic and if you don't like it so be it. I don't care if you are a non-believer and think religion is a joke. I understand my religion very clearly. YES, I'm a sinner. I never said I was the perfect Catholic and nobody is.
And you are not Catholic.

[Bigzax]

Funny how it keeps getting lost in one Crusade or another...


Oblivion? Isn't that the Athiest's ending point? Shouldn't you have leapt into Heaven?


i never said oblivion was the end...just the pathway.

[E20]

According to whottt no such civilizations have accomplished this without religion.

However, in most instances that I have read about early civilizations and the advancement ofcivilization, societies have derived their societies laws based on the predominant religon in the area that society lives in. I would have to do some research to find a society that did not, because I couldn't come up with one off the top of my head.

[BacktoBasics]

Yeah it's also liberated probably every suicide in history as well...Einstein.




Well obviously she thought life sucked pretty badly or was about to...so yeah...she probably still would have.



Boy do you live in a sheltered world of fairytales...oblivion becomes a better alternative to life to just about everyone who lives long enough.

Why don't you step inside a nursing some or quadrapaleigic ward sometime...get a dose of reality.




Probably sooner...she obviously thought life sucked badly or was about too...and that's a condition that belies any religious belief. It's often tied to out of whack brain chemistry and levels of seretonin, noripeniphrine and dopamine....

You intellectual atheist you.


Change the superficial detales of this incident, change the woman to a black man, change the son to a rape victim...

You're the guy going, "see what blacks do?"

It's exactly the same car, only the paint is different.:lmao it was worth the wait.

This fucking bitch killed her son because she said he was going to a better place. There's a chance in all her nutjobbery that she might not have done that had she not believed he would have in fact been going to a better place. I know its too much for you to ponder. I know you so desperately want religion removed from the story but its the reason she gave and no other. Sometimes you can put your fingers in your ears and hum to magically make things go away.


Why don't you step inside a nursing some or quadrapaleigic ward sometime...get a dose of reality. :sleep borrrrrring. How do those guys move the chess peices anyway. Sounds like work.

[ALVAREZ6]

I still don't get how we got into this debate on religion...we can all assume what we want about this crazy bitch's motives, but it's impossible for us to know. She was clearly a crazy bitch with serious problems and whatever came to her mind wouldn't make sense to us anyway.