Atheism on the rise in every single US state. [Archive] - Page 3

Phenomanul

05-02-2009, 10:02 AM

I wouldn't call it solid

He listed Galileo.... the poor man would have been put to a swift death by the Inquisition if he renounced the Church.

Vatican leaders don't lead the Church.... Christ does. Your reluctance to accept that doesn't change the fact that Galileo was indeed a follower of Christ...

Those clerical leaders were grotesquely wrong about a many things, including the Inquisition...

I'm sure if I go down that list, I can find other bullshit ones.

Knock yourself out... Maybe it's time you actually give Christian scientists their due... Instead of proliferating the lie that they were all athiests...

Let's not forget that Albert Einstein himself also became a Deist... even though he didn't believe in the Christian GOD of the Bible...

or, you could just post a list of realists/non-believers and that would take up the whole thread.

It's not about the numbers... It's about countering the notion that Science has always had a rift with GOD... when many of the pioneers of Science felt otherwise...

Like I said... you all are revising history because it doesn't suit your arguments...

Phenomanul

05-02-2009, 10:24 AM

FIRST POST

Genesis says the Light was created FIRST. It says he separated day from night on day 1.

But wait a second, day and night is only a product of the rotation of the earth. The Sun never stops shining.

So, if the Earth isn't formed yet until DAY 3, then when "God" created light (Sun isn't even created yet, so what light is Genesis referring to?), how could he possibly create day and night? The Sun, in space, never stops shining. "Days" are an illusion of earth's rotation.

then Genesis is proven to have a lack of understanding about the universe, in accordance with human knowledge at the time.

========================

========================

SECOND POST

Next we have................

"God" creates the Earth and puts VEGETATION on it on the third day...... but doesn't create the SUN until the FOURTH DAY!

Laugh out loud!

This creates huge problems :

1) Vegetation functions on photosynthesis. Need the sun to live. That's their energy source.

2) If you listen to the Bible, the Earth would now be OLDER than the Sun?

3) All the Stars in the sky are now younger than the Earth too!

Anyone care to take this on? This proves the Bible is already wrong in the first few chapters.

So.... you are countering the supernatural Biblical account by constraining it with naturalistic limitations? Good logic... I mean, should we assume that the GOD that created the universe is also bound by the rules He created to govern it??? That someone that defined the speed of light, is also constrained to operate within it's limits??? Not likely... GOD created the mass of the universe from nothing but the command of His voice... ooops... there goes "mass can neither be created or destroyed"...

Now... by no means am I saying you should believe the Genesis account... Believe what you want... I'm simply stating that your naturalistic arguments are inherently null, mismatched if you will, against a supernatural account of creation.

angel_luv

05-02-2009, 10:34 AM

So.... you are countering the supernatural Biblical account by constraining it with naturalistic limitations? Good logic... I mean, should we assume that the GOD that created the universe is also bound by the rules He created to govern it??? That someone that defined the speed of light, is also constrained to operate within it's limits??? Not likely... GOD created the mass of the universe from nothing but the command of His voice...

Now... by no means am I saying you should believe the Genesis account... Believe what you want... I'm simply stating that your naturalistic arguments are inherently null, mismatched if you will, against a supernatural account of creation.

Well said. Thank you.

Mike Litoris

05-02-2009, 10:38 AM

Reading through this, it looks like people are giving each other a real tongue lashing.

baseline bum

05-02-2009, 01:16 PM

My point of contention still stands...

As for your reproach of my comment.... I only paraphrased what Newton himself wrote on many occasions.

That's not at all what you said. Never in that final clause bound to the word "laws" did you express it as Newton's belief. I don't believe that's what you meant when that meaning you're now claiming could have easily and unambiguously been expressed by a simple addition of "he believed" before the word could.

It was Newton's belief in GOD that compeled him to seek out the ordered mechanisms and laws that could only be produced by His hand...

For all the grief you give people for having no proof of the non-existence of god, you shouldn't be making statements like the above that are little more than conjecture.

ALVAREZ6

05-02-2009, 04:12 PM

The truth is that many of the scientific pioneers that shaped our western civilization believed in GOD.
just like essentially the entire population of the world at that time

z0sa

05-02-2009, 06:26 PM

For all the grief you give people for having no proof of the non-existence of god, you shouldn't be making statements like the above that are little more than conjecture.

Do you really know much about Newton's other writings, or did you simply pass them off because they are theological in nature and you are an atheist?

I ask only because its fairly obvious to the informed that Newton's own claims of inspiration were almost always, God. Considering only the amount of material he wrote on theology should give you a good grasp on how important God was to him and in his interpretations.

are you an old man or is 106 years old in your profile just a joke?
did newton base all his research on his obvious theological impressions, or some "other" reasoning since making a clear inference from his religious works is what you consider conjecture?

E20

05-02-2009, 06:32 PM

I'm not sure where or who I heard this from, but I remember someone telling me that Netwon was crazy and that Calculus was his way of commuincating with God.

I lol'd.

Phenomanul

05-02-2009, 06:34 PM

That's not at all what you said. Never in that final clause bound to the word "laws" did you express it as Newton's belief. I don't believe that's what you meant when that meaning you're now claiming could have easily and unambiguously been expressed by a simple addition of "he believed" before the word could.

For all the grief you give people for having no proof of the non-existence of god, you shouldn't be making statements like the above that are little more than conjecture.

OK... OK... "that he believed"... contento?

It's not like I'm trying to be ambiguous... Newton believed that... and it propeled him to achieve what no one else could...

Suggesting then that his achievements had nothing to do with his theistic believes would be a downright lie... and a disservice to the Christian ideals that inspired his work.

Phenomanul

05-02-2009, 06:42 PM

just like essentially the entire population of the world at that time

So are you suggesting that Newton was incapable of experiencing GOD just because he happened to live hundreds of years ago???

Fact is, Newton genuinenly experienced GOD... and never looked back. He could have said, "nah.. belief in this entity is baloney, what's the big deal??" or whatever the common jargon was back then... but he didn't: he stood firmly by his beliefs.

ALVAREZ6

05-02-2009, 07:24 PM

So are you suggesting that Newton was incapable of experiencing GOD just because he happened to live hundreds of years ago???

No. I'm suggesting virtually everyone back then believed in god.

And I love how you say newton experienced god as a certainty....back to why I can't stand religious people because they are more than 100% confident that there god exists.

E20

05-02-2009, 07:36 PM

back to why I can't stand religious people because they are more than 100% confident that there god exists.

Well from my understanding that's a part of faith. If you don't have 100% full belief in God then you don't truly have faith. Why believe in something you're not 100% sure of?

MiamiHeat

05-02-2009, 08:31 PM

Still waiting.

1) How can the stars be YOUNGER than the Earth? This is false.

2) How can vegetation on land exist without the Sun?

3) How can the Earth be older than the Sun?

4) How can there be day and night when the Earth wasn't created yet?

and here's another one :

And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

What? Water, then sky, then water above the sky?

This is a primitive explanation for rain.

We know for a fact there is no large expanse of water above the sky. There is atmopshere (sky), then there is outer space.

MiamiHeat

05-02-2009, 08:58 PM

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning, God created the heaven and the EARTH.

How did you conclude that earth was not created first?

Because the Earth isn't created until day 3.

The earth is 'without form' until day 3.

So if the earth is not round, it cannot rotate. therefore, no days and nights.

I Love Me Some Me

05-02-2009, 09:19 PM

Because the Earth isn't created until day 3.

The earth is 'without form' until day 3.

So if the earth is not round, it cannot rotate. therefore, no days and nights.

No...it was created on day 1, and given form on day 3.

So only round things rotate? Get a Rubiks cube and spin it....tell me if it's rotating.

MiamiHeat

05-02-2009, 09:23 PM

No...it was created on day 1, and given form on day 3.

So only round things rotate? Get a Rubiks cube and spin it....tell me if it's rotating.

a cube is formed

the earth is 'without form'

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Formless.

By the way, the Bible refers to the Earth as having 'four corners'

Like most everyone else, they thought the Earth was flat.

I Love Me Some Me

05-02-2009, 09:26 PM

a cube is formed

the earth is 'without form'

Ok...first it couldn't rotate because it wasn't round, now it's because it's without form?

And why does something need form to rotate? The clouds in a tornado or hurricane are without form, but are certainly rotating.

MiamiHeat

05-02-2009, 09:28 PM

Ok...first it couldn't rotate because it wasn't round, now it's because it's without form?

And why does something need form to rotate? The clouds in a tornado or hurricane are without form, but are certainly rotating.

This is seriously one of the most horrible attempts I have ever seen in my life.

They wouldn't be hurricanes or tornado's if they didn't -form-.... oh boy.

I Love Me Some Me

05-02-2009, 09:33 PM

This is seriously one of the most horrible attempts I have ever seen in my life.

Then it should be easy for you.

Unless, of course, you want to move the target again...first the earth was the third day, then it was the first day but it wasn't round, then it didn't have to be round, it had to have form.

MiamiHeat

05-02-2009, 09:39 PM

.first the earth was the third day,

The Earth is not the Earth until it forms. Until then, it's something else. Otherwise, it's like you going around with a box of nails and lots of wood and claiming it's a house.

then it was the first day but it wasn't round

You, not me, YOU said it was the first day. I corrected you by telling you that the Earth was not formed yet.

then it didn't have to be round, it had to have form.

Hey, you said 'round things aren't the only things that rotate'

That would imply the Earth had another shape. But the Earth is -without form-... so how can something that doesn't exist yet, has no shape or form, rotate?

Someone please help I Love Me Some Me. He needs help very badly

I Love Me Some Me

05-02-2009, 09:50 PM

1. The Earth is not the Earth until it forms. Until then, it's something else. Otherwise, it's like you going around with a box of nails and lots of wood and claiming it's a house.

2. You, not me, YOU said it was the first day. I corrected you by telling you that the Earth was not formed yet.

3. Hey, you said 'round things aren't the only things that rotate'

That would imply the Earth had another shape. But the Earth is -without form-... so how can something that doesn't exist yet, has no shape or form, rotate?

4. Someone please help I Love Me Some Me. He needs help very badly

1. The earth is the earth when whoever created it calls it "earth"...which happened on day 1.

2. No, Genesis tells you the earth was created on the first day, in Chapter 1, verse 1.

3. So you're contention is that something must have shape and form to rotate?

4. Yes, I do.

MiamiHeat

05-02-2009, 09:55 PM

1. The earth is the earth when whoever created it calls it "earth"...which happened on day 1.

2. No, Genesis tells you the earth was created on the first day, in Chapter 1, verse 1.

3. So you're contention is that something must have shape and form to rotate?

4. Yes, I do.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

oh my gawd

is anyoen else reading his responses?

Phenomanul

05-02-2009, 10:54 PM

No. I'm suggesting virtually everyone back then believed in god.

And I love how you say newton experienced god as a certainty....back to why I can't stand religious people because they are more than 100% confident that there god exists.

Why then would Newton pen down his belief in a Creator with so much conviction if he didn't actually buy into his own beliefs??? Was he lying to everyone else? To himself?

Truth is, his theological works spoke volumes about his life...

ALVAREZ6

05-03-2009, 12:18 AM

Why then would Newton pen down his belief in a Creator with so much conviction if he didn't actually buy into his own beliefs??? Was he lying to everyone else? To himself?

Truth is, his theological works spoke volumes about his life...
Religious thinking is a completely different type of thought than concrete things like physics, math, and science. The former is literally a huge gray area, everyone claims they know stuff but in reality nothing is fucking certain. The latter are concrete, testable areas. But people can vary so far in their thoughts on religion, you can be the most accomplished man in the world and still believe some crazy shit.

Phenomanul

05-03-2009, 01:01 AM

Religious thinking is a completely different type of thought than concrete things like physics, math, and science. The former is literally a huge gray area, everyone claims they know stuff but in reality nothing is fucking certain. The latter are concrete, testable areas. But people can vary so far in their thoughts on religion, you can be the most accomplished man in the world and still believe some crazy shit.

So do you still believe that Christianity held back the scientific movement??? Or are you at least willing to concede that it compeled some of history's brightest minds to enlighten the rest of humanity???

ALVAREZ6

05-03-2009, 01:56 AM

So do you still believe that Christianity held back the scientific movement??? Or are you at least willing to concede that it compeled some of history's brightest minds to enlighten the rest of humanity???
Well, christians can't believe the world is 5,000 years old and also explore astronomy and other sciences. Some scientists may have been religious, but I don't see how christianity compelled scientific thought, other than influencing them to explore science for some legitimate answers that religions try to explain.

peewee's lovechild

05-03-2009, 03:47 AM

God hates Jews and Muslims because he doesn't let them eat pork.

There aint nothing like a rack of ribs with some barbecue sauce slathered all over them.

MiamiHeat

05-03-2009, 04:01 AM

Well, christians can't believe the world is 5,000 years old and also explore astronomy and other sciences. Some scientists may have been religious, but I don't see how christianity compelled scientific thought, other than influencing them to explore science for some legitimate answers that religions try to explain.

Newton lived under a King that did not allow anyone who did not share his religious beliefs to teach in schools or universities. He once tried to give bogus university awards and diplomas to people who agreed with his religious beliefs, but Newton and a few other guys from the university refused to do it, so the King had all of them - including Newton - brought up on trumped up charges. Thankfully, they weren't beheaded and the charges were dismissed.

Booharv

05-03-2009, 03:26 PM

RNy6ziOyxoA

Qft.

MiamiHeat

05-03-2009, 06:06 PM

Would anyone here throw their children in a fiery furnace to suffer forever, no matter what they did?

Christian God is worse than a Nazi.

God - punishes you for being ANYTHING BUT a Christian
Nazi - punishes you for being a Jew

God - throws you in Hell for ETERNAL suffering and torment
Nazi - throws you into a furnace, gasses you, or shoots you, but at least you die

Phenomanul

05-03-2009, 08:27 PM

Phenomanul

05-03-2009, 08:35 PM

Well, christians can't believe the world is 5,000 years old and also explore astronomy and other sciences. Some scientists may have been religious, but I don't see how christianity compelled scientific thought, other than influencing them to explore science for some legitimate answers that religions try to explain.

So they were in it to dissuade themselves from believing in GOD??? You aren't giving their intellect enough credit to let them make that decision for themselves... Fact of the matter is that the majority of them died with the conviction that GOD was the Creator of the Universe...

ALVAREZ6

05-03-2009, 11:02 PM

I have a question.....if you get sentenced to eternal hell by god, do you even feel pain, since you are separate from your body? Can your soul/spirit feel physical pain?

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 07:36 AM

That analogy couldn't be more deceptively heinous if you tried....

The setting of our eternal destiny/fate will be the result of our choices alone...

My only crime would be not accepting the Christian God.

For having a different opinion, or 'not loving God', I deserve eternal suffering ? I am a good person with high morals and compassion, yet I would go to hell if your God was real.

Christian God is worse than a Nazi.

Who the hell would do that to their children just because they didn't love you?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 07:52 AM

My only crime would be not accepting the Christian God.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Suuuuuuure.

bdictjames

05-04-2009, 08:13 AM

Anybody who's just looking at everything that goes on around us, around our bodies, and around the whole universe knows that this is way too weird to be a coincidence.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 08:17 AM

My only crime would be not accepting the Christian God.

For having a different opinion, or 'not loving God', I deserve eternal suffering ? I am a good person with high morals and compassion, yet I would go to hell if your God was real.

Unfortunately for all the Christians who believe this, it really is a big problem.

We as humans wouldn't think it right for a mother/father to throw a child into a furnace for ANY reason, would we?

And yet, God is willing to do such because of a lack of belief in him.

Would the 'choice' argument work if I told someone they could, say, let me rape their wife or I'd shoot them? Of course not.

The only explanation for it is, "If God does it, it's moral." I think that's a horribly poor argument, because morality should not be determined ipso facto by whatever God does/says, but at least that's a consistent rebuttal.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 08:44 AM

Humans have higher morals than the Christian God.

I Love Me Some Me

05-04-2009, 08:50 AM

Unfortunately for all the Christians who believe this, it really is a big problem.

We as humans wouldn't think it right for a mother/father to throw a child into a furnace for ANY reason, would we?

And yet, God is willing to do such because of a lack of belief in him.

Would the 'choice' argument work if I told someone they could, say, let me rape their wife or I'd shoot them? Of course not.

The only explanation for it is, "If God does it, it's moral." I think that's a horribly poor argument, because morality should not be determined ipso facto by whatever God does/says, but at least that's a consistent rebuttal.

Your "rape or get shot" argument is ridiculous. God's not asking you to choose the lesser of two evils....he's asking you to choose between good or evil.

He understands completely the gravity of eternal torment....this is why He sent Jesus as a sacrifice. This is why it's so important to God that you believe in Jesus. The belief of the Christian in Jesus, puts that Christian on the cross with him. The eternal suffering we all deserve was taken by Jesus. If you believe in Him, you are joined with Him and your sentence is complete. If you do not believe, you are not joined with Jesus in his punishment, and your sentence still has to be served.

Ww can compare it all we want to our kids and how we punish them (although most parents present their discipline to their kids as being the result of the child's choices), but the reality is that we're not talking about cookies and staying out late. We're talking about eternity.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 09:37 AM

z0sa

05-04-2009, 09:47 AM

the Christian God sends his 'children' to hell to suffer for eternity just because they didn't love him.

Even most humans wouldn't do that to their own children. It's ridiculous.

No christian can excuse that fact.

its easily reasoned out. you're just a blind idiot who wants what you want, and not what God wants.

God's loss, he loves you, but every sin is equal in God's eyes. That one time you lied denies you entry to heaven. That one time you stole damns you to hell. Only unblemished souls may enter Heaven.

Your soul is blemished from original sin, and from the wide spectrum of sinning you've done. Just not believing in a God is only a fraction of why you won't go to heaven.

z0sa

05-04-2009, 10:01 AM

Unfortunately for all the Christians who believe this, it really is a big problem.

No, its really not. The problem lies with you, not with what 99% of christians believe.

We as humans wouldn't think it right for a mother/father to throw a child into a furnace for ANY reason, would we?

Apples to oranges, completely.

God is giving you chance after chance, to accept and love him, every second of every day. You have chosen not to. Nothing to do with God, he loves you and wants you in heaven. However, God is just, and you are not - by ignoring his love and design, and believing in your own tiny amount of knowledge concerning the universe, you anger God greatly. He has a perfect plan and you're in it. By denying your participation, you avoid the ultimate ending to the Plan - you receiving eternal grace in heaven.

By getting out of sync with God's plan, YOU are dooming yourself - not God. At any time, including right now, you can reenter God's plan and secure your soul.

And yet, God is willing to do such because of a lack of belief in him.

It's not just 'believing,' though doing so on Jesus gets you to heaven according to the Bible. It's the fact you've sinned your entire life, ignored God and denied his very existence which denies you entry to heaven.

You have very much misconstrued the situation. It's obvious no one is perfect - and its not hard to reason that God would not allow anyone imperfect into the pearly gates. That's why he required animal blood offerings initially - but in order to save all souls, he required the blood offering of HIMSELF - Jesus. By acknowledging you are imperfect, by acknowledging Jesus died for your sins, by sincerely asking Jesus to forgive you, you do far more than just "believe" God exists.

The only explanation for it is, "If God does it, it's moral." I think that's a horribly poor argument, because morality should not be determined ipso facto by whatever God does/says, but at least that's a consistent rebuttal.

Herein lies your biggest problem. You think WE, inherently sinful, evil stupid humans, should be the judges of what is moral and immoral, even concerning God.

That's just folly.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 11:45 AM

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 12:03 PM

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 12:12 PM

pkRYaMiP4K8

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 12:23 PM

Nothing to do with God, he loves you and wants you in heaven. However, God is just, and you are not - by ignoring his love and design, and believing in your own tiny amount of knowledge concerning the universe, you anger God greatly. He has a perfect plan and you're in it. By denying your participation, you avoid the ultimate ending to the Plan - you receiving eternal grace in heaven.

My big question is why? Why does god want us in heaven so badly? Why is he angered over the actions of humans? He seems to be so butt-hurt by people who don't believe in him... I just don't get it. If he get's so offended by people not believing him (given that there is very limited true evidence of his existence, at least in my and millions of other earthlings' opinions), why doesn't he make his existence drastically clear? That would probably sway the opinions of the nonbelievers, therefore satisfying his petty human emotion.

Oh yeah, and humans being inherently sinful is bullshit.

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 12:27 PM

Oh yeah, and humans being inherently sinful is bullshit.

If humans are born with original sin because of the sins of Adam, then white Americans are born with the sin of slavery, handed down the generations, and owe reparations to almost every black person in the nation.

I Love Me Some Me

05-04-2009, 12:30 PM

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 12:37 PM

Your "rape or get shot" argument is ridiculous. God's not asking you to choose the lesser of two evils....he's asking you to choose between good or evil.

He understands completely the gravity of eternal torment....this is why He sent Jesus as a sacrifice. This is why it's so important to God that you believe in Jesus. The belief of the Christian in Jesus, puts that Christian on the cross with him. The eternal suffering we all deserve was taken by Jesus. If you believe in Him, you are joined with Him and your sentence is complete. If you do not believe, you are not joined with Jesus in his punishment, and your sentence still has to be served.

Ww can compare it all we want to our kids and how we punish them (although most parents present their discipline to their kids as being the result of the child's choices), but the reality is that we're not talking about cookies and staying out late. We're talking about eternity.

It doesn't matter what the choice is, in all honesty. Let's say I forced you to eat a delicious cookie, or be tormented forever. It's still not moral.

If Jesus took our suffering, then why must we believe? Jesus can't have completely sacrificed for our suffering, if we still have to perform some action on our part.

In the end, you went with the exact argument I figured you would have. "Sure, it seems alot like this circumstance, but it's completely different because it's God/eternity/Heaven/whatever so that makes it ok."

I thought forgiveness was divine? :)

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 12:40 PM

its easily reasoned out. you're just a blind idiot who wants what you want, and not what God wants.

God's loss, he loves you, but every sin is equal in God's eyes. That one time you lied denies you entry to heaven. That one time you stole damns you to hell. Only unblemished souls may enter Heaven.

Your soul is blemished from original sin, and from the wide spectrum of sinning you've done. Just not believing in a God is only a fraction of why you won't go to heaven.

Why doesn't God change the entry fees to Heaven then? Why not make it so if you're a good person, but you've never experienced his love/knowledge, you are still able to get in?

And don't say "It doesn't work that way" because the point is, if God is who he is, he can do anything he wants. He could choose to make Heaven that way.

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 12:40 PM

It doesn't matter what the choice is, in all honesty. Let's say I forced you to eat a delicious cookie, or be tormented forever. It's still not moral.

If Jesus took our suffering, then why must we believe? Jesus can't have completely sacrificed for our suffering, if we still have to perform some action on our part.

In the end, you went with the exact argument I figured you would have. "Sure, it seems alot like this circumstance, but it's completely different because it's God/eternity/Heaven/whatever so that makes it ok."

I thought forgiveness was divine? :)

So you are saying God ought to force you to go to Heaven by making it automatic?

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 12:41 PM

We're only "His children" if we believe He exists, and develop a relationship with Him... Otherwise were just another created being... no more and no less than the angels who were cast down with Lucifer the day they rebelled against GOD.

As for MiamiHeat's Nazi analogy.... Jews didn't have much of a choice in the matter.

Tell me Phenomanul... if God REALLY wanted me to go to Heaven, couldn't he find a way to convince me to believe? :)

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 12:43 PM

So you are saying God ought to force you to go to Heaven by making it automatic?

Given the alternative, if he is all-loving (assuming you think God is more NT than OT), then it makes logical sense that he should force people to go to Heaven, rather than have them burned forever. :)

Punishment only works as a means of REFORM. If the punishment is eternal, what is the point of punishment? Is it merely a scare tactic to convince unbelievers?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 12:50 PM

Punishment only works as a means of REFORM. If the punishment is eternal, what is the point of punishment? Is it merely a scare tactic to convince unbelievers?

God can't punish you here, it would be unjust (he does punish true believers who are surely going to heaven here, however, when they sin). But it's not just punishment.

It's banishment from God's presence.

Never again will you have the chance to see or live in paradise with our father. You made your decision to avoid him and trust your own instincts - and the omnipotent omnipresent God wants nothing to do with your instincts or your decision now that you've for sure made it (when you die a nonbeliever).

Hell is banishment from God's presence and Paradise, not just torment for being a nonbeliever.

z0sa

05-04-2009, 12:54 PM

If Christian God was real, I'd say that the Christian God is an asshole, a sadist, a lunatic.

To suffer for all of eternity just because you don't want to believe.

What's the big deal? Why can't I just be left alone?

How is that JUSTICE?

Yeah, there's no denying it. You can't.

The punishment for not loving a god is eternal suffering. Not even we humans are that cruel.

it's quite just. That's like saying you own a dog and when it shits in the house, you should just let it be.

just because you are blinded by a hate of Deism, doesn't mean it isn't very much just. God created us AND the universe we live, and set out a plan for all of us to get to heaven. Those who stray from the plan have no one to blame but themselves.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 12:54 PM

God can't punish you here, it would be unjust (he does punish true believers who are surely going to heaven here, however, when they sin). But it's not just punishment.

It's banishment from God's presence.

Never again will you have the chance to see or live in paradise with our father. You made your decision to avoid him and trust your own instincts - and the omnipotent omnipresent God wants nothing to do with your instincts or your decision now that you've for sure made it (when you die a nonbeliever).

Hell is banishment from God's presence and Paradise, not just torment for being a nonbeliever.

Can you not see how... childish that seems? Honestly? It just seems so impetulant to me.

"Fine, you don't want to believe me? Then you never will! POOF!"

If God wanted me to follow him, why not convince me? He is OMNIPOTENT. Able to do ANYTHING. Why not convince me then?

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 12:55 PM

Given the alternative, if he is all-loving (assuming you think God is more NT than OT), then it makes logical sense that he should force people to go to Heaven, rather than have them burned forever. :)

Punishment only works as a means of REFORM. If the punishment is eternal, what is the point of punishment? Is it merely a scare tactic to convince unbelievers?

I appreciate how much thought you have given all this.
Please consider the following.

As made clear in God's Word, the Bible, there are only two options from which mankind can choose: Jesus or Satan.
To embrace one is to reject the other. There is no middle ground, no option C.

That is the reality of every human. It is true and eternally effectual, regardless of whether or not we choose to admit it- much like gravity.
I can deny gravity all I want, but if I jump from a building, I am going to fall downward.

God allows free will so therefore has to allow a place for Satan and those who choose to follow Satan to go. That place is Hell.

God desires all people to choose to spend eternity with Him. However He does not force anyone into it.

Every decision comes with consequences. There is no escaping that.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 12:57 PM

it's quite just. That's like saying you own a dog and when it shits in the house, you should just let it be.

just because you are blinded by a hate of Deism, doesn't mean it isn't very much just. God created us AND the universe we live, and set out a plan for all of us to get to heaven. Those who stray from the plan have no one to blame but themselves.

Well, I'm sure most people would feel that I would be crossing a line if I decided to string him up and leave him by himself until he died... :)

Again, just because God CREATED the world, and everything in it, does not mean that he gets to do anything he wants with it and it magically makes it moral.

Just because I create a child does not mean I have the 'right' morally to do whatever I want with it. If you disagree with that statement, then I don't know what to tell you.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 12:58 PM

I appreciate how much thought you have given all this.
Please consider the following.

As made clear in God's Word, the Bible, there are only two options from which mankind can choose: Jesus or Satan.
To embrace one is to reject the other. There is no middle ground, no option C.

That is the reality of every human. It is true and eternally effectual, regardless of whether or not we choose to admit it- much like gravity.
I can deny gravity all I want, but if I jump from a building, I am going to fall downward.

God allows free will so therefore has to allow a place for Satan and those who choose to follow Satan to go. That place is Hell.

God desires all people to choose to spend eternity with Him. However He does not force anyone into it.

Every decision comes with consequences. There is no escaping that.

If God can not counter my free will, is he truly omnipotent?

CuckingFunt

05-04-2009, 12:58 PM

As made clear in God's Word, the Bible, there are only two options from which mankind can choose: Jesus or Satan.
To embrace one is to reject the other. There is no middle ground, no option C.

Which pretty well sums up every problem I have with fervent Christianity.

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 01:00 PM

As made clear in God's Word, the Bible, there are only two options from which mankind can choose: Jesus or Satan.
To embrace one is to reject the other. There is no middle ground, no option C.

Sure there is: C - God and Satan are figments of our imagination.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:00 PM

LOL

Who here would throw their children in a fire and burn them forever just because they didn't love you?

Christian God does!

In fact, is there ANYTHING your child can do that would make you throw them in a fiery hell to suffer for all of eternity being tormented by demons?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:01 PM

Can you not see how... childish that seems? Honestly? It just seems so impetulant to me.

Childish? Yeah, we're definitely on two different wavelengths. God is all just, and never makes "childish" moves. There's a bible (orwhatever) sitting there waiting for you to open it, you said you have and it did nothing for you, well whatever - it's worked veritable miracles for people. You've chosen your fate.

"Fine, you don't want to believe me? Then you never will! POOF!"

Um... yeah... He created you, and wants to make you happy and live in heaven forever. You're giving him the middle finger back.

If God wanted me to follow him, why not convince me? He is OMNIPOTENT. Able to do ANYTHING. Why not convince me then?

Answered already. You want God to come down, send a lightning bolt up all the evil people's asses and force you to realize he's been watching you all along.

There's no choice in that - God won't force you to do jackshit. YOU must make the choice. It's really simple. If that choice is not God, whatever, it doesn't affect me.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:03 PM

I have better morals and more compassion than your Christian God.

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 01:05 PM

LOL

Who here would throw their children in a fire and burn them forever just because they didn't love you?

Christian God does!

It is permissible to kill your disobedient children, just like god. Don't you read Deuteronomy?

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18a.jpg

Deuteronomy 21:18
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father...'

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18b.jpg

...or his mother...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18c.jpg

...even when they punish him...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_19.jpg

..his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_20.jpg

They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_21.jpg

All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:07 PM

that was epic.

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 01:07 PM

I have better morals and more compassion than your Christian God.

Not setting the bar too high there, are we?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:08 PM

LOL

Who here would throw their children in a fire and burn them forever just because they didn't love you?

you're an idiot, no matter how many times you reiterate the same (easily answered and dismissed) concept, no christian will ever give a damn.

Christian God does!

Go murder some people and see if the American law isn't trying to find and punish you.

Go sin and see if God's going to banish you from him presence for being unholy.

In fact, is there ANYTHING your child can do that would make you throw them in a fiery hell to suffer for all of eternity being tormented by demons?

It's apples to oranges totally (humans and god have only his 'nature' in common), but I will play along. Your children hate you and curse your name, deny your very existence even though you are solely responsible for creating the universe and bringing them into it, and ridicule/injure/murder your true family and have been doing so ever since roughly, the beginning of human history.

It's not hard to grasp why a just God would be pissed at his "children" who deny his very existence and refuse to play part in his plan, despite 100% knowledge of a happy ending.

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 01:10 PM

It's not hard to grasp why a just God would be pissed at his "children" who deny his very existence and refuse to play part in his plan, despite 100% knowledge of a happy ending.

True; your definition of god is an insecure criminal who cannot hold his emotions in check.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:14 PM

Go murder some people and see if the American law isn't trying to find and punish you.

Go sin and see if God's going to banish you from him presence for being unholy.

Your idea of God doesn't just 'banish me from his presence'..... he throws everyone in HELL to suffer for eternity in hellfire.

"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

and the most we do to criminals, or murderers, is humanely execute them.

We would NEVER sit there torturing them forever. That's barbaric. Uncivilized.

Your god is uncivilized. Barbaric. Unjust.

and murdering people does not equal to not believing in your god

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 01:14 PM

If God can not counter my free will, is he truly omnipotent?

It is not that He cannot.
God absolutely could control your every decision, but He does not.
He graciously allows you to make decisions- to either profit or suffer according to your own will, in keeping with the eternal principles established since the beginning of the time- which are detailed in the Bible.

As an example, think of God like a head coach of a basketball team.

The coach has a desire and vision for the team and has drawn up plays to enable the players to achieve victory.

The players then have the choice to adopt or reject what their coach has said.

Constant communication between the coach and his players is a key element to the team succeeding.
Also, the players have to have the humility to submit their talents to the guidance of their coach and follow his game plan if they want to win.

If Pop draws up a proven perfect play and Tony disregards it or Timmy refuses to position himself properly, is Pop to blame for the lack of results?
No the fault would lie with Tony or Timmy for thinking they knew better than Pop.

God knows everything from the end of the beginning. He loves you and wants you to succeed.
He wants to be lovingly involved in your life, helping and encouraging you every step of the way.
He wants you on his team, so to speak.
But to prosper you as He so greatly wishes, God requires your participation.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:15 PM

how can anyone deny this?

is it self-deception? no courage to face themselves? lack of wisdom/perception to realize it?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:15 PM

It is permissible to kill your disobedient children, just like god. Don't you read Deuteronomy?

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18a.jpg

Deuteronomy 21:18
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father...'

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18b.jpg

...or his mother...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18c.jpg

...even when they punish him...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_19.jpg

..his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_20.jpg

They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_21.jpg

All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.

so, for a child not cleaning his room and not finishing his dinner, you analogise a glutton and a drunkard?

fail. :td and retarded.

let's not forget one of the Ten Commandments (and that George Carlin bullshit is so easily answered and reasoned out by an objective mind) is Honor your father and your mother. See, unlike nowadays, people back then took their beliefs extremely seriously and when one of your children (and its clearly implying the 25 year old in the basement type child) continually broke a commandment, yeah it shouldn't surprise you.

what a crock of shit, but I didn't expect any better from you.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 01:16 PM

Childish? Yeah, we're definitely on two different wavelengths. God is all just, and never makes "childish" moves. There's a bible (orwhatever) sitting there waiting for you to open it, you said you have and it did nothing for you, well whatever - it's worked veritable miracles for people. You've chosen your fate.

Are you of the opinion that whatever God does is, by definition, moral and/or just?

Um... yeah... He created you, and wants to make you happy and live in heaven forever. You're giving him the middle finger back.

So it is moral to retaliate with punishment?

Answered already. You want God to come down, send a lightning bolt up all the evil people's asses and force you to realize he's been watching you all along.

I said nothing of the sort. Let's do this like a Geometry proof.

1) God loves all his Children, and wants them to believe/go to Heaven.

2) God knows us all intimately.

3) God is omnipotent.

4) One must choose to believe.

5) Given 3, God has the ability to shape my thoughts/actions.

6) Given 1, 2 and 3, God has the ability to shape my thoughts/actions in such a way that I will WANT to believe in Him.

Please tell me at which point my logic is off. :)

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:17 PM

at least the Egyptians didn't care about whether or not you believed.

Their God judged you by the weight of your heart, the deeds and type of person you were.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 01:18 PM

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:18 PM

True; your definition of god is an insecure criminal who cannot hold his emotions in check.

that's your definition of god, bro. keep your ill informed opinions of my thoughts to yourself.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:19 PM

so, for a child not cleaning his room and not finishing his dinner, you analogise a glutton and a drunkard?

fail. :td and retarded.

let's not forget one of the Ten Commandments (and that George Carlin bullshit is so easily answered and reasoned out by an objective mind) is Honor your father and your mother. See, unlike nowadays, people back then took their beliefs extremely seriously and when one of your children (and its clearly implying the 25 year old in the basement type child) continually broke a commandment, yeah it shouldn't surprise you.

what a crock of shit, but I didn't expect any better from you.

what IS a crock of shit is your logic.

He is quoting a direct reference from the bible

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

8 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 01:20 PM

God knows everything from the end of the beginning. He loves you and wants you to succeed.

So god is omniscient? He knows exactly how everything will unfold through all time? Then he isn't omnipotent, because he lacks no ability to change his mind without contradicting himself. If the path of the universe is set in stone, then there is no such thing as free will. If there's no free will, how can there be sin?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:22 PM

So, you're for stoning children who are gluttons and drunkards? :D

the entire premise is being in your parents house, refusing their requests and refusing to 'honor' them with your gluttony and drunken rebelliousness in their home against their wishes.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:22 PM

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 01:22 PM

that's your definition of god, bro. keep your ill informed opinions of my thoughts to yourself.

LMAO. This from the idiot who pretended not to believe in god in the intelligent design thread so he could pretend it was somehow justified by anything but the bullshit bible.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:23 PM

the entire premise is being in your parents house, refusing their requests and refusing to 'honor' them with your gluttony and drunken rebelliousness in their home against their wishes.

and the justice for that is death by stoning?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:24 PM

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:24 PM

and the justice for that is death by stoning?

its against the ten commandments. Continually breaking one of the ten commandments could be punishable by death.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 01:25 PM

It is not that He cannot.
God absolutely could control your every decision, but He does not.
He graciously allows you to make decisions- to either profit or suffer according to your own will, in keeping with the eternal principles established since the beginning of the time- which are detailed in the Bible.

As an example, think of God like a head coach of a basketball team.

The coach has a desire and vision for the team and has drawn up plays to enable the players to achieve victory.

The players then have the choice to adopt or reject what their coach has said.

Constant communication between the coach and his players is a key element to the team succeeding.
Also, the players have to have the humility to submit their talents to the guidance of their coach and follow his game plan if they want to win.

If Pop draws up a proven perfect play and Tony disregards it or Timmy refuses to position himself properly, is Pop to blame for the lack of results?
No the fault would lie with Tony or Timmy for thinking they knew better than Pop.

God knows everything from the end of the beginning. He loves you and wants you to succeed.
He wants to be lovingly involved in your life, helping and encouraging you every step of the way.
He wants you on his team, so to speak.
But to prosper you as He so greatly wishes, God requires your participation.

How am I to participate if I have never seen any participation on his part?

If this is such a big decision, and God cares about me so much, why isn't he trying harder?

I'm sure zosa will say something like, "It's your fault; you hate God; etc etc" but why should all the blame be on me? Do we blame children who are raised poorly, or their parents who did not do an effective job of COMMUNICATING what was expected of them?

When a coach has good players, and he does not communicate to them, is the blame only on the players?

For those who ARE faithful, like yourself Angel Luv, communication may seem easy. However, for those who have never heard/seen the Lord, surely you can see why we fail to see the love/compassion?

To us, God is akin to a 'deadbeat Dad' as it were. Would we tell the child of a deadbeat Dad that is was HIS fault his Dad hasn't reappeared? That if the child just believed enough, the Dad would walk right through that door and everything would be better than fine?

And I've never been very religious in the first place. What about those who DID have faith, and then lost it? What is your explanation for those people? Do they not deserve to go to Heaven as well?

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:25 PM

God has limited himself in a couple different ways, so we have free choice in the matter. He knows if we take this path, we will be saved, and if we take that path, we will not - but he cannot force us to take either one.

That's not a choice.

1) Believe and go to heaven

2) Don't believe and suffer in hellfire, tormented and in pain forerver

Some choice, LOL. Your god is a lunatic.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 01:26 PM

Tell me Phenomanul... if God REALLY wanted me to go to Heaven, couldn't he find a way to convince me to believe? :)

His word says that, "without faith it is impossible to please GOD"...

Why then would he make a personal exception and choose to deviate from his M.O. ... just so that you would come to know Him???

I guess if you truly desired that His existence be made known to you, you could plea for a supernatural manifestation of His presence... except how would you go about making that plea in the first place if you don't have the genuine conviction that GOD is even there to listen???

Blake

05-04-2009, 01:26 PM

1. Yes, because nothing bad can happen when you're drunk at home.

nobody is saying getting plastered is ok....but there is absolutely nothing wrong with downing a few on Friday night after a long week.

2. I can explain it, but you've already made up your mind.

The two are not mutually exclusive, and are in no way contradictory.

what's great is people come up different reasons why James contradicts Paul.
Even Martin Luther had fits trying to figure out the book of James.

...but I guess that's the great thing about the Bible. Work it until you can prove your argument.

3. I can't say it any easier for you Blake...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved.

which ultimately makes little sense on any level. It's why people get frustrated over it.

God is supposed to be just, yet he will save a murderer simply on the grounds of belief while sending a non-believing Jew that has spent their life helping the poor in Africa to an eternity of pain and torment.

I can't say this any easier either: the premise SUCKS.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:26 PM

its against the ten commandments. Continually breaking one of the ten commandments could be punishable by death.

so you believe it is OK to stone your children to death if they don't obey you.

My dog has more morals than you do.

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:26 PM

LMAO. This from the idiot who pretended not to believe in god in the intelligent design thread so he could pretend it was somehow justified by anything but the bullshit bible.

this is the idiot who didn't put forth one drop of tangible evidence for or against evolution, yet joined in with "curbstomp" and "you're a retard" when our opinions differed.

besides outright lying about what i said - i never denied belief in god, nor have I acknowledged myself as being christian.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 01:27 PM

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:28 PM

so you believe it is OK to stone your children to death if they don't obey you.

My dog has more morals than you do.

didn't you say your only crime against God was not believing in him?

now I see why everyone calls you a retard.

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 01:29 PM

this is the idiot who didn't put forth one drop of tangible evidence for or against evolution, yet joined in with "curbstomp" and "you're a retard" when our opinions differed.

besides outright lying about what i said - i never denied belief in god, nor have I acknowledged myself as being christian.

Um, one of your posts was along the lines of "Fuck God, fuck Jesus... ". I pointed out that you were a complete moron for using the second law of thermodynamics in your lousy proof for ID, that you had no idea what you were talking about, that you had no idea what the word entropy meant and so on, which was abundantly clear from your idiotic rants.

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:30 PM

So, YES, you're for stoning children who are gluttons and drunkards. At least have the balls to come right out and say it.

false. they didn't get stoned for being a glutton and a drunkard - its merely an example of someone refusing to obey and honor their parents. If you cared to read more of the Bible on the issue, you would see its up to the Parents to take their children to the gates and demand punishment.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:30 PM

wait what?

I say

so you believe it is OK to stone your children to death if they don't obey you.

My dog has more morals than you do.

and z0sa's response is :

"didn't you say your only crime against god was not believing in him? no wonder they call yo ua retard"

HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE?!?!?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:31 PM

Um, one of your posts was along the lines of "Fuck God, fuck Jesus... ". I pointed out that you were a complete moron for using the second law of thermodynamics in your lousy proof for ID, that you had no idea what you were talking about, that you had no idea what the word entropy meant and so on, which was abundantly clear from your idiotic rants.

it was to make a point. if you refuse to believe in god or jesus or allah or whatever, i don't see how you can outright buy all the bullshit scientists feed you.

and RG did all the arguing for you, bitch. You never made an argument, pausing to attack my argument and call me an idiot. Hey, its your opinion, but that doesn't make you right nor did you ever make a point yourself.

which is why you're a douchebag for calling me out when you never made an argument yourself. In fact, all you fell back on was others' arguments consistently.

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:31 PM

LOL you try to change the subject

fail

i pity the mentally ill, not entertain intellectual conversations with them.

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 01:33 PM

So god is omniscient? He knows exactly how everything will unfold through all time? Then he isn't omnipotent, because he lacks no ability to change his mind without contradicting himself. If the path of the universe is set in stone, then there is no such thing as free will. If there's no free will, how can there be sin?

I feel somewhat foolish attempting to explain the mind of God, as He is greater than anything any feeble mind could even imagine, much less define.

I will do my best to answer your question though, according to the ability I have.

But if you really want answers to this question, why not ask God for yourself?

Omnipotent is all powerful. God can do anything. That is true. I see no contradiction.

Omniscient is knowing everything. God does. He knew we were going to have this conversation.

God does not make mistakes, so He never needs to change His mind.
God has established His Word and sticks to His word that man can know Him and His will.

God established that there be free will and as a result there is.

You accept a standard when it comes to the speed limit, proper spelling, and common courtesy, and yet you find it unreasonable that God would have a standard for mankind?

Where do you think order in the universe and having standards orginated from?

Blake

05-04-2009, 01:33 PM

Yes I do believe the Israelites crossed the Red Sea.

For your consideration:

I post that article not in defense of the Bible.
On the contrary, I believe this article because it lines up with the Bible.

As I told T-Long, I support Science and it's discoveries so long as it gives God the glory He is due.

For your consideration:

.......But the fact remains that the biblical text reads "Sea of Reeds." Whatever else is debated, this fact remains and must be taken seriously. That is not speculation or conjecture or trying to do away with the Bible. It is simply a fact of the Hebrew language. And it is a fact of the biblical text in dozens of references. However the debate is discussed, the biblical text cannot be rationalized away from either direction. It cannot be dismissed as fiction, but then neither can it be used to support tradition or doctrine or even ideas about Scripture apart from what the text actually says. We must simply conclude that we do not know the point of exit of the Israelites from the land, nor do we know the route they took.......

http://www.cresourcei.org/yamsuph.html

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:34 PM

I feel somewhat foolish

Do you think it's moral to throw your children in a pit of fire to suffer for all of eternity just because your child didn't love you?

Answer the question.

Do you think that's moral?

Would you ever do that to your child? We both know you wouldn't. So why do you worship a god that does that?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:34 PM

wait what?

I say

and z0sa's response is :

HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE?!?!?

because dogs don't have morals - you insulted me, and expect an actual response back.
like i said, i don't entertain conversations with the mentally ill.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 01:37 PM

z0sa, i find it highly ironic you call someone else mentally ill, considering the quality of your posts.

lol

z0sa

05-04-2009, 01:38 PM

z0sa, i find it highly ironic you call someone else mentally ill, considering the quality of your posts.

lol

ditto for your morals

hey, the only thing you ever did wrong was not believe right?

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 01:47 PM

For your consideration:

Thanks for the link. I read what you posted. :)

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 01:48 PM

His word says that, "without faith it is impossible to please GOD"...

Why then would he make a personal exception and choose to deviate from his M.O. ... just so that you would come to know Him???

I guess if you truly desired that His existence be made known to you, you could plea for a supernatural manifestation of His presence... except how would you go about making that plea in the first place if you don't have the genuine conviction that GOD is even there to listen???

You're missing my point. I'm not just talking about me... why doesn't he find a way to convince EVERYONE?

Obviously, he DOES convince some people, right? Either him, or his agents, or some manifestation, correct? So why not everyone?

Are you saying that without the conviction that God is there to listen, I can't pray to hear his word? That's circular logic. I can only hear God if I know he's there? :D

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 01:49 PM

false. they didn't get stoned for being a glutton and a drunkard - its merely an example of someone refusing to obey and honor their parents. If you cared to read more of the Bible on the issue, you would see its up to the Parents to take their children to the gates and demand punishment.

Fixed: You're FOR stoning children. If you're not, just say that you don't agree with the Bible and you feel that children shouldn't be stoned.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 01:58 PM

So god is omniscient? He knows exactly how everything will unfold through all time? Then he isn't omnipotent, because he lacks no ability to change his mind without contradicting himself. If the path of the universe is set in stone, then there is no such thing as free will. If there's no free will, how can there be sin?

Ever watch the "Butterfly Effect"???

In my opinion GOD has the capability of knowing the outcome of every possible decision we choose to make throughout our lifetimes, but ultimately, because we're endowed with free will, those choices are still ours to make. Cause and effect... Cause and effect...

That premise is contingent on the fact that an infinite array of 'outcomes' exists for each of our choices... and because GOD is omniscient, He knows the result of every possible path... (kind of like Adam Sandler's "Click").

So yes, GOD gave us free will... but free will wouldn't amount to much of anything if we weren't accountable for our own decisions... So if He didn't create us as drones it's because He wanted for us to come to know Him out of our own volition and not because we were divinely coerced.

I Love Me Some Me

05-04-2009, 02:02 PM

It doesn't matter what the choice is, in all honesty. Let's say I forced you to eat a delicious cookie, or be tormented forever. It's still not moral.

If Jesus took our suffering, then why must we believe? Jesus can't have completely sacrificed for our suffering, if we still have to perform some action on our part.

In the end, you went with the exact argument I figured you would have. "Sure, it seems alot like this circumstance, but it's completely different because it's God/eternity/Heaven/whatever so that makes it ok."

I thought forgiveness was divine? :)

The simple answer is, I eat the delicious cookie without a doubt.

And what action is required to believe?

And actually, that's not my argument at all...that was my response to your question.

nomanches

05-04-2009, 02:07 PM

I Love Me Some Me

05-04-2009, 02:09 PM

It is permissible to kill your disobedient children, just like god. Don't you read Deuteronomy?

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18a.jpg

Deuteronomy 21:18
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father...'

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18b.jpg

...or his mother...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18c.jpg

...even when they punish him...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_19.jpg

..his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_20.jpg

They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_21.jpg

All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.

LOL...ironically, this story has an example of a father who makes every effort to save his son. He corrects him, he punishes him, and after he has extended enough opportunity for the son to correct his behavior (which the son chooses not to do), he must finally turn his child over to face the established consequences of his choices.

nomanches

05-04-2009, 02:10 PM

Omnipotent is all powerful. God can do anything. That is true. I see no contradiction.

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra

After reading a couple of those, my agnosticism strengthened immensely :lol

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 02:10 PM

You're missing my point. I'm not just talking about me... why doesn't he find a way to convince EVERYONE?

He did... He created life... leaving a pretty amazing fingerprint.

Even then naysayers still find ways to discredit His handiwork, choosing instead to believe in abiogenensis (the belief that 'life' was produced from non-living molecules)....

Obviously, he DOES convince some people, right? Either him, or his agents, or some manifestation, correct? So why not everyone?
That conviction is born from the 'sense' that we need Him, something other than ourselves. Some people are simply too self-sufficient, too independent and believe they don't need GOD. One can't find something if they aren't searching for it...

Are you saying that without the conviction that God is there to listen, I can't pray to hear his word? That's circular logic. I can only hear God if I know he's there? :D

Not circular at all... Your prayers will reach heaven only if they are genuine...
If you truly desire to find Him, you will. Otherwise, why waste your breath in mocking His desire to come to know us.

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 02:12 PM

What about the indigenous people around the world who have never heard of Christianity? Will they be saved? If I die as an agnostic or atheist today, then why did God create me if he already knew that I would have no chance at being saved? Does anyone know the answers to these questions because I sure as hell don't.

The Apostle Paul said this:

Romans 1:19-21 KJV

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

The New Living Bible translation breaks the verse down into every day language like this:

Romans 1:19-21 NLT
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 02:14 PM

baseline bum

05-04-2009, 02:18 PM

Ever watch the "Butterfly Effect"???

In my opinion GOD has the capability of knowing the outcome of every possible decision we choose to make throughout our lifetimes, but ultimately, because we're endowed with free will, those choices are still ours to make. Cause and effect... Cause and effect...

That premise is contingent on the fact that an infinite array of 'outcomes' exists for each of our choices... and because GOD is omniscient, He knows the result of every possible path... (kind of like Adam Sandler's "Click").

So yes, GOD gave us free will... but free will wouldn't amount to much of anything if we weren't accountable for our own decisions... So if He didn't create us as drones it's because He wanted for us to come to know Him out of our own volition and not because we were divinely coerced.

That's definitely not omniscience, though it would make god a hell of a computer (in the sense of one who can do amazing computations, not in the sense of being a bunch of circuit-boards).

nomanches

05-04-2009, 02:19 PM

That decision is always your to make...

My decisions would have already been foreseen by God. It doesn't make sense to me that he would create me knowing that I am most likely going to die without some sort of epiphany or conversion and a lack of faith in him.

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 02:21 PM

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra

After reading a couple of those, my agnosticism strengthened immensely :lol

You do realize that the "he" refers to Judah not the Lord, right?

Judges 1:1-3

Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?

And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.

And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

You can subsitute "and he drave" for "and Judah drave.", as it is understood in the context.

Something else: How can you be sure that the chariots of iron was not Judah's excuse to not deal with the valley inhabitants?

Is it not possible that God told Judah to drive out the valley inhabitants but Judah would not out of concern about the chariots and so God honored Judah's free will and did not force the issue?

z0sa

05-04-2009, 02:28 PM

Fixed: You're FOR stoning children. If you're not, just say that you don't agree with the Bible and you feel that children shouldn't be stoned.

ridiculous. You act like there simply can't be a reasonable explanation, despite the fact I gave you one. I NEVER implied, nor stated, i was for stoning children - and the verse is obviously not talking about a child per se, nor gluttons and drunkards. It's not actually speaking about a specific situation even.

Ancient Israel was a THEOCRACY, people. They were led not by a king, but by GOD (there were judges, and even kings at one point, but God was always acknowledged as "head of state"). When GOD orders something, people take it VERY SERIOUSLY. GOD (i capitalize it for clarity - this is the almighty King of Kings we're talking here) comes down himself, gives your nation ten commandments which must NEVER be broken, and commands his followers to obey them. What is so hard to understand about the parents eventually becoming angry and frightened at such a sinful child (and I say child as in their child, not a little kid or even teenager - their were little or no children in ancient Israel which were gluttons, and even more chances they were not drunkards) who has continually dishonored them against God's (the King of the entire Nation) wishes and their own, despite living in their home. Again, its up to the parents to take their child to the gates and ask the men to stone him.

nomanches

05-04-2009, 02:29 PM

You do realize that the "he" refers to Judah not the Lord, right?

Yes I do. However, the Lord was with Judah and helping him throughout the day and now because there were chariots of iron, the Lord was reluctant?

Something else: How can you be sure that the chariots of iron was not Judah's excuse to not deal with the valley inhabitants?

If the Lord, the all powerful, was on your side during a major conflict or major decision, why would you doubt anything you decide to do knowing you have automatic success at your side? Why would Judah doubt, then?

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 02:38 PM

Yes I do. However, the Lord was with Judah and helping him throughout the day and now because there were chariots of iron, the Lord was reluctant?

If the Lord, the all powerful, was on your side during a major conflict or major decision, why would you doubt anything you decide to do knowing you have automatic success at your side? Why would Judah doubt, then?

The Lord was not reluctant. Judah was.

Judah doubted because men's hearts are clouded with fear.
Think about the disciple Simom Peter, who literally walked with Jesus and witnessed Jesus miracles firsthand. Yet many, many times Simon Peter wrestled with fear and disbelief, even in the physical presence of Jesus.

Jesus had the following to say to Peter.

Luke 22:31-32-

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Read it again and, this time, substitute your name where it says Simon.
I believe the same Jesus who called Simon, strengthened Simon's faith and encouraged Simon's heart wants to call, strengthen, and encourage YOU! :)

Blake

05-04-2009, 02:41 PM

God hates Jews and Muslims because he doesn't let them eat pork.

he deprives "his chosen ones" of earthly pleasures and then because of their failure to believe in Jesus, he tortures them further in hell for eternity.

Great.

Blake

05-04-2009, 02:45 PM

We're only "His children" if we believe He exists, and develop a relationship with Him... Otherwise were just another created being... no more and no less than the angels who were cast down with Lucifer the day they rebelled against GOD.

so what exactly are angels then? are they not capable of developing a relationship with God?

apparently they were created with free will, otherwise Lucifer would have never rebelled against God.

according to I love Me Some Me's line of reasoning, we will not be capable of doing such things.......therefore, we will be less than the angels.

yippee.

z0sa

05-04-2009, 02:47 PM

so what exactly are angels then? are they not capable of developing a relationship with God?

apparently they were created with free will, otherwise Lucifer would have never rebelled against God.

according to I love Me Some Me's line of reasoning, we will not be capable of doing such things.......therefore, we will be less than the angels.

yippee.

you really think heaven is gonna suck? i know its probably just a type of shtick since i'm pretty sure you dont believe in a heaven, but seriously whats the deal?

nomanches

05-04-2009, 02:48 PM

The Lord was not reluctant. Judah was.
We will probably never see eye to eye on this :lol

Read it again and, this time, substitute your name where it says Simon.
I believe the same Jesus who called Simon, strengthened Simon's faith and encouraged Simon's heart wants to call, strengthen, and encourage YOU! :)

I did and it sounded weird and creepy:lol

Although I disagree with your beliefs, I must say that I genuinely wish I had the same faith in there being a god, or God like you. I really want there to be an all loving being,celestial parent watching out for us. It sounds great. But, I just cannot find or accept anything to make me believe that there is.

Blake

05-04-2009, 02:51 PM

My big question is why? Why does god want us in heaven so badly?

....and if he wants us in heaven so badly, then why not just skip the earth part altogether and just get us all in Heaven from the start?

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 02:54 PM

We will probably never see eye to eye on this :lol

I did and it sounded weird and creepy:lol

Although I disagree with your beliefs, I must say that I genuinely wish I had the same faith in there being a god, or God like you. I really want there to be an all loving being,celestial parent watching out for us. It sounds great. But, I just cannot find or accept anything to make me believe that there is.

I have some amazing friends and family, but no one has ever loved me as wonderfully as Jesus has.

Jesus has been my constant friend and a never failing source of help, comfort, and joy to me.

The Lord promises that all who seek Him will find Him. This is His promise to you.

You will be in my prayers. :)
If I can answer any questions or assist you in anyway. let me know. I would be delighted to help you.

That goes for all of you in this thread. :)

Blake

05-04-2009, 02:57 PM

So you are saying God ought to force you to go to Heaven by making it automatic?

why the entrance fee?

I Love Me Some Me

05-04-2009, 02:59 PM

why the entrance fee?

What fee?

Blake

05-04-2009, 03:12 PM

As an example, think of God like a head coach of a basketball team.

If Pop draws up a proven perfect play and Tony disregards it or Timmy refuses to position himself properly, is Pop to blame for the lack of results?
No the fault would lie with Tony or Timmy for thinking they knew better than Pop.

I'd like to take your thought process one step further.

Pop draws up a perfect play from a luxury suite upstairs and sends it down to the bench.

20 different assistant coaches draw up their versions of the play, and Tim and Tony get confused.

They asked to see Pop, but are told that they just have to have faith that he is upstairs and the play he sent is perfect.

Tony doesn't believe that there is a Pop, so when he dies, Pop is pissed........not that he didn't run the right play, but because Tony didn't believe in Pop and that Tim died for Tony's sins....

so Pop sends Tony to hell for all eternity to be punished and tortured....

"...and Pop saw all that he had created, looked at the 4 rings on his fingers and said, "damn, it is good"

ashbeeigh

05-04-2009, 03:15 PM

Does someone want to summarize this one for me?

Blake

05-04-2009, 03:15 PM

He did... He created life... leaving a pretty amazing fingerprint.

Even then naysayers still find ways to discredit His handiwork, choosing instead to believe in abiogenensis (the belief that 'life' was produced from non-living molecules)....

That conviction is born from the 'sense' that we need Him, something other than ourselves. Some people are simply too self-sufficient, too independent and believe they don't need GOD. One can't find something if they aren't searching for it...

Not circular at all... Your prayers will reach heaven only if they are genuine...
If you truly desire to find Him, you will. Otherwise, why waste your breath in mocking His desire to come to know us.

then why have ministers that have spent their life studying the word, searching for him finally give up and go atheist?

explain how a tribesman in Africa will find Jesus.

Blake

05-04-2009, 03:17 PM

What fee?

so I don't have to do anything to get in?

then what have you been arguing about this whole time?

Blake

05-04-2009, 03:21 PM

you really think heaven is gonna suck?

I'm pointing out the inconstitencies about what heaven is going to be like.

I've already asked how we still have free will in Heaven.

ILMSM said that we will have free will but will not have the capacity to sin any more.

Please explain why Heaven will be better than Earth. Singing to Jesus all day long from mansion is not a reason.

No schtick here. why is it better?

E20

05-04-2009, 03:21 PM

I never get why people who believe or don't believe in God try to explain or think how God works. I am religous myself, but I don't go around trying to think of how God operates and why he would do this or how his plan works.

I mean since God is Omnipotent/all that and so way ahead of humans, why would humans try to explain on god's behalf about his 'thought' process or ultimate plan when the human mind is finite and God is infinite. It's obviously something way over the human brain if god existed. It's like trying to explain an infinitley abstract concept and humans can't think of a logical way to do it, because if God is infinitley advanced than us we wouldn't be able to understand it.

It's pretty simple and I hate religous convos on teh internet:

1. Some people choose to believe.
2. others don't

wtf cares let people choose what they want to believe out of respect for their choice and kick back

Blake

05-04-2009, 03:23 PM

I never get why people who believe or don't believe in God try to explain how God works. I am religous myself, but I don't go around trying to think of how God operates and why he would do this or how his plan works.

I mean since God is Omnipotent/all that and so way ahead of humans, why would humans try to explain on god's behalf about his 'thought' process or ultimate plan when the human mind is finite and God is infinite. It's obviously something way over the human brain if god existed. It's like trying to explain an infinitley abstract concept and humans can't.

It's pretty simple and I hate religous convos on teh internet:

1. Some people choose to believe.
2. others don't

wtf cares let people choose what they want to believe out of respect for their choice and kick back

You do yourself a disservice by not doing any critical thinking about your belief system.

The God of the OT is different than the God of the NT. People ask why. Sheeple don't.

I Love Me Some Me

05-04-2009, 03:26 PM

so I don't have to do anything to get in?

then what have you been arguing about this whole time?
just believe.

E20

05-04-2009, 03:27 PM

You do yourself a disservice by not doing any critical thinking about your belief system.

The God of the OT is different than the God of the NT. People ask why. Sheeple don't.

I do think about my belief system, question it, find answers, and analyze it, but what I was referring to was all the bs questions like:

Why would I want to go heaven and why does god want me there?
Is it free?
Why does this happen and why doesn't this happen? what is god thinking?
is he gonna torture everyone else besides so and so?

I don't think of scenarios where I try to examine what's going in God's head and attempt to explain everything that has happend on earth and what made god want to do it; I don't try to explain something infinite with finite mind. I think and try to learn more about the belief system and why I follow the guidelines and what the underlying message is.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 03:32 PM

just believe.

Why don't you believe in unicorns, Zeus or Amun-Ra?

Why only Jesus?

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 03:36 PM

Which pretty well sums up every problem I have with fervent Christianity.
hahaha

I completely agree

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 03:39 PM

how can anyone deny this?

is it self-deception? no courage to face themselves? lack of wisdom/perception to realize it?
it's called being a pussy.

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 03:43 PM

if you refuse to believe in god or jesus or allah or whatever, i don't see how you can outright buy all the bullshit scientists feed you.

this may be one of the dumbest questions I have ever read and will ever read in my entire life and my eventually eternal damnation.

E20

05-04-2009, 03:46 PM

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 03:48 PM

E20

05-04-2009, 03:49 PM

that's a hell of a lot better than some book about one of thousands of gods written by humans in the bronze age.
Yeah but humans as a species are illogical at times. We all do illogical things in life, believing in god is illogical by human standards you cannot say something is there when there are no means to prove it emperically, that's why you cannot measure faith by scientific means. faith is something irrational that you believe in. To believe in god you have to put aisde some rationale/reason for faith.

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 03:50 PM

I have a question.....if you get sentenced to eternal hell by god, do you even feel pain, since you are separate from your body? Can your soul/spirit feel physical pain?
Can anyone answer this?

E20

05-04-2009, 03:52 PM

Can anyone answer this?

No one in the universe can, except God. Anyone attempting to try to explain how things operate and how God thinks or the afterlife/spirtural stuff are lying. That's soemthign no one can explain and if it does exist then you will have to wait and find out

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 03:57 PM

Can anyone answer this?

You feel pain.

Read the Bible it's in there.

Blake

05-04-2009, 03:57 PM

just believe.

.....in Jesus.....not just God, but Jesus.....

thus the entrance fee.

Silver&Black Warrior

05-04-2009, 03:57 PM

"The spirit makes it clear that as time goes on, some are going to give up on the faith and chase after illusions put forth by professional liars. These liars have lied so well and for so long that they've lost their capacity for truth. They will tell you not to get married. They will tell you not to eat this or that food..."

The end is near.

Just curios as to where you got this quote. Very, very curios.

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 03:58 PM

When it comes to new science that hasn't been around for a while and hasn't broken ground I'm a skeptic, just how science wants you to be. I want data, proofs, studies, theories, anything that can or might be able to prove it wrong and see what people in the area that are important have to say about it.
There's tons of these things...

And you're correct, science is new. Religions date way back and have been passed down and enforced and obeyed simply because they were the only source of explanation humans had. But as time passes, I'd say our society improves and moves forward in all directions. We realize past traditions were fucked up (slavery, lynching black people, killing gays, genocides against different religious groups, etc.) and we adjust our behaviors. We understand a whole lot more with every century in time. Separation of state and church is a very new concept in human history, and as more time passes, there will be less and less need for religion. People are realizing this, and this is why atheism and agnosticism is increasing. Religion will still be useful for many people, I don't believe it will ever die, I understand some people need have faith and want to be comforted by religion throughout their lives.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 03:59 PM

Ever watch the "Butterfly Effect"???

In my opinion GOD has the capability of knowing the outcome of every possible decision we choose to make throughout our lifetimes, but ultimately, because we're endowed with free will, those choices are still ours to make. Cause and effect... Cause and effect...

That premise is contingent on the fact that an infinite array of 'outcomes' exists for each of our choices... and because GOD is omniscient, He knows the result of every possible path... (kind of like Adam Sandler's "Click").

So yes, GOD gave us free will... but free will wouldn't amount to much of anything if we weren't accountable for our own decisions... So if He didn't create us as drones it's because He wanted for us to come to know Him out of our own volition and not because we were divinely coerced.

Does he know which choice we will ultimately make before we make it? (I'm just having fun here. :D)

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 04:00 PM

You feel pain.

Read the Bible it's in there.
lmao, I'd much rather not

Blake

05-04-2009, 04:22 PM

I do think about my belief system, question it, find answers, and analyze it, but what I was referring to was all the bs questions like:

Why would I want to go heaven and why does god want me there?
Is it free?
Why does this happen and why doesn't this happen? what is god thinking?
is he gonna torture everyone else besides so and so?

I don't think of scenarios where I try to examine what's going in God's head and attempt to explain everything that has happend on earth and what made god want to do it; I don't try to explain something infinite with finite mind. I think and try to learn more about the belief system and why I follow the guidelines and what the underlying message is.

who are you in your finite mind to say what a BS question is and isn't?

there are some philosophical hypotheticals that arise from certain tenets of the Christian faith.

If you don't want to answer them, great, but I can show the Christian faith itself to be more BS than than the questions I and others are asking.

Blake

05-04-2009, 04:24 PM

Does he know which choice we will ultimately make before we make it? (I'm just having fun here. :D)

according to those here, yes he does...

which means he ulimately knows he will send you to hell even before he creates you.....

...and he created you because he loves you.

tlongII

05-04-2009, 04:39 PM

There's tons of these things...

And you're correct, science is new. Religions date way back and have been passed down and enforced and obeyed simply because they were the only source of explanation humans had. But as time passes, I'd say our society improves and moves forward in all directions. We realize past traditions were fucked up (slavery, lynching black people, killing gays, genocides against different religious groups, etc.) and we adjust our behaviors. We understand a whole lot more with every century in time. Separation of state and church is a very new concept in human history, and as more time passes, there will be less and less need for religion. People are realizing this, and this is why atheism and agnosticism is increasing. Religion will still be useful for many people, I don't believe it will ever die, I understand some people need have faith and want to be comforted by religion throughout their lives.

Actually this is false. The ancient Greeks were terrific scientists. One of the things that pisses me off about Christianity is the fact that we lost so much scientific knowledge developed by ancient Greece because of it.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 04:47 PM

Does he know which choice we will ultimately make before we make it? (I'm just having fun here. :D)

Most Christians don't really explore the gift of free-will to its fullness... and many fail to understand the responsibilty that comes along with the gift.... My response to your question then may come as a surprise to you... given that I've often contemplated over these very questions myself...

No. The choices are ours alone... Part of giving us free-will meant that GOD would have to constrain Himself from controlling us.

His decision to do so, however, does not diminish His omnipotence because He is fully capable of doing so [controlling us]... He has relinquished that power to allow us to make our own choices... The risk GOD took by gifting free-will to mankind however was worth the reward, even despite the emergence of evil... No one, not even GOD desires to be loved through coercion...

GOD commands supreme sovereignty over everything and has the power to orchestrate events around our lives... Nevertheless, He has chosen to let us carve out our own paths... Why do you think we have to ask Him for guidance and wisdom??? Because we don't want to suffer the consequences of acting out against His perfect will. Sometimes we 'rob' ourselves of the blessings that GOD would have graciously bestowed upon us simply because we have chosen to walk away from the path that He wanted for our lives... many times continually...

Think of it like a "Navigation System": anytime one deviate's from the planned route it tries to recalculate an alternate route... the new path may be longer... may place us in peril... or simply be undesirable... but ultimately we place ourselves in that predicament...

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 04:48 PM

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 04:50 PM

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 04:50 PM

astronomy is ancient. really, really, really old.

watching the stars and the sun and the moon is where humans made up the idea of god.

celestial battles, traveling through the sky, etc.

MiamiHeat

05-04-2009, 04:56 PM

Actually this is false. The ancient Greeks were terrific scientists. One of the things that pisses me off about Christianity is the fact that we lost so much scientific knowledge developed by ancient Greece because of it.

that's why we call some period "the dark ages" .... science was suppressed, in fact, anyone who didn't confess to believe in christianity was suppressed/killed.

humanity was left in darkness, stunting progress

ALVAREZ6

05-04-2009, 04:59 PM

astronomy is ancient. really, really, really old.

watching the stars and the sun and the moon is where humans made up the idea of god.

celestial battles, traveling through the sky, etc.
True, aristotle was a pioneer in this thought. I know it started a long time ago, but what those guys knew was very limited compared to now. They simply didn't have the technology.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 05:09 PM

Actually this is false. The ancient Greeks were terrific scientists. One of the things that pisses me off about Christianity is the fact that we lost so much scientific knowledge developed by ancient Greece because of it.

Like I said, stating a lie repeatedly won't make it any more accurate...

Several centuries spanned the gap between the height of the Greek Empire and the dawn of the Vatican-led Roman Empire... Your suggestion then that Christianity is to blame for the demise of Greek Science is preposterous...

An earlier suggestion that Christians burned the library at Alexandria is also preposterous...

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 05:16 PM

He did... He created life... leaving a pretty amazing fingerprint.

Even then naysayers still find ways to discredit His handiwork, choosing instead to believe in abiogenensis (the belief that 'life' was produced from non-living molecules)....

To be fair, it would have been much easier if he strung out a line of stars that said "God was here" :D

That conviction is born from the 'sense' that we need Him, something other than ourselves. Some people are simply too self-sufficient, too independent and believe they don't need GOD. One can't find something if they aren't searching for it...

He was the one that saw my creation, correct? Didn't he see before my birth that I would be too independent? How can he be mad at me for something he's seen before my birth?

Not circular at all... Your prayers will reach heaven only if they are genuine...
If you truly desire to find Him, you will. Otherwise, why waste your breath in mocking His desire to come to know us.

I always find it interesting that the blame is put squarely on the doubter's shoulder. :)

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 05:18 PM

ridiculous. You act like there simply can't be a reasonable explanation, despite the fact I gave you one. I NEVER implied, nor stated, i was for stoning children - and the verse is obviously not talking about a child per se, nor gluttons and drunkards. It's not actually speaking about a specific situation even.

Ancient Israel was a THEOCRACY, people. They were led not by a king, but by GOD (there were judges, and even kings at one point, but God was always acknowledged as "head of state"). When GOD orders something, people take it VERY SERIOUSLY. GOD (i capitalize it for clarity - this is the almighty King of Kings we're talking here) comes down himself, gives your nation ten commandments which must NEVER be broken, and commands his followers to obey them. What is so hard to understand about the parents eventually becoming angry and frightened at such a sinful child (and I say child as in their child, not a little kid or even teenager - their were little or no children in ancient Israel which were gluttons, and even more chances they were not drunkards) who has continually dishonored them against God's (the King of the entire Nation) wishes and their own, despite living in their home. Again, its up to the parents to take their child to the gates and ask the men to stone him.

So you are FOR PARENTS BRINGING THEIR CHILDREN TO THE PROPER AUTHORITIES TO BE STONED.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 05:20 PM

LOL...ironically, this story has an example of a father who makes every effort to save his son. He corrects him, he punishes him, and after he has extended enough opportunity for the son to correct his behavior (which the son chooses not to do), he must finally turn his child over to face the established consequences of his choices.

So do you think it's moral/acceptable to allow your child to be stoned to death?

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 05:23 PM

Most Christians don't really explore the gift of free-will to its fullness... and many fail to understand the responsibilty that comes along with the gift.... My response to your question then may come as a surprise to you... given that I've often contemplated over these very questions myself...

No. The choices are ours alone... Part of giving us free-will meant that GOD would have to constrain Himself from controlling us.

His decision to do so, however, does not diminish His omnipotence because He is fully capable of doing so [controlling us]... He has relinquished that power to allow us to make our own choices... The risk GOD took by gifting free-will to mankind however was worth the reward, even despite the emergence of evil... No one, not even GOD desires to be loved through coercion...

GOD commands supreme sovereignty over everything and has the power to orchestrate events around our lives... Nevertheless, He has chosen to let us carve out our own paths... Why do you think we have to ask Him for guidance and wisdom??? Because we don't want to suffer the consequences of acting out against His perfect will. Sometimes we 'rob' ourselves of the blessings that GOD would have graciously bestowed upon us simply because we have chosen to walk away from the path that He wanted for our lives... many times continually...

Think of it like a "Navigation System": anytime one deviate's from the planned route it tries to recalculate an alternate route... the new path may be longer... may place us in peril... or simply be undesirable... but ultimately we place ourselves in that predicament...

So he COULD be omnipotent, but chooses not to be? Just like I COULD be a rocket scientist, but chose not to be. ;)

Here's my big question now: Why create us with free will, and then hinge our ETERNAL existence on a TEMPORARY life based on ONE decision? And not only that, but not a decision based in hard fact, but one based on a need to BELIEVE in something without full knowledge?

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 05:25 PM

just believe.

What if I gave you a scenario, in which I told you you must believe in a different God, let's call him... Jambo.

And if you DIDN'T believe in Jambo, then you would be tormented for all eternity.

As evidence of Jambo's existence, I gave you the same evidence that you had for God, as well as a 10 page pamphlet.

Would you see a great need to believe in this Jambo? Put yourself in the shoes of a non-believer for a moment. Would you, COULD you believe?

Blake

05-04-2009, 05:32 PM

Like I said, stating a lie repeatedly won't make it any more accurate...

you mean like christianity?

j/k

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 05:34 PM

So he COULD be omnipotent, but chooses not to be? Just like I COULD be a rocket scientist, but chose not to be. ;)

Read my post again (I added some other statements to it while you were responding to it)...

HE has always been ominipotent and forever will be...

By electing to not do something that you are capable of doing, are you still not excising that option??? GOD does so willingly... don't think for a split second however that He doesn't have the power to 'smite' us... under the covenant He made with humanity through Jesus, He has chosen to delay the passing out His judgement.

On a side note... can you choose to be something that you are incapable of becoming??? You can only elect those things which are within your capabilities. Hypothetically if you were capable of becoming a rocket scientist and chose to become a neuro-surgeon instead... that was free will. If however you were a slacker at school... and expected to become one... that's delusion.

Here's my big question now: Why create us with free will, and then hinge our ETERNAL existence on a TEMPORARY life based on ONE decision? And not only that, but not a decision based in hard fact, but one based on a need to BELIEVE in something without full knowledge?

Risk and reward....

Blake

05-04-2009, 05:36 PM

No. The choices are ours alone...Part of giving us free-will meant that GOD would have to constrain Himself from controlling us.

ILMSM says that we will have free will in heaven but won't be capable of sinning...

if we have the same free will in heaven as we do now (where we aren't robots), then why create earth to begin with?

that makes no sense.

Blake

05-04-2009, 05:40 PM

....don't think for a split second however that He doesn't have the power to 'smite' us... under the covenant He made with humanity through Jesus, He has chosen to delay the passing out His judgement.

why does he have to "smite" us? torturing us for eternity?
why not just a simple separation? or why not reincarnate us back to earth until we get it right?

forgiveness is the entire Christian theme, yet in the end, there is no more forgiveness after you die. That's a contradiction no matter how you look at it.

Blake

05-04-2009, 05:42 PM

Risk and reward....

I didn't realize the word risk was in the Bible.

I thought it was something preachers use to get more people in the seats on Sunday.

tlongII

05-04-2009, 05:42 PM

Like I said, stating a lie repeatedly won't make it any more accurate...

Several centuries spanned the gap between the height of the Greek Empire and the dawn of the Vatican-led Roman Empire... Your suggestion then that Christianity is to blame for the demise of Greek Science is preposterous...

An earlier suggestion that Christians burned the library at Alexandria is also preposterous...

Preposterous my ass. It's a documented fact.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 05:43 PM

ILMSM says that we will have free will in heaven but won't be capable of sinning...

if we have the same free will in heaven as we do now (where we aren't robots), then why create earth to begin with?

that makes no sense.

GOD initially made earth to be a paradise for man... until Adam disobeyed and tarnished the plan.

At that moment GOD set a plan in motion to rescue mankind... something (interestingly enough) which he didn't do for the angels when they rebelled against Him...

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 05:46 PM

Preposterous my ass. It's a documented fact.

Which claim??....

tlongII

05-04-2009, 05:47 PM

I'll quote something from a link for you...

the Christian church which, when they rose to political power in the fourth century, the status of knowledge, science and secular learning started to decline. Church father Augustine early formulated the basic Church opinion when he said that there was no need for science when one had the holy gospels. With this moronic view Augustine lived as he learned: He was convinced among other things that the blood of a goat was the only thing capable of splitting diamonds, that the wind impregnated horses in Kappadokia (in Asia minor) etc. He didn’t on the other hand believe that the earth had spherical form, something that at his time had been known for centuries. Everything a man could possibly need of knowledge you could find in the Bible according to Augustine. And if something wasn’t in the Bible, it was bad and possibly harmful.

Blake

05-04-2009, 05:49 PM

Preposterous my ass. It's a documented fact.

debatable

tlongII

05-04-2009, 05:50 PM

Education
Education was still considered important in the fourth and fifth century. This was mainly due to the strong earlier tradition for education in antiquity, and had nothing to do with the Church. The education gradually became more of reproducing and preservation of old knowledge than development and progress. In all areas the common familiarity with the earlier knowledge declined, and gradually got lost. The antiquity’s extensive education and diverse science gradually narrowed down to just become studies of the Biblical texts. Knowledge of Greek language, the very foundation and prerequisite for any science for centuries, became scarce. Soon only the clergy could read and write, many of those were not particularly skilled at it either.

In the course of the first six centuries AD, the old public education and the sciences of antiquity were condemned and replaced by theology (except for astronomy which was needed to calculate the time for the different religious celebrations through the year). A science was now only considered useful if it could be used to support the preaching of the Church and the dogmas. Independent thinking more or less disappeared, knowledge diminished and reason was frowned upon. In the beginning of the 7.th century the public education was almost eradicated.

For the early Christians in the first and second century, there were no real bans on learning the “pagan” knowledge of Antiquity, but it was a widespread notion that Christians should not be teaching this “pagan” knowledge. Therefore, Christianity didn’t have its own schools until the sixth century. Church fathers like f.ex. Origenes and Augustine themselves had the benefit of learning the “pagan” culture, philosophy and knowledge, like the works of Plato and Aristotle. Education and knowledge was at best considered as a necessary evil, and only if it could be used to support the theology.

Blake

05-04-2009, 05:51 PM

GOD initially made earth to be a paradise for man... until Adam disobeyed and tarnished the plan.

At that moment GOD set a plan in motion to rescue mankind... something (interestingly enough) which he didn't do for the angels when they rebelled against Him...

got that.

and if that is true, and we have the same free will in Heaven, then logic dictates that we will be able to sin in heaven.....
or we no longer have free will

Blake

05-04-2009, 05:52 PM

quote with no link

tlongII

05-04-2009, 05:53 PM

Pious illiterates
The Catholic schools were mainly pure theological/philosophical faculties, and their studies and knowledge of marginal or none importance for the society at large outside their walls. Antiquity’s rich amount of texts and widespread exchange of these, were no longer available to others than the clerical elite in the churches and monasteries. And the level of education was not particularly impressive; at the consile in Chalcedony in 451 AD all the forty bishops were illiterates. The popes in the following centuries literally boasted of their ignorance, they didn’t read or write Greek at all and their Latin were miserable. Several of the popes as late as the ninth-century couldn’t even read or write at all. The “wisdom” of the clergy, has mainly been due to the ignorance of the public.

tlongII

05-04-2009, 05:53 PM

http://www.bandoli.no/knowledge.htm

Blake

05-04-2009, 05:55 PM

http://www.bandoli.no/knowledge.htm

biased source.

great job. :rolleyes

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 05:56 PM

http://www.bandoli.no/knowledge.htm

The Vatican (equals not) Christianity...

tlongII

05-04-2009, 05:57 PM

biased source.

great job. :rolleyes

Any source that argues one point or the other is going to be biased. That doesn't make it any less true.

tlongII

05-04-2009, 05:58 PM

The Vatican (equals not) Christianity...

Without Christianity there would be no Vatican.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 06:20 PM

got that.

and if that is true, and we have the same free will in Heaven, then logic dictates that we will be able to sin in heaven.....
or we no longer have free will

Even before 'the fall' Adam and Eve weren't impervious to sin... Yeah, they were sinless... but sin existed simply because Lucifer and his minions existed... and because GOD didn't restrict earth-access to them. It was the serpent (Lucifer) that introduced Adam and Eve to sin - to his miserable curse...

I'm not entirely sure we will have the capability of sinning once "sin has been defeated once and for all"... Without such a powerful force in Heaven, who or what would be a driver for sin to ever resurface???

That phrase could also imply that we will have no memory of sin altogether... Who knows - the Bible isn't explicitly detailed on the nature of our eternal activities (considering it would likely take an infinitely sized book to capture it all)....

Maybe our glorified bodies will be incapable of 'tempting' and betraying our minds... We will not hunger because we will always feel satiated... we will not lust because we will feel the euphoria of sustaining an eternal "orgasm" or something even greater... :wow We will not feel compeled to hoard treasures because everything and anything imaginable will be at our disposal in our Father's 'mansion'... We will not feel hatred, anger or sadness because we will constantly be overwhelmed with the Joy and the Peace of the LORD's presence. Although I admit, there's a great deal of speculation in what I just wrote... "Free-will," however, will likely not be my number one 'concern' while there...

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 06:25 PM

Without Christianity there would be no Vatican.

I believe lust for power was to blame for those policies... Not the Christian ideals which later heralded the scientific movement we know today, and the principles on which this nation was established.

clambake

05-04-2009, 06:26 PM

lol adam and eve

lol serpent

angel_luv

05-04-2009, 06:43 PM

I'd like to take your thought process one step further.

Pop draws up a perfect play from a luxury suite upstairs and sends it down to the bench.

20 different assistant coaches draw up their versions of the play, and Tim and Tony get confused.

They asked to see Pop, but are told that they just have to have faith that he is upstairs and the play he sent is perfect.

Tony doesn't believe that there is a Pop, so when he dies, Pop is pissed........not that he didn't run the right play, but because Tony didn't believe in Pop and that Tim died for Tony's sins....

so Pop sends Tony to hell for all eternity to be punished and tortured....

"...and Pop saw all that he had created, looked at the 4 rings on his fingers and said, "damn, it is good"

Your example does not follow the Scripture. God did not send 20 people down with His plan. God sent His One and Only Son Jesus, who clearly outlined the way for man to return to right standing with God.

LnGrrrR

05-04-2009, 08:08 PM

Risk and reward....

You are aware that many other cultures say THEIR God is the only true God as well. When you add up all the different cultures, there's a greater risk you'll offend one of them than if you just don't pick any. :D

E20

05-04-2009, 08:22 PM

who are you in your finite mind to say what a BS question is and isn't?

there are some philosophical hypotheticals that arise from certain tenets of the Christian faith.

If you don't want to answer them, great, but I can show the Christian faith itself to be more BS than than the questions I and others are asking.

Because my finite mind can understand that I shouldn't don't bother wasting my time trying to think what an infinite being, God, is thinking and what his motives or why is he thinking what he's thinking because my finite mind wouldn't be able to come to a conclusion on what an infinite beings motives are and asking questions regarding that topic is BS and a waste of time. It's like trying to explain the concept of infinity - you can't. Damn that was a phat ass run on.

It's all pretty simple and you're just overcomplicating things to get a ruse out of people.

I Love Me Some Me

05-04-2009, 09:40 PM

So do you think it's moral/acceptable to allow your child to be stoned to death?

Of course not....but we are not living in Old Testament times. I do think my child should be subject to the laws of the land and to the consequences for breaking those laws.

Phenomanul

05-04-2009, 09:59 PM

You are aware that many other cultures say THEIR God is the only true God as well. When you add up all the different cultures, there's a greater risk you'll offend one of them than if you just don't pick any. :D

Not from our perspective...

What I meant to say in my response was that (I didn't make it clear enough)...

Giving mankind free-will was a 'risk vs. reward' proposition from GOD's point of view.

The Risk was that we wouldn't love Him...
The Reward was that we would, out of our own volition...

MiamiHeat

05-05-2009, 01:36 AM

Phenomanul is just trolling.

Nobody could seriously believe the Christian Church didn't supress science and actually 'heralded' it's progress

It's so ridiculous of a claim that it's not even worth acknowledging. It's like claiming that Germany won World War 2. It's a complete revision of history, a shameless one.

MiamiHeat

05-05-2009, 01:39 AM

Of course not....but we are not living in Old Testament times.

So you choose to ignore those laws because you don't live in those times?

You don't live in New Testament times either. That was 2,000+ years ago.

Yeah, you ignore the Old Testament and try to brush it off as 'old' because you know it's horrifying.

If your God made those laws to begin with, then realized they were harsh and unjust and lunacy, so he had to 'change' his philosophy....

then I guess he isn't really a God now is he.

i am truly done arguing this way. I don't know if some of these 'christians' are just trolling or are just stupid.

I usually just stick to the facts, of which Christians run away from.

baseline bum

05-05-2009, 01:52 AM

Because my finite mind can understand that I shouldn't don't bother wasting my time trying to think what an infinite being, God, is thinking and what his motives or why is he thinking what he's thinking because my finite mind wouldn't be able to come to a conclusion on what an infinite beings motives are and asking questions regarding that topic is BS and a waste of time. It's like trying to explain the concept of infinity - you can't. Damn that was a phat ass run on.

It's all pretty simple and you're just overcomplicating things to get a ruse out of people.

Quick question: what makes a god infinite? What does infinite mean in the context you're using it in?

E20

05-05-2009, 02:13 AM

Quick question: what makes a god infinite? What does infinite mean in the context you're using it in?

It's hard to explain. I remember my math professor saying we can't explain infinite, but we use it to explain if a series or limit approaches a certain value.

The context I'm using it in is that God has always existed and will never cease to exist, his thought process and motives are way beyond the human scope of understanding, just like how infinity is. We wouldn't truly know his reasoning for doing such things, because we can never concieve an entity of infinite porportions.

For example if he made Adam to enjoy life in paradise, but he knew beforehand that Adam would eat the apple, then why did he make Adam? It wouldn't make sense for it to do that, was it to put us through this test? Or was it trying to show his might? Who knows? I don't understand why god would purposely set up adam to fail; samething with Satan, if Satan was the holiest and most pious of all the entities in God's court, why would God turn him into an outcast? Why did Satan deserve such a fate? If I knew those things or if anybody else did then they would know more than the biblical prophets that God supposdely sent and that would put them on par with God.

Also I'd like to think of God as sort of similar to the fact that scientists say that the universe is 13 billion years old and according to the law of conservation of mass and energy the universe should have the same mass/matter and energy it has now compared to 13 billion years ago and should never change, so if we infer that mass/energy is constant and never truly changes then that means the universe is infinitley old and has always existed and will never cease to exist, because in one form or another the universe will be apparent in some form of matter or energy. [ long useless rant]

MiamiHeat

05-05-2009, 03:03 AM

E20,

you are wasting your brain power trying to figure it out.

It isn't real. It's a story, a fairy tale that copied/borrowed many things from other religions..... and was extremely successful in killing off all other religions in brutal campaigns to force everyone to believe in this particular fairy tale.

LnGrrrR

05-05-2009, 07:23 AM

Of course not....but we are not living in Old Testament times. I do think my child should be subject to the laws of the land and to the consequences for breaking those laws.

So, some laws/punishments that God/the Bible provided are no longer acceptable?

exstatic

05-05-2009, 07:32 AM

I don't see how anyone alive and sentient between, say, January 2001 and January 2009 can say that Christianity is anything BUT anti-science.

I Love Me Some Me

05-05-2009, 08:20 AM

So, some laws/punishments that God/the Bible provided are no longer acceptable?

You need to have an understanding of the importance of Jesus...in Acts we are told "by Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed bt the law of Moses."

The covenant God established with Israel was good until the Messiah came. Jesus' arrived to establish a new covenant with God's people, and taught us to obey the spirit of Old Testament law, not the letter of the law.

So, to answer your question, the laws still exist (although our understanding of their intent was clarified through Jesus) but the punishments are forgiven.

I Love Me Some Me

05-05-2009, 08:23 AM

I don't see how anyone alive and sentient between, say, January 2001 and January 2009 can say that Christianity is anything BUT anti-science.

Why that timeframe?

Blake

05-05-2009, 08:47 AM

Any source that argues one point or the other is going to be biased. That doesn't make it any less true.

then use a non-atheist/non-christian source that doesn't try to argue one point over another. It's really not hard to do.

there are several theories as to why the library burned down, the most common being that Julius Ceasar did so by accident.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9

Blake

05-05-2009, 09:08 AM

Your example does not follow the Scripture. God did not send 20 people down with His plan. God sent His One and Only Son Jesus, who clearly outlined the way for man to return to right standing with God.

:lol Youre comparing Pop to God and you say my example doesn't work?

We can actually see and document Pop talking to Tim and Tony in the huddle.

In the real world, if God exists, then he coaches from way upstairs and the players never physically see or hear him coach....

..and the assistant coaches try to decipher the plays that God sent in from his suite.

Walk into any Christian bookstore and there might be 20 different translations of the Bible.

Why? Which version is the most correct version?

Blake

05-05-2009, 09:21 AM

Blake

05-05-2009, 09:26 AM

Because my finite mind can understand that I shouldn't don't bother wasting my time trying to think what an infinite being, God, is thinking and what his motives or why is he thinking what he's thinking because my finite mind wouldn't be able to come to a conclusion on what an infinite beings motives are and asking questions regarding that topic is BS and a waste of time. It's like trying to explain the concept of infinity - you can't. Damn that was a phat ass run on.

It's all pretty simple and you're just overcomplicating things to get a ruse out of people.

not really. There are inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible and I'm personally looking for answers.

If you choose to not bother with contradictions and inconsistencies and just chalk it up to God being God, then good for you, move along.

Blake

05-05-2009, 09:35 AM

Even before 'the fall' Adam and Eve weren't impervious to sin... Yeah, they were sinless... but sin existed simply because Lucifer and his minions existed... and because GOD didn't restrict earth-access to them. It was the serpent (Lucifer) that introduced Adam and Eve to sin - to his miserable curse...

got that.

I'm not entirely sure we will have the capability of sinning once "sin has been defeated once and for all"... Without such a powerful force in Heaven, who or what would be a driver for sin to ever resurface???

so how did Lucifer sin in Heaven?

That phrase could also imply that we will have no memory of sin altogether... Who knows - the Bible isn't explicitly detailed on the nature of our eternal activities (considering it would likely take an infinitely sized book to capture it all)....

so God erases our memory?

I don't need a infinitely sized book about what heaven will be like. A chapter in one of the books of the Bible with something other than "we get to be with Jesus" would suffice.

Maybe our glorified bodies will be incapable of 'tempting' and betraying our minds... We will not hunger because we will always feel satiated... we will not lust because we will feel the euphoria of sustaining an eternal "orgasm" or something even greater... :wow We will not feel compeled to hoard treasures because everything and anything imaginable will be at our disposal in our Father's 'mansion'... We will not feel hatred, anger or sadness because we will constantly be overwhelmed with the Joy and the Peace of the LORD's presence. Although I admit, there's a great deal of speculation in what I just wrote... "Free-will," however, will likely not be my number one 'concern' while there...

if Heaven is the same in the future as it was at the beginning of time, then the same jealousy that got Lucifer thrown out will still exist.

We will obviously not have the power that God has. We apparently will not even have the same kind of access to things that angels have. Therefore, it stands to reason that envy should still be a possibility.

My number one 'concern' is eternal boredom. :lol

Blake

05-05-2009, 09:37 AM

Not from our perspective...

What I meant to say in my response was that (I didn't make it clear enough)...

Giving mankind free-will was a 'risk vs. reward' proposition from GOD's point of view.

The Risk was that we wouldn't love Him...
The Reward was that we would, out of our own volition...

so free will is gone when we reach Heaven.

Blake

05-05-2009, 09:44 AM

So, some laws/punishments that God/the Bible provided are no longer acceptable?

it's either all or nothing.

when religious people argue against homosexuality and try to use OT verses and laws, they fail.

Blake

05-05-2009, 09:46 AM

So, to answer your question, the laws still exist (although our understanding of their intent was clarified through Jesus) but the punishments are forgiven.

really? all the laws exist? it's not hard to rattle off some of the crazy laws of the OT.

I Love Me Some Me

05-05-2009, 10:04 AM

really? all the laws exist? it's not hard to rattle off some of the crazy laws of the OT.

I'm your huckleberry.

z0sa

05-05-2009, 10:11 AM

this may be one of the dumbest questions I have ever read and will ever read in my entire life and my eventually eternal damnation.

that's impossible, considering it wasn't a question.
hey, allah and jesus are bullshit and have been for 1500 years, right?
but scientists still basing their research off a 150 year old theory is nothing to scoff about, huh?

wait, what is a theory? do christians have this theory that if you believe in jesus, you will go to heaven when you die?

you don't have to be religious to be a blind follower still.

Blake

05-05-2009, 10:16 AM

I'm your huckleberry.

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material," Lev. 19:19

"A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing," Deut. 22:5

"Suppose a man enters into marriage with a woman, but she does not please him because he finds something objectionable about her, and so he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house; she then leaves his house and goes off to become another man’s wife." Deut. 24:1-2

Ive got more......just ask.

Blake

05-05-2009, 10:17 AM

that's impossible, considering it wasn't a question.
hey, allah and jesus are bullshit and have been for 1500 years, right?
but scientists still basing their research off a 150 year old theory is nothing to scoff about, huh?

wait, what is a theory? do christians have this theory that if you believe in jesus, you will go to heaven when you die?

you don't have to be religious to be a blind follower still.

are you seriously trying to compare a scientific theory to a religious theory?

E20

05-05-2009, 10:19 AM

not really. There are inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible and I'm personally looking for answers.

If you choose to not bother with contradictions and inconsistencies and just chalk it up to God being God, then good for you, move along.

Too bad I'm not Christian and I don't care about the inconstiences/contradictions in the bible (I've heard there are contradicitions, but I've never bothered to look for them), but I'm sure if you ask a biblical scholar rather than some internet posters you would get an answer from an authorative source who has some background in the field. So if you're personally looking for answers start there lol not at a spurs message board.

z0sa

05-05-2009, 10:22 AM

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material," Lev. 19:19

Leviticus was written by the rabbi/priesthood about the many laws concerning worshipping the Lord - I'm 90% sure this only applies to the priesthood.

"A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing," Deut. 22:5

The verse is subjective. A woman wearing pants isn't considered to be wearing a man's clothing nowadays, for example.

"Suppose a man enters into marriage with a woman, but she does not please him because he finds something objectionable about her, and so he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house; she then leaves his house and goes off to become another man’s wife." Deut. 24:1-2

:huh this is life today, except the govt's law plays its role due to legalities and taxes - which is ordained in the NT (to follow the rules of your govt and your leaders, as long as it doesn't go against God's law)

z0sa

05-05-2009, 10:23 AM

are you seriously trying to compare a scientific theory to a religious theory?

they both feed you bullshit, whether you want to accept it or not.

Blake

05-05-2009, 10:28 AM

Too bad I'm not Christian and I don't care about the inconstiences/contradictions in the bible (I've heard their are contradicitions, but I've never bothered to look for them),

you don't care enough to take the time to post in this thread and make your opinion known. good job.

but I'm sure if you ask a biblical scholar rather than some internet posters you would get an answer from an authorative source who has some background in the field. So if you're personally looking for answers start there lol not at a spurs message board.

No, this is my universal source for information.

You're assuming that I haven't talked to anyone outside of the internet and you are assuming that posters on this board have no background in the field.

I'll assume you're a moron.

Blake

05-05-2009, 10:29 AM

they both feed you bullshit, whether you want to accept it or not.

wow.

you are a officially a moron.

DarkReign

05-05-2009, 10:31 AM

http://qmusings.com/images/EnergizerBunny.gif

Blake

05-05-2009, 10:33 AM

Leviticus was written by the rabbi/priesthood about the many laws concerning worshipping the Lord - I'm 90% sure this only applies to the priesthood.

so rabbis/priests today adhere to this law?

The verse is subjective. A woman wearing pants isn't considered to be wearing a man's clothing nowadays, for example.

women never wear men's t-shirts?

It sucks that Bible verses are subjective.

:huh this is life today, except the govt's law plays its role due to legalities and taxes - which is ordained in the NT (to follow the rules of your govt and your leaders, as long as it doesn't go against God's law)

so a man divorcing his wife for whatever reason he wants is ok?

..and does the same law apply for a woman wishing to divorce her husband?

E20

05-05-2009, 10:33 AM

you don't care enough to take the time to post in this thread and make your opinion known. good job.

No, this is my universal source for information.

You're assuming that I haven't talked to anyone outside of the internet and you are assuming that posters on this board have no background in the field.

I'll assume you're a moron.

I cared enough about the subject of God, not a particluar religon, to make my opnion known. good job on infering something wrong. moron

You can tell if posters are adept at scripture and know the history and context of christian texts and theology to a degree matched by scholars? lol

Don't go looking for grade A answers on a sports message board. lol

z0sa

05-05-2009, 10:34 AM

wow.

you are a officially a moron.

:sleep yeah okay :

No, this is my universal source for information.

you're a moron by your own confession. Everyone knows you're only trolling this thread.

Blake

05-05-2009, 10:34 AM

E20

05-05-2009, 10:39 AM

z0sa

05-05-2009, 10:41 AM

so rabbis/priests today adhere to this law?

Rabbis undoubtedly adhere to the laws in the Torah.

women never wear men's t-shirts?

Who was ever to say a t-shirt is only a man's clothing? In the Victorian Age, yes it'd have been a sin. When men (not holy men, just people overall whatever their beliefs) decided they wouldn't browbeat their women for wearing shirts and pants instead of dresses, it happened. The Bible is simply clarifying what is appropriate to be worn, the opposite of actually controlling what we wear.

It sucks that Bible verses are subjective.

That (the bible being subjective) is the entire reason it still holds great meaning today as it did then - and why it affects so many people in so many different ways.

so a man divorcing his wife for whatever reason he wants is ok?

Yes.

..and does the same law apply for a woman wishing to divorce her husband?

Again, in the NT, Paul wrote that we must abide by the laws of our country, because God has put them into place (the leader of the country and its lawmakers), so long as they don't go against the will of God.

In the USA, a woman is given the same rights as a man, thus yes, you are correct.

In biblical times, it was not necessary for a wife to divorce her husband - the husband was required by God to care for her regardless of problems within the marriage, unless he divorced her.

z0sa

05-05-2009, 10:42 AM

If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid. (Deut. 21:18-21)

already answered, and easily done so.

just because you refuse to believe it is just, well that's your problem. Humans are not just, nor moral, by nature. Only God is just.

And again, its up to the parents to take their OWN child, to the city gates, and ask them to be stoned. It has little to do with God's "wishes" concerning the situation, and everything to do with pushing your parents over the edge by breaking the Law of the country over and over.

They say no parent would throw their child into a furnace, how often do you think this happened? just about never:

"So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid."

If this was even remotely common, why would all of Israel hear about it, then be afraid for their own children? It was simply another abstract instruction/example concerning the Ten Commandments, the basis of all law in Israel which must NEVER be broken.

angel_luv

05-05-2009, 10:45 AM

:lol Youre comparing Pop to God and you say my example doesn't work?

We can actually see and document Pop talking to Tim and Tony in the huddle.

In the real world, if God exists, then he coaches from way upstairs and the players never physically see or hear him coach....

..and the assistant coaches try to decipher the plays that God sent in from his suite.

Walk into any Christian bookstore and there might be 20 different translations of the Bible.

Why? Which version is the most correct version?

The difference in our perspective is that you feel that God is far off whereas I know him to be a personal, always present, and extremely loving Savior, Friend, and Father.

Yes there are many different wordings of the Bible such as the New International Version, The King James Version, the New Living Translations.

The different versions are not meant to contradict the original version but rather to phrase the original text in ways in which all people can understand.

For example a young person would find the New International Version easier to read and comprehend than the King James Version, because the New International Version phrases things in today's English.

See for example

John 3:16-21 ( KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God

John 3:16-21 ( NIV)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

z0sa

05-05-2009, 10:50 AM

The King James Version is the word of the Lord, down to the last sentence. Research it and find out for yourself (at least, that its the best version we have 1400 years after they were written - there's actually plenty of evidence supporting the fact they are the exact same books as written originally)

Many other versions rephrase certain things differently than what is translated in the KJV.

Blake

05-05-2009, 11:07 AM

Too bad I'm not Christian and I don't care about the inconstiences/contradictions in the bible (I've heard there are contradicitions, but I've never bothered to look for them), but I'm sure if you ask a biblical scholar rather than some internet posters you would get an answer from an authorative source who has some background in the field. So if you're personally looking for answers start there lol not at a spurs message board.

Keep on assuming that my questions and answers start and end at a spurs message board.

you also don't care and never bothered to look for inconsistencies, but you think the questions that are brought up about them are BS..

....and you are still here.

you are a moron.

Blake

05-05-2009, 11:17 AM

Rabbis undoubtedly adhere to the laws in the Torah.

I have no doubt they do.

Too bad the rabbi is going to hell, while the preacher at the local Christian church with the Rolex on his wrist is going to heaven.

Who was ever to say a t-shirt is only a man's clothing? In the Victorian Age, yes it'd have been a sin. When men (not holy men, just people overall whatever their beliefs) decided they wouldn't browbeat their women for wearing shirts and pants instead of dresses, it happened. The Bible is simply clarifying what is appropriate to be worn, the opposite of actually controlling what we wear.

So according to you, society, not God dictates what the sin is in regards to clothing.

That (the bible being subjective) is the entire reason it still holds great meaning today as it did then - and why it affects so many people in so many different ways.

and why it has split apart so many people into many different directions and religions.

Yes.

most southern Baptists I know would disagree with you.

Again, in the NT, Paul wrote that we must abide by the laws of our country, because God has put them into place (the leader of the country and its lawmakers), so long as they don't go against the will of God.

In the USA, a woman is given the same rights as a man, thus yes, you are correct.

In biblical times, it was not necessary for a wife to divorce her husband - the husband was required by God to care for her regardless of problems within the marriage, unless he divorced her.

so the law of the land supercedes God's law.

z0sa

05-05-2009, 11:39 AM

I have no doubt they do.

Too bad the rabbi is going to hell, while the preacher at the local Christian church with the Rolex on his wrist is going to heaven.

Priests and rabbis still wear a "single woven cloth" gown over themselves to follow this instruction. It was primarily made to distinguish the holy men in case someone needed help (and to signify their connection with God).

So according to you, society, not God dictates what the sin is in regards to clothing.

Are you stupid, or just playing stupid? Both women and men wore "dresses" (skins or cloths hanging over the whole body) in the biblical times, yet only women wore dresses in the Victorian age. Times change, and God knew they would as humans increased in knowledge and population.

and why it has split apart so many people into many different directions and religions.

More like adaptations of the same religion. There are different religions who recognize the bible as a holy book, but not as Christians do - the ONLY holy book.

most southern Baptists I know would disagree with you.

Are you southern baptist?

so the law of the land supercedes God's law.

Never.

Blake

05-05-2009, 11:44 AM

The difference in our perspective is that you feel that God is far off whereas I know him to be a personal, always present, and extremely loving Savior, Friend, and Father.

no, the difference is that I have seen Pop on TV.

Yes there are many different wordings of the Bible such as the New International Version, The King James Version, the New Living Translations.

The different versions are not meant to contradict the original version but rather to phrase the original text in ways in which all people can understand.

For example a young person would find the New International Version easier to read and comprehend than the King James Version, because the New International Version phrases things in today's English.

See for example

and yet the different versions end up changing contexts based on subjective views of what the original text is saying.

See for example:

1 Corinthians 6:9 (New International Version)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

1 Corinthians 6:9 (King James Version)

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

z0sa

05-05-2009, 11:46 AM

and yet the different versions end up changing contexts based on subjective views of what the original text is saying.

See for example:

you're very much wrong, they don't write their own versions based off the KJV, they have their own translators of ancient scripture for every version.

The context isn't "changed" onceosever. Like I said, only some things are rephrased differently - which, although not "changing the context," changes the message I think we were intended to perceive (this does sometimes have to do with shitty or purposely misleading translations). When I read the bible, I always read the KJV.

angel_luv

05-05-2009, 11:54 AM

no, the difference is that I have seen Pop on TV.

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. "
(Hebrews 11:1-2)

and yet the different versions end up changing contexts based on subjective views of what the original text is saying.

See for example:

The point and context of both verses is the same and is plainly stated in both, though worded slightly differently:

The wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God ( NIV)

The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ( KJV)

What is your confusion?

Blake

05-05-2009, 12:08 PM

Priests and rabbis still wear a "single woven cloth" gown over themselves to follow this instruction. It was primarily made to distinguish the holy men in case someone needed help (and to signify their connection with God).

right. and rabbis still will go to hell while the preacher with the rolex goes to heaven.

Are you stupid, or just playing stupid? Both women and men wore "dresses" (skins or cloths hanging over the whole body) in the biblical times, yet only women wore dresses in the Victorian age. Times change, and God knew they would as humans increased in knowledge and population.

true or false: a woman with a flat top and sideburns wearing guy's jeans is a sin.

More like adaptations of the same religion. There are different religions who recognize the bible as a holy book, but not as Christians do - the ONLY holy book.

the only holy book with a bunch of different versions.

Are you southern baptist?

does it matter to this conversation?

if you need it, it's really not hard to look up a reference on the internet to Baptists believing that divorce = sin.

Never.

so when it says to take your kids out into the street and have them stoned, then that supercedes the law of the US?

great.

LnGrrrR

05-05-2009, 12:16 PM

You need to have an understanding of the importance of Jesus...in Acts we are told "by Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed bt the law of Moses."

The covenant God established with Israel was good until the Messiah came. Jesus' arrived to establish a new covenant with God's people, and taught us to obey the spirit of Old Testament law, not the letter of the law.

So, to answer your question, the laws still exist (although our understanding of their intent was clarified through Jesus) but the punishments are forgiven.

Ok, let's not throw gobbledygook into this.

If you are a Bible literalist, it obviously supports stoning children, and so obviously God supports stoning children, or did at one time.

Are you saying that his decree that children should be stoned is no longer valid until Jesus/NT came about?

If so, are there possibly OTHER OT laws/punishments that are no longer valid?

LnGrrrR

05-05-2009, 12:17 PM

z0sa

05-05-2009, 12:18 PM

right. and rabbis still will go to hell while the preacher with the rolex goes to heaven.

You don't understand why this is going to happen - why the Jewish people are accountable for not believing in the messiah God promised them throughout the OT?

true or false: a woman with a flat top and sideburns wearing guy's jeans is a sin.

Sideburns? It's hella unattractive, but no, this is not a sin. Guy's jeans? Like her husband's? Why wouldn't she wear her own clothes?

the only holy book with a bunch of different versions.

you just don't know what you're talking about.

does it matter to this conversation?

Yes, why bring up beliefs of a sect of christianity you know nothing about?

if you need it, it's really not hard to look up a reference on the internet to Baptists believing that divorce = sin.

the burder of proof is on you, first of all, if you feel like actually making a point.

second, divorce is considered a sin, but people cannot live with eachother. God forgives, friend.

so when it says to take your kids out into the street and have them stoned, then that supercedes the law of the US?

great.

Is the USA's head of state God?

Are there city walls or gates, or an elder to call the men together for this stoning? Where are the huge rocks they stoned with? It was not just tossing pebbles at eachother, they crushed your head in with a stone to make it quick.

LnGrrrR

05-05-2009, 12:19 PM

Zosa,

What makes YOUR belief that your holy book is the correct one any better than the beliefs of those who follow OTHER religions?

Blake

05-05-2009, 12:19 PM

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. "
(Hebrews 11:1-2)

I don't need faith to believe in Pop's existence.

The point and context of both verses is the same and is plainly stated in both, though worded slightly differently:

The wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God ( NIV)

The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ( KJV)

What is your confusion?

I'm not confused.

The word "homosexual" is a relatively recent term and is a jump to make that conclusion from the original text, much less from the KJV.

LnGrrrR

05-05-2009, 12:20 PM

On another note,

Do any of the Christians here believe in Calvinism? Could any of them prove it wasn't true/correct? :)

z0sa

05-05-2009, 12:25 PM

So God supports stoning. Thanks! :tu

Does the president of the USA support putting criminals behind bars? Yes, it is the law of the country.

God's Law says if you break the ten commandments, it can be punishable by death (and God rules Israel). Don't. Break. The. Ten. Commandments. God meant it when he made them.

z0sa

05-05-2009, 12:29 PM

I'm not confused.

The word "homosexual" is a relatively recent term and is a jump to make that conclusion from the original text, much less from the KJV.

This really tells the informed, how little your knowledge is on the current subject.

Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed by God because of homosexuality (and many other immoral practices, but homosexuality is highlighted including a story concerning Lot). The KJV translators didn't have the word homosexual, because they were not tolerated like in today's world - they were simply a part of the sexually immoral. Even a little research will field this knowledge, and by you claiming the Biblical scholars have translated the ancient texts wrong, you make quite a fallacious statement.

The NIV is written using today's language and grammar, so we can read it without knowing the lingo of the 15th/16th centuries. It is still a direct translation from the ancient texts, which undoubtedly implied homosexuality with their wordings. Its not hard to do a little research, then again, SpursTalk is your hub for all knowledge so ...

LnGrrrR

05-05-2009, 12:33 PM

Does the president of the USA support putting criminals behind bars? Yes, it is the law of the country.

God's Law says if you break the ten commandments, it can be punishable by death (and God rules Israel). Don't. Break. The. Ten. Commandments. God meant it when he made them.

So stoning=jail. Understood! :tu

God didn't just say death, he said stoning.

Why does that upset you so much? Just say, "Yeah, God was ok with people being stoned to death, even children."

Also, I like how you like equate the President with God. Yes, because the President is limited by law in the same way that God is limited by... uhm... his own laws. :)

z0sa

05-05-2009, 12:33 PM

Zosa,

What makes YOUR belief that your holy book is the correct one any better than the beliefs of those who follow OTHER religions?

it isn't, or doesn't, whatever you want to say. why do you ask?

angel_luv

05-05-2009, 12:37 PM

I don't need faith to believe in Pop's existence.

That was not the point. :)

I'm not confused.

The word "homosexual" is a relatively recent term and is a jump to make that conclusion from the original text, much less from the KJV.

The term may be new but the practice is referenced in the Old Testament.
Men in Sodom wanted to have sexual relations with Lot's angelic guests
( Genesis 19: 4-9)

Lot was no hero- let me make that clear.
First, Lot chose to move to Sodom for financial gain even though it was known that ungodliness was prevelent there ( Genesis 13:10-13).
Then though Lot did well to try to protect the angels, he failed to protect his own daughters- instead offered them to appease the men. ( Genesis 19: 8).

The men of Sodom were so insistant and wicked that Lot's family had to be defended by the Angels. (Genesis 19:9-11)

Genesis 13:10-13

And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.

Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.

Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.

But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

Genesis 19- 1-11

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

z0sa

05-05-2009, 12:40 PM

So stoning=jail. Understood! :tu

it was an analogy, not a great one, but the reasoning behind this death penalty is clear: don't break the ten commandments, they're that important.

God didn't just say death, he said stoning.

Are you attempting to make a point, or will you just keep asking questions and shooting down my answers? Make your point and be done, or make your intentions known.

Why does that upset you so much?

What exactly do you think has upset me?

Just say, "Yeah, God was ok with people being stoned to death, even children."

Innocent children would never have been stoned to death. You're taking this out of context - the verse isn't even speaking of a child or even a teenager, but a drunkard glutton still living in his parents' home and dishonoring them. You keep ignoring my responses, I don't know what else to say as I've already answered this question for you numerous times. It's just not good enough for you, I understand, but that doesn't mean the answer is going to change.

Also, I like how you like equate the President with God. Yes, because the President is limited by law in the same way that God is limited by... uhm... his own laws. :)

Israel was a theocracy, look it up.