Atheism on the rise in every single US state.

[LnGrrrR]

it isn't, or doesn't, whatever you want to say. why do you ask?

So you're cool with me believing some other religion, as long as it has one god in it? :D

[z0sa]

So you're cool with me believing some other religion, as long as it has one god in it? :D

I never wanted you to do anything but believe (or not) in what you want.

[LnGrrrR]

Zosa,

My point is, in America today, we do not stone people. EVEN IF they're drunk, a glutton, and they live at home, and they're jerks to their parents. Heck, we don't do that even if they shoot or rob someone.

Are you saying that God only said he was ok with stoning because that was the punishment of the time?

Why didn't God say, "Hey, don't stone people!"

You can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is literal, and God is saying it's OK to stone people to death for breaking his laws, or the Bible ISN'T literal, and it's some sort of analogy/parable.

There's many other views that God does not denounce in the Bible as well, such as slavery.

[LnGrrrR]

I never wanted you to do anything but believe (or not) in what you want.

My point is, how am I, or anyone, supposed to know which is the 'right' book to follow? We go off of how we were raised, or instinct, or feeling. But religious belief is always grounded in UNPROVABLE faith.

If one does not have this unprovable faith, then how does one go about obtaining it?

[I Love Me Some Me]

Ok, let's not throw gobbledygook into this.

If you are a Bible literalist, it obviously supports stoning children, and so obviously God supports stoning children, or did at one time.

Are you saying that his decree that children should be stoned is no longer valid until Jesus/NT came about?

If so, are there possibly OTHER OT laws/punishments that are no longer valid?

What makes it gobbleygook? If you want me to explain it in simpler terms, I can try.

You need to seperate the law from the punishment. The law (against drunkenness and rebellion) still stands, but the punishment (stoning) no longer exists.

[z0sa]

Zosa,

My point is, in America today, we do not stone people. EVEN IF they're drunk, a glutton, and they live at home, and they're jerks to their parents. Heck, we don't do that even if they shoot or rob someone.

That's America, a human country with human laws in a humanistic, immoral, modern and godless society.

Then, God was the "president", AND the Lawmaker. His will be done.


Are you saying that God only said he was ok with stoning because that was the punishment of the time?

No - though you still executions in today's world all the time.


Why didn't God say, "Hey, don't stone people!"

I could write a 2000 word essay with that reworded as the thesis. The truth is, God's law is God's law - it was extremely important to the Israelites that they not break it. Again, God set the standard, but people must adhere to it. The parents were the only ones who could bring their "child" (i really want to the know the actual hebrew now, to see if it implies son/daughter and not young kid as I presume) to the gates and ask the elder to gather up men for the execution.


You can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is literal, and God is saying it's OK to stone people to death for breaking his laws, or the Bible ISN'T literal, and it's some sort of analogy/parable.

Fine, you want the "admittance" though I would believe you already had it initially. YES, God commands the death penalty for those who break his commandments continually. But again, IT IS UP TO THE PARENTS in this case as to whether or not their child is truly worthy of execution. How many parents pulled the execution card, do you think? :wakeup



to reiterate, stoning in ancient israel usually involved someone who knew they fucked up and would not resist, getting their head crushed in rather quickly and decisively. Not throwing pebbles and breaking bone after bone to cause misery and suffering.


There's many other views that God does not denounce in the Bible as well, such as slavery.

There are Laws in the Bible protecting Israeli slaves + requiring their owners to care, feed, and house them - and even laws freeing them from slavery should they ever be wronged. Basically, your minimum wage workers of today, only called "slaves." Hell, they would have their own housing to stay in (required), sufficient food and drink (required), and were treated as equal humans (not equals, but equal humans, required) by their owners, with no cost to the slave.

[z0sa]

My point is, how am I, or anyone, supposed to know which is the 'right' book to follow? We go off of how we were raised, or instinct, or feeling. But religious belief is always grounded in UNPROVABLE faith.

If one does not have this unprovable faith, then how does one go about obtaining it?

i can't answer this question, yet I know Someone who can. It's up to you to find that Someone.

You might say "fuck that, its all bs." What assurance I can give you is this: I, too, was an atheist - and nothing could have changed that, except God.

[Phenomanul]

Phenomanul is just trolling.

Nobody could seriously believe the Christian Church didn't supress science and actually 'heralded' it's progress

It's so ridiculous of a claim that it's not even worth acknowledging. It's like claiming that Germany won World War 2. It's a complete revision of history, a shameless one.

MiamiHeat is just trolling.

Anyone with a history book can see for themselves that Christian ideals inspired the great minds of the Enlightenment to accomplish what no other culture or tradition could. The Scientific movement took a significant leap when people in the caliber of Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler, Boyle, Pasteur, Maxwell and Planck took the reigns of their respective fields well beyond the understanding of their time... They sought to decipher GOD's mysteries, and GOD revealed His language to them...

A counterclaim is so ridiculous a notion that it's not even worth acknowledging. It's like claiming that Germany won World War II. It's a complete revision of history, a shameless one.

[j-6]

For what it's worth, I wonder if true atheism is up, or if more and more people are just becoming apathetic toward religion in general. Personally I just don't care one way or another - I'd rather be a good husband and neighbor then spend my time worrying about if I'm damned or not.

[Blake]

you're very much wrong, they don't write their own versions based off the KJV, they have their own translators of ancient scripture for every version.

when I said "original text" that's what I meant.


The context isn't "changed" onceosever. Like I said, only some things are rephrased differently - which, although not "changing the context," changes the message I think we were intended to perceive (this does sometimes have to do with shitty or purposely misleading translations). When I read the bible, I always read the KJV.



so it was the devil's idea to have different translations or did God allow each person to have his/her own tastes in Scripture?

[Phenomanul]

got that.

so how did Lucifer sin in Heaven?
Hey... there's a first time for everything... GOD will crush sin for good. After that... it will no longer exist...




so God erases our memory?
Not necessarily, hopefully He would simply erase any memory of you. :downspin:

Seriously though... we would be incapable of acting on a sinful nature that was no longer there... If you felt compeled to sin, that would likely mean you hadn't 'buried' and relinquished that nature to begin with... You probably would not be there...



I don't need a infinitely sized book about what heaven will be like. A chapter in one of the books of the Bible with something other than "we get to be with Jesus" would suffice.
But if you understood who Jesus really was then that alone should suffice.



if Heaven is the same in the future as it was at the beginning of time, then the same jealousy that got Lucifer thrown out will still exist.

That's where your assumption is off base... Heaven after sin has been ''eternally'' defeated, will not be the same Heaven that existed before Lucifer's rebellion.



We will obviously not have the power that God has. We apparently will not even have the same kind of access to things that angels have. Therefore, it stands to reason that envy should still be a possibility.

My number one 'concern' is eternal boredom. :lol

We will be given a place above the angels in Heaven... not beneath them.

[Blake]

You don't understand why this is going to happen - why the Jewish people are accountable for not believing in the messiah God promised them throughout the OT?

I understand it clearly.

B.C. Jews go to Heaven
A.D. Jews go to Hell.

It's one of the many problems I have with Christianity.


Sideburns? It's hella unattractive, but no, this is not a sin. Guy's jeans? Like her husband's? Why wouldn't she wear her own clothes?

you think cross dressing is not a sin?

you really don't talk to many religious people, do you......

I bet Angel-Luv thinks it's a sin.


you just don't know what you're talking about.

There are different versions of the Bible. I thought that was common knowledge.

Is the burden of proof on me to show you that too?


Yes, why bring up beliefs of a sect of christianity you know nothing about?

the burder of proof is on you, first of all, if you feel like actually making a point.

second, divorce is considered a sin, but people cannot live with eachother. God forgives, friend.

I said something along the lines of "southern baptists I know think it's a sin."

Since you agree with that, then what is your point? You want me to prove that I know some southern baptists?

regardless, here's a link:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/Divorce-8.htm

The point is that divorce is a sin to southern baptists and to you, even though the OT clearly states that a man needs very little reason to divorce his wife.

God's forgiveness reaches it's limit when you die, friend.


Is the USA's head of state God?

Are there city walls or gates, or an elder to call the men together for this stoning? Where are the huge rocks they stoned with? It was not just tossing pebbles at eachother, they crushed your head in with a stone to make it quick.

I have no idea what your point is with these sidestepping questions.

[ALVAREZ6]

they both feed you bullshit, whether you want to accept it or not.
and it seems people agree, you truly are a moron if you're calling science bullshit.


you are pathetic. I'm glad I wasn't born a brainwashed, retarded clown.

[Blake]

Does the president of the USA support putting criminals behind bars? Yes, it is the law of the country.

God's Law says if you break the ten commandments, it can be punishable by death (and God rules Israel). Don't. Break. The. Ten. Commandments. God meant it when he made them.

does the president of the USA support stoning people to death for being a drunk?

you are reaching moron levels very quickly.

[Blake]

This really tells the informed, how little your knowledge is on the current subject.

Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed by God because of homosexuality (and many other immoral practices, but homosexuality is highlighted including a story concerning Lot). The KJV translators didn't have the word homosexual, because they were not tolerated like in today's world - they were simply a part of the sexually immoral. Even a little research will field this knowledge, and by you claiming the Biblical scholars have translated the ancient texts wrong, you make quite a fallacious statement.

The NIV is written using today's language and grammar, so we can read it without knowing the lingo of the 15th/16th centuries. It is still a direct translation from the ancient texts, which undoubtedly implied homosexuality with their wordings. Its not hard to do a little research, then again, SpursTalk is your hub for all knowledge so ...

honestly, you have no idea what you are talking about.

you are an ignorant moron.

[ALVAREZ6]

For what it's worth, I wonder if true atheism is up, or if more and more people are just becoming apathetic toward religion in general. Personally I just don't care one way or another - I'd rather be a good husband and neighbor then spend my time worrying about if I'm damned or not.
Which is how it should be, people should just focus on being a good member of the community. But whether true atheism is up or not, goes both ways. There's probably a significant percentage of people who would be agnostic or atheist if they were presented with all the arguments from both sides and were forced to reevaluate their true beliefs. I have several friends that are extremely casual Christians, meaning they rarely go to church, rarely to never pray, and don't really think about the situation and cease to truly care about religion, yet when polled or asked, they declare themselves as Christians. This was my previous phase a few years ago until I wasn't in middle school anymore and I realized how retarded shit is. So I think there's tons of people in this country that declare themselves a certain religion, perhaps for tradition or because they don't give a shit, but aren't true followers.

[LnGrrrR]

What makes it gobbleygook? If you want me to explain it in simpler terms, I can try.

You need to seperate the law from the punishment. The law (against drunkenness and rebellion) still stands, but the punishment (stoning) no longer exists.

Great. That's what I meant by gobbledygook :)

So, you're saying some OT punishments no longer apply, though the laws are valid, correct?

Does the same hold true for NT punishments as well?

[JoeChalupa]

Some simply don't understand faith. Done.

[LnGrrrR]

That's America, a human country with human laws in a humanistic, immoral, modern and godless society.

Then, God was the "president", AND the Lawmaker. His will be done.

No - though you still executions in today's world all the time.

There's a difference between executing someone humanely and stoning them to death. I'm sure you can see that.


Fine, you want the "admittance" though I would believe you already had it initially. YES, God commands the death penalty for those who break his commandments continually. But again, IT IS UP TO THE PARENTS in this case as to whether or not their child is truly worthy of execution. How many parents pulled the execution card, do you think? :wakeup

Aren't the parents disobeying God's will then?



to reiterate, stoning in ancient israel usually involved someone who knew they fucked up and would not resist, getting their head crushed in rather quickly and decisively. Not throwing pebbles and breaking bone after bone to cause misery and suffering.

It specifically said "to death" did it not?




There are Laws in the Bible protecting Israeli slaves + requiring their owners to care, feed, and house them - and even laws freeing them from slavery should they ever be wronged. Basically, your minimum wage workers of today, only called "slaves." Hell, they would have their own housing to stay in (required), sufficient food and drink (required), and were treated as equal humans (not equals, but equal humans, required) by their owners, with no cost to the slave.

Agreed that the laws were at least progressive for slaves. However, it did not mean they WEREN'T slaves. They were still slaves, just that they were well-treated.

My point? Why doesn't God seem to be as 'moral' as today's society? If God is ok with slavery, making it moral, why don't we consider it moral, as long as the slave is well-kept?

When it comes down to it, God accepts both slavery and stoning people to death, two things that most societies nowadays would consider immoral. Why do we consider it immoral if God does not?

[LnGrrrR]

i can't answer this question, yet I know Someone who can. It's up to you to find that Someone.

You might say "fuck that, its all bs." What assurance I can give you is this: I, too, was an atheist - and nothing could have changed that, except God.

And that's exactly what I've been saying. NOTHING COULD HAVE CHANGED THAT, EXCEPT GOD.

Yet, you stated earlier that it was MY CHOICE.

Which of the two is correct?

Edit: Additionally, please don't say "God answers everyone who seeks for him" because A) that's not always the case and B) it's offensive to some who have tried and not heard any answer. Not throwing myself in that category, but I've talked with people who have lost faith and some of them are still hurt by it.

[ALVAREZ6]

Some simply don't understand faith. Done.
No, I definitely do, as I've said numerous times before: The only problem I have with it is calling uncertainties....certainties. If people want to believe in god and heaven and hell with strong conviction, I think they should at least keep it humble and realize they could be wrong. What's the point in faith if you guys are just gonna call your beliefs the "truth" ??? That's like me believing I am a human being when I already know for fact that I am one...

[JoeChalupa]

What I don't get is why non-believers think those of us who do have faith are "brain washed" or "believe in story tales" or act like we are somehow stupid simply because we choose to believe. I never push my religion on others and I can't stand it when non-believers push their scientific facts on me. If you don't believe fine.

[JoeChalupa]

No, I definitely do, as I've said numerous times before: The only problem I have with it is calling uncertainties....certainties. If people want to believe in god and heaven and hell with strong conviction, I think they should at least keep it humble and realize they could be wrong. What's the point in faith if you guys are just gonna call your beliefs the "truth" ??? That's like me believing I am a human being when I already know for fact that I am one...

I agree. Just the same as non-believers stating that God doesn't exist as fact or a certainty. It simply cannot be proved either way and that is why it is called faith. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe.
Oh well, these threads are all pretty much the same. Carry on.

[JoeChalupa]

But for me I am certain there is a God. Okay, I'm done.

[ALVAREZ6]

What I don't get is why non-believers think those of us who do have faith are "brain washed" or "believe in story tales" or act like we are somehow stupid simply because we choose to believe. I never push my religion on others and I can't stand it when non-believers push their scientific facts on me. If you don't believe fine.
I don't think you're all stupid or anything, I use the brainwash occasionally for the hell of it. I have no problem with people being religious, as long as it doesn't interfere with general society and our laws. It should be completely private. No one pushed scientific facts on you in the real world...if I saw you wearing a cross on the streets I wouldn't come up to you and share my ideas, not like a preacher spreading his ideas on streets. This is an internet discussion where the topic is atheism and religion, so that's why this is happening....

[ALVAREZ6]

I agree. Just the same as non-believers stating that God doesn't exist as fact or a certainty. It simply cannot be proved either way and that is why it is called faith. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe.
Oh well, these threads are all pretty much the same. Carry on.
Well, most devout christians that I talk to argue to me that it is all truth. God, heaven, hell, 100000% guaranteed certainty. But I never state god definitely does not exist...that's why I don't like referring myself as a true atheist. I really don't know, but I believe the chances of him existing are smaller than those of him not existing because I think there is way more evidence/arguments that he does not exist...at least the christian god.

[Blake]

That was not the point. :)

the point was that you compared God to Pop drawing up a perfect plan for Tim and Tony to run.

my point is that your analogy fails.




The term may be new but the practice is referenced in the Old Testament.
Men in Sodom wanted to have sexual relations with Lot's angelic guests
( Genesis 19: 4-9)



Lot was no hero- let me make that clear.
First, Lot chose to move to Sodom for financial gain even though it was known that ungodliness was prevelent there ( Genesis 13:10-13).
Then though Lot did well to try to protect the angels, he failed to protect his own daughters- instead offered them to appease the men. ( Genesis 19: 8).

The men of Sodom were so insistant and wicked that Lot's family had to be defended by the Angels. (Genesis 19:9-11)

The story of sodom and gomorrah is besides the point. :)

It also a law of the old testament and is therefore irrelevant.

The NIV states that Paul is talking about homosexuality which is something that is not clear in original text. It's a broad assumption.

[j-6]

I'd like to know what attendance looks like in most churches versus five or ten years ago. I know exactly two people my age that go to services with any regularity and they're married to each other. What's the draw? What's the allure? How are these people drawing new sheep into their flocks? In this on-demand society eternal life after death can't be too high on the list.

[LnGrrrR]

What I don't get is why non-believers think those of us who do have faith are "brain washed" or "believe in story tales" or act like we are somehow stupid simply because we choose to believe. I never push my religion on others and I can't stand it when non-believers push their scientific facts on me. If you don't believe fine.

Joe, I can't speak for all non-believers, but I think some atheists get peeved when believers try to use their beliefs to push public policy. That's the thing that annoys me. Plus, everyone gets a little frustrated with people who don't see the world they way they do. :D

[LnGrrrR]

But for me I am certain there is a God. Okay, I'm done.

Oh come on Joe. Not fair to say that you can know there's a God for certain, but that atheists can't know for certain that there isn't one. :)

[E20]

Keep on assuming that my questions and answers start and end at a spurs message board.

you also don't care and never bothered to look for inconsistencies, but you think the questions that are brought up about them are BS..

....and you are still here.

you are a moron.

Once again I care enough about the subject of God and it's existence which is being talked about here as well, I'm not talking about a particluar religon or it's inconsistences, to make my opnion known. good job on infering something wrong again. moron

Also I am not questioning your questions regarding the inconsistencies, a while back in the thread there were childish questions being asked that was bullshit and which couldn't have a real concrete answer that would satisfy the logic of humans.

[LnGrrrR]

Well, most devout christians that I talk to argue to me that it is all truth. God, heaven, hell, 100000% guaranteed certainty. But I never state god definitely does not exist...that's why I don't like referring myself as a true atheist. I really don't know, but I believe the chances of him existing are smaller than those of him not existing because I think there is way more evidence/arguments that he does not exist...at least the christian god.

That makes you an agnostic atheist.

Agnostic - Without Knowledge

Atheist - Without Belief

Agnostic (don't know for certain) atheist (don't believe in anything). :)

[Blake]

Hey... there's a first time for everything... GOD will crush sin for good. After that... it will no longer exist...

and neither will free will.


Not necessarily, hopefully He would simply erase any memory of you. :downspin:

fail


Seriously though... we would be incapable of acting on a sinful nature that was no longer there... If you felt compeled to sin, that would likely mean you hadn't 'buried' and relinquished that nature to begin with... You probably would not be there...

and neither will free will


But if you understood who Jesus really was then that alone should suffice.

I understand who he is. Give me a really good reason why I should want to be with him for eternity.

I'm still waiting for anyone to tell me why/how heaven's good times will be better than earth's good times.


That's where your assumption is off base... Heaven after sin has been ''eternally'' defeated, will not be the same Heaven that existed before Lucifer's rebellion.

source, scripture that says Heaven will be changed.

otherwise, your assumption is off base.

I was really answering ILMSM who already said that Heaven hasn't changed.


We will be given a place above the angels in Heaven... not beneath them.

exactly how will you be above the angels in heaven? source, scripture, please.

unless you can prove that Heaven has changed, angels have the capacity and free will to sin while you do not.

Seems to me that angels are higher in the scheme of things.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

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[Blake]

Once again I care enough about the subject of God and it's existence which is being talked about here as well, I'm not talking about a particluar religon or it's inconsistences, to make my opnion known. good job on infering something wrong again. moron

no, you've made it pretty clear how you think the questions posed here are BS. I can pull it up again if you like.

You are definitely a moron.


Also I am not questioning your questions regarding the inconsistencies, a while back in the thread there were childish questions being asked that was bullshit and which couldn't have a real concrete answer that would satisfy the logic of humans.

A concrete sign from God would satisfy the logic of humans.

Feel free to browse my profile page some more and post more insecure junk.

You are a moron.

[Blake]

Some simply don't understand faith. Done.

Some simply don't understand putting faith in an inconsistent book that talks about a God you can't see.

[Blake]

What I don't get is why non-believers think those of us who do have faith are "brain washed" or "believe in story tales" or act like we are somehow stupid simply because we choose to believe. I never push my religion on others and I can't stand it when non-believers push their scientific facts on me. If you don't believe fine.

I don't get why miamiheat does that either.

[ALVAREZ6]

the only person here worth calling a moron is z0sa, for he calls science bullshit :rolleyes:dizzy:idiot:huh

[E20]

no, you've made it pretty clear how you think the questions posed here are BS. I can pull it up again if you like.

You are definitely a moron.



A concrete sign from God would satisfy the logic of humans.


Yeah I'll bring them up for you:

This is what I said taht was BS:

I do think about my belief system, question it, find answers, and analyze it, but what I was referring to was all the bs questions like:

Why would I want to go heaven and why does god want me there?
Is it free?


All these questions are BS because the answers are already known, asking answers for these types of questions are the equivalent of ridculing the person being asked these questions. Is it free? Oh no it's not free it's 3.29 + tax, lol, why would I want to go to heaven? because i don't feel like going to hell, if this isn't BS then what is?


A concrete sign from God would satisfy the logic of humans.
Yes it would, but we're not talking about a concrete sign from god to satisfy humans of his existence. I was talking about concrete answers to questions that attempt to explain the actions of god. Humans would never really understand God's reasoning, he isn't human and above the human mind, so how can me understand a reasoning of such a superior being?


Feel free to throw more insults around.

[Blake]

Feel free to throw more insults around.

oh good. I thought it was $3.29 + tax

you are a moron.

[E20]

oh good. I thought it was $3.29 + tax

you are a moron.

lol so you deny that is a bs question?

[Blake]

lol so you deny that is a bs question?

lol so you deny you are a moron?

No, not bs questions, only bs responses like yours.

[E20]

lol so you deny you are a moron?

No, not bs questions, only bs responses like yours.

Is in Heaven free to get in?

Lol your bull shit if you think that's not a bull shit question. lol sorry try again.

[JoeChalupa]

Some simply don't understand putting faith in an inconsistent book that talks about a God you can't see.

I can understand that. There are lots of scientific things you can't see but you believe in..no?

[JoeChalupa]

I don't get why miamiheat does that either.

Does it all the time. :lol

[Blake]

Is in Heaven free to get in?

Lol your bull shit if you think that's not a bull shit question. lol sorry try again.

the "free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ" but people still go to hell.

lol so you deny that you are a moron?

[E20]

the "free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ" but people still go to hell.

lol so you deny that you are a moron?

lol learn how to interpert a statement. the free gift is through jesus so you don't get the free gift if you don't go through jesus.

lol bull shit

[Blake]

I can understand that. There are lots of scientific things you can't see but you believe in..no?

yes, because they can be proven.

for the record, I don't have a problem believing in creation over abiogenesis. imo, it's more plausible.

what I have a problem with is the Bible and Christianity.

[MiamiHeat]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Amen.

[MiamiHeat]

lol learn how to interpert a statement. the free gift is through jesus so you don't get the free gift if you don't go through jesus.



This is correct.

Jesus Christ is the new covenant between the Father and the world. He came to this earth to sacrifice himself and pay for all of our sins in blood.

All you have to do is ask for his forgiveness and you shall be forgiven. You shall be saved.

Amen.

[Blake]

lol learn how to interpert a statement. the free gift is through jesus so you don't get the free gift if you don't go through jesus.

lol bull shit

lol it's not a free gift any more than sitting 3 hours through a time share presentation gets you a free gift card to Chilis.

lol you still deny you are a moron?

lol you are definitely a moron.

[angel_luv]

the point was that you compared God to Pop drawing up a perfect plan for Tim and Tony to run.

my point is that your analogy fails.





The story of sodom and gomorrah is besides the point. :)

It also a law of the old testament and is therefore irrelevant.

The NIV states that Paul is talking about homosexuality which is something that is not clear in original text. It's a broad assumption.

It was a parable I told using Pop.

He who has ears let him hear. :)

I enjoy conversing with you Blake. The only thing you can rightly blame me for is trying to lengthen our dialogue. :)

I would feel sorry if you weren't such a genuinely good conversationalist.

[MiamiHeat]

What I don't get is why non-believers think those of us who do have faith are "brain washed" or "believe in story tales" or act like we are somehow stupid simply because we choose to believe. I never push my religion on others and I can't stand it when non-believers push their scientific facts on me. If you don't believe fine.

Because Satan works in the heart of the non-believers. Satan wants to deceive the believers to lead them astray. That is his goal, to lead you away from God. The non-believers read their books and their fancy science and arrogantly think they know more than God?

They can't even control their own destinies, yet the question the Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last.

[angel_luv]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Amen.


This is correct.

Jesus Christ is the new covenant between the Father and the world. He came to this earth to sacrifice himself and pay for all of our sins in blood.

All you have to do is ask for his forgiveness and you shall be forgiven. You shall be saved.

Amen.

You are a Christian, Miami Heat? :)

[Blake]

It was a parable I told using Pop.

Got it. Sorry it failed for you.


He who has ears let him hear. :)

I'm listening.


I enjoy conversing with you Blake. The only thing you can rightly blame me for is trying to lengthen our dialogue. :)

you also don't like to answer hypotheticals and have admitted as much in other threads, so I guess that's 2 things.


I would feel sorry if you weren't such a genuinely good conversationalist.

I would feel sorry for me too, if I thought I was going to be not just kicked out of Heaven, but tormented and burned for the rest of eternity.

Why does God feel the need for the extra torture?

Why did God create E20 to be a moron?

[E20]

lol it's not a free gift any more than sitting 3 hours through a time share presentation gets you a free gift card to Chilis.

lol you still deny you are a moron?

lol you are definitely a moron.

lol that's the catch doesn't mean it's still not free.

[Blake]

lol that's the catch doesn't mean it's still not free.

lol you have to put forth effort to get the gift so yes, it means it's not really a free gift

lol you still deny you are a moron?

[angel_luv]

Got it. Sorry it failed for you.



I'm listening.



you also don't like to answer hypotheticals and have admitted as much in other threads, so I guess that's 2 things.



A simple thank you for the compliment would have sufficed. :lol :toast

[E20]

lol you have to put forth effort to get the gift so yes, it means it's not really a free gift

lol you still deny you are a moron?

lol i can't believe i got suckered into this argument, when i knew beforehand getting into heaven wasn't free.

Well on a serious note my main points in this thread were:

Aspects of religon and God's word that don't make sense to humans or are illogical or immoral by humans cannot be attempted to be explained, because we don't know how God thinks or what his motives are or his behavior, because we can't explain something that isn't human and that transcends humans with human reasoning.

[MiamiHeat]

lol i can't believe i got suckered into this argument, when i knew beforehand getting into heaven wasn't free.

It is free.

Jesus Christ only asks that you WANT to be forgiven.

When Denny's gives away free breakfasts, don't you have to drive to Denny's and say "I want one of your free breakfasts" ? It's free, isn't it? You don't say "It's not free because I have to ask for it"

All you have to do is ask Jesus Christ to enter into your heart, and you shall be saved. It's free. The price for salvation was paid already when Jesus died on the cross.

[Blake]

A simple thank you for the compliment would have sufficed. :lol :toast

I'm not much on giving a thank you out for a backhanded compliment, even if you didn't realize it was backhanded.

[Phenomanul]

and neither will free will.

fail

and neither will free will

You must have short-circuited there... your repiticious cynicism isn't much of a response at all. After all, I'm only voicing my opinion with regards to how I interpret the scriptures on these matters... Is your opinion any more valid???

IMO When in heaven I won't have the free-will to create another universe, a planet or even another sentient being... for I am not endowed with the power to create them... No amount of wishing on my part will ever enpower me with the capability to perform those tasks... likewise, we will not be able to sin for we will not be endowed with the desire to do so... sin will no longer exist... Just because we are endowed with free will does not mean we are capacitated to do things we are unable to do...
Can you outrun the "Jamaican Bolt"??? No...
Can you outplay LeBron James in basketball? No...
Can you outdrive Jeff Gordon? No...
Can you outgolf Tiger Woods? No...
Can you out-violin Joshua Bell? No...
Your free will doesn't capacitate you to do things outside of your experience... If sin no longer exists, it stands to reason that it will no longer exist in your thought process either... Hence, you will never act on anything that isn't pre-meditatively planned...

Besides, even if we still had a bearing on what 'the concept of sin' was... you would have to be crazy to volunteer to be a redux of Lucifer...



I understand who he is. Give me a really good reason why I should want to be with him for eternity.
If you fully understood His nature... you wouldn't need that reason. Your reasoning is dichotic.



I'm still waiting for anyone to tell me why/how heaven's good times will be better than earth's good times.
In Heaven we are promised a life with...
No more suffering
No more tears
No more anger
No more fear
and
Eternal joy

You apparently live the perfect life here on earth. Even without the subjectiveness of your question.... I'm not sure what response would satisfy your lofty standards...



source, scripture that says Heaven will be changed.

otherwise, your assumption is off base.

I was really answering ILMSM who already said that Heaven hasn't changed.

Sin was born out of Lucifer's rebellion... and has yet to be crushed - which is why it still abounds today...

Having said that, I don't know what part of "Sin will be defeated once and for all" you don't understand.

It will be eradicated... vanquished... anihilated...

That is a SIGNIFICANT change....

Jesus having incorporated His humanity into the nature of His Deity will also be a pretty significant change... He has the scars to prove it.

Finally, the most convincing scriptures reveal that GOD will create "a NEW heaven and a NEW earth"....

The promise of such an arrangement is found in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Isaiah 65:17 says this:

"For behold I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind."

Revalations 21:1-5 says,
"1) Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2) I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3) And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4) He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. 5) He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

and

2nd Peter 3:10-13 says,

"10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11) Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."




exactly how will you be above the angels in heaven? source, scripture, please.

unless you can prove that Heaven has changed, angels have the capacity and free will to sin while you do not.

Seems to me that angels are higher in the scheme of things.

Unlike humans, fallen angels cannot be redeemed. Once angels rebel against God, they are permanently banned from God's glory and presence... Some fallen angels are currently imprisoned until God's day of judgment (see 1st Peter 3:19-20; 2nd Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6), and some rule the realm of darkness with Satan. They, too, will one day face the wrath of God (Matthew 25:41).

So we may not wield their power or abilities... But seems to me that if GOD offered humans a path of redemption that He didn't extend to the Angels... that we must be pretty important to Him. That's all that should matter to us.

[Blake]

Aspects of religon and God's word that don't make sense to humans or are illogical or immoral by humans cannot be attempted to be explained, because we don't know how God thinks or what his motives are or his behavior, because we can't explain something that isn't human and that transcends humans with human reasoning.

the Bible makes inconsistent attempts at explaining God's motives and behavior.

thanks for playing.

[angel_luv]

I'm not much on giving a thank you out for a backhanded compliment, even if you didn't realize it was backhanded.

I sincerely meant that you are a good conversationalist and I enjoy speaking with you.

[Blake]

Unlike humans, fallen angels cannot be redeemed. Once angels rebel against God, they are permanently banned from God's glory and presence... Some fallen angels are currently imprisoned until God's day of judgment (see 1st Peter 3:19-20; 2nd Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6), and some rule the realm of darkness with Satan. They, too, will one day face the wrath of God (Matthew 25:41).

So we may not wield their power or abilities... But seems to me that if GOD offered humans a path of redemption that He didn't extend to the Angels... that we must be pretty important to Him. That's all that should matter to us.

apparently humans do not have the same free will that angels do.

Thanks for verifying the inconsistency for me.

[Blake]

I sincerely meant that you are a good conversationalist and I enjoy speaking with you.

thank you :toast

[angel_luv]

yw :)

[Blake]

When Denny's gives away free breakfasts, don't you have to drive to Denny's and say "I want one of your free breakfasts" ? It's free, isn't it? You don't say "It's not free because I have to ask for it"

All you have to do is ask Jesus Christ to enter into your heart, and you shall be saved. It's free. The price for salvation was paid already when Jesus died on the cross.

Did you ask Denny to enter you heart?

[Phenomanul]

apparently humans do not have the same free will that angels do.

Thanks for verifying the inconsistency for me.

In your reluctant skepticism, you wanted me to provide... scratch that... you demanded that I provide biblical scriptures that supported the belief that heaven would be different in the 'future' (particularly after Satan and his deceived followers have been cast into the "lake of fire")...

I provided several references... from both Cananoical testaments no less...

But you ignored them to avoid conceding an argument... is your complex that disturbingly stubborn???

The passages you overlooked reference the judgment that will be handed down to defeat sin... the event that will mark a new era...

SIN will no longer exist when the LORD destroys it.... FREE-WILL will not be tampered with... Most importantly, Satan will no longer be around to deceive anyone... including the angels.

Besides, you need to realize that the heavenly timeline is not congruent with ours... the reference to "a new heaven and a new earth" however, still implies that there will be a significant change... a destruction of the old heaven and the old earth.... and the creation of a new setting.

For all of your demands on the subject, you haven't really substantiated any of your claims with anything other than your opinion... One can grow frustratingly weary having to drudge through such unilateral discussions...

[tlongII]

Did you ask Denny to enter you heart?

Yes, and now I need a bypass! :madrun

[MiamiHeat]

You ask Denny's to enter your stomach.

Salvation is a spiritual thing, so you need to ask Jesus to enter your heart.

No difference. It's free.

[LnGrrrR]

did you ask denny to enter you heart?

lmao

[E20]

the Bible makes inconsistent attempts at explaining God's motives and behavior.

thanks for playing.

I would attempt a counter arguement, but it's not worth it lol. I think what you want is for religon/god to be clear cut and straightforward as science is and you're basing your expectations on finding answers in regards to god/religon off that.


Fudge, what I should have said in response to the question "Is it free" is that anybody that knows anything about religon is that the price to pay is to sacrifice this life to follow god's rule and submit your will to him.

[exstatic]

I don't see how anyone alive and sentient between, say, January 2001 and January 2009 can say that Christianity is anything BUT anti-science.


Why that timeframe?

The Christian Taliban reigned in the US and abolished much research that they didn't like.

[Blake]

For all of your demands on the subject, you haven't really substantiated any of your claims with anything other than your opinion... One can grow frustratingly weary having to drudge through such unilateral discussions...

for all of your shouting with nothing to really back it up with, you have further cemented my opinion that free will in heaven is lost.

thank you. :toast

[Blake]

I would attempt a counter arguement, but it's not worth it lol. I think what you want is for religon/god to be clear cut and straightforward as science is and you're basing your expectations on finding answers in regards to god/religon off that.

Ding ding. winner winner, Denny's dinner.

If God created the laws of science and is clear cut about them, then why is it such a stretch for an "omnipotent" God to make one clear cut Bible and/or religion?


Fudge, what I should have said in response to the question "Is it free" is that anybody that knows anything about religon is that the price to pay is to sacrifice this life to follow god's rule and submit your will to him.

:lol now you're talking.

[MiamiHeat]

http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Kris/easter4.png


OH NOE

[MiamiHeat]

lol

[I Love Me Some Me]

As C.S. Lewis puts it...let's play the game the other way around.

Perhaps it is the atheist who, instead of inventing God, have invented their own non-god. Is atheism a reality, or is it just an idea or your own emotional crutch...your own wishful thinking? Has the atheist invented atheism to avoid some of the frightening implications of the existence of this God we speak of?

Throughout history, people of all cultures (primitive and advanced) have believed in God. They don't need to be talked into it. That's just the obvious conclusion they draw. Heck, even a blind, deaf, and mute Helen Keller found God without being taught about Him. Atheism, it seems to me, is the real anomaly here. It seems unnatural, contrived, and artificial. Everyone in this thread who is anti-God seems to ask these questions to talk themselves out of believing. You perform these mental gymnastics just to convince yourself God doesn't exist.

Based on the weight of this conversation was based in free will, and liberty, I can conclude that your decision to not believe in God has less to do physical evidence, and more (if not everything) to do your desire to drive instead of ride shotgun. If you can convince yourself God doesn't exist, you can do what you like on Saturday night, and sleep in on Sunday morning. Behave however you feel, and convince yourself there are no eternal consequences since the God you need to believe in doesn't even exist...so why change my ways? Why give up control...why submit myself to a different authority...I got this...I can handle it...it's my life...I'm the driver. Quit pretending this is about evidence and science, when it's really about control and pride.

I don't know...if I were going to invent a god, I don't think I'd come up with the God of the Bible. A god designed by humans would mirror human sensibilities. He'd think and act like us. And, since we made him up, his moral code would reflect our desires. If we screwed up, he'd shrug his shoulders, pat us on the back, and tell us to try better next time. Hey..nobody's perfect.

But...the thing about the God of the Bible is that he is so unlike us. His wisdom confuses us...His purity is intimidating...He makes moral demands that are hard to live up to, with harsh punishment for those who do not obey...instead of being at our beck and call, He cannot be manipulated.

Is this really the best God we could come up with? Can someone even make that up if they tried? Could you? Is this the god you'd dream up if you were making your own god?

[Cane]

Is this really the best God we could come up with? Can someone even make that up if they tried? Could you? Is this the god you'd dream up if you were making your own god?

Ever here of the Greek and Roman gods? They are notorious for being jealous, hateful, gossiping, bastards and bitches to eachother and to their followers. Its fucking drama.

I suggest reading up on cultural anthropology for the real reasons why religions are seen worldwide and the reasons for them (social control, way of setting up norms/customs, explaining the unknown, $$$, power, etc.)

[I Love Me Some Me]

Ever here of the Greek and Roman gods? They are notorious for being jealous, hateful, gossiping, bastards and bitches to eachother and to their followers. Its fucking drama.

I suggest reading up on cultural anthropology for the real reasons why religions are seen worldwide and the reasons for them (social control, way of setting up norms/customs, explaining the unknown, $$$, power, etc.)

And where is the belief in those Greek and Roman gods now?

[Phenomanul]

for all of your shouting with nothing to really back it up with, you have further cemented my opinion that free will in heaven is lost.

thank you. :toast

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Boasting about your stubborness is really quite pathetic...

Look, you don't have to buy in to my beliefs... In fact, I don't expect that out of anyone on a forum... but don't lie and suggest that your original premise wasn't clearly refuted (have you not kept insisting that Heaven will remain the same???)... So go ahead and backpedal all you want... at this point you still haven't shown a single reference to substantiate your own opinion...

Besides, I don't recall getting a memo that stated you were the world's expert on the subject, or anything remotely suggesting that you had the final 'say so' on all such matters... If you have something of the sort, feel free to post it... :wakeup

[LnGrrrR]

Fudge, what I should have said in response to the question "Is it free" is that anybody that knows anything about religon is that the price to pay is to sacrifice this life to follow god's rule and submit your will to him.

See how easy that was? :D

[LnGrrrR]

As C.S. Lewis puts it...let's play the game the other way around.

Perhaps it is the atheist who, instead of inventing God, have invented their own non-god. Is atheism a reality, or is it just an idea or your own emotional crutch...your own wishful thinking? Has the atheist invented atheism to avoid some of the frightening implications of the existence of this God we speak of?

Throughout history, people of all cultures (primitive and advanced) have believed in God. They don't need to be talked into it. That's just the obvious conclusion they draw. Heck, even a blind, deaf, and mute Helen Keller found God without being taught about Him. Atheism, it seems to me, is the real anomaly here. It seems unnatural, contrived, and artificial. Everyone in this thread who is anti-God seems to ask these questions to talk themselves out of believing. You perform these mental gymnastics just to convince yourself God doesn't exist.

Based on the weight of this conversation was based in free will, and liberty, I can conclude that your decision to not believe in God has less to do physical evidence, and more (if not everything) to do your desire to drive instead of ride shotgun. If you can convince yourself God doesn't exist, you can do what you like on Saturday night, and sleep in on Sunday morning. Behave however you feel, and convince yourself there are no eternal consequences since the God you need to believe in doesn't even exist...so why change my ways? Why give up control...why submit myself to a different authority...I got this...I can handle it...it's my life...I'm the driver. Quit pretending this is about evidence and science, when it's really about control and pride.

I don't know...if I were going to invent a god, I don't think I'd come up with the God of the Bible. A god designed by humans would mirror human sensibilities. He'd think and act like us. And, since we made him up, his moral code would reflect our desires. If we screwed up, he'd shrug his shoulders, pat us on the back, and tell us to try better next time. Hey..nobody's perfect.

But...the thing about the God of the Bible is that he is so unlike us. His wisdom confuses us...His purity is intimidating...He makes moral demands that are hard to live up to, with harsh punishment for those who do not obey...instead of being at our beck and call, He cannot be manipulated.

Is this really the best God we could come up with? Can someone even make that up if they tried? Could you? Is this the god you'd dream up if you were making your own god?

CS Lewis, while an interesting story teller, didn't provide very useful arguments for Christianity I find. His liar/lunatic/Lord argument has been debunked in many areas.

Anyways, I don't have to DO anything to disbelieve in God, anymore than you have to DO anything to disbelieve in Allah. It's just not there.

My lack of belief does shape my opinions/values in some ways, indeed. But my atheism has little to do with my sense of wanting to drive instead of ride shotgun.

[z0sa]

and it seems people agree, you truly are a moron if you're calling science bullshit.


you are pathetic. I'm glad I wasn't born a brainwashed, retarded clown.

lol, the pathetic one is you for insulting me when I merely stated my opinion. An appropriate, nonbutthurt response would have requested more information.

its actually funny how far an atheist like yourself will go when I start talking about your precious pseudosciences as bullshit as well :lol

[Blake]

As C.S. Lewis puts it...let's play the game the other way around.

CS Lewis also figured that Christianity must be right based on the people that have died for it.

Great logic.


Perhaps it is the atheist who, instead of inventing God, have invented their own non-god. Is atheism a reality, or is it just an idea or your own emotional crutch...your own wishful thinking? Has the atheist invented atheism to avoid some of the frightening implications of the existence of this God we speak of?

why would anyone wishfully think that God doesn't exist and that we ultimately cease to exist after we die?

I like the idea of believing in Jesus = eternal life. I just don't buy it.


Throughout history, people of all cultures (primitive and advanced) have believed in God. They don't need to be talked into it. That's just the obvious conclusion they draw. Heck, even a blind, deaf, and mute Helen Keller found God without being taught about Him. Atheism, it seems to me, is the real anomaly here. It seems unnatural, contrived, and artificial. Everyone in this thread who is anti-God seems to ask these questions to talk themselves out of believing. You perform these mental gymnastics just to convince yourself God doesn't exist.

did Helen Keller find Jesus and accept him as Lord and Savior, knowing that he died on the cross for her?


Based on the weight of this conversation was based in free will, and liberty, I can conclude that your decision to not believe in God has less to do physical evidence, and more (if not everything) to do your desire to drive instead of ride shotgun. If you can convince yourself God doesn't exist, you can do what you like on Saturday night, and sleep in on Sunday morning.

so salvation is a free gift, but you still have to pay for shipping and handling.

...but it's still "free".....


Behave however you feel, and convince yourself there are no eternal consequences since the God you need to believe in doesn't even exist...so why change my ways? Why give up control...why submit myself to a different authority...I got this...I can handle it...it's my life...I'm the driver. Quit pretending this is about evidence and science, when it's really about control and pride.

if belief is all I need, then why should I give up control and change my ways?


I don't know...if I were going to invent a god, I don't think I'd come up with the God of the Bible. A god designed by humans would mirror human sensibilities. He'd think and act like us. And, since we made him up, his moral code would reflect our desires. If we screwed up, he'd shrug his shoulders, pat us on the back, and tell us to try better next time. Hey..nobody's perfect.

God is jealous and gets pissed if you don't listen to him and apparently found a human that was a man after his own "heart".....

...but that was Old Testament God.


But...the thing about the God of the Bible is that he is so unlike us. His wisdom confuses us...His purity is intimidating...He makes moral demands that are hard to live up to, with harsh punishment for those who do not obey...instead of being at our beck and call, He cannot be manipulated.

the contradictions confuse us.

Jesus tells the prostitute she's forgiven and to go and sin no more, but in the OT, God kills the dude that pulls out and "spills his seed on the floor".

That line is great for youth ministers to preach about the sin of masturbation.


Is this really the best God we could come up with? Can someone even make that up if they tried? Could you? Is this the god you'd dream up if you were making your own god?

Moses: "God talked to me in a burning bush"
Jim Gaffigan: "Moses, we think you've been burnin' some bush."

[E20]

If God created the laws of science and is clear cut about them, then why is it such a stretch for an "omnipotent" God to make one clear cut Bible and/or religion?

I would love to have a definite answer to this, but the only feasible one that I could think of that makes sense lol.....(sort of) he did it on purpose as a test to see who would follow, but then again, most people are born into a certain religon or just follow it for the sake of convience, so if said religon is the wrong then what would happen? Go to hell? I don't know. I'd like to think that if you're a good person and believe that an ominpotent god created us then you're in.

I don't know what if God just gave the right message to christiniaty/islam/judaism/hindu/every other religon and we're all going to heaven?

[Blake]

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Boasting about your stubborness is really quite pathetic...

enlarging fonts proves nothing and is even more pathetic


Look, you don't have to buy in to my beliefs... In fact, I don't expect that out of anyone on a forum... but don't lie and suggest that your original premise wasn't clearly refuted (have you not kept insisting that Heaven will remain the same???)...

No, ILMSM insisted that Heaven will remain the same.

I was playing logic games off of that notion.

Thanks for not reading.


So go ahead and backpedal all you want... at this point you still haven't shown a single reference to substantiate your own opinion...

I have never backpedaled.

My opinion is that if sinned is removed and heaven is the same today as it always has been, then free will no longer exists for humans.

I'm not sure what reference you need to substantiate that logic.

Thanks again for not reading.


Besides, I don't recall getting a memo that stated you were the world's expert on the subject, or anything remotely suggesting that you had the final 'say so' on all such matters... If you have something of the sort, feel free to post it... :wakeup

I don't recall sending a memo that stated I was the world's expert on the subject.

Of course, by your logic, just because we haven't seen such a memo, it doesn't mean that such a memo doesn't exist.

Thanks for verifying your moron status.

Memo to Phenomanul: "You are a moron."

[Blake]

I would love to have a definite answer to this, but the only feasible one that I could think of that makes sense lol.....(sort of) he did it on purpose as a test to see who would follow, but then again, most people are born into a certain religon or just follow it for the sake of convience, so if said religon is the wrong then what would happen? Go to hell? I don't know. I'd like to think that if you're a good person and believe that an ominpotent god created us then you're in.

they also come into a religion based on the area they live in. How many Southern Baptist churches are there in Canada? How many mormon tabernacles are in Brazil?

I'd like to think that being a good person is enough and that belief is not part of any equation.


I don't know what if God just gave the right message to christiniaty/islam/judaism/hindu/every other religon and we're all going to heaven?

I'd like to think that is a possibilty of sorts as well.

Since CS Lewis was mentioned.......the final book in the Narnia series is called "The Last Battle" where all the Narnia kids/heroes go to "heaven" with Aslan.......but there is also one that ends up with them that had worshipped a false god and asks Aslan how he got there........and Aslan basically says, "you were really worshipping me all along, you just didn't know it"

[z0sa]

There's a difference between executing someone humanely and stoning them to death. I'm sure you can see that.

Not in this case. God promises hell for the nonbelievers, is that enough for you to believe? Of course not.

God promises stoning for breaking the ten commandments, all of a sudden everyone follows them without problem - and are happier, healthier and safer because of it. There IS multiple times throughout the OT the majority of Israelites stray from God's commandments and get punished for it, though, which should tell you something about God setting his standard higher for "His people." (thus, its a given that these people felt similar at times and just didn't follow God's laws - and didn't call other people out for it, either)

Like I've said, I guess this answer just isn't good enough, isn't "humane" enough. Well, God is God. He officially put these Ten Things into writing so that we have a guide to go by what NOT to do. When you know what NOT to do, and still do it with knowledge of the eventual punishment, what is unjust, or inhumane? You've been a fool, and God doesn't slap on the hand. Sin is sin, no matter how small or great.




Aren't the parents disobeying God's will then?

Not at all. God has given the parents leeway in this for obvious reasons - no one wants to kill their children. Again, God has only set the standard, the people must adhere to it. I doubt this rule actually ended up being used at all, if you want my honest opinion. The glutton/drunkard part pretty never happened with Israeli children, and by the time they got older, they had left their parents' home.



It specifically said "to death" did it not?

Yes.


Agreed that the laws were at least progressive for slaves. However, it did not mean they WEREN'T slaves. They were still slaves, just that they were well-treated.

Every culture of that day had slaves, yet you'd be hardpressed (perhaps impossibly pressed) to find another culture which gave it slaves these UNALIENABLE rights. Now, I understand your point - that they are still slaves and that's not right. However, many people in other cultures who weren't slaves were denied these basic freedoms. IMO, God saw that as long as the slaves could never be wronged or hurt, they weren't really slaves at all, but workers. If the slaves aren't being wronged, why would God intervene? It's not a great argument, but God typically lets us humans do what we wish - he won't intervene directly.


My point? Why doesn't God seem to be as 'moral' as today's society? If God is ok with slavery, making it moral, why don't we consider it moral, as long as the slave is well-kept?

Humans still keep slaves today - why do you think God gave them unalienable rights? :)


When it comes down to it, God accepts both slavery and stoning people to death, two things that most societies nowadays would consider immoral. Why do we consider it immoral if God does not?

It may be inferred God is "okay" with slavery, but I don't think that's the case. I think slave trading was so huge then, and slaves desperately needed in actuality for many things, that instead of denying their use, God simply commanded the Jews treat the slaves with human rights, as well as ensuring their freedom should they be wronged in any way.

[I Love Me Some Me]

CS Lewis, while an interesting story teller, didn't provide very useful arguments for Christianity I find. His liar/lunatic/Lord argument has been debunked in many areas.

Anyways, I don't have to DO anything to disbelieve in God, anymore than you have to DO anything to disbelieve in Allah. It's just not there.

My lack of belief does shape my opinions/values in some ways, indeed. But my atheism has little to do with my sense of wanting to drive instead of ride shotgun.

I only cited Lewis for that one-liner, not to use his arguments in this conversation.

My disbelief in Allah is born out of my belief in God. So, yeah, I did something to not believe in him.

Lack of belief? I thought you were agnostic?

[Blake]

Not in this case. God promises hell for the nonbelievers, is that enough for you to believe? Of course not.

God promises stoning for breaking the ten commandments, all of a sudden everyone follows them without problem - and are happier, healthier and safer because of it.

so if you covet your neighbor's house, you get stoned to death. Great.


Like I've said, I guess this answer just isn't good enough, isn't "humane" enough. Well, God is God. He officially put these Ten Things into writing so that we have a guide to go by what NOT to do. When you know what NOT to do, and still do it with knowledge of the eventual punishment, what is unjust, or inhumane? You've been a fool, and God doesn't slap on the hand. Sin is sin, no matter how small or great.

Well, zosa is zosa.

The punishment doesn't fit the crimes. Not sure why that's a hard concept for you to get.

Is divorce a sin?


Not at all. God has given the parents leeway in this for obvious reasons - no one wants to kill their children.

God doesn't want to kill his non-believing children. He wants to instead torture them for eternity.


Again, God has only set the standard, the people must adhere to it. I doubt this rule actually ended up being used at all, if you want my honest opinion. The glutton/drunkard part pretty never happened with Israeli children, and by the time they got older, they had left their parents' home.


That's not the issue. The issue is that the law is in place to begin with.



Every culture of that day had slaves, yet you'd be hardpressed (perhaps impossibly pressed) to find another culture which gave it slaves these UNALIENABLE rights. Now, I understand your point - that they are still slaves and that's not right. However, many people in other cultures who weren't slaves were denied these basic freedoms. IMO, God saw that as long as the slaves could never be wronged or hurt, they weren't really slaves at all, but workers. If the slaves aren't being wronged, why would God intervene? It's not a great argument, but God typically lets us humans do what we wish - he won't intervene directly.

this is fail on so many levels. You haven't read the old testament much, have you?


Humans still keep slaves today - why do you think God gave them unalienable rights? :)

It may be inferred God is "okay" with slavery, but I don't think that's the case. I think slave trading was so huge then, and slaves desperately needed in actuality for many things, that instead of denying their use, God simply commanded the Jews treat the slaves with human rights, as well as ensuring their freedom should they be wronged in any way.

so God let slave trading get so far out of hand that he said "oh well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"

well, zosa is zosa.

[z0sa]

so if you covet your neighbor's house, you get stoned to death. Great.

who's going to prove it, and who would know about it except you and God?




Well, zosa is zosa.

I am that is.


The punishment doesn't fit the crimes. Not sure why that's a hard concept for you to get.

Nah, it's not. You just refuse to understand it within the context, or if you do, refuse to believe God could follow through with such harsh punishment. Yet you were not recently led out from slavery yourselves by God's hand only, were you? God sets his people to a very high standard, and the Jews were his people.


Is divorce a sin?

It can be considered a sin, yes, but again, God forgives. Where does it say you will be put to death for divorcing your spouse?



God doesn't want to kill his non-believing children. He wants to instead torture them for eternity.

He wants them out of his presence, and out of his presence is where Satan resides.




That's not the issue. The issue is that the law is in place to begin with.

You don't think Law is necessary? Maybe you don't think execution is necessary.

Maybe God should have thought freeing the Jews slavery in Egypt wasn't necessary. Or writing down these Ten Commandments which must never be broken.

Bottom line is the Jews owed God everything, yet continually strayed from the path. Execution is promised for doing so - yet the entire nation did it time and time again, despite a "true' theocracy. It still wasn't enough that God ordered and ordained it.





this is fail on so many levels. You haven't read the old testament much, have you?

far more than you have.




so God let slave trading get so far out of hand that he said "oh well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"

critical thinking, meet blake. I'm not sure either of you have met before. If you had, he'd know God didn't stop the slave trade in any other nation at any time during history, yet he expects him to have stopped it in ancient Israel, rather than give the slaves unalienable rights essentially securing their freedom at some point. Slaves in America would have been lucky for 1/10th of the rights the Bible guaranteed them 2000 years before.

Americans owned slaves til 1865, AND YET we wrote our own constitution (not God), including 'all men are created equal, with certain unalienable rights' ... didn't stop those slaveowning writers from keeping on with the slaving. Humans still own slaves today in many countries. You're seriously, blind.

[Blake]

who's going to prove it, and who would know about it except you and God?

and it also makes for a happier, healthier and safer society


I am that is.

You are a moron.


Nah, it's not. You just refuse to understand it within the context, or if you do, refuse to believe God could follow through with such harsh punishment. Yet you were not recently led out from slavery yourselves by God's hand only, were you? God sets his people to a very high standard, and the Jews were his people.

Nah, you just refuse to understand that the punishments throughout the Old Testament were inconsistent with the sins committed.


It can be considered a sin, yes, but again, God forgives. Where does it say you will be put to death for divorcing your spouse?

It doesn't, but it doesn't surprise me that you miss the point.

Divorce is considered a sin by most but is considered acceptable in the Old Testament.

zosa auto response: "everyone else was doing it so God let the Israelites do it"


He wants them out of his presence, and out of his presence is where Satan resides.

...where he wants to torture them for eternity.


You don't think Law is necessary? Maybe you don't think execution is necessary.

Maybe God should have thought freeing the Jews slavery in Egypt wasn't necessary. Or writing down these Ten Commandments which must never be broken.

Bottom line is the Jews owed God everything, yet continually strayed from the path. Execution is promised for doing so - yet the entire nation did it time and time again, despite a "true' theocracy. It still wasn't enough that God ordered and ordained it.

Missing the point is unnecessary.


far more than you have.

if you think that God doesn't intervene directly, then you really haven't read the Old Testament, whether you really have it read it more than me or not.


critical thinking, meet blake. I'm not sure either of you have met before. If you had, he'd know God didn't stop the slave trade in any other nation at any time during history, yet he expects him to have stopped it in ancient Israel, rather than give the slaves unalienable rights essentially securing their freedom at some point.

Missing the point, meet zosa.

Oh, I didn't realize you two were practically BFFs.


Americans owned slaves til 1865, AND we wrote our own constitution, including 'all men are created equal, with certain unalienable rights' ... Humans still own slaves today in many countries. You're seriously, blind.

Humans owning slaves today has nothing to do with anything.

You're seriously a moron.

[z0sa]

and it also makes for a happier, healthier and safer society

by not coveting your neighbor's shit? Of course it does.




I am a moron.



Nah, you just refuse to understand that the punishments throughout the Old Testament were inconsistent with the sins committed.

I tried, you say God is unjust for doing what he says he going to do. You have an problem with the punishment, not the issue itself? Don't break the ten commandments. WOW, its really not that horrible is it?


It doesn't, but it doesn't surprise me that you miss the point.

It is you who has missed the point - which is not surprising.


Divorce is considered a sin by most but is considered acceptable in the Old Testament.

It isn't considered acceptable - it is a standard God set, just like his many other instructions. If two cannot get along, should they hate each other, causing more sin if they cheat or lie or steal, or just divorce and pray for forgiveness and help finding the right one?


zosa auto response: "everyone else was doing it so God let the Israelites do it"

Eh, whatever. God gave them rights every slave elsewhere would have died for.




...where he wants to torture them for eternity.

For all the fucked up shit you and I have done, we deserve it.




Me missing the point is unnecessary.

I know, i tried.




if you think that God doesn't intervene directly, then you really haven't read the Old Testament, whether you really have it read it more than me or not.

Typically he does not. The OT spans thousands of years, how many interventions are you estimating?




Missing the point, meet zosa.

Oh, I didn't realize you two were practically BFFs.

that's really ironic.






Humans owning slaves today has nothing to do with anything.

lol, and you don't understand why my responses don't make sense? you don't even know what i'm talking about.


I'm seriously a moron.

:tu

[ALVAREZ6]

lol, the pathetic one is you for insulting me when I merely stated my opinion. An appropriate, nonbutthurt response would have requested more information.

its actually funny how far an atheist like yourself will go when I start talking about your precious pseudosciences as bullshit as well :lol
how far I will go???

I simply called you a moron....I didn't think that was going very far.

[ididnotnothat]

Call it stupid or whatever but the decline in religion and faith is why so many young punks have no regard to human life or suffering and they are going to pass it on to their kids.

[LnGrrrR]

Humans still keep slaves today - why do you think God gave them unalienable rights? :)

Would you say that the workers today are analagous to slaves?


It may be inferred God is "okay" with slavery, but I don't think that's the case. I think slave trading was so huge then, and slaves desperately needed in actuality for many things, that instead of denying their use, God simply commanded the Jews treat the slaves with human rights, as well as ensuring their freedom should they be wronged in any way.

Couldn't God have said "No slavery" as one of the many laws the Bible says to follow?

[LnGrrrR]

I only cited Lewis for that one-liner, not to use his arguments in this conversation.

My disbelief in Allah is born out of my belief in God. So, yeah, I did something to not believe in him.

Lack of belief? I thought you were agnostic?

How many times must I state:

Agnostic = Without KNOWLEDGE

Atheist = Without BELIEF

I have no definitive knowledge of God's existence of lack thereof, I have no belief in any God. He may, or may not exist, but I do not believe.

Maybe a poor choice of wording in the Allah/God thing, but my point is that I'm not trying to 'active' unbelieve or anything. I don't even think that's possible. I just don't. *shrug*

[LnGrrrR]

Call it stupid or whatever but the decline in religion and faith is why so many young punks have no regard to human life or suffering and they are going to pass it on to their kids.

Yes, because life has always been sacred up until this moment. Look at the Inquisition, or the way Columbus treated the Native Americans, or WWII, or any of the many areas in which people showed unending gratitude, charity and humility towards their fellow man.

[z0sa]

how far I will go???

I simply called you a moron....I didn't think that was going very far.


and it seems people agree (miamiheat, blake :lmao), you truly are a moron if you're calling science bullshit.

Yeah, in the context I was definitely just calling science a bullshit feeder, and not both religion and science (and it does feed you bullshit, thanks you very much)



you are pathetic. I'm glad I wasn't born a brainwashed, retarded clown.

wait, i thought you only called me a moron, not a pathetic, brainwashed, retarded clown?

again, its not hard to see i'm walking on your 'beliefs' in science, and it pisses you off. Don't lie about. Just admit it and question what exactly I'm saying, instead of insulting me.

[LnGrrrR]

Eh, whatever. God gave them rights every slave elsewhere would have died for.

Or he could've just said "No slavery". This is not a matter of how WELL the slaves were treated; this is a matter of whether you consider it moral or not to be able to keep slaves who work for you.

Here's an apologist for slavery in the Bible: http://www.allaboutworldview.org/slavery-in-the-bible.htm

... who glosses over the fact that, no matter how humane the slavery may be, we would consider it immoral nowadays, whereas God obviously did not. If God did NOT consider it immoral, then he had the power to outlaw it, as he did with other forbidden vices.

[LnGrrrR]

again, its not hard to see i'm walking on your 'beliefs' in science, and it pisses you off. Don't lie about. Just admit it and question what exactly I'm saying, instead of insulting me.

"Belief" in science is usually based on past experience and data. It is not the same as 'belief' where you just have to trust something. It's a failure of the English language :)

For instance, saying I believe the sun will come up tomorrow does not imply the same thing as saying I believe in a God.

[z0sa]

"Belief" in science is usually based on past experience and data. It is not the same as 'belief' where you just have to trust something. It's a failure of the English language :)

For instance, saying I believe the sun will come up tomorrow does not imply the same thing as saying I believe in a God.

that's why i said 'beliefs' with the little quotes around it :)

[z0sa]

Or he could've just said "No slavery". This is not a matter of how WELL the slaves were treated; this is a matter of whether you consider it moral or not to be able to keep slaves who work for you.

Here's an apologist for slavery in the Bible: http://www.allaboutworldview.org/slavery-in-the-bible.htm

... who glosses over the fact that, no matter how humane the slavery may be, we would consider it immoral nowadays, whereas God obviously did not. If God did NOT consider it immoral, then he had the power to outlaw it, as he did with other forbidden vices.

I never said I'd have all the answers. It's a good point that outlawing slavery completely would have been the most 'moral' option. But with the laws protecting them, I don't see how they were the slaves we've come to imagine today, getting beaten and shit upon and overworked and underfed and murdered etc etc etc these slaves had all the same 'human' rights as their owners, they were just in a lower class.

[Blake]

by not coveting your neighbor's shit? Of course it does.

Jaywalking laws help keep people happier, healthier and safer.

Coveting your neighbor's "shit" is a worthless law, especially considering that "thou shalt not steal" is a law as well.

Yet, coveting your neighbor's "shit" is punishable by death.

Keep on missing the point.


I tried, you say God is unjust for doing what he says he going to do. You have an problem with the punishment, not the issue itself? Don't break the ten commandments. WOW, its really not that horrible is it?

Breaking the law is wrong.

Yes, I have an issue with a punishment of death for breaking some of those 10 commandments.

Your posts are horrible.


It is you who has missed the point - which is not surprising.

I'm the one making the point.

You saying I missed my own point is not surprising.


It isn't considered acceptable - it is a standard God set, just like his many other instructions. If two cannot get along, should they hate each other, causing more sin if they cheat or lie or steal, or just divorce and pray for forgiveness and help finding the right one?

It's a sin now, but divorce was ok in the OT. That's called a contradiction.

Great job of missing the point again.


Eh, whatever. God gave them rights every slave elsewhere would have died for.

Eh, "everyone else was doing it so God let the Israelites do it"


For all the fucked up shit you and I have done, we deserve it.

so when your kids fock up, you torture and burn them because they deserve it.

you deserve to be stoned in the street.


I know, i tried.

and you still unnecessarily missed the point.


Typically he does not. The OT spans thousands of years, how many interventions are you estimating?

finding one direct intervention is enough to prove the point.

and to prove you really haven't read the OT much.


that's really ironic.

No it's not. I haven't missed my own point.


lol, and you don't understand why my responses don't make sense? you don't even know what i'm talking about.

Humans owning slaves today has nothing to do with my point, so you are correct, I don't really know what you are talking about.

:tu

[z0sa]

Jaywalking laws help keep people happier, healthier and safer.

Coveting your neighbor's "shit" is a worthless law, especially considering that "thou shalt not steal" is a law as well.

Yet, coveting your neighbor's "shit" is punishable by death.

Keep on missing the point.



Breaking the law is wrong.

Yes, I have an issue with a punishment of death for breaking some of those 10 commandments.

Your posts are horrible.



I'm the one making the point.

You saying I missed my own point is not surprising.



It's a sin now, but divorce was ok in the OT. That's called a contradiction.

Great job of missing the point again.



Eh, "everyone else was doing it so God let the Israelites do it"



so when your kids fock up, you torture and burn them because they deserve it.

you deserve to be stoned in the street.



and you still unnecessarily missed the point.



finding one direct intervention is enough to prove the point.

and to prove you really haven't read the OT much.



No it's not. I haven't missed my own point.



Humans owning slaves today has nothing to do with my point, so you are correct, I don't really know what you are talking about.

:tu

:sleep:sleep

i've answered all this shit, if you're making a point and i respond to it, and you say i missed the point and i say you missed the point of my responses, who's to say who's right and who's wrong? I just won't go on. You have your view, I have mine.

[Blake]

Call it stupid or whatever but the decline in religion and faith is why so many young punks have no regard to human life or suffering and they are going to pass it on to their kids.

source?

[Blake]

:sleep:sleep

i've answered all this shit, if you're making a point and i respond to it, and you say i missed the point and i say you missed the point of my responses, who's to say who's right and who's wrong? I just won't go on. You have your view, I have mine.

The punishment of death is not a just punishment for coveting your neighbor's "shit".

You have your views and I have mine.

My view is that your a moron.

:tu

[z0sa]

The punishment of death is not a just punishment for coveting your neighbor's "shit".

You have your views and I have mine.

My view is that your a moron.

:tu

cool

[z0sa]

source?

critical thinking, i thought you were introduced?

[Phenomanul]

enlarging fonts proves nothing and is even more pathetic

I simply pointed out that the entire basis for this nagging discussion has been your opinion.... enlarging the font was nothing more than an attempt to highlight that basis as a point of emphasis since apparently you aren't addressing the focal points of my arguments.

Regardless of anything you have said, your tirades, and smug confidence are all based on your opinion and nothing else...

That you would then use your opinion as the basis to call others morons... simply demonstrates your childish need to reaffirm and feed your insecurity complex. That's what's pathetic...



No, ILMSM insisted that Heaven will remain the same.

I was playing logic games off of that notion.

Thanks for not reading.

Really???



[please cite] source, scripture that says Heaven will be changed.

otherwise, your assumption is off base.

exactly how will you be above the angels in heaven? source, scripture, please.

and



unless you can prove that Heaven has changed, angels have the capacity and free will to sin while you do not.

Seems to me that angels are higher in the scheme of things.


Seems to me like you were confused by your own games... that is a mighty strange way of suggesting that you needed to be convinced of something that you already believed.... or it could be that you are now backpedalling despite your denial???... hmmm...



I have never backpedaled.
:blah :rolleyes




My opinion is that if sinned is removed and heaven is the same today as it always has been, then free will no longer exists for humans.

I'm not sure what reference you need to substantiate that logic.

Thanks again for not reading.

You really don't need to substantiate your opinion... That's kind of the point.

If you call someone else out based solely on your opinion however... then at that point you need to provide a little more substance...

Now regarding your particular opinion.... the four scriptures I cited clearly stated that heaven will in fact be different in the future. Your leap in logic on how that change will impact free-will is unfounded.

By the way, I thought you said you weren't arguing against the notion that heaven would change? Here you again imply that it will remain the same... Which is it? You clearly aren't reading peoples responses or following the thread... and to top it off, your out-of-context sneers aren't really doing much for your cause.



I don't recall sending a memo that stated I was the world's expert on the subject.

When then, don't act like you are. Simple really.



Of course, by your logic, just because we haven't seen such a memo, it doesn't mean that such a memo doesn't exist.
Clearly why I stated you should feel free to post it. But you're right! The existence of such a memo would require supernatural intervention, cause clearly you're not much of an expert on these matters...



Thanks for verifying my moronic status.

Memo to Phenomanul: "I, Blake, am a moron."

Fixed. :wakeup

Don't even bother responding. Feed your insecurities elsewhere...

[Blake]

critical thinking, i thought you were introduced?

making an unsubstantiated claim is not critical thinking.

dictionary meet zosa

[ALVAREZ6]

again, its not hard to see i'm walking on your 'beliefs' in science, and it pisses you off. Don't lie about. Just admit it and question what exactly I'm saying, instead of insulting me.
It doesn't piss me off, if you're that stupid there's little I can do...people being stupid who I don't have to deal with in my life have no effect on me.

[ALVAREZ6]

Call it stupid or whatever but the decline in religion and faith is why so many young punks have no regard to human life or suffering and they are going to pass it on to their kids.
lol, you are also now on the moron list.

[z0sa]

It doesn't piss me off, if you're that stupid there's little I can do...people being stupid who I don't have to deal with in my life have no effect on me.

back to the insults.

you're the moron here.

[z0sa]

making an unsubstantiated claim is not critical thinking.

dictionary meet zosa

he stated an opinion thinly veiled as a claim.

unless you care to back up "young punks" with some surveys on young punks? otherwise, back to a lack of critical thinking on your part.

[Blake]

I simply pointed out that the entire basis for this nagging discussion has been your opinion.... enlarging the font was nothing more than an attempt to highlight that basis as a point of emphasis since apparently you aren't addressing the focal points of my arguments.

restate your arguments again, and I'll address and debunk them again for you.


Regardless of anything you have said, your tirades, and smug confidence are all based on your opinion and nothing else...

me calling you a moron is not a tirade.

you enlarging font is.


That you would then use your opinion as the basis to call others morons... simply demonstrates your childish need to reaffirm and feed your insecurity complex. That's what's pathetic...

you enlarge and color your font to feed your insecurity complex.

Pathetic.


Really???

Really!!!


Seems to me like you were confused by your own games... that is a mighty strange way of suggesting that you needed to be convinced of something that you already believed.... or it could be that you are now backpedalling despite your denial???... hmmm...

I addressed my opinion and logic quite clearly based on the opinion of other posters.

could it be that you fail to read??? hmmm


You really don't need to substantiate your opinion... That's kind of the point.

No it's not.


If you call someone else out based solely on your opinion however... then at that point you need to provide a little more substance...

I provided my reasons for the apparent paradox that free will is removed if Heaven is the same today as it was when Lucifer had the free will to rise up against God.

could it be that you fail to read??? hmmm


Now regarding your particular opinion.... the four scriptures I cited clearly stated that heaven will in fact be different in the future. Your leap in logic on how that change will impact free-will is unfounded.

the four scriptures you cited say there will be "new heaven(s)"......not "different" heavens in regards to free will...

the writers are pretty clearly referring to the sky.

could it be that you fail to read??? hmmm


By the way, I thought you said you weren't arguing against the notion that heaven would change? Here you again imply that it will remain the same... Which is it? You clearly aren't reading peoples responses or following the thread... and to top it off, your out-of-context sneers aren't really doing much for your cause.

the same out of context sneers you are giving?

your hypocritical posts and failure to read are doing nothing for your cause.


When then, don't act like you are. Simple really.

Getting information from the Bible and referencing other sources is not me sending a memo that I am an expert. Simple really.


Clearly why I stated you should feel free to post it. But you're right! The existence of such a memo would require supernatural intervention, cause clearly your not much of an expert on these matters...

Memo to Phenomanul: This memo exists and you are a moron.

[Blake]

he stated an opinion thinly veiled as a claim.

great. I asked for a source to back up his thinly veiled claim.


unless you care to back up "young punks" with some surveys on young punks? otherwise, back to a lack of critical thinking on your part.

I didn't make any sort of claim concerning young punks.

Back to a lack of reading a dictionary on your part.

[z0sa]

great. I asked for a source to back up his thinly veiled claim.

and a lack of critical thinking is why you asked.

otherwise, you're just playing stupid. which is it?




I didn't make any sort of claim concerning young punks.

no, you made a claim that his claim is unsubstantiated, when asking to substantiate a thinly veiled opinion would clearly denote a lack of critical thinking.

i understand, you just wanted to shoot him down because he has no source - don't act like you weren't now. But why would you do that when everyone knows its just an opinion? because you're a douchebag?


Back to a lack of reading a dictionary on your part.

you're just easily confused. He even said, "call it stupid or whatever..." because its an opinion, regardless if he stated it as fact. You running to call him stupid immediately afterward just further proves what a self righteous prick you are.

It's not that hard to differentiate between opinions and facts, no matter how they're worded.

[peewee's lovechild]

You ask Denny's to enter your stomach.


Denny must be well hung.

[Blake]

and a lack of critical thinking is why you asked.

otherwise, you're just playing stupid. which is it?

he made a claim and didn't post a source. I asked for a source.

you're just being stupid.


no, you made a claim that his claim is unsubstantiated, when asking to substantiate a thinly veiled opinion would clearly denote a lack of critical thinking.

he made a claim and didn't post a source. I asked for a source.

you're just being stupid.


i understand, you just wanted to shoot him down because he has no source - don't act like you weren't now. But why would you do that when everyone knows its just an opinion? because you're a douchebag?

I didn't shoot him down.

he made a claim and didn't post a source. I asked for a source.

you're just being stupid.


you're just easily confused. He even said, "call it stupid or whatever..." because its an opinion, regardless if he stated it as fact. You running to call him stupid immediately afterward just further proves what a self righteous prick you are.

I didn't run to call him stupid.

he made a claim and didn't post a source. I asked for a source.

I'm calling you stupid.


It's not that hard to differentiate between opinions and facts, no matter how they're worded.

You even agreed it was worded as a claim, no matter how thinly veiled it was.

he made a claim and didn't post a source. I asked for a source.

you're just being stupid.

[baseline bum]

I think you're all morons, for arguing with z0sa. It's like trying to talk sense to 9-11 Truthers.

[z0sa]

I think you're all morons, for arguing with z0sa. It's like trying to talk sense to 9-11 Truthers.

that ones been used before. just like every one of your takes.

just keep on rehashing, man. it's what you do best. don't forget to throw in an insult every so often in a shitty attempt to convince others you actually formulate your own opinions.

whatever, this is stupid.


baseline bum, i sent you a pm.

[E20]

lol this thread made me somewhat more religous.

[ALVAREZ6]

lol this thread made me somewhat more religous.
these debates tend to do that...amplify your beliefs.

[MiamiHeat]

well, that's what happens when you argue philosophy and pointless bullshit like this

You should stick to the facts.

--------- article


- Many early Christians celebrated Jesus' birthday on JAN-6. Armenian Christians still do. In Alexandria, in what is now Egypt, the birthday of their god-man, Aion, was also celebrated on JAN-6.
bullet Christians and most Pagans eventually celebrated the birthday of their god-man on DEC-25.

- According to an ancient Christian tradition, Christ died on MAR-23 and resurrected on MAR-25. These dates agree precisely with the death and resurrection of Attis.

- Baptism was a principal ritual; it washed away a person's sins. In some rituals, Baptism was performed by sprinkling holy water on the believer; in others, the person was totally immersed.

- The most important sacrament was a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize the god-man's body and blood. His followers were accused of engaging in cannibalism.

- Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.

- Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica. Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.

- At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.

- An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." 1 In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)

- The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.

- In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.

- There were many additional points of similarity between Mithraism and Christianity. 2 St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did:

- Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.

- Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.

- Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.