The Pop Show Audio from today

[Kori Ellis]

Today on The Pop Show, Pop talked about a lot of stuff, including details on how they go about signing people, Devin's injury, the acquistion of Glenn, Manu being tired, etc.

On Glenn Robinson:
"Good shooter, good scorer. Something that what we need, especially if Devin doesn't come back to us."

"He's somebody who can put the ball in the basket. If he can get in shape and do that for us, that's good. If not, we're not any worse off."

Here's part 1 of the audio:

http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/audio/pop4-5part1.mp3

[Kori Ellis]

Pop says that Manu only played like 10% of the practice today. And they might have to make a decision not to play him in both games of the back-to-backs for the rest of the season.

[timvp]

Yeah, but don't bring him off the bench. You don't want to enrage the Manu Defenders.

[Kori Ellis]

Pop says that he's very scared of Devin playing with contact and taking a hit. He says that Devin still has pain in his legs, but has started doing sit-ups. They don't know whether they are going to put him on the playoff roster. :(

[Kori Ellis]

Here's Part 2 (early) for you guys.

http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/audio/pop4-5part2.mp3

[Kori Ellis]

Glenn might play three or four minutes tomorrow.

[BigVee]

Pop says that Manu only played like 10% of the practice today. And they might have to make a decision not to play him in both games of the back-to-backs for the rest of the season.

Agree with this completely. The only way to make sure he rests is for him not to dress. Off the bench won't matter. He will still go 100mph when he is in the game. Play him at home and selected game of back to back the rest of the season. Otherwise, the playoff run will be a short one.

[Kori Ellis]

Pop also talks about Scola, Tim's recovery, and other stuff.

[timvp]

Manu should have been playing 20-25 minutes off the bench for the last month to rest for the playoffs.

But the Spurs didn't want to start a riot, I guess.

[BigVee]

Once one of the top three spots are secure, Manu should not play period.

[whottt]

The whole thing with Manu starting is silly...

Give Manu the recognition and respect of being named a starter and then use him as a bench player like in previous seasons the rest of the game...He does deserve to have his name announced at the beginning of every game...


Also...everyone is wondering what Barry is going to do with reduced minutes...at the same time everyone says Manu needs his minutes cut back...

What's the problem? I see two solutions.

All these issues are kind of silly and easily solved...

Although I do think that Manu and Barry have a chemistry when they are on the court together...they play the same style of basketball, except Manu is tougher and more of a penetrator...but they both crave that uptempo passing style...not sure how much it helps the team to give Barry minutes from Manu...but it will help Manu and Barry individually.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm more concerned that Devin might not get back than worrying about Manu's minutes. The Spurs are smart. Manu will get his rest.

[smeagol]

timvp, I don't get your logic.

If you want him to play less than 30 minutes, he can still do that starting. Actually, that's what he averages. 30 mpg. That's what he played the entire season (on average) as a starter. Cut his minutes to 25, but let him start.

In my view, making him come of the bench could be more counter productive. He has said he (like 99% of the NBA players) likes to start.

For the record. I don't care if he starts as long as he plays most of the 4th Q. But what I believe is of no consequence. What matters is what Pop and Manu think is better for the team.

[timvp]

Manu can play more important segments of the game coming off the bench. But we've gone through this before. The Manu Defenders (and apparently Manu himself) say that he doesn't want to come off the bench.

Wasn't it AI who got bashed by the national media for saying he didn't want to come off the bench?

Hmmmmmmmm.

[BigVee]

The way Devin's back is described I would be surprised if he came back this year. Sounds like off season rehab/surgery maybe. He is too young to jeopardize his career...lots of basketball ahead of him. They need to be overly cautious.

[Solid D]

John Havlicek played as a 6th man and as a starter. No one can remember which games he started and which ones he came off the bench but he finished all the Celts games. Hondo was too clutch not to finish games, but he went all out all the time just like Manu does now.

The minutes, in total, are important to watch and not necessarily whether those minutes are starter's minutes (or not). Does it really make a difference if the Spurs use Gino in the 1st 6 minutes of the 1st quarter...or the 2nd 6 minutes of the 1st quarter? Right now, Pop plays Manu the first 6 and Brent the 2nd 6.

Starting games makes little difference on Manu's body. It's total minutes.

[Kori Ellis]

The way Devin's back is described I would be surprised if he came back this year. Sounds like off season rehab/surgery maybe. He is too young to jeopardize his career...lots of basketball ahead of him. They need to be overly cautious.

Ludden's article a few days ago sounded pretty optimistic about Devin -- even siting the 12th as a target date for his return. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

*hoping the pessimism is CIA so that other teams forget about him in free agency*

[smeagol]

Wasn't it AI who got bashed by the national media for saying he didn't want to come off the bench?

Hmmmmmmmm.
C'mon man!

What a stupid analogy.

AI didn't want to come of the bench for totally different reasons.

As I said before, I don't care as long as he's on the floor in crunch time.

[BigVee]

Ludden's article a few days ago sounded pretty optimistic about Devin -- even siting the 12th as a target date for his return. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

*hoping the pessimism is CIA so that other teams forget about him in free agency*

Great potential, sure would hate to see him really get hurt...even though he would be a big plus in the playoffs. So many guys that played too soon with back problems were never the same...and Devin's game is all about athleticism..

[timvp]

John Havlicek played as a 6th man and as a starter. No one can remember which games he started and which ones he came off the bench but he finished all the Celts games. Hondo was too clutch not to finish games, but he went all out all the time just like Manu does now.

The minutes, in total, are important to watch and not necessarily whether those minutes are starter's minutes (or not). Does it really make a difference if the Spurs use Gino in the 1st 6 minutes of the 1st quarter...or the 2nd 6 minutes of the 1st quarter? Right now, Pop plays Manu the first 6 and Brent the 2nd 6.

Starting games makes little difference on Manu's body. It's total minutes.

Exactly. But if Manu starts and plays the fourth quarter, that's already 24 minutes (6 at the start of each half and the fourth). And that's not even counting any minutes in the second quarter.

Now if you bring him off the bench, then you can play him at the end of first and third quarters and then most of second and fourth quarters ... while keeping his minutes closer to 20-25 than 30.

:smokin

[smeagol]

John Havlicek played as a 6th man and as a starter. No one can remember which games he started and which ones he came off the bench but he finished all the Celts games. Hondo was too clutch not to finish games, but he went all out all the time just like Manu does now.

The minutes, in total, are important to watch and not necessarily whether those minutes are starter's minutes (or not). Does it really make a difference if the Spurs use Gino in the 1st 6 minutes of the 1st quarter...or the 2nd 6 minutes of the 1st quarter? Right now, Pop plays Manu the first 6 and Brent the 2nd 6.

Starting games makes little difference on Manu's body. It's total minutes.
Agreed with Solid.

The most important minutes are the ones in crunch time. The rest of the minutes are important depending on who you are playing against and the flow of the game.

[timvp]

C'mon man!

What a stupid analogy.

AI didn't want to come of the bench for totally different reasons.


What were those reasons? I honestly forgot.

Inform me.

[BigVee]

Once we win 4 games, Manu shouldn't come off the bench.....at all.

[BigVee]

What were those reasons? I honestly forgot.

Inform me.

He didn't participate in a shoot around after he had missed the previous game because of injury. He told Chris Ford he was ready to go and Ford told him he would come off the bench....he took off his uniform and said he wasn't playing. That is AI's version.

[TNT21]

Does Manu need to be in better shape? I know he plays hard and goes 110% every time he's on the court, but if he knows that he plays like this why doesn't he train harder so that he can withstand the rigors of the NBA season?

[smeagol]

What were those reasons? I honestly forgot.

Inform me.
There was a feud going on with the coach, Chris Ford. Therefore, sensitivities were running high.

I think the reason he was benched was that he missed the plane comming back form the ASG and he missed practice.

I believe he was benched a second time. I don't remember why.

[Solid D]

I know. How about this? Start Manu so that he can steal the Jump Ball, wherever it is tipped and go in for the first points of the game...as he has so adeptly learned how to do. Then pull him out after 2 minutes. Then manage them using timvp's formula for rest until the playoffs start. :hat

[timvp]

I'd go for it.

But would the Manu Defenders?


QUESTION.

[smeagol]

Wasn't it AI who got bashed by the national media for saying he didn't want to come off the bench?

Hmmmmmmmm.

I think part of the reason he got bashed by the media was what he said after the game, and the way he said it. Here's a quote I found in an old article:

"A lot of people might look at it like it's a selfish thing or something like that," Iverson said. "Why wouldn't I start? I'm the franchise player here. I don't know any franchise players that come off the bench. I don't know any Olympian that comes off the bench. I don't know any All-Star that comes off the bench. I don't know any former MVP that comes off the bench. I don't know any three-time scoring champion that comes off the bench.

"I don't know any first team All-NBA (player) that comes off the bench. Why Allen Iverson? Why should I come off the bench? ... I think it is an insult to me. Who I am as a player, who I am to this organization, who I've been to this organization, that's an insult to me to come off the bench if I'm a starter."

Do you think Manu would say something remotely similar to what AI said?

Actually, when he started coming of the the bench last year to coddle Hedo, he wrote an article which can still be read on his website, where he basically said coming of the bench was not a punishment, that he was going to do what the coach said, etc.

[whottt]

TimVP, comparing what AI did to Manu is just flat out wrong...

IIRC AI refused to come off the bench and said he didn't like his coach...

Manu did come off the bench...

There's a difference between not wanting to do something and actually not doing it because you don't want too...

Manu has never refused to do anything the team has asked of him, he's also never verbally attacked his coach because of a coaching deicsion...

[spursfan05]

does this mean glen robinson might start

[smeagol]

I know. How about this? Start Manu so that he can steal the Jump Ball, wherever it is tipped and go in for the first points of the game...as he has so adeptly learned how to do. Then pull him out after 2 minutes. Then manage them using timvp's formula for rest until the playoffs start. :hat
I like Solid's solution.

Can someone call Pop?

[timvp]

Whottt, I had forgotten what happened with AI. That's why I asked for backup.

But we got to this subject because every time I say Manu should come off the bench, posters rush in saying Manu doesn't like coming off the bench.

Well neither did AI. But AI made the mistake of being honest on why he didn't want to come off the bench.

[Rick Von Braun]

I really don't understand your logic.

The goal is to avoid playing him more than x minutes continuously. That is what Pop and the Spurs have been doing the entire year.

If you want to maximize the resting time of a player in a particular game, you play him at the beggining and at the end of the game, in order to maximize the total time span you can play him. The larger the time span you use, the larger the rest it is possible to schedule for any total x amount of minutes of playing time. If he doesn't start, you are reducing the total time span you can play him, and therefore, he would have less resting time for the same amount of minutes played. This is a basic scheduling problem.

It is obvious that if the goal is to maximize the resting time in between playing periods, you have to maximize the total time span that you use the player for any x total amount of minutes you want to use.

If this is not clear, I'll give you some scheduling examples, but I am a little busy now.

[smeagol]

timvp, do you think TD, KG, Lebron, Kobe, TMac, etc would like coming of the bench?

[timvp]

Duncan came off the bench last season.

He didn't have a problem with it.

[Kori Ellis]

Pop has even said that he considered bringing Manu off the bench when he was coming back from the groin injury, but didn't do it because he thought he might tighten up from sitting in the beginning if he didn't start.

So it's not unfathomable right now, especially if the Spurs get locked into the two seed soon, that Manu may play very limited minutes -- yes, even off the bench.

I understand that Manu is tired and that he gives 110% and that he has played a lot of basketball in the last few years. But it's starting to irk me that he's too tired to even practice. It's not about his groin bother him -- he's just tired. And that sucks.

[timvp]

I really don't understand your logic.

The goal is to avoid playing him more than x minutes continuously. That is what Pop and the Spurs have been doing the entire year.


Actually, the goal should be playing him the least amount of minutes, period.



If you want to maximize the resting time of a player in a particular game, you play him at the beggining and at the end of the game, in order to maximize the total time span you can play him. The larger the time span you use, the larger the rest it is possible to schedule for any total x amount of minutes of playing time. If he doesn't start, you are reducing the total time span you can play him, and therefore, he would have less resting time for the same amount of minutes played. This is a basic scheduling problem.

Incorrect. The total time span starts when the ball is tipped and ends when the game is over. If he doesn't start, he's resting on the sidelines during a time when he'd usually be playing.

[Ginofan]

Duncan came off the bench last season.

He didn't have a problem with it.

Tim came off the bench ONE game. You're talking about taking a guy who has been rewarded by his play and then taking that award away and not just for ONE game. No one is going to LIKE that. But he WOULD do it...he's already done it. That was pretty messed up to compare him to AI and that situation. He does what's best for the team, and if him coming off the bench was what was best for the team, then he'd be doing it. Obviously Pop and Co. feel differently.

[Ginofan]

Pop has even said that he considered bringing Manu off the bench when he was coming back from the groin injury, but didn't do it because he thought he might tighten up from sitting in the beginning if he didn't start.

So it's not unfathomable right now, especially if the Spurs get locked into the two seed soon, that Manu may play very limited minutes -- yes, even off the bench.

I understand that Manu is tired and that he gives 110% and that he has played a lot of basketball in the last few years. But it's starting to irk me that he's too tired to even practice. It's not about his groin bother him -- he's just tired. And that sucks.

It's got to be a little bit of the groin though too right? I mean it's not gonna fully heal in that short amount of time, especially with him playing heavy minutes. The tiredness worries me, and yeah it does suck but if they could just rest him on these back to backs or heck even consecutive games it'd really help him out I think.

[Kori Ellis]

It's got to be a little bit of the groin though too right?

Pop and Manu both say it's not. They both have repeated that it's not the groin; that he just doesn't have anything left in the tank.

[timvp]

Tim came off the bench ONE game. You're talking about taking a guy who has been rewarded by his play and then taking that award away and not just for ONE game. No one is going to LIKE that. But he WOULD do it...he's already done it. That was pretty messed up to compare him to AI and that situation. He does what's best for the team, and if him coming off the bench was what was best for the team, then he'd be doing it. Obviously Pop and Co. feel differently.

First of all, look at the question I was answering.

Second of all, since when has starting a basketball game become a reward? I don't get where it came from that coming off the bench is a slap in the face. Look at all the great sixth men in NBA history. They didn't come off the bench as some sort of punishment, it was to better utilize them.

Who Pop starts should be a strategic move.

Not some sort of reward.

[smeagol]

Duncan came off the bench last season.

He didn't have a problem with it.
Only once.

Keep bringing good examples and better analogies to the table.

In any case, as I said before, I'm not against Manu coming of the bench, if everybody concludes its the best way to help the team.

[Ginofan]

So it's not a reward? Manu could've played like crap in 03 and still be the starter in the 04 season? I don't see it like that. Coming off the bench isn't a slap in the face but starting the season as a starter and then moving to the bench...that isn't exactly "happy sparkly good feeling" stuff. Ya know?

[smeagol]

If the situation is so serious, he shouldn't come of the bench, he should be benched entire games.

[Kori Ellis]

he should be benched entire games.

Yeah, that's basically what Pop said today. He may not play in both games of back-to-backs. I wish that he would have played less minutes per game throughout the season, and perhaps he wouldn't have been so tired at this point.

Either way, it's water under the bridge now. They really need to do something about his conditioning this summer. I understand that he's not going to playing international ball this summer. But I can't help to think that if he plays 30+ mpg throughout next season and doesn't change his conditioning, then he'll be tired again at this time next year.

[Nikos]

Why is his conditioning so poor? Is he physically weak in general, or does he just not know how to pace himself? Combined with the fact he has played a lot of basketball since 2002-03?

What is it?

[Kori Ellis]

Why is his conditioning so poor? Is he physically weak in general, or does he just not know how to pace himself? Combined with the fact he has played a lot of basketball since 2002-03?

What is it?


I'm sure it's a lot of things. Too much basketball. Skinny. Can't pace himself (and I don't want him too).

[Nikos]

This is what I mentioned in the other thread, why no response there?

Anyhow, I mentioned his lack of upper body strength might be a reason that his offense can be ineffective at times, especially when he is tired. If he can slowly put on a little muscle this off-season that might help. Be worth a try. Of course muscle can hinder a players athleticism, but I think it can help if it is put on slowly (year by year).

Does he even attempt to do any sort of muscle building program in the off-season?

[timvp]

Only once.

Keep bringing good examples and better analogies to the table.


You asked the question. I was only answering it.

My bad.

[timvp]

So it's not a reward? Manu could've played like crap in 03 and still be the starter in the 04 season?

If the Spurs would have won the championship last season, Hedo would probably be starting right now with Manu coming off the bench.

[Rick Von Braun]

Actually, the goal should be playing him the least amount of minutes, period.




Incorrect. The total time span starts when the ball is tipped and ends when the game is over. If he doesn't start, he's resting on the sidelines during a time when he'd usually be playing. What you don't understand is that for any fix total amount of minutes you want to play him (this is any given constant you want), the goal is to maximize the resting time in between playing minutes. Resting time before the first playing interval or after the last playing interval are not considered because he is not resting from a previous playing interval or saving energy for the next playing interval. At the beginning of the game he is already rested, so he doesn't need to rest. At the end of the game, even if he is dead tired it doesn't matter, because he will have time to recover for the next game. The critical issue here is the resting time between playing intervals. You want to maximize this in order to maximize player productivity when he is on the field during the game. If a player is too tired after a particular playing interval, and the resting time is not sufficient, the player will decrease productivity in the next playing interval. Let me reemphasize that the total amount of minutes played should remain constant for whatever scheduling policy you enforce.

For example, let's assume you want to play him for 24 minutes. This is the total time you want to play him, and this is a given constant. What is the worst and optimal scheduling policy that minimizes and maximizes resting time in between playing intervals?

Assuming you don't have constraints as to the maximum playing interval (allow me this to make the explanation simpler), the worst scheduling would be to play him 3rd and 4th quarter of the game. He would rest the 1st and 2nd quarter, and then play continuously for 24 minutes (any two consecutive quarters would do, not considering timeouts or half period resting). This policy would give him 0 minutes of resting time between playing intervals, because he would play just one big time interval. The best sheduling policy would be to play him the entire 1st quarter, rest him the 2nd and 3rd quarter, and then playing him the last quarter. The total amount of time played would be 24 minutes (same as the previous case), BUT the resting time between playing intervals would be maximized to 24 minutes (instead of 0 minutes as the worst case above).

Of course, there are other constraints like the maximum playing interval y, critical parts of the game, crunch time etc. The strategy that yields maximum benefits still consists of playing the player at the beginning and end of the game, not only in terms of maximizing resting time between playing periods but also to increase the flexibility of a dynamic scheduling policy determined by a coach (you can mathematically prove the last statement, but not in this forum). This is a basic constraint scheduling problem.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'd go for it.

But would the Manu Defenders?


QUESTION.

Whats with the "Manu defenders" crap? All you're doing with this post is trying to cover your ass so that every time someone tries to disagree about the subject and explain his or her reasoning they are immediately "Manu defenders". Why don't you just post your opinion and we supposed "Manu defenders" will post ours, no need to put labels. HOWEVER, I do agree that Manu will not be able to play the rest of the season at this pace, at least not this season. Coming off the bench isn't so bad, and I agree that Manu productiveness is better used in the 4th quarter. Although I think Manu would see it as sort of a demotion LOL. I say start him, but play him as a bench player and put him in only in key moments when he is needed. Someone already said this, so I'm just agreeing.

[Jimcs50]

The DRob question came to my mind too.

:)

[timvp]

Interesting point, RVB.


Resting time before the first playing interval or after the last playing interval are not considered because he is not resting from a previous playing interval or saving energy for the next playing interval.

I think this is the flaw in the logic. If he is resting to start the game, he is saving energy for the next playing interval. It also shortens the game for him, so there is less chance that he will play extended minutes.

Also, if the Spurs can rest him at the end of the second quarter and the beginning of the third quarter, that gives him a huge rest that isn't available if he's a starter. That could give him at least 30 minutes of actual time that he can rest before the necessary second half surge.

[timvp]

Whats with the "Manu defenders" crap? All you're doing with this post is trying to cover your ass so that every time someone tries to disagree about the subject and explain his or her reasoning they are immediately "Manu defenders". Why don't you just post your opinion and we supposed "Manu defenders" will post ours, no need to put labels.

I didn't know it was a bad thing being a Manu Defender. People call me out for defending Rose, AJ and others and I don't get offended.

But if it comes across that way, I'll bench that term and won't use it anymore.

:)

[Jimcs50]

I am a Manu defender. I'd defend him til my death.

:)

[gregpschneid]

You guys have to realize how much a basketball season can take away from you physically. Anyone here actually played competitive basketball? It's very difficult to maintain your strength thoughout a season and you can even lose muscle if you are over training( I've seen people lose 20lbs of muscle through a season). The nba season is way too long, especially if you play competively during the summer!

I think that the number of games hurts the development of players in the nba, since they miss out on practice time. I really think they should cut some games, but this will never happen.

Manu is simply overtrained right now and fatigued, when this happens you lose strength and are more likely to injure yourself.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I didn't know it was a bad thing being a Manu Defender. People call me out for defending Rose, AJ and others and I don't get offended.

But if it comes across that way, I'll bench that term and won't use it anymore.

:)
No prob, its just that IMO, "Manu defender" sort of implies defending Manu without much thought or reason other than liking him. I like the way you handled the issue though, spoken like a reasonable and thoughtful person, shows class. Not many people would have responded that way. :lol :tu You alright in my book

[Rick Von Braun]

Interesting point, RVB.

I think this is the flaw in the logic. If he is resting to start the game, he is saving energy for the next playing interval.
Nope, he is not. This point is crucial. Let me give you another example. Let's say you have to run three 1-mile segments in a running competition for a total of 3 miles. You have to run the first mile as fast as you can, then rest for a certain period of time, then run the 2nd segment, then rest for a certain period of time, and finally run the last segment. Your total time (performance) is measured by timing each segment run, and summing up all your times for each segment. Starting time and resting time is not considered, only actual running time is important for performance purposes. Also assume you go all out in each segment, and run as fast as you can, and you haven't run in the previous 24hrs of the competition. The competion starts at 10:00am.

Now I'll give 2 options. In the first one, you start running at 10:00am, run the first mile as fast as you can, then rest for 9 minutes, then run the 2nd mile as fast as you can, then rest for another 9 minutes, and you finally run the last run. In the second one, you start running at 10:12am, run the first mile as fast as you can, then rest for 3 minutes, run the 2nd mile as fast as you can, then rest for 3 minutes, and finally run the last mile. Which of the 2 options you think you will perform better?

Exactly. The first 12 minutes of rest are irrelevant, because you are already well rested (24hrs). The difference between 24 hrs or 24:12 hrs is insignificant. The difference between resting 9 minutes or 3 minutes in between mile segments is 3 times larger. I hope you catch my drift now.

Let's assume Pop wants to play Manu 30 minutes and he wants to play him in three segments of 10 minutes each (this is just a simple example to illustrate the point, I am not suggesting this strategy!). In the first option, Pop plays him at the start of the 1st quarter for 10 minutes, then rests him for 9 minutes, then plays him 10 more minutes, rests him for 9 minutes and finally plays him the last 10 minutes. In the second option, Pop rests Manu the entire first quarter, then plays him 10 minutes, rests him for 3 minutes, plays him another 10 minutes, rests him for 3 minutes, and finally plays him 10 minutes. The total number of minutes played in boht cases is 30 minutes, but it is quite obvious that Manu will be more rested by Pop using the 1st option than the 2nd one. The 1st quarter rest is irrelevant, because Manu starts the game with sufficient rest (at least 24hrs) and 12 more minutes won't make a difference. Having 3 times more resting time between playing intervals does make a significant difference.



It also shortens the game for him, so there is less chance that he will play extended minutes.
I don't think this relevant. Pop is very strict and stubborn with respect to the total number of minutes a player must play, in particular when the player is recovering from injury and/or not well rested. After the injury, Manu played a certain number of predetermined minutes that Pop had in mind, and he was very strict to enforce it, independently of the final game's result or Manu's performance (see Manu's minutes starting with the Detroit's game). The slow increase was strictly enforced.



Also, if the Spurs can rest him at the end of the second quarter and the beginning of the third quarter, that gives him a huge rest that isn't available if he's a starter. That could give him at least 30 minutes of actual time that he can rest before the necessary second half surge.
That is fine, but it is completely orthogonal to start using him from the beginning of the game. Manu doesn't have to start the 3rd quarter, but it is important for him to start in the 1st quarter in order to maximize the resting time between playing intervals.

Cheers!