Change: Bush vs. Obama on protests

[DarrinS]

http://theconservatives.com/blog/2009/aug/05/study-contrast/





A Study in Contrast
By Brian Faughnan | Aug. 5, 2009 10:49 a.m.


Given the debate over the legitimacy of protests against the Democratic agenda on health care, cap-and-trade, and the economy generally, I thought it might be instructive to look at how the last administration addressed protests against its policies.

White House officials meet with Cindy Sheehan and other anti-war protesters:


About 70 anti-war protesters shouted "bring the troops home" from Iraq near President Bush's ranch on Saturday, prompting two White House officials to come out to meet with mothers who lost children in combat in Iraq.

National Security Adviser Steven Hadley and Deputy White House chief of staff Joe Hagin listened to the concerns of Cindy Sheehan and five or six other mothers in a meeting that lasted about 45 minutes, White House spokesman Trent Duffy said. Duffy said Sheehan told the two officials she appreciated the meeting.


White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer on Anti-war protesters:

I think the president welcomes the fact that we are a democracy and people in the United States, unlike Iraq, are free to protest and to make their case known,"

White House Press Secretary Trent Duffy on anti-war protests:

The American people have a right to protest, and the right of free speech is something that we're fighting for in this war on terror, to preserve that right of free speech. So the President welcomes opinions from all Americans.


Rumsfeld stops security from removing protester:


Protesters repeatedly interrupted Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld during a speech Thursday, and one man, a former CIA analyst, accused him of lying about Iraq prewar intelligence in an unusually vociferous display of antiwar sentiment.

“Why did you lie to get us into a war that caused these kind of casualties and was not necessary?” asked Ray McGovern, the former analyst, during a question-and-answer session.

“I did not lie,” shot back Rumsfeld, who waved off security guards ready to remove McGovern from the hall at the Southern Center for International Studies.


White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan on Iraq protests:

The President talked about some of this the other day in remarks at the Pentagon. He recognizes that there are differences of opinion on Iraq and our role in the broader Middle East. Some people want us to withdraw from Iraq and withdraw from the Middle East. They are well-intentioned.


Interesting. How does that compare with the Obama White House?

The Democratic National Committee addresses health care protests:


The Republicans and their allied groups – desperate after losing two consecutive elections and every major policy fight on Capitol Hill – are inciting angry mobs of a small number of rabid right wing extremists funded by K Street Lobbyists to disrupt thoughtful discussions about the future of health care in America taking place in Congressional Districts across the country.

However, much like we saw at the McCain-Palin rallies last year where crowds were baited with cries of 'socialist,' 'communist,' and where the birthers movement was born – these mobs of extremists are not interested in having a thoughtful discussion about the issues – but like some Republican leaders have said – they are interested in ‘breaking’ the President and destroying his Presidency.

These mobs are bussed in by well funded, highly organized groups run by Republican operatives and funded by the special interests who are desperately trying to stop the agenda for change the President was elected to bring to Washington. Despite the headline grabbing nature of these angry mobs and their disruptions of events, they are not reflective of where the American people are on the issues – or the hundreds of thousands of thoughtful discussions taking place around kitchen tables, water coolers and in homes.

The right wing extremists’ use of things like devil horns on pictures of our elected officials, hanging members of Congress in effigy, breathlessly questioning the President's citizenship and the use of Nazi SS symbols and the like just shows how outside of the mainstream the Republican Party and their allies are. This type of anger and discord did not serve Republicans well in 2008 – and it is bound to backfire again.




White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs on health care protests:


"I hope people will take a jaundiced eye to what is clearly the Astroturf nature of grass-roots lobbying," said White House press secretary Robert Gibbs during a morning off-camera session in his office with reporters.

"This is manufactured anger," he said.


Well, you can say one thing for the Obama administration: they have brought genuine change to the way the White House addresses dissent.

[TMTTRIO]

Interesting now that the White House is so involved in wanting to find out everyone who sends fishy e-mails now.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

[Wild Cobra]

TMTTRIO, with all the other lies coming out of this White House, how are we to believe that?

Darrin,

Nice article find.

[SonOfAGun]

The funny thing is, it is normal people speaking up. The ones who have been silent for a long time. It's just that Obama is being so aggressive with the far-left agenda, that these policies are starting to get personal.

The more Obama and these snakes start to lie about who is speaking up, the more normal people will see the lies and begin to push even harder.

[Wild Cobra]

The funny thing is, it is normal people speaking up. The ones who have been silent for a long time. It's just that Obama is being so aggressive with the far-left agenda, that these policies are starting to get personal.

The more Obama and these snakes start to lie about who is speaking up, the more normal people will see the lies and begin to push even harder.
Yep, it's great, isn't it?

I think it's telling that they start calling conservatives who believe in the 2nd amendment someone to watch out for. Isn't that the same as stating that they plan to change the government to a form that deserves to be overthrown?

[DarrinS]

Interesting now that the White House is so involved in wanting to find out everyone who sends fishy e-mails now.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].



WTF? :wow

[Wild Cobra]

WTF? :wow
Maybe we should send all the leftist propaganda to that e-mail address?

[clambake]

lol normal people

[George Gervin's Afro]

WTF? :wow

I would like to know who is lying and spreading misleading propoganda.

[SonOfAGun]

I would like to know who is lying and spreading misleading propoganda.

Rhymes with Ollama. :lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

http://www.globegazette.com/articles/2005/03/31/state/doc424b869e9f98c982362937.txt

Bush brings reform plan to Iowans
CEDAR RAPIDS (AP) ? President Bush held a town hall meeting in this eastern Iowa city on Wednesday to advance his campaign for Social Security reform, saying he would be stubborn in sticking to his plan.

Bush said changes are needed for younger workers to have a retirement system in place.

"Social Security has worked for a lot of people," the president said. "The problem is there's a hole in the safety net for the generation that is coming up."

Bush delivered his message to a carefully screened crowd of about 1,000 people at Kirkwood Community College. He also spoke live on two of the state's largest radio stations.

The president has made Social Security his top domestic priority and said his message is beginning to resonate.

"People are beginning to hear our message, that we have a problem," Bush said. "This issue is beginning to permeate."

According to Social Security trustees, the system will be paying out more than it takes in by 2017 and could go broke by 2041.

"You've got more people getting greater benefits and living longer, with fewer people paying into the system. That doesn't work," Bush said.

The president is calling on Congress to act now to resolve future funding problems. He told the crowd in Cedar Rapids that he was inviting all ideas to the table.

"The longer we wait, the harder it's going to be for younger workers to make up the difference," he said.

Bush was accompanied by Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, who heads the influential Senate Finance Committee.

"The president and I are like a builder and an architect," Grassley said. "We agree on a blueprint."

Grassley has said that the ability of Congress to approve revisions to the Social Security system depends on Bush's ability to persuade voters that changes are needed.

The veteran Iowa senator has said delaying action even for a year would cost $600 billion.

"We've got to turn up the heat on Washington, D.C., to see this as an issue," Grassley said. "Doing nothing is not an option."

Also attending the events were Reps. Jim Nussle and Jim Leach, both R-Iowa, who have yet to stake out positions on Social Security reform.

With that in mind, True Majority Action, a nonprofit group opposed to the president's plan, began running radio spots in Iowa on Wednesday.

"This makes it easy for Iowans to tell their Congress members not to risk privatizing Social Security," said Duane Peterson, a spokesman for the group.

As part of the revision, Bush wants to allow workers younger than 55 to divert part of their Social Security taxes, up to 4 percent, to private investment accounts, such as stocks, bonds or mutual funds.

At the forum, Bush brought along friendly backers from all generations to urge him on. They included a farmer from near Pella, a nurse from Cedar Rapids and a 20-year-old Kirkwood student from Marion.

Jeff Brown, 36, a University of Illinois economics professor, said he has been studying Social Security for 10 years.

"Social Security faces very severe financial problems and they start pretty soon," Brown said.

Dennis Bogart, 33, who began farming with his father near Pella in 1995, said he favors personal retirement accounts because he wants greater control over this own money.

"I want that money to be available to my son and daughter," he said.

He said he has little faith that Social Security in its current form will survive.

Forum attendees were carefully selected. Only those given tickets were allowed to attend and tickets were limited to Bush supporters known to organizers.Critics were working to make their voices known as well. A small group of protesters was kept well away from Bush's event, but officials from AARP, the nation's largest group representing older Americans, held a news conference earlier in the day to announce results of a member survey.

Their poll showed 60 percent of AARP members oppose private accounts.
Bush, who will turn 62 when he leaves office in 2008, said those nearing retirement have a moral obligation to protect younger workers.

"People are beginning to understand that the promises made to my generation may not be kept for others," he said.

So how are the different again? Bush didn't allow dissent and the Dems are being heckled at theirs...hmmm

[DarrinS]

So how are the different again? Bush didn't allow dissent and the Dems are being heckled at theirs...hmmm


Are you attempting to make sense?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Rhymes with Ollama. :lol

Lies? oh wait it must be one of those 'old people will be refused care' lies. No where does it specify that nor has anyone ever advocated that but,but,but consevrtaives are spreading that crap around as if it is true.. I guess lying is ok if your side is doing it.

[101A]

I would like to know who is lying and spreading misleading propoganda.

Yeah.

The Government ought to put a stop to that!

[SonOfAGun]

Lies? oh wait it must be one of those 'old people will be refused care' lies. No where does it specify that nor has anyone ever advocated that but,but,but consevrtaives are spreading that crap around as if it is true.. I guess lying is ok if your side is doing it.

I wish you a long life full of the highest quality pain pillin' health care.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Are you attempting to make sense?

Ok, I'll slow down for you..the premise of this article ,for which you agree with, is misleading and wrong. I just posted one article that proves thnis thread is misleading and untrue. Can you even tell when you are lying anymore?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yeah.

The Government ought to put a stop to that!

Or they should be at least be able to respond to it..oh wait they can't according to you..never mind special interest rule the day woohooo! Truth or not be damned!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Sorry GGA I can't refute your post so I will try and insult you

[Supergirl]

WHat part of "bussing people in" to make it look like the health care proposals are truly being opposed by AMericans do people not understand?

it's like the same damn woman at all the "rallies."

that's not dissent, folks. that's manipulation and deceit. it's the republican way.

But hey, it reeks of desperation. The Republicans know they're on the wrong side of history on this one. They just can't get out of their own way. The vast majority of Americans aren't falling for their lies.

[101A]

Or they should be at least be able to respond to it..oh wait they can't according to you..never mind special interest rule the day woohooo! Truth or not be damned!

No. I don't think he is even trying to make sense.

[101A]

Or they should be at least be able to respond to it..oh wait they can't according to you..never mind special interest rule the day woohooo! Truth or not be damned!


Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[George Gervin's Afro]

No. I don't think he is even trying to make sense.

Thinking again? Wow that's fantastic!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Ok we'll slow down. Does the WH have the right to confront anyone who is sending out false information?

[101A]

WHat part of "bussing people in" to make it look like the health care proposals are truly being opposed by AMericans do people not understand?


Look, you aren't on the right wing mailing lists.

I am. I get their propaganda; know what it looks like and says.

Nowhere have I seen ANYTHING about a bus ride ANYWHERE.

Put up some proof that that is happening; that there is a master organizing effort by powerful people (RNC, Pharma or Insurance Industry) to do this, or stfu about it. Like minded citizens, getting together to express grievances with the govt. is a long-standing tradition in this country. See: Constitution, United States, First Ammedment: Re: Freedom to Assemble.

Strawmen, as has been discussed ad nauseum on this board, are easy to defeat.

[101A]

Ok we'll slow down. Does the WH have the right to confront anyone who is sending out false information?


As far as I know they have the same rights as any other citizen. However, being who they are, they should be prudent in exercising their rights.

The White House is acting purely politically here; attack the messenger(s) so that the story is about paranoid, middle aged, angry, out of shape white folk, instead of being about the problems those citizens have with the President's agenda and proposed policies on healthcare - which based on polls are, to a large degree, not overwhelmingly popular.

Republicans have, of course, done it; labeling anti-war or anti-Patriot Act protestors as "Un American" most recently, and as "Dope Smoking, free loving hippies" in Nixon's day. Niether party is particulary high-minded; and both dislike effective criticism, and are willing to do whatever it takes to silence, or undermine it.

[George Gervin's Afro]

As far as I know they have the same rights as any other citizen. However, being who they are, they should be prudent in exercising their rights.

The White House is acting purely politically here; attack the messenger(s) so that the story is about paranoid, middle aged, angry, out of shape white folk, instead of being about the problems those citizens have with the President's agenda and proposed policies on healthcare - which based on polls are, to a large degree, not overwhelmingly popular.

Republicans have, of course, done it; labeling anti-war or anti-Patriot Act protestors as "Un American" most recently, and as "Dope Smoking, free loving hippies" in Nixon's day. Niether party is particulary high-minded; and both dislike effective criticism, and are willing to do whatever it takes to silence, or undermine it.

I agree with what your are saying but it's ludicrous , as some of the righties here claim, that this is something that this WH is guilty of when they ignored their guy doing similar things. I do think this is pushing the envelope however I don't blame this administration in trying to figure out where all of the misinformation is coming from. All we hear is old people are not going to get care and that everyone is going to lose thier health coverage etc... that's not true nor is fair to let that go unchallenged. This is the same thing that happened in Clinton's first term and nothing changed.

[101A]

All we hear is old people are not going to get care and that everyone is going to lose thier health coverage etc... that's not true nor is fair to let that go unchallenged. This is the same thing that happened in Clinton's first term and nothing changed.

Obama is on record as saying he is for a single payor, universal, healthcare system.

A strong argument can be made that the government competing with private insurers, especially as that competition is defined in the current proposal in the house, that THAT could lead to just what the President has said he wants.

What a politician DOES is always more important that what he/she SAY'S - so people don't fully trust what Obama is saying now.

Many, many Americans DO NOT want a universal/single payor healthcare system. They are fundamentally, strongly opposed to such a system.

I, myself, believe that the plan currently in the House will, inevitably lead to a Universal, single-payor healthcare system. No one has told me to believe that, or connected the dots for me. I came to that conclusion all on my own. If I say so, in a loud voice, I am not spreading misinformation - or misleading anyone. I believe the President and his allies are the ones doing that.

(and I take back the last post in the other thread - we're now having a political discussion)

[Supergirl]

I, myself, believe that the plan currently in the House will, inevitably lead to a Universal, single-payor healthcare system. No one has told me to believe that, or connected the dots for me. I came to that conclusion all on my own. If I say so, in a loud voice, I am not spreading misinformation - or misleading anyone. I believe the President and his allies are the ones doing that.

well, that's fine and well, but it's a mighty irrational feeling ("belief") you've got going on there, and irrational feelings make for lousy policy.

there is amble evidence to suggest that there is NO WAY IN HELL America ever winds up with a single payer system, whether you want them to or not. Our political system will just never let such a proposal through.

[101A]

there is amble evidence to suggest that there is NO WAY IN HELL America ever winds up with a single payer system, whether you want them to or not. Our political system will just never let such a proposal through.

When the govt. puts all other carriers out of business, there will only be a single payor left.

In 2003 our President said that he was in favor, and was working toward a Single Payor System. His party has a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, and has solid control of the House, which is headed by a VERY liberal Senator from San Francisco.

If there was EVER a time that a path to single payor could be etched in stone; this is it.

Excuse me if I don't take your (relatively well established naive) word for it.

[Supergirl]

When the govt. puts all other carriers out of business, there will only be a single payor left.

In 2003 our President said that he was in favor, and was working toward a Single Payor System. His party has a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, and has solid control of the House, which is headed by a VERY liberal Senator from San Francisco.

If there was EVER a time that a path to single payor could be etched in stone; this is it.

Excuse me if I don't take your (relatively well established naive) word for it.

actually, i suspect i know more about health care than most people in this forum, but that's another point altogether and not one that warrants debate.

Obama has already ruled out single payer system - he has said he isn't striving for one and doesn't expect one to come out. The Blue Dog Democrats have much more control than anyone at this point, and they would never sign off on such a plan.

Where does this fear that a govt plan would drive everyone else out of business come from? Why does it come out of the mouths of the same people who think the govt can't run anything? if you believe in the market at all, then you have to believe that if the govt enters the health care marketplace, only the most affordable and best run plans will come out OK in the end. monopolies are never a good thing for an economy or for people.

What is being proposed is REGULATION of the kind of profits CEOs can make off of other people's health insurance, and REGULATION of the kind of money insurance companies and doctors can charge for medical procedures. None of that means that there won't be a marketplace of health care plans, including a public option and many, many private options. I suspect you will see all the same private options (Tufts, BCBS, Harvard Pilgrim, Aetna, United Behavioral Health) and perhaps a few new ones. None of them have been hurt by Massachusetts' health insurance mandate or Mass Health being a part of the marketplace here. And contrary to other reports on this board, the Massachusetts model is widely held to be a success. Is MA having financial problems? Yes. But not because of the insurance mandate or because of Mass Health. And trust me, on issues of Massachusetts politics, I am quite sure I know more than anyone else on this board.

[DarrinS]

Supergirl,


Let's band together and rid the internet of this disinformation campaign. Help me report these paid shills to the White House.


Great example, here.

r9bWqcZnrDg

[Crookshanks]

Hey - I think I'll send Supergirl's post above to that website - she has no clue what she's talking about and is spreading disinformation.

The democrats are using Alinksy's Rules for Radicals - you know, define the enemy, isolate him and then discredit and demonize him. That's exactly what Nancy Pelosi and Obama and his gang of thugs are doing. And these "angry mobs" make up 52% of the voting-age population. It's not just the "righties" as you libs here would like us to believe. They're average, every day citizens who don't want the government messing up 17% of our economy.

As for Obama being against a single-payer system - was he lying in all those videos of past speeches, or is he lying now? I think he's lying now - and so do a majority of people. That's why there's so much outrage. And now the Obama administration is asking citizens to spy on their neighbors and friends and turn them in.

I've checked out some conservative sites and this [email protected] is going to go down in flames. The site is already being spammed and people are turning themselves in. One person turned in her 85 year-old grandmother with this comment. "Please straighten her out, she doesn't believe in euthanasia and would rather have the higher cost medical care" :lmao

[George Gervin's Afro]

Hey - I think I'll send Supergirl's post above to that website - she has no clue what she's talking about and is spreading disinformation.

The democrats are using Alinksy's Rules for Radicals - you know, define the enemy, isolate him and then discredit and demonize him. That's exactly what Nancy Pelosi and Obama and his gang of thugs are doing. And these "angry mobs" make up 52% of the voting-age population. It's not just the "righties" as you libs here would like us to believe. They're average, every day citizens who don't want the government messing up 17% of our economy.

As for Obama being against a single-payer system - was he lying in all those videos of past speeches, or is he lying now? I think he's lying now - and so do a majority of people. That's why there's so much outrage. And now the Obama administration is asking citizens to spy on their neighbors and friends and turn them in.

I've checked out some conservative sites and this [email protected] is going to go down in flames. The site is already being spammed and people are turning themselves in. One person turned in her 85 year-old grandmother with this comment. "Please straighten her out, she doesn't believe in euthanasia and would rather have the higher cost medical care" :lmao


The democrats are using Alinksy's Rules for Radicals - you know, define the enemy, isolate him and then discredit and demonize him.


That's wierd Karl Rove and his ilk did the exact same thing...hmmmm...... I guess you must have been born this past January because any clear thinking person would realize how hypocritical this is..

[Supergirl]

I need to stop trying to have conversations with people who don't really want to hear or read anything other than their own ill-informed opinions. But I will leave people who care about truth with this:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/subjects/health/

It's an exhaustive file on all the statements made about health care and whether they are actually true or not. And yes, it ranks Obama's stance on health care as a "half-flip" because his position has become more nuanced as result of actually taking office, as opposed to running for it. Which, you know, is what EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN ON THE PLANET DOES when they actually get into office.

[Crookshanks]

Nuanced - that's an elitist way of saying HE'S A BIG FAT LIAR!

[SonOfAGun]

WHat part of "bussing people in" to make it look like the health care proposals are truly being opposed by AMericans do people not understand?

it's like the same damn woman at all the "rallies."

that's not dissent, folks. that's manipulation and deceit. it's the republican way.

But hey, it reeks of desperation. The Republicans know they're on the wrong side of history on this one. They just can't get out of their own way. The vast majority of Americans aren't falling for their lies.

all aboard the ACCORN TRAIN WOOOOO WOOOOOOOOOOO

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Spursmania]

I wish I knew of a town hall meeting taking place here in San Antonio. I'd definitely make some noise! Of course, it would be reported that someone bussed me to the meeting. :lol

Many, many Americans do not want government run health care. The polls show many Americans are against this bleeding liberal bill whether or not liberals want to believe it or not.

[SonOfAGun]

I need to stop trying to have conversations with people who don't really want to hear or read anything other than their own ill-informed opinions.

:wakeup

[George Gervin's Afro]

I wish I knew of a town hall meeting taking place here in San Antonio. I'd definitely make some noise! Of course, it would be reported that someone bussed me to the meeting. :lol

Many, many Americans do not want government run health care. The polls show many Americans are against this bleeding liberal bill whether or not liberals want to believe it or not.

I wonder why...when they are being fed poor people will die and care will be rationed. women with breat cancer won't get treatment..etc..I wonder why when polled people are against it..of course I would like to get more accurate infromation to those people so they can make a non biased decision not based on assumptions and scare tactics but that's just me.. let's just scare everyone and tell them it's going to be just like (insert country here) even though a final bill hasn't been proposed. it may not be the most honest thing to do but hell i want to win so fuck the truth..

[George Gervin's Afro]

I need to stop trying to have conversations with people who don't really want to hear or read anything other than their own ill-informed opinions. But I will leave people who care about truth with this:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/subjects/health/

It's an exhaustive file on all the statements made about health care and whether they are actually true or not. And yes, it ranks Obama's stance on health care as a "half-flip" because his position has become more nuanced as result of actually taking office, as opposed to running for it. Which, you know, is what EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN ON THE PLANET DOES when they actually get into office.

intellectual honesty and resident conservatives mix like oil and water

[Crookshanks]

liberal intellectual dishonesty and resident intelligent conservatives mix like oil and water

fixed it for you

[101A]

Where does this fear that a govt plan would drive everyone else out of business come from? Why does it come out of the mouths of the same people who think the govt can't run anything? if you believe in the market at all, then you have to believe that if the govt enters the health care marketplace, only the most affordable and best run plans will come out OK in the end. monopolies are never a good thing for an economy or for people.



1. The Govt. CAN"T run anything.

Therefore, initially, the public option will be an abject failure. It will attract the sickest among us, who cannot get coverage anywhere else; it will be "selected against".

2. Insurance companies, being the profit driven, intelligent entities they are, will recognize this; and will allow, by inordinate rate increases, upcoming large claimants, and claimant groups to move to the public plan during the window of time those claims will hit. Their underwriters are good; their agents want to make commissions; they will keep calling on those groups, and when the conditions clear, will sign them up for premiums the govt. plan can't match because of the adverse selection THEIR underwriters are dealing with; and the amount of premium they need to collect to cover their (mounting) losses.

3. The media will cover the DEEP hole the public option finds itself in.

4. The hole will be blamed on the insurance industry.

5. New regulations will be passed to "level the playing field.

6. Repeat steps 1 - 5 until the only regulation left is to outlaw private insurance.

It is inevitable. The government option will be completely out of its league; it has no concept of making a profit, or controlling costs while the insurance industry is VERY good at it. The govt's competitive advantage is the ultimate one; they write the rules.

[boutons_deux]

Why do Medicare users poll more satisfied with Medicare than private insurance users with private insurance?

And Medicare users, 65+, very probably use Medicare much more than private insurance users.

The subsidized, corrupt private insurance industry provides no value anywhere near the profits they pocket and overheads they waste.

Private insurance users, esp the ones who don't have to pay for it, not even taxed on the employer-provided benefits, are all for private insurance until they get mugged by it.

Let's see how many anti-health-reformers would be against the public option if they had to pay, after tax, $13K/year to insure their family of four.

If the govt is so bad, why are Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid overheads so much lower than for-profit operations?

[DarrinS]

Why do Medicare users poll more satisfied with Medicare than private insurance users with private insurance?

And Medicare users, 65+, very probably use Medicare much more than private insurance users.

The subsidized, corrupt private insurance industry provides no value anywhere near the profits they pocket and overheads they waste.

Private insurance users, esp the ones who don't have to pay for it, not even taxed on the employer-provided benefits, are all for private insurance until they get mugged by it.

Let's see how many anti-health-reformers would be against the public option if they had to pay, after tax, $13K/year to insure their family of four.

If the govt is so bad, why are Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid overheads so much lower than for-profit operations?



I'm reporting this "fishy" post to the White House office of New Media.

[101A]

If the govt is so bad, why are ... Medicare/Medicaid overheads so much lower than for-profit operations?

Link.

Here's a pretty extensive one that argues against your numbers:

http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHI_Medicare_Admin_Final_Publication.pdf

[Wild Cobra]

I think Neil has a good perspective on the protests:

zMPyD0aR2Y8

[Yonivore]

I sent links to the following videos to [email protected]

aDAPLb-HVcM

p-bY92mcOdk

w4HgDfNsH3M

Something "fishy" about the president contradicting hiimself.

[clambake]

you're in the wrong thread.

i left you a present.

[Yonivore]

you're in the wrong thread.
Whatever thread I'm in is the right one.


i left you a present.
Hey! That's what we used to call it when our kids downloaded into their diapers...a present.

No thanks.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah.

The Government ought to put a stop to that!

Only leftists can engage in protest and various political "mob" behaviors. Amusing how much they whine when the other side bothers to do the same.

[baseline bum]

I cannot understand how anyone can like our healthcare system. Our per capita spending on healthcare just blows away that of any other nation on Earth, with not much to show for it. Last stat I saw, Switzerland was next behind us, still spending 20% less than we do while covering everyone. Healthcare costs are just murdering jobs here. How much of that ridiculous price GM was spending on it's workers is tied to the exorbinant cost of American health insurance?

I wish we'd go to something like Germany has; no profit for the paper-pushers, no need for ridiculous malpractice insurance on the doctors' side, no bankruptcy if your wife gets cancer, and so on. The one thing I'd change is to disallow opting-out in combination with making the rates a bit higher than they are there so that doctors aren't only making $90G a year for the crazy workload they have to deal with.

[101A]

I cannot understand how anyone can like our healthcare system. Our per capita spending on healthcare just blows away that of any other nation on Earth, with not much to show for it.

I disagree with this statement.

You CAN look at it as we spend so much on healthcare, but aren't that much healthier than other countries;

OR

You can realize that we spend that amount on healthcare, don't exercise, eat like pigs, supersize our fries, take the car 1/2 a mile to the grocery store; and STILL aren't appreciably less healthy than societies that walk more, eat better and watch far less TV.

It's a fucking miracle we are nearly as healthy as other societies.

Just a thought.

[101A]

Fattest countries in the World (guess whose way up there?)

http://www.fitsugar.com/136829

[baseline bum]

I disagree with this statement.

You CAN look at it as we spend so much on healthcare, but aren't that much healthier than other countries;

OR

You can realize that we spend that amount on healthcare, don't exercise, eat like pigs, supersize our fries, take the car 1/2 a mile to the grocery store; and STILL aren't appreciably less healthy than societies that walk more, eat better and watch far less TV.

It's a fucking miracle we are nearly as healthy as other societies.

Just a thought.

16% of the GDP, while 15% of the nation has no coverage. To me those numbers are unreal. It's not like the UK or Germany are known for their healthy lifestyles, yet they cover everyone, have higher life expectancies, and pay nothing approaching what we do.

[101A]

16% of the GDP, while 15% of the nation has no coverage. To me those numbers are unreal. It's not like the UK or Germany are known for their healthy lifestyles, yet they cover everyone, have higher life expectancies, and pay nothing approaching what we do.

Well, neither is as fat as we are; especially Germany; regardless, part of that 16%, obviously, goes to paying for those 15% do not have coverage.

Also, I've never advocated for keeping the status quo - I simply don't think the govt. should be a payor. The govt., after all, has a track record in healthcare - Medicare; and it currently costs over 10 times more than the worst case scenario envisioned by its proponents 40 years ago - and at its current rate of expanse, is going to bankrupt the govt. Why should we trust that entity with any more control of the healthcare industry? It has failed. (Also, ironically, you can trace the rapid increase of healthcare costs in this country back to the late sixties; after Medicare/Medicaid were passed; even though employer provided insurance had been a tradition for 20 years at that point.) I honestly don't know why that correlates that way, but it does.

[baseline bum]

Well, neither is as fat as we are; especially Germany; regardless, part of that 16%, obviously, goes to paying for those 15% do not have coverage.

Also, I've never advocated for keeping the status quo - I simply don't think the govt. should be a payor. The govt., after all, has a track record in healthcare - Medicare; and it currently costs over 10 times more than the worst case scenario envisioned by its proponents 40 years ago - and at its current rate of expanse, is going to bankrupt the govt. Why should we trust that entity with any more control of the healthcare industry? It has failed. (Also, ironically, you can trace the rapid increase of healthcare costs in this country back to the late sixties; after Medicare/Medicaid were passed; even though employer provided insurance had been a tradition for 20 years at that point.) I honestly don't know why that correlates that way, but it does.

What about the status quo would you change then?

[Wild Cobra]

I sent links to the following videos to [email protected]

aDAPLb-HVcM

p-bY92mcOdk

w4HgDfNsH3M

Something "fishy" about the president contradicting hiimself.

OMG, why did you do that. Now, they're going to pull all the evidence off YOUTUBE!

[Wild Cobra]

Whatever thread I'm in is the right one.
He means the one with the popcorn and he says he left it for you. A few of us had some though, and what's left is probably stale. That was yesterday.