is manu the best international player of all time?

[ivanfromwestwood]

is he the best ever? i cant think of anyone better.

w57zCDR81LQ

i know its an old video but im bored.

[honestfool84]

i think david beckham might be better at soccer.

[honestfool84]

oh..you meant best international basketball player?

[ivanfromwestwood]

how bout we just refer to basketball.

[Solid D]

No, because remember that one time when he fouled Dirk.

But seriously, I'd say Sabas.

[spursfaninla]

Does Sabas have the same resume? I know to NBA fans that Manu has the goods, although Dirk even moreso in terms of MVP, stats, being the franchise player...etc...

[lefty]

Sabonis
Manu
Dirk
Kukoc
KillBillPana

[AnthonyM]

Dirk obviously has to be in this discussion as better than Manu in terms of basketball skills and talent, as much as it sucks to say.

But Manu brings all the intangibles and leadership that Dirk doesn't possess.

Overall as a player, I'd choose Manu between the two.

[jason1301]

No, because remember that one time when he fouled Dirk.

But seriously, I'd say Sabas.

Sabonis has my vote, Manu is definitely one of the most accomplished international players in the NBA.

[Libri]

is he the best ever? i cant think of anyone better.

Do you mean the best to play in the NBA or just international basketball in general?

[Libri]

Does anybody think that Oscar Schmidt could have had a stellar career in the NBA?

[pressurez]

if we just look at NBA careers...

hakeem then dirk then nash.

manu is in a five-way tie with gasol, yao, tony, and peja.

[lefty]

Does anybody think that Oscar Schmidt could have had a stellar career in the NBA?
+1

He was great

[Solid D]

Does anybody think that Oscar Schmidt could have had a stellar career in the NBA?

He could have if he played for the Nuggets under Westhead or Moe. They just tried to put points up in volume. Schmidt played matador defense.

[jason1301]

Does anybody think that Oscar Schmidt could have had a stellar career in the NBA?

F@ck yeah this guy was a stud!!!

[lefty]

Beno Udrih

[ivanfromwestwood]

Sabonis has my vote, [b]Manu is definitely one of the most accomplished international players in the NBA.[b] i agree. a healthy manu is a thing of beauty. make him the top dog on a good team and i think he is top 10 player in this league. of course he would have to be healthy and about 5 years younger. lol heres another cool vid. i hate the summer. cant wait for oct.

nXqpGYXlo80&NR=1

[eisfeld]

1. Sabas
2. Manu and Dirk


hakeem then dirk then nash.

I don't think you can include Olajuwon. Hakeem was born in Nigeria but became an US citizen. If you do so you have to inlude Duncan as well.

[lefty]

1. Sabas
2. Manu and Dirk



I don't think you can include Olajuwon. Hakeem was born in Nigeria but became an US citizen. If you do so you have to inlude Duncan as well.
Well, Duncan and Hakeem

[TMTTRIO]

if we just look at NBA careers...

hakeem then dirk then nash.

manu is in a five-way tie with gasol, yao, tony, and peja.

Actually if we're talking about NBA careers Manu really hasn't accomplished very much individually like some of the other international players and Tony would be much higher than him with everything that he has done in the NBA. But if you consider their whole career both overseas and in the NBA, Manu's near the top.

[ducks]

he is the greatest player to be compared to kobe bryant when he has no business being mentioned in the same breath as kobe by spur fans

[j-6]

No, because remember that one time when he fouled Dirk.

But seriously, I'd say Sabas.

Nice choice. He was in his 30's when he got to Portland, remember? Close to Manu's age right now...

[sa_kid20]

If Hakeem and Timmy count then they are 1 and 2 no doubt.

[Pucho!!!]

I dunno about Dirk bein ahead of Manu. Dirks good but 1 mvp, means nothing esp since he was the best player on an overrated team. Manu has consistently been a winner no matter the league. Could that be becuz of the GMs he's played for settin up good teams? maybe, but for the most part I don't see too many players let alone international players with the resume like Manu. As far as skillset, make Dirk about 6 inches shorter and he's Kyle Korver. He has a very incomplete game, scores well but does everything else quite mediocre. Manu on the other hand has a polised all-around game. Isn't he one of the top SGs in the league? That's sayin a lot seein how there's soooo many more SGs (than bigmen) in the world that r talented.

I would put 1.Hakeem 2. Manu 3. Dirk. U gotta be #1 when u have a move named after u ("Dream Shake" anyone), D Rob would agree.

[Pucho!!!]

I almost forgot, what about Vlade Divac (i might have mispelled it)?

[mudyez]

i think david beckham might be better at soccer.

you dont know much about soccer, are you?

Hakeem hs to be the #1, after that I think, Dirk, Manu, Sabonis and Nash pretty much are in a tie, but you could make a case for anyone of them:

Nash: 2 time MVP
Manu: best overall achievements
Sabonis: maybe the best player ever (over MJ!), but not that much of an NBA career
Dirk: MVP once, shoulders the Mavs team for some time now

[angelbelow]

I think it's arguable.. since Im biased I'm going to go with yea.

[mudyez]

I almost forgot, what about Vlade Divac (i might have mispelled it)?

I think its spelled corectly, but I see him a step below...more as one of the bst roleplayers ever.

[Solid D]

I find it difficult to classify Hakeem as an "international" player. He was born in Nigeria, to be sure, but he didn't really play professionally overseas. He started playing in school at age 15 and then came to the United States to go to college. He red-shirted and didn't really get much playing time until his soph. year.

If you want to categorize Hakeem Olajuwon as an international player because he was born in Nigeria, then why not include Dominique Wilkins in this list? He was born in Paris, France.

[peskypesky]

I find it difficult to classify Hakeem as an "international" player. He was born in Nigeria, to be sure, but he didn't really play professionally overseas. He started playing in school at age 15 and then came to the United States to go to college. He red-shirted and didn't really get much playing time until his soph. year.

If you want to categorize Hakeem Olajuwon as an international player because he was born in Nigeria, then why not include Dominique Wilkins in this list? He was born in Paris, France.

But where did Dominique grow up? I think that's what should determine an international player, someone who didn't grow up in the United States. Hakeem, Tim, Tony, Dirk, Nash, Sabonis, Petrovic, Manu, etc. all were born and grew up outside of the US. And of those, I'd say Duncan and Hakeem are at the top. Then Dirk, Manu and Nash. Then Tony. Sabonis, unfortunately, didn't make it to the US til he was way past his prime. Petrovic died young.

[ego]

Kresimir Cosic is the best international player of all time

(November 26, 1948 - March 25, 1995) was a professional basketball player.
He was born in Zagreb and raised in Zadar. He was the first foreign player to earn All-America honors by United Press International, garnering them in 1972 and 1973. He played for Brigham Young University from 1971 to 1973. After his college career, he rejected several professional offers and returned home to Croatia.
Ćosić played in four Olympic Games: 1968, 1972, 1976, and 1980 in Moscow when he led his team to the gold medal. He previously led Yugoslavia to a pair of World Championship gold medals in 1970 and 1978.


Named to the WAC All-Decade Team (1974)
Played in prestigious East-West college All-Star Game (1973)
Drafted by the NBA's Los Angeles Lakers and the ABA's Carolina Cougars (1973)
Led BYU in scoring as a junior (22.3 ppg) and senior (20.2 ppg)
Second all-time rebounder (919, 11.6 rpg) and among top 10 scorers (1,512 points)
Led BYU to the NCAA Regional Finals (1971, 1972)
Led BYU to a pair of WAC titles (1971, 1972)
International Playing:

KK Zadar (1964-69, 1973-75)
KK Cibona (1980-83)
International Playing Highlights:

Played in four Olympic Games (1968, 1972, 1976, 1980)
Led Cibona to a gold medal (1980), and Zadar to silver medals (1968, 1976)
Led Cibona to a pair of World Championship gold medals (1970, 1978) and three European titles
Earned First Team All-European honors seven times
Played for two-time Italian champions Virtus Bologna (1979, 1980)
Led Virtus Bologna to a third place in European Cup of Champions (1980)

[mabrignani]

Tim Duncan of the Virgin Islands is the best International player of all time

[Hooks]

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20080730/001372acd0b509fa26cc12.jpg



1 Pic.

Manu>Dirk

[mystargtr34]

Strictly in the NBA, Dirk has been the best ever.

Not sure who it is when you talk about all time. Probably still Dirk. But you have to have Manu, Sabonis, Kukoc and Petrovic in the discussion.

[raspsa]

Timothy "Tim" Theodore Duncan if international = foreign

[eisfeld]

But where did Dominique grow up? I think that's what should determine an international player, someone who didn't grow up in the United States. Hakeem, Tim, Tony, Dirk, Nash, Sabonis, Petrovic, Manu, etc. all were born and grew up outside of the US. And of those, I'd say Duncan and Hakeem are at the top. Then Dirk, Manu and Nash. Then Tony. Sabonis, unfortunately, didn't make it to the US til he was way past his prime. Petrovic died young.

You have a point here.
Although it's argueable whether an international player is one who grew up in a foreign country and then played in the NBA regardless whether he became an U.S. citizen or not or a player who was born outside of the U.S. came to the NBA and retained his original citizenship.

Hakeem is a product of U.S. basketball, became an U.S. citizen and played for the U.S. Team. Timmy, although being born at the U.S. Virgin Islands is barely considered an international player.

Debating over who is an international player or not is quite hard with those vanishing borders and being a product of the U.S. basketball system. Those players I just can't consider as being International players.

Either way, if including the players meeting the requirements above it's clearly Hakeem and Timmy, otherwise Dirk and Manu.

[Doctor J]

C. Arvydas Sabonis
PF. Dirk Nowitzki
SF. Toni Kukoc
SG. Drazen Petrovic
SG/PG. Manu Ginobili

[sonic21]

Sabonis

[mudyez]

that again raises the question about Hakeem and Timmy beeing foreigners...born somewhere else, but also playing for Team USA (I believe Hakeem wanted to and was on the roster, but got injured before he could participate).

if thy are international players, than it basically is a 2 way race with the option to make a case for Sabonis

[kace]

that again raises the question about Hakeem and Timmy beeing foreigners...born somewhere else, but also playing for Team USA (I believe Hakeem wanted to and was on the roster, but got injured before he could participate).

if thy are international players, than it basically is a 2 way race with the option to make a case for Sabonis

if we consider Tim as an international player (which is ridiculous IMO), then we have to see his level and results in FIBA competitions.

and Tim was really average in those competitions and won nothing, on the contrary of manu, or even tony (without the big titles but still a high level of play).

i know Tim is a legend in SA, bit his average level in those international games will stay like a fail for him as a player. and the fact that he choose to give up wasn't something in his favor either.

[exstatic]

Drazen Petrovic may have been the best pure shooter ever to play basketball on this planet. He scored over 100 points in a professional game as a mid teen, like 15-16?

Sarunas Marciulionis was Manu before Manu was, throwing his body about with abandon for a number of years with GS.

Both of these guys were extremely effective NBA players before the NBA was really using foreign players for anything other than practice dummys. They, along with Vlade Divac, broke the barrier when most thought Euros weren't NBA material back in the late 80s and early 90s.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

if we consider Tim as an international player (which is ridiculous IMO), then we have to see his level and results in FIBA competitions.

and Tim was really average in those competitions and won nothing, on the contrary of manu, or even tony (without the big titles but still a high level of play).

i know Tim is a legend in SA, bit his average level in those international games will stay like a fail for him as a player. and the fact that he choose to give up wasn't something in his favor either.

Bullshit!

Look, I agree with you that Duncan shouldn't really be considered international. However, if and when Duncan enters the "best international player of all time" discussion, then Duncan wins hands down. Today, tomorrow, and twice on Sunday. Neither Tony nor Manu have anything on Duncan in this regard. To look at it the way you do is to nitpick for the sake of homerism, really.

[NickiRasgo]

Not the best but one of the best.

[kace]

Bullshit!

Look, I agree with you that Duncan shouldn't really be considered international. However, if and when Duncan enters the "best international player of all time" discussion, then Duncan wins hands down. Today, tomorrow, and twice on Sunday. Neither Tony nor Manu have anything on Duncan in this regard. To look at it the way you do is to nitpick for the sake of homerism, really.

now, i'm a manu homer :lol

if the OP asks if manu is the best international player ever, it's safe you have to consider all the competitions, not only the NBA. otherwise, it's not even a question, a lot (well, not so much) of foreign players have been better than manu in NBA.

so, if we consider the whole game of bball, not only the NBA, you have to say that Tim has failed outside the NBA. He was far, very far from dominant in FIBA games. that's a fact. and i'm a tim fan. always been.

[fleggy2k2]

i think david beckham might be better at soccer.

beckham's rubbish now that you have the lionel messi's, fernando torres's, and kaka's rising to fame.

[Brazil]

Tim / Hakeem / Dirk /

Nash ? TP :stirpot: / Divac / Sabonis

[greensborohill]

Nowitzki will be the best Euro basketball player in the history of the NBA by the time he is through. He'll be the highest scoring international player (Duncan included) in the history of the NBA by the time he's through. . . somewhere north of 24k points. He'll be a HoFer.

[Rapper]

Actually Timmy is an international player as well

[Rapper]

Speaking of international player

Man how can't you guys mention my friend Yao Ming

f9EiQIUYXeo

[A_Duke]

Duncan might have been born outside the U.S. but he did go to Wake Forrest and played for team USA in the Olympics. I would classify him as domestic, plus people born in the U.S. Virgin Island are also considered US Citizens.

An International player for me is someone who grew up and learned to ball overseas, then came to the U.S. and made a name for himself a la Ginobli, Dirk.

[Chieflion]

This is the 2nd page and everyone is leaving out Pau Gasol for a discussion.

[DaBears]

Drazen Petrovic I'd agree for those who do not know or ever heard of this guy, he was the best European basketball player in the game till he had an untimely passing.

Those were words right out of MJ mouth

[DaBears]

This is the 2nd page and everyone is leaving out Pau Gasol for a discussion.


There is a reason why we are all leaving the guy from the list. he is not one of the best in league history there are and will be plenty of other far better than Pau Gasol......

[Kamnik]

No. I am a huge fan of Manu (as most here). But there are several players that are better than him. Dirk being one of them.

[Summers]

Duncan might have been born outside the U.S. but he did go to Wake Forrest and played for team USA in the Olympics. I would classify him as domestic, plus people born in the U.S. Virgin Island are also considered US Citizens.

An International player for me is someone who grew up and learned to ball overseas, then came to the U.S. and made a name for himself a la Ginobli, Dirk.

I guess the definition is blurred because the VI are a territory and most of us don't really know what that means, but VI citizens are Americans. I believe I've heard Duncan say he doesn't consider himself a foreign player, but I don't want to misquote him.

[hater]

is he the best ever? i cant think of anyone better.

w57zCDR81LQ

i know its an old video but im bored.

this is correct.

[jag]

Sabonis
Manu
Dirk
Kukoc
KillBillPana

Manu is not, and has not been a better player than Dirk.

Manu's been on better teams and had better coaching...but he's not a better player.

[superbigtime]

Rik Smits was a very good player for Indiana and had 12 solid seasons with them avg 14.8 ppg for his career.

Detlef Schrempf was pretty good also, averaging 13.9 ppg over a 15 year NBA career. Not bad.

And Mychal Thompson from the Bahamas had a 12 year NBA career including 49 games with the Spurs and avg'd 13.7 ppg for his career.

[DAF86]

i think david beckham might be better at soccer.

Tell me you were joking here. Beckham doesn't qualify among the 10000000 billions best football players of all time.

[DAF86]

Does anybody think that Oscar Schmidt could have had a stellar career in the NBA?

Oscar Schmidt was better than many NBA hall of famers. Dirk isn't half the player Oscar was in his prime.

[DAF86]

Tell me you were joking here. Beckham doesn't qualify among the 10000000 billions best football players of all time.

He isn't even one of the best right now. At his prime I'd say he was among the 500 best players in the world at that time.

[Das Texan]

If you went to a US College you shouldnt be considered an international player. Especially for this argument.

[remingtonbo2001]

I would consider Manu to be the most accomplished International Basketball player.

However, Sabonis easily had the highest level of Basketball IQ among those noted. One could argue that Sabonis had the highest IQ of any post player.

Time to bust out the Sabonis Mixtape.

[DAF86]

Regarding Manu, if you're talking about international players on the NBA, no he isn't. Just because he came to the league a little bit late (age wise) to trully make a huge impact and 'cause he was never the main guy on his own team (which hurt his stats). But if you're talking about international players in general then yes he has to be right up there. I've seen more talented players than Manu in my life, even guys that didn't make it to the NBA, but I haven't seen a single player that has won what Manu won, and always beign a critical piece of those championship teams, not just a role player.

[benefactor]

It's close, but I'd give the edge to Sabonis. Most of the people I've talked to who watched Euro ball when he was young say he was the Jordan of Europe.

[weebo]

If you take Manu's body of work both internationally or in the NBA, his accomplishments far exceed anything any of the other international scrubs have done. This man has won where ever he has played, so you base his level of greatness by his teams' success not by individual accolades.

[weebo]

It's close, but I'd give the edge to Sabonis. Most of the people I've talked to who watched Euro ball when he was young say he was the Jordan of Europe.

That's not saying much considering that Euro ball was Euro crap pre Dream Team. How many Euro players during Sabonis's stint in Euro ball were actually viable NBA candidates?

[benefactor]

That's not saying much considering that Euro ball was Euro crap pre Dream Team. How many Euro players during Sabonis's stint in Euro ball were actually viable NBA candidates?
True...but he also averaged 16/10/3 in the NBA in 1998 at 34 years old. Pretty damn impressive.

As I said, it's close...but Sabonis gets the nod IMO.

[Sobe_Kucks]

Sabonis didn't hit the NBA until he was a 30/31 year old rookie and his knees were pretty shot. It would have been incredible to see him play in the NBA during his prime. Not many people remember how different his game was for a 7' 3" center back then. It was unheard of to be that big and have such court vision. The 86 World Championships and 88 Olympics were more than impressive when the USA fell to the Soviets. Meethinks there was a center on both of those USA teams just a year younger than Sabonis that we might remember. I recall 5-0 not having a good time against him in 86 at all.

[Destro]

Dirk is a good player but he isn't a champion at NBA or International Ball

[urunobili]

Regarding Manu, if you're talking about international players on the NBA, no he isn't. Just because he came to the league a little bit late (age wise) to trully make a huge impact and 'cause he was never the main guy on his own team (which hurt his stats). But if you're talking about international players in general then yes he has to be right up there. I've seen more talented players than Manu in my life, even guys that didn't make it to the NBA, but I haven't seen a single player that has won what Manu won, and always beign a critical piece of those championship teams, not just a role player.

Quality post right there :tu

[Dex]

I miss 2005 Ginobili. :(

[Brazil]

This is the 2nd page and everyone is leaving out Pau Gasol for a discussion.

you have a point here... and Yao

[dirk4mvp]

How delusional do you have to be to think Manu is better than Dirk? :lmao

[rAm]

How delusional do you have to be to think Manu is better than Dirk? :lmao

About as delusional as you thinking Dirk is better than Duncan.

[HarlemHeat37]

Sabonis was one of my favorite players in the NBA, even though he was clearly past his prime and had serious injury problems..he's by far the best passing big man I've ever seen, just ridiculous..I can only imagine seeing him in his physical prime, which is proven with how so many other players describe him..

He also outplayed Admiral in the 80's, and Dave was a top 20 player of all-time(obviously not at the time, but he turned out to be)..

As for Manu..if we're talking about his combined accolades in the NBA and in Euroball, then he's certainly up there, and has a legit argument for #1..as for being "the best" player, I'd put him behind a few..Sabonis, Petrovic, Dirk off the top of my head..probably Yao..

[manu_maniac]

If you went to a US College you shouldnt be considered an international player. Especially for this argument.

There are plenty of international students attending U.S. universities. It shouldn't matter if a foreign player is playing collegiately.

As for the best international player, I'll go with Sabonis

[DAF86]

Manu is not, and has not been a better player than Dirk.

Manu's been on better teams and had better coaching...but he's not a better player.

I'd take Manu at his prime over Dirk at his prime any day of the week.

[Brazil]

He isn't even one of the best right now. At his prime I'd say he was among the 500 best players in the world at that time.

you're exagerating a bit here... In his prime playing for the great machester David Spicy was a top 20 players at that time

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't think anybody can take Manu over Dirk without being biased..Dirk is underrated career-wise, he's been a top 5 player of this entire generation with Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, and KG..he has an MVP, he's been an all-NBA caliber player for the majority of his career, he's led a team to the Finals..he's never really had elite support too..

[dirk4mvp]

I'd take Manu at his prime over Dirk at his prime any day of the week.

That makes you retarded then.

[dirk4mvp]

About as delusional as you thinking Dirk is better than Duncan.

I don't mind someone trying to make a case for Duncan, it was pretty entertaining. Saying Manu is better than Dirk is beyond retarded.

[DAF86]

you're exagerating a bit here... In his prime playing for the great machester David Spicy was a top 20 players at that time

I may be exagerating a little bit, but I think you're overrating him. No way Beckham was a top 20 player in the world at any point of his career.

[DAF86]

That makes you retarded then.

Manu's prime was from 2000/2001 'till 2005/2006, the problem is that he wasted part of that time adjusting as a rookie to the NBA. If he would have got at age 20 to the NBA in 2003 he would have played better than in 2005.

[CGD]

Young Sabonis from the 1988 Olympics was amazing. A close call, but IMO Manu has both the international (including Olympic gold) and NBA credentials to warrant putting him ahead of Sabonis.

[benefactor]

Anyone that says they would take Manu over Dirk is being a homer...and I hate the Mavs and Dirk.

[DAF86]

Anyone that says they would take Manu over Dirk is being a homer...and I hate the Mavs and Dirk.

Anyone that thinks that Manu > Dirk isn't at least arguable hasn't seen even half of Manu's career.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

What the hell? I love Manu but better than Olajuwon? Better than Galis? Um no.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

I find it difficult to classify Hakeem as an "international" player. He was born in Nigeria, to be sure, but he didn't really play professionally overseas. He started playing in school at age 15 and then came to the United States to go to college. He red-shirted and didn't really get much playing time until his soph. year.

If you want to categorize Hakeem Olajuwon as an international player because he was born in Nigeria, then why not include Dominique Wilkins in this list? He was born in Paris, France.

WTF is this nonsense?

Jasikevicius played high school and US basketball in the USA. I guess he is also an American player right?

[Phenomanul]

That makes you retarded then.

I will say this, Dirk has just put up better numbers as his team's number one option, for a far longer time... for a perennial "contender," no less...

And Manu while enjoying the benefit of not having to play as the number one option for the Spurs at any point during the regular season (during his prime)... could always be counted on when it mattered the most - in the clutch... No one can argue that he wasn't the lightning plug that catapulted the Spurs to a championship in 2005. Duncan, while highly effective (as always) took a back seat during that run due the severely sprained ankle he was nursing at the time...

So one could argue that when Manu was in his prime he was an unstoppable force... and led his teams to championships... (see Argentina GOLD medal winning team in '04 and during his playoff run in '05). Manu took it hard to the rim and seemingly scored at will, or got to the line... his decision-making was impeccable. That playoff run was one for the ages as far as international players are concerned.

When Dirk was in his prime he... he accomplished... ummm... an MVP season?? A Finals embarrassment....??

You keep Dirk....

I'll take Manu.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

C. Arvydas Sabonis
PF. Dirk Nowitzki
SF. Toni Kukoc
SG. Drazen Petrovic
SG/PG. Manu Ginobili

Galis was better than every single player on this list.

[Fingaroll44]

I almost forgot, what about Vlade Divac (i might have mispelled it)?

...and the winner for best international flopper goes to...

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Duncan might have been born outside the U.S. but he did go to Wake Forrest and played for team USA in the Olympics. I would classify him as domestic, plus people born in the U.S. Virgin Island are also considered US Citizens.

An International player for me is someone who grew up and learned to ball overseas, then came to the U.S. and made a name for himself a la Ginobli, Dirk.

So why the hell is not Arroyo considered American then?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Drazen Petrovic I'd agree for those who do not know or ever heard of this guy, he was the best European basketball player in the game till he had an untimely passing.

Those were words right out of MJ mouth

1. Galis
2. Drazen

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

If you went to a US College you shouldnt be considered an international player. Especially for this argument.

So why is Jasikevicius not considered American? He played high school and college in USA.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

I would consider Manu to be the most accomplished International Basketball player.

However, Sabonis easily had the highest level of Basketball IQ among those noted. One could argue that Sabonis had the highest IQ of any post player.

Time to bust out the Sabonis Mixtape.

Manu is better than Sabas.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

It's close, but I'd give the edge to Sabonis. Most of the people I've talked to who watched Euro ball when he was young say he was the Jordan of Europe.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao

1. Galis
2. Drazen
3. Marciulionis
4. Sabonis

Best players of the 80s in Europe. If you want to look at the 90s then Kukoc, Galis, Bodiroga were all better than Sabonis. Whoever you talked to clearly never watched any European basketball back then.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

That's not saying much considering that Euro ball was Euro crap pre Dream Team. How many Euro players during Sabonis's stint in Euro ball were actually viable NBA candidates?

You are stupid.

[Dr. Gonzo]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao

1. Galis
2. Drazen
3. Marciulionis
4. Sabonis

Best players of the 80s in Europe. If you want to look at the 90s then Kukoc, Galis, Bodiroga were all better than Sabonis. Whoever you talked to clearly never watched any European basketball back then.

John Stamos!

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

I don't think anybody can take Manu over Dirk without being biased..Dirk is underrated career-wise, he's been a top 5 player of this entire generation with Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, and KG..he has an MVP, he's been an all-NBA caliber player for the majority of his career, he's led a team to the Finals..he's never really had elite support too..

I would rather have Dirk for a season but for a game 7 of playoffs or one game of single elimination in FIBA I take Manu every time over Dirk.

[DAF86]

I don't think anybody can take Manu over Dirk without being biased..Dirk is underrated career-wise, he's been a top 5 player of this entire generation with Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, and KG..he has an MVP, he's been an all-NBA caliber player for the majority of his career, he's led a team to the Finals..he's never really had elite support too..

TOP 5 player of his generation? I think you're overrating Dirk a bit.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not as familiar with FIBA, so I won't comment in detail, since I don't wanna pretend to know something that I don't..so I'm just speaking from an individual standpoint in the NBA, where Dirk has obviously proven a lot..

Who would you put ahead of Dirk for the 5th spot then?..Nash? Kidd? Iverson?..I understand some arguments, curious about who you would pick though..

[The_Game]

is he the best ever? i cant think of anyone better.

w57zCDR81LQ

i know its an old video but im bored.

good lord...the overrating of Manu is getting out of contol.

[greensborohill]

I will say this, Dirk has just put up better numbers as his team's number one option, for a far longer time... for a perennial "contender," no less...

And Manu while enjoying the benefit of not having to play as the number one option for the Spurs at any point during the regular season (during his prime)... could always be counted on when it mattered the most - in the clutch... No one can argue that he wasn't the lightning plug that catapulted the Spurs to a championship in 2005. Duncan, while highly effective (as always) took a back seat during that run due the severely sprained ankle he was nursing at the time...

So one could argue that when Manu was in his prime he was an unstoppable force... and led his teams to championships... (see Argentina GOLD medal winning team in '04 and during his playoff run in '05). Manu took it hard to the rim and seemingly scored at will, or got to the line... his decision-making was impeccable. That playoff run was one for the ages as far as international players are concerned.

When Dirk was in his prime he... he accomplished... ummm... an MVP season?? A Finals embarrassment....??

You keep Dirk....

I'll take Manu.


http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0605/nba_a_nowitzki_430.jpg

[BlackBellamy]

Damn you people are ignorant, Yuta Tabuse is clearly the single Greatest International Player Of All Time! The Japanese Michael Jordan! Fer Chrissakes!

[DAF86]

I'm not as familiar with FIBA, so I won't comment in detail, since I don't wanna pretend to know something that I don't..so I'm just speaking from an individual standpoint in the NBA, where Dirk has obviously proven a lot..

Who would you put ahead of Dirk for the 5th spot then?..Nash? Kidd? Iverson?..I understand some arguments, curious about who you would pick though..

Dirk like Tony spent pretty much his whole career on the NBA so yes I'm comparing him to NBA players, and yes out of the top of my head all those guys are above Dirk on the "players of this generation" list. You said that Dirk 's been an all-NBA caliber player for the majority of his career and that he's led a team to the Finals. But the same can be said about Iverson and Kidd (he lead his team to the finals twice) and Nash hasn't got there but he got pretty close and he was elected two times MVP.

[benefactor]

Anyone that thinks that Manu > Dirk isn't at least arguable hasn't seen even half of Manu's career.
I'm talking NBA. If you take away Manu and replace him with Dirk starting in 02-03 we probably would have won 6 or 7 titles by now.

[greensborohill]

I would rather have Dirk for a season but for a game 7 of playoffs or one game of single elimination in FIBA I take Manu every time over Dirk.

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0605/nba_a_nowitzki_430.jpg

Game 7 BTW

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260522024

[sonic21]

Sabonis > Dirk > Manu

[anonoftheinternets]

international career = manu
NBA career = dirk .. /thread ...
OP should be clear as to best international player in NBA or in International games.

[DAF86]

I'm talking NBA. If you take away Manu and replace him with Dirk starting in 02-03 we probably would have won 6 or 7 titles by now.

I'm just talking about them as basketball players, I already said that Manu doesn't have the individual accolades or stats to be considered the best international player on the NBA, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that he got to the league at age 24 instead of 20-21 like most guys nowadays. Many of Manu's best years were wasted with him trying to adjust to the NBA.

And I don't know about that last part, I don't think that would have been the case.

[DAF86]

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0605/nba_a_nowitzki_430.jpg

http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv104/COCHIfz/2Fmedia2Ffinals20072FPARADE4_627_07.jpg http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv104/COCHIfz/ManuGold1.jpg

[greensborohill]

http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv104/COCHIfz/2Fmedia2Ffinals20072FPARADE4_627_07.jpg http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv104/COCHIfz/ManuGold1.jpg

Must be nice for him being the 2nd Banana. . . . wish Dirk had someone as good as he is to be his Second Banana.

Point still stands.

The arguement that Dirk doesn't show up in the clutch is bullsh!t.

37, 15, 3 assists, and the game tying ballz to the wall and 1.


Dirk > Manu

[dirk4mvp]

I wonder if manu fans realize if Manu for Dirk was on the table, and Cuban was kinda tipsy and agreed to it, Manu wouldn't have time to pick his gigantic fucking nose before he had to be on a plane to Dallas.

[weebo]

You are stupid.

Is that your retort? Make a case why Euro ball was on par with the US pre Dream Team instead of hurling insults like an imbecile. Fact remains, that Sabonis, not unlike all the euro scrubs of the time, were no where near NBA caliber and in fact overrated.

[sonic21]

Argentina - Manu, Scola, Nocioni...
Germany - Dirk, scrub, super scrub...

Dirk managed to win some medals (Euro, WC) with his weak NT usually being the mvp of the tournament. He's always double or triple teamed, i don't think Manu would be as effective if he had the same treatment.

[benefactor]

I'm just talking about them as basketball players, I already said that Manu doesn't have the individual accolades or stats to be considered the best international player on the NBA, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that he got to the league at age 24 instead of 20-21 like most guys nowadays. Many of Manu's best years were wasted with him trying to adjust to the NBA.

And I don't know about that last part, I don't think that would have been the case.
Of course you don't think that would have been the case...you are a homer.

You said, "I would take prime Manu over prime Dirk." Allow me to give you a bit more meat on the subject as to help you understand why you are wrong.

Both players are great and equally productive. Dirk gets the nod for two big reasons. First, he is completely unguardable. He is basically a seven foot tall SG/SF. If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a title away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six titles.

The second..and possibly biggest reason is their style of play. Dirk is a finesse big man and Manu is a balls to the wall SG. Manu puts his body on the line every night and because of that he is always at risk for injury. Dirk on the other hand, is completely opposite. His style of play is to avoid contact and use is high release to shoot over his opponent. The largest number of games that Dirk has missed in any one season since 99-00 is 6.

So unless you'd like to come up with some other sort of homerific argument that refutes any of this I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. You take Dirk in his prime every single time.

[DAF86]

Argentina - Manu, Scola, Nocioni...
Germany - Dirk, scrub, super scrub...

Dirk managed to win some medals (Euro, WC) with his weak NT usually being the mvp of the tournament. He's always double or triple teamed, i don't think Manu would be as effective if he had the same treatment.

I wouldn't call Shawn Bradley, Chris Kaman, Patrick Femerling and Ademola Okulaja scrubs.

And Manu on international tournaments has been double or triple teamed the same or more than Dirk so stop making things up.

[urunobili]

i don't think Manu would be as effective if he had the same treatment.

You're starting to sound like vander... :wakeup

[greensborohill]

Of course you don't think that would have been the case...you are a homer.

You said, "I would take prime Manu over prime Dirk." Allow me to give you a bit more meat on the subject as to help you understand why you are wrong.

Both players are great and equally productive. Dirk gets the nod for two big reasons. First, he is completely unguardable. He is basically a seven foot tall SG/SF. If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a title away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six titles.

The second..and possibly biggest reason is their style of play. Dirk is a finesse big man and Manu is a balls to the wall SG. Manu puts his body on the line every night and because of that he is always at risk for injury. Dirk on the other hand, is completely opposite. His style of play is to avoid contact and use is high release to shoot over his opponent. The largest number of games that Dirk has missed in any one season since 99-00 is 6.

So unless you'd like to come up with some other sort of homerific argument that refutes any of this I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. You take Dirk in his prime every single time.


Respect!

[DAF86]

Of course you don't think that would have been the case...you are a homer.

You said, "I would take prime Manu over prime Dirk." Allow me to give you a bit more meat on the subject as to help you understand why you are wrong.

Both players are great and equally productive. Dirk gets the nod for two big reasons. First, he is completely unguardable. He is basically a seven foot tall SG/SF. If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a title away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six titles.

The second..and possibly biggest reason is their style of play. Dirk is a finesse big man and Manu is a balls to the wall SG. Manu puts his body on the line every night and because of that he is always at risk for injury. Dirk on the other hand, is completely opposite. His style of play is to avoid contact and use is high release to shoot over his opponent. The largest number of games that Dirk has missed in any one season since 99-00 is 6.

So unless you'd like to come up with some other sort of homerific argument that refutes any of this I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. You take Dirk in his prime every single time.

You never know maybe the Spurs wouldn't have defeated the Lakers in 2003 with Dirk instead of Manu and without that tittle you may not have 2005 and 2007 and in 2005 the Spurs definitely don't win it all with Dirk instead of Manu. You're talking about things that can't be proved so don't come here like you are stating a fact, 'cause you aren't, you are just stating your opinion.

[sonic21]

ok DAF, you're clearly a homer.

And urunobili, are you saying that because i'm french?

i will also defend dirk if someone is saying Tony > Dirk.
In fact right now i still think Manu (if healthy) > Tony.

[DAF86]

So unless you'd like to come up with some other sort of homerific argument that refutes any of this I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. You take Dirk in his prime every single time.

That a team consisting of Duncan, Iverson, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Jason Kidd, etc would beat a team consisting of Manu, Scola, Oberto and Nocioni is pretty much a no-brainer too right?

[weebo]

If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a title away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six titles.


Is a person here not allowed to stick to their guns without being called a homer? Sure, Dirk has been great but isn't the measure of greatness based on team accomplishments? Manu's body or work over the years both in the NBA and international play is greater than Dirk's...and this much is fact. On the other hand, you base your argument on the hypothetical and you can't substantiate your claims with any true evidence.

[ploto]

I really do not see how you can claim Manu as the best international player ever to play in the NBA when several others have received the NBA MVP Award?

[greensborohill]

That a team consisting of Duncan, Iverson, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Jason Kidd, etc would beat a team consisting of Manu, Scola, Oberto and Nocioni is pretty much a no-brainer too right?

Exactly.

[DAF86]

ok DAF, you're clearly a homer.

And urunobili, are you saying that because i'm french?

i will also defend dirk if someone is saying Tony > Dirk.
In fact right now i still think Manu (if healthy) > Tony.

I'd be a homer if I'd be saying that I'd take Manu on his prime over Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, etc. But not Dirk.

Sorry but I don't think as higlhy about Nowitzki as you do guys.

[DAF86]

I really do not see how you can claim Manu as the best international player ever to play in the NBA when several others have received the NBA MVP Award?

Who in here has said that?

[ploto]

isn't the measure of greatness based on team accomplishments?

So, then Beno by virtue of his two NBA Titles is better than all the international players who have never even won one?

[DAF86]

Exactly.

And what has reality shown us?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Nope.

[urunobili]

ok DAF, you're clearly a homer.

And urunobili, are you saying that because i'm french?

i will also defend dirk if someone is saying Tony > Dirk.
In fact right now i still think Manu (if healthy) > Tony.

nope... I support the french team... I lived in Paris and I speak French... French people is cool outside the capital...

Parisians by the other hand... :td but there are always excemptions to the rule so I'm sure there has to be cool people from Paris too

The only thing i can't stand from the french that is about to change is going shopping on Sundays...

:stirpot:

[sonic21]

nope... I support the french team... I lived in Paris and I speak French... French people is cool outside the capital...

Parisians by the other hand... :td but there are always excemptions to the rule so I'm sure there has to be cool people from Paris too

The only thing i can't stand from the french that is about to change is going shopping on Sundays...

:stirpot:

where did you live?

[Brazil]

I may be exagerating a little bit, but I think you're overrating him. No way Beckham was a top 20 player in the world at any point of his career.

hummm the temptation is high to answer: give me 20 players better than David during let's say the best David career years 96-97 to 2003-2004.

and no E. Cantano doesn't count.

[Sobe_Kucks]

What Sabonis did in 86 World Championships and the 88 Olympics was win silver (loss by only 2 pts I think) and gold respectively. What he also did during those two tourneys was dominate a center by the name of David Robinson who was about the same age as Sabonis (David 1 year younger). Those of us who were old enough to remember watching, witnessed some very "posterizing" moments where Sabas dunked on Robinson so bad he fell to the floor. Young Sabonis' game was on another level compared to young Robinson's. We know what kinda career David had. To expect the same of Sabonis would not have been a stretch. The NBA never saw Sabas in his prime. We've seen Manu in his prime and we've also seen Manu hurt many a time during the season. Manu's health sholud probably be considered when comparing him to Dork.

[weebo]

So, then Beno by virtue of his two NBA Titles is better than all the international players who have never even won one?

Beno won rings by riding the coattails of guys like Duncan and Manu not by actually contributing to a title.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Argentina - Manu, Scola, Nocioni...
Germany - Dirk, scrub, super scrub...

Dirk managed to win some medals (Euro, WC) with his weak NT usually being the mvp of the tournament. He's always double or triple teamed, i don't think Manu would be as effective if he had the same treatment.

WTF?

Silver medal at one Euro championship, bronze medal at one world championship..........

one MVP award at Euro championship and one MVP at world championship

How the hell do those medals = Manu's medals? How the hell does that 2 MVPs in his entire international career = "usually being the mvp of the tournament"?

I guess you are a Dirk homer.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

I really do not see how you can claim Manu as the best international player ever to play in the NBA when several others have received the NBA MVP Award?

It is obviously Hakeem.

[sonic21]

WTF?

Silver medal at one Euro championship, bronze medal at one world championship..........

one MVP award at Euro championship and one MVP at world championship

How the hell do those medals = Manu's medals?

i never said that, i guess you missed my point comcast.

not surprising

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

What Sabonis did in 86 World Championships and the 88 Olympics was win silver (loss by only 2 pts I think) and gold respectively. What he also did during those two tourneys was dominate a center by the name of David Robinson who was about the same age as Sabonis (David 1 year younger). Those of us who were old enough to remember watching, witnessed some very "posterizing" moments where Sabas dunked on Robinson so bad he fell to the floor. Young Sabonis' game was on another level compared to young Robinson's. We know what kinda career David had. To expect the same of Sabonis would not have been a stretch. The NBA never saw Sabas in his prime. We've seen Manu in his prime and we've also seen Manu hurt many a time during the season. Manu's health sholud probably be considered when comparing him to Dork.

Let me properyl educate you.

In that same era Galis was TWICE as good as Sabonis and DOMINATED him. Both in 1987 and 1989 Galis and Greecedefeated Soviet Union at the European championship and DOMINATED Sabonis in both games.

The ONLY reason why Soviet Union even played in those 1988 Olympics was because Greek basketball federation defaulted on their place. It was Greece and Galis that was THE best team in the world then.

Just remember Soviets beat Team USA and Sabonis outplayed Robinson, but Greece beat Soviet Union and Galis DOMINATED Soviet Union.

It is outrageous the lack of knowledge US fans have about their own American player Galis. Do you even realize that the team of Sabonis at 88 Olympics was their because the European champions Greece defaulted on their place?

What the fuck is wrong with basketball fans in the US? Galis was the Jordan of Europe for about 15 years and you fools do not even fucking know who he is.

[HarlemHeat37]

Isn't Galis a SG?..tough to compare it like that..

I've read a little about him, but his scoring was pretty much most of it..how was his all-around game/all-around numbers?..

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Isn't Galis a SG?..tough to compare it like that..

I've read a little about him, but his scoring was pretty much most of it..how was his all-around game/all-around numbers?..

He led Euroleague in field goal percentage, scoring, assists. How many players do this and all in same season?

[Knoxxx]

Put Manu on a team without the big 3 situation, and he is easily a 25-point scorer, if not upper 20s (in his prime years). He's every bit the scorer Dirk is, but has a much better overall game since Dirk is a big man that plays soft. Take away Dirk's sweet jumper, and Manu has more game in his little pinky than in Dirk's entire big unathletic body.

[Phenomanul]

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0605/nba_a_nowitzki_430.jpg

:lol
And how'd that turnout?

Does D'whistle still give you nightmares???

I didn't say Manu was perfect.
but he does have 3 of these:
:lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: an Olympic Gold and a Bronze...

Again you all keep Dirk...

We'll keep Manu...

[Findog]

Is a person here not allowed to stick to their guns without being called a homer? Sure, Dirk has been great but isn't the measure of greatness based on team accomplishments? Manu's body or work over the years both in the NBA and international play is greater than Dirk's...and this much is fact. On the other hand, you base your argument on the hypothetical and you can't substantiate your claims with any true evidence.

So I guess LeBron James isn't as good a player as Manu because he wasn't the best player on a Gold Medal Squad and has 0 rings? And it's a ridiculous argument full of hypothetical conjecture to say San Antonio would be better off and would've won more rings with a prime LBJ instead of a prime Manu?

Argentina: Manu and several other NBA caliber players.
Germany: Dirk and a bunch of dudes that couldn't hold the court at a 24 Hour Fitness.

Manu is a #2 guy. Dirk is a #1 guy. Manu has the same number of championships as the best player on his team that Dirk does: 0. Dirk has 1 more Finals appearance as the best player on his team than Manu does: 1. Put Dirk alongside Duncan and he has 3 rings, if not more.

[Findog]

I didn't say Manu was perfect.
but he does have 3 of these:
:lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: an Olympic Gold and a Bronze...

Again you all keep Dirk...

We'll keep Manu...

:lmao

Yeah, I'm real impressed with Manu being the 2nd-best player on a title team. Or that he won a Gold with a stacked Argentinian squad. Swap out Dirk for Manu on any squad and they're better off.

Manu > LBJ I guess, since he has 3 more rings and was the best player on a Gold Medal Squad.

[Findog]

I guess Hakeem doesn't count as a foreigner since he played for the US in the 96 Olympics.

Dirk or Sabonis have to be considered > Manu.

[monosylab1k]

If you're not counting Hakeem as an international player (which he really wasn't), then Sabonis is easily the best international player of all time.

The Dirk vs. Manu argument is merely to know who is a distant 2nd place.

[Phenomanul]

So I guess LeBron James isn't as good a player as Manu because he wasn't the best player on a Gold Medal Squad and has 0 rings? And it's a ridiculous argument full of hypothetical conjecture to say San Antonio would be better off and would've won more rings with a prime LBJ instead of a prime Manu?

Argentina: Manu and several other NBA caliber players.
Germany: Dirk and a bunch of dudes that couldn't hold the court at a 24 Hour Fitness.

Manu is a #2 guy. Dirk is a #1 guy. Manu has the same number of championships as the best player on his team that Dirk does: 0. Dirk has 1 more Finals appearance as the best player on his team than Manu does: 1. Put Dirk alongside Duncan and he has 3 rings, if not more.

The offense ran through Nash, not Dirk all those seasons that they played together. And don't forget that Finley was the No. 1 guy on the Mavericks during Dirk's first 4 seasons...

Fact of the matter is that Dirk has only been the No. 1 guy since Nash bolted for Phoenix.... and he has had very capable, all-star caliber players around him his whole career. The Mavs are still ringless.

[Rogue]

:lol
And how'd that turnout?

Does D'whistle still give you nightmares???

I didn't say Manu was perfect.
but he does have 3 of these:
:lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: an Olympic Gold and a Bronze...

Again you all keep Dirk...

We'll keep Manu...
The Mavs wouldn't have gone that far in 06 without Dirk, not to mention winning the championship eventually. Of course, it's not a doable job for Manu to carry 14 jump shooters into the NBA finals. And I can pledge you that the Spurs would have won 5 championships in a row from 03-07 with Manu swapped for Dirk. I would say Robert Horry is a better player than Manu if the rings are used as the only measurement to judge a player.

[Findog]

The offense ran through Nash, not Dirk all those seasons that they played together.

Dirk has been the Mavericks best player since the 01-02 season. That's when he emerged as our #1 guy. Nash and Finley were still on the roster.



Fact of the matter is that Dirk has only been the No. 1 guy since Nash bolted for Phoenix....

Wrong. Dirk has been the #1 guy since early in the 01-02 season.


nd he has had very capable, all-star caliber players around him his whole career. The Mavs are still ringless.


And they would've never sniffed a Conference Finals appearance, much less a Finals, with Manu instead of Dirk.

[Phenomanul]

:lmao

Yeah, I'm real impressed with Manu being the 2nd-best player on a title team. Or that he won a Gold with a stacked Argentinian squad. Swap out Dirk for Manu on any squad and they're better off.

Manu > LBJ I guess, since he has 3 more rings and was the best player on a Gold Medal Squad.

Talentwise, Team USA was far superior to Argentina's squad. It's not even debateable.

Manu singlehandedly willed his team to a Gold... you must not have seen his performances against the US both at the 2002 WC in Indianapolis or at the 2004 Athens games...

And since you like debating hypotheticals... swapping Manu with Dirk on that Argentinian squad would have resulted in a victory for the US Squad.... simple as that.

[Phenomanul]

And they would've never sniffed a Conference Finals appearance, much less a Finals, with Manu instead of Dirk.

Which is why Manu's win-shares are only second to Larry Legend's???

Try again.

[Findog]

And since you like debating hypotheticals... swapping Manu with Dirk on that Argentinian squad would have resulted in a victory for the US Squad.... simple as that.

Germany doesn't qualify for the Olympics with Manu instead of Dirk.

[ElNono]

LOL Dirk... He's as accomplished in the international stage as JJ Barea...

Nowinski needs to win something at ANY level to even take part in this thread...

[Findog]

Which is why Manu's win-shares are only second to Larry Legend's???

Try again.

Win shares? Win shares? What the fuck is that? Are you citing Dave Berri as an authority figure, the same guy who said Dennis Rodman was a more productive player than Michael Jordan on the second run of Bulls title teams?

What exactly is your argument? Manu > Dirk?

[ElNono]

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0605/nba_a_nowitzki_430.jpg

http://www.davidestrada.com/nbamatchup/ManuGold.jpg
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1030/nba_ap_spurs_ring_300.jpg

[Rogue]

LOL Dirk... He's as accomplished in the international stage as JJ Barea...

Nowinski needs to win something at ANY level to even take part in this thread...
NBA regular season MOST VALUABLE PLAYER

Even Mbenga has got a ring, and delfino has also got a Gold medal together with Manu. :lol

[Findog]

LOL Dirk... He's as accomplished in the international stage as JJ Barea...

If Manu could take that German team farther than Dirk, then there would be something to your argument. It's like saying Amare is better than KG because the Suns were winning 55+ games and going to the playoffs while the Wolves were in lottery land.


Nowitski needs to win something at ANY level to even take part in this thread...

Dirk has 1 more Finals appearance than Manu does as the best player on his team. When the day comes that a team wins a title with Manu as the best player, then I'll concede Manu is a better player than Dirk.

[Phenomanul]

The Mavs wouldn't have gone that far in 06 without Dirk, not to mention winning the championship eventually.

But they didn't.



Of course, it's not a doable job for Manu to carry 14 jump shooters into the NBA finals.

How would anyone know for sure?




And I can pledge you that the Spurs would have won 5 championships in a row from 03-07 with Manu swapped for Dirk.

Derek Fisher's 0.4 and one mistake by Manu (which couldn't negate the incredibly horrid officiating in games 3, and 4).

Could have led to the same scenario.... except this one is far more plausible.

It simply wasn't meant to be... Nevertheless the 2004 and 2006 versions of the Spurs were still Championship Level Squads.



I would say Robert Horry is a better player than Manu if the rings are used as the only measurement to judge a player.

Robert is a unique and highly clutch player... his greatest gift however, was knowing how to pair up with the dominant big-men of his day.

[jag]

The Argies who come in here and attempt to convince everyone that Manu > Dirk make actual Spurs fans look retarded.

[Phenomanul]

Germany doesn't qualify for the Olympics with Manu instead of Dirk.

So does an Argentina squad with Dirk instead of Manu beat the US in both 2002 and 2004???

[Phenomanul]

The Argies who come in here and attempt to convince everyone that Manu > Dirk make actual Spurs fans look retarded.

I'm not Argentinian...

[jag]

I'm not Argentinian...

Even worse...

[Findog]

So does an Argentina squad with Dirk instead of Manu beat the US in both 2002 and 2004???

I'd like their chances...because if Dirk were born in Argentina, that means he'd be playing with the national squad and developing chemistry over a long span of time just like Manu did...whereas the US squads were thrown together in a haphazard fashion with little emphasis on what works in FIBA as opposed to the NBA.

[ElNono]

If Manu could take that German team farther than Dirk, then there would be something to your argument. It's like saying Amare is better than KG because the Suns were winning 55+ games and going to the playoffs while the Wolves were in lottery land.

You would have a point if those Argentina teams would have even won a single medal without Ginobili. He had talented teammates, but none a superstar, except himself. He doesn't play for Germany, so we won't know.


Dirk has 1 more Finals appearance than Manu does as the best player on his team. When the day comes that a team wins a title with Manu as the best player, then I'll concede Manu is a better player than Dirk.

That's actually very incorrect. Manu has 3 more Finals appearances than Dirk as the best player on his team, including winning 3 and being the tournament AND Finals MVP.

[Findog]

That's actually very incorrect. Manu has 3 more Finals appearances than Dirk as the best player on his team,

:wow

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/25780.gif

[jag]

That's actually very incorrect. Manu has 3 more Finals appearances than Dirk as the best player on his team, including winning 3 and being the tournament AND Finals MVP.

Manu has been on better teams and had better coaching...but as far as individual talent, i have no idea how anyone can argue that Manu is a better player.

[ElNono]

The Argies who come in here and attempt to convince everyone that Manu > Dirk make actual Spurs fans look retarded.

Career wise, it's not even up for debate: Manu > Dirk. If you're just talking innate basketball talent, then Dirk is the more talented player. T-Mac is arguably more talented than Manu too if you were to play a one on one game.
But we're talking basketball, where you have to consider much more than simply who scores more.

[Phenomanul]

If Manu could take that German team farther than Dirk, then there would be something to your argument. It's like saying Amare is better than KG because the Suns were winning 55+ games and going to the playoffs while the Wolves were in lottery land.

Dirk has 1 more Finals appearance than Manu does as the best player on his team. When the day comes that a team wins a title with Manu as the best player, then I'll concede Manu is a better player than Dirk.

Manu has been the best player on every team he's played for not named the San Antonio Spurs...

Result:

He's won with every team, at every level... it's not his fault he was paired up with someone greater (Tim Duncan) during the prime of his career... an event which would preclude the silly criteria you are gauging him by (not being the No.1 guy on an NBA team)...

[ElNono]

:wow

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/25780.gif

I'm not talking about his Spurs years...

[Findog]

Career wise, it's not even up for debate: Manu > Dirk. If you're just talking innate basketball talent, then Dirk is the more talented player. T-Mac is arguably more talented than Manu too if you were to play a one on one game.
But we're talking basketball, where you have to consider much more than simply who scores more.

Manu has more hardware. That doesn't mean he's had the better career. By that I reckon Robert Horry > Kobe Bryant.

[Rogue]

You would have a point if those Argentina teams would have even won a single medal without Ginobili. He had talented teammates, but none a superstar, except himself. He doesn't play for Germany, so we won't know.



That's actually very incorrect. Manu has 3 more Finals appearances than Dirk as the best player on his team, including winning 3 and being the tournament AND Finals MVP.
Manu was the MVP in 05 finals, but still not enough to beat Dirk who carried a jump-shooting team to NBA finals in the next year and got elected regular season MVP in the second season.

[Findog]

I'm not talking about his Spurs years...

I'm not aware of Manu making it to the Finals 3 times otherwise.

[ElNono]

Manu has been on better teams and had better coaching...but as far as individual talent, i have no idea how anyone can argue that Manu is a better player.

Dirk can make more shots more often. That's talent. There's much more to basketball than that.

[Findog]

Manu was the MVP in 05 finals.

No, he wasn't. He came up a vote or two short of tying Duncan for co-MVP. Parker has a Finals MVP too, but ask anybody on that Cleveland squad who was the best player and you won't get TP as the answer.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

So I guess LeBron James isn't as good a player as Manu because he wasn't the best player on a Gold Medal Squad and has 0 rings? And it's a ridiculous argument full of hypothetical conjecture to say San Antonio would be better off and would've won more rings with a prime LBJ instead of a prime Manu?

Argentina: Manu and several other NBA caliber players.
Germany: Dirk and a bunch of dudes that couldn't hold the court at a 24 Hour Fitness.

Manu is a #2 guy. Dirk is a #1 guy. Manu has the same number of championships as the best player on his team that Dirk does: 0. Dirk has 1 more Finals appearance as the best player on his team than Manu does: 1. Put Dirk alongside Duncan and he has 3 rings, if not more.

Dirk had Kaman on his team and still didn't win shit. Stop making up things.

[Findog]

Dirk can make more shots more often. That's talent. There's much more to basketball than that.

Yeah, you're right. Dirk is nothing but a white Bob McAdoo. That's why he's also not a better player than Amare Stoudemire or Chris Bosh. :rolleyes

[jag]

Career wise, it's not even up for debate: Manu > Dirk. If you're just talking innate basketball talent, then Dirk is the more talented player. T-Mac is arguably more talented than Manu too if you were to play a one on one game.
But we're talking basketball, where you have to consider much more than simply who scores more.

Robert Horry has 7 rings. Has he had a better career than Manu?

Your argument is ridiculous. Which player would you have drafted if they were both available at the same time in whichever draft?

Manu has been apart of better teams and better systems...so what? Dirk is still a better player, and he will be remembered as such.

[Findog]

Dirk had Kaman on his team and still didn't win shit. Stop making up things.

Kaman is a lumbering stiff with foot problems. Who gives a shit?

[Rogue]

Career wise, it's not even up for debate: Manu > Dirk. If you're just talking innate basketball talent, then Dirk is the more talented player. T-Mac is arguably more talented than Manu too if you were to play a one on one game.
But we're talking basketball, where you have to consider much more than simply who scores more.
You should also agree Horry > Jordan as Jordan only has 6 rings while Horry has 7.

[ElNono]

I'm not aware of Manu making it to the Finals 3 times otherwise.

Actually I forgot one more...

- Olympic games Final
- World Championship Final
- Euroleague Final
- Italian Final
- Italian Cup Final

The Worlds is the only one he didn't win (yet).

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

If you're not counting Hakeem as an international player (which he really wasn't), then Sabonis is easily the best international player of all time.

The Dirk vs. Manu argument is merely to know who is a distant 2nd place.

Sabonis was 4th best just in Europe in his era.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Talentwise, Team USA was far superior to Argentina's squad. It's not even debateable.

Manu singlehandedly willed his team to a Gold... you must not have seen his performances against the US both at the 2002 WC in Indianapolis or at the 2004 Athens games...

And since you like debating hypotheticals... swapping Manu with Dirk on that Argentinian squad would have resulted in a victory for the US Squad.... simple as that.

You must not have seen gold medal game in 2004. Scola led Argentina to the gold medal win over Italy not Manu. I love Manu but let us not make up lies here.

[ElNono]

You should also agree Horry > Jordan as Jordan only has 6 rings while Horry has 7.

No. There's defense. There's the extra effort to will your teams to win. There's leadership. Those are qualities that go beyond your innate talent, and are absolutely required.

[Rogue]

Sabonis was 4th best just in Europe in his era.
yes, Sabonis isn't Greek.

[IronMexican]

I know Dirk wont get hurt on purpose and miss the playoffs.

[jag]

Actually I forgot one more...

- Olympic games Final
- World Championship Final
- Euroleague Final
- Italian Final
- Italian Cup Final

The Worlds is the only one he didn't win (yet).

Manu has been great against lesser European talent. Dirk was the MVP in a league with the world's best.

[ElNono]

Yeah, you're right. Dirk is nothing but a white Bob McAdoo. That's why he's also not a better player than Amare Stoudemire or Chris Bosh. :rolleyes

McAdoo has 2 NBA titles. Call me back when Dirk gets there.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

I'd like their chances...because if Dirk were born in Argentina, that means he'd be playing with the national squad and developing chemistry over a long span of time just like Manu did...whereas the US squads were thrown together in a haphazard fashion with little emphasis on what works in FIBA as opposed to the NBA.

Your excuses are laughable. EVERY single team changes out 3-4 players every tournament, even ones like Argentina and Spain.

Team USA has same core of players together every year just like them. Also Greece for example changes like 5-6 rotation players almost every tournament. Your made up fantasy excuses for Team USA are ridiculous.

[Findog]

Actually I forgot one more...

- Olympic games Final
- World Championship Final
- Euroleague Final
- Italian Final
- Italian Cup Final

The Worlds is the only one he didn't win (yet).

So the fuck what? Dirk was an NBA rookie at 19, and established himself as a good player by the time he was 21. Manu wasn't good enough to play in the NBA until he was 25. I'm pretty sure Dirk would have some minor-league trophies of his own if he had stuck around that long.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

You would have a point if those Argentina teams would have even won a single medal without Ginobili. He had talented teammates, but none a superstar, except himself. He doesn't play for Germany, so we won't know.

Argentina won the bronze medal game against Lithuania at 2008 Olympics without Manu. I am starting to think most here do not even watch FIBA tournaments.

[Findog]

McAdoo has 2 NBA titles. .

Brian Scalabrine and DJ Mbenga each have a ring.

[jag]

McAdoo has 2 NBA titles. Call me back when Dirk gets there.

Switch Manu with Dirk and the Spurs have 8 titles and Manu would never have seen the WCF while leading the Mavs.

[ElNono]

Manu has been great against lesser European talent. Dirk was the MVP in a league with the world's best.

Manu actually had to go through Dirk *AND* Team USA to get to at least 2 of those Finals. You can't just chalk it up to lesser talent. He has won his good share in the NBA also, making the All Star team and willing his team to a good chunk of wins in the playoffs to capture those 3 championships he has.
While I can't say he was the best player on those teams, you can't say he was not an integral part of any of them. And yeah, I'm including 2003.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Kaman is a lumbering stiff with foot problems. Who gives a shit?

That you make up nonsense over and over. Dirk had several good teammates for example in 2008. So STFU.

[ElNono]

Argentina won the bronze medal game against Lithuania at 2008 Olympics without Manu. I am starting to think most here do not even watch FIBA tournaments.

Fuck you Gyro. We don't make it there without Manu averaging 20 ppg on all the previous games.

[Rogue]

No. There's defense. There's the extra effort to will your teams to win. There's leadership. Those are qualities that go beyond your innate talent, and are absolutely required.
Manu only won 1 gold medal as the leader of his team, though no one gives a crap to the Olympics. On the Spurs team, Manu was just the leader of several bench-off players and even Tony Longoria was more of a leader when both of them were on court. Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan were the framework of the Spurs defensive system, which made the entire team so great in defense, but i can't see Manu has done more in this area than any other Spur has.

[Findog]

Manu actually had to go through Dirk *AND* Team USA to get to at least 2 of those Finals.

Argentina >>>> Germany
Dirk >>> Manu.

[jag]

Manu actually had to go through Dirk *AND* Team USA to get to at least 2 of those Finals. You can't just chalk it up to lesser talent. He has won his good share in the NBA also, making the All Star team and willing his team to a good chunk of wins in the playoffs to capture those 3 championships he has.
While I can't say he was the best player on those teams, you can't say he was not an integral part of any of them. And yeah, I'm including 2003.

You're hyping him for making one all star appearance? Manu is a great player and has had a great career, but you're making a ridiculous argument. It's been easy for manu to showcase his talent while he's 3rd on the mind of opposing defenses.

[monosylab1k]

Sabonis was 4th best just in Europe in his era.

die.

[Rogue]

Argentina won the bronze medal game against Lithuania at 2008 Olympics without Manu. I am starting to think most here do not even watch FIBA tournaments.
you're right, no one here has ever given a crap to FIBA tournaments even when team US gets involved.

[ElNono]

So the fuck what? Dirk was an NBA rookie at 19, and established himself as a good player by the time he was 21. Manu wasn't good enough to play in the NBA until he was 25. I'm pretty sure Dirk would have some minor-league trophies of his own if he had stuck around that long.

It's not Manu's fault they didn't brought them in when he was drafted in 1999.
His team won the Euroleague in 2001, and he was the MVP.
Plus Dirk started to show what he got in 2002, the year before Manu showed up in the league.

[Findog]

Manu has been the best player on every team he's played for not named the San Antonio Spurs...

You're seriously bringing up the Italian League and Europe? Who fricken cares? The NBA has 75% of the best players in the world. It's like bragging about some Double A minor-league baseball farm club winning the Carolina League. Dirk was already a good NBA player at the age of 21. Manu was a 25 year old rookie and had to continue honing his game until he was ready to play with the big boys. Manu is a borderline All Star, a great #3 option and a good #2 option. Dirk is a franchise player.

[Findog]

It's not Manu's fault they didn't brought them in when he was drafted in 1999.
His team won the Euroleague in 2001, and he was the MVP.
Plus Dirk started to show what he got in 2002, the year before Manu showed up in the league.

It's like bragging that you led all of Triple A in batting average or something. Lower level play should not and usually does not merit much consideration. I don't disagree that Manu is a fierce competitor. I've seen him kill himself for his team. But that doesn't make him better than Dirk.

[Solid D]

Sabonis was 4th best just in Europe in his era.

Maybe stats-wise. For 15 years or so, except for a couple of years he missed due to injuries, he was a dominant European player. He patroled the lane, he was one of the best passing pivots in the history of basketball, and he was a winner. It's all subjective.

[ElNono]

:cheer Go Dirk Go :cheer

[ElNono]

You're hyping him for making one all star appearance? Manu is a great player and has had a great career, but you're making a ridiculous argument. It's been easy for manu to showcase his talent while he's 3rd on the mind of opposing defenses.

No, I'm actually destroying your weak ass argument that Manu can only stand out against lesser opponents.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Manu

1 Olympic Gold Medal

1 Triple Crown Championship*

1 Euroleague Championship*

1 Italian League Championship

2 Italian Cup Championships

1 FIBA Americas Championship

= 7 Championships

*Only half of the teams even played in the league that year due to the breaking up of FIBA existing as a league.

Spanoulis

1 FIBA European Championship
(European Championship is rated as a harder tournament by FIBA)

1 Triple Crown Championship

1 Euroleague Championship

3 Greek League Championships
(Greek League is harder to win than Italian League - best team in Italy would be 3rd best team in Greece)

3 Greek Cup Championships
(Greek Cup is harder to win than Italian Cup - best team in Italy would be 3rd best team in Greece)

= 9 Championships

No asterisks next to Euroleague and Triple Crown Championships of Spanoulis

[dirk4mvp]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

So the fuck what? Dirk was an NBA rookie at 19, and established himself as a good player by the time he was 21. Manu wasn't good enough to play in the NBA until he was 25. I'm pretty sure Dirk would have some minor-league trophies of his own if he had stuck around that long.

You are retarded.

[ElNono]

Manu

1 Olympic Gold Medal

1 Triple Crown Championship*

1 Euroleague Championship*

1 Italian League Championship

2 Italian Cup Championships

1 FIBA Americas Championship

= 7 Championships

*Only half of the teams even played in the league that year due to the breaking up of FIBA existing as a league.

Spanoulis

1 FIBA European Championship
(European Championship is rated as a harder tournament by FIBA)

1 Triple Crown Championship

1 Euroleague Championship

3 Greek League Championships
(Greek League is harder to win than Italian League - best team in Italy would be 3rd best team in Greece)

3 Greek Cup Championships
(Greek Cup is harder to win than Italian Cup - best team in Italy would be 3rd best team in Greece)

= 9 Championships

No asterisks next to Euroleague and Triple Crown Championships of Spanoulis

You forgot Manu's 3 NBA Championships.
Not to mention Manu can't play the Euros because he's actually not European. And Greek Championships ARE TRASH. That's like me trying to count up Manu's championships in Argentina.

[Rogue]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?
Spanoulis > Manu > Dirk, in terms of the championships they each got.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Brian Scalabrine and DJ Mbenga each have a ring.

McAdoo also has an NBA MVP. Do they also have NBA MVPs?

[ChumpDumper]

lol Greek league.

[jag]

No, I'm actually destroying your weak ass argument that Manu can only stand out against lesser opponents.

Please quote me where i said he can only stand out against lesser opponents.

You're creating an argument that doesn't exist. Manu can obviously stand out against quality opponents...no one in this thread is denying that. But you are basing your argument around accomplishments he has made (in Europe) against lesser opponents.

Please continue "destroying" me:

1) Dirk is a better player than Manu.
2) Dirk made his legacy in the NBA while Manu did it overseas against lesser talent.
3) Switch Dirk and Manu in 2003 and the Spurs probably have 7-8 titles and the Mavs would never have seen the NBA finals.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Manu actually had to go through Dirk *AND* Team USA to get to at least 2 of those Finals. You can't just chalk it up to lesser talent. He has won his good share in the NBA also, making the All Star team and willing his team to a good chunk of wins in the playoffs to capture those 3 championships he has.
While I can't say he was the best player on those teams, you can't say he was not an integral part of any of them. And yeah, I'm including 2003.

He was the best player of the 2005 team no matter what the voters said in the Finals.

[lefty]

LOL at this thread

[ElNono]

And for the record, I'll add that Sabonis is my pick for the best. Petrovic was also great.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Fuck you Gyro. We don't make it there without Manu averaging 20 ppg on all the previous games.

You are just mad because it was exposed you did not even watch the bronze medal game in 2008.

[Findog]

McAdoo also has an NBA MVP. Do they also have NBA MVPs?

Dirk is a much better player than McAdoo was. And point to me where I waved pom poms over Dirk's award?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Manu only won 1 gold medal as the leader of his team, though no one gives a crap to the Olympics. On the Spurs team, Manu was just the leader of several bench-off players and even Tony Longoria was more of a leader when both of them were on court. Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan were the framework of the Spurs defensive system, which made the entire team so great in defense, but i can't see Manu has done more in this area than any other Spur has.

He won 2 gold medals idiot.

[dirk4mvp]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?

[Rogue]

You forgot Manu's 3 NBA Championships.
Not to mention Manu can't play the Euros because he's actually not European. And Greek Championships ARE TRASH. That's like me trying to count up Manu's championships in Argentina.
European league hasn't ever legislated any weird rule like prohibiting Americans, Scola has a couple years experience in European league as far as you probably know.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

It's not Manu's fault they didn't brought them in when he was drafted in 1999.
His team won the Euroleague in 2001, and he was the MVP.
Plus Dirk started to show what he got in 2002, the year before Manu showed up in the league.

To be fair though Manu's Euroleague championship and MVP are asterisks. Only half of the teams played in Euroleague that year. The two best teams in Europe in that era did not even play.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

You're seriously bringing up the Italian League and Europe? Who fricken cares? The NBA has 75% of the best players in the world. It's like bragging about some Double A minor-league baseball farm club winning the Carolina League. Dirk was already a good NBA player at the age of 21. Manu was a 25 year old rookie and had to continue honing his game until he was ready to play with the big boys. Manu is a borderline All Star, a great #3 option and a good #2 option. Dirk is a franchise player.

You are insane if you think this is true. Absolutely laughable and absurd.

[Rogue]

He won 2 gold medals idiot.
Who gives a crap about how many gold medals idiots he has gained? I mean he only got 1 gold in Olympics in 04, the medals earned in some inferior games, like in the special Olympics that you always participate in, are not counted at all.

[ElNono]

1) Dirk is a better player than Manu.

I disagree. I think Dirk is more talented. I think Manu is the better overall player.



2) Dirk made his legacy in the NBA while Manu did it overseas against lesser talent.


Manu made his legacy both overseas AND on the NBA. If he would have not been an integral part of those Spurs teams, and won no NBA rings, then we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.


3) Switch Dirk and Manu in 2003 and the Spurs probably have 7-8 titles and the Mavs would never have seen the NBA finals.

Doubtful. I will take Manu in the crunch of any major game over Dirk 9 out of 10 times. Then again, my opinion. Just as respectable as yours.

[jag]

You are insane if you think this is true. Absolutely laughable and absurd.

Why are you here?

[dirk4mvp]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?

[ElNono]

European league hasn't ever legislated any weird rule like prohibiting Americans, Scola has a couple years experience in European league as far as you probably know.

He's talking about the FIBA Euro Championship. Keep up.

[dirk4mvp]

Why are you here?

Isn't it pretty late in Greece?

[ElNono]

You are just mad because it was exposed you did not even watch the bronze medal game in 2008.

Sure, you exposed me. Carry on.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Maybe stats-wise. For 15 years or so, except for a couple of years he missed due to injuries, he was a dominant European player. He patroled the lane, he was one of the best passing pivots in the history of basketball, and he was a winner. It's all subjective.

1. Galis
2. Petrovic
3. Marcilionis
4. Sabonis

Those were best players in 80s in Europe I think

in 90s would be

1. Kukoc
2. Bodiroga
3. Galis
4. Sabonis

NBA fans make up some stupid lie about Sabonis being best European player. Just another way to inflate level of NBA and deflate level of European game.

[ElNono]

2. Bodiroga

lol

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?

Yes he is in today's time.

[dirk4mvp]

Yes he is in today's time.

lol

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

You forgot Manu's 3 NBA Championships.
Not to mention Manu can't play the Euros because he's actually not European. And Greek Championships ARE TRASH. That's like me trying to count up Manu's championships in Argentina.

Greek championships is way harder to win than Italian championship. Greek championship is far harder to win than Spanish one also. If you knew anything about European basketball you would know that.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

lol

:lol

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

lol Greek league.

WTF? People are counting Manu's Italian championships and even the best team in Italy could only hope for 3rd place in Greece.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Please quote me where i said he can only stand out against lesser opponents.

You're creating an argument that doesn't exist. Manu can obviously stand out against quality opponents...no one in this thread is denying that. But you are basing your argument around accomplishments he has made (in Europe) against lesser opponents.

Please continue "destroying" me:

1) Dirk is a better player than Manu.
2) Dirk made his legacy in the NBA while Manu did it overseas against lesser talent.
3) Switch Dirk and Manu in 2003 and the Spurs probably have 7-8 titles and the Mavs would never have seen the NBA finals.

You are crazy for sure. Dirk is soft, plays no defense, he is a choker. He lets physical wing players bully him. No way in hell Spurs win 8 championships with him. You are making most ridiculous posts by far.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

And for the record, I'll add that Sabonis is my pick for the best. Petrovic was also great.

Just more proof you know nothing of European game and just pretend you do.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I think Dirk is more talented. I think Manu is the better overall player.I don't understand this, can you clarify?

[Stevebass18]

Yes he is in today's time.

:lol

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Dirk is a much better player than McAdoo was. And point to me where I waved pom poms over Dirk's award?

Dirk is of course better but why the fuck would you compare McAdoo to Scalabrine and Mbenga? Crazy to say the least.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

European league hasn't ever legislated any weird rule like prohibiting Americans, Scola has a couple years experience in European league as far as you probably know.

WTF? Scola has like 7 years in the Euroleague.

And in those 7 years 0 MVP awards 0 championships.

Of course you probably believe since he is in NBA that he was 7 for 7 all around.

[Findog]

Dirk is of course better but why the fuck would you compare McAdoo to Scalabrine and Mbenga? Crazy to say the least.

Just listing guys who have rings, because rings alone determine who is better.

Michael Doleac > Dirk Nowitzki.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Just listing guys who have rings, because rings alone determine who is better.

Michael Doleac > Dirk Nowitzki.

:lmao

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

lol

Bodiroga embarssed team USA far worse than Manu ever has and did it more than once.

[Kori Ellis]

If the question was which international player has accomplished the most in his career, then you could argue for Manu. But I thought the question was "best player" (meaning most talented).... then that would be a different story.

I guess it depends on your definition of best. I think Manu is incredible, but I don't think he's the best international player to have ever played the game.