Shareef a Spur?

[spur219]

I read this on hoopshype.com. I don't pay much attention to that because they are only rumors but in what way will he become a Spur unless he takes the MLE. Whcih I highly doubt it because I think he will demand more either that or other teams will throw more money at him. If the Spurs would get him it would be a great addition but I highly doubt it.

[Kori Ellis]

That rumor keeps resurfacing over the last few years. He made over $14M this season. I too doubt he would take that huge of a pay cut to come to San Antonio.

He must really like the Spurs though, because that rumor has come up almost every summer for the last three or four years.

[kolko]

http://www.oregonlive.com/canzano/


Shareef Abdur-Rahim told reporters that it's too soon to think about where he's going to play next year. Be sure, it's not Portland. Whisper is, San Antonio is where he'll end up.

[whottt]

How many ex Hawks can Duncan put on his back before it breaks?

We gotta enough ex Hawks on this team...I'd rather us sign Big Dogg than Shareef.

And I call BS on that "whisper'...

SAR hates playing SF...he's said time and time againt that he is a PF, the Blazers refusal to play him at PF is why he wants out of there...

So we are to believe that SAR is going to take the MLE to play on the same team as the best PF in the NBA? I call BS.

On top of that...this guy has never made the playoff in his entire career...and he's played on some very talented teams...this guy is playoff kryptonite...I'd rather have the Big Dogg back...at least he got his team to the playoffs and coference finals...

[Spurminator]

I'd be fine with him as a backup big. I think he could still get 20-25 minutes, including some time on the floor with Duncan.

[timvp]

The only way I want SARS on this team is to come off the bench as a Robert Horry type. Starting him would make this team way too small.

[SPARKY]

Put Radosoft on the block and the sky's the limit...

[whottt]

SAR may have high statistical value but his suck factor migh be the highest of any player in the NBA....

You keep adding guys with a high suck factor like the Spurs have begun to do and you wind up looking like this years TWolves...a talented team that totally underachives.

I have nothing to back my view that SAR has a high suck factor(other than his ability to end 20 year playoff runs just by being on a team)...I just know that AC and Olowokandi have high suck factors...and look at what happened to Garnett...

Some players just suck and SAR is one of them.

What did Duncan do to deserve the hate from Spursfans?

[Kori Ellis]

SAR may have high statistical value but his suck factor migh be the highest of any player in the NBA....

True. That's why I named him in the overrated thread the other day.

[spur219]

I wouldn't want Shareef as a Spur. I dont see him with the heart of winning but a guy that only looks out for himself.

[CosmicCowboy]

He may be a nice player but that is virtually an impossible trade for the Spurs to make because of his salary. Spurs would have to cut the heart out of the existing team and probably even involve a third team just to get it done and adding another PF with Scola coming in doesn't really make any sense at all. I think that reporter in Oregon has been hitting the medicinal marijuana again...

[kolko]

He is the active player with most regular season games played without playing a playoff game.

[jcrod]

I don't think he'll come for less than the MLE and I was under the assumption the Spurs would use it for Scola and Brown. I don't see how, unless they would take Rasho, but the already have someone similar in Pzbyilla.

He would be a nice addition off the bench, a quality back to the basket player coming off the bench.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm not going to defend SAR or argue that his "suck factor" should be diminished, but I dispute the notion that SAR has played on "some very talented teams," and that he's somehow a factor in those teams not making the playoffs.

Dude spent the first 5 years of his career on a Vancouver team that never even sniffed the playoffs -- a team that nobody ever accused of being particularly talented. (they had a few talented players (actually, other than SAR, they had Mike Bibby for a couple of years) but it's really hard to find much other talent on those rosters, evidenced by the fact that Big Country was generally the #2 scorer on SAR's Grizzlies teams).

He spent 2 1/2 years with Atlanta teams that had a few pretty good individual talents, but that was, again, never seen as being particularly talented (both full seasons that SAR was in Atlanta, Dion Glover was a top-5 scorer for those teams; having seen Dion Glover's offensive game up close here, I think I can rest my case).

He went to Portland last year after the already-dysfunctional Blazers began the purge of their roster.

I'm not sure you can accurately accuse this guy of being playoff kryptonite when he hasn't exactly been on teams that had any realistic shot of staying in the playoff race. I'll admit that he might have something to do with that, but for now, it's a little like saying that Cleveland won't ever make the playoffs with Lebron James around. A guy can only do so much.

[Mr. Body]

I'm guessing the guy who "whispered" about it being the Spurs might have been Shareef himself. Who else says this at this point of the year? Here's a guy who's never played a playoff game - ever - looking at an attractive team. How is it going to happen, though? He doesn't like coming off the bench in Portland, is it really that different in San Antonio?

[whottt]

Spin it anyway you want...no one can prove he was the reason those teams sucked...but you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that he didn't make them any better...any of them, ever.

And the Blazers might have been dysfunctional, but that never stopped them from making the playoffs before he got there, all the Blazers did was trade him out for Rasheed...and they turned to one of the worst teams in the NBA when he got there...



This guy plays with zero fire...and the trend that has followed him has been his team being one of the worst in the NBA after he gets there...even when it was a team that had made the playoffs 20 years in a row...

Here's a general rule...if a lottery team doesn't want the guy for some reason...he probably sucks.

[ManuTastic]

I'm not an expert on his career or game, but I don't buy that's he anything kryptonite. Mostly because I don't buy that about any good player. Hell, David Robinson could have been labeled "title kryptonite" before Duncan came along, right?
How about this: when a good player (SAR) plays alongside a great player (Duncan), it's a good idea. But I don't think Pop would want to give up Manu or Tony to get him, and I doubt he'd play for the MLE, so it's pretty idle speculation at this point.

[whottt]

Prove this guy can help a team win.

Prove it.

Just show me a shred of evidence to indicate any team has been made better by his presence being added to it...

Just show me something..

At the very least he's the unluckiest motherfucker in NBA history...

And don't even try to use the Drob argument...if you took Drob off some of the Spurs teams he failed to win titles with and replaced him with SAR, they'd have negative wins.

Suck factor is a very real factor...and anyone that has true feel for the game knows it is a very real thing.


It's not that hard to make the playoffs in the NBA.

[Mr. Body]

I disagree, too, with the kryptonite thing. He may look lackluster at times because he's played for a long series of lackluster teams. Truly awful teams. Sure, there's the sense, Why were the teams so bad, if he was on them? But he's not a number 1 player, maybe not even a number 2 guy. He's certainly overpriced, but at a certain amount of scratch, he could help somebody.

That said, I don't think it's the Spurs.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I am not sure why most here 'hate' the guy but from what I have seen he is a pretty good player. Now I am not ready to say he can carry a team to a championship but he could add to the Spurs a bona fide scorer. This would obviously create a log jam of big men but to think of Tim (playing center) and Reef playing the 4 is salivating. Shareef is an athletic big with skills so if he wanted to some to San Antonio I would be all for it. Obviously the roster would have to be tweaked but in this scenario the Spurs would have an extra center ,if you will, with rasho and Nazr..anyone wonder what a starting center with a reasonable contarct would be worth on the trade market? Let's face it the Spurs have been a team that will cut ties with fan favorites if they think another player will help them. Would anyone be willing to replace Shareef for Scola? I would.

[whottt]

He's played on teams with other All Stars on them before...he's played on teams that have other guys that are key components to title contenders this season...he's played on teams that have a legitimate 1 guy before(legitimate to the tune of making it to the conference finals)

The only common denominator between all the crappy teams he has played has been him...

He's a zero on the W-L scale...I don't care how many PPG and Rebounds he gets.

Case in point...

When he got traded to Portland all he did was whine about the way he was used...

If I was a big a loser as this motherfucker has been...I'd have been doing whatever my team wanted me to do...especially if it was a team that had made the playoffs 20 something years in a row.

[Obstructed_View]

The guy has gotten a lot of money to play for some truly dismal teams. If you don't think the Grizzlies, Hawks and Blazers were train-wrecks and instead see fit to dump the failures of all three franchises on Shareef then good luck with that.

It's entirely possible he's ready to play for peanuts for a year or more with a good team, just to wash the loser off him. The Spurs don't need him, so if that's his plan he'll have to look elsewhere. I'm sure Mark Cuban will be happy to pick him up.

[ChumpDumper]

"Whispers" at this point are completely meaningless. Barring a playoff meltdown, the Spurs' plate seems pretty full -- the Spurs might not even keep their pick at this point. Nice to know SA is a little higher on the FA rumor radar, though.

[whottt]

Good I hope Cuban does pick him up...I'd celebrate the Mavs crash and burn.

He doesn't improve teams, he doesn't help them win.

Show me evidence that he does...you don't have to show me playoffs...just show me a team improve after he gets there...if he can help a team win you should be able to find some evidence of it.

[George Gervin's Afro]

He's played on teams with other All Stars on them before...he's played on teams that have other guys that are key components to title contenders this season...he's played on teams that have a legitimate 1 guy before(legitimate to the tune of making it to the conference finals)

The only common denominator between all the crappy teams he has played has been him...

He's a zero on the W-L scale...I don't care how many PPG and Rebounds he gets.

Case in point...

When he got traded to Portland all he did was whine about the way he was used...

If I was a big a loser as this motherfucker has been...I'd have been doing whatever my team wanted me to do...especially if it was a team that had made the playoffs 20 something years in a row.




Whott are you stupid? I am trying to follow you using your 'analytical' thought process about rahim..the dude has played for vancouver, atlanta, and portland...how can you call him a loser? he has played for losers but does not make him one himself. One example to prove my point.. Corey Dillon played for the bengals for 8 years and according to your argument he is a loser..now that he jumped on the patriot bandwagon he is a winner..same player different team..comprende?

[whottt]

I predict Ice Cold Brewski will show up in this thread with a post jocking SAR...

And he'll have fantasy experts galore backing him up...because that's the only value he has.

I'd take him on my fantasy team...keep him the fuck away from my real team though.

[whottt]

Whott are you stupid? I am trying to follow you using your 'analytical' thought process about rahim..the dude has played for vancouver, atlanta, and portland...how can you call him a loser? he has played for losers but does not make him one himself. One example to prove my point.. Corey Dillon played for the bengals for 8 years and according to your argument he is a loser..now that he jumped on the patriot bandwagon he is a winner..same player different team..comprende?


Are you fucking stupid? Show me him making a team better...if these teams were so shitty before he got there he ought to have made a positive impact on them...even without the playoffs.

Show it to me.

Stupid is thinking that just because averages 20 PPG he can help a team win.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Are you fucking stupid? Show me him making a team better...if these teams were so shitty before he got there he ought to have made a positive impact on them...even without the playoffs.

Show it to me.

Stupid is thinking that just because averages 20 PPG he can help a team win.



so now you are changing your argument to say he does not make teams better. well his scoring alone makes these teams better whott. how's that for evidence? another example jason terry.. he was a loser and now he is a winner. he is scoring less with dallas so that ,acoording to you , makes him not contributing to the team.. now what whott? why don't you give us one example of 'positive impact'? at the gate? with the public? nice to see you backing away from your original statement but you cannot keep changing your argument..and for the record i have been called stupid a few times in my life..

[Obstructed_View]

He's played on teams with other All Stars on them before...
Vancouver - 0
Atlanta - 0
Portland - 0


he's played on teams that have other guys that are key components to title contenders this season...
Like Glenn Robinson and Jason Terry, who are support players for Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki? So he would be a sucky support player because he played with other support players?


I don't care how many PPG and Rebounds he gets.
Kind of difficult to have a discussion if you ask for "proof" like you always do and then don't want to hear about statistics. Do you need a sworn statement from his mother?

[whottt]

Vancouver - 0
Atlanta - 0
Portland - 0

Glenn Robinson
Nick Van Exel
Theo Ratliff

There are probably a couple of others I failed to mention....

If you are gonna talk shit then back it up.



Like Glenn Robinson and Jason Terry, who are support players for Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki? So he would be a sucky support player because he played with other support players?

Glenn Robinson was the key inside presence for a conference finalist that fell 1 game short of the NBA finals.

Terry proved he doesn't suck when he got traded to the Mavs and helped them...

SAR got traded to the Blazers 50 win Blazers and they redefined suck and missed the playoffs for the first time in like 22 years...and they sucked exponentially worse when he was there for a full season.





Kind of difficult to have a discussion if you ask for "proof" like you always do and then don't want to hear about statistics. Do you need a sworn statement from his mother?

I need you to show me a team performing better after the aquisition of SAR than they did before...

This motherfucker has played on team that won 8 freaking games for the entire season...


The Blazers were a 50 win team before he got there...they went to 500% last year and this year they are godawful.

There is exactly one time a team has traded for him and improved it's record. There is not a single time he has been traded and the team that traded him has had a worse record.

[whottt]

so now you are changing your argument to say he does not make teams better. well his scoring alone makes these teams better whott. how's that for evidence?

That's no evidence...how is that evidence.


another example jason terry.. he was a loser and now he is a winner. he is scoring less with dallas so that ,acoording to you , makes him not contributing to the team.. now what whott?

He hasn't been a loser every where he has gone now has he?



why don't you give us one example of 'positive impact'? at the gate? with the public?

W-L


nice to see you backing away from your original statement but you cannot keep changing your argument..and for the record i have been called stupid a few times in my life..


My contention that he has a high suck factor is not provable, my contention that he doesn't help teams win is.

[Obstructed_View]

Glenn Robinson
Nick Van Exel
Theo Ratliff

There are probably a couple of others I failed to mention....

If you are gonna talk shit then back it up.
First of all, fuck you. I'm not "talking shit" so stop being an immature little douchebag. We're discussing sports, don't take it personally and don't puff up your chest on a message board. If you'd like it to degenerate into name calling, I'll be happy to add you to my ignore list but frankly I enjoy doing this if you don't make it personal.

Now that we've got that out of the way, none of the guys you mentioned were all-stars when SAR played with them. I thought that was the question, so I looked it up. None of those guys are superstars, and they certainly aren't perennial all-stars.


Glenn Robinson was the key inside presence for a conference finalist that fell 1 game short of the NBA finals.
With Gary Payton and Ray Allen. Not sure how this supports your argument.


Terry proved he doesn't suck when he got traded to the Mavs and helped them... With Dirk Nowitzki and a rather talented roster. Again, not sure that this lends any credibility to the argument.


SAR got traded to the Blazers 50 win Blazers and they redefined suck and missed the playoffs for the first time in like 22 years...and they sucked exponentially worse when he was there for a full season. Rasheed Wallace won a ring for the team he went to, and the Blazers were a train wreck. Rahim was part of the trade because he was overpaid and the salaries matched. That's his doing, but it doesn't support the argument.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so he might be bad for team chemistry, but the guy deserves benefit of the doubt. I'd be interested in seeing him go to a non dysfunctional organization.

[whottt]

First of all, fuck you. I'm not "talking shit" so stop being an immature little douchebag. We're discussing sports, don't take it personally and don't puff up your chest on a message board. If you'd like it to degenerate into name calling, I'll be happy to add you to my ignore list but frankly I enjoy doing this if you don't make it personal.

I apologize...I got you and Razman confused.


I think you need to take a look at just which board you are on...this is the bastard child of Spurs boards that can't even be mentioned on certain other boards...

It's membership consists of passionate and volatile fans who often got into arguments too heated for other boards...

I'd say a good 50% of the regular posters at this board are banned from othet boards...and that includes the two people that own it.

Do you what you want as far the ignore list goes, that's what it's there for.




Now that we've got that out of the way, none of the guys you mentioned were all-stars when SAR played with them. I thought that was the question, so I looked it up. None of those guys are superstars, and they certainly aren't perennial all-stars.

Well I'd say the fact that SAR makes any team he goes to suck, pretty much gurantees no one is gonna make the AS game with him as a teamate.



With Gary Payton and Ray Allen. Not sure how this supports your argument.

Cassell and Allen...and Robinson was the guy that got them open...and he's also the guy that owned us for about 7 years.


With Dirk Nowitzki and a rather talented roster. Again, not sure that this lends any credibility to the argument.

Portland had a talented roster...with or without Sheed. And like every other team...they are gonna get better after they dump him this summer...




Rasheed Wallace won a ring for the team he went to, and the Blazers were a train wreck. Rahim was part of the trade because he was overpaid and the salaries matched. That's his doing, but it doesn't support the argument.


Whatever...the team declined with him there...it declined even more when he was there for a full season.

Decline, decline, decline. That's what teams that aquire him do. And there is no shortage of evidence to prove that.



Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so he might be bad for team chemistry, but the guy deserves benefit of the doubt. I'd be interested in seeing him go to a non dysfunctional organization.

Absence of winning is evidence...on the one hand you say these organizations sucked before he got there...but then you give him a free pass on them sucking worse after he gets there...If this guy could have any positive impact you would have seen it on those bottom feeders...but you see just the opposite and you see those teams actually improving or maintaining after he leaves

The guy doesn't stem the tide of losing, he doesn't do anything..he just puts up meaningless numbers.

Anyone can put up numbers on a bad team. Someone has to do it...I've never heard of a team going scoreless for a season, have you?

[violentkitten]

all of you are full of shit

[Useruser666]

Welcome to the Whottt against the world thread of the day.

[Dre_7]

Welcome to the Whottt against the world thread of the day.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

This is ridiculous, whottt -- when stats back up your argument, they prove everything. When stats go against your position, they are completely meaningless.

You seem to be the only person who would argue that the Grizzlies of the late 90's, the Hawks of the early 00's, and even the recent vintage Blazers had "some pretty good talent," and that the failure of those teams to reach the NBA playoffs can be thrown almost exclusively at the feet of one Shareef Abdur-Rahim. I'm amazed.

Since your selective use of statistics allows you to drown out those who disagree with you, here's this: the facts don't support your premise.

Remarkably, in light of your contentions, the 2000-01 Hawks (the year before they acquired Rahim) won 25 games. The 2001-02 Hawks (the first year Rahim was in Atlanta -- and with Rahim as the only significant addition) won 33 games. And the 2002-03 Hawks actually won 35 games. I may be short-sighted, but that would seem to be an improvement.

In fact, the same could be said, in a general sense, of the Grizzlies, who improved their record almost every year that Rahim was there. Rahim was selected in the 1996 Draft. In 1995-96, the Grizzlies went 15-67. They lost one more game in Rahim's rookie year, 1996-97, going 14-68. But in 1997-98, they improved to 19-63. After a horrendous 1999 season (8-42), they improved to 22-60 in 1999-2000, and improved again to 23-59 in 2000-01. I realize that the records rolled up by those Grizzlies teams aren't stellar, but they certainly got better while Rahim was there.

Those teams, despite their stellar talent, didn't make the playoffs, but they did, contrary to your suggestion, improve in the W column.

I'm also aghast that to "prove" your position, you argue that those teams had all-star players, but neglect to mention that those guys were all-stars long before they crossed paths with Rahim. Van Exel played in one all-star game in 1998, in a year where every Laker but Rick Fox made the freakin' all-star team. He didn't play with Rahim until this season, some 7 seasons since his lone all-star appearance, and at that, Van Exel played in only 53 games while teamed with Rahim.

Glenn Robinson wasn't ever an "inside presence" in Milwaukee, even when he played with Cassell and Allen -- that team eerily resembled this year's Sonics, stocked with great shooters, but lacking any real inside presence. At that Glenn Robinson, who I certainly hope proves to be a solid role player for the Spurs, played one season with Rahim in Atlanta (and only 69 games of that season) -- that team actually showed improvement. Ratliff is like Van Exel, a one-time All-Star who had a great first half for a Philadelphia team that scorched the East in early 2000-01. After he got hurt, Ratliff was such a force that the Sixers traded him to Atlanta to get Dikembe Mutombo, which to me clearly suggests that the Sixers felt that Ratliff wasn't good enough to make them a strong title contender.

And you cannot be serious about Jason Terry being a vital cog to the successes of the Dallas Mavericks. Jason Terry has had a nice year, but he's a reduced form of Derek Fisher on that team. I can't imagine that anyone would think that Derek Fisher would be expected to the be the kind of talent that would put a team over the top, so I don't understand why Jason Terry could be thrown into such a category.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

not to get off topic but why did Kori and Timvp get banned from the boards?

[whottt]

This one isn't a whottt VS the World...there are other people that realize that an impentrable cloud of losing follows this mofo around...and even if you can't blame him for his teams sucking you can certainly see that he has never improved any of them. He doesn't improve teams.

Vancouver
1995-96: an expansion team. 15 wins.
1996-97: Draft SAR. 14 wins! A decline of 1 win from their expansion year.

Impact of adding SAR: -1 win

1997-98: 19 wins. I guess if you are desparate you could claim he helped. But the addition of former ALL Star Otis Thorpe probably had more to do with it.

1998-99: 8 wins. Yes it was a shortened season, but in a full season that equals 13 wins.
1999-00: 22 Wins! Ole SAR must have really stepped up his game that season.
2000-01: 23 Wins! SAR was pushing himself to new heights of winning!
2001-02: The Grizz take a huge gamble on their playoff hopes and trade SAR. 23 wins.

Impact of SAR leaving: 0

Atlanta
2000-01:NO SAR. 25 wins.
2001-02: Add SAR. 33 wins. This is the one bit of evidence SAR has that he might have improved a team. But there are plenty of other reasons you could argue spawned that incredible turnaround.

Impact of adding SAR: 8 wins

2002-03: 35 wins Add an All Star in Glenn Robinson and another from bad health in Ratliff.

2003-2004:28 wins. The Hawks manage to part with the heart and soul of their best seasons...SAR traded at midseason. But they also lost Robinson, Kukoc, Ratliff etc.

(arguable)Impact of SAR leaving: -7 wins.

Portland
2002-03: 50 wins.
2003-04: Add "burns to win" SAR at midseason. 41 wins.

Impact of adding SAR: -9 wins

2004-05:27-55.

Add it all up and you see that SAR's teams have averaged about 25 wins per season, and the impact of adding him to teams, regardless of talent level or finish the previous season, has been 2 additional losses.

[MannyIsGod]

I want Rahim on this team about as much as I want to see Cheryl Miller naked. Not At All.

[FromWayDowntown]

You're kidding me with that Otis Thorpe thing, right?

That's like saying that the big reason the Spurs finished with 60 wins in 2002-03 was the addition of former All-Star Kevin Willis. It's like saying that the Heat's record is better this year because of the addition of former All-Star Christian Laettner. That a guy is a former All-Star at some point in his distant past is not indicative of his role in a team's improvement. Come on.

And you do realize that between 2002-03 and 2003-04, the Blazers added Rahim, but also subtracted guys like Rasheed Wallace and Bonzi Wells, and dealt with the immaturish behavior and injury-magnet tendencies of guys like Damon Stoudemire and Derek Anderson. Put any pretty good player on a team with another pretty good player/borderline all-star who happens to play the same position and replace their wings and guards with CBA types and I doubt that team will find much success. That team would look a whole lot like the Hawks did early this season, even with former All-Star Antoine Walker.

(by the way, I'm not advocating for the Spurs to bring in Rahim. I don't really see that as a favorable move -- I just don't really understand the hate for the guy. It's like saying Ernie Banks wasn't a very good baseball player because the Cubs never reached the postseason during his career.)

[whottt]

This is ridiculous, whottt -- when stats back up your argument, they prove everything. When stats go against your position, they are completely meaningless.

Depends on the stats...but I always place regular season W-L high on my priorities when combining them with statistical data. I always look at the impact a player has on a team's W-L record and it will trump the stats depending on that players role on the team. I never go entirely by stats. I never go entirely by anything. You think of every argument you have ever had with me and it's always been backed up by overall team performance.

When talking role players I defintely don't go by stats that much...

And it just depends on the stats...it really does...you'll never see me basing something on PPG and rebounds alone. Ever.

You know why I don't ever go by any one rule entirely?

Because it can do things like lead you thinking SAR helps teams win...or that he doesn't suck.

It can lead you to thinking Chris Webber can help you win a title.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics...you know? W-L over 82 games is a pretty good lie detector.


You seem to be the only person who would argue that the Grizzlies of the late 90's, the Hawks of the early 00's, and even the recent vintage Blazers had "some pretty good talent," and that the failure of those teams to reach the NBA playoffs can be thrown almost exclusively at the feet of one Shareef Abdur-Rahim. I'm amazed.

They did have good talent, have you looked at it? Especially when it's combined with a guy with his numbers. And on every team he has been on he's had at least one teamate that was an All Star at some point(usually in the seasons his teams made improvement). I am certain I didn't name every AS he has played with.





Since your selective use of statistics allows you to drown out those who disagree with you, here's this: the facts don't support your premise.

Over all they do. Yes they do.


Remarkably, in light of your contentions, the 2000-01 Hawks (the year before they acquired Rahim) won 25 games. The 2001-02 Hawks (the first year Rahim was in Atlanta -- and with Rahim as the only significant addition) won 33 games.

That's not enrtirely true...Kukoc was added late in the season the previous year.

But I acknowledged that season earlier on my own.


And the 2002-03 Hawks actually won 35 games. I may be short-sighted, but that would seem to be an improvement.

You are short sighted if you think SAR had more to do with that than the arrival of Glenn Robinson and the return to health of Ratliff....See Portland and the Grizz.


In fact, the same could be said, in a general sense, of the Grizzlies, who improved their record almost every year that Rahim was there. Rahim was selected in the 1996 Draft. In 1995-96, the Grizzlies went 15-67. They lost one more game in Rahim's rookie year, 1996-97, going 14-68.

Yeah? And how is that fact not supporting my argument?


But in 1997-98, they improved to 19-63. After a horrendous 1999 season (8-42),

A horrendous season that backs up my point. Nice of you to just minimize that one...when it's a seminal point.



they improved to 22-60 in 1999-2000, and improved again to 23-59 in 2000-01. I realize that the records rolled up by those Grizzlies teams aren't stellar, but they certainly got better while Rahim was there. [/quote[

Wrong...what happened when they lost him? Nothing, they won the exact same amount of games...and this guy was akin to their franchise player.

[quote]Those teams, despite their stellar talent, didn't make the playoffs, but they did, contrary to your suggestion, improve in the W column.

Not really. In some cases there was drop off and I think the fact that the Gizz won as many games the year they lost him proves how little impact he had.


'm also aghast that to "prove" your position, you argue that those teams had all-star players, but neglect to mention that those guys were all-stars long before they crossed paths with Rahim.

Van Exel played in one all-star game in 1998, in a year where every Laker but Rick Fox made the freakin' all-star team. He didn't play with Rahim until this season, some 7 seasons since his lone all-star appearance, and at that, Van Exel played in only 53 games while teamed with Rahim.

That's classic FWDT...Robinson and Ratliff were All Stars like a year before they played with him....and you mention the one guy that was one quite a few years before and act like that is the rule....

And NVE still had the ability to make an impact...ask the Mavs.


Glenn Robinson wasn't ever an "inside presence" in Milwaukee, even when he played with Cassell and Allen -- that team eerily resembled this year's Sonics, stocked with great shooters, but lacking any real inside presence.

Well you are wrong about that...Robinson was most certainly an inside scoring presence, with the ability to get his own shot off in the paint, post up, or do a variety of things, and he still is, and who drew double teams...he's not a defensive presence...and I never claimed he was. Robinson was a PowerForward in college by the way.



At that Glenn Robinson, who I certainly hope proves to be a solid role player for the Spurs, played one season with Rahim in Atlanta (and only 69 games of that season) -- that team actually showed improvement. Ratliff is like Van Exel, a one-time All-Star who had a great first half for a Philadelphia team that scorched the East in early 2000-01. After he got hurt, Ratliff was such a force that the Sixers traded him to Atlanta to get Dikembe Mutombo, which to me clearly suggests that the Sixers felt that Ratliff wasn't good enough to make them a strong title contender.

Actually...IIRC Ratliff was voted the starting C in the All Star game, had made all defensive teams previously, and he lead the NBA in blocked shots last season.

They had a choice of him or Mutombo at a time they had the best record in the East and were on a collision course with Shaq...and I think Ratliff was already battling some kind of injury when they made the trade, that got worse after they made it...

They had the runaway best record in the East at that point(with Ratliff I might add) and had a choice to upgade their gimpy young C with a 4 time defensive POY...who doesn't do that trade?



And you cannot be serious about Jason Terry being a vital cog to the successes of the Dallas Mavericks. Jason Terry has had a nice year, but he's a reduced form of Derek Fisher on that team. I can't imagine that anyone would think that Derek Fisher would be expected to the be the kind of talent that would put a team over the top, so I don't understand why Jason Terry could be thrown into such a category.

I am not gonna argue real hard that Jason Terry is a great player, or Fish, only that they have had more success as role players than SAR has had doing anything.

[Spurminator]

former ALL Star Otis Thorpe

Sorry, that shit is funny.

You may continue.

[Obstructed_View]

I agree that the guy has a high probablity of suck factor due to his track record, but that's about it. Time and his decisions will determine whether or not it's true.

[whottt]

You're kidding me with that Otis Thorpe thing, right?

No I'm not...True, Otis lone All Star appearance was about 5 years prior, but he had a pretty good season and made them much more tougher inside...notice what happened when they subtracted him...the Grizz win total sharply declined(even projecting it to 82 games)...and it didn't have much room to get lower.


That's like saying that the big reason the Spurs finished with 60 wins in 2002-03 was the addition of former All-Star Kevin Willis.

I think Willis was a reason we won 60 wins that year...I think he was big reason we beat that Lakers that year.

I don't think he deserves most of the credit, but he definitely deserves some...but you have forgotten a lot from that season...specifically game 6 agains the Lakers.


It's like saying that the Heat's record is better this year because of the addition of former All-Star Christian Laettner. That a guy is a former All-Star at some point in his distant past is not indicative of his role in a team's improvement. Come on.

Laettner does help.

NVE was still an impact player...do you not remember what he did for the Mavs?

And Robinson and Ratliff were like All Stars the year before he played with them.


And you do realize that between 2002-03 and 2003-04, the Blazers added Rahim, but also subtracted guys like Rasheed Wallace and Bonzi Wells, and dealt with the immaturish behavior and injury-magnet tendencies of guys like Damon Stoudemire and Derek Anderson.

Yeah..and from the looks of things that was a stupid thing for the Blazers to do wasn't it? What does that tell you about how bad this guy sucks?


Put any pretty good player on a team with another pretty good player/borderline all-star who happens to play the same position and replace their wings and guards with CBA types and I doubt that team will find much success.

SAR was Sheeds replacement...and he puts up better numbers...and the Blazers were loaded with guard talent. Still are.



That team would look a whole lot like the Hawks did early this season, even with former All-Star Antoine Walker.

Yeah...look real closely where you are headed...you are about to start defending Antoine Walker..the only player(along with Olo) close to SAR in suck factor.



(by the way, I'm not advocating for the Spurs to bring in Rahim. I don't really see that as a favorable move -- I just don't really understand the hate for the guy. It's like saying Ernie Banks wasn't a very good baseball player because the Cubs never reached the postseason during his career.)

I am glad you aren't, but I am concerned you are on the verge of defending Antione Walker.


53% of the teams weren't guranteed to make the playoffs every year of Banks career. Look it up...if they could have, he would have.

[George Gervin's Afro]

whott i do not need to call you names to make you look like an idiot. come to think of it you do a fine job all by yourself when it comes to that. i will start calling you whott "the caveat" poster. where one day 50% shows you are a great shooter and the next day you can make only 1/2 of your shots so you suck.. I will be here for while whott woman..

[whottt]

i will start calling you whott "the caveat" poster. where one day 50% shows you are a great shooter and the next day you can make only 1/2 of your shots so you suck

Idiot...50% means something sometimes and others it doesn't. It doesn't mean everything....especially when it's never been to the playoffs.

It having never been to the playoffs in it's entire career, including when it got traded to a team with a 20 year playoff streak, and in fact has usually lead to a decline in wins, means more than any other stat you can give me at this juncture...

What makes you an idiot is that you think I just have general hate on for guys that can, at times, score 20ppg, shoot 50%, and pull down 8 boards a game, while making 6 passes per game on top of it...

Those are pretty numbers...the fact that they have never lead to post season on teams with surrounding talent in guys like Ratliff, Robinson, Van Exel, Stoudamire, Bibby...etc...should tell you that something is fucked up with this guy. Seriously fucked up. Those numbers lie through their fucking teeth.

[Useruser666]

This is all I can gather from this thread.

Shareef has been on shitty teams his entire career.

Shareef has put up better than average numbers during his career.

Shareef's teams have had their records improve, overall, after him joining the team.

Shareef has never played in a playoff game.


I think those are pretty factual statements. If anyone would like to infer that Shareef causes bad luck for the team he plays for then go ahead.

[whottt]

Shareef's teams have had their records improve, overall, after him joining the team.

Wrong...you gathered incorrectly...be glad we are no longer cavemen or SW would starve.





I think those are pretty factual statements. If anyone would like to infer that Shareef causes bad luck for the team he plays for then go ahead.

The truth is there for those that want to see it...he hasn't improved his teams. He didn't even improve a team from it's W-L that it had in it's expansion year.

[MadDog73]

in any case, he's not going to be a Spur, so what's all the fuss about?

File it under "Moot"

[ducks]

how many guys actually make other guys better around them
duncan,kidd who else?

[whottt]

How many guys have been in the NBA 9 years and never made the playoffs? In an era when over half of the teams get playoff berths every season?

How many guys have been traded to teams that won 50 games the year before and hadn't missed the playoffs in 21 seasons, and failed to make the playoffs?

[bigbendbruisebrother]

how many guys actually make other guys better around them
duncan,kidd who else?

RASHO!!!

[ducks]

How many guys have been in the NBA 9 years and never made the playoffs? In an era when over half of the teams get playoff berths every season?

How many guys have been traded to teams that won 50 games the year before and hadn't missed the playoffs in 21 seasons, and failed to make the playoffs?


james is getting there :lol

[MadDog73]

how many guys actually make other guys better around them
duncan,kidd who else?

You can argue Steve Nash and Shaq for sure.

Hell, I'd say Manu does, just with his energy.

Lots of good players improve those around them... and some, like Kobe, actually suck energy away from others :lol

[Supreme Allah]

Pull the trigger POP!!! Make it happen. Shareef = Chmpionship every year until he retires!!!!!!! The power of the arm leg leg arm head will be with the Spurs!!!!

Him and Nazr in the frontcourt?!? Unbeatable!!

Praise Allah!

[Rick Von Braun]

how many guys actually make other guys better around them
duncan,kidd who else? This is the complete list of players that make other teammates better around them. This is defined as players that increase the average +/- points on all their teammates when the teammates play with him. I will limit the list to all the players with significant minutes (at least 1000 minutes) and positive contributions. The list is sorted by raw +/- numbers.

Name - Team (raw+/- Net48+/-)

T. Duncan - Spurs (+694 +15.1)
E. Ginobili - Spurs (+672 +14.7)
S. Nash - Suns (+662 +12.4)
S. Marion - Suns (+660 +10.1)
D. Nowitzki - Mavericks (+585 +9.3)
E. Jones - Heat (+493 +8.4)
T. Prince - Pistons (+434 +6.9)
R. Hamilton - Pistons (+425 +7.0)
R. Wallace - Pistons (+372 +6.6)
S. Battier - Grizzles (+332 +6.3)
R. Lewis - Sonics (+327 +5.8)
J. Barry - Rockets (+296 +11.6)
R. Radmanovic - Sonics (+287 +7.4)
R. Allen - Sonics (+273 +4.3)
P. Pierce - Celtics (+207 +3.7)
E. Brand - Clippers (+181 +2.9)
L. James - Cavaliers (+160 +2.3)
S. Jackson - Pacers (+145 +3.9)
J. Collins - Nets (+134 +2.6)
Z. Ilgauskas - Cavaliers (+132 +2.4)
G. Arenas - Wizards (+92 +1.3)
B. Cook - Lakers (+78 +3.5)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It cracks me up how grabbing a long, athletic forward who can average 20 and 10 is a mistake.

Christ, this franchise was built on reclamation projects. The guy can already ball on offense, teach him how to play defense and you're set.

It's very hypocritical IMO that the same people who worship reclamation/project players of ours like Malik, Buckets, Glenn Robinson, etc. can so blindly say this guy would suck in the silver and black.

You can't teach height and athleticism, which he has. And as a complimentary player, he would excel after we taught him how to really play D. If he wants to come you have to make room, but I suspect someone will give him a sweeter deal.

[whottt]

It cracks me up how grabbing a long, athletic forward who can average 20 and 10 is a mistake.

Ask the Grizz, Hawks and Blazers.


Come to think of it...ask the Lakers.


Christ, this franchise was built on reclamation projects. The guy can already ball on offense, teach him how to play defense and you're set.

Box score jockey.


It's very hypocritical IMO that the same people who worship reclamation/project players of ours like Malik, Buckets, Glenn Robinson, etc. can so blindly say this guy would suck in the silver and black.

Nothing hypocritical about it.

Malik and Jax were essentially rookies.....Not 10 year vets. Nothing needed to be reclaimed with Big Dogg except his reputation...he's a proven winner(except when he played with SAR).

Jax is living proof that stats aren't everything...Statistically Hedo was a better player...who do you take?


You can't teach height and athleticism, which he has.

They don't give you a trophy for that.


And as a complimentary player, he would excel after we taught him how to really play D. If he wants to come you have to make room, but I suspect someone will give him a sweeter deal.

Um your last project just lost a game for us on the last play...note I said lose...I didn't say he failed to get 10 boards...I said lost...lose...as in not win. Due to fucking up.

Go ahead and excuse it....but just remember that excuses don't win playoff games or titles.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Last project? Yeah, Malik's never had anyone score on him at the end of a game. Or Tim, or Tony, or Manu, or...

But hey, Malik is going to the Hall of Fame, why am I even questioning it?

[whottt]

Oh they didn't score on Nazr...they scored on open space.

[texasqb2]

I cant believe what I have read in this thread. You guys actually dont want SAR if we can get him cheap?-What in the world??? Are we talking about the same guy who's career avg is 20 PPG and 8 RPG? Granted he may not be in his prime (he is only 28 but he has had some injuries), but the guy still averaged 17 point and 7 boards a game while shooting over 50%!

[Useruser666]

Wrong...you gathered incorrectly...be glad we are no longer cavemen or SW would starve.





The truth is there for those that want to see it...he hasn't improved his teams. He didn't even improve a team from it's W-L that it had in it's expansion year.

Whottt, try reading the whole sentence next time. OVERALL the team Shareef has joined, had an improved record. I didn't say everytime, all the time, or that the team he joined didn't lose more games during his first year.

[MadDog73]

I cant believe what I have read in this thread. You guys actually dont want SAR if we can get him cheap?-What in the world??? Are we talking about the same guy who's career avg is 20 PPG and 8 RPG? Granted he may not be in his prime (he is only 28 but he has had some injuries), but the guy still averaged 17 point and 7 boards a game while shooting over 50%!

I can't believe we are still discussing this since most agree this will never happen.

But I can see whottt's point - you CANNOT judge a player by numbers alone.

First, why is SAR's ppg so large? Wasn't he on teams with not many scorers? If he's a career 50% FG maker, where is he taking these shots? Will he just get in the way of our bigs?

I'm not saying not to take him, I'm just saying you can't automatically assume a player will help your team just because he had high numbers on another team. You have to look at how he got those numbers, and how he will fit in to your system.

[whottt]

It's just not true though...his over all impact with the Grizz from the time was drafted was +8 wins...yet I question that..because the year after he left they won the same amount of games...that marginal 8 game improvement in Grizz his career over what they did in their expansion year could be explained a lot of ways..probably the least of which is SAR's impact, since they won the same amount of games without him!

Overall I guess you could give him credit for the +9 with the Hawks...But those were probably the most talented teams he played on....

Portland his impact has been -24 games...

So no...he hasn't imprvoved the teams he's been on unless you want to count the Hawks and ignore the contributions of guys like Kukoc, Ratliff and Robinson.

Overall he's had a negative impact of -10 wins to all his teams combined.

And it's funny because everyone acts like losing Rasheed jutifies the Blazers plunge...but SAR actually puts up better statistics than Rasheed and he doesn't get all the T's.....

So you can't use the loss of Rasheed as an excuse for the Blazers while at the same time citing SAR's stats as proof of him helping his teams win...
Statistically he was an upgrade over Rasheed....The Blazers don't lack talent anyway...it's not why they lose.

[CosmicCowboy]

I cant believe what I have read in this thread. You guys actually dont want SAR if we can get him cheap?-What in the world??? Are we talking about the same guy who's career avg is 20 PPG and 8 RPG? Granted he may not be in his prime (he is only 28 but he has had some injuries), but the guy still averaged 17 point and 7 boards a game while shooting over 50%!

:lmao

SAR will not be cheap enough for the Spurs to sign so this whole discussion is academic...the myth of players in their prime taking significantly less money than market value to "win a ring" is just that...a myth...

[waly.mg]

SA can´t offer to Shareef a Starter Spot, and i don´t think Shareef want come to SA to play from the bench

[Useruser666]

I know the topic is a moot point. But I think many have presented facts that Shareef has not hurt any of the teams he has played on in any way other than being a red herring. Maybe he is a black cat to the luck of teams he plays for, but there is no way to prove that.