The Death of Detroit

[DarrinS]

Take one of the wealthiest cities in the US, add 50 years of progressive policy makers and what do you get?


Detroit
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[DarrinS]

<crickets>

[clambake]

do you have anything that hasn't been posted before?

[George Gervin's Afro]

<crickets>

So are you claiming that local and state government economic policies are the primary driving force behind the success or failure of each state?

[Marcus Bryant]

If we're going to go with simplistic headline causes for the "Death of Detroit," did not the American consumer do it in? Enabled, of course, by "free trade."

[DarkReign]

Good thing he filmed that during the day time.

[DarkReign]

If we're going to go with simplistic headline causes for the "Death of Detroit," did not the American consumer do it in? Enabled, of course, by "free trade."

Shhhhh!

Protectionism causes wars, dont you know! Its also responsible for the Great Depression!

[spursncowboys]

Other casualties of liberalism- Oakland, Philidelphia, New York, DC, Baltimore, New Orleans, etc.

[Marcus Bryant]

Or, global warming climate change green clean tech whatever didn't do Detroit in, but competition did. Fine, blame the unions. But the other part of the political stew was what is today part of the "conservative" creed.

We've progressed from individual producers to mass producers to mass consumers to individual consumers as the focus of this nation, if you must evaluate government policies in purely economic terms.

And I'm not sure why Detroit's demise is necessarily looked at as a bad thing by conservatives, at least those wedded to the evaluation of what government governs best by which maximizes material progress, which is measured today in terms of consumption.

[DarrinS]

Good thing he filmed that during the day time.


No kidding. I've been to several engineering conferences there. Parts of that city look post-apocalyptic.

[spursncowboys]

Shhhhh!

Protectionism causes wars, dont you know! Its also responsible for the Great Depression!

"When goods don't cross borders, armies will." -Frederic Bastiat

[Marcus Bryant]

Not to mention that today's "conservatives" regard the Founding Fathers as a group of upper middle class Southern Baptists who created a framework for national and Christian greatness, instead of individual greatness.

[Marcus Bryant]

“Taxes must, in the end, fall upon the consumer.” - Bastiat

[DarrinS]

Not to mention that today's "conservatives" regard the Founding Fathers as a group of upper middle class Southern Baptists who created a framework for national and Christian greatness, instead of individual greatness.


Yeah, I'm sure our founding fathers were a bunch of secularists. :rolleyes

[spursncowboys]

Not to mention that today's "conservatives" regard the Founding Fathers as a group of upper middle class Southern Baptists who created a framework for national and Christian greatness, instead of individual greatness.

I don't think so. I personally don't believe they envisioned the bill of rights being used to completely erradicate christianity of any kind from government.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's time "conservatives" own up to the economic and social "change" wrought by the policies they advocate. Of course globalization is going to bring about disruptions in domestic life. Stop pretending they haven't.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, I'm sure our founding fathers were a bunch of secularists. :rolleyes

They weren't fundys, kiddo.

[spursncowboys]

If we're going to go with simplistic headline causes for the "Death of Detroit," did not the American consumer do it in? Enabled, of course, by "free trade."

Is it free trade or is it our brand of free trade?

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't think so. I personally don't believe they envisioned the bill of rights being used to completely erradicate christianity of any kind from government.

The Bill of Rights made clear that religious freedom was free from government interference. Why must Christianity be part of official state policy? Take a look at the UK if that whets your whistle. The Church is all but dead there.

[Marcus Bryant]

Is it free trade or is it our brand of free trade?

The brand where we outsource the manufacturing and the jobs, thereby displacing millions of Americans, all so we can consume more shit? Or, where what we get out of it is financing for our prodigious public and private consumption?

[DarrinS]

The Bill of Rights made clear that religious freedom was free from government interference. Why must Christianity be part of official state policy? Take a look at the UK if that whets your whistle. The Church is all but dead there.


Caution. Thread hijacking in progress.

[DarrinS]

The brand where we outsource the manufacturing and the jobs, thereby displacing millions of Americans, all so we can consume more shit? Or, where what we get out of it is financing for our prodigious public and private consumption?



Strangely enough, Honda and Toyota both make cars here and employ American workers.

[ElNono]

If the progressive policies were so bad for so long (50 years man!), how come conservatives didn't easily win elections there and turn it around? I mean, how bad can you really be?

[ElNono]

Strangely enough, Honda and Toyota both make cars here and employ American workers.

You mean assemble...

[spursncowboys]

The brand where we outsource the manufacturing and the jobs, thereby displacing millions of Americans, all so we can consume more shit? Or, where what we get out of it is financing for our prodigious public and private consumption?

What about all the jobs from having companies being able to export there. What about the lower prices with the lower cost of living from buy products that are made cheaper? In automobiles, what about the better products with higher quality for less? I can only imagine a scenario like in Russia where an automobile will last for only a year. Had we not been able to export the microchip- how different this world would be after only thirty years of technological advancements.

[Marcus Bryant]

Strangely enough, not as many Americans employed as before. Meanwhile, Indiana goes Democrat in a presidential campaign for the first time in four decades.

Figure it out.

[spursncowboys]

If the progressive policies were so bad for so long (50 years man!), how come conservatives didn't easily win elections there and turn it around? I mean, how bad can you really be?

Racism. Populism. Socialism is usually voted in the same way in every state, city and country.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Other casualties of liberalism- Oakland, Philidelphia, New York, DC, Baltimore, New Orleans, etc.

was it the local policies? state policies, ? which was it in these cases?

[Marcus Bryant]

What about all the jobs from having companies being able to export there. What about the lower prices with the lower cost of living from buy products that are made cheaper? In automobiles, what about the better products with higher quality for less? I can only imagine a scenario like in Russia where an automobile will last for only a year. Had we not been able to export the microchip- how different this world would be after only thirty years of technological advancements.

This is a race to the bottom for the lower middle class. So your cost of living is lower. So is your income. F YEAH.

Sure, it's a great scenario if you're a part of the upper middle class.

[DarrinS]

If the progressive policies were so bad for so long (50 years man!), how come conservatives didn't easily win elections there and turn it around? I mean, how bad can you really be?


Because they've been sold on the false idea that conservatives are racist redneck bible-thumpin teabaggers?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Because they've been sold on the false idea that conservatives are racist redneck bible-thumpin teabaggers?

or because conservatives believe everyone is out for themselves circumstances be damned.

[spursncowboys]

This is a race to the bottom for the lower middle class. So your cost of living is lower. So is your income. F YEAH.

Sure, it's a great scenario if you're a part of the upper middle class.

WHere is any evidence that someone would make more from a manufacturing job as opposed to a service job? You are talking about people like they are sheep.

[ElNono]

Racism. Populism. Socialism is usually voted in the same way in every state, city and country.

What do you mean? Illinois was voting Republican only 20 years ago:

1988:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/images/elections/maps/1988.jpg

[George Gervin's Afro]

WHere is any evidence that someone would make more from a manufacturing job as opposed to a service job? You are talking about people like they are sheep.


Racism. Populism. Socialism is usually voted in the same way in every state, city and country.


WHere is any evidence



You are talking about people like they are sheep

[ElNono]

Because they've been sold on the false idea that conservatives are racist redneck bible-thumpin teabaggers?

They voted Republican up until Bush senior... I guess they didn't think that then?

[DarrinS]

You mean assemble...


Uh, what's your point?

[ElNono]

Uh, what's your point?

My point is that we import all the pieces, and only assemble it here. Meaning, actual manufacturing is done somewhere else.

[Marcus Bryant]

WHere is any evidence that someone would make more from a manufacturing job as opposed to a service job? You are talking about people like they are sheep.

I'm not going to do your work for you, but when "service job" means McDonald's or a call center, it's not hard to figure out.

[spursncowboys]

What do you mean? Illinois was voting Republican only 20 years ago:

1988:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/images/elections/maps/1988.jpg

link? I think a voting by county map would be a little better.

[DarkReign]

I guess this video makes sense to someone who isnt from the area.

For those of us who are, its complete bullshit. Let me sum Detroit City Proper up for you in one sentence.

The money moved out in the 70s for economic and crime/educational reasons, what you have today is the fallout from that.

Businesses starting up in those times got more favorable tax incentives from the surrounding suburbs, so they started or moved to areas other than Detroit. Detroit thought itself untouchable and didnt care.

What that video doesnt tell you is that Oakland County, a mere 10 miles away, is the third richest county in the country. There is a reason for that, but dont let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[ElNono]

link? I think a voting by county map would be a little better.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/showelection.php?year=1988

From '68 to '88, Illinois voted Republican...

[DarrinS]

My point is that we import all the pieces, and only assemble it here. Meaning, actual manufacturing is done somewhere else.



Ever worked in a factory? Doesn't sound like you have.

[George Gervin's Afro]

link? I think a voting by county map would be a little better.

you mean certain counties vote for socialism, populism etc? And that is the reason for the state level failures?

[ElNono]

Ever worked in a factory? Doesn't sound like you have.

I have. Have you?

[DarrinS]

Businesses starting up in those times got more favorable tax incentives from the surrounding suburbs, so they started or moved to areas other than Detroit. Detroit thought itself untouchable and didnt care.


Tax incentives for business? What a horrible idea.

[DarrinS]

I have. Have you?


Yes. Assembled wire harnesses for GM and Ford. That job sucked ass.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Tax incentives for business? What a horrible idea.

so the economic policies helped? Which is it? Did they help or destroy?

[DarrinS]

so the economic policies helped? Which is it? Did they help or destroy?



Tax incentives for business is not a progressive policy.

[spursncowboys]

I'm not going to do your work for you, but when "service job" means McDonald's or a call center, it's not hard to figure out.

Or electrician. You don't back up any of your rants.

All you do is attack conservatives. This op was about Detroit being destroyed by liberalism.

[ElNono]

Yes. Assembled wire harnesses for GM and Ford. That job sucked ass.

It's a job, and it's better than no job.
But I really dislike when people claim that Toyota 'makes cars' in their plant in San Antonio. They do not. They merely assemble the parts made somewhere else, mostly Japan.
Would be real nice to have even more jobs here in the US making those parts also.

[ElNono]

Over the last 50 years, Illinois has voted 22 years for Republicans and 28 years for Democrats... But it's the Liberal policies that sinked it... :rolleyes

[George Gervin's Afro]

Tax incentives for business is not a progressive policy.

Who developed these economic policies in Oakland? Are you claining that dems do not support tax incentives?

[DarrinS]

It's a job, and it's better than no job.
But I really dislike when people claim that Toyota 'makes cars' in their plant in San Antonio. They do not. They merely assemble the parts made somewhere else, mostly Japan.
Would be real nice to have even more jobs here in the US making those parts also.


That's the same thing they do at Ford and GM. Do you think these people make every single item in the vehicle? There are lots of vendors that make car parts and many of them are not in the US. In fact, many are in Mexico. It's a lot cheaper for some reason.

[DarrinS]

Who developed these economic policies in Oakland? Are you claining that dems do not support tax incentives?


It's not one of their usual talking points.

[ElNono]

That's the same thing they do at Ford and GM. Do you think these people make every single item in the vehicle? There are lots of vendors that make car parts and many of them are not in the US. In fact, many are in Mexico. It's a lot cheaper for some reason.

I'm not saying Ford or GM are any different. In fact, I know they're not.
But the 'economic globalization' and the NAFTAs have as much to do with it as the 'progressive policies' you like to single out.

[EmptyMan]

If the progressive policies were so bad for so long (50 years man!), how come conservatives didn't easily win elections there and turn it around? I mean, how bad can you really be?

The people are dependent morons.

[ElNono]

The people are dependent morons.

Turn out that the 'morons' did vote Republican after all...

[DarkReign]

Who developed these economic policies in Oakland? Are you claining that dems do not support tax incentives?

If he is, he is clearly not speaking about 1970s SouthEastern Michigan. There were more Democrats than you could shake a stick at, in every city and metropolitan area (including Detroit).

Detroit thought itself invulnerable to the upstart communities like Warren, Livonia, Sterling Heights...downriver towns like Canton, Ypsilanti, Lincoln Park...and even nothern suburbs like Troy, Rochester and Novi.

They had a monopoly on this area's business forever, literally. They didnt see any reason to afford upstart businesses any incentive whatsoever to set up shop in Detroit. Even worse, the city was woefully corrupt. To get certain licenses to install, contracts, whatever always required payoffs of city officials and workers.

People tired of it and surrounding communities took advantage of Detroit's hubris by giving incentives.

Well, after some of these startup manufacturing businesses took off and started employing thousands, people started commuting out of Detroit for work. Obviously, the next step was to just move to where the jobs were.

Moreover, cheap gas and low cost of living in the "outskirts" created more disposable income for families. Sure, you werent city living anymore, but who cares! Youre fat, well paid, employed, happy and live in a larger home than you could imagine in the city, with land and great schools.

The pros far outweighed the cons. Once this small transition started, it rapidly turned into what we call the "Great White Flight". Yeah, racism sucks but the truth of the matter is this.

The only people left in Detroit were those who didnt want to leave for one reason or another. You have to remember this was a city that had the country's worst riot in 1968. Black people were not encouraged to move into the surrounding suburbs...ok, thats putting it lightly. They were actively told not to even try and if they did, theyd be harassed by their neighbors until they moved somewhere else.

So Detroit became a predominantly black city in less than 10 years. A people who have been repressed for generations. Generally speaking now, not in absolutes, this is a culture that has found itself being incarcerated at astronomical rates for decades. To not have access to the best jobs and education, there were clear lines in the city before The Flight of the black neighborhoods and the white neighborhoods, now there were only burrows leftover, not near the scale it used to be.

Large swaths of the city have homes for sale and no one to buy them, tax revenue for the city plummeted. Rightly or wrongly, racial tensions were already extremely high, but now that black people were the voting majority, politicians (like Coleman fucking Young) started baiting this prevelant attitude and started winning elections rather easily.

All they had to do was say, in more words, was "fuck whitey, this is our city now". It worked for a long time. But more and more businesses started leaving, more or more people became unemployed, so city officials expanded the government payroll in an effort to stem unemployment. Obvious problems abound with that plan (tell me how you plan to increase tax revenue by increasing government spending again? So, we the government, pay people their wage, pay the payroll taxes to ourselves and this somehow generates more revenue for us?! Maybe on paper, dipshit).

The decline for Detroit never stopped. Black loyalty has finally run its course (took awhile), now everyone with half a brain is leaving the city in droves...black ,white, Mexican, Polish, Arabic....race has absolutely no bearing on the further decline of Detroit anymore.

Its just a shithole run by corrupt city officials more interested in extracting what little is left out of it for themselves at the expense of their people, the state and federal government. The City Council is finally starting to listen to surrounding communities for advice and future projects...this was un-fucking-heard of for 3 decades.

Light rail systems, regional control of national convention centers like Cobo (a shithole in every regard), bringing in outside auditors to go over their finances.

Now, I make it sound like Detroit is all complicit with these measures, when in reality its more the Governor's office telling them "Do it or be taken over". The state will eventually take the city over...it has to. It cannot be left to the residents of Detroit to self govern because they have clearly demonstrated their inability to do so at every fucking opportunity for decades.

The first department in the State's sights is the Detroit Public School system. The absolute worst public school system in North America, bar none (yes, even Mexico I would imagine). Next will be the Zoning Office....at some point, the State will just take over wholesale.

That doesnt bode well for anyone because this state really fucking sucks. We are controlled by a Teacher's Union on the ecucation front and the UAW on the manufacturing front. Moreover, this country basically begs large manufacturers to outsource their jobs so every American can find a nice cozy cubicle in some serice field to settle into mediocrity for their fat, entertained existence...

Nevermind. I forget I am talking to people who do not produce anything. You provide services to people who pay for your service by providing service to someone else, etc. At no point do you sell anything you can put your hands on. You actually think this business model works all while watching the economy meltdown in front of your face and have the audacity to wonder "Why?".

[ElNono]

Nevermind. I forget I am talking to people who do not produce anything. You provide services to people who pay for your service by providing service to someone else, etc. At no point do you sell anything you can put your hands on. You actually think this business model works all while watching the economy meltdown in front of your face and have the audacity to wonder "Why?".

Well, duh, obviously it's primarily the progressive policies and socialism...

[DarkReign]

That's the same thing they do at Ford and GM. Do you think these people make every single item in the vehicle?

Far more of domestic cars are produced in the US than foreign automakers.

It isnt by much, but true nonetheless.


In fact, many are in Mexico. It's a lot cheaper for some reason.

Its cheaper because our government begs manufacturers to outsource. They dont say that per say, but their policy refelcts the corporate lobbyists greatest successes.

No country in the world operates without tariffing/taxing imported goods, save for those apart of a sphere of trade (NAFTA, EU, etc)...except one country. The United States.

Why? Because corporations buy and sell politicians on the daily and one of their many demands are unrestricted avenues of production. They want to be able to produce everything in the cheapest place in the world, child labor laws, environmental concerns, necessary regime changes, American workers be damned.

You, me and everyone else in this country sees no fucking benefit to things made elsewhere in the world. Sure, you may on this component or that widget, of course, there are always exceptions.

But really, how much less are your Nike shoes since theyre produced in sweat ships, hmmm? So instead of being $120 a pair, theyd have to be $400 a pair to produce here, right? Tommy Hilfiger, Hurley, what-the-fuck-ever...all just raping your country and the country theyre produced in, in the name of profit.

Textiles being imported in this country is the biggest ripoff of the American worker, bar none, moreso than automotive.

Same thing with automotive. The only reason things are cheaper to produce in places like Mexico is because our government doesnt tariff the company who moves operations there. Try buying an American car in Japan or China or Europe....

[DarkReign]

You know, Ive done this conversation before and I tire of it. It seems to be, IMO, that nearly all of you fucking dumbshit Americans are brainwashed, corporate stooges who seriously think this system of business is the best in the world and that anyone who questions it is a socialist.

Its much like smoking being banned on private property and local oppressive gun laws, none of this shit bothers you because it doesnt apply to you. You have videos like the one in the OP that completely ignore other, equal reasons in an effort to indoctrinate the trained American monkey to spew at first blush of disagreement.

This entire society has been reduced to parroting morons more inclined to worship and parody the death of their brethren than restrict their taskmasters. You are all incurably suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and it shows every time you speak. I dont much care whether this fact offends you or what political vibration you would like to assign my thinking to because clearly, your opinion means absolutely nothing to me.

I would just as soon watch 30% of the population veer their car into a bottomless ravine than listen to them breathe. You are all completely worthless pieces of matter floating around the airspace, sucking and consuming the very life that surrounds in an effort to appease an idealized authority with no eye for you or your family.

The bottom line, if there is any justice in the universe to be had at all, is that you are most assuredly next.

I am most often speechless in the face of everyday citizens actually defending corporate society as a virtue of the American system. Its a simple mechanism of manipulation with you nitwits.

Youre jealous. Extremely jealous of the rich. Instead of hating them or being neutral, you envy them. This envy distorts your view of their progression and importance.

Nike, Microsoft, General Motors, Phizer, etc are no more important to this country than you are...they just have all the money, which makes them more important to the government than you and all of us combined.

Until Americans come to this realization as a whole, we are doomed and this fact depresses me to no end because I am sure that I am right.

I sincerely hope everyone of you bastards, every...single...one, have a Merry fucking Christmas.

[Heath Ledger]

I'm headed to Detroit tonight. I sure hope it's warm.

[DarkReign]

I'm headed to Detroit tonight. I sure hope it's warm.

Har har.

[Heath Ledger]

LOL.

You mean it's not warm? Im not going then.

[DarkReign]

LOL.

You mean it's not warm? Im not going then.

Its actually a balmy 32º...a veritable heat wave at this time of year. Shit, in the sun, water doesnt even freeze!

[DarkReign]

Back to point, it is my only hope that we as a country will have the opportunity to air our differences and settle them quickly and permanently in my lifetime.

Sadly, I dont think this will happen. But I sure would enjoy such a time.

[Heath Ledger]

It's all hopeless, you might as well stock up on guns and ammo and food. The only thing changing shit is a civil uprising.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

It'd be interesting to see what the city would look like today if Archer had never been the Mayor.

[Supergirl]

If American car companies didn't make such shitty cars, Detroit would be Tokyo right now.

[DarrinS]

If American car companies didn't make such shitty cars, Detroit would be Tokyo right now.



Are you basing that on perception or hard data?

[admiralsnackbar]

Are you basing that on perception or hard data?

Are you actually so imperceptive as to need "hard data?"

[Marcus Bryant]

You know, Ive done this conversation before and I tire of it. It seems to be, IMO, that nearly all of you fucking dumbshit Americans are brainwashed, corporate stooges who seriously think this system of business is the best in the world and that anyone who questions it is a socialist.

Its much like smoking being banned on private property and local oppressive gun laws, none of this shit bothers you because it doesnt apply to you. You have videos like the one in the OP that completely ignore other, equal reasons in an effort to indoctrinate the trained American monkey to spew at first blush of disagreement.

This entire society has been reduced to parroting morons more inclined to worship and parody the death of their brethren than restrict their taskmasters. You are all incurably suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and it shows every time you speak. I dont much care whether this fact offends you or what political vibration you would like to assign my thinking to because clearly, your opinion means absolutely nothing to me.

I would just as soon watch 30% of the population veer their car into a bottomless ravine than listen to them breathe. You are all completely worthless pieces of matter floating around the airspace, sucking and consuming the very life that surrounds in an effort to appease an idealized authority with no eye for you or your family.

The bottom line, if there is any justice in the universe to be had at all, is that you are most assuredly next.

I am most often speechless in the face of everyday citizens actually defending corporate society as a virtue of the American system. Its a simple mechanism of manipulation with you nitwits.

Youre jealous. Extremely jealous of the rich. Instead of hating them or being neutral, you envy them. This envy distorts your view of their progression and importance.

Nike, Microsoft, General Motors, Phizer, etc are no more important to this country than you are...they just have all the money, which makes them more important to the government than you and all of us combined.

Until Americans come to this realization as a whole, we are doomed and this fact depresses me to no end because I am sure that I am right.

I sincerely hope everyone of you bastards, every...single...one, have a Merry fucking Christmas.


:tu

This country was founded on individual liberty and the sovereignty of the people. Over a couple centuries the people have traded that in for material progress. So we have what we have here today. Economic and political power has been centralized, at the hands of the people. What made this country great for the first four score was that at least a good portion of it was free, self-reliant, and independent. Perhaps one of the few times in the last millennium that was the case. Instead of that freedom being extended, all were eventually enslaved.

[Marcus Bryant]

Not to mention literate and also cognizant of threats to their freedom.

[DarkReign]

Not to mention literate and also cognizant of threats to their freedom.

Which on the order of "most important traits" in any species ranks at #1.

1. Ability to identify threats to your well-being

[Winehole23]

I sincerely hope everyone of you bastards, every...single...one, have a Merry fucking Christmas.Back at you DR, -- you sick, sick bastard -- and to the board more generally:


Merry Elfin Christmas, y'all.

[DarkReign]

If American car companies didn't make such shitty cars, Detroit would be Tokyo right now.

Nice. Pull that from your ass, did you?

While I agree American car companies have done no good service to their own name, globalization was inevitable when political will and law enforcement are left to corporatists.

American car companies could be making Cadillacs at Geo prices and most Americans would elect to buy foreign anyway for one reason or another.

No, in all reality, so long as free trade includes outsourcing and globalization, manufacturing as a product of our economy was condemned to death one way or the other. Same with textiles, customer service and tech support.

Just as soon as corporatists figure out a way to offshore their entire scope of business and still sell their product at ridiculous profit to an eagerly ignorant America who actively defends their right to exploit them, they will.

Which is where government comes into play. At this rate, your grandchildren are going to be working for the government because there will be no other choice.

Sure, their paycheck will say an independent, private company...but that company will be beholden to government contracts. Sadly, its the way my business is going right now and I am seriously considering quitting at a time when I stand to make the most money.

I just couldnt look myself in the mirror every morning and say with a straight face "I am a member of the military industrial complex. My livelihood is based on America being in perpetual war, without that, I am unemployed."

I'd be happier unemployed.

[DarkReign]

We in Michigan have a saying that looks to be holding true.

What happens here, happens everywhere else.

Point is, laugh at Detroit, laugh at Michigan...youre next whether you know it or not.

[Ignignokt]

I guess this video makes sense to someone who isnt from the area.

For those of us who are, its complete bullshit. Let me sum Detroit City Proper up for you in one sentence.

The money moved out in the 70s for economic and crime/educational reasons, what you have today is the fallout from that.

Businesses starting up in those times got more favorable tax incentives from the surrounding suburbs, so they started or moved to areas other than Detroit. Detroit thought itself untouchable and didnt care.

What that video doesnt tell you is that Oakland County, a mere 10 miles away, is the third richest county in the country. There is a reason for that, but dont let the facts get in the way of a good story.


Eh... the video is not total bullshit.

You're totally right about the fallout of the manufacturing economy starting the decline.. but Detroit didn't help itself by pumping money into the problem instead of reinventing itself.

You're right.. the video completely left out that important nugget.. but it's progressive policies sped the decline.

Thanks.

And.. i agree with your whole premise of how free trade hindered america.

[Ignignokt]

We in Michigan have a saying that looks to be holding true.

What happens here, happens everywhere else.

Point is, laugh at Detroit, laugh at Michigan...youre next whether you know it or not.

Isn't Detroit near a big body of water? Why didn't it emulate Houston and reinvent itself as a port city.

Detroit is Detroit because of Detroit.

You may have lost a good job, and that's not your fault. But if you don't learn a new trade, you can only point the finger at yourself.

[spursncowboys]

We in Michigan have a saying that looks to be holding true.

What happens here, happens everywhere else.

Point is, laugh at Detroit, laugh at Michigan...youre next whether you know it or not.

There is no way texas would shit on itself year after year for as long as MI has done. Reason being is our state govt. doesn't work enough to screw us up that bad.

[George Gervin's Afro]

There is no way texas would go into decline year after year. Reason being is our state govt. doesn't work enough to screw us up that bad.

unless of course you need medical insurance.

[DarrinS]

unless of course you need medical insurance.



I'll bet you that free health care will totally revitalize Detroit.

[Marcus Bryant]

Well, free trade hasn't, so why not?

[Homeland Security]

If American car companies didn't make such shitty cars, Detroit would be Tokyo right now.
When the purges start, somebody be sure to save a bullet or three for this cunt, mkay?

[DarkReign]

Isn't Detroit near a big body of water? Why didn't it emulate Houston and reinvent itself as a port city.

Detroit is Detroit because of Detroit.

You may have lost a good job, and that's not your fault. But if you don't learn a new trade, you can only point the finger at yourself.

I realize youre not from the area and probably not particularly familiar with detroit as a port city, so I'll ignore your omission of Niagara Falls being in between Michigan and the ocean.

Now, if you meant Michigan being a power on the Great Lakes Trade, they already are...it just doesnt make a difference.

[DarkReign]

There is no way texas would shit on itself year after year for as long as MI has done. Reason being is our state govt. doesn't work enough to screw us up that bad.

Hmm, I am sure Michigan had a similar mindset in the 70s when the steel industry was taking a shit on itself.

[ElNono]

You're totally right about the fallout of the manufacturing economy starting the decline.. but Detroit didn't help itself by pumping money into the problem instead of reinventing itself.


Reinventing itself as what? They're in the manufacturing business and the labor is cheaper somewhere else.

[DarrinS]

DR,


Do you think Detroit is past some point of no return?


I haven't been there in about 10 years, and it already seemed pretty bad then.

[DarrinS]

Reinventing itself as what? They're in the manufacturing business and the labor is cheaper somewhere else.


They would need to attract different businesses to their city. As it is, I don't even know if they have many conventions at Cabo center any more.

[ElNono]

They would need to attract different businesses to their city. As it is, I don't even know if they have many conventions at Cabo center any more.

Well, they have a fair share of Agriculture and Tourism, but that doesn't necessarily help Detroit the city itself. They're just too tied to the auto industry and that's not going to change for the time being.
'Globalization' and 'Free Trade' is what actually happened to the auto industry in this country in general and Detroit in particular.

It's easy to say 'Let's just move to Services from Manufacturing', but in reality it takes a long time, and normally you undergo a lot of shit to transition from one to the other, especially when you already have a manufacturing-heavy market. This is what's happening now, IMO.

[Marcus Bryant]

Detroit is a glittering example of the failure of both wings of American progressivism in the 20th c.

Though both have brought the nation dominance of the world, the empire is clearly rotten at its core. Such was the trade the people made. Buying stuff was too fun. Home ownership was a right, not a privilege, or something you at least worked and saved toward.

[DarkReign]

You may have lost a good job, and that's not your fault. But if you don't learn a new trade, you can only point the finger at yourself.

Maybe youre not directing this comment at me, maybe you are.

To be clear, I am the GM of a small automotive supplier (emphasis on small). Seeing as my entire customer base moved their operations to (literally) just south of the border in Mexico, we have been struggling for years, hemorrhaging cash and employees at remarkable speed.

Now granted I work for an owner who has more pride than the toughest lion and he refuses to quit this game, but I have come to a crossroads.

He obviously doesnt give one shit about the political ramifications of the business we are exploring. He wants work in this building, with employees and profit, period.

I am being the good GM and working this project extremely hard, nailing every detail down from suppliers, customers, their customers, production intent, PPAP, TPP and a myriad of other acronyms I never cared to learn until now.

No matter what happens, if we get it or if we do not, I dont think I can continue doing this anymore. All I have ever known professionally is losing. Think about that...to never succeed. To never know "good times". To constantly hear about the way things used to be, when money was made and played, riding the train.

I only know loss, bleeding, stress, being underpaid, laying off grown men with families indefinitely, having a revolving door of employees that go from full time work to laid off, rinse repeat. Cutting people's salaries constantly....the morale at my place of business has always been extremely low. It is no fun to work here...ever.

I do this because I always thought I could do something about it, maybe not become HUGE and enjoy the rich life, but at least employ good people, provide for them and my family, and end my life with a clean conscience and nice memories. Ive never wanted for much in life and my expectations havent changed.

Now...now I have to make a decision. Become what you hate/detest/wish death upon or walk away.

Honestly, because I hate most of you almost as much as I hate my government, this is a tough decision.

[DarkReign]

DR,


Do you think Detroit is past some point of no return?


I haven't been there in about 10 years, and it already seemed pretty bad then.

Absolutely. Detroit is dead. It is most definitely over forever.

Disclaimer: Barring some major technological breakthrough, but I am not banking on this.

[DarkReign]

It'd be interesting to see what the city would look like today if Archer had never been the Mayor.

For those who do not know, Archer was the first mayor of Detroit to actively seek to re-engage the suburbs to better the entire community, not just Detroit or the suburbs.

He was vehemently detested by black leadership as an Uncle Tom.

Detroit cannot be summed up any different than that.

[DarkReign]

It's all hopeless, you might as well stock up on guns and ammo and food. The only thing changing shit is a civil uprising.

One can only hope


...and pray


....and wish...

[Marcus Bryant]

Racial politics are good business, for both sides. Which is why both continue to play that game, here in the 21st century.

Meanwhile, the American taxpayer just got hit with a 50% increase in the national debt and deficits as far as the eye can see. And not a change in the financial services industry, except perhaps further consolidation. And the Congress just fellated the health insurance industry, with leftist progressives trying to convince themselves they didn't just provide a Christmas gift to the evil doers, and conservative progressives bemoaning the death of Medicare at the hands of "socialism."

[DarkReign]

Eh... the video is not total bullshit.

I hope I didnt come across as saying that the video isnt true, because it is, but omission on the part of journalism is a tacit sin, no matter how low rate said journalist is.

It means one of two things.

Person is ignorant, therefore not worth listening to for any length of time about anything.

Or this person is disingenuous, therefore this person is trying to change political thinking by way of subtle manipulation of facts and presentation.

You decide.


And.. i agree with your whole premise of how free trade hindered america.

I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but I am leaning toward you being serious.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

For those who do not know, Archer was the first mayor of Detroit to actively seek to re-engage the suburbs to better the entire community, not just Detroit or the suburbs.

He was vehemently detested by black leadership as an Uncle Tom.

Detroit cannot be summed up any different than that.

The Black Slate wanted his ass gone. And they blamed the whites for voting him into office, which was true since he garnered over 90% of the white vote and less than 50% of the black vote.

Detroit residents were so happy when they elected Kwame.

[DarkReign]

Racial politics are good business, for both sides. Which is why both continue to play that game, here in the 21st century.

Wedge issue, for sure. Distraction.


Meanwhile, the American taxpayer just got hit with a 50% increase in the national debt and deficits as far as the eye can see. And not a change in the financial services industry, except perhaps further consolidation. And the Congress just fellated the health insurance industry, with leftist progressives trying to convince themselves they didn't just provide a Christmas gift to the evil doers, and conservative progressives bemoaning the death of Medicare at the hands of "socialism."

...yet you have people singing the praises of the current administration and those who vehemently oppose the current power only because their ideologues tell them they should.

Quite literally, neither side could be more wrong on just about everything.

Not only wrong about approach and ramifications, but completely wrong as to why the other side is completely batshit insane.

Its two mentally disabled quadriplegics communicating to the resident nurse about the guilt of the other. Nurse Commonsense no speak retard and is seriously considering pulling the plug on both of them. That or theyre both in on it which requires citizen intervention, nothing else can change our course if this is true.

I wish I could say I was being contrarian for the sake of it, but seriously, if people could just put away their petty political differences for one hot second on a massive scale, 40% of the population wouldnt have to die to really fix it.

[DarrinS]

To be clear, I am the GM of a small automotive supplier (emphasis on small). Seeing as my entire customer base moved their operations to (literally) just south of the border in Mexico, we have been struggling for years, hemorrhaging cash and employees at remarkable speed.




I used to work at an injection molding plant that supplied parts for the big three. That company also relocated to Mexico.

Nature of the beast, I guess.

[Winehole23]

Now...now I have to make a decision. Become what you hate/detest/wish death upon or walk away.True, but in a way this is trivial.

Well, not trivial exactly, but it is a commonplace. In a way, each one of us fights this battle everyday.

I wouldn't presume to give you advice, DR it sounds like a more literal, more everyday struggle for you.

But I would say this: there's always something you can do for money. But the money won't buy you any of the time back.


Honestly, because I hate most of you almost as much as I hate my government, this is a tough decision.Love the honesty. :rollin

[Marcus Bryant]

As much as we try to find significant differences between the two parties, there are none. There's a reason this nation was able to swing from electing (allegedly) a conservative Republican to electing one of the more liberal Democrats in the Senate to the Presidency within a four year span. That's due to the fact that there is little difference between the two parties, save for social issues, or rather, the image each party portrays.

Real differences do not exist. What matters is the score. Politics are nothing more than a spectator sport. Just as one might have a NFL team, NBA, MLB, NCAAF, etc...so they have a political team. Do they know anything about that team's history? Do they know anything about the game? Does that matter? All that matters is who wins.

[boutons_deux]

"significant differences between the two parties"

false, Gore and the Dems would not have been captive of the neo-c*nts and not invaded Iraq, which is a huge negative and will be for many years

But I agree that both parties are captured by the corporations.

[Ignignokt]

I hope I didnt come across as saying that the video isnt true, because it is, but omission on the part of journalism is a tacit sin, no matter how low rate said journalist is.

It means one of two things.

Person is ignorant, therefore not worth listening to for any length of time about anything.

Or this person is disingenuous, therefore this person is trying to change political thinking by way of subtle manipulation of facts and presentation.

You decide.



I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but I am leaning toward you being serious.



No. I'm serious.. I'm leaning now towards free trade being a hinderance towards our future.

What is the solution to stopping outsourcing?

[SouthernFried]

"protectionism" was the evil byword of the last 30 yrs. I've always been a "protectionist" by their own definition I guess. That being...

...If you make American companies abide by myriads of regulations, wage regulations, pollution controls, handicap reg's, etc..etc...etc...all which add to the cost of doing business here...

...then you MUST protect those companies from foreign countries that DO NOT have those extra regulations imposed on their business's...or lose that business.

It's been happening since the 60's. It's continued to happen thru the 70's-80's-90's, until now. ALL that time "protectionism" was a bad word. ALL that time we were losing companies and business. ALL that time idiots were blaming business for leaving, without regard to the underlying causes. ALL that time people were saying, "We need to raise min. wage, put on more regulations and restrictions, tax 'obscene' profits, protect the environment more, demand better health bene's and good retirement plans...and if American biz can't compete with foreign companies that don't have to do any of that, well too damn bad...I want cheap products."

Protecting American business was considered obscene...still is in way too many fools minds.

They're willing to protect the countries borders against foreign attacks, but not American biz against foreign attacks.

Way too late now. Nothing left to protect. Trade treaties should have always been treated like defense treaties. To protect America.

"But...But...prices would have went sky high"

Would they?

Another discussion...

And not everything to do with Detroit either, but significant enough to be a factor.

[Marcus Bryant]

"significant differences between the two parties"

false, Gore and the Dems would not have been captive of the neo-c*nts and not invaded Iraq, which is a huge negative and will be for many years

But I agree that both parties are captured by the corporations.

So there's a difference, but there isn't, but there is. Whatever, chump.

[Winehole23]

Chomp.

[Winehole23]

http://www.bahamaspress.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/shark-kayak.jpg

[boutons_deux]

MB, do you think the Dems would have lied their way into Iraq?

or tried to privatize SocSec?

or let entice US corps to repatatriate $300B overseas profits with a 5% income tax (instead of 35%?)

While both parties are captured and corrupted by corporate money, the Repugs are vastly more business-friendly and not at all interested in governing, as 2000-2008 demonstrated clearly.

[boutons_deux]

"Protecting American business was considered obscene"

American businesses don't want to be protected, only labor does.

American corps are quite happy making $Bs playing Wall St casino (a lot of companies return as much or more in finance games than in real economy production), or buying from overseas rather than making domestically.

American companies are also saddled with a huge albatross of health care, which single-payer, govt-insurance would remove.

[admiralsnackbar]

Came in late, but I just wanted to tell DR that I applaud his honesty, and that I agree with his points -- even when they lapse into abject nihilism.

[Marcus Bryant]

Do I think a Democrat administration would have ordered the invasion of Iraq? Considering the administration prior to Bush père's had no problem rattling the saber at Hussein, and in light of the fact that despite the current WH occupant's apparent inability to follow through on ending, or at least scaling down the state's current military adventures, yes.

[DarkReign]

Real differences do not exist. What matters is the score. Politics are nothing more than a spectator sport. Just as one might have a NFL team, NBA, MLB, NCAAF, etc...so they have a political team. Do they know anything about that team's history? Do they know anything about the game? Does that matter? All that matters is who wins.

:tu

Thats a waaaaaaay better analogy than my stupid quadriplegics bit.

[DarkReign]

No. I'm serious.. I'm leaning now towards free trade being a hinderance towards our future.

What is the solution to stopping outsourcing?

This is where I get wtfpwnd by just about every armchair economist on this board (morojevo, RG, Im looking at you).

I despise money and the people who manipulate it, but I have a rudimentary understanding of the basics.

To me, lowly DR, I have a divergent philosophy from the reigning corporate atmosphere that pervades and dominates the entire scope of American operation. I do not envy the rich and I do not hate them. I think no company should ever be so large as to affect the entire economic system, I think corporations should not have legal personhood, I think corporations should not be allowed to contribute to any political campaign ever, I think corporations who incorporate here in the United States, with all the inherent advantages this provides, are subject to the laws and governing of the United States tax code here and abroad.

Let me explain...

It is my belief corporations are the end-all, be-all of everything thats wrong with out country. There may be some periphery issues that are byproducts of a corporate controlled society, but more or less, remove corporations all-encompassing influence and the nation would be far, FAR healthier for it.

IMO (and this entire post is an opinion), the modern day economic believers will tell you different. They are much like climate change scientists...theyve banked their existence on this form of economic interpretation and any idea that flys in the face of the status quo is heresy.

Like Protectionism.

Protectionism is blamed in part or in whole for just about every war and great economic downturn throughout modern history.

Which is true...when you only consider Europe as a test bed for it. Of course a continent the size of Europe, being composed of countries with completely different cultures, languages and history that are no larger than some of our States, sharing borders with hated, historical enemies or being landlocked by more prosperous neighbors...all of these factors contribute to an accepted idiom like the one posted in this thread that went something like...

"If goods/trade do not cross borders, armies will."

I couldnt agree more...when talking about Europe or other similarly situated civilizations living in such close proximity to diametrically opposed neighbors who even have a vested interest in your downfall as to even help it along if they could.

First, not every Euro country has an adundance of natural resource. Not every country has oil on the continent, not every country has timber (ask England), or rubber trees, or natural gas, etc, etc, etc.

In their situation (this is hypothetical, Ive done no research), when youre France staring at Germany with a wealth of resource and production, with the histories of your two countries, you start to covet thy neighbor's wealth. And this is exactly what trade is...what value do you assign to the goods or services of another? If the price of a needed good is too high by standard (costs too much to pipe gas from one to the other) or by artificial means (I dont fucking like you so I will sell you my monopolized goods at exorbitant prices), then the aquisition of those goods and resource becomes a means for war.

This is the history of Europe in a nutshell. Whether it was a monopoly on thought and belief or a monopoly of resource and industry, Europe is a self-loathing cesspool of cultural intolerance and endless conflict.

For us in the United States? Not so fucking much.

We are extremely resource rich...ridiculously so. What we need from the world we can trade at fair for with no ill will between trading parties, living a peaceful existence without the need for global economic interest.

Ahhh, but this is where things change. Corporations.

Corporations have every incentive you can name to exploit...profit. One word, one meaning, millions of implications. Profit is not a bad thing when done on the proper scale, it is a mutually beneficial operative. But done on a massive scale, spanning a global empire, the corporation's interests become the nation's.

When we allow corporations to elect our government literally wholesale via political contributions and worse yet, political fund-raising events that circumvent the allowable contribution amount via private donations from head of industry, we turn our national interests over to people whose sole goal is profit. Unending, ever-expanding profit. To stop growing is to die in the corporate, publicly-traded world. If you arent climbing, youre falling. Stagnation has no place in the market because the market is no place for stagnation.

America does not spend as much as it does on the military to protect its citizens from outside threats, we spend as much as we do to protect and intimidate on behalf of the global corporate interests in our country. This is the truth, there is no interpretation otherwise, end of fucking discussion. This is not a debate and it is not an opinion. Our military has to be everywhere all the time because our corporations are allowed to be everywhere, all the time.

Africa, East Asia, South America (not so much anymore, we just own their governments), Middle America. All places our corporations exploit everyday for profit.

As it were, these truths make it so we the people are just a necessary evil to government and corporate society, a resource if you will that needs an extra layer of attendance.

And just like every other resource they exploit, they need to create dependency. The Malaysian workers who thread every fabric consumed in America are dependent on those jobs because their country is broke and offers nothing in exchange (with a complicit government in bed with the American corporations). Same thing in Africa and the diamond trade. Diamonds, it turns out, are not very precious stones. They are common and in ample supply. Well, we cant have a flooded market of diamonds, now could we? No, too much money would be lost if such a thing happened, so we keep the continent in turmoil, paying who-the-fuck-ever is in charge this week to allow the strip miners to continue operation; warlords, serial killers, genocidal maniacs, money has no conscience. All in an effort to keep diamond and gold prices extremely high by artificially keeping supply low.

Same with oil only different interests exist here (OPEC, government taxation, commodities market inflation, etc).

We are slaves to them, we have entire college curriculum centered around their game, churning out otherwise intelligent students with de facto thinking about the economic realities of our world, as if these are things we cannot change and that any thinking otherwise is a dreamer's remorse.

I say bullocks. Things are this way because we allow them to be, because we allow ourselves to be manipulated by our perceived superiors. In the past, our superiors were royal Monarchs by birthright...then there were the moral superiors, our church authorities...during this time, there wasnt a clear line who was more powerful, the Monarch or the Church. Over time, both dissipated in strength and power only to be replaced by the modern authority, money.

Money is our authority these days. Whomever has the most, has the power. Whether this wealthy entity is a person, place or thing is of no consequence. Could be a country, could be a corporation, could be a bank or a person or a combination of any, no matter.

And its a brilliant scheme, really. You create a commonly accepted form of wealth that everyone can potentially have, then create rules and regulations surrounding its use that benefits those with the most of it.

I dare say these practices are brilliant on behalf of those who stand to benefit, too bad I am not one of them.

[...I have to go, might complete this thought later...]

[Marcus Bryant]

DR, essentially what you are pointing out is that there is a real cost to the populace due to maximizing certain economic measures. And that cost is borne differently within our society. For the upper middle class and above, the last three decades or so have been grand. Not so for everyone else.

Or, there are political realities just as there are economic ones. The Free Trade gospel glosses over the costs of adjustment in lieu of the grand consumerist benefits to follow. Naturally, realities such as the Chinese not allowing the yuan to appreciate and the transition from higher-paying manufacturing employment to lower paying service employment are dismissed.

Yes, this country is owned by those corps. They even enjoy Bill of Rights protections. Again, the Germanization of the Constitution has produced certain economic wonders, at least for a while, but it doesn't seem to lead to heaven here on Earth, but rather gradual enslavement.

[DarkReign]

In that entire rant, I never addressed the answer "How to fix it?"

Simple. Tax and tariff the living hell out of everything isnt produced inside our borders. Equal the cost of doing business inside our own borders versus being done and shipped here, tax the payroll of outsourced business, force businesses to pay Social Security, Medicare, FUTA, etc on their foreign workers.

Instead of the current system which creates incentive for industry to outsource, create a disincentive and make it so any talk of moving their means of production out of the country a very weighed decision.

because right now, it isnt much of a fucking decision. Our government's tax policy and corporate fillating literally beg industry to leave our country.

Fucking think about that for a moment.

Our American government institutes policies that create incentive for American companies to take jobs elsewhere.

If that isnt evidence that our government is a corporate shill, I dont know what is.

Answer: Limited Protectionism. Level the playing field and I'd love to see someone send "armies across our border" because we dont openly trade (even none of those bastards do, either. America subsidizes the world, its time that shit stopped).

Fucking ridiculous.

[rjv]

You know, Ive done this conversation before and I tire of it. It seems to be, IMO, that nearly all of you fucking dumbshit Americans are brainwashed, corporate stooges who seriously think this system of business is the best in the world and that anyone who questions it is a socialist.

Its much like smoking being banned on private property and local oppressive gun laws, none of this shit bothers you because it doesnt apply to you. You have videos like the one in the OP that completely ignore other, equal reasons in an effort to indoctrinate the trained American monkey to spew at first blush of disagreement.

This entire society has been reduced to parroting morons more inclined to worship and parody the death of their brethren than restrict their taskmasters. You are all incurably suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and it shows every time you speak. I dont much care whether this fact offends you or what political vibration you would like to assign my thinking to because clearly, your opinion means absolutely nothing to me.

I would just as soon watch 30% of the population veer their car into a bottomless ravine than listen to them breathe. You are all completely worthless pieces of matter floating around the airspace, sucking and consuming the very life that surrounds in an effort to appease an idealized authority with no eye for you or your family.

The bottom line, if there is any justice in the universe to be had at all, is that you are most assuredly next.

I am most often speechless in the face of everyday citizens actually defending corporate society as a virtue of the American system. Its a simple mechanism of manipulation with you nitwits.

Youre jealous. Extremely jealous of the rich. Instead of hating them or being neutral, you envy them. This envy distorts your view of their progression and importance.

Nike, Microsoft, General Motors, Phizer, etc are no more important to this country than you are...they just have all the money, which makes them more important to the government than you and all of us combined.

Until Americans come to this realization as a whole, we are doomed and this fact depresses me to no end because I am sure that I am right.

I sincerely hope everyone of you bastards, every...single...one, have a Merry fucking Christmas.


a great speech and there are plenty of excellent points i agree with (short of the excessive existential angst) but also one that makes me wonder if i'll ever be saying to CNN one day: "we all knew he would go on a shooting spree one day...."

[SouthernFried]

Our American government institutes policies that create incentive for American companies to take jobs elsewhere.

If that isnt evidence that our government is a corporate shill, I dont know what is.


You were close till you got here.

You would have to assume that American Corporations WANT to leave the country, to jump to the conclusion that the govt is creating policies and incentives for them to do it.

In my experience, and I do have a little in this area, Corporations don't want to leave the country at all...they are being forced to by those policies and/or lack thereof.

Corporations react to the decisions made in DC...always have. They have to, to survive. Believe me, if those DC decisions made it possible to survive in the US...they would much rather be here, than over there.

[Winehole23]

(short of the excessive existential angst)Morning cup of joe for DR.


but also one that makes me wonder if i'll ever be saying to CNN one day: "we all knew he would go on a shooting spree one day...."
Eh, I doubt it. I worry more about repressed, angry introverts.

[Winehole23]

Corporations react to the decisions made in DC...always have. When their lobbyists do not write the bills themselves, you mean?

[SouthernFried]

When their lobbyists do not write the bills themselves, you mean?

Is there some corporate lobbyist writing a bill somewhere?

I know a few who would like to...so they wouldn't have to leave the country as well.

[Winehole23]

Is there some corporate lobbyist writing a bill somewhere?You've gotta be kidding me, SF. What are lobbyists for?

[Winehole23]

I know a few who would like to...so they wouldn't have to leave the country as well.I wasn't aware lobbying was being outsourced to other countries, or that the lobby was shrinking.

[SouthernFried]

You've gotta be kidding me, SF. What are lobbyists for?

Lobbyists, lobby. They don't write bills.

Private Lobbyists will prolly have to leave the country as well. I mean, what's the point of trying to lobby a bill...when the govt lobby can come in and just buy it outright.

"You don't want to vote for this bill? Here's 10 billion dollars."

Ah, Private lobbyists are a dying breed. Can't compete with govt in this either.

Maybe China, eh?

[admiralsnackbar]

In that entire rant, I never addressed the answer "How to fix it?"

Simple. Tax and tariff the living hell out of everything isnt produced inside our borders. Equal the cost of doing business inside our own borders versus being done and shipped here, tax the payroll of outsourced business, force businesses to pay Social Security, Medicare, FUTA, etc on their foreign workers.


As deep into China's pockets as we are, this will never happen, alas.

[Winehole23]

Lobbyists, lobby. They don't write bills.I don't see how this proposition is tenable even for a second.

How else do lobbies obtain favorable language in the political process, without *whispering range access* to the lawmakers they usually also helped elect?

[Marcus Bryant]

This country is a far cry from what was envisioned back in ol' '76. Yes, leftists are off base on many things, but so are conservatives. The Founders didn't risk what they did so that Wal-Mart, GE, et al...would own the government. And LOL at thinking that corps merely react to federal policy. They own it.

But businesses do react. Small businesses. Shit, middle market companies for the most part as well. The Fortune 100 own Uncle Sam and use that to their advantage. There's no better competitive advantage than when you write the rules.

What amuses me is that conservatives can find plenty of parallels between the leftist movement in these United States and those in Italy, Germany, and the USSR of the 1920s and 30s, but then somehow the connection between that and the neoconservative Cold War movement from the 1950s on is ignored.

Yeah, I'm all over the board. So fucking what? Merry Christmas.

[Wild Cobra]

I hadn't paid attention to this thread. Maybe if I find time, I'll read it.

All I can think of however is Robocop (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093870/)!

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Politics/OCP-1.jpg

[SouthernFried]

Wal-Mart, GE, et al...would own the government. They own it.

Amidst some good stuff, there's always dumb stuff. Today's winner.

But, 'tis the season and all...Merry Christmas to you too :) :toast

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, you'd have to be fairly stupid to believe that isn't the case.

[DarkReign]

SouthernFried,

What makes you think the major corporations of this country do not own our government wholesale?

I am not talking about second tier corps. I speak of the major players of industry and media. GE, Disney, Viacom, Exxon Mobil, WalMart, ING, AIG and to a much lesser extent these days, GM.

You mentioned you have a working knowledge of corporate influence of government, or as you put it, certain corporations interest in having more influence than what we believe.

Before I judge it, I'd like to hear what you mean, if you wish to explain it.

[whottt]

Ultimately that video is accurate...their local government has been Democratic for many decades now. The fall of Detroit is entirely due to the local officials failure to adapt to a changing world and keep the city growing and instead fostering a sense of victimhood and helplessness.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with Republicans.



The Republicans are not the reason Detroit went shithole. And it's not anyone's fault but Detroitians that it has gone that way.

And it's getting shittier shittier the more liberal it gets.

You'd think you guys would mix in a Republican or Indy Mayor once every half a century or so.

That said, if I lived in a city that kept electing such shitty local governments, I'd be in favor of ceding my right to self governance(and the blame that goes with it) too.


It's not just Detoit...Manhattan has the greatest wealth stratification in the US, it is the most overwhelmingly Democratic region of the country, in fact, it's the HQ of the Democratic Party.


This is not to say if Detroit had been electing Republicans for the past 50 years it would be the showplace of the US, nor is it my intent to say all Democratic politicians are corrupt and or incompetent......but Detroit definitely shows what a set and unwavering political inclination can do for or should I say, to, you.

It's basically political inbreeding.


In any case, it's not the end of Detroit. Once it get to a certain level of shithole it's going to become a bargain to invest in.

In fact, I kinda like the housing prices there...I could actually buy a house there with the money I have made in the stock market since the collapse.

[ElNono]

You can always do what Kwame Kilpatrick did... make your money in Detroit, then retire with your family to Southlake, Texas...

[DarkReign]

The Republicans are not the reason Detroit went shithole. And it's not anyone's fault but Detroitians that it has gone that way.

And it's getting shittier shittier the more liberal it gets.

You'd think you guys would mix in a Republican or Indy Mayor once every half a century or so.

This little bit tells me you know absolutely nothing about Detroit.

When you say things like "you guys", as if you have ever met a person who actually had voting rights in Detroit or lived in the city proper.

Because I dont, nor does one person on this forum, not one. Our parents moved away either before we were born or when we very, very young. In my family's case, my grandparent's moved out of Detroit. That was the last of my family to ever dwell in the 313.

[exstatic]

Because they've been sold on the false idea that conservatives are racist redneck bible-thumpin teabaggers?

If they're not now, they're certainly rushing towards it by purging the party.

[exstatic]

WHere is any evidence that someone would make more from a manufacturing job as opposed to a service job? You are talking about people like they are sheep.

Idiot. Just look at Toyota, a not particularly good paying automotive assembly job, and then look at generic service job on the Riverwalk. The Riverwalk job pays about 33-50% of the manufacturing job.

[exstatic]

There is no way texas would shit on itself year after year for as long as MI has done. Reason being is our state govt. doesn't work enough to screw us up that bad.

You're naive beyond belief. Rick Perry is in your bed slipping you the hard one RIGHT NOW.

[Blue Jew]

Good thing he filmed that during the day time.
:lol

What I don't get many of those homes and buildings in the background have been vacant since the Regan and Bush sr era. This guy makes it sound like Detroit was once Sharer heights Ohio.

He does make many points I can see how our policies in this country look out for the almighty dollar and many unions have ruined jobs for others, but I also see that shit all the time no matter who is president and in states that are GOP majority.
Remember in California many major corporations shut down or moved like Goodyear and others in the 60s. And is created a major ghetto of black people who were all of a sudden out of work thus the birth the Compton Crip's and Bloods.

it's in this documentary...


_VoxqBimE2k

[scampers]

My mother grew up in Detroit during the 60's and told me stories of being able to park a high end convertable car with the top down right smack downtown for the day and not having to worry at all about it. She gets depressed every time she drives through Detroit today.

Cleveland is another depressing city to drive through. It always gets to me when I see completely run down, trashed neighborhoods that you KNOW were really nice places to live 30+ years ago.

[Suns Fan]

Doesn't Manny live in Detroit what's his take?

[whottt]

This little bit tells me you know absolutely nothing about Detroit.

When you say things like "you guys", as if you have ever met a person who actually had voting rights in Detroit or lived in the city proper.

I say you guys all the time...I say it for a reason. Whatever you think that statement told you, I can assure you, your conclusion was a bad one.




Because I dont, nor does one person on this forum, not one. Our parents moved away either before we were born or when we very, very young. In my family's case, my grandparent's moved out of Detroit. That was the last of my family to ever dwell in the 313.

I lived in Detroit. Downtown Detroit.

Oops.

My Grandfather, who was born in Grand Rapids, was a chemical engineer who helped construct the wastewater treatment system for Detroit circa 1936-38 or so.


I've got all sort of family ties in Mich..Gerald Ford was a cousin of mine. My ex-wife lives in the upper penninsula as we speak.


However all of that is basically irrelevant...I don't need to have lived in Detroit, nor do I need to have had family that lived there, nor do I need to know someone that has lived there, to make an easily accuarate assessment of why that city is a shithole.

And if I am going to seek out an expert opinion...it's not going to be from someone swimming in the shit, clinging to weight of his own fatalism as if it is a liferaft, I am gonna go seek it from the guy smart enough to not swim in the shit.


However I don't need to do that...there is pretty much a template for turning a city into a shithole, and a perennially Democrat government is a major part of it....


You see, I don't know why poor people who are shitty businessmen yet are still smart enough to go to the cheapest store to buy their beer, think the rich people who are good businessmen are going to be too stupid to go by the cheaper beer too...yet for some reason they do.

It's pretty much an ironclad rule that people that think that of the rich people...wind up swimming in their own shit.

[whottt]

:lol

What I don't get many of those homes and buildings in the background have been vacant since the Regan and Bush sr era. This guy makes it sound like Detroit was once Sharer heights Ohio.

He does make many points I can see how our policies in this country look out for the almighty dollar and many unions have ruined jobs for others, but I also see that shit all the time no matter who is president and in states that are GOP majority.
Remember in California many major corporations shut down or moved like Goodyear and others in the 60s. And is created a major ghetto of black people who were all of a sudden out of work thus the birth the Compton Crip's and Bloods.

it's in this documentary...


_VoxqBimE2k


Did they mention the fact that Compton also, like Detroit, has had a Democrat government for about 50 years now?




You name me a shithole...I'll show you a half century or so of Democrat control.


New Orleans? Yeap.
Washinton DC? Yeap.
Chicago? Yeap.
Detroit? Yeap.


Ironically enough those exact same cities take turns being the murder capital of the US.

New York is another one...when was the only time crime crime showed a significant decrease in New York coinciding with a rise in the quality of life?

When they elected Guilianni, the first Republican Mayor of NYC in 50 years or so.



I have no sympathy for people that elect shitty officials because they think they are going to get something free out of the deal. Over and over and over and over again.

All it does is drive the non-dumbasses from those cities. An unerringly perfect brain drain.


And if the US goes that route, I will have no sympathy for the US either. Because all the non-dumbasses will either unite to stop it, leave the country and let it descend into shitholery, or figure out how to stand upon those swimming in their own shit.

So I have no sympathy for the state of Michigan, the city of Detroit etc. They are doing it to themselves. If you guys storm your cith halls, and murder your city leaders, you will begin to have my sympathy.


PS: I live in Austin. The most liberal city in the state of Texas. It is easily the most stratified city in this state, with the highest cost of living, the most over inflated real estate values, and it's got the most incompetent city planners in the state...and I can say with all certainty Austin will one day be a shithole(for a significant portion of the population).

You pretty much need to take the ky anytime you are trying to park in downtown Austin, because the city and UT, intend to fuck you every which way it is humanly possible to do so.


You are never going to tax away inequality, the rich people will just raise the prices to cover the taxes...or go somewhere else.

[scampers]

Did they mention the fact that Compton also, like

So I have no sympathy for the state of Michigan, the city of Detroit etc. They are doing it to themselves. If you guys storm your cith halls, and murder your city leaders, you will begin to have my sympathy.



This isn't all about Government. A good bit, yes, but not all. Michigan was built on manufacturing. Manufacturing is the ONLY reason there is any kind of dense population in the state. When the manufacturing industry went to shit, so did the state. The dense population that once flourished in the manufacturing industry turned into a bunch of unemployed thugs.

I see it all around Boston, where I live now, as well. A lot of towns around here are full of huge, abandoned mills and shoe factories. Towns with a large amount of these abandoned factories usually have a bunch of shitty neighborhoods to go with them.

You can blame this on Government, but make a shout out to the Chinese kids that will work for $.50/hour as well.

[SouthernFried]

I don't blame those chinese kids.

I again blame govt...for not punishing trading with countries that employ child/slave labor. US Trade policies have sucked for a very long time.

Unions helped little as well.

Local/State govt screwed up. US trade policy screwed up. Unions screwed up. GM execs screwed up. Fed govt policies screwed up.

All combined, disaster was inevitable.

The US has not been business freindly for quite a while now. It's not hard to predict what is going to happen.

The real question is...who benefits when business goes under?

No one you say?

look again.

[whottt]

Michigan, Detroit and their Unions at their finest:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703478704574612341241120838.html


Michigan Forces Business Owners Into Public Sector Unions After hemorrhaging members for decades, labor unions have hit upon a new way to shore up their annual dues revenue..



Michelle Berry runs a private day-care service from her home on the outskirts of this city, the birthplace of General Motors. "The Berry Patch," as she calls the service, features overstuffed purple gorillas, giant cartoon murals, and a playroom covered in Astroturf. Her clients are mostly low-income parents who need child care to keep their jobs in a city that now has a 26% unemployment rate.

Ms. Berry owns her own business—yet the Michigan Department of Human Services claims she is a government employee and union member. The agency thus withholds union dues from the child-care subsidies it sends to her on behalf of her low-income clients. Those dues are funneled to a public-employee union that claims to represent her. The situation is crazy—and it's happening elsewhere in the country.

A year ago in December, Ms. Berry and more than 40,000 other home-based day care providers statewide were suddenly informed they were members of Child Care Providers Together Michigan—a union created in 2006 by the United Auto Workers and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. The union had won a certification election conducted by mail under the auspices of the Michigan Employment Relations Commission. In that election only 6,000 day-care providers voted. The pro-labor vote turned out.

Many of the state's other 34,000 day-care providers never even realized what was going on. Ms. Berry tells us she was "shocked" to find out she was suddenly in a union. The real dirty work, however, had been done when the state created an "employer" for the union to "organize" against.

Of course, Michigan's independent day-care providers don't work for anybody except the parents who were their customers. Nevertheless, because some of these parents qualified for public subsidies, the Child Care Providers "union" claimed the providers were "public employees."

Michigan's Department of Human Services then teamed with Flint-based Mott Community College to sign an "interlocal agreement" in 2006 establishing a separate government agency called the Michigan Home Based Child Care Council. This council was directed to recommend good child-care practices—and not coincidentally, to serve as a "public employer." Although the council had almost no staff, no control over the state subsidies and no supervision of the providers' daily activities, it became the shell corporation against which the union could organize.

Thus the state created an ersatz employer and an ersatz "bargaining unit" against which what was essentially an ersatz union could organize.

Today the Department of Human Services siphons about $3.7 million in annual dues to the union—from the child-care subsidies. The money should be going to home-based day-care providers—themselves not on the high end of the income scale. Ms. Berry now sees money once paid to her go to a union that does little for her. [/b]She says she is "self employed and wants nothing to do with the union."[/b]

The union claims it is working for Ms. Berry and others like her by pressing the legislature to increase child-care payments. But lobbying is not an activity that requires compulsory unionism.

Sherry Loar, who owns a day-care center in Petoskey, Mich., is the lead client in a lawsuit brought against the Department of Human Services in state court by the legal arm of the Michigan-based Mackinac Center, a free-market think tank for whom we work. (Ms. Berry is petitioning to join the suit.) The case is based on the grounds that state law presumes that no one is subject to public-sector bargaining unless state legislation has made them so, and in this case, there is no legislation—only the flimsy interlocal agreement. "I'm not opposed to unions," Ms. Loar says, "everything has a place. But when we enter my door, this is my home."

The larger question, not part of this lawsuit, is whether this sort of unionization violates the U.S. Constitution. The freedom of association clause prevents compulsory unionism except, courts have determined, when it is necessary for "labor peace." But in this case, whom would the day-care providers riot against? The parents?

The federal question may be raised soon, as other states have pursued similar unionization schemes over the past decade, primarily at the behest of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees and the Service Employees International Union, better known as the SEIU. Fourteen states have now enabled home-based day-care providers to be organized into public-employee unions, affecting about 233,000 people. And nine have done so with home health-care providers. The idea to unionize in this way was hatched in California, though ironically Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has vetoed legislation to unionize child-care providers.

It's telling that in several states that have gone down this road, state and federal subsidies are the source of the union dues. In Michigan, the scheme is essentially throwing a cash lifeline to unions like the UAW, which are hemorrhaging members.

There's another, ironic twist to the story in the Great Lakes state. Last month the Michigan Economic Development Corporation granted a for-profit SEIU subsidiary, the SEIU Member Action Service Center, a $2 million refundable tax credit to locate a new business facility in the state that will provide administrative services for the union and other local labor organizations. The subsidy strikes us as inappropriate because it categorized the SEIU subsidiary as a business and occurred just before the 5,000 member SEIU local 517M granted the state wage concessions. Shamelessly, the SEIU requested the credit because Michigan has high labor costs.

Some states are redefining straightforward terms—a union as a business, an employer as an employee—primarily to aid organized labor. This highlights the need to re-examine public-sector collective bargaining. Shielded from market pressures, public employee unions have driven up taxpayer costs for decades. Now labor leaders are shanghaiing entrepreneurs such as Ms. Berry and Ms. Loar into government unions because their clients receive government aid. Who will be next? Grocers? Landlords? Doctors?

Mr. Wright is director of the Mackinac Center Legal Foundation. Mr. Jahr is senior director of communications for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a research and educational institute headquartered in Midland, Mich.




Now on the one hand, the Union is only siphoning off the government. OTOH, the fact it's formed by the UAW is telling. That piece of shit is going under and now it's going after babysitters :lol


What's next, allowance money?


I hope you Michiganites sleep well with that fine Govt you have elected for yourself...your tax dollars at work.


And it wasn't like anyone couldn't see the GOVT you had...yet you guys went for the same shit in the Presidential election. :lol

It's like...the shitty city and state govt you have is making things worse, so what do you contribute? You contribute making the Federal Govt just like them.

Why don't you guys just fucking secede? No one will stop you. And try to stay in Michigan if you are a Democrat.

No Democrat should be allowed to leave Michigan.


I am sorry, but Michigan is a fucking stupid state. Kicking it's own ass. And no doubt it's only going to get stupider with every step until it reaches completely shithole status.

The only possible redeeming thing you might have going for you is that your elections are rigged and predetermined...I actually hope that's what it is. That's actually better than if ya'll are actually electing them.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Call me crazy, but detroits downfall began once Berry Gordy uprooted camp.

'being totally serious here.

[Winehole23]

Call me crazy, but detroits downfall began once Berry Gordy uprooted camp.

'being totally serious here.
Gordy sold his interests in Motown Records to MCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Corporation_of_America) and Boston Ventures on June 28, 1988 for $61 million. He also later sold most of his interests in the Jobete publishing concern to EMI Publishing.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Gordy

[DarkReign]

I lived in Detroit. Downtown Detroit.

Oops.

My Grandfather, who was born in Grand Rapids, was a chemical engineer who helped construct the wastewater treatment system for Detroit circa 1936-38 or so.


I've got all sort of family ties in Mich..Gerald Ford was a cousin of mine. My ex-wife lives in the upper penninsula as we speak.

Meh, fair enough. But you should know two things very well then. Most individuals who have a seated interest in Detroit do not live in the city. Second, Michigan's economy was/is solely based on manufacturing.

I'll assume you already know that when you say shit like this...


However all of that is basically irrelevant...I don't need to have lived in Detroit, nor do I need to have had family that lived there, nor do I need to know someone that has lived there, to make an easily accuarate assessment of why that city is a shithole.

And if I am going to seek out an expert opinion...it's not going to be from someone swimming in the shit, clinging to weight of his own fatalism as if it is a liferaft, I am gonna go seek it from the guy smart enough to not swim in the shit.

It's pretty much an ironclad rule that people that think that of the rich people...wind up swimming in their own shit.

Move away. Leave your family your friends and your life behind. Its a fair thing to do, but not all of us are broke and cant make it. Moreover, this is beautiful part of the country, I dont want to move away.

The decisions I made in my life have made it most likely that I never have to move. Doesnt make watching your entire area's lifeblood dry up and die any more tolerable. Watch friends you grew up with and family members have to uproot and go some place else they never wanted to or struggle with unemployment, etc. All this only because the world market dictates it this way in the name of profit.

The death of Detroit is the death of Michigan, the death of Michigan is the death of manufacturing in this country (except government contracts), which is by far the most tragic because it implies loss of the middle class and the true beginning of the end of this country, IMO.

Maybe youre right, I am a fatalist. Then again, maybe youre wrong and completely underestimate the implications.

Maybe youre more fatalist than me in wanting the erosion of control a healthy and wealthy middle class provides. Take it for what it is.

[Marcus Bryant]

We feel pity for the slaves of the Chinese state, while not realizing that we're slaves of the American state.

[spursncowboys]

Idiot. Just look at Toyota, a not particularly good paying automotive assembly job, and then look at generic service job on the Riverwalk. The Riverwalk job pays about 33-50% of the manufacturing job.

You fucking idiot. bussers aren't the only service jobs. Management, electrician, plumbers, secretaries, entry level.

[Marcus Bryant]

As if an American can compete with the slave labor from abroad. I know, you've fallen for the free trade gospel. That's all well and good, so long as your ass can't be replaced.

[Marcus Bryant]

spursncowboys is a real dickwad, and a real glory hunter. For the moment, his livelihood is secure, so he's comfortable PISSING AND SHITTING ON HIS COUNTRYMEN. But he'll get his. Oh, he will get his.

[spursncowboys]

spursncowboys is a real dickwad, and a real glory hunter. For the moment, his livelihood is secure, so he's comfortable PISSING AND SHITTING ON HIS COUNTRYMEN. But he'll get his. Oh, he will get his.

You are the guy deciding who is allowed in your club. dumbass. How am I doing anything to my countrymen except for voting for what is best for all americans, and believing in a system which will make everybody stronger? I never vote with "what is in it for me". Also I had a huge problem with joining where I am because I hated the idea of working for the govt. I hate the idea that the only pay raises I can get have a type of senority. Be Tee Dubayu, I am losing thousands every year since doing what I do.

[Marcus Bryant]

ROFL.

Yeah, war is what is best for all Americans. I'm so glad we have people like you are able to determine what Americans die for. Not to mention what is "socialism" and what is not. Stop sucking off the government teat you fucking commie and make it on your own already.

[whottt]

Meh, fair enough. But you should know two things very well then. Most individuals who have a seated interest in Detroit do not live in the city. Second, Michigan's economy was/is solely based on manufacturing.

I'll assume you already know that when you say shit like this...


I know both of those things, however, not because I lived in Detroit. I lived in Detroit for a month in the late 80's. I sold books door to door in Elkhart Indiana for the Southerwestern Company one summer and at summers end I found myself with 12k dollars about 9k of which was supposed to go back to the company, and I elected to keep the entire 12k for myself, and, live a little, for just a bit. I wanted to do two things exactly, live in downtown Chicago, party, and fuck some girls,and live in downtown Detroit, party, and fuck some girls. And I lived extremely well for the few months it lasted. I can't say I remember much detail at all from living in either place other than the feeling of living in a legendary city. I damn sure didn't take part in any elections or pay attention to any electoral and economic processes.

IOW, living there doesn't mean much. Plus I like telling that story.


Anyway, yes I knew those things, but not because I lived there.


I do know however that one of the main purposes of a city government is to encourage investment and economic growth in the city. Likewise for state.


So when you say to me, Michigan's economy is based entitirely on manufacturing, and those jobs have fled, I say, that's exactly what I mean when I say your government fails.





Move away. Leave your family your friends and your life behind.

Pretty much what most families living in America have done at some point in their family history.




Its a fair thing to do, but not all of us are broke and cant make it. Moreover, this is beautiful part of the country, I dont want to move away.

The decisions I made in my life have made it most likely that I never have to move. Doesnt make watching your entire area's lifeblood dry up and die any more tolerable. Watch friends you grew up with and family members have to uproot and go some place else they never wanted to or struggle with unemployment, etc. All this only because the world market dictates it this way in the name of profit.


Amazing how those unions intendeed to improve the lives of workers are even more corrupt than the corporations themselves. At the very least they are just as bad. Because now they are a parasitic entity sucking the host dry in order to survive. They are killing their host. But they aren't the only thing killing it...






The death of Detroit is the death of Michigan, the death of Michigan is the death of manufacturing in this country (except government contracts), which is by far the most tragic because it implies loss of the middle class and the true beginning of the end of this country, IMO.


I don't think class stratification should be imposed, guaranteed, promised, mandated, or anything of the sort, middle class or otherwise.







Maybe youre right, I am a fatalist. Then again, maybe youre wrong and completely underestimate the implications.


Oh I'm not wrong. The unions are every bit as tyrannical and greedy as the corporations are. I don't give a shit if they are run my countrymen or not. Those politicians sucking ass are also my countrymen.

It's not the corporations' job to make sure they are middle class, it's theirs. It's also not the corporations' job to bring jobs to Detroit and Michigan, it's the governments of Detroit and Michigan, and the citizens that elect them, job to do that.





Maybe youre more fatalist than me in wanting the erosion of control a healthy and wealthy middle class provides. Take it for what it is.


Oh I am pro middle class however, I don't see why they should have guaranteed income when their employer does not(even if it is a greedy corporation).

It's not an ethical issue with me, it's a reality issue to me. It's a principle at odds with economic reality.



Beyond all that...the US automakers started making shittier cars, that weren't as pleasing to the eye, that didn't appeal to the American car buyer.


Those guys are my fellow citizens too you see. They should be able to buy what they want, it's both the jobs of the corporations and their employees to make me want their product.





Amazingly enough, I drive Jeep Wranglers, made in America by Americans. Amazing how that is one vehicle that has kept it's popularity and maintained it's place...much better than the companies that have owned the rights to produce it. It's changed little in appearance since it was originally created 70 years or so ago. Perhaps that has much to do with it....



Maybe, both the unions and the car manufacturers ought to turn the dial back to about 1975 or so...the year IMO they started going to shit.

[whottt]

As if an American can compete with the slave labor from abroad. I know, you've fallen for the free trade gospel. That's all well and good, so long as your ass can't be replaced.

Slave labor? Are you talking about China? Sweatshops in Maylaysia? Fine with me if you want to fuck China, I don't understand why in the fuck we bailed them out in the housing crisis...no one bails my ass out of bad investments.


However...that's not only why Detroit has gone shithole. It's their product, their durability, their aeshetic appeal to the American consumer etc.


Furthermore, when those very unions which serve to work against both their employer and the American consumer, walk lockstep with a political party that promotes environmental issues that actually work directly aginst the American car companies...I blame no one but them.


Americans still buy trucks. The buy SUVs. They buy Jeeps. They do not buy them because they are "American" vehicles. They do not buy them for the great gas mileage. They buy them because they are appealing to the American car buyer. Whereas just about every car they make, is not. Or not for long anyway.


You want to take the corporations down a notch? Fine with me..as long we take the unions down a notch as well. I'd probably go after the corporations in a different way then you would, I'd go after their size with antitrust laws, break them up a bit, put them competing against one another, for both workers and consumers. but I don't see how your way of protectionism no matter how you do it, is going to benefit the American consumer much in terms of variety though, and like it or not those consumers are American citizens too....

[whottt]

More:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20091224/OPINION01/912240340/1008/People-flee-state-s-taxing-policies

People flee state's taxing policies
Michael LaFaive and Michael Hicks
The U.S. Census Bureau reported Wednesday that Michigan's population decreased for the fourth year in a row -- this time by more than 32,000 people during the past 12 months. Worse, while two other states also saw declines in population, Michigan lost people at a higher rate as a percentage of the population.

For years, the Mackinac Center has warned state officials that residents are fleeing for friendlier economic climates. They're going to opportunity states, where taxes and regulation typically fall lighter on the backs of business and families.

Michigan could reverse this trend by lowering the cost of living, working and investing in Michigan. If you lower the price of nearly any good, more of it will be demanded in the market -- and vice versa.

Advertisement
Unfortunately, Lansing's careerist politicians have served the system and their own interests, and people in part are voting with their feet against this.

Among the price hikes our political class have imposed during the past seven years are a sneaky property tax shift hike; an 11.5 percent increase in the personal income tax; a 75-cents-per-pack cigarette tax increase; a complex business tax with a further 22 percent surcharge that extracts an extra $600 million annually from enterprises choosing to remain or locate here; several new occupational licensure, regulation and fee regimes; expensive renewable energy mandates and more.

To add insult to economic injury, various members of the political class have proposed even more tax increases, including a job-killing $6.5 billion graduated income tax. Just the existence of such proposals can have the effect of driving people away if they rationally perceive a chance that such a thing might become law.

The official census isn't the only population-related information officials here should be aware of. United Van Lines, the nation's largest moving company, has tracked where its customers go since 1977. Through November of this year, United reports that 64.8 percent of their Michigan-related client traffic was outbound -- the highest of any state. Michigan has held this distinction since 2006. New Jersey is the only other state to exceed the 60 percent outbound rate, at 60.7 percent.

In 2008, we undertook a Michigan-specific migration study in the hope of isolating factors that influence migration decisions. Our model included such important factors as tax burden, the unemployment rate, climate and welfare (transfer) payments. Among the findings, for every 10 percent increase in personal taxes, every year 4,700 more people leave for friendlier tax climes. That is why Michigan now tastes the bitter fruit of an 11.5 percent income tax hike imposed in 2007.

We also discovered that for every 1 percentage point increase in the unemployment rate, an additional 900 people make a run for the border every year. That may not sound like much, but consider the compounding effect of this state's unemployment rate rising from 3.2 percent in 2000 to 15.1 percent in October of this year (it's now at 14.7 percent).

The fact that Michigan's welfare system -- its transfer payments -- drew people to Michigan is hardly a reassuring counterbalance to those depressing figures. Specifically, every 10 percent increase in transfer payments resulted in a net in-migration of almost 850 persons annually. This is not how to make a state more prosperous.

Proponents of higher taxes and a larger welfare state may cry foul at our analysis, complaining that Michigan's woes are simply a function of auto industry troubles. But when the automobile industry was enjoying near-record sales from 2003 through 2006, Michigan's relative decline was already under way. The automobile industry's woes certainly haven't helped, but the governor and the Legislature have greatly worsened the state's troubles with a raft of bad policies. Meanwhile, states that made wiser policy choices have been eating our economic lunch.

Here's the bottom line: Wrongheaded policy is what's killing Michigan; our economic and demographic lifeblood continues to drain south and west in pursuit of better opportunities. Unless we cut the cost of remaining in Michigan, this trend will continue.

Michael LaFaive is director of the Morey Fiscal Policy Initiative at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a research and educational institute in Midland. Michael Hicks is a center adjunct scholar and is director of the Center for Business and Economic Research at Ball State University. E-mail comments to [email protected].




The Brain Drain is never ever ever good. It's the worst of all things. The problem, first and foremost.

[jacobdrj]

I live in Detroit. The city is dead because of heavy racial tensions that existed since before the Civil War, the automotive industry creating a strange huge gap between unionized blue-collar and non-unionized white collar workers. And that same automotive industry killing all our mass transportation.

Other cities had problems, stimulus packages and the like. Only Detroit didn't get a subway, or a decent buss system. Only Detroit was deluding itself into thinking that they were racially progressive, when in fact they were as bad as the Jim Crow south.

Oh, and let us not forget the revenge politics that has been going on since Coleman Young, continuing through Kwame Kilpatrick, and only now, may be ending with Dave Bing.

Corruption has gone unchecked and unregulated in Detroit for decades, causing the school system to go beyond broke.

Detroit may be a blue city, buy Michigan is a very very very VERY Red state.

[whottt]

Detroit may be a blue city, buy Michigan is a very very very VERY Red state.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Granholm

http://www.270towin.com/

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/individual/#mapPMI

[jacobdrj]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Engler
http://www.infomi.com/statesenate.html

Nobody is doubting that Detroit is blue, or that they are not the most populous city in MI, which tends to dictate presidential and gubinatorial positions, but the senate is majority republican and not that long ago had an uber-conservative governor.

[whottt]

If Detroit and other major cities that comprise the economic backbone of the state are blue and the unions are the most powerful political factions in the state, then the state is blue. And has been for however long that has been the case.


Look here's the deal...major differences between the Republicans and the Democrats? The Democrats think government is the solution. So when you have a city that thinks government is the solution, you wind up with a city dependent on the government to be the solution.

Government, any government is seldom the solution to anything. That is the premise this country was founded upon.


Generally, Republicans realize government is not the solution, and Democrats don't.


The Republicans are right...Governments, all governments, are corrupt to some degree The longer people are allowed to stay in place, the more powerful they become, the more corrupt they get.

The only thing you can kind of sort of count on the Republicans and Democrats to do that is basically incorrupt, is expose the corruption of the other(sometimes), for their own gain, that and that alone is reason enough to mix it up every 50 years or so.

If I'd lived in Detroit for the last 50 years and it had been red all that time and was in the condition and direction it has been going for the last 20-30 years, Castro would be looking good about now.

[Heath Ledger]

Well I survived my trip to Detroit. It wasn't quite as cold as in years past from what I can remember. However was cold enough to remind me why I left. The Jerry Springer family drama is still very strong as usual. I think I may cut back on my visits to every 3 or 4 years instead of every year or two.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Gordy

uh, did you read the stuff before that in the same section, einstein?
uprooted=move if that's to hard to comprehend.



and if it is
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/uproot