KG or Dirk, who better career?

[TDMVPDPOY]

I bring this up, so who has the better career or is either one of them top5 PF all time?

top5
td, malone, barkley, kg or dirk, petit.....


i see the same moron excuses kgfans wanna bring into this, just like the shit they been bringing arguments when compared to timmay.....

so whats ur take td/dirk/kg fans? since its neutral in here....

[Chieflion]

KG's career is better than Dirk's, as much as I dislike KG for being a complete douchebag.

[ezau]

1>0

[Cry Havoc]

KG and it's not close, although Dirk is clearly the better (younger) player right now.

[jag]

It's really hard to compare the two. I guess you have to say KG cause he got the ring...but if you stick Dirk with Ray Allen, Pierce, Perkins and Rondo then Dirk ends up with a ring, also. When has Dirk ever had a legitimate star to play alongside him? Jason Kidd doesn't count...and neither does Desagana Diop.

KG is all about self hype...he's constantly hyping himself on and off the court. Dirk just goes out there and plays his ass off. Any hype he gets is based off of ridiculous play.

As far as leadership goes, KG is not the great leader that everyone thinks he is. He's hyped himself up so much in the media that everyone thinks he's running shit in the locker room. Truth is, Paul Pierce was running shit in that locker room. As a the team leader, Garnett perennially failed to advance pass the first round. Even when he had Marbury, before Marbury was Starbury. I guess the main problem with Dirk is that he's failed to be a great leader during the big series...but he can only carry those clowns so far. Devean George and Antoine Walker arent great options during crunch time.

In the end, Dirk will never be considered the dominant low post player that KG was. In the same way, though, KG will never be considered the offensive force that Dirk has always been.

And I really wish Robinson would have whooped KG's ass in '99.

[blkroadrunners]

KG put up very impressive numbers back in his Minnesota days, but they have dropped some for the past few years. Dirk has been more consistent especially the past few years, and is still putting up good numbers. W/ all that said though, I have KG, as a career, better.

[DxB]

It's really hard to compare the two. I guess you have to say KG cause he got the ring...but if you stick Dirk with Ray Allen, Pierce, Perkins and Rondo then Dirk ends up with a ring, also. When has Dirk ever had a legitimate star to play alongside him? Jason Kidd doesn't count...and neither does Desagana Diop.

KG is all about self hype...he's constantly hyping himself on and off the court. Dirk just goes out there and plays his ass off. Any hype he gets is based off of ridiculous play.

As far as leadership goes, KG is not the great leader that everyone thinks he is. He's hyped himself up so much in the media that everyone thinks he's running shit in the locker room. Truth is, Paul Pierce was running shit in that locker room. As a the team leader, Garnett perennially failed to advance pass the first round. Even when he had Marbury, before Marbury was Starbury. I guess the main problem with Dirk is that he's failed to be a great leader during the big series...but he can only carry those clowns so far. Devean George and Antoine Walker arent great options during crunch time.

In the end, Dirk will never be considered the dominant low post player that KG was. In the same way, though, KG will never be considered the offensive force that Dirk has always been.

And I really wish Robinson would have whooped KG's ass in '99.

You clearly have no clue what you're on about.

He had Marbury? So all the players and money the Mavs have doesnt matter to you? You're instead claiming that the KG + Marbury combination which lasted fucking ONE YEAR was good enough to win it all but didnt because KG's leadership sucks? But on the other hand, Dirk and all the players he's played with from Steve Nash onwards were all fags and Dirks been carrying the load himself?

Add into the mix that the Mavs have more money, better coaches etc... and you have an EPIC FAIL.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i see kgfans will bring in that shit about being stuck with shitty management, well he wasnt complaining when he received max contracts that hurt his team from signin anyone...

while with dirk, cuban went all out signing whoever he can, even in luxury tax to get the win...

accumulative stats KG has dirk beaten, but most of his stats were padding stats on a one man team.....the only thing dirk has on him is accumulative points.

Kgs dpoy is a just like a participation award handed him while duncan has been posting the same defensive numbers for a decade and cant even win one....even his finals ring is overrated, what happens if dirk gets traded to the lakers, would he get the same recognition for a ring like garnett? playing 2nd or 3rd fiddle to someone else....

the gap between the two players is closer than what alot of ppl think compared to td/kg, td/dirk where theres a huge gap.....

kg and dirk belong in the same tier of excuses

[TDMVPDPOY]

You clearly have no clue what you're on about.

He had Marbury? So all the players and money the Mavs have doesnt matter to you? You're instead claiming that the KG + Marbury combination which lasted fucking ONE YEAR was good enough to win it all but didnt because KG's leadership sucks? But on the other hand, Dirk and all the players he's played with from Steve Nash onwards were all fags and Dirks been carrying the load himself?

Add into the mix that the Mavs have more money, better coaches etc... and you have an EPIC FAIL.

Kg had billups at one point in his career, and look what happen when billups was traded away....he went on to win....

Kg has a few good players around him but they didnt stay long...

if td can win a ring with rasho, then how come kg cant win one with rasho when he had him.....

u say the mavs have more money, doesnt the wolves owner own 2 other sports team in minnesota...you fail there man....the owner was willing to spend, just that he thought he could win with one man, while cuban the smart one, went out and sign whoever he can even with the MLE every year when his team was over the cap....and they drafted well also compared to the wolves who were suspended from drafts for a few seasons cause of the under the table bs they pull.......

[DxB]

Kg had billups at one point in his career, and look what happen when billups was traded away....he went on to win....

Kg has a few good players around him but they didnt stay long...

if td can win a ring with rasho, then how come kg cant win one with rasho when he had him.....

u say the mavs have more money, doesnt the wolves owner own 2 other sports team in minnesota...you fail there man....the owner was willing to spend, just that he thought he could win with one man, while cuban the smart one, went out and sign whoever he can even with the MLE every year when his team was over the cap....and they drafted well also compared to the wolves who were suspended from drafts for a few seasons cause of the under the table bs they pull.......


haha wtf is everyone here wearing fucking blinders?

Tim had Rasho and won and KG had Rasho and didnt?

Tim also had fuckin Manu, Tony, and Pop. A good team, a great organization and all that.

How is it all of you retards isolate one fucking variable (or player) and base your whole arguement on that? Act like you fuckin went to school.

[Jacob1983]

If championships aren't included in the discussion, then I would pick Dirk. Dirk has become the best shooting big man in NBA history. KG had to have Ray Allen and Paul Pierce to win a championship. Dirk is the Mavs. Without Dirk, there wouldn't be a Mavs team in my opinion. Defensively, KG is way better than Dirk. However, I think Dirk's offensive game makes up for it.

[jag]

You clearly have no clue what you're on about.

He had Marbury? So all the players and money the Mavs have doesnt matter to you? You're instead claiming that the KG + Marbury combination which lasted fucking ONE YEAR was good enough to win it all but didnt because KG's leadership sucks? But on the other hand, Dirk and all the players he's played with from Steve Nash onwards were all fags and Dirks been carrying the load himself?

Add into the mix that the Mavs have more money, better coaches etc... and you have an EPIC FAIL.

So the fact that the Cuban spends a lot of money is what makes KG a better player?? that makes sense

Having Marbury (for two seasons), who at the time was one of the best young talents in the league, doesn't stack up to Steve Nash (Maverick's version)? At the time, Marbury and Nash had similar stats...but Marbury was like a prodigy. The guy was putting out around 9 assists and 18 ppg in his second season. At any time Marbury could go off for 35...i remember this cause he used to always do it to the Spurs. You're also forgetting Tom Gugliotta. That trio was supposed to be the next big thing.

Dirk had Michael Finley. And i don't remember calling Popeye Jones a "fag." He just wasn't as good as Tom Gugliotta.

Wait...you're the same guy who made the "LOL the mavs lost by 35 points -- 35 pt road loss > 60 pt home playoff loss," right?

[Chieflion]

If championships aren't included in the discussion, then I would pick Dirk. Dirk has become the best shooting big man in NBA history. KG had to have Ray Allen and Paul Pierce to win a championship. Dirk is the Mavs. Without Dirk, there wouldn't be a Mavs team in my opinion. Defensively, KG is way better than Dirk. However, I think Dirk's offensive game makes up for it.
Uh no. You take the championship off and it is still Garnett by a hair. He has an MVP and was a former defensive player of the year. The defensive accomplishments of Garnett would trump Dirk's.

[jag]

Uh no. You take the championship off and it is still Garnett by a hair. He has an MVP and was a former defensive player of the year. The defensive accomplishments of Garnett would trump Dirk's.

They are two different types of players. It's all relative. It's all about how you judge greatness. I don't think KG makes players around him perform better, and I don't think KG is the leader that everyone thinks he is. He certainly wasn't the leader of the ring team.

[blkroadrunners]

It's really hard to compare the two. I guess you have to say KG cause he got the ring...but if you stick Dirk with Ray Allen, Pierce, Perkins and Rondo then Dirk ends up with a ring, also. When has Dirk ever had a legitimate star to play alongside him? Jason Kidd doesn't count...and neither does Desagana Diop.

Josh Howard.




In the end, Dirk will never be considered the dominant low post player that KG was. In the same way, though, KG will never be considered the offensive force that Dirk has always been.



KG's never really considered a dominant low post player. Most of his O flows through jumpers and points from running the floor well, even in his younger years. His game was similar to that of Patrick Ewing, in terms of tendencies on how he scored.

[blkroadrunners]

They are two different types of players. It's all relative. It's all about how you judge greatness. I don't think KG makes players around him perform better, and I don't think KG is the leader that everyone thinks he is. He certainly wasn't the leader of the ring team.

For his career as a PF, he's averaged 4.3 apg and a season best 6.0 apg in 02-03! He was very good at helping others on their production on the court.

[DxB]

So the fact that the Cuban spends a lot of money is what makes KG a better player?? that makes sense

Having Marbury (for two seasons), who at the time was one of the best young talents in the league, doesn't stack up to Steve Nash (Maverick's version)? At the time, Marbury and Nash had similar stats...but Marbury was like a prodigy. The guy was putting out around 9 assists and 18 ppg in his second season. At any time Marbury could go off for 35...i remember this cause he used to always do it to the Spurs. You're also forgetting Tom Gugliotta. That trio was supposed to be the next big thing.

Dirk had Michael Finley. And i don't remember calling Popeye Jones a "fag." He just wasn't as good as Tom Gugliotta.

Wait...you're the same guy who made the "LOL the mavs lost by 35 points -- 35 pt road loss > 60 pt home playoff loss," right?


Fucking talking shit. Cuban spending money doesnt make Dirk a better player you fucking moron, it does however allow him to surround him with talent and continuosly pursue a ring without too many constraints...retard.


I remember Marbury was good obviously, I also remmeber that HE WANTED TO LEAVE, and I fail to see how you put that shit on KG. He always stuck in there and did his best with allt he substandard talent around all the time, and thats what makes him great.

Dirk had michael finley and steve nash, thats 2 fucking all stars next to him, and KG DID NOT.... its plain and simple stop arguing for the sake of argument you dumbass. Bring up latrell and Cassell as a comparison to these two and I swear u can go play in traffic.


Bear in mind I'm not even siding one way or another on this, your opinion is as good as mine on whose better, you're just fucking stupid with no logic and it annoys me.

[sonic21]

overall dirk is the better player. If you're not counting 4th quarter, then KG has been better.

[TDMVPDPOY]

hey man if you dont count the championship and dpoy they are very close or dirk slightly better, dirk aint slowing down like KG atm....

you can claim KG is better defensively than dirk, but its where he plays his defense is the question or even his offense, a 7ft guarding the wing and pulling jumpers, its easy how KG gets a free pass pulling jumpers while dirk gets blame for a being a shooter then playin down low or any type of defense he is nowhere near KG on defense.

dont forget KG doesnt do shit in 4th quarters, oh wait you kg fans love to bring out that epic performance in the 4th against the lakers and kings in 03/04..he only had 1 epic season compared to dirks consistent seasons.....

[Muser]

Kg.

[endrity]

KG has the ring, and in the eyes of most people that is the ultimate reward, so whether it was because of the people surrounding him or not, he will be remembered as a better player. However, were Dirk to win a championship any time soon, even if he wasn't the Finals MVP but still an integral part of the team, this discussion shifts to the opposite side.

[Findog]

So all the players and money the Mavs have doesnt matter to you?

Dirk hasn't played with an All Star since 2004. Josh Howard was an injury replacement selection for Carmelo in 2007 I believe, but that shouldn't count. Nash was a borderline All Star with Dirk and a franchise player in Phoenix.

Bottom line: Dirk never played with an All Star in the prime of his career. He had several good players around him in Dallas, but never his own Scottie Pippen or Pau Gasol, a Robin to his Batman.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk always seems to teabag KG whenever they go head to head, but that ring puts KG on top.

[FkLA]

Dirk's teams have always been pretty deep and stacked, definitely moreso than KG's T-Wolves. I hate KG as much as the next guy but he never had much help, the one year he did with Spree and Cassell he reached the WCF. Also as far as efficiency goes, Dirk or practically anyone else for that matter wasnt on par with KG during his prime. The guy was putting up like 24 ppg, 12 rpg, 5 apg, 1-2 bg, 1-2 spg season in and season out...there was a stretch of like 5 years where he was Top 3 in MVP voting every single year including the one he ended up winning, plus he's been an all-world defender his entire career.

Right now its Dirk. For entire careers its KG, pretty clearly too in my opinion.

[ambchang]

Dirk, being a lead on a successful team trumps being a lead on a crappy team + sidekick on a successful team.

[Findog]

Dirk had more talent around him in Dallas than KG did in Minnesota, but Dirk also never had Ray Allen and Paul Pierce next to him either.

KG > Dirk career, since he has a ring as a Robin and was an all-world defender for so long, although if Dirk ever wins a title as a first or second option, he gets the nod.

Dirk > KG right now.

[resistanze]

As much as a cocksucker KG is, an MVP, DPOY and a ring is tough to ignore in terms of a career.

[JamStone]

KG has had the better career, and it's not just because of the ring. His consistent level of defense throughout his career tilts the scales easily in his favor. Even if Dirk wins a ring, I'm not sure it would change that. But KG does have a few seasons on Dirk, and Dirk is definitely the better player right now.

[blink]

kg. even if dirk gets one ring, id probably still give the nod to kg for being a player on both ends of the court

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

1>0


Even though KG had a better career, this is by far the dumbest post in this thread.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Robert Horry is better than either one btw.

[nkdlunch]

oh come on. once you include Defense, KG >> Dirk

[BUMP]

Dirk's teams have always been pretty deep and stacked, definitely moreso than KG's T-Wolves. I hate KG as much as the next guy but he never had much help, the one year he did with Spree and Cassell he reached the WCF. Also as far as efficiency goes, Dirk or practically anyone else for that matter wasnt on par with KG during his prime. The guy was putting up like 24 ppg, 12 rpg, 5 apg, 1-2 bg, 1-2 spg season in and season out...there was a stretch of like 5 years where he was Top 3 in MVP voting every single year including the one he ended up winning, plus he's been an all-world defender his entire career.

Right now its Dirk. For entire careers its KG, pretty clearly too in my opinion.

What about the year where he had Chauncey Billups and Wally Szerbiak? They got swept in the 1st round by the Mavs. You put Dirk on those same teams that KG had during his time and I guarantee you they make the playoffs every year.

KG probably has had a better career because of the ring, but give Dirk Rondo, Allen, Pierce, and a good interior defender in Perkins and they'd win a championship too

[mavsluva]

Both have had great careers. They were able to maintain a nice paying job and they both performed well at them. They'll be able to retire at a nice young age and live a nice life. (assuming they didn't blow their money)

[XFactor]

Lets not forget that Garnett had to sacrifice his minutes in Boston for the sake of winning which caused his stats to decline in the previous years. Neglecting rings, I think the big factor as stated above is defense. Dirk might be offensively better than KG but not as much as KG is better than Dirk Defensively. A one dimensional player wont cut it.

[jag]

you're just fucking stupid with no logic and it annoys me.



Wait...you're the same guy who made the "LOL the mavs lost by 35 points -- 35 pt road loss > 60 pt home playoff loss," right?

[jag]

Josh Howard.

Howard, Nash and Finley have nothing on the Celtics lineup. Even if you throw in Antawn Jamison from the 03-04 team...it still has nothing on the Celts.




KG's never really considered a dominant low post player. Most of his O flows through jumpers and points from running the floor well, even in his younger years. His game was similar to that of Patrick Ewing, in terms of tendencies on how he scored.


When KG was younger he would constantly attack the rim. His biggest battles with duncan were in the post with hooks and turnaround J's. I get what you're saying though. His length and athleticism really made him a beast down low on defense. That's mostly what I was referring to when i spoke about him dominance down low.

If KG didn't have the ring then the talk about him would be much different. And i've already said I give KG the edge...I just don't think it's a very big gap.

[DxB]

Jag is officially the dumbest nigga on this forum.

Take this advice to heart : Shutup Bitch.

[jag]

It was a serious question....




Wait...you're the same guy who made the "LOL the mavs lost by 35 points -- 35 pt road loss > 60 pt home playoff loss," right?

[DxB]

Again, Shutup bitch.

[jag]

Sure thing, brah


Alll that shit talkin by the mavs fanbase (Ghazi and related retards) about the Hornets losing by 50 points or wat not...

haha at least have the decency to keep it below 30 you sorry mafuckas! I'll take the hornets any day over the faggotry that is the Mavericks! Its not a lack of talent... its a lack of BALLS!


You got knocked the FUCK out!

[FkLA]

What about the year where he had Chauncey Billups and Wally Szerbiak? They got swept in the 1st round by the Mavs. You put Dirk on those same teams that KG had during his time and I guarantee you they make the playoffs every year.

KG probably has had a better career because of the ring, but give Dirk Rondo, Allen, Pierce, and a good interior defender in Perkins and they'd win a championship too

He had the Chauncey Billups that was on four teams in a span of like two years, not the championship Billups that we know today. It took Chauncey a while to figure it out and establish himself in Detroit. Wally lol? Nothing more than a glorified jump shooter and arguably the worst player ever to make an all-star team. A couple of years removed from his all-star season he was jumping around from team to team riding the end of the bench. Also those Twolves were basically in the playoffs every single year in a stacked Western Conference, so I dont see why youre saying that Dirk wouldve made the playoffs with KG's teams as if KG didnt lead them to that himself. The better question is could Dirk have gotten past the 1st round with those teams? Considering the teammates KG had and teams the Wolves had to face during those years I would say no.

Regardless of the ring KG has had the better career and even if Dirk were to get one KG would still be better...the man was as efficient as anyone in the league during his prime--24 ppg, 12 rpg, 5-6 apg, 1-2 bpg, 1-2 spg is plain sick than you add to that his all-world defense. Dirk's lack of defense will always haunt him, especially when comparing him to all-world defenders like KG or TD. I hate KG but he's the better player in this comparison.

[Why So Serious]

dirk has been more consistant throughout the years.

if dirk hadn't been screwed by the refs this wouldn't have been such a far fetched question.

people often forget kg was a perenial first round exist in his day with the wolves.

[JamStone]

Yeah, why are people talking about the 2001-02 Chauncey Billups as if he were the type of player back then who could be a huge difference maker? Flip Saunders didn't even really trust Billups back then, and the only reason he started getting major minutes was becauseTerrell Brandon went down. The reason Billups went to Detroit is because even after he had a breakout playoff series for the Timberwolves, Kevin McHale and Flip Saunders told Billups he was still the back-up and the starting PG position was still Terrell Brandon's.

And it's pretty heavily documented that Billups didn't become the quality player or point guard he had become until he was coached under the tutelage of Larry Brown. The 2001-02 Chauncey Billups, while becoming a better player, wasn't someone who was going to be the difference between a good team and a great team yet. And while Billups did have a breakout playoff series against Dallas that year, KG dropped 24 ppg, 19 rpg, and 5 apg in that same series.

On that same team with KG, Billups, and Wally, Rasho was the fourth best player. Gary Trent was probably the 5th or 6th best player. Hardly an example showing KG couldn't do anything with such a "stacked" team.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Yeah, why are people talking about the 2001-02 Chauncey Billups as if he were the type of player back then who could be a huge difference maker? Flip Saunders didn't even really trust Billups back then, and the only reason he started getting major minutes was becauseTerrell Brandon went down. The reason Billups went to Detroit is because even after he had a breakout playoff series for the Timberwolves, Kevin McHale and Flip Saunders told Billups he was still the back-up and the starting PG position was still Terrell Brandon's.

And it's pretty heavily documented that Billups didn't become the quality player or point guard he had become until he was coached under the tutelage of Larry Brown. The 2001-02 Chauncey Billups, while becoming a better player, wasn't someone who was going to be the difference between a good team and a great team yet. And while Billups did have a breakout playoff series against Dallas that year, KG dropped 24 ppg, 19 rpg, and 5 apg in that same series.

On that same team with KG, Billups, and Wally, Rasho was the fourth best player. Gary Trent was probably the 5th or 6th best player. Hardly an example showing KG couldn't do anything with such a "stacked" team.

the difference would be, KG had young talent around him, too bad he didnt let them stick by till understand the system or groom to be better players....

[XFactor]

dirk has been more consistant throughout the years.

if dirk hadn't been screwed by the refs this wouldn't have been such a far fetched question.

people often forget kg was a perenial first round exist in his day with the wolves.

Since when? Kevin Garnett is the only player in NBA History to average 20ppg 10rbpg 4apg for 9 straight seasons....

[JamStone]

the difference would be, KG had young talent around him, too bad he didnt let them stick by till understand the system or groom to be better players....

Young talent beyond Chauncey and Wally? Like Loren Woods and Will Avery?

KG's "young talent around him" were the second and third best players on the team. Around the same time, the talent Dirk had around him were all stars in the primes of their career. I don't see your point.

[blkroadrunners]

Howard, Nash and Finley have nothing on the Celtics lineup. Even if you throw in Antawn Jamison from the 03-04 team...it still has nothing on the Celts.

I agree that players like Paul Pierce and Ray Allen don't compare to Josh Howard, but Josh Howard was an All-Star, and he's still a vital player to the Mavs (although he's been screwed over by injuries). Plus, players like Nash and Jamison were still star players - it just one of the big flaws in that 03-04 lineup was chemistry, and ever since they left, they were able to exploit what they were truely capable of.

[BUMP]

He had the Chauncey Billups that was on four teams in a span of like two years, not the championship Billups that we know today. It took Chauncey a while to figure it out and establish himself in Detroit. Wally lol? Nothing more than a glorified jump shooter and arguably the worst player ever to make an all-star team. A couple of years removed from his all-star season he was jumping around from team to team riding the end of the bench. Also those Twolves were basically in the playoffs every single year in a stacked Western Conference, so I dont see why youre saying that Dirk wouldve made the playoffs with KG's teams as if KG didnt lead them to that himself. The better question is could Dirk have gotten past the 1st round with those teams? Considering the teammates KG had and teams the Wolves had to face during those years I would say no.

Regardless of the ring KG has had the better career and even if Dirk were to get one KG would still be better...the man was as efficient as anyone in the league during his prime--24 ppg, 12 rpg, 5-6 apg, 1-2 bpg, 1-2 spg is plain sick than you add to that his all-world defense. Dirk's lack of defense will always haunt him, especially when comparing him to all-world defenders like KG or TD. I hate KG but he's the better player in this comparison.

They were in the playoffs every year? :lol

You might wanna do a little research first

[Mavs_man_41]

:lmao Lot's of anger in this thread by some of you fatass san antonio school system protegies

[Mavs_man_41]

FkLA, DxB, and the other retard are all shitty versions of what used to be considered a troll around here IMO

[badfish22]

KG never got his team to the finals as the first option.
Dirk did.

I think Dirk has had more great years than KG has as well.

But I'm probably the most biased person on the earth for this topic. One is my favorite player and the other is my most hated.

[FkLA]

They were in the playoffs every year? :lol

You might wanna do a little research first

Practically every year, they had 8 consecutive playoff appearances which culminated in the WCF appearance...that was followed by a year filled with injuries to Cassell and the whole "I have to feed my family" thing with Spree. Than the final one in Minnesota without Spree that led to KG demanding out. So 8 out of 10 years they were in the playoffs.

YOU might wanna do a little research bro.

[Killakobe81]

I'll say KG so far ...
Both have MVP's and both have been to the Finals ...and to be honest I thin dirk probaly played better in the Finals ...but the question really is what are people in this forum about? Winning or stats, hype and potential and the mythical arguments about if you swap him with him crap?
Bottom line is in all 4 major sports my favorite players since 1980 only a few of my all time favorite players have NOT won a title.
Here is my list: (*next to the non title winners)
NBA - Kobe, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Shawn Kemp*, Gary Payton, Nique, Worthy Barkley* Bird (after 87 hated him BEFORE that) Reggie miller*, Robert Horry, Duncan and Wade - Only 3 havent won at least ONE title
NFL - Marino*, Manning LT (OG), LT2*, Marshall faulk, the woodsons (Darren & Rod), Ray-ray Lewis, Emmitt,Troy, Mike Irvin, Marcus Allen, Shannon Sharpe, Charles Haley, Mike Singletary, Phil simms Ed reed, Reggie wayne (the U baby!) , Reggie white, Randy moss Charles Woodson* and Demarcus Ware* (again only 3 havent won a title)
NHL - Mario, Jagr, Crosby, Malkin, modano Roy
MLB- Griffey*, Arod, Howard, Rollins, Gooden, straw, Schilling, Manny Papi Vlad

Point is ...I dont care what stats you put up or who you played with but to be the best you have to win ... YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME that's it (shout out 2 Herm).
The very best find a way to get to a title ...even if they need help like KG did. Doesnt matter ...the ring is the thing! ANYtime guys have similar stats I will always pick the guy with the ring over the other ... titles matter most ...

and most of these guys won in college (if they went) as well ...

[mogrovejo]

Some of you should seek medical help. I'm serious. KG had Rasho, just like Duncan? I mean, that's some serious illness.


[quote=Findog;3970366]Dirk had more talent around him in Dallas than KG did in Minnesota, but Dirk also never had Ray Allen and Paul Pierce next to him either.

KG > Dirk career, since he has a ring as a Robin and was an all-world defender for so long, although if Dirk ever wins a title as a first or second option, he gets the nod.quote]

What do you mean by having a ring as a Robin?

----------------


This is only a discussion because the casual fan overrates scoring. Because scoring is basically the only aspect in the game where Dirk and Garnett are in the same tier. Other than that, it's not even close.

[Pero]

This is only a discussion because the casual fan overrates scoring. Because scoring is basically the only aspect in the game where Dirk and Garnett are in the same tier. Other than that, it's not even close.

Oh come on, Garnett isn't even close to Dirk in scoring.

[mystargtr34]

The ring isn't what puts KG on top of Dirk ... It's the rebounding, passing and all NBA defense .. Both have been amazing players, and Dirk has been better since about 2007.. But from 1998 to 2005 KG was a notch above Dirk

[4>0rings]

Oh come on, Garnett isn't even close to Dirk in scoring.:rolleyes

Career

PPG

Dirka - 22.8ppg

KG - 20ppg

[Pero]

:rolleyes

Career

PPG

Dirka - 22.8ppg

KG - 20ppg

Please, Dirk could go off for 30-40 pts any given game, KG can't. Dirk had three seasons of scoring at about 26 pts per game. KG had one season of scoring 24 ppg.

[mogrovejo]

In 07/08 Garnett was still much better than Nowitzki. Last season he was injured and only this one Nowitzki is playing at a higher level, at least so far.

[ginobili's bald spot]

The ring isn't what puts KG on top of Dirk ... It's the rebounding, passing and all NBA defense .. Both have been amazing players, and Dirk has been better since about 2007.. But from 1998 to 2005 KG was a notch above Dirk



This.

KG is a douche but he's had the better career thus far.

[spursncowboys]

KG because he's not hanging out on the perimeter. They both are terrible all stars to build a team around.

[Andrew Bynum]

KG wouldn't even have a ring if it wasn't for my grampa knees. Well, at least according to lakerfan.

[spursncowboys]

This.

KG is a douche but he's had the better career thus far.
How can ginobili's bald spot be a laker fan? Someone should make a troll of the rest of ginobili's head of lettuce. Back in the day when he had it long, almost mullet worthy.

[ginobili's bald spot]

KG because he's not hanging out on the perimeter.

lol apparently you haven't watched him in a long time. That's exactly what he does.

[spursncowboys]

Just wait til manu grows his hair euro trash again and does the comb over.

[Pero]

I guess you missed the title of this thread and the meaning of average.

I guess I did. :lol.

[endrity]

I concede that KG might have a better career.

Also he is a better team and one-on-one defender!

He is also a much better offensive rebounder.
But before you go on making other claims please look at some more of the games. Dirk has always been a very good defensive rebounder, right around 8-9, even now that the Mavs have been an elite rebounding team with a lot of good rebounders he still gets his. He'll never get the offensive rebounds necessary to propel him to the top of the rebounders list because he doesn't play close enough to the basket, but given what he contributes with his offense I am fine with it. Plus, Dirk has had multiple games in the playoffs with crazy rebounding numbers, so while KG is better it's not a huge difference by any chance.

Also, it is claimed here that KG is a much better passer. And it's true that in his Minny days KG had some seasons with about 5 assists per game. But he certainly was no Webber or Divac on the post, it came mostly to the fact that he had the ball quite a bit in his hands. Now, neither is Dirk a Webber or a Divac, but if you see him like I do every game, you'll not fail to notice that Dirk has developed into an excellent, I repeat excellent, passer of the ball. Double teams not only fail to trouble him, he often pick some great passes especially to the other big man playing with him. In case you forgot Spurs fans, please look at the 09 playoffs again, and see how well he dealt with the crazy double teaming that the Spurs were doing to him. Dirk's role in the offense has never been to be a distributor, when he catches the ball he has to score, but passing is an area where he has improved massively, much more than defense, from the start of his career. I am not sure at all KG is a better passer at this point to be honest.

[Mal]

Of course KG. It`s not his fault that McHale sucked as GM

[endrity]

And it's not Dirk's fault that he never played with a legit All-Star in his prime, let alone two or three.

[Mavs_man_41]

my life careeer > the op's

[Jacob1983]

The whole ring argument is a fail if you ask me. So if a player has a ring, then you will go with that player being the better player 100 percent of the time? So Lindsey Hunter is a better player than Karl Malone? Darko Milicic is a better player than Patrick Ewing? Glen Rice better than Reggie Miller? KG's teams had sucked ass in the playoffs before he got his ticket to the Celtics. He only got the Wolves out of the first round one time while he played for them. Dirk has gotten the Mavs out of the first round like 6 times and has gotten to the WCF twice and the Finals once. Dirk's got a better PPG average in the playoffs than KG too.

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL..you do realize you just used your own hated logic in your own argument, right?..

you said that rings(success) shouldn't measure a player's worth, but then your argument was that Dirk's teams made it deeper into the playoffs than KG's teams(success)..

Garnett's ring doesn't even have to count in this argument IMO..I know most people hate him(not me), but KG was a top-tier player during his prime, along with Shaq-Duncan-Kobe IMO..

While Dirk is a great player in his own regard and the #5 best player of this decade, KG was levels above him as a defender, rebounder and passer..Dirk was the better scorer..none of that is arguable..

THEN you can bring in the ring for the argument..Garnett WAS the best player on that team, he was clearly the leader of the team, and he led one of the best transformations of a franchise that you'll see(obviously with some help)..yes, Pierce-Allen and the rest of the Celtics is better than anything Dirk has ever had..that doesn't change the aspects that KG is better at..

to be fair, Dirk has been better than KG the last 2 years..also, Dirk has never had a championship-level supporting cast, and he does get treated unfairly be many people..saying KG was better doesn't diminish Dirk in any way..

[endrity]

KG is not a better passer, and his difference in rebounding isn't as great as people make it out to be!

[XFactor]

I'll say KG so far ...
Both have MVP's and both have been to the Finals ...and to be honest I thin dirk probaly played better in the Finals ...but the question really is what are people in this forum about? Winning or stats, hype and potential and the mythical arguments about if you swap him with him crap?
Bottom line is in all 4 major sports my favorite players since 1980 only a few of my all time favorite players have NOT won a title.
Here is my list: (*next to the non title winners)
NBA - Kobe, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Shawn Kemp*, Gary Payton, Nique, Worthy Barkley* Bird (after 87 hated him BEFORE that) Reggie miller*, Robert Horry, Duncan and Wade - Only 3 havent won at least ONE title
NFL - Marino*, Manning LT (OG), LT2*, Marshall faulk, the woodsons (Darren & Rod), Ray-ray Lewis, Emmitt,Troy, Mike Irvin, Marcus Allen, Shannon Sharpe, Charles Haley, Mike Singletary, Phil simms Ed reed, Reggie wayne (the U baby!) , Reggie white, Randy moss Charles Woodson* and Demarcus Ware* (again only 3 havent won a title)
NHL - Mario, Jagr, Crosby, Malkin, modano Roy
MLB- Griffey*, Arod, Howard, Rollins, Gooden, straw, Schilling, Manny Papi Vlad

Point is ...I dont care what stats you put up or who you played with but to be the best you have to win ... YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME that's it (shout out 2 Herm).
The very best find a way to get to a title ...even if they need help like KG did. Doesnt matter ...the ring is the thing! ANYtime guys have similar stats I will always pick the guy with the ring over the other ... titles matter most ...

and most of these guys won in college (if they went) as well ...

I agree with some of what you say but I'm usually a stat guy why? Because MVPs and Rings are given to the best team not necessarily the best player.

If you have a great team then you will win the title, and if the team is really good they will have the best record in the NBA and best player on that team is going to get the MVP.

Kobe before he won his first ring as the first option was still regarded as the best player in the NBA because of his stats.

If a guy for example averaged 40ppg 20rbpg 10apg 10bpg and was on the worst team in the NBA for all his career but continued to put up those numbers, then he would definitely be the best player to ever the play of the game even if he never won a ring or got into the playoffs, is that true in the media's eyes probably not which I find sad.

There are obviously other important things that are not included in stats which includes leadership, fundamentals etc that are not usually discussed. Like I always say, a guy that grabs 20 rebounds per game and block 5bpg may be the defensive player of the year but if he lets his opponent drop 40 on him every night whats the point of DPOY?

[mogrovejo]

KG is not a better passer, and his difference in rebounding isn't as great as people make it out to be!

Nowitzki:

TR% - 13.2%
Asst% - 13.0%

Garnett:


TR% - 17.1%
Asst% - 20.4%

To put it simply, Dirk was always a sub-par rebounder for his position. Garnett was one of the best rebounders ever in the history of the league (he lead the league in DR% for 4 years).

Same for passing. Garnett was one of the best big man passers ever, his numbers are at the level of Webber (in fact, higher). Impossible to find a "big man" with this kind of numbers if you exclude guys like Larry Bird or LeBron James. Nowitzki, well, he isn't a black-hole, but he's pedestrian.

The defence is even harder to compare, once again 2 completely different planets.

The differences aren't "great" or "small" or whatever. They're so freaking gigantic it doesn't even make sense to compare.

Scoring, that's all. Other contributions, just forget it.

[endrity]

Well the reason you say that is because you assume that assist is actually a good evidence of passing ability. In order to prove to you how wrong that is, look at a guy like Gasol who is widely considered the best passing big man today yet has average assist numbers throughout his career. Not needing to go through a big discussion of how assists are credited, given some of the peculiarities it's fair to say that at least for big men they are not a good indicator of passing ability. As I said in my previous post where I explained this, KG's highest assist seasons came in Minny when he had the ball all the time, and even random passes were often considered assists. Today in Boston, where he actually allows the guards to do their job, he has marginal assists number, if that.

If you don't believe me about Dirk's passing ability ask Spur fan to tell you what he did to their team in the playoffs. He hardly missed a pass in 5 games, and was finding people open all the time. Even the craziest double teams failed to trouble him. I am fully convinced on this, Dirk has developed into an absolutely excellent passer for a big man.

As for rebounding I also explained it, Dirk has been nowhere close to below average, he's been well above. His numbers are not in the top 5 or 10 rebounders in the league because he doesn't get the extra 2-3 offensive rebounds due to him playing not very close to the basket.

And before we go on to say that Dirk has just scoring on his side, and nothing else, let's not forget that it's player like Dirk and Durant and Melo and Wade that become franchise players, not the Ben Wallaces and J.Noahs of the world. The first job on the the list of an elite player is to be an elite scorer, someone who changes the way other teams approach the game because of the pressure he puts on them. If your franchise player can't be a go-to guy to begin with than he isn't a franchise player either.

Again, having said all of that I can see how some people can still say KG has a better career. He might, but that's not because he is a much better passer or rebounder than Dirk was.

[mogrovejo]

As for rebounding I also explained it, Dirk has been nowhere close to below average, he's been well above. His numbers are not in the top 5 or 10 rebounders in the league because he doesn't get the extra 2-3 offensive rebounds due to him playing not very close to the basket.Use rebounding rates, man. Even for defensive rebounding rate, Dirk is well bellow KG. Same for assists. Raw numbers don't work. When KG moved to Boston his assists rate actually increased from his last season in Minny. We run a big part of our offence through him. He's that good.

[JamStone]

I think discrediting KG's passing ability is a bit much. There have been plenty of big men who have had the ball in their hands all the time, had the offense run through them, but still couldn't get assists just by having the ball all the time. Look at guys like Elton Brand, Chris Bosh, Al Jefferson. Why aren't they dropping 4+ apg. Even Dirk. The notion that KG got all those assists because he had the ball in his hands all the time, well so has Dirk. Even from the period after Nash and before Kidd where the offense was heavily run through him, not one season, not once did Dirk average 4 assists per game. The logic fails. Even when KG was on lottery teams his last few seasons in Minnesota and had shitty teammates, he was still dropping 4 assists per game. Even when Terrell Brandon was the point guard and putting up 8 assists per game and had the ball in his hand a lot, KG was dropping 5 assists per game.

I think it's a weak argument to say KG isn't that great of a passer because it was mostly due to having the ball in his hands all the time. Well, why hasn't Dirk averaged 4 apg even once in his career?

Dirk might be a pretty good passer for a PF, but he's not better than KG. It's surprising to hear and argument trying to discredit KG's passing ability. That's one of the things KG shouldn't be questioned on. No, he's not a Chris Webber caliber passer. But, he's very clearly one of the better passers for a big man and it's not just about having the ball in his hands all the time.

[diego]

player I can see how people would argue (though I dont agree), but career its KG, absolutely no question

also, people are discrediting KG's ring because he had great teammates... well that celtic team was not only a champ, it was also one of the best defensive teams of all time. are ray allen and paul pierce horrible defenders? no. but nobody considers them all time defensive greats (rondo and perkins may develop reps as great defenders, but I dont think they'll reach all time great status, rondo maybe). The bulk of that credit has to go to KG, even if his DPOY shows that duncan got robbed several times.

finally, Im pretty sure people are forgetting mavs players, I don't mean all time greats or even all stars but compared to the wolves... its not even close. Finley was all-nba a couple seasons, outside of the celtics in 07/08, has garnett ever had an all-nba teammate? but the difference isnt there anyway, its at the end of the bench... has there ever been a "fantasy five" wolves team? yeah, thought not...

[Killakobe81]

LOL..you do realize you just used your own hated logic in your own argument, right?..

you said that rings(success) shouldn't measure a player's worth, but then your argument was that Dirk's teams made it deeper into the playoffs than KG's teams(success)..

Garnett's ring doesn't even have to count in this argument IMO..I know most people hate him(not me), but KG was a top-tier player during his prime, along with Shaq-Duncan-Kobe IMO..

While Dirk is a great player in his own regard and the #5 best player of this decade, KG was levels above him as a defender, rebounder and passer..Dirk was the better scorer..none of that is arguable..

THEN you can bring in the ring for the argument..Garnett WAS the best player on that team, he was clearly the leader of the team, and he led one of the best transformations of a franchise that you'll see(obviously with some help)..yes, Pierce-Allen and the rest of the Celtics is better than anything Dirk has ever had..that doesn't change the aspects that KG is better at..

to be fair, Dirk has been better than KG the last 2 years..also, Dirk has never had a championship-level supporting cast, and he does get treated unfairly be many people..saying KG was better doesn't diminish Dirk in any way..

I think this is one of the first times i agree with harlem heat ESPECIALLY the part that choosing KG doesnt mean we disrespect dirk these threads (Player X vs. Player Y) always become heathed and trashing of the player not chosen ...both are great...

But those that discount rings are funny 2 me because some of you use that in the Kobe hasn't won without shaq stuff ...comical! now that Lebron doesnt have one (some of you) say he doesnt have the cast ...rings matter to be considered the BEST you HAVE to have one ...if not then I can argue Malone and barkley as better players than Tim duncan ...because they have stats to support this (not PER maybe) but scoring and rebounding ...and assists ...

Rings seperate the great from the all-timers IMHO ...withoiut the rings NO WAY ANYOne could make the argument Russell is even in the same "ballpark" as wilt ...but titles matter most ...