<Insert Big Trade Proposal Here>

[Marcus Bryant]

Time for a move. No time to waste. The franchise has shown that they are loyal to the ring, so we need to make a move. Anyone outside of TD is on the block, IMHO.

So what say you?

[Chieflion]

I fucking agree.

[fotan2]

phil jackson for pop

[timtonymanu]

Keep Duncan, Hill, Manu, Blair, and Mason.

Trade everybody else.

[ezau]

I agree, but damn, everybody was so high we made a high-profile offseason move and this is all we get? It's been a good run but it's safe to say that it's over

[ace3g]

I'd say either trade Parker for a pass first PG or make a deal involving Mason, Bonner, Finley, Dice for a big man / PG

that are our 2 needs: pass first PG and Big man that can score/play defense

[slick'81]

id trade tony or manu if it made us better

[Spurs Brazil]

We'll be already better if we waive Jefferson and Dice

[slick'81]

if it was possible id trade Jefferson yesterday

[ezau]

Jefferson needs to go and Dice too

[urunobili]

I... dunno.. can't think... I'm stunned... :depressed

[SpursRulez4eVeR]

RJ+bogans for Butler

[ace3g]

another thing is that coming out of halftime we have been flat almost every game

[Spursmania]

I... dunno.. can't think... I'm stunned... :depressed

Me too:(

[hsxvvd]

Jefferson + Cash for a conditional future 2nd rounder.

[HarlemHeat37]

Jefferson wasn't even close to the reason we lost tonight..shit, the guy has sucked this year, but he was far from the reason we lost to an average Rockets team..

The offense has sucked in general tonight, but allowing the 16th ranked offense in the NBA to shoot 55% is beyond disgusting..

[spurs1990]

Parker and Jefferson make $26 mill.

Surely there's a ton of players we can get for either or both.

We just need to shake things up for the sake of it.

[superjames1992]

Dice for Gasol.

Only in dreamland.

[z0sa]

Manu is our most valuable chip until the trade deadline.

I haven't seen Dyess make one cut for an open layup this entire season or take a load off of Tim, so he's officially expendable.

Maybe we could combine one of these with the usual Finley/Bonner crew.

[slick'81]

wait is the game over? I'm listening to the radio. It's 111-105 right now according to woai.
107-113

[Stringer_Bell]

id trade tony or manu if it made us better

Trading Manu = not even a playoff team in the west. Him and TD are the only ones I feel sorry for in losses, the rest of the team just isn't a reflection the the dollar signs on the floor at the end of the game. I was thinking of our pay scale vs the rockets pay scale and couldn't help but be disgusted at the waste of money on OUR side of the floor.

Someone was joking around once and said Everyone except the Big 3 for the Houston Rockets. It's not sounding like such a bad idea, except these days I'd prolly give them TP too. :(

[024]

manu is the only movable piece currently. his contract is expiring and he will bring a veteran presence to a young team. i really don't know what trade would make the spurs better though. i do agree that only td should be safe from trade. pathetic effort all around.

[Slinkyman]

Trading Manu = not even a playoff team in the west. Him and TD are the only ones I feel sorry for in losses, the rest of the team just isn't a reflection the the dollar signs on the floor at the end of the game. I was thinking of our pay scale vs the rockets pay scale and couldn't help but be disgusted at the waste of money on OUR side of the floor.

Someone was joking around once and said Everyone except the Big 3 for the Houston Rockets. It's not sounding like such a bad idea, except these days I'd prolly give them TP too. :(

Trading Manu = not even a playoff team?

1st, Hypothetically if we traded Manu we'd get someone back in return that was better, otherwise why would we make the trade? IE Andre Iguldala.

2nd, with manu we're probably not a playoff team. If we do make the playoffs it's another 1st round exit.

[Marcus Bryant]

Manu is not who we once knew.

TP....damn. A TP at full strength would mean at least +4 in wins, IMO.

As for the rest, well, this is why championships aren't won on paper.

[Josepatches_]

Trade Tony or fire Pop.

Our basketball suck.And that's not Jefferson or Dice's fault.

We only play team basketball when Manu is the PG.

And please TD in the POST!!! If he is one of the best players of the league in the post,maybe the best,it's FUCKING stupid he has to play pick & roll most of the plays.
How many times do you see Shaq or Howard in the top of the key?? If Parker cant score without a screen he will have to shoot less but Duncan has to be where he is one of the best,not like he was only a big wall.

[edgar]

Guys WTF calm down its only January! lmao haha where are all you "its only <insert month here> naggers? But yea I agree Dice, Bonner, Finley and Parker need to go. Ginobili, Duncan, Jefferson, Hill, Blair, Mason need to stay. Once Parker is gone, Jefferson will break out knowing he is not a 4th option. He looks lost because he is not involved in the offense. Ginobili was frustrated as theres no one on the team matching his dedication and effort. Jamison would be nice to bring in.

[phxspurfan]

So whos gonna win it all this year?


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Cleveland.

[z0sa]

I was definitely part of the It's Only December crew. But we're closer to February than December now, and the same mistakes and tendencies are there.

[it's me]

Trade fucking Manu....... he plays only first halves and his body is weaker than RJ balls.

[gospursgojas]

Keep Tim, Blair, Hill. Trade whoever else.

Make a run at Bosh

[MaNu4Tres]

Trade fucking Manu....... he plays only first halves and his body is weaker than RJ balls.

RJ has no balls. Manu does.

[200 miles]

securing additional 1st-round picks is the way to go

[superjames1992]

So whos gonna win it all this year?


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Cleveland.
Los Angeles.

[Pauleta14]

I would take ANYBODY for Jeffersson!!!!!

This just can't be worse... (financialy and on the court)

[edgar]

Manu is the only player on our team who can make plays for everyone! Are you fuckn kidding me! You release him you allow parker to Brick our way out of the playoffs. Idiot! If anyone needs to be traded is ball hog parker

[GooberNuts]

Normally I'd say we still have time to gel, but the team hasn't shown any improvement since last month, so not feeling too optimistic now.

However, if we shake up the team even more before the deadline, I still don't think we have a shot at winning it this year - we already had trouble incorporating the new guys from the offseason, so it'd be worse trying to get the chemistry right midway through the season.

Right now, the team is stuck. We are not playing well enough to be contenders - we are merely just a decent team in the middle of the pack come playoff time. The trick is how are we going to try to rebuild? Do we blow it all up now and see what we can get and hope for a better season next year? Tough situation.

I'll be all too glad to eat my words if they do start playing better, but i dont see that happening anytime soon...

[gospursgojas]

So whos gonna win it all this year?


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Cleveland.

No way cleveland wins it. Lebron doesnt have the will yet (if ever).

God, please dont let shaq get his 5th before Tim. I would rather Kobe get it first

[Brazil]

we need to blame pop for once instead of wanting trading our guys

maybe it's time to fire pop

[Pauleta14]

It would be smart from the FO to try to get some first round picks, we can't gamble for ever on 2nd round pick...

[timtonymanu]

Untouchables:
Tim - still got it.
Hill and Blair - future of the team

Maybe:
Manu - if he plays at a decent level all season, then resign him.
TP - if his body continues to regress, then he needs to go.
Malik and Ian - Only if the Spurs can't get a better player in return or if their potential is wasted.
Mason - if there are no better options out there then keep him.
Bonner - if he returns to the player he was before he was hurt, then keep him. he's good for spot minutes.

Don't resign
Bogans - He's not a long term Spur.
Ratliff - too old
Finley - same as Theo.


GTFO
Dick and Dice - offseason busts.

[DPG21920]

What a fickle fan base the Spurs have.

[z0sa]

^As sad as it is, it's true. The scoring droughts for such a potent offensive team are the most direct implication of faulty coaching.

[z0sa]

What a fickle fan base the Spurs have.

The Spurs have 100% underachieved this season.

[DPG21920]

The Spurs have 100% underachieved this season.

What does that have to do with the fan base being fickle? Nothing is done with 100% certainty. All you can ask for from the team you root for is that they try and win.

They have done that. They made moves that made sense and that they thought could give them the best shot to win. They spent money and put out a team that could compete.

So far it has not worked out, but that does not mean fans should bitch and moan like a bunch of spoiled brats. Sometimes things don't work out, but you take it like a man and move forward. There is nothing wrong with wanting improvements, but there is something wrong with crying like little malcontents and whining over moves that everyone would have made. Especially when those moves were made with the best of intentions.

Fickle fan base.

[Stringer_Bell]

What a fickle fan base the Spurs have.

I always thought the same thing when I'd see the meltdown threads, but after the recent back 2 back losses against obviously inferior teams (on paper at least) I couldn't help but start wondering if there really is a problem and I'm just in denial.

But yea, Manu is the only movable piece that never gives up, and the only reason why I haven't shit on the Spurs during the games. Trading him is no promise that we can turn it around...and if he's gone and we're still struggling, we don't have Manu's grit and heart to fall back on to at least give us (or maybe just me?) hope.

I wouldn't mind trimming the fat from the roster and getting a defensive big to anchor us. If nothing else, the Wizards gotta be talking to the Spurs at this point for SOMETHING...give them TP, cuz once Timmy is gone he doesn't wanna "baby sit" on a non-contender. Send his ass to the Wizards before he leaves on his own so he can see how good he had it in SA.

[z0sa]

Fickle fan base.

You expect the fanbase to be "constant and loyal in their affections" (definition of fickle) when their team is, by some's count, vastly underachieving?

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol at the oxymorons on this thread not willing to trade away parker, gino or whoever else not name td, blair, ghill

stop fkn living in the past with the 4rings..

since our last ring, pop and co hasnt delivered and found a way to beat smallball,

fck this loyalty bs you clowns in here always bring up....

[DPG21920]

There is absolutely no denying the team has a problem. That does not change the fact the fans are fickle.

[z0sa]

There is absolutely no denying the team has a problem. That does not change the fact the fans are fickle.

Fickle does not accurately describe our reaction.

[jag]

that are our 2 needs: pass first PG and Big man that can score/play defense

:lol what a joke

[DPG21920]

You expect the fanbase to be "constant and loyal in their affections" (definition of fickle) when their team is, by some's count, vastly underachieving?

Read the whole post. Yes, I do expect that because the FO tried to win. It does not always happen. What do you want them to do? What else can they do besides what they have done until this point? You expect them to just be able to constantly trade for players that can win them a title every 3 months?

[Chomag]

where are all he homers now that were calling us rearded when we were saying his all season?

[Ice009]

phil jackson for pop

You know those years Phil Jackson has taken off from coaching have helped him re-energize. I really don't think he is much better than Pop. Pop could be burnt out. Pop might just need a break from it all. He doesn't seem like the same Pop aggression wise.

Same with the Bulls and Jordan. I really don't think they win 8 straight if Jordan didn't take a break from basketball.

[DPG21920]

Fickle does not accurately describe our reaction.

It describes it perfectly. All of the F this team and F this player shows that.

[z0sa]

Read the whole post. Yes, I do expect that because the FO tried to win. It does not always happen. What do you want them to do? What else can they do besides what they have done until this point? You expect them to just be able to constantly trade for players that can win them a title every 3 months?

Here's your problem: you act like the Spurs have nothing to do with the Spurs' problems.

[z0sa]

It describes it perfectly. All of the F this team and F this player shows that.

If you want to name names, do it. Don't label a whole fanbase.

[DPG21920]

Point is, it is not right to do what Spurs fans do given the circumstances. The asked the FO to make moves to try and win, and they did that. That should be enough to keep fans from completely shitting on them.

Now give them time to rectify the situation.

[badfish22]

I would give you JJ Barea for a plate of enchiladas from a good SA restaurant.

[DPG21920]

Here's your problem: you act like the Spurs have nothing to do with the Spurs' problems.


Where did I say that and what does that have to do with anything? One question: Did the FO make moves where a reasonable person could conclude they were trying to win?

[DPG21920]

If you want to name names, do it. Don't label a whole fanbase.

Don't play semantics. Do I obviously mean every single fan? No, but the majority of people on here are fickle.

[Ice009]

No way cleveland wins it. Lebron doesnt have the will yet (if ever).

God, please dont let shaq get his 5th before Tim. I would rather Kobe get it first

Why would you rather Kobe win it?

[benefactor]

What does that have to do with the fan base being fickle? Nothing is done with 100% certainty. All you can ask for from the team you root for is that they try and win.

They have done that. They made moves that made sense and that they thought could give them the best shot to win. They spent money and put out a team that could compete.

So far it has not worked out, but that does not mean fans should bitch and moan like a bunch of spoiled brats. Sometimes things don't work out, but you take it like a man and move forward. There is nothing wrong with wanting improvements, but there is something wrong with crying like little malcontents and whining over moves that everyone would have made. Especially when those moves were made with the best of intentions.

Fickle fan base.
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w320/fishintimber/applause.gif

[Pauleta14]

What does that have to do with the fan base being fickle? Nothing is done with 100% certainty. All you can ask for from the team you root for is that they try and win.

They have done that. They made moves that made sense and that they thought could give them the best shot to win. They spent money and put out a team that could compete.

So far it has not worked out, but that does not mean fans should bitch and moan like a bunch of spoiled brats. Sometimes things don't work out, but you take it like a man and move forward. There is nothing wrong with wanting improvements, but there is something wrong with crying like little malcontents and whining over moves that everyone would have made. Especially when those moves were made with the best of intentions.

Fickle fan base.


This is the first time I realise this is over!
Not only because of tonight game, but there are SO MANY reasons that you have to be blind to think there will some kind a miracle that, not only would make the team plays well (that still could happen), but also give two of our stars a "fresh body" (:lol sorry, I lack of voccab)!!!

You can't deny that we are going nowhere without a great Tony and a great Manu... both of them are far from being healthy, and I don't see any reasons they would feel better playing more (tough) games through the season...

[jag]

I love the geniuses in here who want to deal parker. The guy puts up 22 pts and 10 dimes in a loss, so what the Spurs really need is a pass-first point guard??

It's not the piss poor interior defense, it's the lack of a pass-first point guard. Now i get it.

[Spursox]

Chris Paul for Tony Parker.....

[z0sa]

Point is, it is not right to do what Spurs fans do given the circumstances. The asked the FO to make moves to try and win, and they did that. That should be enough to keep fans from completely shitting on them.

Now give them time to rectify the situation.

I agree that we shouldn't "shit on them." But I'm honestly not seeing any of our normal (ie 'decent') posters melting down more than usual.

It's not because most are fickle (though spoiled would be slightly more accurate) - It's just discouraging to lose like we are losing.

Giving up double digit leads, not stopping teams we surely can in any kind of consistent manner, and going through confusing scoring droughts despite the most gifted offensive Spurs team ever.

Fickle was the December lameness. Now, we're a few games away from the RRT and a brutal ending stretch of schedule, with no marked and consistent improvement, especially on D, since training camp IMO.

[Ice009]

Where did I say that and what does that have to do with anything? One question: Did the FO make moves where a reasonable person could conclude they were trying to win?

I said trade Jefferson for Jackson two months ago or if not Jefferson trade expirings for Jackson.

How long do the Spurs want before they get it?

[My Fault]

Wow I can't believe how pathetic some Spurs fans can be.... Trade Manu? All of you were ready to blow him after the OKC win and now he needs to go? Yes, the Spurs have problems and are not looking up to championship level but atleast have some sense in the ideas thrown out there. Parker needs to be sat until he is healthy no doubt about that. Mason while brings a scoring punch at times needs to be packaged in a trade with Ian. Bowen is old and would not help in any way and people need to let go. The problem is in the paint and the Spurs need a big to help in that area.

[jag]

Chris Paul for Tony Parker.....

I wish i could slap you.

[DPG21920]

I agree that it is incredibly disheartening, but if you keep things in perspective, no matter how bad the outcome, I applaud what the Spurs did. Am I happy it is not working out? Absolutely not. But I understood that it was a possibility and even though I am surprised at how bad it is right now, I still think the Spurs took the right steps.

I will question things, but I won't be a spoiled fan that whines to the point where it is embarrassing.

[Pauleta14]

I love the geniuses in here who want to deal parker. The guy puts up 22 pts and 10 dimes in a loss, so what the Spurs really need is a pass-first point guard??

It's not the piss poor interior defense, it's the lack of a pass-first point guard. Now i get it.


Thank you!

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, I'm real "fickle.". I've been with this team since '75 you little douche. When you were cheering for the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, and Rockets I was with this team that was always going to relocate. Fuck you you fucking poser. Don't tell me I'm not a real fan. You don't know what it's like to me the fan of a team that doesn't have a legit title shot. I do.

Now bring me some coffee.

[TD 21]

It describes it perfectly. All of the F this team and F this player shows that.

Fickle isn't the word for it, another F word is...(no, not that F-word, get your mind out of the gutter), I'm talking about frustration. Frustration because Spurs fans have been treated to and spoiled to an unparalleled run of consistency and success in the Duncan era and because of the fact that it looked like, on paper, this team had more talent than any other Spurs team in said era. So when people see them looking like arguably the worst team of the era, they (rightfully so) become frustrated. The truth is most fans (not all) are inherently fickle. And when I say "most fans", I mean across sports.

[DPG21920]

Yeah, I'm real "fickle.". I've been with this team since '75 you little douche. When you were cheering for the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, and Rockets I was with this team that was always going to relocate. Fuck you you fucking poser. Don't tell me I'm not a real fan. You don't know what it's like to me the fan of a team that doesn't have a legit title shot. I do.

Now bring me some coffee.

Only someone self conscious would think I was referring to them when I was not. Just so happens I posted it in this thread because some of the other posts.

LOL at defending your fandom while putting in random throw away lines like "when you were cheering for the Lakers....".

[DPG21920]

Oh yeah, get your own fucking coffee girl.

[timtonymanu]

Read the whole post. Yes, I do expect that because the FO tried to win. It does not always happen. What do you want them to do? What else can they do besides what they have done until this point? You expect them to just be able to constantly trade for players that can win them a title every 3 months?

I applaud the FO for doing the best they can to make this team win a title this year. Dick and Dice have underachieved greatly this year which is why some fans are taking it too far by saying the FO sucks. That still doesnt excuse the lazy play of the team this year which is why im disappointed in them. They play like they give up on the season so thats why i feel that way.

[DPG21920]

I applaud the FO for doing the best they can to make this team win a title this year. Dick and Dice have underachieved greatly this year which is why some fans are taking it too far by saying the FO sucks. That still doesnt excuse the lazy play of the team this year which is why im disappointed in them. They play like they give up on the season so thats why i feel that way.

That is perfectly understandable.

[Marcus Bryant]

Don't post your weak ass bandwagoner shit in this thread and expect roses and daisies.

[DPG21920]

Oh yeah, get your own fucking coffee girl.

Oh yeah, especially funny coming from the guy who says "I hate Spurs fans".

[DPG21920]

Don't post your weak ass bandwagoner shit in this thread and expect roses and daisies.

:cry Someone said something not even directed at me and now that I realize I look like an idiot, I have to keep going because my ego won't let me stop.

[ElNono]

Can't trade the coach... This is NOT the Spurs system that won this team championships.
I completely think we have enough talent. They're simply not being held accountable on the defensive end, and the coach keeps on sending out weak lineups after weak lineups.
We know what it takes to win a championship. It's not a porous defense.

[Stringer_Bell]

Wow, I didn't realize there was FO hate going on at all...definitely not their fault. That's why I'm sure that they are trying to figure out a way to find some glue for this team...great pieces but there is nothing hold it together, thus the inconsistency that will get us routed in the first round.

[Marcus Bryant]

This team needs a personnel change ASAP. Options 2-4 aren't going to cut it offensively. The D is pedestrian. The window is closing.

[DPG21920]

It is still salvageable. This team has the ability, but can they turn that into something tangible? Not sure, but a trade for someone that can play inside defensively would go a long way.

[z0sa]

One question: Did the FO make moves where a reasonable person could conclude they were trying to win?

I answer with another question, a more pressing and debatable question: is the coaching and FO realizing what any reasonable fan is? That the Spurs are still facing the same problems, and the same decline, they did last season and are trying to avert.

And the definition of fickle doesn't coincide with pointing out the fact Spurs haven't taken care of business this season.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh yeah, especially funny coming from the guy who says "I hate Spurs fans".

Yes, I hate Spurs fans like you.

[DPG21920]

Yes, I hate Spurs fans like you.

How many posts does your ego have? Is there something wrong with what I said? If so, point it out and quit crying like a little sissy girl.

[My Fault]

I love the geniuses in here who want to deal parker. The guy puts up 22 pts and 10 dimes in a loss, so what the Spurs really need is a pass-first point guard??

It's not the piss poor interior defense, it's the lack of a pass-first point guard. Now i get it.

+1

It's truely pathetic how little some know here.

[Mikesatx]

Drop the rotation to 8. Duncan, Blair, McD, Manu, Hill, Jefferson, Bogans, Bonner

Rest Parker until the playoffs. The team goes no where unless he is 100% anyway.

Run the offense through Duncan. Post him until the opposition doubles then kick for the three or the drive. It alomost feels like Duncan fealt obligated to defer to Parker a year or two ago and Parker was the first option and they never reverted back to Duncan.

Duncan again becomes the first option, Manu the distributor and playmaker, Jefferson the number two being set up by Manu, Hill the pass first point, defensive specialist.

[Fabbs]

Can coaches be traded for players? I believe so.

Surely there are some delusional front offices who think like many a ST poster and site runners do, that being that Popped is among if not the best coach in the game.

Well, how about Popped for Bosh?

[slick'81]

i did the like the rotations tonight hill starting with blair with manu/mcdyess and bonner off the pine but in the end it was the same result when it comes to 4th quarter basketball this team doesnt have what it takes to finish

[elbamba]

Sadly, the only real assets the Spurs have are Hill and Blair. If the Spurs could get rid of a couple of contracts just to save money I would not be upset. They gave it a shot but got the wrong players. I still do not mind Jefferson, we dont give him the ball enough. But Dice was a waste of money along with KB who sucks. Drop him and call up Harriston already. His defense is overrated and his offense is worse than most high schoolers.

[dbestpro]

I no longer blame the players. Pop is the one driving this ship into oblivion. I have never seen a coach so successful at destroying a team's momentum as Pop has done this year.

[My Fault]

Can coaches be traded for players? I believe so.

Surely there are some delusional front offices who think like many a ST poster and site runners do, that being that Popped is among if not the best coach in the game.

Well, how about Popped for Bosh?

^ prime example of the pathetic Spurs fan who obviously knows very little about the game.

[TD 21]

I know it's a long shot, but the best, at least semi-realistic trade proposal I can come up with is Jefferson, Splitter, a 1st round draft pick (and possibly some minor assets) for Iguodala and Dalembert.

76ers motivation: bad team, awful attendance, bloated payroll, looking to trade either Dalembert or Brand and so desperate to do so that they may part with Iguodala to accomplish that. In Jefferson, they get a huge expiring contract for next season and a lesser version of Iguodala, who could theoretically replace the majority of his production on that team in the short term. In this trade, they accomplish said goal of dealing Dalembert, gain cap flexibility for '11 and get two quality assets in Splitter and a 1st.

Spurs motivation: it's simple, the off season makeover clearly isn't working out and the two biggest needs are a stopper who can double as a fourth option (Iguodala) and an athletic big man who can rebound, block shots and protect the rim in general (Dalembert). Add these two to Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, McDyess, Hill and Blair and you theoretically have the makings of a legit championship contender for this season and next.

I know Dalembert is a sometimes malcontent and has a low basketball IQ, but he seems like a genuinely good guy, theoretically fills the Spurs front line needs (and is significantly younger and more durable than Camby) and if taking on his contract means the Spurs acquire Iguodala, then how do they say no?

[dbestpro]

i did the like the rotations tonight hill starting with blair with manu/mcdyess and bonner off the pine but in the end it was the same result when it comes to 4th quarter basketball this team doesnt have what it takes to finish

We want the players to play for 48 minutes maybe Pop should coach with some semblance of intelligence for 48 minutes.

[DPG21920]

That trade does not come close to working under the cap.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't think we need a big trade..a BIG trade is too risky, look at what's happening with RJ..

I'd try to trade RJ, but I doubt any team bites..the only way we could move him without question would be for an Elton Brand-like contract, but that would be stupid by the Spurs..

I wouldn't trade Manu, he's still valuable..

Trade Mason/Bonner/Finley and whoever else expires..trade any current or future 1st round picks..trade the rights to Splitter..this SHOULD net us a legit big and maybe a defensive stopper, although I'd settle for just the big man..

Will that guarantee anything? No, obviously not..nothing short of a Gasol trade would guarantee anything..but it will help shore up a serious problem with the D, it will help Duncan battle down low, and it could also bring some new blood and spark this team..then there's the wildcard..will the coach play this big man legit minutes?..

Trading for a big name isn't an option though, this team has too many issues with chemistry as it is..

[timaios]

This trade :

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjbumay

Tim Duncan -> Cleveland
Ilgauskas + Moon + Gibson -> San Antonio

Why ?

Because i want to see Tim Duncan win 1 or 2 more rings !
Because Tim + Shack + Lebron would be badassss !
Because i want to see the multiple threads of "WTF is that trade" by Lakers fans !
Because i want to see the old Tim & Shack destroy the soft Bynum & Gasol !
Because i want to see the face of KB24 when he'll see Tim & Shack win their 5th ring !

And because the Spurs are not going to make the playoffs this year.
Start over, draft in the 1st 10 picks 2 or 3 years in a row... Maybe we'll be lucky and get a new franchise player.
Bring Tiago Splitter next year and play the young guys.
If Tony & Manu want to stay, good... if not trade them or give them to contenders.

Now, you can yell at me ! :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Trade for picks and start getting ready for the lottery.

[DPG21920]

Just anyone who can help on the interior would go a long way. At that point, you just have to hope TP and Manu get better and TD sustains.

[GooberNuts]

I'm not super disappointed in Jefferson - I mean he's a quality player who I think is still trying to fit in to our system. But his price tag just isn't worth it for what we are getting out of him.

[Marcus Bryant]

So now we need to make a trade. ROFL. Make up your mind.

[it's me]

This trade :

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjbumay

Tim Duncan -> Cleveland
Ilgauskas + Moon + Gibson -> San Antonio

Why ?

Because i want to see Tim Duncan win 1 or 2 more rings !
Because Tim + Shack + Lebron would be badassss !
Because i want to see the multiple threads of "WTF is that trade" by Lakers fans !
Because i want to see the old Tim & Shack destroy the soft Bynum & Gasol !
Because i want to see the face of KB24 when he'll see Tim & Shack win their 5th ring !

And because the Spurs are not going to make the playoffs this year.
Start over, draft in the 1st 10 picks 2 or 3 years in a row... Maybe we'll be lucky and get a new franchise player.
Bring Tiago Splitter next year and play the young guys.
If Tony & Manu want to stay, good... if not trade them or give them to contenders.

Now, you can yell at me ! :lol

:lmao shit this is funny.....

[Truckules]

To win a ring this year, the FO needs to get Haywood for expirings and pick(s). Then, we need to hope Pop gets out of whatever funk he is in. I don't know if he's losing it or if he doesn't care anymore.

[DPG21920]

His price tag is part of the reason the Spurs got him. It was where the Bucks got value in the trade.

[Mikesatx]

This teams only shot is to make what they have work. There is no trade that is going to make this team a title contender this year.

[rascal]

Point is, it is not right to do what Spurs fans do given the circumstances. The asked the FO to make moves to try and win, and they did that. That should be enough to keep fans from completely shitting on them.

Now give them time to rectify the situation.

Its not just about making moves, its making the right moves.

[MaNu4Tres]

I know it's a long shot, but the best, at least semi-realistic trade proposal I can come up with is Jefferson, Splitter, a 1st round draft pick (and possibly some minor assets) for Iguodala and Dalembert.

76ers motivation: bad team, awful attendance, bloated payroll, looking to trade either Dalembert or Brand and so desperate to do so that they may part with Iguodala to accomplish that. In Jefferson, they get a huge expiring contract for next season and a lesser version of Iguodala, who could theoretically replace the majority of his production on that team in the short term. In this trade, they accomplish said goal of dealing Dalembert, gain cap flexibility for '11 and get two quality assets in Splitter and a 1st.

Spurs motivation: it's simple, the off season makeover clearly isn't working out and the two biggest needs are a stopper who can double as a fourth option (Iguodala) and an athletic big man who can rebound, block shots and protect the rim in general (Dalembert). Add these two to Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, McDyess, Hill and Blair and you theoretically have the makings of a legit championship contender for this season and next.

I know Dalembert is a sometimes malcontent and has a low basketball IQ, but he seems like a genuinely good guy, theoretically fills the Spurs front line needs (and is significantly younger and more durable than Camby) and if taking on his contract means the Spurs acquire Iguodala, then how do they say no?

Pop loves Dalembert believe it or not and has praised about him behind closed doors.

I was an advocate of this proposal in the trade speculation thread.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143456&page=15

[DPG21920]

So now we need to make a trade. ROFL. Make up your mind.

WTF are you going on about. I never said you were fickle. I never said anyone who thinks we need to make a trade is fickle. I have been in agreement that the Spurs needed a trade long before you started your thread, which by the way there is another one just like it.

I said that the fans are being fickle. I said that because they are going overboard with their criticisms of the situation. I am not happy with how things turned out, but I am happy with the initial plan. The FO tried to win.

[DPG21920]

Its not just about making moves, its making the right moves.

So you thought bringing in Dice and RJ was bad from the start?

[TD 21]

Yeah, it doesn't come close to working under the cap. Roughly $23.5 million in combined salaries from Iguodala and Dalembert and roughly $14 million from Jefferson. Either the Spurs could cobble together a few of their expiring contracts to even out the money or they bring in a third team to help facilitate the trade. As a base for a trade, though, that trade theoretically satisfies both teams needs. It would mostly come down to this: are the 76ers so motivated to rid themselves of Dalembert that they give up Iguodala in the process? If the answer is yes, then that's not a bad return for them.

[rascal]

I don't think we need a big trade..a BIG trade is too risky, look at what's happening with RJ..

I'd try to trade RJ, but I doubt any team bites..the only way we could move him without question would be for an Elton Brand-like contract, but that would be stupid by the Spurs..

I wouldn't trade Manu, he's still valuable..

Trade Mason/Bonner/Finley and whoever else expires..trade any current or future 1st round picks..trade the rights to Splitter..this SHOULD net us a legit big and maybe a defensive stopper, although I'd settle for just the big man..

Will that guarantee anything? No, obviously not..nothing short of a Gasol trade would guarantee anything..but it will help shore up a serious problem with the D, it will help Duncan battle down low, and it could also bring some new blood and spark this team..then there's the wildcard..will the coach play this big man legit minutes?..

Trading for a big name isn't an option though, this team has too many issues with chemistry as it is..

Mason/Bonner/Finley won't get you anyone who will make any type of difference.

[z0sa]

The championship isn't won in the offseason on paper.

[DPG21920]

Pop loves Dalembert believe it or not and has praised about him behind closed doors.

I was an advocate of this proposal in the trade speculation thread.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143456&page=15

Spurs would need to come up with approx. 10M more dollars to make that trade work. Even then, they would need something back talent wise.

[DPG21920]

The championship isn't won in the offseason on paper.

Obviously. Spurs are a prime example of that.

[Mikesatx]

As long as Duncan plays and is healthy the team will challenge for the playoffs. Won't win it all but will challenge. As a life long spur fan I'd feel sick if Duncan ended career in another jersey.

[MaNu4Tres]

Yeah, it doesn't come close to working under the cap. Roughly $23.5 million in combined salaries from Iguodala and Dalembert and roughly $14 million from Jefferson. Either the Spurs could cobble together a few of their expiring contracts to even out the money or they bring in a third team to help facilitate the trade. As a base for a trade, though, that trade theoretically satisfies both teams needs. It would mostly come down to this: are the 76ers so motivated to rid themselves of Dalembert that they give up Iguodala in the process? If the answer is yes, then that's not a bad return for them.

Jefferson/ Bonner/ Mason for Iggy and Dalembert works

[DPG21920]

Mason/Bonner/Finley won't get you anyone who will make any type of difference.

This is the true source of any debate. There are varying degrees of how much this team needs.

[z0sa]

So you thought bringing in Dice and RJ was bad from the start?

Dyess looks done, sad but true. He literally never cuts or rolls on picks for layups, instead favoring covered jumpshots. He never posts up or takes his man to the basket off a fake. He's also never been a strong defender and always had a slightly above average fouling rate.

RJ just doesn't fit in this system. Truth be told, with this many offensive options TP is too dominant with the ball. TP should be splitting playmaking duties more often and should actually defer to RJ at times without a playcall.

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs would need to come up with approx. 10M more dollars to make that trade work. Even then, they would need something back talent wise.

Like the Bucks did?

Go look at my proposal in the thread.

Jefferson/ Mason/ Bonner for Iggy and Dalembert works

throw in Splitters right and a future 1st that should get the 76ers thinking.

[Fabbs]

^ prime example of the pathetic Spurs fan who obviously knows very little about the game.
coaches can be traded bitch.
And/or teams compensated for the *loss*.

Bosh in place of Popped makes us immediately 10Xs better.

[rascal]

So you thought bringing in Dice and RJ was bad from the start?

No but they still did not address the inferior frontline with the moves they made. Expecting McDyess and Bonner to get the majority of minutes won't cut it.
That is where the problem lies, no interior defense. McDyess is at the end of his career now.

[DPG21920]

Dyess looks done, sad but true. He literally never cuts or rolls on picks for layups, instead favoring covered jumpshots. He never posts up or takes his man to the basket off a fake. He's also never been a strong defender and always had a slightly above average fouling rate.

RJ just doesn't fit in this system. Truth be told, with this many offensive options TP is too dominant with the ball. TP should be splitting playmaking duties more often and should actually defer to RJ at times without a playcall.


All of that may be true, but virtually every Spurs fan on here was happy in the off season when the Spurs made those moves.

[Sense]

I agree.... there needs to be a change.

[SpursRulez4eVeR]

we don't have the right players for pop's system, not dice, not RJ! WHEN WILL POP GET IT?

[z0sa]

Obviously. Spurs are a prime example of that.

Then "The FO tried to win [with their offseason moves]" is not an acceptable reasoning. Present tense should be used considering the trade deadline is a month away still.

[DPG21920]

No but they still did not address the inferior frontline with the moves they made. Expecting McDyess and Bonner to get the majority of minutes won't cut it.
That is where the problem lies, no interior defense. McDyess is at the end of his career now.

I have a feeling that most of the FO and Spurs fans thought Dice would be enough.

[DPG21920]

Then "The FO tried to win [with their offseason moves]" is not an acceptable reasoning. Present tense should be used considering the trade deadline is a month away still.

No, because my point remains that Spurs fans were happy with the off season moves and that just because they are under achieving does not mean the FO sucks.

I have already said that you need to give it time for them to make another move or decision.

[HarlemHeat37]

Mason/Bonner/Finley won't get you anyone who will make any type of difference.

I disagree..those guys are to match salaries in a trade for another expiring + adding in sweeteners like 1st round picks and/or Splitter's rights..or using those expirings to trade for a bad contract to a team willing to salary dump, which is very common in the NBA right now..

[MaNu4Tres]

Jackson would have helped this team immensely by the way.

A lot more than Jefferson to say the least.

[Libri]

All of that may be true, but virtually every Spurs fan on here was happy in the off season when the Spurs made those moves.

I have to admit that I was originally happy with the Spurs moves. :(

[jag]

As unpopular as it sounds, I think RJ can/will be a very big asset come playoff time. The fans who are disappointed in him are the fans who expected him to come in here averaging 20 a game. RJ's chemistry with the rest of the team is noticeably more developed than it was early on. When the offense stalls, RJ can bring athleticism that no one else on the team has to offer. In all honesty, RJ is basically what he was supposed to be. He was brought in to infuse the offense, and he's done just that. This team has the best offensive numbers of any Spurs team in the Duncan era.

The problems are not on the offensive end. The problems are in the paint. If a deal is made, it needs to be for a big man who can guard the paint. Camby isn't a great man-defender, but he doesn't have to be. His length and experience would be great for weak side defense and changing shots. And that's what Duncan and the Spurs need at this point.

[rascal]

Like the Bucks did?

Go look at my proposal in the thread.

Jefferson/ Mason/ Bonner for Iggy and Dalembert works

throw in Splitters right and a future 1st that should get the 76ers thinking.

I wanted to move Manu for Iggy and Dalembert last year and no one said that would be a good move. Now I see people want these guys.

Trading Manu now makes the most sense. He is on the rapid decline and won't be worth much of anything in a couple of years.

[z0sa]

All of that may be true, but virtually every Spurs fan on here was happy in the off season when the Spurs made those moves.

I was one of them. I felt like the Spurs could make this work since they have a veteran, all-pros type of team and incredible coaching.

Everyone was wrong, thus far. The problems on offense stem from the entire system itself. The problems on defense stem from a lack of qualified personnel.

It is what it is. Moving forward time is now.

[DPG21920]

Point is, it is not right to do what Spurs fans do given the circumstances. The asked the FO to make moves to try and win, and they did that. That should be enough to keep fans from completely shitting on them.

Now give them time to rectify the situation.


What does that have to do with the fan base being fickle? Nothing is done with 100% certainty. All you can ask for from the team you root for is that they try and win.

They have done that. They made moves that made sense and that they thought could give them the best shot to win. They spent money and put out a team that could compete.

So far it has not worked out, but that does not mean fans should bitch and moan like a bunch of spoiled brats. Sometimes things don't work out, but you take it like a man and move forward. There is nothing wrong with wanting improvements, but there is something wrong with crying like little malcontents and whining over moves that everyone would have made. Especially when those moves were made with the best of intentions.

Fickle fan base.


I was one of them. I felt like the Spurs could make this work since they have a veteran, all-pros type of team and incredible coaching.

Everyone was wrong, thus far. The problems on offense stem from the entire system itself. The problems on defense stem from a lack of qualified personnel.

It is what it is. Moving forward time is now.

[timtonymanu]

All of that may be true, but virtually every Spurs fan on here was happy in the off season when the Spurs made those moves.

+100000.

RJ was suppose to make the big 4. (ST posters opinions)

Dice was the answer to beating the Lakers bigs. (ST posters opinions)

Now that these guys suck, some posters are acting like the FO was stupid in the decisions they made. And that they should have evaluated better. People were on their nuts in the offseason. now they suck to them. We're not the Lakers. We're not gonna get players easily because no one wants to play here because of the lack of media hype. We cant just sign Dwight Howard or LeBron James. We have to settle for less unfortunately. Not the FO's fault.

[GooberNuts]

I think definitely emotions are running high right now right after the loss, and while some of the anger may not be entirely justified, it definitely stems from the Spurs lack of achievement so far and the bleak out look of the team. I mean, it doesn't look like we are going to improve much currently with what we have, but also if we try to add in more new players, we are still going to have trouble.

[z0sa]

I never said they made mistakes in the off-season. They're making the mistakes NOW, and I've made that abundantly clear.

[TD 21]

Like the Bucks did?

Go look at my proposal in the thread.

Jefferson/ Mason/ Bonner for Iggy and Dalembert works

throw in Splitters right and a future 1st that should get the 76ers thinking.

I'd prefer to hold Mason out of the deal, but I definitely wouldn't let him be a deal breaker.

Get them thinking? Unless they're dead set against trading Iguodala, I'm not sure they could do better. Mason, more than an expiring contract, would be a useful piece for the notoriously poor outside shooting 76ers. They have one knock down shooter on the roster, Kapono and he's now fallen out of the rotation for the time being. Even Bonner they could potentially use for this same reason. So two guys that they could actually use, a huge expiring contract (Jefferson) that will be a useful asset next season, plus Splitter and a 1st, which are both quality assets. That's a ton of value, just to move an overpaid non-franchise player (Iguodala) AND to get to dump a bad contract (Dalembert) in the process? I don't know if the 76ers could turn this down.

Spurs roster (with this hypothetical trade)

Starters: PF- Duncan, SF- Iguodala, C- Dalembert, SG- Finley, PG- Parker

Bench: SG- Ginobili, PF- McDyess, PG/SG- Hill, PF- Blair, SG- Bogans, C- Ratliff, SG/SF- Hairston

Inactive: C/PF- Mahinmi

Obviously, they'd need to add depth in the form of another SF-sized swing man who could knock down the three at a good clip and a run of the mill third PG, but as a base that's a strong, clearly defined top eight as a playoff rotation. I'm not big on Finley starting, but with with that starting lineup I'd want a 40% 3 point shooter to stretch the floor.

[MaNu4Tres]

Manu Ginobili for Rudy Gay AND OJ mayo

lmao nice sigz

[DPG21920]

No question the Spurs need to improve and they need to make a trade. I don't think they are that far off (based on what I believe to be reasonable assumptions). A solid inside defensive player will do. The rest will be on the big 3's ability to elevate their game.

Can't blame a FO for giving a core one last shot.

[NRHector]

I no longer blame the players. Pop is the one driving this ship into oblivion. I have never seen a coach so successful at destroying a team's momentum as Pop has done this year.+ 1:toast

[Obstructed_View]

No, because my point remains that Spurs fans were happy with the off season moves and that just because they are under achieving does not mean the FO sucks.

I have already said that you need to give it time for them to make another move or decision.

1-14 the Spurs are good enough to win a title. The front office doesn't suck. The coach does. The only real front office mistake was to fail to pickup Mahinmi's option. That wouldn't be a big deal if the problem weren't compounded by the coach who would rather see the team lose than expose the mistake.

[DPG21920]

I never said they made mistakes in the off-season. They're making the mistakes NOW, and I've made that abundantly clear.

What mistakes are they making now? That they are under achieving? What can they do to fix that? Is it a mistake that they have not already made a trade? Because that seems unreasonable.

[Fabbs]

No, because my point remains that Spurs fans were happy with the off season moves and that just because they are under achieving does not mean the FO sucks.

I have already said that you need to give it time for them to make another move or decision.
To the contrary they suck even more because they have direct access to info that Joe Q SpursTalk does not. Ie interviews, medical reports.

I never thought Dick was the answer altho anyone was an upgrade over Fins at the SF/PF.

[z0sa]

Can't blame a FO for giving a core one last shot.

The shot isn't over, not nearly. The FO and Coach Pop can't be given your 'free pass for trying' yet.

[murpjf88]

No, because my point remains that Spurs fans were happy with the off season moves and that just because they are under achieving does not mean the FO sucks.

I have already said that you need to give it time for them to make another move or decision.


I was extremely disappointed with the acquisition of RJ. I wasn't shy about posting it either and was cursed out big time, so I kept it more to myself and let it all play out.

As far as Dice is concerned, The spurs needed to replace Kurt Thomas and their were few options at the time. All I expected from him was to come in here and get some rebounds and take some pressure of TD. I envisioned him starting alongside Timmy and he's been a complete flop.

[DPG21920]

The shot isn't over, not nearly. The FO and Coach Pop can't be given your 'free pass for trying' yet.

What free pass? I am saying given the "current" circumstances they need to try and make another move.

[ElNono]

The thing is, unless the coach divorces his current marriage with Small Ball(tm), bringing in another big to watch the game from the bench is not going to do absolutely anything.
We alreayd have a roster with:
1) the young promising stud big man who is undersized like Malik rose but knows how to rebound
2) the young athletic big man that shows promise but can't stop fouling people
3) the trusty old vet that has a money jumper but can't stop anybody
4) the situational 3 point shooting big that spaces the floor and rarely does much more
5) the situational shot blocker vet that is only good for that

and until yesterday:
6) the dissed youngster that rebuilt his career in Europe but still can't cut into a rotation

Yet, we play RJ and Roger Mason at PF...

[rascal]

I have a feeling that most of the FO and Spurs fans thought Dice would be enough.

I did not. He is not starter quality anymore and most should have known that last summer. I thought he could be a solid guy off the bench at most but they still needed a quality starter big.

McDyess is too old now and his serious injury history has sapped some years off his career. Thinking he could log big minutes was a miscalculation from the fo. Thinking he and Bonner can get you over the big guns in the west is a miscalculation from the fo. The frontline issues were still there after the offseason.

[SouthTexasRancher]

Keep Tim, Blair, Hill. Trade whoever else.

Make a run at Bosh


Amen!!! I'd also include Manu but, it looks like his body is over the hill and it may take including Manu in order for another team to take anyone else presently on our squad. Include that old, hard headed, refuses to change with the times Pop in any trade. He gets rid of Haislip today and keeps RJ. Pop gets rid of Bowen and keeps Bogans. We had Scola and Pop sees to it that Houston gets him because he didn't want Holt to go over the limit yet he goes after do nothing bums like RJ & Dice. Time for Pop to fire himself if he doesn't change his style and makes some great trades. If not we will not only not be making a run at Championship #5, we won't even make the playoffs this year or next year. This is the worst Spurs team in the Duncan era.

Pop, you owe it to Tim and Peter Holt.

[DPG21920]

I did not. He is not starter quality anymore and most should have known that last summer. I thought he could be a solid guy off the bench at most but they still needed a quality starter big.

McDyess is too old now and his serious injury history has sapped some years off his career. Thinking he could log big minutes was a miscalculation from the fo. Thinking he and Bonner can get you over the big guns in the west is a miscalculation from the fo. The frontline issues were still there after the offseason.

Who did you think they could have realistically gotten that was better then?

[GooberNuts]

I never said they made mistakes in the off-season. They're making the mistakes NOW, and I've made that abundantly clear.

Exactly - the FO did everything they could to make the team better, and I was looking forward to this season. But it is clear that a combination of things are just not working out for the team- be it nagging injuries, players not meeting expectations, poor rotations and coaching decisions.

The team just doesn't seem to have the chemistry or hunger/sense of urgency to go after the title. Half of having a good defense comes from a desire to be aggressive and committed on that end (granted we also don't have the right personnel to back up that aggressiveness with ability). Hill is the only guy who seems to be going hard on that end with the skill to back it up.

[jermaine]

we don't have the right players for pop's system, not dice, not RJ! WHEN WILL POP GET IT?

We have the right players, Pop just don't know how to use em. When you gettin killed in the paint an you have two 7fts on the bench an you keep puttin in Blair 6-7 Dice 6-9 & Bonner 6-9 with a bad hand, its the coach not the players. The Spurs are to stubborn to trade at this point. Pop still believe we need to be patient so that should let you know we aint. Someone just needs to slap the FUCK outta Pop stuck on stupid ass (Timmy). I like Blair but he has no defense like Bonner! RJ is a slasher not a spot up! Dice just wants 20mins off the bench. Ian wants to play& can't even see the court. Your beloved Popavich makes me wanna. Pop-a-bitch!

[DPG21920]

Exactly - the FO did everything they could to make the team better, and I was looking forward to this season. But it is clear that a combination of things are just not working out for the team- be it nagging injuries, players not meeting expectations, poor rotations and coaching decisions.

The team just doesn't seem to have the chemistry or hunger/sense of urgency to go after the title. Half of having a good defense comes from a desire to be aggressive and committed on that end (granted we also don't have the right personnel to back up that aggressiveness with ability). Hill is the only guy who seems to be going hard on that end with the skill to back it up.

So I will ask you, what mistakes are they making now?

[Obstructed_View]

Trade the "soft" speech + smallball for calling up Malik Hairston and playing the players on the roster.

[z0sa]

What free pass? I am saying given the "current" circumstances they need to try and make another move.

You've gone on and on about how spurfan is fickle, yet now you agree we should be making moves. Moves aren't made unless people lose that 'affection', bro, and it doing so doesn't automatically make them fickle like you so easily suggest.

Like MB said - choose something. I know you love debating, but you're either being disingenuous or confusing.

[jag]

The thing is, unless the coach divorces his current marriage with Small Ball(tm), bringing in another big to watch the game from the bench is not going to do absolutely anything.
We alreayd have a roster with:
1) the young promising stud big man who is undersized like Malik rose but knows how to rebound
2) the young athletic big man that shows promise but can't stop fouling people
3) the trusty old vet that has a money jumper but can't stop anybody
4) the situational 3 point shooting big that spaces the floor and rarely does much more
5) the situational shot blocker vet that is only good for that

and until yesterday:
6) the dissed youngster that rebuilt his career in Europe but still can't cut into a rotation

Yet, we play RJ and Roger Mason at PF...

I usually defend the hell outa Pop, but I'm having a difficult time figuring out what his goal is. At the beginning of the season he said he wanted to go back to placing defense as the foundation. But since then every move he's made with his lineups has been in direct conflict with that.

The Spurs aren't going to go very far playing Suns ball.

[DPG21920]

You've gone on and on about how spurfan is fickle, yet now you agree we should be making moves. Moves aren't made unless people lose that 'affection', bro, and it doing so doesn't automatically make them fickle like you so easily suggest.

Like MB said - choose something. I know you love debating, but you're either being disingenuous or confusing.

No, there is a clear distinction between wanting the team to improve, but understanding things don't always work out and that trades are tough versus jumping off cliffs and overreacting to the point where you are ripping the FO for moves you lobbied for.

[DPG21920]

There is nothing confusing, disingenuous or contradicting about my statement.

[DPG21920]

Also Zosa, I will ask you again: What are the mistakes they are making now?

[z0sa]

No, there is a clear distinction between wanting the team to improve, but understanding things don't always work out and that trades are tough versus jumping off cliffs and overreacting to the point where you are ripping the FO for moves you lobbied for.

I'm not sure anyone actively "lobbied" for the RJ trade due to its nature, though I remember a few suggested its possibility.

And again, I'm not seeing people attacking the FO over the original trade except for a small minority who do it for questionable reasoning. The ship left port with full sails, but the edge of the storm has hit and it only gets worse from here.

Don't we need aid in righting the ship? And what if its the captain's fault we're in this storm anyway (not the FO's moves, but Pop's coaching decisions)?

[TD 21]

I'd prefer to hold Mason out of the deal, but I definitely wouldn't let him be a deal breaker.

Get them thinking? Unless they're dead set against trading Iguodala, I'm not sure they could do better. Mason, more than an expiring contract, would be a useful piece for the notoriously poor outside shooting 76ers. They have one knock down shooter on the roster, Kapono and he's now fallen out of the rotation for the time being. Even Bonner they could potentially use for this same reason. So two guys that they could actually use, a huge expiring contract (Jefferson) that will be a useful asset next season, plus Splitter and a 1st, which are both quality assets. That's a ton of value, just to move an overpaid non-franchise player (Iguodala) AND to get to dump a bad contract (Dalembert) in the process? I don't know if the 76ers could turn this down.

Spurs roster (with this hypothetical trade)

Starters: PF- Duncan, SF- Iguodala, C- Dalembert, SG- Finley, PG- Parker

Bench: SG- Ginobili, PF- McDyess, PG/SG- Hill, PF- Blair, SG- Bogans, C- Ratliff, SG/SF- Hairston

Inactive: C/PF- Mahinmi

Obviously, they'd need to add depth in the form of another SF-sized swing man who could knock down the three at a good clip and a run of the mill third PG, but as a base that's a strong, clearly defined top eight as a playoff rotation. I'm not big on Finley starting, but with with that starting lineup I'd want a 40% 3 point shooter to stretch the floor.

The Spurs front office needs to be pushing for this trade. This solves virtually everything (theoretically) in one trade.

Look at that eight man playoff rotation. To add to that, the Warriors will probably buy out Bell (if he's healed) and the Spurs could go after him and if not him, then one of the other veterans bound to be available via buy out. As for the third point guard, anybody a cut above a guy like Hart will do. It's mainly just for depth purposes.

[z0sa]

There is nothing confusing, disingenuous or contradicting about my statement.

I disagree but I am just about done with ST for tonight.

[rascal]

Who did you think they could have realistically gotten that was better then?

I would have traded manu for a big (Camby) last year instead of the offer they made.

[DPG21920]

I would have traded manu for a big last year.


So you think Camby instead of Manu gives this team a better chance? Fair enough, but if it did not work out, would that mean the FO sucks?

[DPG21920]

I'm not sure anyone actively "lobbied" for the RJ trade due to its nature, though I remember a few suggested its possibility.

And again, I'm not seeing people attacking the FO over the original trade except for a small minority who do it for questionable reasoning. The ship left port with full sails, but the edge of the storm has hit and it only gets worse from here.

Don't we need aid in righting the ship? And what if its the captain's fault we're in this storm anyway (not the FO's moves, but Pop's coaching decisions)?

Everyone lobbied for a move like RJ+Dice. The players are irrelevant to a certain degree. I think they were good pieces, but I also said from the very beginning that they needed another piece to truly have a chance.

There is definitely a legit beef with Pop, but I was referring to the personnel. What personnel mistakes are being made? I am sure they realize they need to right the ship and make another move, but you can't always get the players you want in this league (i.e. camby)

[z0sa]

I remember everybody lobbying for Sheed/Dyess before last season even ended. However, a crazy trade like the RJ one was only imagined and hoped for, not expected.

[rascal]

So you think Camby instead of Manu gives this team a better chance? Fair enough, but if it did not work out, would that mean the FO sucks?

Yes. Getting a capable true center is key. The spurs have enough offensive fire power to trade Manu now(who has struggled and has been inconsistent all year anyways). Give Hill more minutes at the 2, develope him. He is good. Get Jefferson more looks, more shots, get him more involved in the offense. Get out and run more off Cambys shot blocking and rebounding.

Have Camby concentrate on defense(shot blocking and rebounding) to help Duncan in the paint to take away some of the easy points the opposition has been scoring on the spurs in the paint.

[DPG21920]

Of course no one expected it, because the FO does not act like that. But they answered the call on behalf of Tim and the fans.

I agree another move needs to be made, and I said this the moment the trade and signing of RJ+Dice was made. But that does not mean I will meltdown when things don't turn out.

[DPG21920]

Yes. Getting a capable true center is key. The spurs have enough offensive fire power to trade Manu now(who has struggled and has been inconsistent all year anyways). Give Hill more minutes at the 2, develope him. He is good. Get Jefferson more looks, more shots, get him more involved in the offense. Get out and run more off Cambys shot blocking and rebounding.

Have Camby concentrate on defense(shot blocking and rebounding) to help Duncan in the paint to take away some of the easy points the opposition has been scoring on the spurs in the paint.

You don't have to give up Manu to accomplish that.

[rascal]

Everyone lobbied for a move like RJ+Dice. The players are irrelevant to a certain degree. I think they were good pieces, but I also said from the very beginning that they needed another piece to truly have a chance.

There is definitely a legit beef with Pop, but I was referring to the personnel. What personnel mistakes are being made? I am sure they realize they need to right the ship and make another move, but you can't always get the players you want in this league (i.e. camby)

You have to give up enough to get the players you want (i.e. camby). Was manu even mentioned in any trade for Camby? No The spurs almost got camby last year. Had they offered Manu they probably get that deal done.

[rascal]

You don't have to give up Manu to accomplish that.

Apparately you do since the spurs have not been able to get a true quality big on the roster with what they want to offer in trades.

[ElNono]

You don't have to give up Manu to accomplish that.

If you're rascal, you do. But I digress, Camby was t available last year, and he's still not available right now. So the point has always been pretty much moot.

[DPG21920]

Just because you are willing to panic and overpay, does not mean the FO will. Nor should they.

[rascal]

Just because you are willing to panic and overpay, does not mean the FO will. Nor should they.

Its not over paying. Manu is on the decline now. So is Camby, who is not young, but Camby gives the spurs a fighting chance against the lakers big frontline.

you will not be winning titles relying on Manu to be a consistent star if you are weak on the frontline.

[rascal]

If you're rascal, you do. But I digress, Camby was t available last year, and he's still not available right now. So the point has always been pretty much moot.

I disagree. Camby was available if you dangled the right trade in front of the Clippers.

[Bruno]

I haven't read the whole thread (I guess is a big part of it is about people wanting to trade their usual scapegoat) but something to consider is the evolution of the financial state of the NBA.

This summer, projections were bad for the league with a $63M luxury tax threshold. Last December, projections were significantly better with a $66M luxury tax threshold. Spurs should be less reluctant to trade their expirings (Bonner, Mason, Finley, Mahinmi...) for players with longer contracts because Spurs will pay less luxury tax in 2010-2011.

[baseline bum]

Time for a move. No time to waste. The franchise has shown that they are loyal to the ring, so we need to make a move. Anyone outside of TD is on the block, IMHO.

So what say you?

Parker's not untouchable, but I'm only moving him if it lands Chris Paul or Deron Williams. Tony will be back strong next season. Everyone else but TD is not only on the block, but expendable.

[ElNono]

I disagree. Camby was available if you dangled the right trade in front of the Clippers.

But you don't know if an injured (back then) Ginobili was the right trade. For all we know, they could have been asking for Tony. Or wanted the Spurs to also absorb a terrible contract like Kaman's. If it was such a slamdunk trade for the Clips, well, we still have the assets to do it, and I don't see them making Marcus available.

I look at the Clips and I see they already have the very talented, injury prone guard in BDiddy. They have a promising guy in Gordon. Now they have Kaman with a bad contract which I assume it's gonna be the first guy they want to get rid of when Griffin plays next season. Camby has a great contract. I don't see why they would want to move him at all.

[baseline bum]

we need to blame pop for once instead of wanting trading our guys

maybe it's time to fire pop

Tony and Manu being shells of their former selves is the reason this team is mediocre. Blaming Popovich is asinine.

[Chieflion]

Who cares? Whoever wants to play stays, those gutless ones can go for all I care.

[slick'81]

Tony and Manu being shells of their former selves is the reason this team is mediocre. Blaming Popovich is asinine.


agreed timmy is on his last legs, manu is old and tony is hurting add in were starting a rookie and now a 2nd year player and u might be able to c this coming

[DPG21920]

Tony and Manu being shells of their former selves is the reason this team is mediocre. Blaming Popovich is asinine.

I agree and this is something I touched on during the last Kori show. Pop is certainly making some questionable moves, but they are all predicated on his best players (outside of Tim) not playing to their level.

Not only are they not playing to their level, they are well below it. That is not coaching, but it does put the coach in an incredibly tough spot. Sure, Pop could be making some moves to help out, but right now he does not really have the tools at his disposal to make a meaningful impact no matter what he does imo.

If guys are able to elevate their play, I think you will see a difference in the coaching and effectiveness of this team.

[ElNono]

Tony and Manu being shells of their former selves is the reason this team is mediocre. Blaming Popovich is asinine.

What's asinine is putting Ginobili to guard Landry in the paint...
I'm not going to deny that Manu and Tony have not played at their full potential, but tonight they both had a good game and we still gave up a gazillion points.
At some point the Coach HAS to get some degree of responsability.

[TD 21]

I agree and this is something I touched on during the last Kori show. Pop is certainly making some questionable moves, but they are all predicated on his best players (outside of Tim) not playing to their level.

Not only are they not playing to their level, they are well below it. That is not coaching, but it does put the coach in an incredibly tough spot. Sure, Pop could be making some moves to help out, but right now he does not really have the tools at his disposal to make a meaningful impact no matter what he does imo.

If guys are able to elevate their play, I think you will see a difference in the coaching and effectiveness of this team.

The obsession with small ball and playing lineups that give the team no chance to be successful defensively is coaching and it's also hypocritical considering Pop's penchant for stressing defense. We know this team is lacking a true number two big on the front line and in certain match-ups, I understand going small, but in every game, regardless of match-up? That's just insanity. You can talk about his deficiencies in every other facet of the game if you want, but how can Pop complain about the defense, yet rarely ever play (with the exception of garbage time) Ratliff? He's proven to still be an effective rim protector and shot blocker in short stretches.

Do Parker and Ginobili need to play better? Absolutely. But the overall depth and talent on this roster should offset that, at least against average teams, at home, in the regular season. It's easy to pick apart what's wrong with this team, but why aren't they, like every other good-very good team in the league, simply getting away with out-talenting teams? Look at the Lakers. They have six credible players: 1 is done, 1 is having a sub-par season, 2 are inconsistent and of the 2 stalwarts, one's play is suffering due to injury and the other has missed many games due to injury. Yet through it all, they're managing to win. Unimpressive fashion, no doubt, but winning all the same.

[sabar]

Our starting 5 outside Duncan are just not performing on any consistent basis, which is probably most of the reason why the bench has been performing so well. There is no trade that can remedy this. We seriously need Manu/Tony/Jefferson to find some semblance of game-to-game consistency or we have no chance. A big man, whether serviceable or excellent, isn't going to help when you have your top two play makers hobbling on one leg.

Our success is now a roll of the dice from this point out. It is highly unlikely that any team takes on Dices or Jefferson's contracts and highly unlikely that we get talent in return for manu or tony. We are in a lose-lose situation. Best that we can do is make the best trade we can with our expirings and pray everyone finds their games.

[DPG21920]

Pop certainly does not get a free pass and he shares the blame. But if TP, Manu and to a somewhat lesser degree Dice cannot play at a championship level, none of this will matter.

[MaNu4Tres]

Pop certainly does not get a free pass and he shares the blame. But if TP, Manu and to a somewhat lesser degree Dice cannot play at a championship level, none of this will matter.

There is no clear cut favorite this year. Every team has players not playing up to their standards. The least Pop could do is make the right decisions and not handicap this teams defense by electing going small in crucial moments of big games. Pop is too stubborn to realize this though unfortunately.

[DPG21920]

IMO there are clear cut favorites. Even if Pop made the perfect coaching decisions and the Spurs all played to their potential, they would not be the favorites to win assuming everyone is relatively healthy.

They would certainly have a much, much better chance, but I would still not rate them higher than a few other teams.

[Whisky Dog]

I'll watch the rest of the regular season and playoffs (if there is any) and I'm grateful for the front office's attempt to take one last stab.

I'd almost like to see the rotation altered with Bogans and Dice out and Ian and Hairston in. Just see what they got.

[ElNono]

Pop certainly does not get a free pass and he shares the blame. But if TP, Manu and to a somewhat lesser degree Dice cannot play at a championship level, none of this will matter.

I agree, but you also have to wonder what the message is, and if some players are listening at all. Coach says after the game that we sucked last game giving up 60 points. You would have to assume he spoke to the players about this. Ok, first half tonight: 55 points. Well, better but FAR from good. Talk about it some more, second half: gave up 60 points again...

I don't think Manu and Tony played that much different that we could have made a big impact on defense...

[DPG21920]

I agree with that, but you have seen it in flashes where this team can defend much better than they are currently. They might not have the tools to be a top 3 defensive team, but with more consistent play the could be better.

It is really hard to pin point certain things, but one thing that is for sure is that the Spurs need someone to help on the interior.

[MaNu4Tres]

IMO there are clear cut favorites. Even if Pop made the perfect coaching decisions and the Spurs all played to their potential, they would not be the favorites to win assuming everyone is relatively healthy.

They would certainly have a much, much better chance, but I would still not rate them higher than a few other teams.

Well I don't agree with you. A simple move like Bonner+ Finley+ Mahimni for Haywood would help our interior defense and put us in the pool of teams that would have a realistic chance at a title. IF Pop managed the playing time and substitutions the right way. IMO

Unfortunately it wouldn't really matter if you really think about it realistically. I say that because Pop would only play Haywood an insignificant 15-22 minutes, because Matty and small ball need their playing time. After all spreading the floor with small ball is what won us 4 titles right?

I just don't understand Pop. He preaches to the media and obviously to the players that they are playing " poor" defense. He claimed in the Express News that they are going back to their old ways " defense first". Yet he puts the team at a very vulnerable spot with Manu and RJ playing the 4 in crucial times in games regardless of the matchups. And there's Tim's man as usual setting screens, taking away our only interior defender to the perimeter, leaving the paint as wide open as Jenna Haze.

Another thing I don't understand about Pop.
Several times this year Blair would recieve 2 fouls in the first quarter or 3 fouls late in the 2nd quarter and would only see the floor maybe 5 minutes the rest of the game. Many of you would say " Blair only played 7 minutes because he got in foul trouble". My question is this. Why is Pop even worried about his fouls if he uses McDyess Bonner and Blair like a CYO rotation. All playing around 20 minutes barring injury or severe foul trouble. I never understood why Blair hardly ever sees the floor for the rest of the game if he gets in foul trouble early.

[Blackjack]

The fact of the matter is, finding a good bigman and/or swingman isn't going to solve all their problems. Pop likes to say they've lost more corporate knowledge than they realized, I contend it's more like their Championship soul; the intangibles, mystique, intelligence, discipline and overall know-how has been greatly diminished or completely lost. You don't just win with having great, healthy stars at the top of your lineup, but with grit, courage, resolve and highly-intelligent basketball players that make up a supporting cast; Bowen, Horry, Kerr, Barry and on, where are those guys on this roster?

The point isn't to point fingers or for me to say I told you so, but to acknowledge the facts as they are: The San Antonio Spurs are a gatekeeper without the personnel to shed the label. If they really want to change that fact, than they're going to have to act boldly (sans Duncan, there are no sacred cows).

And having said that, there's really not much you can do at this point..

I've discussed the AI-Dalembert with a couple of friends (probably their best option, if in the unlikely event the Sixers bit on RJ, expirings, Splitter and a possible pick(s)) but it's a very tenuous prospect, given the flux of the roster and the short time to find cohesion; maybe you're looking to next year, though.. And short of a CP3 for TP9 trade (something that could change the makeup and edge of the team and conceivably work short and long-term because of his ability to orchestrate an offense and lead) there's just not a lot that can realistically be done (I'm perfectly aware that CP3 for TP9 isn't realistic, by the way).

Honestly, even though I never liked RJ as a fit or thought he brought the type of game that could thrive or help to fill the gaps, I didn't see this coming; no way to this extent. There's nothing about the player he's shown in the Spurs uniform that says you can win with him at the highest level.

He's made a name for his self over the years and is plenty capable of producing a highlight, but little-to-nothing he's been bringing to the table has been what you'd need to win a Championship; the guy's lost the directions to the free-throw line and makes Bonner look like Moses Malone on the boards (the term, 'floor game', is a completely foreign concept to the guy). I just can't see how a team could really win a Championship with him being a big-minute complimentary player; nothing he does is complimentary. In fact, everything has to be tailored to him for him to be successful (some people's success just isn't worth the effort in the context of team).

Like I said before, there's no perfect or ideal fix out there; never mind the fact that I'm only talking from a basketball standpoint (the financial climate isn't all that conducive to taking on high-priced personnel).

I guess we'll get to see if there was anything to all the 'all-in' talk, though..

[jimo2305]

you guys know that trading this season is going to make us worse right?...

http://www.rofljock.com/2009/12/spurs-vp-of-team-operations-resorts-to-espn-trade-machine-to-save-season/

/shameless plug :(

[bigdog]

you guys know that trading this season is going to make us worse right?...

http://www.rofljock.com/2009/12/spurs-vp-of-team-operations-resorts-to-espn-trade-machine-to-save-season/

/shameless plug :(

LOL @ that last trade proposal. hah thats funny.

[jimo2305]

LOL @ that last trade proposal. hah thats funny.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yl43g7m

yea dat one :lol


was havin' some fun with trade machine a while back

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't really see why people keep saying that "trading for a big won't solve our problems"..of course it won't solve ALL the problems with Tony/Manu/Pop/Jefferson/McDyess, but at least it will help shore up the defense and at least give us a chance to win games..

People keep talking about how all these guys are struggling offensively, but the defense is by far the WORST of the Duncan era..that's just as concerning to me..obviously we need Tony/Manu/RJ/Pop to step up, but at least having a good defense will give us a real chance to actually win some of these games while those guys are trying to find their games..

Anybody that has been watching can tell that we need another 7-footer BADLY..the Spurs have reached fiend status..also, obviously we have to hope Pop actually plays him, as Manu4Tres mentioned..

Speaking of Pop, anybody else excited for Finley to make his return next week?..he should fill that PF spot nicely..

[manufan4life]

Antonio McDyess and RJ For Josh Howard and Jason Terry

[Blackjack]

Of course getting a legitimate #2 big would benefit this team. And if you're talking solely improvement and just giving the team a better chance at a longer more respectable playoff-run, I'd have no argument. But when you're talking Championship, there's just too many issues for them to be shored up with one player (they've just got a bit of an ill-fitted team to go about business as usual).

They just don't have the intelligence, grit and savvy in their supporting cast/role players to make the heady play, rotation or exhibit the proper discipline to carry out a game plan on both ends (when Pop alludes to effort not being a problem, it can be one of two things: They're having mental breakdowns (which can be lack of discipline or intelligence) or they're not physically capable.

While discipline can theoretically be corrected, I'm afraid it's not an either or; the perimeter D lacks size and/or experience in their best defenders and the interior D is obviously lacking. RJ and Tony playing heavy minutes won't help with your defense, either (for different reasons, as RJ is prone to the mental error and lacks the lateral quickness and Tony's just never been more than passable, really, when healthy; which he's not completely)

My argument has never been to say this team was crap; they're not. It's just been my belief from Day-1 that they were a flawed team that was in need of a move, possibly two, to get to a Championship level. Sadly, I had given them the benefit of a doubt because of past greatness, and past accomplishments.

Following this team so closely for so long, I became accustomed to thinking that it was all about them and what they did (it really used to be). But that time has gone. You can't simply say that if all goes to plan, they'll be where they want to be; they're just not that team anymore. They know it, the opposition knows it and now the fans are slowly starting to acknowledge it. All you have to do is look how these middle-of-the-pack teams play the Spurs nowadays; there's no fear-factor or mental-edge preventing them from dropping the Spurs.

The Spurs need more than just a tangible piece, imo; it's the intangibles they've lost that have brought them back to the pack.

[taps]

This trade :

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjbumay

Tim Duncan -> Cleveland
Ilgauskas + Moon + Gibson -> San Antonio

Why ?

Because i want to see Tim Duncan win 1 or 2 more rings !
Because Tim + Shack + Lebron would be badassss !
Because i want to see the multiple threads of "WTF is that trade" by Lakers fans !
Because i want to see the old Tim & Shack destroy the soft Bynum & Gasol !
Because i want to see the face of KB24 when he'll see Tim & Shack win their 5th ring !

And because the Spurs are not going to make the playoffs this year.
Start over, draft in the 1st 10 picks 2 or 3 years in a row... Maybe we'll be lucky and get a new franchise player.
Bring Tiago Splitter next year and play the young guys.
If Tony & Manu want to stay, good... if not trade them or give them to contenders.

Now, you can yell at me ! :lol

timaios u da man funny and clever stuff!

[Spursfanfromafar]

Here's a pie in the trade sky -

Richard Jefferson for Corey Maggette and Raja Bell

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yhppuaz

Roger Mason and Ian Mahinmi for Brendan Haywood

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yg57qu9

The Warriors get rid of their Maggette contract that they so wanted to give up and pick up a Don Nelson system player who replaces Stephen Jackson pretty effectively. Spurs give up their Jefferson experiment and instead get a very useful second option behind Duncan for scoring now that Parker is PF affected and Ginobili is more PG than SG. If Raja Bell recovers well within February as is expected.. he gets back in time for the playoffs to do the Bruce Bowen imitation along with Keith Bogans as his sidekick.

The second trade is more hypothetical than the first - don't know whether the Wizards will do an expiring for expirings trade, unless they like what they see in Mahinmi and think he can be useful for them. Roger Mason, being the good Washington kid and the team suffering from a negative image, adds an angel to go along with Jamison in their attempt to resurrect some image. Will they give up their best shot blocker and most consistent big man on the team? Who knows..with what the "bullets" have gone through this season.. they might do an Indiana Pacers and shed whatever they have.

Haywood is not the best center who could play with Duncan but he is the closest to a good shot blocker that Duncan needs in the front court. His is also an expiring contract and by replacing Mason with Hairston in the rotation, the Spurs will not be losing too much in the SG department.

[jimo2305]

hollinger's analysis.. +1 win lol..

[Spursfanfromafar]

hollinger's analysis.. +1 win lol..

Check again.. JH's analysis for both trades - +7 wins, +1 wins = +8 wins..

Hypothetically,the Spurs would be 33-9 now if JH's analyses held.

[Ice009]

Check again.. JH's analysis for both trades - +7 wins, +1 wins = +8 wins..

Hypothetically,the Spurs would be 33-9 now if JH's analyses held.

I like Maggette better than RJ and think he would fit better. He is a better mid range shooter and can get to the line a lot more than RJ.

Maggette wanted to play here too last season and if the Spurs were able to offer more money closer to Goldenstate's offer I think he would be here now.

I don't think he'll forget about Pop and Tim trying to get him here and if he was on the team I think he would put in the effort to play defense. I don't think he'd do that for many people, but I do think he would do that here.

[objective]

I get the feeling Haywood would pull a KT/Dice and his numbers would fall off a cliff.

[024]

someone mentioned a jefferson + filler for iguodala and dalembert.

jefferson + mason + bonner for iguodala + dalembert work salary wise.

i would do that in a blink of an eye. kind of makes sense for the sixers since they get a 20ppg scorer back, save millions this year, and get about $7 million in expiring contracts. spurs will have to heavily sweeten the deal though. a first round pick and goodbye to splitter. i don't believe dalembert will be of any use except block shots. his man to man defense isn't that great. low bbal iq too. but iguodala would be everything the spurs thought jefferson would be. an athletic wing who plays solid defense.

[objective]

Philly's going to dump their 26 year old go-to guy (who averaged 21, 6, and 7 in the playoffs) . . . so they can build around Elton Brand's cap-killing contract and Tiago Splitter?

:lol

[Mal]

You can`t win a shit, if Igy is your gtg. This guy suck as 1st option. Many game winning decision made bad this year.

[Spursfanfromafar]

someone mentioned a jefferson + filler for iguodala and dalembert.

jefferson + mason + bonner for iguodala + dalembert work salary wise.

i would do that in a blink of an eye. kind of makes sense for the sixers since they get a 20ppg scorer back, save millions this year, and get about $7 million in expiring contracts. spurs will have to heavily sweeten the deal though. a first round pick and goodbye to splitter. i don't believe dalembert will be of any use except block shots. his man to man defense isn't that great. low bbal iq too. but iguodala would be everything the spurs thought jefferson would be. an athletic wing who plays solid defense.

The trouble with Iguodala's contract is that it runs for 5 years topping at $15 million. That ruins the Spurs' financial flexibility for a long time into the future. AI is a good player, no doubt, but Spurs would have to alter their plans both in the immediate and in the later to accommodate this huge contract.

Maggette's $9-11 million/year till 2013 contract is more flexible comparitively.

Besides,I don't like Dalembert's contract or his reliability that much. Haywood in his contract season can be expected to deliver pretty much well.

[Bukefal]

What does that have to do with the fan base being fickle? Nothing is done with 100% certainty. All you can ask for from the team you root for is that they try and win.

They have done that. They made moves that made sense and that they thought could give them the best shot to win. They spent money and put out a team that could compete.

So far it has not worked out, but that does not mean fans should bitch and moan like a bunch of spoiled brats. Sometimes things don't work out, but you take it like a man and move forward. There is nothing wrong with wanting improvements, but there is something wrong with crying like little malcontents and whining over moves that everyone would have made. Especially when those moves were made with the best of intentions.

Fickle fan base.

[objective]

he may be a fraudulent franchise player, but as long as Chris Wallace isn't colluding in the Philly head offices on behalf of the Spurs, it's more than reasonable to presume that he's not getting dumped for Tiago Splitter & cap savings starting a year from now.

[Mal]

RJ is very similar to Igy. Philly isn`t going anywhere with Igy and his 5 years deal. They can get only 2 year contract instead. This season is done for them. Next year shouldnt be better. With RJ`s contract and without Dalembert`s and Igoudala`s, they can play theirs younger players, be on same level, take some time and rebuild in 2011.

[Bukefal]

The only player who I wouldn't mind seeing to go right now is RJ, but even then, I don't think we should trade him yet. Not now.

[Mal]

The only player who I wouldn't mind seeing to go right now is RJ, but even then, I don't think we should trade him yet. Not now.

3 weeks till deadline. Better start sneaking around right now.

[Danny.Zhu]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yzt4el7

Magic Lineup will be

Howard/Anderson
Ducan/Bass
Lewis/Barnes
Manu/Hill
Nelson/Williams

[My Fault]

coaches can be traded bitch.
And/or teams compensated for the *loss*.

Bosh in place of Popped makes us immediately 10Xs better.

Does it now? :lmao

[ElNono]

Philly's going to dump their 26 year old go-to guy (who averaged 21, 6, and 7 in the playoffs) . . . so they can build around Elton Brand's cap-killing contract and Tiago Splitter?

:lol

Exactly my thoughts... and next year somebody is going to say "we should have traded for Iggy" like it was even a possibility...

[lurker23]

Haven't read through the entire thread, but here's one:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yz4t3sb

Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison for Jefferson, Finley, Mahinmi, and probably a first round pick.

Only reason the Wizards would do this is if they're in complete rebuilding/saving money mode. Would save them ~$2 million for the rest of this year, $8 mil next year, and $15 mil in 2011-12.

[minuzzo21]

We need a big!! Dice sucks..

[lurker23]

Haven't read through the entire thread, but here's one:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yz4t3sb

Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison for Jefferson, Finley, Mahinmi, and probably a first round pick.

Only reason the Wizards would do this is if they're in complete rebuilding/saving money mode. Would save them ~$2 million for the rest of this year, $8 mil next year, and $15 mil in 2011-12.

Or, if you want Haywood and really want to go crazy:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjhdkh7

Butler, Jamison, and Haywood for Jefferson, Finley, Mahinmi, Mason, Ratliff, first round pick, second round pick, a few million dollars, the rights to name and market Tony and Eva's first child, and a partridge in a pear tree.


(Okay, so I don't really expect either of these trades to happen, but we did say to think big. :lol )

[TimDunkem]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ykk4rg6

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Or, if you want Haywood and really want to go crazy:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjhdkh7

Butler, Jamison, and Haywood for Jefferson, Finley, Mahinmi, Mason, Ratliff, first round pick, second round pick, a few million dollars, the rights to name and market Tony and Eva's first child, and a partridge in a pear tree.


(Okay, so I don't really expect either of these trades to happen, but we did say to think big. :lol )

:lol

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Haven't read through the entire thread, but here's one:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yz4t3sb

Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison for Jefferson, Finley, Mahinmi, and probably a first round pick.

Only reason the Wizards would do this is if they're in complete rebuilding/saving money mode. Would save them ~$2 million for the rest of this year, $8 mil next year, and $15 mil in 2011-12.

Damn, that would be a nice boost. :tu

[TD 21]

Of course getting a legitimate #2 big would benefit this team. And if you're talking solely improvement and just giving the team a better chance at a longer more respectable playoff-run, I'd have no argument. But when you're talking Championship, there's just too many issues for them to be shored up with one player (they've just got a bit of an ill-fitted team to go about business as usual).

They just don't have the intelligence, grit and savvy in their supporting cast/role players to make the heady play, rotation or exhibit the proper discipline to carry out a game plan on both ends (when Pop alludes to effort not being a problem, it can be one of two things: They're having mental breakdowns (which can be lack of discipline or intelligence) or they're not physically capable.

While discipline can theoretically be corrected, I'm afraid it's not an either or; the perimeter D lacks size and/or experience in their best defenders and the interior D is obviously lacking. RJ and Tony playing heavy minutes won't help with your defense, either (for different reasons, as RJ is prone to the mental error and lacks the lateral quickness and Tony's just never been more than passable, really, when healthy; which he's not completely)

My argument has never been to say this team was crap; they're not. It's just been my belief from Day-1 that they were a flawed team that was in need of a move, possibly two, to get to a Championship level. Sadly, I had given them the benefit of a doubt because of past greatness, and past accomplishments.

Following this team so closely for so long, I became accustomed to thinking that it was all about them and what they did (it really used to be). But that time has gone. You can't simply say that if all goes to plan, they'll be where they want to be; they're just not that team anymore. They know it, the opposition knows it and now the fans are slowly starting to acknowledge it. All you have to do is look how these middle-of-the-pack teams play the Spurs nowadays; there's no fear-factor or mental-edge preventing them from dropping the Spurs.

The Spurs need more than just a tangible piece, imo; it's the intangibles they've lost that have brought them back to the pack.

You're right and realistically, they're not ever going to get that back during the Duncan era. That's all gone...but that doesn't mean they can't win a different way; they can. I keep going back to it, but if they pulled off that Iguodala/Dalembert trade, that theoretically solves the two biggest needs, set's them up better for the future and gives them a more clearly defined rotation. Iguodala is a younger, better version of Jefferson. Essentially, he's what the Spurs and the fans hoped Jefferson would be for this team. Assuming it happens (I know, it's a long shot), are you telling me (maybe they don't pull it all together this year, but either this year or next year) this isn't theoretically a legit contender?

Starters: PF- Duncan, SF- Iguodala, C- Dalembert, SG- Finley, PG- Parker

Bench (rotation): SG- Ginobili, PF- McDyess, PG/SG- Hill

Bench (out of rotation): PF- Blair, SG- Bogans, C- Ratliff, SG/SF- Hairston

Inactive: C/PF- Mahinmi

This would be the likely playoff rotation. For the remainder of the regular season, Blair and Bogans could continue to be in the rotation, so as to limit the workload of the top eight.

[Blackjack]

You're right and realistically, they're not ever going to get that back during the Duncan era. That's all gone...but that doesn't mean they can't win a different way; they can. I keep going back to it, but if they pulled off that Iguodala/Dalembert trade, that theoretically solves the two biggest needs, set's them up better for the future and gives them a more clearly defined rotation. Iguodala is a younger, better version of Jefferson. Essentially, he's what the Spurs and the fans hoped Jefferson would be for this team. Assuming it happens (I know, it's a long shot), are you telling me (maybe they don't pull it all together this year, but either this year or next year) this isn't theoretically a legit contender?

Starters: PF- Duncan, SF- Iguodala, C- Dalembert, SG- Finley, PG- Parker

Bench (rotation): SG- Ginobili, PF- McDyess, PG/SG- Hill

Bench (out of rotation): PF- Blair, SG- Bogans, C- Ratliff, SG/SF- Hairston

Inactive: C/PF- Mahinmi

This would be the likely playoff rotation. For the remainder of the regular season, Blair and Bogans could continue to be in the rotation, so as to limit the workload of the top eight.

I actually alluded to that being their best option earlier in the thread (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4022277&postcount=206) and you, being one of the friends I've discussed it with, obviously know I'd be in favor of it (even if means next year is when it bears the real fruit).

[TD 21]

I actually alluded to that being their best option earlier in the thread (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4022277&postcount=206) and you, being one of the friends I've discussed it with, obviously know I'd be in favor of it (even if means next year is when it bears the real fruit).

I know we've discussed it and you'd be in favor of it, but you don't seem convinced that this hypothetical trade or any realistic transactions for that matter will get this team back to being a certified championship contender. Am I wrong?

[rascal]

But you don't know if an injured (back then) Ginobili was the right trade. For all we know, they could have been asking for Tony. Or wanted the Spurs to also absorb a terrible contract like Kaman's. If it was such a slamdunk trade for the Clips, well, we still have the assets to do it, and I don't see them making Marcus available.

I look at the Clips and I see they already have the very talented, injury prone guard in BDiddy. They have a promising guy in Gordon. Now they have Kaman with a bad contract which I assume it's gonna be the first guy they want to get rid of when Griffin plays next season. Camby has a great contract. I don't see why they would want to move him at all.



They would not be trading Camby and Kaman. That doesn't make any sense for them to move Both those guys. Now, since Blake is out for the year it is harder to get Camby but last summer after they drafted Blake that was the time to make a strong play for Camby.

[Blackjack]

I think it's doubtful for this year to win a Championship by adding the needed pieces and ingredients; not impossible, but highly unlikely.

But if you can get AI and Dalembert for the type of package you suggest, you do it in a heartbeat (maybe they don't win it all this year, but you build for next year with the time they have left and maybe even get and extended playoff-run that could propel a team the following year).

I haven't stuck a fork in this team and called a close to the Duncan era. But, realistically, I know that it's going to take some bold action and a considerable amount of good fortune; an acquisition like you've mentioned, could very well cover both fronts.

[MaNu4Tres]

But if you can get AI and Dalembert for the type of package you suggest, you do it in a heartbeat (maybe they don't win it all this year, but you build for next year with the time they have left and maybe even get and extended playoff-run that could propel a team the following year).



I agree.

RJ/ Bonner/ Finley or Mason for Iggy and Dalembert works and would improve two needs.

[024]

Philly's going to dump their 26 year old go-to guy (who averaged 21, 6, and 7 in the playoffs) . . . so they can build around Elton Brand's cap-killing contract and Tiago Splitter?

:lol
it's not like philly will ever get rid of elton brand's cap killing contract. iguodala is the only cap killer they can move. they've already signaled that iguodala can be had for the right price. this team is not going anywhere this year or the next and already rank at the bottom in attendance. they have nothing to lose. iguodala isn't a franchise player nor a good first option. he is a second option and i'm not even sure if he can be an all star yet. i can think of 7-8 guards that are better than him currently and 3-4 that will surely surpass him in a few years.

sixers are dangling iguodala to get rid of dalmebert as well, saving them $12 million next year. jefferson won't be a bad option for the next two years when they are in rebuilding mode to score some points and wow the crowd with his dunks. after next year, they can start rebuilding. add in a first round pick and splitter, it might be something worth having. splitter and marc gasol were considered the two best young centers outside the nba. if philly thinks splitter can be anything close to gasol, then it would get them pretty excited. maybe they want blair instead of splitter. for iggy and dalembert, i'll go for the trade.

for the spurs, this would pretty much be the last gamble they can take. iguodala's 5 year contract would make or break this team. for the sixers, they have been teetering between the playoffs and the lottery the last few years, unable to make real progress in the playoffs and unable to secure a talented player because they didn't suck enough to acquire a high draft pick. after the elton brand disaster, they need to start rebuilding.

[objective]

there has to be so much better deals for Iguodala . . .

I don't see how it's even reasonable that the Spurs could get him with Jefferson and whatever other throw-ins (Splitter, Mahinmi, Blair).

If I'm wrong, I'll change my screen-name to "I was wrong about Iggy"

[lennyalderette]

if we traded tony for a solid 7fter and a back up poinguard we would win alot more games. i say we trade parker for an upcoming dominant big. our best bet

[lennyalderette]

parker and some of our scrubs but, believe me a team will definitely want parker

[TJastal]

if we traded tony for a solid 7fter and a back up poinguard we would win alot more games. i say we trade parker for an upcoming dominant big. our best bet

Parker and <insert expiring contract here> for Biedrins and Stephen Jackson, and a backup point guard. Oh wait, too late for that...

[ForeignFan]

For those who want to trade vs first round picks, any clue how good will the next draft be?
Apart from Tim, Blair and Hill, probably everyone else could move, though Manu can still be excellent (in limited minutes) and I assume Parker should be able to get back to 2009's shape (in particular if he does not play this summer with French NT).

[TJastal]

Trading Parker now wouldn't be wise. Everyone is aware of his foot problems and your not going to get much in return. Maybe next year he'll be healthy again, but its becoming clear that this season he's not the same player that he has been and the spurs are stuck with him and the realization that another year of Duncan's few remaining is again circling the drain.

[Big P]

Travis Outlaw from Portland is on the block, we could definitly use someone like him.

[rascal]

Travis Outlaw from Portland is on the block, we could definitly use someone like him.

Outlaw will not put the spurs over the top.

[baseline bum]

Outlaw will not put the spurs over the top.

It'd be a hell of a first step. As long as Parker's speed and lift is gone, there isn't a trade short of Parker for Chris Paul that would put the Spurs over the top.

[HarlemHeat37]

Travis Outlaw plays worse D than Jefferson..he also absolutely needs the ball in his hands to be effective, which is a problem we already have with Jefferson..what's the point of adding him?..

[ace3g]

and he is coming off injury for the Blazers

[dbestpro]

Trade for Haywood and tell Pop he is a shooting guard so Pop will play him thinking its small ball.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lol

[Big P]

Outlaw will not put the spurs over the top.

And armed with Mason, Finley & bonner, who do you see us getting that would put us "over the top". Sorry thats a weak statement, the RJ trade was supposed to put us over the top, if he isn't going to put us "over the top", no one is, I'm not really sure who you are expecting the Spurs to get..you are setting yourself up to be very disappointed.

[outmap]

Parker and Dice for:
- Butler and Haywood of WAS.
- Wallace and Chandler of CHA.
- Granger and Foster of IND.
- Deng and Noah of CHI.
- Iguodala and Speights of PHI.
- Maggette and Biedrins of GSW.
- Stoudemire and Dudley of PHO.
- Martin and Thompson of SAC.
- Gay and Randolph of MEM.
- Wade and Beasley of MIA.
- Jefferson and Gomez of MIN.

[TimDunkem]

Parker and Dice for:
- Butler and Haywood of WAS.
- Wallace and Chandler of CHA.
- Granger and Foster of IND.
- Deng and Noah of CHI.
- Iguodala and Speights of PHI.
- Maggette and Biedrins of GSW.
- Stoudemire and Dudley of PHO.
- Martin and Thompson of SAC.
- Gay and Randolph of MEM.
- Wade and Beasley of MIA.
- Jefferson and Gomez of MIN.
All of those are horrible. Are you kidding? :lol

[Chieflion]

All of those are horrible. Are you kidding? :lol
I will agree it is mostly terrible for the other team, especially the one where we give up Parker for Wade and Dice for Beasley.