Dirk

[DAF86]

mogro bullyin dese niggaz

Mogrovejo please give us your opinion about the Manu's best/Dirk's best debate.

[dirk4mvp]

Mogrovejo please give us your opinion about the Manu's best/Dirk's best debate.

lol asking for help

[DAF86]

OK, so if you only include Manu's best season and compare it to Dirk's entire career, good or bad season, he's a more efficient scorer. Gotcha.

No, I'm comparing Manu's career TS% stat to Dirk's career TS% to say that Manu is just as efficient as Dirk scoring the ball. And I brought that Manu's season to show you that he can keep scoring at an efficient rate even when he has more responsabilites and is a number one option on offense.

[endrity]

DAF, Dirk's best seasons are league leading PER seasons. TWICE!

If your argument is that Manu can score efficiently too because he had one season with 20pts, well dude get in line!

Dirk has been averaging close/over to 25 for what, 6-7 years now, and is the symbol of doing so efficiently.

I still don't know what your argument is. At his best means what? Dirk is more clutch, has scored more, and done so more efficiently than anyone in the league at times, doing this while being the focus of defenses for a decade now. How is Manu better man?

And this comes from a guy who absolutely loves Manu, back from his Virtus days. But these is beyond ridiculous and homerish. This argument has no base, statistical or otherwise.

[Findog]

Mogrovejo please give us your opinion about the Manu's best/Dirk's best debate.

"Help me Mogrovejo!":(

[Findog]

No, I'm comparing Manu's career TS% stat to Dirk's career TS% to say that Manu is just as efficient as Dirk scoring the ball.

while omitting turnovers.

[endrity]

No, I'm comparing Manu's career TS% stat to Dirk's career TS% to say that Manu is just as efficient as Dirk scoring the ball. And I brought that Manu's season to show you that he can keep scoring at an efficient rate even when he has more responsabilites and is a number one option on offense.

But clearly, that's not the whole story is it. As someone said Kendrick Perkins has a higher TS%. Manu has, at times, reached a TS% similar to Dirk. Dirk, does it every day, every play down the court. He does it while taking the more difficult shots, while being the focus of defenses. With all these, Dirk outperforms Manu efficiency wise by a WIDE margin.

[DAF86]

lol asking for help

I just found funny that Ghazi thinks I'm a shitty poster for the lone reason of the Dirk/Manu debate and yet he has (like I do) Mogrovejo in such a high regard even though he thinks exactly as I do on this subject.

[endrity]

I just found funny that Ghazi thinks I'm a shitty poster for the lone reason of the Dirk/Manu debate and yet he has (like I do) Mogrovejo in such a high regard even though he thinks exactly as I do on this subject.

I hold Mo to a high regard to, and he also would be wildly mistaken if he thinks like you on the topic.

[DAF86]

while omitting turnovers.

And you omit assist.

We have already gone through this, I don't feel like arguing about it again.

[Findog]

And you omit assist.

We have already gone through this, I don't feel like arguing about it again.

I don't either. If you can't get it, you can't get it. Assists have nothing to do with scoring efficiency.

[DAF86]

But clearly, that's not the whole story is it. As someone said Kendrick Perkins has a higher TS%. Manu has, at times, reached a TS% similar to Dirk. Dirk, does it every day, every play down the court. He does it while taking the more difficult shots, while being the focus of defenses. With all these, Dirk outperforms Manu efficiency wise by a WIDE margin.

Well, Manu has to have done it at a pretty consistent rate too to have a higher TS% than Dirk.

[DAF86]

I don't either. If you can't get it, you can't get it. Assists have nothing to do with scoring efficiency.

And TOs have a lot more to do with assist than with scoring efficiency.

[endrity]

Well, Manu has to have done it at a pretty consistent rate too to have a higher TS% than Dirk.

TS% can be gather by 1 shot, it means nothing about sample size.

[Findog]

And TOs have a lot more to do with assist than with scoring efficiency.

Turnovers are relevant to both assist rate and scoring efficiency. Assist rate and scoring efficiency are two different things.

[DAF86]

DAF, Dirk's best seasons are league leading PER seasons. TWICE!

If your argument is that Manu can score efficiently too because he had one season with 20pts, well dude get in line!

Dirk has been averaging close/over to 25 for what, 6-7 years now, and is the symbol of doing so efficiently.

I still don't know what your argument is. At his best means what? Dirk is more clutch, has scored more, and done so more efficiently than anyone in the league at times, doing this while being the focus of defenses for a decade now. How is Manu better man?

And this comes from a guy who absolutely loves Manu, back from his Virtus days. But these is beyond ridiculous and homerish. This argument has no base, statistical or otherwise.

I already explained that also, you can look it up.

One more thing, I don't think Dirk is a choker however shooting less than 40% from the field in the two most important series of your career isn't beign particulary clutch.

[dirk4mvp]

I already explained that also, you can look it up.

One more thing, I don't think Dirk is a choker however shooting less than 40% from the field in the two most important series of your career isn't beign particulary clutch.

How is the 1st round for a guy who's been past the 1st round several times 1 of the 2 most important series he's ever been in?

[Findog]

I already explained that also, you can look it up.

One more thing, I don't think Dirk is a choker however shooting less than 40% from the field in the two most important series of your career isn't beign particulary clutch.

The Warriors series was more important than the Spurs 2006 series?

[DAF86]

How is the 1st round for a guy who's been past the 1st round several times 1 of the 2 most important series he's ever been in?

It was the only series he played in the only season where his team was the favorite to win it all, after beign named the regualar season MVP.

[Henke]

I just found funny that Ghazi thinks I'm a shitty poster for the lone reason of the Dirk/Manu debate and yet he has (like I do) Mogrovejo in such a high regard even though he thinks exactly as I do on this subject.

Can you give me the link to see Mogro's opinion on this subject?

PS:If your source is this post

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4170057&postcount=53

in this topic

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149086

then your guy is boston.balla and not Mogrovejo.

[endrity]

And while he didn't shoot as well as he had during the playoffs in 06, his finals stats are a bit biased by a horrible game 4 which the Mavs conceded at half time.

If you wanna talk about that series, please go look at what he did at the end of game 5, where he kept making plays and Wade hitting free throws. Or at game 6, where he played about as well as you can ask for such an important game. 28 points, on over 50% shooting if I remember correctly.

[Muser]

God dammit, Manu is awesome but Dirk is clearly better.

[DAF86]

Can you give me the link to see Mogro's opinion on this subject?

PS:If your source is this post

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4170057&postcount=53

in this topic

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149086

then your guy is boston.balla and not Mogrovejo.

I don't remember, I think is mogrovejo but I may be wrong :lol

[DAF86]

God dammit, Manu is awesome but Dirk is clearly better.

Why so angry? chill out. It's just my (and some other folks) opinion, nobody is arguing in behalf of you or other Spursfans.

[MavDynasty]

In that poll a few months back about Dirk VS Manu...who won?

I remember it being close tbh :lmao

[Muser]

Not angry at all, it's just a pretty stupid opinion. If Manu is your best player then you are a lottery team.

[DAF86]

Not angry at all, it's just a pretty stupid opinion. If Manu is your best player then you are a lottery team.

If you think that then you're either overrating Dirk or underrating Manu and given that you think that Manu can't lead a team to the playoffs then I would say it's the latter.

[Muser]

Overrating a guy who averages 25/11 in his playoff career, who has been the best player on a 67 win season and who has been the best player on a team that made the finals and beat Ginobili's team on the way. Okay. Could Manu win 67 games as a teams best player?

[DAF86]

Overrating a guy who averages 25/11 in his playoff career, who has been the best player on a 67 win season and who has been the best player on a team that made the finals and beat Ginobili's team on the way. Okay. Could Manu win 67 games as a teams best player?

Since when is basketball an individual sport, I think if you give him the right role players Manu could be the leader of a pretty damn good NBA team.

[DAF86]

Swap Manu with Hamilton and the Pistons are the 2005 NBA champions.

[Muser]

Honest question, if you could build a team around Manu at his peak or Dirk at his peak, would you pick Manu?

[Henke]

And while he didn't shoot as well as he had during the playoffs in 06, his finals stats are a bit biased by a horrible game 4 which the Mavs conceded at half time.

If you wanna talk about that series, please go look at what he did at the end of game 5, where he kept making plays and Wade hitting free throws. Or at game 6, where he played about as well as you can ask for such an important game. 28 points, on over 50% shooting if I remember correctly.

+1

And I wouldn't say shit about that horrible game 4.
Imho the reason for his poor fg% in this series was his 3pt shooting.Dude couldn't hit a 3;he was 5/24 from beyond the arc in the finals.

Dirk missed the free throw to tie in the Game 3 and that's where he really choked.

It's a fucking shame that noone remembers that he made clutch play after clutch play in the Game 5.It wasn't Dirk's fault that the refs gave Wade the god treatment nor that J-Ho is a fucking dipshit.

BTW in Game 6 he scored 29 pts(10/22 fg) and he had 15 rebs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Just for the record:

Dirk is a 46% shooter in the playoffs/he shot on 39% in the Finals.
Timmy is a 50% shooter in the playoffs/he shot on 41.8% in the Finals against Detroit in 2005.
Howard is a 59% shooter in the playoffs/he shot on 48.8% in the Finals last year.
LeBron's fg percentage against Spurs back in 2007 was 35,5%.

It happens.

[DAF86]

Honest question, if you could build a team around Manu at his peak or Dirk at his peak, would you pick Manu?

That's a hard question 'cause Dirk's prime was longer you also have to consider the role players but yeah back in the days I would've chosen Manu at his prime over Dirk at his prime.

I've said it before buit I don't know if you read it, I'm not arguing that Manu's NBA career is better than Dirk's NBA career. I'm arguing that Manu's basketball career is batter than Dirk's basketball career and that Manu's best is better than Dirk's best. Dirk has proven to be more consistent than Manu.

[dickface]

Swap Manu with Hamilton and the Pistons are the 2005 NBA champions.

Swap Robert Horry with air and the Pistons are champs too. What's your point?

[DAF86]

Swap Robert Horry with air and the Pistons are champs too. What's your point?

That Manu would have won a championship as the best player on his team.

[badfish22]

Overrating a guy who averages 25/11 in his playoff career, who has been the best player on a 67 win season and who has been the best player on a team that made the finals and beat Ginobili's team on the way. Okay. Could Manu win 67 games as a teams best player?

muser= reasonable

DAF86= spurfan from Argentina

[DAF86]

badfish22= mavs homer

[badfish22]

badfish22= mavs homer

OK? Anyone can see that Dirk>Manu, besides your Argentinean ass.
I understand that you have liked Manu probably since he started playing ball, but you have taken it to an extreme imho

[badfish22]

Plus I gave you credit for calling you a spursfan. You're more of a Manufan tbh.

[dude1394]

I liked the last game. After every play dirk had to retuck his jersey because the spurs were hanging on to it for dear life and still couldn't stop him.

A foul is a foul no matter what the "type" of shot is...at least in the rulebook I've read. Style points don't really count.

[Ghazi]

That Manu would have won a championship as the best player on his team.

ben wallace > manu tbh

[DAF86]

ben wallace > manu tbh

:lmao

[Dirkadirkastan]

ben wallace > manu tbh

I agree, he's much bigger.

[dickface]

That Manu would have won a championship as the best player on his team.

:lmao Chauncey Billups says hi.

[dickface]

tbh swapping Manu for Rip would KILL the flow of Detroit's offense. Manu can't move without the ball and run through multiple screens, then hit all those quick catch n shoot opportunities the way Rip could. Manu isn't nearly the pure shooter necessary to fill that role, nor does he have the stamina.

[DAF86]

:lmao Chauncey Billups says hi.

Billups wasn't consider (nor he was) a better player than Manu in 2005.

[endrity]

Billups wasn't consider (nor he was) a better player than Manu in 2005.

Because obviously Manu is a better point guard than Chauncey, as evidenced by him awesome ball handling against the Mavs in game 1.

Given that this thread has gone completely off track, I would like to use this opportunity to remind people of some important conclusions.

1. Dirk got his fair share in Game 1. There were no calls that he got which were undeserved. There was no proof presented to show otherwise, and in one case of a grievance video evidence was presented by the accused to show that in fact Mason did commit a foul on Dirk. Even FkLA now believes this!

2. There are problems with consistency of calls in the NBA.

3. Some Spurs fans, but especially BRHornet got to learn the concept of "burden of proof". Given his massive ignorance a friendly advice was presented to him, that he should spend more time investing in his education rather than a basketball forum where he contributes nothing, not even good level troll-ness.

4. Most Spurs fans are in fact reasonable. They would not believe such a thing as Manu>Dirk. Of course there's always a black sheep in the family for any issue.

[spizzle_tronk]

Manu's a career 16 ppg third-wheel guy. That puts him around Ricky Pierce/Cazzie Russell/Richard Dumas territory. Maybe one of the better third wheels of recent memory.

[FkLA]

Yes it does.

No wonder NBA refs are so disliked, most people don't know the basic rules of the game...

Really it says it implicitly? I figured it was implied similar to how to its implied that playoff basketball should be more physical. Link please if you dont mind. Regardless though I doubt it includes body checks.


By the way, here's a video of the highlights. Mason's foul is at about 37 secs

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba...eff&id=5111653

Clearly his arms are hanging over Dirk's head as he is about to go up for the shot.

I told you consistency is a big issue in this league, I also admitted to mistakes at the end of Game 3, 2006. Just as you must admit that Duncan got every possible call and more in the most critical game 7.
Duncan will get his call in the series, he always does. Maybe not in game 2 either, but once the series shifts to SA you'll see that most of the calls will favour the home team.

Wait, so youre defense for that foul call is that the defenders hands need to be straight up in a 90 degree angle and anything less is a foul because they would be invading Dirk's space? That seems pretty ridiculous for a jump shot, I mean given that logic if a guy blocks a shot before the player releases the ball wouldnt that be a foul? Since its practically impossible to block a shot before its out of the players hand standing at a 90 degree angle unless the player jumps straight into your outstretched hands. Correct me if Im wrong but that hand straight up thing only applies in the paint when a player is attacking the basket or if the defender is set with both his feet planted. You wouldve been better off arguing the body check tbh, although upon further review Dirk himself bumps into him so even that argument wouldnt hold much truth. And if we really want to be rulebook nazis Dirk's pushoff to create space is in actuality an offensive foul.

[FkLA]

Regarding Manu vs Dirk...its Dirk but its a lot closer than alot of you Mavette fans claim.

I mean on the one hand you guys penalize Manu for having talent around him (GOAT PF+great scoring PG) yet on the other hand you expect him to put up godly numbers and all-league recognitions like Dirk who's a #1 option? You idiots cant have it both ways. That same talent that you guys penalize him means less touches, which in turn means less stats. Not to mention the fact that he accepted a 6th man role, after his 2005 playoff run and after winning Gold in 2004 nonetheless, for the betterment of the team. How many players of his caliber would be willing to do that? That is something he should be given props for not penalized. Every time he has been given big minutes and a big role he has performed, so it has little to do with his ability.

Also what exactly drives some of you morons to suggest that a team with him as the #1 guy would be a lottery team...is it his performance in 2004 where he led an Argentinian team that had NBA players but certainly wasnt the most talentled in the competition to gold? Is it his titles he got in Europe as a #1 guy? Is it this late run this year where the Spurs completely turned their season around when he was given the reins? He and his teams have been fairly successful each and every time that he has been the guy so wtf makes some of you idiots think a prime Manu wouldnt be able to carry a team? Give him a solid #2 post prescence along with solid role players just like Kobe, Wade, and any great guard short of MJ have had and his team would be competitive. Whether that team would win a title is arguable, but than again when has Dirk ever won a title.

[endrity]

Really it says it implicitly? I figured it was implied similar to how to its implied that playoff basketball should be more physical. Link please if you dont mind. Regardless though I doubt it includes body checks.



Wait, so youre defense for that foul call is that the defenders hands need to be straight up in a 90 degree angle and anything less is a foul because they would be invading Dirk's space? That seems pretty ridiculous for a jump shot, I mean given that logic if a guy blocks a shot before the player releases the ball wouldnt that be a foul? Since its practically impossible to block a shot before its out of the players hand standing at a 90 degree angle unless the player jumps straight into your outstretched hands. Correct me if Im wrong but that hand straight up thing only applies in the paint when a player is attacking the basket or if the defender is set with both his feet planted. You wouldve been better off arguing the body check tbh, although upon further review Dirk himself bumps into him so even that argument wouldnt hold much truth. And if we really want to be rulebook nazis Dirk's pushoff to create space is in actuality an offensive foul.

No, it's an offensive foul only when Mason has an established position, which Mason clearly doesn't, and they are fighting to get to a spot on the court.

Yes, hands have to be straight up and it's pretty reasonable. If they are above my head and as I go up for a shot my head or the rest of the body is hit by them, which is what happens to add to the body check, it's clearly impeding my ability to get of a shot. And no, basketball players are taught at a very young age to always keep their hands straight up no matter the place on the court. So your distinction doesn't apply here.

Sorry, but that's a textbook foul. And that's what you're gonna get all series long if you keep sending players half a foot shorter than Dirk to defend him. These guys have no real chance on defense on Dirk, other than to get underneath him and try to be physical which clearly raises the probability of committing a foul.

Is is that much a surprise that Dirk gets a lot of fouls on Spurs called this way? After all these years in the reg season and the playoffs do you honestly believe that the refs are out to help Dirk specifically against the Spurs moreso than against other teams at times? Or is it more likely that you have yet to find a decent, just decent, defender to put on Dirk, but rely on people who are physically overmatched when guarding him? By 06 Dirk had completely solved the Bowen/Marion types of defenders. Yet you guys keep throwing these types of players at him, actually even worse than Bowen in their ability to defend, and are honestly this surprised? This is even worse than Nellie complaining about calls Shaq would get when we put 6'4 people on him early in the decade.

[mogrovejo]

I'm not sure what you're discussing. It's always been my opinion that Ginobili is hugely underrated - due to the circumstances of his NBA career. I'll elaborate on this later.

FKLA,

From the NBA rules book:


Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extend-ed outside the Lower Defensive Box.
(2) A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
(3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of main-taining a defensive position.
(4) A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of main-taining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dis-lodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

[FkLA]

No, it's an offensive foul only when Mason has an established position, which Mason clearly doesn't, and they are fighting to get to a spot on the court.

Yes, hands have to be straight up and it's pretty reasonable. If they are above my head and as I go up for a shot my head or the rest of the body is hit by them, which is what happens to add to the body check, it's clearly impeding my ability to get of a shot. And no, basketball players are taught at a very young age to always keep their hands straight up no matter the place on the court. So your distinction doesn't apply here.

Sorry, but that's a textbook foul. And that's what you're gonna get all series long if you keep sending players half a foot shorter than Dirk to defend him. These guys have no real chance on defense on Dirk, other than to get underneath him and try to be physical which clearly raises the probability of committing a foul.

Is is that much a surprise that Dirk gets a lot of fouls on Spurs called this way? After all these years in the reg season and the playoffs do you honestly believe that the refs are out to help Dirk specifically against the Spurs moreso than against other teams at times? Or is it more likely that you have yet to find a decent, just decent, defender to put on Dirk, but rely on people who are physically overmatched when guarding him? By 06 Dirk had completely solved the Bowen/Marion types of defenders. Yet you guys keep throwing these types of players at him, actually even worse than Bowen in their ability to defend, and are honestly this surprised? This is even worse than Nellie complaining about calls Shaq would get when we put 6'4 people on him early in the decade.

Well Dirk is the one with his head down and bulldozing through Mason, so its kind of hard to establish postition considering that. And right before the shot Mason is in front of him and Dirk does push his body into him to create the space. Whatever though I thought it was a good no call, Im just saying if we use your rulebook nazi logic that is a foul. If the refs are going to be rulebook nazis they need to be that on every possession and not just in favor of Dirk.

Regarding the hands straight up thing...sorry but thats ridiculous. Do you have have any idea how small the percentage of perimeter players that contest a jump shot with their hands straight up is? Look at any highlight of any game, hands on contested shots are rarely ever in a 90 degree angle. Practically every fucking shot attempt would be a foul using that invading air space logic. Its silly really. Like I said accept and be grateful that Dirk gets bogus calls and move on, no need to defend the indefensible.

[endrity]

I'm not sure what you're discussing. It's always been my opinion that Ginobili is hugely underrated - due to the circumstances of his NBA career. I'll elaborate on this later.

FKLA,

From the NBA rules book:


Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extend-ed outside the Lower Defensive Box.
(2) A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
(3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of main-taining a defensive position.
(4) A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of main-taining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dis-lodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

First of all thanks for actually going and finding the rules. Couldn't be bothered to.

Second, on Manu. I will agree that his circumstances have made his career a bit underrated, coming to the NBA late, being in a contender, allowing Pop to use him as a bench player etc. He clearly is a great player, and in a team all of his own could have easily averaged 22-23 pts at least. In a fair world he would have 4-5 All Star appearances and All-NBA teams.

The question is not this however. It's whether he is better than Dirk, career wise, or at their absolute best-wise. That, to me and others, seems far fetched. Do you disagree with that?

[FkLA]

Keep in mind, this isnt Phil Jackson...Pop rarely makes statements like these about opposing players and even here he tries to say it in the most subtle way.


"What you can do is not foul him to death," Popovich said. "I thought sometimes we fouled him, sometimes we didn't. But you know what's going to happen in a game. You get calls one way or the other. He's great at selling it. He did a good job of shooting the basketball, getting in positions to get fouled, all that sort of thing. And we didn't play him very smart in that respect. We put him on the line more than we should have. He did make some tough shots there, no doubt about it, but he's also a Hall-of-Fame player so he's going to make those shots. It's not like it's the first time he's made a tough shot, that's for sure." http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4668385/pop-on-dirk-hes-great-at-selling-it


I'm not sure what you're discussing. It's always been my opinion that Ginobili is hugely underrated - due to the circumstances of his NBA career. I'll elaborate on this later.

FKLA,

From the NBA rules book:


Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extend-ed outside the Lower Defensive Box.
(2) A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
(3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of main-taining a defensive position.
(4) A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of main-taining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dis-lodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

I figured that much (the forearm on the back part)...I was referring to more body contact though (body checking). For instance the defender having his hands straight up but crowding the offensive player with his body--a call that Dirk gets alot out on the perimeter but that for some reason is allowed in the paint despite it not being implicitly stated in the rulebook.

[mogrovejo]

I believe I was the one being asked to find the rules.

Ginobili to me has been a top-10, top-15 player in the NBA for most of his career. Top-10 in his best years. If he was playing 36 mpg, as the primary playmaker/shotcreator for his team, as the uncontested best player in his team, as most of the guys in his talent tier are, he'd put up 23/6/6 numbers + above average defense and his reputation would be completely different. He'd have a couple All-NBA teams under his belt.

Nowitzki was an outside contender for the MVP for some years, top-5 player. Not a strong contender because doesn't do nothing besides scoring at a MVP level. All-NBA level for basically the entire decade. So I think Nowitzki has been a step above Ginobili for most of his career. Not 2 or 3 steps though.

I think Ginobili in his prime was a better player than anyone in the Pistons championship team.

[mogrovejo]

I said after the game that the Spurs defenders weren't disciplined and smart enough defending Dirk. Use your hips, don't reach with your hands. Of course he's going to sell the fouls, it's his job.

[endrity]

FkLA, I don't know why Pop is held to a different level of scrutiny than PJax. Every coach tries to get an advantage from the refs.

What he is saying is pretty much what I said earlier. If you put guys like these on Dirk, then they have to be near perfect in defense not to get called for fouls. And of course Dirk is gonna sell any contact, if he got it why not?

Mo, we clearly have a disagreement on Dirk as evidenced by a Dirk v. KG debate we had some weeks ago here. I am not getting into that now, it's 3 am over here anyway. Thank you for admitting that Dirk is a superior player to Manu at the very least.

One little fact though, at his prime Dirk was not an outside contender for MVP. He was three times in the top 3, winning once. That is a front runner to me. He led the league twice in PER, so whatever he does out there, he is one hell of an efficient machine.

[FkLA]

I said after the game that the Spurs defenders weren't disciplined and smart enough defending Dirk. Use your hips, don't reach with your hands. Of course he's going to sell the fouls, it's his job.

My point exactly with the hips (body checks)...


You do know that considering how Dirk goes flying after his release, even when players simply use their hips and thrust themselves onto Dirk to crowd him its normally a foul? Hence this thread on why I think Dirk is a severely underrated flopper.


FkLA, I don't know why Pop is held to a different level of scrutiny than PJax. Every coach tries to get an advantage from the refs.

What he is saying is pretty much what I said earlier. If you put guys like these on Dirk, then they have to be near perfect in defense not to get called for fouls. And of course Dirk is gonna sell any contact, if he got it why not?


It holds alot more weight coming from Pop dont you think? PJ will whine about opposing players and refs numerous times a series, Pop not so much.

So you agree that he is an underrated flopper, which was the reason behind this thread?

[mogrovejo]

One little fact though, at his prime Dirk was not an outside contender for MVP. He was three times in the top 3, winning once. That is a front runner to me. He led the league twice in PER, so whatever he does out there, he is one hell of an efficient machine.

Yeah, I know, I wasn't talking from a formal perspective. I thought there were always 2/3 guys a step above Dirk every season though.

[endrity]

My point exactly with the hips (body checks)...


You do know that considering how Dirk goes flying after his release, even when players simply use their hips and thrust themselves onto Dirk to crowd him its normally a foul? Hence this thread on why I think Dirk is a severely underrated flopper.



It holds alot more weight coming from Pop dont you think? PJ will whine about opposing players and refs numerous times a series, Pop not so much.

So you agree that he is an underrated flopper, which was the reason behind this thread?

the reason of the thread was that Dirk got calls in Game 1 he didn't deserve. It's been established he didn't. Every player flops/sells contact. Superstars, given they have the ball in their hands more than anyone, do even more so. Duncan, Kobe, Melo, Wade, CP3 all do. Even LeBron protested he didn't get the callls he deserves. Damn, Durant is becoming great at selling contact in just his third year, so much so that you can't even breathe on the guy.

[endrity]

Yeah, I know, I wasn't talking from a formal perspective. I thought there were always 2/3 guys a step above Dirk every season though.

PER wise not in 06 and 07.

And even on a more subjective level, only Kobe arguably had a better individual season in 06 which was overshadowed by the horrible team he played in. Don't even know what to say about 07. Dirk was about as focused as you can be all season long. He, more than anyone else, was the reason for the Mavs going on a 50-5 run at one point. Anyway, I am not getting into this now. Some other day ok?

p.s I haven't heard your Euroleague predictions yet. I've had this feeling for some reason that CSKA is going to ruin the party again for Barca.

[mavsfan1000]

Dirk is amazing. By far our best player.

[Ghazi]

Dirk is amazing. By far our best player.

only cause J-Ho was traded

LMAO J-Ho > Dirk

[ezau]

Dirk doesn't know anything but to score. He is highly talented, but I still think he's overrated for much of his career. Check his playoff performance and you can the read the word choke written all over it

[mavsfan1000]

only cause J-Ho was traded

LMAO J-Ho > Dirk
You don't remember how good Howard was at one point I guess. He was a lockdown defender, rebounder, and scorer. He had it all. We were 2 games from the championship and he was a big part of it. Also I hate some of the mavs fans on this site and like to troll. lol

[endrity]

Dirk doesn't know anything but to score. He is highly talented, but I still think he's overrated for much of his career. Check his playoff performance and you can the read the word choke written all over it

This shit again??? I was actually pleased at the highly intellectual level this thread reached with FkLA and Mogrojevo.

Dirk easily outperforms his regular season stats, is a 25 and 11 guy in the playoffs putting him in some really rare company.

But you'd be well advised to read what the thread was about. Given the threads you start on the Spurs section you definitely need some better information regarding what a foul is in the NBA.

[dude1394]

Pops works the refs just like every other coach. Thinking that somehow pop "doesn't" is very selective memory.

[dirk4mvp]

. Check his playoff performance and you can the read the word choke written all over it

You mean where he's one of a handful of guys who averages 25 and 11 in the postseason? Are you retarded?

[dude1394]

You mean where he's one of a handful of guys who averages 25 and 11 in the postseason? Are you retarded?

I think the term is special.

[dirk4mvp]

I think the term is special.

Interchangeable, tbh.

[ezau]

This shit again??? I was actually pleased at the highly intellectual level this thread reached with FkLA and Mogrojevo.

Dirk easily outperforms his regular season stats, is a 25 and 11 guy in the playoffs putting him in some really rare company.

But you'd be well advised to read what the thread was about. Given the threads you start on the Spurs section you definitely need some better information regarding what a foul is in the NBA.

You can suck Dirk's ball all you want but nothing can erase what happened in 2006 and 2007. Dirk will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Unless of course he gets his shit together by winning an LOB. If he wins a championship, no one's going to question his greatness as a player ever.

[badfish22]

typical spurfan way of thinking

[ezau]

I think the term is special.

Special, but ringless. Guys like Barkley, Stockton, Malone, and Dirk belong in one cluter.

[endrity]

You can suck Dirk's ball all you want but nothing can erase what happened in 2006 and 2007. Dirk will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Unless of course he gets his shit together by winning an LOB. If he wins a championship, no one's going to question his greatness as a player ever.

I'll stick to my facts, you stick to your urban myths :toast

[ezau]

I'll stick to my facts, you stick to your urban myths :toast

Dirk being ringless is an irrefutable fact:toast

[badfish22]

bukkake

http://vimeo.com/11094721

[endrity]

Dirk being ringless is an irrefutable fact:toast

which clearly depends on so many more factors than simply Dirk's abilities :toast

[ezau]

which clearly depends on so many more factors than simply Dirk's abilities :toast

Only bitchy Mavs fans will go to great lengths explaining their team's ineptness to win a title. At the end of the day, if your main man can't bring you to the promised land, he's simply not good enough. I'm talking about your 7'0 jump-shooting big man who hasn't done shit in 12 years in the league. :toast
As good as Dirk is, he's just like Gasol in so many aspects. Highly skilled, supremely talented, but not good enough to win a title as the team's leader. If Dirk fails to win a championship this year, he ain't gonna win it ever:toast

[badfish22]

Drive For Five!!

[ezau]

Drive For Five!!

2006 and 2007!

[dirk4mvp]

Special, but ringless. Guys like Barkley, Stockton, Malone, and Dirk belong in one cluter.

Does your brain realize that he was referring to you being special as in mentally handicapped?

[dude1394]

It will be a pleasure to put the spurs out of their misery again. Dirk..

[timvpimp]

Only bitchy Mavs fans will go to great lengths explaining their team's ineptness to win a title. At the end of the day, if your main man can't bring you to the promised land, he's simply not good enough. I'm talking about your 7'0 jump-shooting big man who hasn't done shit in 12 years in the league. :toast
As good as Dirk is, he's just like Gasol in so many aspects. Highly skilled, supremely talented, but not good enough to win a title as the team's leader. If Dirk fails to win a championship this year, he ain't gonna win it ever:toast
I don't see Mavs win champ this year but their future won't be too grim in my humble points of views. Dampier is bound to be removed when the season is done, and presumably the exchanger will be another big name. Dirk's well above 30 but you would be nuts if you think Dirk doesn't have as much left in tank as Duncan has. Duncan has a couple more decent seasons to play and so does Dirk, especially considering Dirk isn't that sort of player who bases his games totally on athleticism.

[timvpimp]

Dirk doesn't know anything but to score. He is highly talented, but I still think he's overrated for much of his career. Check his playoff performance and you can the read the word choke written all over it
As badly as the team sucked in these two shameful playoff runs, Dirk would be the last guy to entitled "choker" if you had checked his stats in those games. It wasn't Dirk who bricked shot after shot, and it also wasn't him who got curbstomped inside by those werewolves. They lost in 06 due mainly to the horrible officiating, 07's lose was more of the consequence of Don's knowing about the Mavs and their flaws than anything else.

[Jacob1983]

I think it's funny how Spurs fans always rag on Mavs fans about complaining about the refs in the 2006 Finals yet the Spurs fans do the same thing about the refs in the 2006 second round matchup between the Spurs and the Mavs. Interesting. There were only two teams that beat the Spurs in the playoffs in the 2000s: The Lakers and the Mavs. You can't count the Suns in 2000 because Duncan did not play in that series. Spurs fans need to give 2006 a rest. When you get get screwed by the refs in the Finals, then you will share the Mavs' pain. It's hard for me to have sympathy for the Spurs fans when it comes to complaining about the refs because at the end of the day, your team still has 4 championships. Don't really see why you want to complain when you and your team had it pretty well in the last decade.

[ezau]

I don't see Mavs win champ this year but their future won't be too grim in my humble points of views. Dampier is bound to be removed when the season is done, and presumably the exchanger will be another big name. Dirk's well above 30 but you would be nuts if you think Dirk doesn't have as much left in tank as Duncan has. Duncan has a couple more decent seasons to play and so does Dirk, especially considering Dirk isn't that sort of player who bases his games totally on athleticism.

I didn't say it's gonna be apocalypse if the Mavettes fail to win a championship this year. However, if their team, which is already stacked at the moment still fails to win championship, they're not gonna win it as long as Dirk is their main man. Sadly, Dirk can't play the alpha dog role that the Mavs want him to be.

[rasho8]

As badly as the team sucked in these two shameful playoff runs, Dirk would be the last guy to entitled "choker" if you had checked his stats in those games. It wasn't Dirk who bricked shot after shot, and it also wasn't him who got curbstomped inside by those werewolves. They lost in 06 due mainly to the horrible officiating, 07's lose was more of the consequence of Don's knowing about the Mavs and their flaws than anything else.

No but wasnt it him who curb stomped the stationary bike? YEAH FUCK YOU EXCERCISE BIKE!! WHAM!! WHERE IS MY FOUL CALL?!?!

:flag:

[Ghazi]

I didn't say it's gonna be apocalypse if the Mavettes fail to win a championship this year. However, if their team, which is already stacked at the moment still fails to win championship, they're not gonna win it as long as Dirk is their main man. Sadly, Dirk can't play the alpha dog role that the Mavs want him to be.

Can you save that for when Dirk has a bad game instead of right after he drops 36 points on 14 shots against your team?

LMAO Spurs :lmao :lmao

[tdunk21]

06 choke nowitzki....

[ezau]

Can you save that for when Dirk has a bad game instead of right after he drops 36 points on 14 shots against your team?

LMAO Spurs :lmao :lmao

Well that's what he does. Dominate the offensive side of things and disappear when on the verge of winning a championship. I hope he proves me wrong, but well, he still hasn't won a ring after 12 years. The clock is ticking Mavs fans

[darkwitzki]

Well that's what he does. Dominate the offensive side of things and disappear when on the verge of winning a championship. I hope he proves me wrong, but well, he still hasn't won a ring after 12 years. The clock is ticking Mavs fans

Surrender your ass (rather than butt kicking) in this B O 7 series Spurfans, and will knock the Lakers in the WCF,then crush whom we will face in the East in the finals. :nope

[oh crap]

I'm not even that big of a Dirk fan. He was my least favorite of the old big 3.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11905

:wow

mav fan a dirk hater??? discuss.

[Muser]

How does least favorite means he hates him? Parker is probably my least favorite of the big 3 but I still like him.

[DAF86]

The question is not this however. It's whether he is better than Dirk, career wise, or at their absolute best-wise. That, to me and others, seems far fetched. Do you disagree with that?

Serious question: So I'd like for you to give me an honest answer.

What career would you like to have?

Euroleague champion with MVP, Olympic gold medal with MVP, three NBA championships beign a vital player of that team not just a role player (one vote away of finals MVP in '05). Hall of Famer not for his NBA career but for his overall basketball career.

or

NBA MVP, one time NBA finalist, lots of all-stars and all-NBA teams, Hall of Famer for his NBA career.

Dirk's individual NBA career > Manu's individual NBA career (although I'd rather have the championships than the stats)

But imho, Manu's basketball career > Dirk's basketball career

[DAF86]

Because obviously Manu is a better point guard than Chauncey, as evidenced by him awesome ball handling against the Mavs in game 1.

WTF does that have to do with the fact that Manu is a better player than Billups?

[dirk4mvp]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11905

:wow

mav fan a dirk hater??? discuss.

tbh your brain would turn into puddle if you tried to comprehend that some Spurfans lean that way about Duncan.

[diego]

dirk is a very good player, very unique too.

but some people in this thread are acting like he is perfect. he can make poor decisions with the ball and his perimeter oriented style negates some of his value as a big man, not to mention his poor defense which is very important at his position. also, to say that his team hasnt made it all the way solely because of his teammates is also weak. he has one of the biggest spending owners in the league and has played with MVPs, HOFers, all nbaers, all stars, the works. remember the fab five mavs? out in the first round if memory serves... not every team can win, but only one finals appearance and one WCF? malone, barkley et all had more success than that. an honest mav fan will admit to a lot of disappointment, unless they never had hope to begin with. is dirk solely responsible? no. but he isnt without blame either. also, when dirk gets frustrated on the court he loses his composure and has thrown his teammates under the bus on more than one occasion, on the court and in press conferences.

I'm argentine, yes, but if I had to start a team I would take Dirk- bigmen are more scarce and you dont pass on a near double double and matchup nightmare, whereas an all around, heady two guard like manu dont grow on trees but are still easier to find than an all-nba forward.

that said, I also think manu has more of a winners, killers mentality, that he is the more versatile player, the more exciting player, and that he's had a better career. I'm 100% sure dirk would trade his MVP for manu's olympic gold and 3 rings any day of the week. for one game peak vs peak, manu + scrubs vs dirk + scrubs, I'd probably bet on manu, even if dirk's odds are better to win- i'd rather root for the player who is trying to do everything and playing balls to the wall, than the guy who does two things (jumpers and rebounds) with finesse. finesse is beautiful and great for the body, but it doesnt win battles like balls to the wall does.

and for those that will argue that point, I bet that manu will finish this series with more points in the paint than dirk despite dirk's height advantage, his advantage as 1st option, and his advantage playing more minutes. total points in the paint manu will have more. also, manu will have more blocks + steals than dirk, despite the aforementioned advantages. mav fans have been harping on and on about how the spurs dont have the personnel to guard dirk, so dont use duncan or whoever as an excuse afterwards.

[badfish22]

I'm 100% sure dirk would trade his MVP for manu's olympic gold and 3 rings any day of the week.

The difference between those is one is a individual award and the other are team awards. Not really a good comparison at all.

[DAF86]

The difference between those is one is a individual award and the other are team awards. Not really a good comparison at all.

But a good point when you talk about who had the best basketball career which is the point that endrity brought up.

[badfish22]

But a good point when you talk about who had the best basketball career which is the point that endrity brought up.

Yeah but he won it as a 2nd/3rd guy. We're comparing who was the better player (lol) not who played on the better team.

[ezau]

Manu three rings
Dirk one big fat O

[ElNono]

Yeah but he won it as a 2nd/3rd guy. We're comparing who was the better player (lol) not who played on the better team.

Hmm, he was the 2nd/3rd guy when he won his Olympic medals?

[ezau]

Yeah but he won it as a 2nd/3rd guy. We're comparing who was the better player (lol) not who played on the better team.

Manu is clearly the best player of the Argentine National team. Were you too bust watching Dirk lose to China and the rest of the world for you to not know that?

[La Mont]

Manu is clearly the best player of the Argentine National team. Were you too bust watching Dirk lose to China and the rest of the world for you to not know that?
this.

[Jacob1983]

I don't get why people rag on Dirk about being a perimeter oriented type of player. That's his style. That's what he's good at. I mean if he was a dominant inside force, he would be in the paint more and shooting jump shots and 3's. I think Dirk is a great player and probably a hall of famer but I will admit that he isn't a dominant inside force. He loves the perimeter mainly because its his comfort zone. People don't rag on Duncan for only being a dominant inside force and a player that can make somewhat mid range shots. That's what Duncan is good at. You won't see Duncan shooting 3 pointers because its not his style or comfort zone. Duncan has made some 3 pointers in his career but the 3 isn't his shot.

[Ghazi]

lol @ people who bring up the Olympics and use it against Dirk.

I cant name anyone on the Germany roster besides DIrk/Kaman and Im sure most of you cucks couldnt either.

Argentina's NBA caliber talent was/is far superior.

[badfish22]

Manu is clearly the best player of the Argentine National team. Were you too bust watching Dirk lose to China and the rest of the world for you to not know that?

:lmao. yeah Dirk and Manus team were very comparable in talent level :rolleyes

[diego]

I don't get why people rag on Dirk about being a perimeter oriented type of player. That's his style. That's what he's good at. I mean if he was a dominant inside force, he would be in the paint more and shooting jump shots and 3's. I think Dirk is a great player and probably a hall of famer but I will admit that he isn't a dominant inside force. He loves the perimeter mainly because its his comfort zone. People don't rag on Duncan for only being a dominant inside force and a player that can make somewhat mid range shots. That's what Duncan is good at. You won't see Duncan shooting 3 pointers because its not his style or comfort zone. Duncan has made some 3 pointers in his career but the 3 isn't his shot.

assuming you are referring to my post... its dirk's style and thats fine. but IMO it diminishes his value. IMO games are won and lost in the paint and a guy who gets 20/10 (reb) from J's and offensive boards/gimmies is not equal to a guy who gets 20/10 from owning the low block

and for the other guy, there's a difference between having a better career and being the better player. I already said dirk is the more valuable (ie better) player. but that doesnt mean that manu doesnt do certain things better, nor that he had a worse career, unless you measure it in money. if you measure it in money dirk had the better career.

[pauls931]

Flopping? Every play I watch ginobili bites it like he was hit by a freight train even on the opposite side of the court from the ball if someone bumps him.

[ezau]

:lmao. yeah Dirk and Manus team were very comparable in talent level :rolleyes

Ok here we go again:wakeup

[peteee]

assuming you are referring to my post... its dirk's style and thats fine. but IMO it diminishes his value. IMO games are won and lost in the paint and a guy who gets 20/10 (reb) from J's and offensive boards/gimmies is not equal to a guy who gets 20/10 from owning the low block

and for the other guy, there's a difference between having a better career and being the better player. I already said dirk is the more valuable (ie better) player. but that doesnt mean that manu doesnt do certain things better, nor that he had a worse career, unless you measure it in money. if you measure it in money dirk had the better career.
:tu There should have been no doubt about the personal abilities of the two individuals of Manu and Dirk because Dirk is clearly the better player at this point. On the other hand, however, Manu's career has been way more successful than Dirk's undoubtfully. Leaving aside the honors/trophies achieved in international tournaments and european leagues, Manu has 3 champion rings which easily overshadows Dirk's MVP trophy. In all their championship runs in 03, 05 and 07, Manu were always one of the biggest contributors so it doesn't hold much water to equalize Manu's 3 rings to Horry's 7 rings.