A What If? for Mavs fans

[monosylab1k]

Let me be clear: I loved the Buler/Haywood/Stevenson trade when it happened. I still love it now. Despite what's happening to them in this series, these Mavs are significantly improved over last season. The Butler trade was the right move at the time it was made.

But was it the best move to make? I ask this question:

What if the Mavs made a trade for Stephen Jackson when he was, not only available, but practically begging to come to Dallas? On top of that, even Nellie was pushing for him to be traded to Dallas.

How much different and/or better would this team be if Jackson was here instead of Butler/Haywood? Would they even be better at all?

Honestly I have no clue. I don't see Stephen Jackson play enough to pass judgement. But I remember what he did in 2003, I remember what he did in 2007, and I saw him take a mediocre lottery team and turn them into a playoff team this season.

What if?

[Amarelooms]

What if your Mom had a dick...WGAS...Mavs are mediocre team who deserves to lose the a better team the Spurs. This off-season gonna be interesting....Mavs either gonna get a big piece for next year or blow it up and miss the playoffs

:elephant

[Shank]

Hard to say because that domino would cause the others to also fall in different directions.

I'll do one better. How about the Howard for Gerald Wallace when it was thrown out?

[monosylab1k]

I'll do one better. How about the Howard for Gerald Wallace when it was thrown out?

tbh I've already posted ad nauseam on that subject.

If I was GM the past 3 years we'd currently have a starting lineup of -

Baron Davis
Corey Maggette
Gerald Wallace
Dirk Nowitzki
Chris Kaman

and we'd be curbstomping the league right now.

[sribb43]

This teams failure continues to be relying on jumpshots to win games and without either a slashing guard or a two guard that can create for others, early playoff exits will continue. A true low post presence would be great bc mavs cannot get easy baskets to save their lives.

Seems like 2006 was more of an abberation bc the jumpers happened to fall up until 6min left of Game 3 of the finals

[kamikazi_player]

Not a Mav fan, but still......J. J. Barea will still be getting minutes, it wouldn't help Jason Terry miss wide open shots, and even if Stephen Jackson played defense and contribute a little on offense, what makes you think that everyone else will help him on the defensive end? Everyone has to contribute if they want to go deeper in the playoffs. Overall, it would make them better, but they would still have weaknesses that they one player won't take care of.

[dirk4mvp]

tbh I've already posted ad nauseam on that subject.

If I was GM the past 3 years we'd currently have a starting lineup of -

Baron Davis
Corey Maggette
Gerald Wallace
Dirk Nowitzki
Chris Kaman

and we'd be curbstomping the league right now.


Wouldn't we have Kobe instead of Dirk when det was on the table, tbh?

[monosylab1k]

Wouldn't we have Kobe instead of Dirk when det was on the table, tbh?

true tbh, forgot about det one

Baron Davis
KOBE
G-Force
Brandon Bass
Kaman

Maggette as 6th man

even further curbstompage.

[Cry Havoc]

Mavs need a guard who can penetrate consistently*. Period.





* Who's over 5'7"

[Shank]

If you were GM, Mono, would you have botched the Marcin Gortat signing?

[Shank]

Mavs need a guard who can penetrate consistently*. Period.





* Who's over 5'7"

Our little French Fucker can do that.

[monosylab1k]

If you were GM, Mono, would you have botched the Marcin Gortat signing?

how did they botch it? as far as I know, they offered the full MLE and Orlando simply matched it. Regardless of what happened with Gortat, they weren't going to give Bass that kind of money. Everyone in the media played it out like highway robbery, but in reality the Mavs simply went by the gameplan they had from the beginning.

Or is that just what they want us to thing?

[Phallusy]

Mavs need a guard who can penetrate consistently*. Period.





* Who's over 5'7"

Aren't the Mavs supposed to be targeting Wade for next season?

[Phallusy]

Our little French Fucker can do that.

Where the hell is he?

[sribb43]

Aren't the Mavs supposed to be targeting Wade for next season?

And a shitload of other teams with cap space... Mavs will have to do an S and T and that will be very difficult to entice another team to do that, even with Damps contract

[Shank]

how did they botch it? as far as I know, they offered the full MLE and Orlando simply matched it. Regardless of what happened with Gortat, they weren't going to give Bass that kind of money. Everyone in the media played it out like highway robbery, but in reality the Mavs simply went by the gameplan they had from the beginning.

Or is that just what they want us to thing?

You would have played it "Mono Cool". Saying shit like "Eh, we'll try to get this Polish fag, but we really don't care one way or the other". Total smokescreen. Otis would have shit his pants. Or shat them. Whatever.

[Shank]

Where the hell is he?

Rotting next to Lincoln Neck and Marion.

[monosylab1k]

You would have played it "Mono Cool". Saying shit like "Eh, we'll try to get this Polish fag, but we really don't care one way or the other". Total smokescreen. Otis would have shit his pants. Or shat them. Whatever.

tbh I never would have thrown the full MLE at a backup C who only had 1 good game.

[DAF86]

Butler + Haywood > Jackson, imho.

I don't know what Rick sees in Dampier that is better than what Brendan brings.

[DAF86]

Aren't the Mavs supposed to be targeting Wade for next season?

Do they have the cap space to do that?

[sribb43]

Butler + Haywood > Jackson, imho.

I don't know what Rick sees in Dampier that is better than what Brendan brings.

True but the mismanagment of lineups by Rick doesn't matter who is on this team

[monosylab1k]

Do they have the cap space to do that?

Only using Damp/Butler in a sign and trade. But there's no way in hell Wade is coming to Dallas. It's either Chicago or staying in Miami for him.

[monosylab1k]

I don't think you would have ever gotten Jackson, because Nellie would no way help Cuban in any possible way by sending Jackson to the Mavs.

Nellie initially wanted to work exclusively with Dallas to get Jackson there. From what I hear, he only looked elsewhere for a trade after Dallas rejected the idea.

[monosylab1k]

Did he and Cuban make up? I remember he was sueing Cuban for not paid like 6 million dollars or something?

Yeah, but apparently they have made up. They were even friendly to each other and exchanged a hug (or something gay like that) after the last Mavs/GS game.

[Shank]

Yeah, but apparently they have made up. They were even friendly to each other and exchanged a hug (or something gay like that) after the last Mavs/GS game.

I think Nelly still hates his guts, but there's still a warm spot in his heart for his son.

[monosylab1k]

I think Nelly still hates his guts, but there's still a warm spot in his heart for his son.

I think Cuban hates him too, but if he's gonna do a Dampier for Ellis trade this offseason he better start kissing Nellie's gigantic ass.

[Findog]

Wouldn't we have Kobe instead of Dirk when det was on the table, tbh?

Nope. Kobe had a no-trade clause and wasn't going to accept a trade to Dallas in exchange for Dirk. The Lakers had no plans to trade him anyway until the summer of 2008 if he were still unhappy. Once they got Gasol, he was mollified.

[dirk4mvp]

Ellis is a glorified chucker. He literally shoots everytime he has the ball and he plays no defense.

Roddy is 100 times better than him, and Carlise if around next year should finally start giving him minutes.

Cool it guy. Ellis plays in a system where it is encouraged to chuck shots and play no D. I'd like to see how he does elsewhere where the culture isn't to play backyard basketball.

[Findog]

Ellis is a glorified chucker. He literally shoots everytime he has the ball and he plays no defense.

No interest whatsoever in Ellis. I'd rather develop Roddy.

[Findog]

Butler + Haywood > Jackson, imho.

I don't know what Rick sees in Dampier that is better than what Brendan brings.

Haywood hasn't done a great job of defending Duncan 1 on 1 in this series.

[DAF86]

Haywood hasn't done a great job of defending Duncan 1 on 1 in this series.

He did a pretty good job tonight.

[monosylab1k]

No interest whatsoever in Ellis. I'd rather develop Roddy.

how would that get in the way? Roddy is a PG, Ellis is a SG.

[monosylab1k]

I'd take ellis in a heartbeat. He's everything the Mavs need right now. Aggressive, attacks the basket, makes them faster and more athletic.

[Findog]

Do they have the cap space to do that?

Here's what you can say for sure about the 2010/11 Dallas Mavericks:

Dirk (Unless he gets so fed up that he opts out and signs elsewhere)
Kidd
Terry (Can't move his contract)
Marion (Can't move his contract)
Carroll (Can't move his contract)
Roddy B

Dallas's cap figure is $84 million next year. Dirk has a player option, but he is not expected to leave Dallas. Terry has two years left on his deal after this one. Marion has four years left. I think Carroll has three. Dallas can't shed those contracts unless they take back similarly bad deals. Haywood is an unrestricted FA.

Damp has a team option for $13 million that can be declined by whoever holds his contract in August for an instant $13 million in savings. Dallas can theoretically trade his rights to Team X for a contract that runs past the 2010/11 season, a straight cash for talent deal. Butler and Stevenson have one year left on their contracts for next season that total about $14.6 million. Barea has a team option for $1.8 million.

Dallas can put together a Dampier/Butler/Stevenson/Barea package for a nearly $30 million cap figure if they're willing to take back contracts that run past the 2010/11 season. With Houston well positioned to sign a FA this summer, with Portland and the Zombie Sonics only going to get stronger, and with San Antonio and the Lakers probably in the contender mix for the next two years or so, those four contracts represent the last chance Dallas has to do something in the Dirk Era.

[Cane]

Jason Kidd is a big problem since San Antonio and a lot of playoff ballclubs have huge mismatches they can exploit against him.

Another season's worth of chemistry might help the new Mavs but imo Kidd is the elephant in the room...because of him you have to play JJ Barea and go small ball since Kidd is rarely benched especially during crunch time.

[monosylab1k]

Isn't Roddy more a like a shooting guard like Terry?

He's being used in that capacity right now, but they better be working like hell to make him a PG cuz this team is fucked when the inevitable Jason Kidd body meltdown happens (it may already be upon us).

[picc84]

Where did this image come from?

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/flyingvespa/d56f513f.jpg

:lol

[Findog]

how would that get in the way? Roddy is a PG, Ellis is a SG.

Roddy is not a PG. He's as much of a PG as Tyreke Evans or Russell Westbrook. He's a PG if you define the 1 as "the guy who brings the ball up the court." I see Roddy as a Parker/Barbosa three years ago guy who is much better at penetrating and attacking the paint than actually running an offense.

Bringing in Ellis intereferes with Roddy's development in my opinion. In an ideal situation, we use Damp's contract to get a Joe Johnson type at 2 guard, and then Roddy is the first guard off the bench playing 25-30 minutes a night consistently next year.

[Ghazi]

Thunder and Blazers are rising powers.

Lebron is the transcendent force of our time and the 2nd best player in the league, D-Whistle, will probably find himself with some help next year.

Dirk will be 32 years old next year.

I weep for the boys in blue, I truly weep :cry :cry

Iguodala, Ellis... can players like these truly imprint NBA history?

I weep :cry

[Findog]

Jason Kidd is a big problem since San Antonio and a lot of playoff ballclubs have huge mismatches they can exploit against him.

Another season's worth of chemistry might help the new Mavs but imo Kidd is the elephant in the room...because of him you have to play JJ Barea and go small ball since Kidd is rarely benched especially during crunch time.

Kidd was terrific for us this year, but the Spurs have done an excellent job of running him off the 3-pt line. Without that 3-pt shot, he's not nearly as much of an offensive threat.

[monosylab1k]

Roddy is not a PG. He's as much of a PG as Tyreke Evans or Russell Westbrook. He's a PG if you define the 1 as "the guy who brings the ball up the court." I see Roddy as a Parker/Barbosa three years ago guy who is much better at penetrating and attacking the paint than actually running an offense.

Bringing in Ellis intereferes with Roddy's development in my opinion. In an ideal situation, we use Damp's contract to get a Joe Johnson type at 2 guard, and then Roddy is the first guard off the bench playing 25-30 minutes a night consistently next year.

If you say so. Then again, I've been dead-on perfect with how the Mavs would play this postseason, and every other Mavs fan here has......well....not.

[mogrovejo]

Cool it guy. Ellis plays in a system where it is encouraged to chuck shots and play no D. I'd like to see how he does elsewhere where the culture isn't to play backyard basketball.

The Warriors offence with and without Ellis is like night and day. If he isn't on the floor and they're playing, say, the Curry/Morrow backcourt, the ball-movement+everybody making the extra-pass+the fastness is spectacular.

[mogrovejo]

Let me be clear: I loved the Buler/Haywood/Stevenson trade when it happened. I still love it now. Despite what's happening to them in this series, these Mavs are significantly improved over last season. The Butler trade was the right move at the time it was made.

But was it the best move to make? I ask this question:

What if the Mavs made a trade for Stephen Jackson when he was, not only available, but practically begging to come to Dallas? On top of that, even Nellie was pushing for him to be traded to Dallas.

How much different and/or better would this team be if Jackson was here instead of Butler/Haywood? Would they even be better at all?

Honestly I have no clue. I don't see Stephen Jackson play enough to pass judgement. But I remember what he did in 2003, I remember what he did in 2007, and I saw him take a mediocre lottery team and turn them into a playoff team this season.

What if?

I don't think they'd be better. Maybe Jackson would be better than Butler, but Haywood is an important asset being underutilized.

[Findog]

If you say so. Then again, I've been dead-on perfect with how the Mavs would play this postseason, and every other Mavs fan here has......well....not.

You said that they were jump-shooting front-running pussies who would quit at the first sign of adversity. The last three games they have definitely NOT quit. They've dug themselves holes and been forced to crawl out of them, but I have yet to see this crawl into the fetal position while feeling sorry for themselves demonstration you said would happen. Direct me to the post where you said Carlisle would coach this team out of the series and I'll concede your wisdom.

In my opinion they squandered two very winnable games in San Antonio thanks to horrible coaching/clutch shooting by Tony Parker/bad perimeter defense, games you never gave them a chance of winning because they are apparently jump-shooting front-running pussies that would lay down the first time the Spurs punched them in the mouth.

That's why they lost this game by 25 points after that awful third quarter, why they never made a game of it after the Spurs went ahead by 20 in Game 2, and why San Antonio seized control in Game 3 and Dallas never mounted a run to get back in it.

Force Popovich and Carlisle to switch teams and it's 2-2 right now. The Spurs are better, but not by much. You were right about 3-1, you weren't right about how they got there.

[monosylab1k]

I don't think they'd be better. Maybe Jackson would be better than Butler, but Haywood is an important asset being underutilized.

True, if Haywood was getting more time and more chances things might be different. Why they never go pick-n-roll with Haywood/Kidd is incredible to me. Regular season, I know, but that was almost unstoppable at times during the 13 game win streak.

Mainly the difference between Butler and Jackson would be in the locker room. Butler's no mental midget, but he isn't a vocal leader with the bunker mentality of Stephen Jackson. As we all know, another of the Mavs biggest needs is a true leader. Kidd can only do so much but when he's as lacking in offensive skills as he currently is, you can't truly lead the team. Dirk will simply never be the vocal leader the Mavs have to have to succeed in the playoffs. Jackson could have fit that role.

[Saul Silver]

What? Fuck Jeff Goldblum, man!

[monosylab1k]

You said that they were jump-shooting front-running pussies who would quit at the first sign of adversity. The last three games they have definitely NOT quit. They've dug themselves holes and been forced to crawl out of them, but I have yet to see this crawl into the fetal position while feeling sorry for themselves demonstration you said would happen. Direct me to the post where you said Carlisle would coach this team out of the series and I'll concede your wisdom.

In my opinion they squandered two very winnable games in San Antonio thanks to horrible coaching/clutch shooting by Tony Parker/bad perimeter defense, games you never gave them a chance of winning because they are apparently jump-shooting front-running pussies that would lay down the first time the Spurs punched them in the mouth.

That's why they lost this game by 25 points after that awful third quarter, why they never made a game of it after the Spurs went ahead by 20 in Game 2, and why San Antonio seized control in Game 3 and Dallas never mounted a run to get back in it.

Force Popovich and Carlisle to switch teams and it's 2-2 right now. The Spurs are better, but not by much. You were right about 3-1, you weren't right about how they got there.

So jacking up jumpers is playing hard? Giving up on trying to beat the double team and taking only 10 shots when you know full well the only way your team is going to win is if you take over offensively is playing hard?

[Findog]

So jacking up jumpers is playing hard? Giving up on trying to beat the double team and taking only 10 shots when you know full well the only way your team is going to win is if you take over offensively is playing hard?

Are you putting tonight's loss on Dirk? Are you putting 3-1 on Dirk? Seriously?

[Red]

What? Fuck Jeff Goldblum, man!

Do you know what today is? This is my cat's birthday today.

[monosylab1k]

Are you putting tonight's loss on Dirk? Are you putting 3-1 on Dirk? Seriously?

You better fuckin believe I am. Dirk knows damn well this team needs him putting up 30+ a night for them to take this series. He KNOWS he has to be at the absolute top of his game for the Mavs to succeed. How has he responded? He played like ass in Game 2, and he didn't even try in Game 4. TEN SHOTS????? TEN FUCKING SHOTS??????

Game 1 he was bad ass, and Game 3 was not his fault at all, that's 100% on Carlisle. But when your best player only shows up 50% of the time in the playoffs, that's what gets your team down 3-1.

[z0sa]

What if Dirk's goto move wasn't a contested fadeaway jumper?
What if Josh Howard wasn't a pothead?
What if Carlisle didn't look like Jim Carrey?

SJax wouldn't have changed anything. Butler+Haywood > SJax.

[BlackSwordsMan]

blame the refs mang

[Officer Slater]

Do you know what today is? This is my cat's birthday today.

I don't see a cat in here... I'm sorry, did you let it out by accident?

[Spurminator]

Well, for one thing, if SJax got benched the way Marion and Butler have this series, there would be locker room anarchy...

[Findog]

You better fuckin believe I am. Dirk knows damn well this team needs him putting up 30+ a night for them to take this series. He KNOWS he has to be at the absolute top of his game for the Mavs to succeed. How has he responded? He played like ass in Game 2, and he didn't even try in Game 4. TEN SHOTS????? TEN FUCKING SHOTS??????


Tim Duncan 1-9 from the floor tonight. Manu Ginobili 4-16. You know why San Antonio won tonight? Superior coaching/superior guard rotation/superior bench.

I guess you didn't notice him driving to the basket on three straight possessions at the end of the third/beginning of the fourth to stop the bleeding (it would've been nice if Carlisle called more than 1 TO during that stretch or made adjustments to get the ball out of George Hill's hand.)

So in your opinion, when Dirk is bodied up close by two guys, he shouldn't swing it to Jason Terry for a wide-open corner three? If the Spurs play him straight up, he needs to shoot. If they come with a soft double, he needs to shoot. If they come with a hard double, and they've usually waited until crunch time to do that, he needs to find the open man instead of taking a bad shot where he can be stripped of the ball by the help defender. San Antonio used the exact same defense last year and limited his shot attempts by constant use of hard doubles. Bass, Howard and JJB made them pay for it. This year he's going for 30+ points on 50%+ shooting and he is getting NOTHING from his teammates. That's the difference between this year and last year (aside from the Spurs getting contributions this time around from Hill and Manu)


Game 1 he was bad ass, and Game 3 was not his fault at all, that's 100% on Carlisle. But when your best player only shows up 50% of the time in the playoffs, that's what gets your team down 3-1

He's been the best player in this series. Unfortunately for Dallas, the second, third, fourth and fifth-best players in this series are all Spurs.

[Red]

I don't see a cat in here... I'm sorry, did you let it out by accident?

No, because he died three months ago, okay? So now who's the funny guy? Today is his birthday and it is a tradition that on his birthday I get up extra early and make him his favorite kind of dessert

[monosylab1k]

So in your opinion, when Dirk is bodied up close by two guys, he shouldn't swing it to Jason Terry for a wide-open corner three? If the Spurs play him straight up, he needs to shoot. If they come with a soft double, he needs to shoot. If they come with a hard double, and they've usually waited until crunch time to do that, he needs to find the open man instead of taking a bad shot where he can be stripped of the ball by the help defender.

Maybe what he needs to do is stop being so fucking predictable and stop getting the ball at the exact same spot on the floor and stop making the exact same spin move every single damn time. Mix it up just a little bit, for fuck's sake.

I'm sure he'll work on that this offseason, along with his mythical post game.

[Findog]

Maybe what he needs to do is stop being so fucking predictable and stop getting the ball at the exact same spot on the floor and stop making the exact same spin move every single damn time. Mix it up just a little bit, for fuck's sake.

So where would you have Dirk set up aside from the elbow or mid-post? They set him up at the elbow because it is very difficult to front him there and deny him the ball. The spin and hesitation moves are usually very adept at drawing fouls when he gets his man up in the air or out of position. It also allows him to see over the defense to hit cutters if they double him. They set him up at the mid-post because it forces opposing teams to cover a lot of ground to get back to the open man when they send a double.

How would you get him the ball? Would you run him off screens or curls like Rip Hamilton? Would you put him on the low block like Tim Duncan? Would you have him set up at the top of the key and set a high screen so he can take his defender off the dribble?

[Saul Silver]

No, because he died three months ago, okay? So now who's the funny guy? Today is his birthday and it is a tradition that on his birthday I get up extra early and make him his favorite kind of dessert

Don't worry bro, your cat's going to heaven.

[Red]

Don't worry bro, your cat's going to heaven.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe he went to heaven. He was a little fucker though, he could've gone to hell.

[monosylab1k]

So where would you have Dirk set up aside from the elbow or mid-post?

Plenty of options on the floor. The beauty of Dirk is supposed to be that he's got a SG skill set with a PF body.


They set him up at the elbow because it is very difficult to front him there and deny him the ball. The spin and hesitation moves are usually very adept at drawing fouls when he gets his man up in the air or out of position.

True. I'm not saying abandon it completely, I'm saying mix it up. Give the opponent different looks, not the same thing over and over and over.


It also allows him to see over the defense to hit cutters if they double him.

:lmao you need cutters for that to ever happen.


They set him up at the mid-post because it forces opposing teams to cover a lot of ground to get back to the open man when they send a double.

Unfortunately the open men on the team can't hit shots for dick. Which is why you mix it up.


How would you get him the ball? Would you run him off screens or curls like Rip Hamilton? Would you put him on the low block like Tim Duncan? Would you have him set up at the top of the key and set a high screen so he can take his defender off the dribble?

All of the above. If you had to fear Dirk in every spot on the floor, rather that just one spot on the floor, I think the matchup nightmare gets even worse. Dirk's predictability and snail-like pace once he gets the ball is just as big a problem as Caron/Jet missing wide open shots and JJ Barea waving everybody off and trying to go 1v5 like he's LeBron James.

[Saul Silver]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe he went to heaven. He was a little fucker though, he could've gone to hell.

Are you okay bro? It looks like you've been crying or something.

[Red]

Are you okay bro? It looks like you've been crying or something.

Um, actually, my lip, that's a cold sore. And I've never had a cold sore before, so I cried.

[Saul Silver]

Um, actually, my lip, that's a cold sore. And I've never had a cold sore before, so I cried.

Dude! A cold sore? Does that mean like, herpes?

[Red]

Dude! A cold sore? Does that mean like, herpes?

Yes, that's what it means. I have herpes.

[Saul Silver]

Yes, that's what it means. I have herpes.

Herpes... woah, do you know how many like, joints we've shared?

[Red]

Herpes... woah, do you know how many like, joints we've shared?

Yes, I know, I'm a disgusting person.

[John Terry]

Yes, I know, I'm a disgusting person.
yes, you are.

[exstatic]

Stephen Jackson is a clutch shooter, but again, his primary weapon is his jump shot, something I'm seeing a lot of Dallas fans complaining that their team is built around. He's a dreadful ball handler, and only an occasional penetrator. This is a guy you can only love in the playoffs, and then only in the 4th quarter, mostly. He's actually a lot like Jet in that he can shoot you into or out of a game.

[sribb43]

While Haywood>>>damp (fuckin Carlisle doesn't see this), he still has a very limited post game. Watching him trying to make a move down low is almost as painful as watching damp. Haywood is a great catch and dunk guy and with the occasional offensive reb and put back and that's about it offensively

[ElNono]

Are you putting tonight's loss on Dirk? Are you putting 3-1 on Dirk? Seriously?

All the same, main defender Antonio McDyess wondered why Nowitzki wasn't more aggressive. "It wasn't the defense, he just wasn't taking them,'' said McDyess of Nowitzki's failure to launch. "It looked like he was a little reluctant because we were shifting on him a lot and getting off him. I don't think he ever really knew when to take his shot. He had some open shots, but he just wasn't taking them.''

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ian_thomsen/04/26/spurs.mavs.game4/index.html

[clambake]

While Haywood>>>damp (fuckin Carlisle doesn't see this), he still has a very limited post game. Watching him trying to make a move down low is almost as painful as watching damp. Haywood is a great catch and dunk guy and with the occasional offensive reb and put back and that's about it offensively

oh please. damp couldn't catch a pass with 4 hands.

[sribb43]

oh please. damp couldn't catch a pass with 4 hands.

Exactly..damp is so bad that it makes Haywood look like Dwight Howard