Calling Out TimVP - on ref bias

[Guru of Nothing]

I've had a few, so hopefully you can win this tiny debate.

Did Jeff Van Gundy lie?

Are the NBA refs biased in the Sonic's favor in tonight's game?

Please lead with yes or no responses.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Sorry to gravy train but...

How can you say the league can't have the refs do their bidding when a pussy like Ray Allen can whine in the paper and have the refs covering his back all night long tonight?

[Guru of Nothing]

I can use all the gravy training I can get calling out LJ.

[TwoHandJam]

I called him out in the game blog thread already. You'd have to be blind to not see the bias tonight, and it's certainly not the first time. This is nothing new.

The whole thing about believing JVG was "lying" is also funny.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yes.

[samikeyp]

I have never been one to call out officials. I firmly believe that players control their own actions but tonight almost shook my faith. 5 fouls on Bruce and one was quasi-legit. The first one, Allen jumped into Bowen. Thankfully the Spurs still one. Fuck you Ray.

[Obstructed_View]

And Joey Crawford was leading the crew. I never would have predicted it.

[Spurminator]

I don't think it was a case of the NBA asking the officials to watch Bowen more closely...

I think Ray Allen just gave the crew some good pussy love before the game.

[timvp]

Did Jeff Van Gundy lie?

Yes.

Van Gundy would pimp his own mom to get a win in the playoffs. If he had to make up some ref story to try to let Yao get away with offensive fouls, he was going to do it. I know everyone loves the conspiracy theory and I'm a bit of a wet blanket for letting reality intervene, but JVG was lying.

Coaches and players have worked over the officials/refs/umpires before and between games to gain some sort of an advantage. It happens in every sport where there is a third group involved in the games.



Are the NBA refs biased in the Sonic's favor in tonight's game?

There were a couple bad calls on both sides, but biased? No.

There was no league mandate to come and make the Spurs lose. A lot of people will look at the Bruce Bowen fouls and say that the league or refs were sending a message. The truth is that Bowen plays on the thin line between good, solid defense and fouling. Every great defender has navigated that thin line. There is no such thing as a defender who is great and not near fouling.

Bowen got caught a couple times right on that thin line and the ref blew the whistle. Most games, he's not going to receive that many calls. But sometimes when you tiptoe that line, chances are you are going to get in foul trouble here and there. And for Bowen, those games are few and far between. He probably gets in foul trouble in less than 10% of games.

[SequSpur]

Hard Fouls

Sonics 20+
Spurs 0

I would at least like to see one hard foul by the Spurs. Even though they are winning on the judges card they are still getting their ass kicked like sissies.

[TwoHandJam]

There were a couple bad calls on both sides, but biased? No.

There was no league mandate to come and make the Spurs lose. A lot of people will look at the Bruce Bowen fouls and say that the league or refs were sending a message. The truth is that Bowen plays on the thin line between good, solid defense and fouling. Every great defender has navigated that thin line. There is no such thing as a defender who is great and not near fouling.

Bowen got caught a couple times right on that thin line and the ref blew the whistle. Most games, he's not going to receive that many calls. But sometimes when you tiptoe that line, chances are you are going to get in foul trouble here and there. And for Bowen, those games are few and far between. He probably gets in foul trouble in less than 10% of games.
I'm not even going to get into the JVG stuff because it's just too retarded but I suppose Bowen picking up 5 fouls in 17 minutes the night after Ray goes postal to the press is just a huge coincidence in your eyes. You know as well as I that only one of the calls on Bowen was legit. If you TIVO'ed the game, go back and review. Your wife is a huge Bowen fan and I'm sure she knows the score. The other calls weren't even close.


timvp, I generally consider you a solid poster but you are losing credibility lately faster than a cat can lick it's ass. Open your eyes. This is not the first time that whining to the press has resulted in a statistical outlier in calls against a player, especially Bowen. Jackson was the ultimate puppet master at getting calls and every time he whined about Bruce, Bruce paid for it the next game. I fail to believe that you've never observed this before.

[timvp]

I'm not even going to get into the JVG stuff because it's just too retarded but I suppose Bowen picking up 5 fouls in 17 minutes the night after Ray goes postal to the press is just a huge coincidence in your eyes. You know as well as I that only one of the calls on Bowen was legit. If you TIVO'ed the game, go back and review. Your wife is a huge Bowen fan and I'm sure she knows the score. The other calls weren't even close.

timvp, I generally consider you a solid poster but you are losing credibility lately faster than a cat can lick it's ass. Open your eyes. This is not the first time that whining to the press has resulted in a statistical outlier in calls against a player, especially Bowen. Jackson was the ultimate puppet master at getting calls and every time he whined about Bruce, Bruce paid for it the next game. I fail to believe that you've never observed this before.

:blah

Ray Allen bitched before game one. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? Ray Allen bitched before the last regular season game. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? The Nuggets bitched the whole series. How many times was Bowen in foul trouble?

If you can't man up and watch basketball without blaming the refs after every game, then I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes the breaks go against you. Sack up and take it like a man and wipe the tears away.

Bowen and the rest of the Spurs don't worry about and neither should you.

[TwoHandJam]

:blah

Ray Allen bitched before game one. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? Ray Allen bitched before the last regular season game. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? The Nuggets bitched the whole series. How many times was Bowen in foul trouble?


Don't make me lead you by the hand. He bitched before game one but not excessively. After his "injury" in game 1 he turned up the heat big time in the press even going so far as to say that Bowen was responsible. That definitely got results. A franchise player and NBA icon levied serious allegations in the press and you'd better believe the league stood up and took notice. Karl bitched about everything but was very derogatory towards the officials and didn't know how to work them in the press. He's a rookie, Jackson was a master. Surely you don't deny this.

There is no league mandate or conspiracy theory to make the Spurs lose and I disagree with those who try and dumb it down to those terms. What does exist is overzealous and gratuitous scrutiny on players by the officials whenever someone takes issue with them in a very public manner. This occurs whether they're on the Spurs or not.

If officials are truly unbiased they should not be influenced by any outside forces. Bowen's anomalous game was most definitely correlated with the events that took place in the press.



If you can't man up and watch basketball without blaming the refs after every game, then I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes the breaks go against you. Sack up and take it like a man and wipe the tears away.

Bowen and the rest of the Spurs don't worry about and neither should you.
Spare me the "man up" crap. You have to be a "man" to tolerate sub-par officiating? Please. This is just tired, macho bullshit that posters use in a feeble attempt handwaive away the problem with the state of officiating in the NBA.

There are real problems. No conspiracy, no league mandate, just mismanagement and mediocrity. I've brought up major problem areas and possible resolutions many times in many posts and you've never seriously addressed any of it. You prefer to throw around the "man up", handwaiving, "problem doesn't exist" angle instead of bringing a real take.

Go review some of my old posts and get back to me when you want to have a serious discussion. I'm not the only poster who sees a problem.

[Obstructed_View]

There was no league mandate to come and make the Spurs lose. A lot of people will look at the Bruce Bowen fouls and say that the league or refs were sending a message. The truth is that Bowen plays on the thin line between good, solid defense and fouling. Every great defender has navigated that thin line. There is no such thing as a defender who is great and not near fouling.

Bowen got caught a couple times right on that thin line and the ref blew the whistle. Most games, he's not going to receive that many calls. But sometimes when you tiptoe that line, chances are you are going to get in foul trouble here and there. And for Bowen, those games are few and far between. He probably gets in foul trouble in less than 10% of games.
Over-rationalize much? Ray Allen got whistles when guys literally did not touch him. They called Barry for putting a forearm on him when he wasn't moving. Something was up, because they weren't just calling a tight game. It was an otherwise well-officiated game except for the times someone farted in Ray Allen's general direction.

That said, I absolutely won't even entertain the idea that there's a league mandate to punish Bowen unless the same thing happens tomorrow. If it happens with a completely different crew on a different night, all bets are off.

[Guru of Nothing]

If you can't man up and watch basketball without blaming the refs after every game, then I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes the breaks go against you. Sack up and take it like a man and wipe the tears away.

Bowen and the rest of the Spurs don't worry about and neither should you.

That's crap, redirecting the focus from ref bias to fan testosterone. Personally, the trait I admire most about the Spurs is their refusal to drag themselves down to bitch level on the court and in the press, but that in no way implies they think the refs are stellar, nor competent and unbiased. The refs obviously call the game with a bias that exists outside the letter of the rulebook; but I'll admit they try to call the game within the spirit of the rules - so no grand conspiracy theories from me. Still, as a fan, I have to sit and watch the game with an utterly ridiculous anticipation that the refs will even it all out before the games end (or worse, before a series end)

Face it, the refs devote too much time making amends to the amends they made, and if they do a bad job, the players and coaches employ the media as a how-to seminar on how to "really" call the game, and they amend again. The ease with which Stern could snuff out complaints on game-calling, yet refuses to do (save a protocol error on JVG's part) speaks loud and clear.

[timvp]

He bitched before game one but not excessively.

Yes he did. You must have missed all the articles and all the time he spent whining to the media.


After his "injury" in game 1 he turned up the heat big time in the press even going so far as to say that Bowen was responsible. That definitely got results.

He was saying the same things before game one. He was saying the same things before the final contest with Bowen this regular season.


A franchise player and NBA icon levied serious allegations in the press and you'd better believe the league stood up and took notice. Karl bitched about everything but was very derogatory towards the officials and didn't know how to work them in the press. He's a rookie, Jackson was a master. Surely you don't deny this.

:lmao

That was weak. So Ray Allen and Phil Jackson are "masters" of working the refs. George Karl is a rookie? Yeah, he's only been bitching about refs for over ten years.

You are desperate to cry about the refs and you've fallen to humorous depths. Phil Jackson must have been off of his ref "mastery" last year because Bowen only averaged 1.5 fouls per game in the four games the Spurs lost to the Lakers. I thought you said he got Bowen in foul trouble by yapping to the media?

Guess not. Come correct or continue to cry about the refs with Walton. Again, it's time for you to man up.


Spare me the "man up" crap. You have to be a "man" to tolerate sub-par officiating? Please. This is just tired, macho bullshit that posters use in a feeble attempt handwaive away the problem with the state of officiating in the NBA.

Man up.

Bowen doesn't worry about it. Popovich doesn't worry about it. It's a part of the game. If you've ever played basketball, you'll know that sometimes the refs whistle you for bad calls. I've never claimed that refs are perfect.


There are real problems. No conspiracy, no league mandate, just mismanagement and mediocrity. I've brought up major problem areas and possible resolutions many times in many posts and you've never seriously addressed any of it. You prefer to throw around the "man up", handwaiving, "problem doesn't exist" angle instead of bringing a real take.

Link?


Go review some of my old posts and get back to me when you want to have a serious discussion. I'm not the only poster who sees a problem.

I'm not going to go TwoHandJam digging. Copy and paste.

[Guru of Nothing]

Or put another way .... and giving a little credence to conspiracy theories, the NBA refs a game much like Bruce Bowen plays defense. They won't go flagrant on marketing-challenged markets, but they will sure as hell give a nudge.

The sky is sky-blue in my world.

ETA: My small-marketing reference misses the point somewhat. I should have not pulled out that card. In the case of Seatte vs. San Antonio, it might be more about 5 or 6 playoff games instead of 4.

[timvp]

Over-rationalize much? Ray Allen got whistles when guys literally did not touch him.

Bad calls happen in every sport. No one ever said the NBA was immune.


They called Barry for putting a forearm on him when he wasn't moving.

That was a correct call. You aren't allowed to handcheck in that situation.

[timvp]

The ease with which Stern could snuff out complaints on game-calling, yet refuses to do (save a protocol error on JVG's part) speaks loud and clear.

How would he "snuff out complaints on game-calling"? That'll never happen. As long as refs are involved, there will be fans there to complain. It's what fans do.

[timvp]

Or put another way .... and giving a little credence to conspiracy theories, the NBA refs a game much like Bruce Bowen plays defense. They won't go flagrant on marketing-challenged markets, but they will sure as hell give a nudge.

The sky is sky-blue in my world.

ETA: My small-marketing reference misses the point somewhat. I should have not pulled out that card. In the case of Seatte vs. San Antonio, it might be more about 5 or 6 playoff games instead of 4.

The Spurs must have been double good to win two championships with the NBA against them.

:sleep

[Guru of Nothing]

How would he "snuff out complaints on game-calling"? That'll never happen. As long as refs are involved, there will be fans there to complain. It's what fans do.

I'm talking about coaches and players, not fans.

[Guru of Nothing]

The Spurs must have been double good to win two championships with the NBA against them.

:sleep


Not double good, more like 1.1 good.

[timvp]

What's classic to me is every other team's fan's say that the Spurs get the benefit of the calls. And actually, the Spurs seemingly always lead the league in FT differential. But no, the Big Bad NBA will risk billions of dollars to get the small-market teams like the Spurs out of the playoffs by tilting the playing field.

If people would just think about what would happen if it leaked that the NBA was rigged or even tilting the playing field, we could get rid of these conspiracies.

[timvp]

I'm talking about coaches and players, not fans.

Players never foul. Coaches are always getting the short end of the stick.

How are you going to reverse this? Don't bogart the knowledge.

[Guru of Nothing]

What's classic to me is every other team's fan's say that the Spurs get the benefit of the calls. And actually, the Spurs seemingly always lead the league in FT differential. But no, the Big Bad NBA will risk billions of dollars to get the small-market teams like the Spurs out of the playoffs by tilting the playing field.

If people would just think about what would happen if it leaked that the NBA was rigged or even tilting the playing field, we could get rid of these conspiracies.

I'll never get through to you.

The NBA is not rigged, it is biased - money makes it so, and believe it or not, I'm not here to complain about it, not tonight anyway.

And Stern does not have to tell an official how to call a game. He can get his point across loud and clear implicitly, without a shred of evidence. Do you doubt this?

[timvp]

I'll never get through to you.

Why not? If I read anything that would convince me, I'd be more than willing to switch sides. I have no stake in saying that the NBA isn't rigged/biased.


The NBA is not rigged, it is biased - money makes it so, and believe it or not, I'm not here to complain about it, not tonight anyway.

And Stern does not have to tell an official how to call a game. He can get his point across loud and clear implicitly, without a shred of evidence. Do you doubt this?

Yes.

[Guru of Nothing]

There is another factor at play which is nearly a discussion unto itself. The NBA has a rulebook which cramps the style of most players.

In a lot of cases I think a lot of refs are beaten into submission with a glamorous lack of fundamentals, and the ad contracts that accompany them.

It's messy.

[TwoHandJam]

Yes he did. You must have missed all the articles and all the time he spent whining to the media.



He was saying the same things before game one. He was saying the same things before the final contest with Bowen this regular season.
You don't get it. He accused Bowen of causing his injury, that is far more high profile than background whining, and it definitely caught the league's attention. Bowen's fouls were a farce, and didn't fit with the physicality that was allowed for other players in the very same game. On both sides. Hell, the fact that make-up calls exist in the NBA should tell you something about the state of affairs.


That was weak. So Ray Allen and Phil Jackson are "masters" of working the refs. George Karl is a rookie? Yeah, he's only been bitching about refs for over ten years. Yes, Jackson was a master. Only you seem to deny this which is laughable. Mutombo has been working on his sky hook for years. It still sucks.


You are desperate to cry about the refs and you've fallen to humorous depths. Phil Jackson must have been off of his ref "mastery" last year because Bowen only averaged 1.5 fouls per game in the four games the Spurs lost to the Lakers. I thought you said he got Bowen in foul trouble by yapping to the media? Bowen wasn't a factor in that series. No need to whine about him. Parker on the other hand was a huge problem in the first two games and was allowed to get to the hole with impunity all the while drawing fouls on contact. When the series moved to LA, things were officiated in a completely different way. Players were allowed to ride any slasher's hip and hand check with abandon. I don't think we lost the series because of the refs but the way the games were called for the final four games was very different. Consistency has always been a problem in the NBA.



Guess not. Come correct or continue to cry about the refs with Walton. Again, it's time for you to man up.
I know you're flailing when you try to smear me because of my relationship with Walton.




Man up.
Grow up.


I'm not going to go TwoHandJam digging. Copy and paste.No thanks. At least not tonight. You've obviously read it before and didn't rebut so why should I take the time if you didn't. Try your search feature. It shouldn't take you long.

[Guru of Nothing]

One last comment (or two) and then I am done.

Refs are biased - I really find it difficult that you won't agree with me. Where you should disagree with me is on the degree of their bias. It lies somewhere between unbiased and rigged.

Parting question - have you ever gotten your point across without the use of words (spoken or written), or has anyone ever done the same to you? That's why Stern gets the big bucks.

[Obstructed_View]

That was a correct call. You aren't allowed to handcheck in that situation.
Explain that one to me, because I'm not sure how that's a hand-check. The way I understand it, a defender may touch an opponent anywhere on the court as long as it does not impede the player's progress. IOW, the player has to be moving in order to impede his progress. Ray wasn't moving.

By itself that particular call means nothing, but since the only really questionable calls in an otherwise well officiated game went in favor of one player that happened to fake an injury and complain to the media about it I find it highly suspicious, and so should you.

Again, I don't think it's a conspiracy or anything dark, but it was clear to me that someone was listening to Ray complaining.

[Obstructed_View]

Refs are biased - I really find it difficult that you won't agree with me. Where you should disagree with me is on the degree of their bias. It lies somewhere between unbiased and rigged.
If refs are biased and the game is rigged, what are you bitching about? In fact, why are you watching it if you think some suit in a boardroom is deciding the outcome?

Refs are human. NBA refs are the best in any sport anywhere in the world. Just take five minutes to watch what they are watching and what they have to react to. Try to imagine how badly you would do in that situation and you realize that they are the freaking navy seals of officiating. They don't tolerate incompetence, and none of the conspiracy nuts has ever been able to come up with any statistics to prove their accusations conclusively.

That's why I find the situation so suspicious, because I think NBA officials are too good to make that many mistakes in one individual player's favor immediately after everyone in the media reported his accusations and showed him limping around in front of the cameras.

[timvp]

You don't get it. He accused Bowen of causing his injury, that is far more high profile than background whining, and it definitely caught the league's attention.

How come Bowen doesn't get in foul trouble versus Vince Carter after Carter said Bowen injured him. He must not have that "mastery" you talk about yet, right?


Hell, the fact that make-up calls exist in the NBA should tell you something about the state of affairs.

Make-up fouls exist in every sport. It's just more noticeable in the NBA.


Bowen wasn't a factor in that series. No need to whine about him.

Do you read what you post?


Jackson was the ultimate puppet master at getting calls and every time he whined about Bruce, Bruce paid for it the next game.

You say that and then I show you that it didn't happen and then you say it wasn't about Bruce. Make up your mind and stop fishing for ways to justify your whining.


Parker on the other hand was a huge problem in the first two games and was allowed to get to the hole with impunity all the while drawing fouls on contact. When the series moved to LA, things were officiated in a completely different way. Players were allowed to ride any slasher's hip and hand check with abandon. I don't think we lost the series because of the refs but the way the games were called for the final four games was very different. Consistency has always been a problem in the NBA.

I don't even know why I waste my time with someone who didn't watch the series. Parker made a total of five free throws in the first two games. He must not have been "drawing fouls on contact" too much then, aye?

The Spurs lost because they started doubling Parker on the pick and rolls and no player stepped up from the perimeter to knock down shots outside of Devin Brown. No matter what the refs did, they weren't going to give Parker and Duncan the strength to beat the Lakers 5 on 2. The Spurs lost after Phil made a genius adjustment. PJack risked that the shooters would get cold and they did. End of series.

For you to even bring up the refs shows how weak of a fan you are. Your team lost. Man up and admit that and stop looking for excuses that didn't exist.


I know you're flailing when you try to smear me because of my relationship with Walton.

You came out attacking me in this thread. Don't start whining now becaue you can't handle the heat. Maybe it's a ref bias that you are losing.


No thanks. At least not tonight. You've obviously read it before and didn't rebut so why should I take the time if you didn't. Try your search feature. It shouldn't take you long.

I obviously read it before? How do you come to that? Because I ask you to copy and paste?

With that type of logic, I understand why it's always the ref's fault.

[timvp]

Explain that one to me, because I'm not sure how that's a hand-check. The way I understand it, a defender may touch an opponent anywhere on the court as long as it does not impede the player's progress.

If a player has the ball and his back isn't turned to the basket, you aren't allowed to put your hand on him. That's the new rule. It doesn't matter if they are driving to the basket, passing the ball or what. It's a foul.

[Obstructed_View]

Cool. I didn't know the thing about having your back to the basket. I thought that was below the free throw line only. Either way, since it wasn't incedental contact, and it was initiated by Barry, it's a foul. Again, by itself it means nothing, but it certainly isn't the only time in the game that someone touched someone else, and it was very ticky tack for a playoff game.

I'm getting off this train, because I don't like being on this side of the tracks. I don't think the game was fixed, and I certainly don't think the refs do a bad job, I just don't believe there's any way to justify the small number of bizarre calls in that game regarding one player. I would never have said a word about it if the Spurs had lost the game, because I hate everything about blaming someone else for a loss. It's an interesting topic for debate until the conspiracy nuts get involved.

[Guru of Nothing]

If refs are biased and the game is rigged, what are you bitching about? In fact, why are you watching it if you think some suit in a boardroom is deciding the outcome?

I did not say the game was rigged.

Sometimes it's okay to read AND comprehend.

[spurster]

I thought the ticky-tack fouls went both ways in Game 2 though the refs seemed to go out of their way to call the Spurs share on Bowen. It won't help Seattle any. If Crybaby Ray gets touch calls, then TD will get all the Seattle bigmen in foul trouble.

[TwoHandJam]

How come Bowen doesn't get in foul trouble versus Vince Carter after Carter said Bowen injured him. He must not have that "mastery" you talk about yet, right?
I thought you were better than this. Carter was out for weeks following his injury so there couldn't have been any immediate retaliation. When time passes, so does the controversy. Regardless, calling refs out doesn't always lead to an effect but most of the time it does if the statements are inflammatory enough. There are few absolutes in sports if that's what you're looking for.




Make-up fouls exist in every sport. It's just more noticeable in the NBA.Ok. I'm convinced.




Do you read what you post?



You say that and then I show you that it didn't happen and then you say it wasn't about Bruce. Make up your mind and stop fishing for ways to justify your whining.
I said Bowen wasn't a factor in that series so he wasn't whined about in the press. Jackson has whined about Bowen before and gotten results but not in that series. Try learning how to read before getting your panties in a twist.




I don't even know why I waste my time with someone who didn't watch the series. Parker made a total of five free throws in the first two games. He must not have been "drawing fouls on contact" too much then, aye?The issue in the first games is that he was aloud to drive the lane but not when the series shifted to LA. Even when he (and others) drove and were fouled, there were no whistles. A lot more physicality was aloud when previously it hadn't been. Even Popovich mentioned this in the press if I'm not mistaken. This happens often from crew to crew, even within a series. Consistency is for shit.



For you to even bring up the refs shows how weak of a fan you are. Your team lost. Man up and admit that and stop looking for excuses that didn't exist. I already said the refs weren't the reason they lost that series and that series was not the focal point of my discussion. I mentioned it wrt consistency. You're just trying to pigeonhole the argument into your tired belief that everyone who complains about refs are whiners that think they're out to get their team.


You came out attacking me in this thread. Don't start whining now becaue you can't handle the heat. Maybe it's a ref bias that you are losing.At least I attacked you on the issues, not about who your brother-in-law is. Grow up.


I obviously read it before? How do you come to that? Because I ask you to copy and paste?

With that type of logic, I understand why it's always the ref's fault.You've posted in numerous threads about officiating so how is it a stretch to assume you read the comments? Hello?

Since it's early morning today and you're too lazy, I'll post the link here (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14946&highlight=timeout) for your convenience.

[Obstructed_View]

I did not say the game was rigged.

Sometimes it's okay to read AND comprehend.

The fact is you repeatedly say that the game isn't rigged while arguing the contrary. You suggest that the NBA non-verbally strong-arms the refs into influencing the outcome of games for the benefit of big markets or more games. Must be my lack of comprehension, but that sounds like rigging to me, and I wouldn't give a dime of my money to a sport that I thought was doing that.

[Spurminator]

I don't see how there can be any question that referee crews are not 100% objective or consistent. It's not necessarily about a league-wide conspiracy to favor one team over the other, but if we accept the fact that the home team typically gets more calls in their favor then it's not out of the question that there may be other areas where the officiating might skew.

Referee crews make adjustments, just like teams. Sometimes they over-adjust, like Game 2. The foul calling on Bowen was inexcuseable, and it's laughable to suggest that it was only a coincidence. Regardless of what the Spurs said AFTER the game, you could tell by watching their expressions during the game that they knew what was up. Everyone did.

That said, I wouldn't belabor the point because I think things will even out. I expect Bowen to be allowed to play more physical in Game 3, because I believe more adjustments will be made by the referee crew.

And given the nature of the game, someone is bound to end up feeling screwed.

[T Park]

Anyone that thinks, that the ref with the salt and pepper slicked back hair, wasnt gotten to before that game and told,

"Look, call it tight when Allen has the ball"


Everytime allen had the ball, hell, he FELL ON HIS OWN AND GOT A CALL.


Once again, THE WORST, referees in ANY Sport period.

[timvp]

I thought you were better than this. Carter was out for weeks following his injury so there couldn't have been any immediate retaliation. When time passes, so does the controversy. Regardless, calling refs out doesn't always lead to an effect but most of the time it does if the statements are inflammatory enough. There are few absolutes in sports if that's what you're looking for.

Yet another case of you calling something and it being wrong. Congrats.



I said Bowen wasn't a factor in that series so he wasn't whined about in the press. Jackson has whined about Bowen before and gotten results but not in that series.

Make up your mind.



The issue in the first games is that he was aloud to drive the lane but not when the series shifted to LA. Even when he (and others) drove and were fouled, there were no whistles. A lot more physicality was aloud when previously it hadn't been. Even Popovich mentioned this in the press if I'm not mistaken. This happens often from crew to crew, even within a series. Consistency is for shit.

He wasn't "aloud" to drive through the lane after game two because the Lakers changed their defense. They started doubling him off pick-and-rolls and made it impossible to to get into the lane. You can cry that there weren't enough foul calls, but that wasn't the case. It's just the case of you being a whiny fan.

Do you have a link on the Pop quote you are talking about? Didn't think so.


I already said the refs weren't the reason they lost that series and that series was not the focal point of my discussion. I mentioned it wrt consistency. You're just trying to pigeonhole the argument into your tired belief that everyone who complains about refs are whiners that think they're out to get their team.

Okay if it wasn't the refs who lost the series, then why are you whining? The Spurs got outplayed and outcoached. End of story. Even if the refs tried to help the Spurs win that series, they were shooting so bad that it wouldn't have helped.


At least I attacked you on the issues, not about who your brother-in-law is. Grow up.

:lol

I'm sorry. But notice that I didn't get a technical foul. Probably a conspiracy.

Go start another whining thread.


You've posted in numerous threads about officiating so how is it a stretch to assume you read the comments? Hello?

Since it's early morning today and you're too lazy, I'll post the link here (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14946&highlight=timeout) for your convenience.

I post when I see fans such as yourself weeping over nothing. Since they can't man up, they resort to whining about the refs. It happens in every sport. You are not alone.

I'll check out you link later.

Thanks.

:smokin

[timvp]

I don't see how there can be any question that referee crews are not 100% objective or consistent. It's not necessarily about a league-wide conspiracy to favor one team over the other, but if we accept the fact that the home team typically gets more calls in their favor then it's not out of the question that there may be other areas where the officiating might skew.

Referee crews make adjustments, just like teams. Sometimes they over-adjust, like Game 2. The foul calling on Bowen was inexcuseable, and it's laughable to suggest that it was only a coincidence. Regardless of what the Spurs said AFTER the game, you could tell by watching their expressions during the game that they knew what was up. Everyone did.

That said, I wouldn't belabor the point because I think things will even out. I expect Bowen to be allowed to play more physical in Game 3, because I believe more adjustments will be made by the referee crew.

And given the nature of the game, someone is bound to end up feeling screwed.

Exactly. It will even out.

I re-watched the game again and noticed a bunch of questionable offensive fouls on the Sonics when Bowen flopped. That tells me that they were just hypersensitive about everything regarding Bowen. That won't last more than one game.

[timvp]

Anyone that thinks, that the ref with the salt and pepper slicked back hair, wasnt gotten to before that game and told,

"Look, call it tight when Allen has the ball"


Everytime allen had the ball, hell, he FELL ON HIS OWN AND GOT A CALL.


Once again, THE WORST, referees in ANY Sport period.

I rest my case.

[T Park]

rest your case what?

On what??


If youc ant tell that THAT ref, had gotten instuctions to call the game tight on Bowen, well I guess it was just a "freak" think right?

[texbumTHElife]

Are these the "Jim Rome is Burning" forums or what? This is all cracking me up! I dont think i have ever seen the term "man up" used this often in such a short thread.

[timvp]

rest your case what?

On what??


If youc ant tell that THAT ref, had gotten instuctions to call the game tight on Bowen, well I guess it was just a "freak" think right?

Spurs fans beg for Joey Crawford (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14827), get him and then still complain. One day they'll figure out it's not about the refs.

It's about basketball.

[TwoHandJam]

Yet another case of you calling something and it being wrong. Congrats.
How juvenile. Please read what I said and this time, try and digest it.





Make up your mind.What I said was very clear the first time. You just didn't understand it. This is what I said the first time:
Jackson was the ultimate puppet master at getting calls and every time he whined about Bruce, Bruce paid for it the next game. Please show me where I was referring to the series in 2003. Thank you.





He wasn't "aloud" to drive through the lane after game two because the Lakers changed their defense. They started doubling him off pick-and-rolls and made it impossible to to get into the lane. You can cry that there weren't enough foul calls, but that wasn't the case. It's just the case of you being a whiny fan.

Do you have a link on the Pop quote you are talking about? Didn't think so.



Okay if it wasn't the refs who lost the series, then why are you whining? The Spurs got outplayed and outcoached. End of story. Even if the refs tried to help the Spurs win that series, they were shooting so bad that it wouldn't have helped.
:blah How typical. How did I know the meat of your response would have everything to do about dragging the discussion into the 2003 LA series. I referred to that series as a footnote to highlight problems with consistency in officiating. However, your agenda and 4th grade analysis continues to harp on it because you'd like to make the issue about "whiners" who don't "man up" and are into conspiracy theories. How many times do I need to say that this isn't the issue?



I'm sorry. But notice that I didn't get a technical foul. Probably a conspiracy.

Go start another whining thread.


I post when I see fans such as yourself weeping over nothing. Since they can't man up, they resort to whining about the refs. It happens in every sport. You are not alone.
Could your rhetoric be any worse? You sound a little deranged now.



I'll check out you link later.
Translation: I rather keep pushing my agenda now because the real discussion scares me. I think you need to "man up" and read the link.

[2centsworth]

Complaining about officiating is a waste of time. The best team in a 7 game series almost always wins. Sure the officiating slightly benefited the Sonics in Game 2, but overall not too bad, maybe 5 or 6 bad calls. I'll give them a C- for their performance. However, I do think Pop should make a point of protecting Tony and Manu from the unnecessary roughness at the end of ball games, but he doesn't have to do it in the media.

I love Pop and the Spurs attitude when it comes to officiating. They pretty much tell everyone one that the officials are going to save them because we're still gonna kick your ass. That is Hard!

[yeahone]

I've had a few, so hopefully you can win this tiny debate.

Did Jeff Van Gundy lie?

Are the NBA refs biased in the Sonic's favor in tonight's game?

Please lead with yes or no responses.

no

[yeahone]

I called him out in the game blog thread already. You'd have to be blind to not see the bias tonight, and it's certainly not the first time. This is nothing new.

The whole thing about believing JVG was "lying" is also funny.

i think van gundy lied.

[yeahone]

I have never been one to call out officials. I firmly believe that players control their own actions but tonight almost shook my faith. 5 fouls on Bruce and one was quasi-legit. The first one, Allen jumped into Bowen. Thankfully the Spurs still one. Fuck you Ray.


it just show the loosxer mentatality that is been shown by ray.

[TwoHandJam]

Exactly. It will even out.

I re-watched the game again and noticed a bunch of questionable offensive fouls on the Sonics when Bowen flopped. That tells me that they were just hypersensitive about everything regarding Bowen. That won't last more than one game.Question: why were they hypersensitive? Answer: because of Ray's flaming allegations and incessant whining in the press.

Is it a conspiracy? No. Will it be temporary? Yes.

Should it be happening? No.

Does this only happen to the Spurs? No.

I guess officials can be influenced. Thank you. Case closed.

[yeahone]

:blah

Ray Allen bitched before game one. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? Ray Allen bitched before the last regular season game. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? The Nuggets bitched the whole series. How many times was Bowen in foul trouble?

If you can't man up and watch basketball without blaming the refs after every game, then I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes the breaks go against you. Sack up and take it like a man and wipe the tears away.

Bowen and the rest of the Spurs don't worry about and neither should you.

i thinkl it just shows that when ever allen wants somthing who goes to the public.

[kskonn]

here is what I think happens:

These refs go eat dinner have a beer whatever... They talk about their job, just like anyone else. they have discussions just like we are having, one ref might say "man that Allen needs to grow up" and another might say that " Bowen is a dirty player" either way they talk and shape opionions amongst themselves. They may think one crew was calling the game totally wrong so they may call it differently. How many times do peoiple form an opinion about someone they have never met. The refs are no different. Are some of them assholes and don't like certain players? yea of course, but just like any other job, peoples pereption about you is part of what you go through. You have to live with it.

[picnroll]

I checked around at other NBA boards. Posters on most of these boards generally hate on Bowen as a "dirty" player. Half the posters swear he's maimed or murdered most players in the league. On this one the general concensus was that Bowen was getting hosed by the refs and Allen's whining had done the trick. Many were totally disgusted. If perception is relaity those refs changed the way they called things. It's pretty safe to say if this wasn't an anomaly and refs keep this up Bowen will no longer be an effective player.

[kskonn]

I checked around at other NBA boards. Posters on most of these boards generally hate on Bowen as a "dirty" player. Half the posters swear he's maimed or murdered most players in the league. On this one the general concensus was that Bowen was getting hosed by the refs and Allen's whining had done the trick. Many were totally disgusted. If perception is relaity those refs changed the way they called things. It's pretty safe to say if this wasn't an anomaly and refs keep this up Bowen will no longer be an effective player.

Yea I agree with that, but I also think that different refs have a different perception of Bowen. Just like Pippen thinks he sucks and Barkley thinks he is great. What is interesting to me was that ginobli was all over ray allen and Allen did not say a word about that. It almost looked like ginobli took a " if you think bruce is physical wait till I guard you" approach.

[picnroll]

Manu got a couple of cheap fouls guarding Allen too. The refs' force shield around Ray was set at maximum level.

[GrandeDavid]

Refs screw up. That's a fact. But I just find bias and favoritism a little hard to believe. I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and say that the refs' jobs are well-protected and, furthermore, most of them do NOT, repeat NOT, need the added income. I believe most refs have professional backgrounds, even executives on multinational company boards. I think that for the most part they are ethical and probably proud. I think that, if anything, too much bitching and moaning would only get under their skin. So I think that most, if not all, of the refs try to call an honest game. But that does not mean that I don't want to throw my television set at some of them from time to time.

[picnroll]

I know a lot of them cheated on their income taxes.

[smeagol]

Since when did Spur fans turn into Nuggets fans?

[timvp]

How juvenile. Please read what I said and this time, try and digest it.

You aren't understanding yourself. You keep coming up with scenarios and I keep shooting them down. Then you come up with insults that are only funny in your middle school classes.

But then again, fans whose life is dedicated to blaming the refs typically have an IQ somewhere between an inanimate object and a tree slug.


What I said was very clear the first time. You just didn't understand it. This is what I said the first time: Please show me where I was referring to the series in 2003. Thank you.

What are you referring to? You just make a bunch of broad accusations and then when I prove them wrong, you make it even broader. Give me some facts. You have only pointed to opinions so far.




:blah How typical. How did I know the meat of your response would have everything to do about dragging the discussion into the 2003 LA series. I referred to that series as a footnote to highlight problems with consistency in officiating. However, your agenda and 4th grade analysis continues to harp on it because you'd like to make the issue about "whiners" who don't "man up" and are into conspiracy theories. How many times do I need to say that this isn't the issue?

:lol

This was the paragraph I was responding to:


The issue in the first games is that he was aloud to drive the lane but not when the series shifted to LA. Even when he (and others) drove and were fouled, there were no whistles. A lot more physicality was aloud when previously it hadn't been. Even Popovich mentioned this in the press if I'm not mistaken. This happens often from crew to crew, even within a series. Consistency is for shit.

Yeah that wasn't all about the LA series. What was I thinking? Man, you've lost it. :lol

It's the same thing over and over again. Every time I trap you, you just make the argument broader and broader. Man up and post something factual for once. Talking in generic terms only makes it seem like you don't know what you are talking about.

Oh yeah, I didn't think you'd have a link to that Pop quote either. Typical TwoHandJam to quote three paragraphs and then make the situation broader so that he can escape.


Could your rhetoric be any worse? You sound a little deranged now.

When in doubt, don't respond.

Brilliant.



Translation: I rather keep pushing my agenda now because the real discussion scares me. I think you need to "man up" and read the link.

Translation: I was getting off of the computer. I'll gladly respond now that I have the time.

[timvp]

Have you ever tried to get a friend to start watching the NBA? Usually the first comment out of their mouths is "I don't understand what a foul is."

That probably has more to do with just beginning to watch the sport. Most people who know the game can predict with at least a 90% accuracy whether or not a foul is committed. If you can't, then that just means you don't know enough.

Sorry.


That's because from one game to the next - and even within the same game, what qualifies as a foul seems pretty subjective at times. The refs just aren't as good as they could be imo.

They aren't going to be perfect. NBA basketball is the hardest sport on earth to ref. It's a fast game with the best athletes in the world. Of course the refs are going to blow calls here and there, but for the most part they do an awesome job.

Have you ever watched international basketball? They have horrible refs. The college game is a lot easier to ref and even there the quality isn't that good.


The glaring problem with NBA refs is that they are allowed to police their own. They are supposed to review and reprimand any underperforming refs with the ultimate authority being the director of officials - himself a referee.

:lol

Shows how much you know. The director of officials isn't a ref. He used to be but isn't now.

It's the same way in baseball and football. I'm not sure about hockey, but I'm guessing so.


This. Never. Works. Any psychology undergrad will tell you that people cannot be trusted to police themselves because they always have their own best interests at heart. Nobody wants to fire one of their own for incompetence. It's the reason that any investigation in police misconduct for example is invetigated by the department of internal affairs - a separate and presumably more neutral third party organization.

Ex-refs are not biased. I'd agree that if the refs were being judged by other current refs, that'd be a sticky situation. But each ref is graded after every game. They review the first half at halftime to see what plays they called right and which plays they called wrong. If the refs don't grade high enough, they aren't allowed to advance into the playoffs. If they grade consistently low, they are thrown out of the league.


I think the NBA could do two things to improve the quality of its refs:

1) Create a neutral third party to review referee performance and hire/fire refs.

First of all, ex-refs would know better than anyone on how to judge whether a good job was done or not. They've been there and they know how different circumstances lead to different calls.

Second of all, I'm not sure if you understand that the refs have a union. To make such a drastic change, you'd have to pass it thru them. I'm not too sure they are going to want to be judged by a bunch of people who haven't lived it.


2) Change the rules such that each coach could challenge a call once per half. I don't think this would have an adverse effect in terms of slowing down the game. You could even remove one full and/or one 20sec timeout from the current allotment to compensate as I think they're too many timeouts in games anyway.

It might work in theory, but to make this a reality you'd have to come up with a huge set of restrictions. Like in the NFL, only certain things could be reviewed. You can't review judgment calls.

If you want to limit it to out-of-bounds plays, goaltends and things of that nature, sure it could work. But to me that would be unnecessary. Why halt play for a couple minutes, bring out the monitors and check four calls a game? In the NFL it makes sense because there are a limited number of plays. In the NBA, each team has the ball so many teams that it correcting one or two calls a game isn't worth the hoopla.

[timvp]

Complaining about officiating is a waste of time. The best team in a 7 game series almost always wins. Sure the officiating slightly benefited the Sonics in Game 2, but overall not too bad, maybe 5 or 6 bad calls. I'll give them a C- for their performance. However, I do think Pop should make a point of protecting Tony and Manu from the unnecessary roughness at the end of ball games, but he doesn't have to do it in the media.

I love Pop and the Spurs attitude when it comes to officiating. They pretty much tell everyone one that the officials are going to save them because we're still gonna kick your ass. That is Hard!

Exactly. The Spurs don't complain about the refs in the media and to me that makes them much more fun to watch.

I think maybe whiny fans like TwoHandJam would be better served being Nugget fans or something.

[timvp]

Question: why were they hypersensitive? Answer: because of Ray's flaming allegations and incessant whining in the press.

Is it a conspiracy? No. Will it be temporary? Yes.

Should it be happening? No.

Does this only happen to the Spurs? No.

I guess officials can be influenced. Thank you. Case closed.

:lmao

The freak conducts an interview with himself.

Classic.

[timvp]

Since when did Spur fans turn into Nuggets fans?

So true.

The Spurs are all class when it comes to the refs. They argue on the court but when the game is over, they take the result like men and go out and try to win the next game.

Too bad they have fans who are the weeping, Canadien version of George Karl.

[bigzak25]

i will always believe that spreads are fixed in certain big money games...

[smeagol]

Complaining against the refs seems to be deeply embeded in our nature as human beings. In every single sport, fans complain against the refs. In Argentina, when the refs enter the soccer field before a game (the ref and the two linesmen do it together, 5 minutes before the game starts), the fans boo and whistle like there was no tomorrow. I find it so stupid.

I agree with all timvp says. Specially with the fact that oficiating an NBA game must be a tough job, and the NBA refs do a good job at it.

The proof of this is that after an important game, if you go to the fan boards of the two teams that just played, you will find that in both boards, fans are complaining about the refs.

They say that if a jury's veredict does not satisfy either party, then justice has been served. Same thing here. The fact that everybody complains against the refs is proof enough that there is no fix.

Ask a Lakers fan and he will say that Tim gets away with fouls all the time. Ask a Spurs fan and he will say Tim does not get enough calls. And the list goes on and on.

Make in it a habit to complain against the refs is weak. Man, just go the LG.net and read their equivalent of our Game Blog. Its pathetic.

I hope Spurs fan don't mutate into Laker or Denver fans. That would be sad.

[timvp]

Complaining against the refs seems to be deeply embeded in our nature as human beings. In every single sport, fans complain against the refs. In Argentina, when the refs enter the soccer field before a game (the ref and the two linesmen do it together, 5 minutes before the game starts), the fans boo and whistle like there was no tomorrow. I find it so stupid.

I agree with all timvp says. Specially with the fact that oficiating an NBA game must be a tough job, and the NBA refs do a good job at it.

The proof of this is that after an important game, if you go to the fan boards of the two teams that just played, you will find that in both boards, fans are complaining about the refs.

They say that if a jury's veredict does not satisfy either party, then justice has been served. Same thing here. The fact that everybody complains against the refs is proof enough that there is no fix.

Ask a Lakers fan and he will say that Tim gets away with fouls all the time. Ask a Spurs fan and he will say Tim does not get enough calls. And the list goes on and on.

Make in it a habit to complain against the refs is weak. Man, just go the LG.net and read their equivalent of our Game Blog. Its pathetic.

I hope Spurs fan don't mutate into Laker or Denver fans. That would be sad.

Well said.

Every sport has fans complaining about the refs. It's what they do.

Some are smart enough to realize that and just sit back and enjoy the game. Others watch games just to sit there and cry about the refs. It's pathetic, really.

[T Park]

If anyone thinks these refs are good, they are kidding themselves.

They blow OBVIOUS calls, OBVIOUS.


But, dont dare state that, or your "not a real spurs fan"

[Obstructed_View]

At the risk of having a stream of profanity thrown at me, did it ever occur to you that the calls are only obvious to the 20 cameras they have trained on everything on the court, and the fact that they show the replays after choosing the view with the best angle of the play and slow it down for all of us to see? Stand down there and watch 10 of the best athletes in the world running up and down the court slamming into each other and bodies will hit the floor before you even get the whistle in your mouth. Don't even take into account posession, the shot clock, the game clock, the three second rule, inbounds plays and the three point line, which are all things that the officials have to watch for 48 minutes and you realize what a small percentage they miss, and how few completely obvious ones they miss. Watch how horrible the calls were in the olympics, as a good example. Basketball is difficult to officiate, and they do a good job.

That's why I think there was something else involved, but I've already said that.

[Guru of Nothing]

Watch how horrible the calls were in the olympics, as a good example.

You got me there. NBA refs > Olympic officials.

[TwoHandJam]

:lmao

The freak conducts an interview with himself.

Classic.
Good rebuttal timvp. You claimed yourself that the refs were hypersensitive to Bowen. Any ideas as to why all the scrutiny on Bowen? Maybe because Ray Allen went nuts in the press? Nah, couldn't have anything to do with it.

I catch you dead to rights on the very issue I've been flogging and the best you can come up with is a smilie. Nice.

[timvp]

Question: why were they hypersensitive? Answer: because they were calling touch fouls on the perimeter on both teams. It just so happens that Ray Allen is the Sonics' go-to player and Bowen got some cheap fouls. But don't forget that Bowen flopped and got 3 or 4 fouls called on illegal screens.

Is it a conspiracy? No. Will it be temporary? Yes. For whatever reason, the officiating crew was calling it closer on the perimeter.

Should it be happening? Refs aren't perfect.

Does this only happen to the Spurs? No.

TwoHandJam needs to watch more basketball so he learns the game. Right now he just whines about refs because he doesn't know any better.

[TwoHandJam]

That probably has more to do with just beginning to watch the sport. Most people who know the game can predict with at least a 90% accuracy whether or not a foul is committed. If you can't, then that just means you don't know enough.

Sorry.
Weak answer. I know many people personally who have not been able to appreciate the sport because they can't figure out from game to game what constitutes a foul. This is a direct reflection of the inconsistency of crews from game to game. It is a very real problem. Even players have to adapt to "how the game is being called". If they have to figure it out from game to game, how's the casual fan supposed to figure it out? If you're just beginning to watch the game, it is a huge turnoff. Even with the NHL lockout, I've not been able to recruit people into watching the NBA because of this.




They aren't going to be perfect. NBA basketball is the hardest sport on earth to ref. It's a fast game with the best athletes in the world. Of course the refs are going to blow calls here and there, but for the most part they do an awesome job.

Have you ever watched international basketball? They have horrible refs. The college game is a lot easier to ref and even there the quality isn't that good.
Exactly. They should be doing a much better job but they hardly even try.


Shows how much you know. The director of officials isn't a ref. He used to be but isn't now. I know he's no longer a ref. Do you really think it makes a huge difference that he isn't one now? Do you honestly think he's lost all allegiances and sympathies for referees? Do you think it's possible he worked with refs who are still active now? Please. If I'm a doctor who practiced for 30 years but is no longer a doctor, do you think I'd be more likely to make friends with practicing GP or not?


Ex-refs are not biased. I'd agree that if the refs were being judged by other current refs, that'd be a sticky situation. But each ref is graded after every game. They review the first half at halftime to see what plays they called right and which plays they called wrong. If the refs don't grade high enough, they aren't allowed to advance into the playoffs. If they grade consistently low, they are thrown out of the league.How many refs have been turfed over the years? I'd say the turnover is pretty low.


First of all, ex-refs would know better than anyone on how to judge whether a good job was done or not. They've been there and they know how different circumstances lead to different calls. It is true that ex-refs would be qualified to judge calls but I doubt it's a skill that couldn't be learned by someone who wasn't a ref. If you absolutely had to have ex-refs on the disciplinary panel, it would be a good idea to recruit them from another league so there's absolutely no conflict of interest.


Second of all, I'm not sure if you understand that the refs have a union. To make such a drastic change, you'd have to pass it thru them. I'm not too sure they are going to want to be judged by a bunch of people who haven't lived it. I'm sure their union would cry foul. They have it pretty good right now. Being a NBA ref is akin to having achieved tenure as a professor. You'd have to practically knife a student to get fired.


It might work in theory, but to make this a reality you'd have to come up with a huge set of restrictions. Like in the NFL, only certain things could be reviewed. You can't review judgment calls. Why not? You could review pretty much anything. If a flag is thrown to issue a challenge that stops play, you could institute a penality of 2 shots and loss of possession if the challenge is overturned. Judgement calls would be decided by majority votes of the 3 officials upon review. If you eliminate some timeouts like I mentioned, I doubt it slows the game down at all. It would lead to instant, public feedback of the refs and more accurate and exciting bball as the coaches would have to leave the team to it's own devices more often due to the fewer timeouts.


If you want to limit it to out-of-bounds plays, goaltends and things of that nature, sure it could work. But to me that would be unnecessary. Why halt play for a couple minutes, bring out the monitors and check four calls a game? In the NFL it makes sense because there are a limited number of plays. In the NBA, each team has the ball so many teams that it correcting one or two calls a game isn't worth the hoopla.Yeah, I'm sure that's what you'd think if you were JVG on that play by Finley with two feet out of bounds that pretty much decided a close playoff game. Had we lost at Denver when Tim was ejected after Melo slipped, I'm sure you'd have been understanding of that call as well.

[TwoHandJam]

You aren't understanding yourself. You keep coming up with scenarios and I keep shooting them down. Then you come up with insults that are only funny in your middle school classes.

But then again, fans whose life is dedicated to blaming the refs typically have an IQ somewhere between an inanimate object and a tree slug.Please clearly highlight the scenarios you "shot down". All you've done is deflect the discussion completely towards LA 2004 even though I only referenced it once in passing. You're all about reducing this argument to Spurs related "whining" instead of listening to the real issues. You can't write two sentences without spewing some kind of "man up" nonsense.


You have only pointed to opinions so far. As have you. You feel that the refs are doing their best and the system couldn't possibly be improved. You think we should praise Allah that we don't have international refs and we should be grateful with what we have. I think you're wrong. The very nature of this argument is at least half subjective.


Oh yeah, I didn't think you'd have a link to that Pop quote either. Typical TwoHandJam to quote three paragraphs and then make the situation broader so that he can escape.I'll do my best to find it for you.

[Guru of Nothing]

Since when did Spur fans turn into Nuggets fans?

Am I missing something? Is there an utopian order of Spurs fans who don't boo the refs when they miss a call?

This thread is about NBA refs, not Spur fans. If you have something to say, state your case.

[ALVAREZ6]

Am I missing something? Is there an utopian order of Spurs fans who don't boo the refs when they miss a call?

This thread is about NBA refs, not Spur fans. If you have something to say, state your case.
Perhaps what he meant was that we are still bitching about refs, when that is a very popular thing to do in Denver....

[Guru of Nothing]

Perhaps what he meant was that we are still bitching about refs, when that is a very popular thing to do in Denver....

At least you comprehend one of us.

[timvp]

Weak answer. I know many people personally who have not been able to appreciate the sport because they can't figure out from game to game what constitutes a foul. This is a direct reflection of the inconsistency of crews from game to game. It is a very real problem. Even players have to adapt to "how the game is being called". If they have to figure it out from game to game, how's the casual fan supposed to figure it out? If you're just beginning to watch the game, it is a huge turnoff. Even with the NHL lockout, I've not been able to recruit people into watching the NBA because of this.

First of all, if you are new to the sport then you are going to be confused when you first start watching. Learn the game over time and you'll learn and predict how the game will be called.

Players and coaches will always have to slightly adjust to the way games are called until the day that the games are reffed by robots. Even then, you'll probably still complain that R2DickBavett2 made the wrong call.


Exactly. They should be doing a much better job but they hardly even try.

NBA refs are the best. It's not a matter of not trying. It's a matter of being a difficult sport to ref. In fact, it's impossible to ref correctly all the time. It's a series of judgments made in fractions of seconds. You are never going to eliminate the human element.


I know he's no longer a ref.

Yeah you obviously knew he wasn't a ref by the comment: "The glaring problem with NBA refs is that they are allowed to police their own. They are supposed to review and reprimand any underperforming refs with the ultimate authority being the director of officials - himself a referee."

Now you are lying. Nice.


Do you really think it makes a huge difference that he isn't one now? Do you honestly think he's lost all allegiances and sympathies for referees? Do you think it's possible he worked with refs who are still active now? Please. If I'm a doctor who practiced for 30 years but is no longer a doctor, do you think I'd be more likely to make friends with practicing GP or not?

Not if his job depends on it. There really isn't much work out there for a retired NBA ref.

A retired ref would know better than anyone whether a current ref is doing a good job.


How many refs have been turfed over the years? I'd say the turnover is pretty low.

I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but there are numerous refs that are gone. Look it up if you care.


It is true that ex-refs would be qualified to judge calls but I doubt it's a skill that couldn't be learned by someone who wasn't a ref. If you absolutely had to have ex-refs on the disciplinary panel, it would be a good idea to recruit them from another league so there's absolutely no conflict of interest.

:lol

From another league? There aren't exactly NBAs everywhere. No other league on earth is even close. For one, the rules are different everywhere.

The more you talk, the less respect I have for your opinion on this subject.


Why not? You could review pretty much anything. If a flag is thrown to issue a challenge that stops play, you could institute a penality of 2 shots and loss of possession if the challenge is overturned. Judgement calls would be decided by majority votes of the 3 officials upon review. If you eliminate some timeouts like I mentioned, I doubt it slows the game down at all. It would lead to instant, public feedback of the refs and more accurate and exciting bball as the coaches would have to leave the team to it's own devices more often due to the fewer timeouts.

Yeah, and Santa Clause can come out and give presents to the fans while they wait. What reality do you live in?

The day will never come that a coach can challenge a block/charge and the refs go to the sidelines and vote on what the call should be.

Please.


Yeah, I'm sure that's what you'd think if you were JVG on that play by Finley with two feet out of bounds that pretty much decided a close playoff game. Had we lost at Denver when Tim was ejected after Melo slipped, I'm sure you'd have been understanding of that call as well.

Tim was ejected? News to me.

Perhaps if you took a refresher course on basketball, you wouldn't be so confused over what is a foul.

[smeagol]

But, dont dare state that, or your "not a real spurs fan"
No, you are whinney spurs fan. A real one, but whinney nonetheless.

[smeagol]

Am I missing something? Is there an utopian order of Spurs fans who don't boo the refs when they miss a call?
You can boo all you want. Its a free country.


This thread is about NBA refs, not Spur fans. If you have something to say, state your case.
I already have. Here's what I have to say (posted on page three), in case you missed it:


Complaining against the refs seems to be deeply embeded in our nature as human beings. In every single sport, fans complain against the refs. In Argentina, when the refs enter the soccer field before a game (the ref and the two linesmen do it together, 5 minutes before the game starts), the fans boo and whistle like there was no tomorrow. I find it so stupid.

I agree with all timvp says. Specially with the fact that oficiating an NBA game must be a tough job, and the NBA refs do a good job at it.

The proof of this is that after an important game, if you go to the fan boards of the two teams that just played, you will find that in both boards, fans are complaining about the refs.

They say that if a jury's veredict does not satisfy either party, then justice has been served. Same thing here. The fact that everybody complains against the refs is proof enough that there is no fix.

Ask a Lakers fan and he will say that Tim gets away with fouls all the time. Ask a Spurs fan and he will say Tim does not get enough calls. And the list goes on and on.

Make in it a habit to complain against the refs is weak. Man, just go the LG.net and read their equivalent of our Game Blog. Its pathetic.

I hope Spurs fan don't mutate into Laker or Denver fans. That would be sad

[Obstructed_View]

You got me there. NBA refs > Olympic officials.
Thank you, but on further consideration, it wasn't a very good example on my part. The olympic officials hate Americans as much as anyone else, and the olympic committee as well as FIBA is probably about as corrupt a bunch as there is. Suggesting that it's just incompetence is probably wrong. I don't watch much college basketball, but I don't recall there being a ton of terrible calls.

[Obstructed_View]

Perhaps what he meant was that we are still bitching about refs, when that is a very popular thing to do in Denver....
The Nuggets fans think they should get every call, and think that people that beat them should be physically harmed. The main point of this thread, as far as I'm concerned, is that Ray Allen should mathematically not have gotten nearly every call in his favor in an otherwise evenly officiated game. If that makes me a bad Spurs fan, then it's a good thing I don't watch the Spurs to impress other people. If some of you guys aren't willng to acknowledge that it seemed odd, then there's no point in having a conversation about it anyway.

[Guru of Nothing]

I've come to the conclusion that we cannot discuss the actions of refs without questioning the character of the individual who questions the refs.

BYE!

[Obstructed_View]

I agree. As I mentioned before, I would never have entered this conversation had the Spurs lost the game just because it would look like sour grapes. Thank god the next game is about to start. As I think this thread proves, we were seriously thin on anything interesting to discuss about game 2.

[TwoHandJam]

First of all, if you are new to the sport then you are going to be confused when you first start watching. Learn the game over time and you'll learn and predict how the game will be called.

Players and coaches will always have to slightly adjust to the way games are called until the day that the games are reffed by robots. Even then, you'll probably still complain that R2DickBavett2 made the wrong call.I've watched a lot of NBA games and there is a hell of a lot of variance in the way games are called. More so than any other sport I've watched. Decide on how to call the games and stick to it. Don't ref one game like a rugby match and another like a ballet recital.


NBA refs are the best. It's not a matter of not trying. It's a matter of being a difficult sport to ref. In fact, it's impossible to ref correctly all the time. It's a series of judgments made in fractions of seconds. You are never going to eliminate the human element. That's where the disciplinary changes and replay come in. To reduce the human element. You may think NBA refs are the best but there's a huge contigent that disagrees. The nature of the sport doesn't absolve them from getting better.


Yeah you obviously knew he wasn't a ref by the comment: "The glaring problem with NBA refs is that they are allowed to police their own. They are supposed to review and reprimand any underperforming refs with the ultimate authority being the director of officials - himself a referee."

Now you are lying. Nice.GMAFB. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. I wrote what I did because to me it makes little difference that he's no longer active. The guy was a ref for many years and as far as I'm concerned he still is a ref for all intents and purposes. There is no way in hell he can be impartial towards other refs who used to be his peers.


I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but there are numerous refs that are gone. Look it up if you care.I don't know where to look it up but I'd bet the number that are turfed are very low. I don't often hear about it and I read a lot of press on the NBA.


From another league? There aren't exactly NBAs everywhere. No other league on earth is even close. For one, the rules are different everywhere.

The more you talk, the less respect I have for your opinion on this subject. Get over yourself. Do you really think reffing is such rocket science that a good ref from college or a euroleague couldn't adapt? Spare me.


Yeah, and Santa Clause can come out and give presents to the fans while they wait. What reality do you live in?

The day will never come that a coach can challenge a block/charge and the refs go to the sidelines and vote on what the call should be.

Please.No, you please tell me why not this couldn't be done with the help of video replay.



Tim was ejected? News to me.He received his sixth foul. Any more hairs you wish to split?[/quote]


Perhaps if you took a refresher course on basketball, you wouldn't be so confused over what is a foul.You make me laugh. Those last two reffing snafus I mentioned were very serious and could easily have determined the outcome of playoff games. I'm sure you'd be all smiles about the refs if we lost a playoff game due to calls like that.