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Sorry to gravy train but...
How can you say the league can't have the refs do their bidding when a pussy like Ray Allen can whine in the paper and have the refs covering his back all night long tonight?
I've had a few, so hopefully you can win this tiny debate.
Did Jeff Van Gundy lie?
Are the NBA refs biased in the Sonic's favor in tonight's game?
Please lead with yes or no responses.
Sorry to gravy train but...
How can you say the league can't have the refs do their bidding when a pussy like Ray Allen can whine in the paper and have the refs covering his back all night long tonight?
I can use all the gravy training I can get calling out LJ.
I called him out in the game blog thread already. You'd have to be blind to not see the bias tonight, and it's certainly not the first time. This is nothing new.
The whole thing about believing JVG was "lying" is also funny.
Last edited by TwoHandJam; 05-10-2005 at 11:56 PM.
Yes.
I have never been one to call out officials. I firmly believe that players control their own actions but tonight almost shook my faith. 5 fouls on Bruce and one was quasi-legit. The first one, Allen jumped into Bowen. Thankfully the Spurs still one. you Ray.
And Joey Crawford was leading the crew. I never would have predicted it.
I don't think it was a case of the NBA asking the officials to watch Bowen more closely...
I think Ray Allen just gave the crew some good pussy love before the game.
Yes.
Van Gundy would pimp his own mom to get a win in the playoffs. If he had to make up some ref story to try to let Yao get away with offensive fouls, he was going to do it. I know everyone loves the conspiracy theory and I'm a bit of a wet blanket for letting reality intervene, but JVG was lying.
Coaches and players have worked over the officials/refs/umpires before and between games to gain some sort of an advantage. It happens in every sport where there is a third group involved in the games.
There were a couple bad calls on both sides, but biased? No.Are the NBA refs biased in the Sonic's favor in tonight's game?
There was no league mandate to come and make the Spurs lose. A lot of people will look at the Bruce Bowen fouls and say that the league or refs were sending a message. The truth is that Bowen plays on the thin line between good, solid defense and fouling. Every great defender has navigated that thin line. There is no such thing as a defender who is great and not near fouling.
Bowen got caught a couple times right on that thin line and the ref blew the whistle. Most games, he's not going to receive that many calls. But sometimes when you tiptoe that line, chances are you are going to get in foul trouble here and there. And for Bowen, those games are few and far between. He probably gets in foul trouble in less than 10% of games.
Hard Fouls
Sonics 20+
Spurs 0
I would at least like to see one hard foul by the Spurs. Even though they are winning on the judges card they are still getting their ass kicked like sissies.
I'm not even going to get into the JVG stuff because it's just too re ed but I suppose Bowen picking up 5 fouls in 17 minutes the night after Ray goes postal to the press is just a huge coincidence in your eyes. You know as well as I that only one of the calls on Bowen was legit. If you TIVO'ed the game, go back and review. Your wife is a huge Bowen fan and I'm sure she knows the score. The other calls weren't even close.
timvp, I generally consider you a solid poster but you are losing credibility lately faster than a cat can lick it's ass. Open your eyes. This is not the first time that whining to the press has resulted in a statistical outlier in calls against a player, especially Bowen. Jackson was the ultimate puppet master at getting calls and every time he whined about Bruce, Bruce paid for it the next game. I fail to believe that you've never observed this before.
Last edited by TwoHandJam; 05-11-2005 at 10:56 PM.
Ray Allen ed before game one. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? Ray Allen ed before the last regular season game. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? The Nuggets ed the whole series. How many times was Bowen in foul trouble?
If you can't man up and watch basketball without blaming the refs after every game, then I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes the breaks go against you. Sack up and take it like a man and wipe the tears away.
Bowen and the rest of the Spurs don't worry about and neither should you.
Ray Allen ed before game one. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? Ray Allen ed before the last regular season game. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? The Nuggets ed the whole series. How many times was Bowen in foul trouble?
Don't make me lead you by the hand. He ed before game one but not excessively. After his "injury" in game 1 he turned up the heat big time in the press even going so far as to say that Bowen was responsible. That definitely got results. A franchise player and NBA icon levied serious allegations in the press and you'd better believe the league stood up and took notice. Karl ed about everything but was very derogatory towards the officials and didn't know how to work them in the press. He's a rookie, Jackson was a master. Surely you don't deny this.
There is no league mandate or conspiracy theory to make the Spurs lose and I disagree with those who try and dumb it down to those terms. What does exist is overzealous and gratuitous scrutiny on players by the officials whenever someone takes issue with them in a very public manner. This occurs whether they're on the Spurs or not.
If officials are truly unbiased they should not be influenced by any outside forces. Bowen's anomalous game was most definitely correlated with the events that took place in the press.
Spare me the "man up" crap. You have to be a "man" to tolerate sub-par officiating? Please. This is just tired, macho bull that posters use in a feeble attempt handwaive away the problem with the state of officiating in the NBA.If you can't man up and watch basketball without blaming the refs after every game, then I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes the breaks go against you. Sack up and take it like a man and wipe the tears away.
Bowen and the rest of the Spurs don't worry about and neither should you.
There are real problems. No conspiracy, no league mandate, just mismanagement and mediocrity. I've brought up major problem areas and possible resolutions many times in many posts and you've never seriously addressed any of it. You prefer to throw around the "man up", handwaiving, "problem doesn't exist" angle instead of bringing a real take.
Go review some of my old posts and get back to me when you want to have a serious discussion. I'm not the only poster who sees a problem.
Over-rationalize much? Ray Allen got whistles when guys literally did not touch him. They called Barry for putting a forearm on him when he wasn't moving. Something was up, because they weren't just calling a tight game. It was an otherwise well-officiated game except for the times someone farted in Ray Allen's general direction.
That said, I absolutely won't even entertain the idea that there's a league mandate to punish Bowen unless the same thing happens tomorrow. If it happens with a completely different crew on a different night, all bets are off.
That's crap, redirecting the focus from ref bias to fan testosterone. Personally, the trait I admire most about the Spurs is their refusal to drag themselves down to level on the court and in the press, but that in no way implies they think the refs are stellar, nor competent and unbiased. The refs obviously call the game with a bias that exists outside the letter of the rulebook; but I'll admit they try to call the game within the spirit of the rules - so no grand conspiracy theories from me. Still, as a fan, I have to sit and watch the game with an utterly ridiculous anticipation that the refs will even it all out before the games end (or worse, before a series end)
Face it, the refs devote too much time making amends to the amends they made, and if they do a bad job, the players and coaches employ the media as a how-to seminar on how to "really" call the game, and they amend again. The ease with which Stern could snuff out complaints on game-calling, yet refuses to do (save a protocol error on JVG's part) speaks loud and clear.
Yes he did. You must have missed all the articles and all the time he spent whining to the media.
He was saying the same things before game one. He was saying the same things before the final contest with Bowen this regular season.After his "injury" in game 1 he turned up the heat big time in the press even going so far as to say that Bowen was responsible. That definitely got results.
A franchise player and NBA icon levied serious allegations in the press and you'd better believe the league stood up and took notice. Karl ed about everything but was very derogatory towards the officials and didn't know how to work them in the press. He's a rookie, Jackson was a master. Surely you don't deny this.
That was weak. So Ray Allen and Phil Jackson are "masters" of working the refs. George Karl is a rookie? Yeah, he's only been ing about refs for over ten years.
You are desperate to cry about the refs and you've fallen to humorous depths. Phil Jackson must have been off of his ref "mastery" last year because Bowen only averaged 1.5 fouls per game in the four games the Spurs lost to the Lakers. I thought you said he got Bowen in foul trouble by yapping to the media?
Guess not. Come correct or continue to cry about the refs with Walton. Again, it's time for you to man up.
Man up.Spare me the "man up" crap. You have to be a "man" to tolerate sub-par officiating? Please. This is just tired, macho bull that posters use in a feeble attempt handwaive away the problem with the state of officiating in the NBA.
Bowen doesn't worry about it. Popovich doesn't worry about it. It's a part of the game. If you've ever played basketball, you'll know that sometimes the refs whistle you for bad calls. I've never claimed that refs are perfect.
Link?There are real problems. No conspiracy, no league mandate, just mismanagement and mediocrity. I've brought up major problem areas and possible resolutions many times in many posts and you've never seriously addressed any of it. You prefer to throw around the "man up", handwaiving, "problem doesn't exist" angle instead of bringing a real take.
I'm not going to go TwoHandJam digging. Copy and paste.Go review some of my old posts and get back to me when you want to have a serious discussion. I'm not the only poster who sees a problem.
Or put another way .... and giving a little credence to conspiracy theories, the NBA refs a game much like Bruce Bowen plays defense. They won't go flagrant on marketing-challenged markets, but they will sure as give a nudge.
The sky is sky-blue in my world.
ETA: My small-marketing reference misses the point somewhat. I should have not pulled out that card. In the case of Seatte vs. San Antonio, it might be more about 5 or 6 playoff games instead of 4.
Bad calls happen in every sport. No one ever said the NBA was immune.
That was a correct call. You aren't allowed to handcheck in that situation.They called Barry for putting a forearm on him when he wasn't moving.
How would he "snuff out complaints on game-calling"? That'll never happen. As long as refs are involved, there will be fans there to complain. It's what fans do.
The Spurs must have been double good to win two championships with the NBA against them.
I'm talking about coaches and players, not fans.
The Spurs must have been double good to win two championships with the NBA against them.
Not double good, more like 1.1 good.
What's classic to me is every other team's fan's say that the Spurs get the benefit of the calls. And actually, the Spurs seemingly always lead the league in FT differential. But no, the Big Bad NBA will risk billions of dollars to get the small-market teams like the Spurs out of the playoffs by tilting the playing field.
If people would just think about what would happen if it leaked that the NBA was rigged or even tilting the playing field, we could get rid of these conspiracies.
Players never foul. Coaches are always getting the short end of the stick.
How are you going to reverse this? Don't bogart the knowledge.
I'll never get through to you.
The NBA is not rigged, it is biased - money makes it so, and believe it or not, I'm not here to complain about it, not tonight anyway.
And Stern does not have to tell an official how to call a game. He can get his point across loud and clear implicitly, without a shred of evidence. Do you doubt this?
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