Israel attacks one of 6 ships bringing humanitarian aid to gaza

[Wild Cobra]

Which makes 181 not Turkish. What's your point?The assumption without being said is that the distribution would be more even among the 32 countries. Just a bit unbalanced if you ask me. Look at the bias of reports coming out, like this:

that consists of citizens of 32 different countries including Turkey
When you word something like this, the minor player is normally identified as "including." Not the major player.

Turkey: Israel will pay the price for ‘pirate’ violence (http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-211719-102-turkey-israel-will-pay-the-price-for-pirate-violence.html)

[ChumpDumper]

Look at the bias of reports coming out:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

I can't believe how goddamned dumb the Israelis are. Let's table for the moment the fact that the blockade itself is illegal and inhumane. As a matter of simply preventing the flotilla from penetrating the blockade, the IDF could've accomplished its objective without going all Kent State and resorting to lethal force.
How, by sinking the ship rather than insuring control? The ship would not divert away. It doesn't take long for it to travel 12 miles. If they waited, they have a real short time.

I don't think the potential Pandora's Box that the Israelis have opened is worth the disproportionate use of force in subduing the ship.
If someone attacks me, should I make sure i have an equal weapon for defense? Hell no. I'm going to put them down as fast as I can so I can keep them from doing farther harm.

They could've stationed a gunboat in front of the flotilla forcing it to stop or slow down. Or a frogman could've disabled the propeller and rudder with a small explosive. The immobilized ship could then be towed wherever the Israelis wanted.

How do you immobilize an old passenger ship without sinking it? Have a reliable plan?

They had no intention of heading Israels direction to divert to another port. Waiting would have probably killed many passengers as it sinks. Do we know if they had enough life-boats?


I understand that the people on the boats are not pacifists in the mold of Gandhi or MLK, but they have a right to defend themselves from being boarded and subdued when they are in international waters.

I would say most were pacifists that really are trying to bring aide. The few who attacked the soldiers definitely weren't.


And I have a problem with the argument that no construction materials of any kind can enter Gaza because of their potential conversion into crude mortar rockets that are occasionally lobbed into Israeli territory.

That's not the argument in play.


Those mortar rockets do not pose an existential threat to Israel, but because of it the Gazan population can't rebuild their infrastructure or have indoor plumbing? A toothbrush can be filed down into a shiv, so why not impose a ban on dental hygiene while you're at it? What a crude and irrational government Israel has.

Israel has been for years allowing goods to be moved into Gaza. They just aren't allowing goods to be shipped that they don't inspect.

[ElNono]

The assumption without being said is that the distribution would be more even among the 32 countries.

None of the reports I personally read said that. However, claiming that there was no diversity because the majority was Turk, really IS the definition of cherry picking.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Whoever ordered the operation of the commandos to board that ship is flat out retarded.

Regardless of who started it, neither side is really in the "right" and the press backlash against Israel would have been totally predictable no matter the situation and outcome.

One of the things I do like about the US since Obama took over, he's not bending down on his all fores and spreading his asshole for Israel in plain site. Maybe he's still doing it behind closed doors but with the slant of Isreali-related news the past two years or so, this was totally predictable.

Either stupid move by Israel or brilliant move by the Islamists.



Also--I would love to read some honest, accurate opinions by Israeli citizens. They knew what they were asking for when Netanyahu returned, and noone on this board can deny he's pretty much delivered what he promised and everyone expected. War-hawking bull shit.

[Ghazi]

Don't mind DoK, his ass still hurts from that pounding the Hezb gave em 4 years ago.

tee, hee

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Don't mind DoK, his ass still hurts from that pounding the Hezb gave em 4 years ago.

tee, hee

Most of us here may not agree with Shasta on this, but I think there's pretty much a consensus that you're an ignorant and monumentally annoying prick.

Man, you're dense!

[Ghazi]

Iran/USA alliance :huddle:

[DarrinS]

Man, this worked out just the way the flotilla "peace" activists wanted. They purposely went to confront the Israeli blockade to provoke some kind of idiotic response from the Israeli Navy. They knew this kind of response would ignite anger in the Arab world and an overreaction by a left-leaning media.

Bravo.


Oh, here's a vid of the "peace" activists chanting an Islamic battle cry about killing the Jews.

b3L7OV414Kk

[clambake]

Man, this worked out just the way the flotilla "peace" activists wanted. They purposely went to confront the Israeli blockade to provoke some kind of idiotic response from the Israeli Navy. They knew this kind of response would ignite anger in the Arab world and an overreaction by a left-leaning media.

Bravo.


Oh, here's a vid of the "peace" activists chanting an Islamic battle cry about killing the Jews.

b3L7OV414Kk
so....they were going to ghaza or expected to be killed.

and thanks for it only being 42 seconds.

[Ignignokt]

Israel has a right to inspect boats going towards the West Bank.

I don't see it so gray here. There were hostile protesters in that ship yelling violent phrases towards the israelis. The ship had to get inspected. I would have sent in armed personell to inspect the ship for weapons, as ships supposedly carrying humanitarian aid have held explosives and rpgs in the past. It's not out of the ordinary for these things to happen.

I don't know what else could have been done. There is no tragedy since the protestors wanted to fight the commandos and more than likely would have lynched un armed inspectors.

This is a lose lose situation for Israel, only because the western nations allow themselves to be blind to the fact that arabs lie and cheat 90 percent of the time because they feel outgunned by the israelis.

[Winehole23]

An interesting wrinkle or two in this gloss:


A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.


Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.


There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.



Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.



Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.


In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/the_legal_posit.html

[RandomGuy]

Israel has a right to inspect boats going towards the West Bank.

I don't see it so gray here. There were hostile protesters in that ship yelling violent phrases towards the israelis. The ship had to get inspected. I would have sent in armed personell to inspect the ship for weapons, as ships supposedly carrying humanitarian aid have held explosives and rpgs in the past. It's not out of the ordinary for these things to happen.

I don't know what else could have been done. There is no tragedy since the protestors wanted to fight the commandos and more than likely would have lynched un armed inspectors.

This is a lose lose situation for Israel, only because the western nations allow themselves to be blind to the fact that arabs lie and cheat 90 percent of the time because they feel outgunned by the israelis.

I pretty much agree, except for the last part.

Israel does some pretty unethical things in its own defense especially when it comes to the blockade in Gaza, but it is within their rights to inspect ships coming into their country.

Israel does some things to Palestinians and muslims that, if they were done in any other western country or to Christians, we would be screaming bloody murder about.

The ironic thing for me is that if any of these groups ever really smarted up and started really using the kinds of non-violent protest tactics ala Martin Luther King, Jr. or Ghandi, they would really turn the West against Israel by pointing out that uncomfortable reality in a morally unambiguous manner.

Here those activists gave the Israeli military some pretty prime footage of violence, so they can be somewhat marginalized in the PR war based on that.

Yet another example to me of the real power of non-violence and moral authority, as this is an example of neither.

[RandomGuy]

An interesting wrinkle or two in this gloss:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/the_legal_posit.html


Interesting.

Yet another bit that many pro-Israeli bloggers will probably ignore as being a tad inconvenient.

[TDMVPDPOY]

israel is goin to start the holy war inthe middle east then come callin for eu, nato or usa for help....once the arab countries have had enough with the jews

[ElNono]

An interesting wrinkle or two in this gloss:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/the_legal_posit.html

Interesting. Thanks.

[Wild Cobra]

Israel has a right to inspect boats going towards the West Bank.

I agree.

The point can also be made that since Israel and Hamas are essentially at war, Israel can blow up any ships en route to Gaza.


I don't know what else could have been done. There is no tragedy since the protestors wanted to fight the commandos and more than likely would have lynched un armed inspectors.

Yes, I agree. There is no doubt in my mind that they wanted to cause sympathy towards them. They wanted this media attention.


This is a lose lose situation for Israel, only because the western nations allow themselves to be blind to the fact that arabs lie and cheat 90 percent of the time because they feel outgunned by the israelis.

And too many people fall for the trick.

[Spur_Fanatic]

I know I should not feel like this, but...

I'm dead tired of all this Middle East issues. It's always the same people. Always the same countries and states. Honestly, is there any way the entire Middle East dissapears? Israel, Iran, Irak, the palestinians...

Seriously, the world would be a much more safer place.

[Spur_Fanatic]

Also, Israel didn't just commited an act of war against Turkey by attacking a ship,
of turkish flag, in international waters? If I'm not mistaken, that's how it is.

[sook]

I know I should not feel like this, but...

I'm dead tired of all this Middle East issues. It's always the same people. Always the same countries and states. Honestly, is there any way the entire Middle East dissapears? Israel, Iran, Irak, the palestinians...

Seriously, the world would be a much more safer place.
I AGREE.

Bomb the entire fucking region. I'm tired of the Islamic fascists/israeli knuckleheads that keep detracting us from our own problems.

Sorry fuckfaces but we have enough problems on our own hands and give more importance to them than you.

I'd like to see the billions of dollars of aid going to israel right now be better used to enforce our BORDERS and security.

[Gummi Clutch]

I don't know about rigth or wrong but Israel is one stupid country if they think they can attack a ship of their closest ally in the region in international waters...


who the fuck is leading their country at the moment?

As a friend we need to pull them in and tell them they are not going to be able to pull this off forever.

[xrayzebra]

I don't know about rigth or wrong but Israel is one stupid country if they think they can attack a ship of their closest ally in the region in international waters...


who the fuck is leading their country at the moment?

As a friend we need to pull them in and tell them they are not going to be able to pull this off forever.

Who the hell do you think is leading the U.S. at this moment? Oh, never
mind, we haven't got anyone "leading". Just dictating.

[Wild Cobra]

As a friend we need to pull them in and tell them they are not going to be able to pull this off forever.
As a friend, we should take their side.

[Spur_Fanatic]

They are not that friendly, I still remember the israeli spies a few years back... Besides, in the bigger picture, if the US take Israel side, no matter-what, we'll be kinda alone (I can't think of a single country that will support Israel on this matter)

[DarrinS]

I know I should not feel like this, but...

I'm dead tired of all this Middle East issues. It's always the same people. Always the same countries and states. Honestly, is there any way the entire Middle East dissapears? Israel, Iran, Irak, the palestinians...

Seriously, the world would be a much more safer place.


Well, first of all, you shouldn't feel, you should think.

[Spur_Fanatic]

Nevertheless, it's how I feel like it. Dunno if it's the beers I had just an hour ago, but your post just made me question stupidities like "Why is this word written like this?", "That guy in the TV sounds weird", "The pink on FEEL on that guy's post kinda changes the word meaning".

No, I'm not stoned. :D

[sook]

Well, first of all, you shouldn't feel, you should think.

darrins, why has your posting gotten so much..." Better?" Everything you post now actually makes sense :wow:toast.

And i like how you put that in purple lmao

[Spur_Fanatic]

:D

Anyway, this is the normal chain of events on this cases:

Israel does something stupid.
Muslim world in disarray.
Islamic fundamentalists have a recruitment peak.
Rest of the world suffers.

Not mine, quoted from another forum.

[DarrinS]

Biden weighs in:





“They’ve said, ‘Here you go. You’re in the Mediterranean. This ship — if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we’ll get the stuff into Gaza,’”, he said. “So what’s the big deal here? What’s the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza? Well, it’s legitimate for Israel to say, ‘I don’t know what’s on that ship. These guys are dropping… 3,000 rockets on my people.

“Look, you can argue whether Israel should have dropped people onto that ship or not — but the truth of the matter is, Israel has a right to know — they’re at war with Hamas — has a right to know whether or not arms are being smuggled in.”

During the interview, Biden also blamed Hamas for the crisis that has wracked the coastal territory and for the ongoing state of conflict with Israel.

“As we put pressure, and the world put pressure on Israel to let material go into Gaza to help those people who are suffering, the ordinary Palestinians there, what happened? Hamas would confiscate it, put it in a warehouse [and] sell it.

[Spur_Fanatic]

He's right on Hamas, ofc.

But at the same time, can Israel be trusted on sending the relief to Gaza?

[Johnny RIngo]

israel is goin to start the holy war inthe middle east then come callin for eu, nato or usa for help....once the arab countries have had enough with the jews

Don't see that happening anytime soon seeing as Turkey's a NATO member.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Isn't it funny how the most adamant pro-israel take on this situation is coming from the american right-wingers?

And how they are saying how everyone else in the entire world is wrong about this situation but them?

[boutons_deux]

The people on the ship were HEAVILY armed, according to Israel spin doctors:

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/06/02/israels-propaganda-machine-produces-photos-that-imply-peace-activists-were-armed-with-pepper-spray/

[Wild Cobra]

Biden weighs in:
OMG...

I just about had my first heart attack...

He got one right!

[Winehole23]

The public rift between Israel and Turkey may be closing somewhat.
Persistent reports in the Turkish press indicate that Israel will formally apologize and pay compensation for the deaths on the Mavi Marmara.


http://trueslant.com/nealungerleider/2010/07/02/reports-israel-to-apologize-for-flotilla-raid/

[Winehole23]

^^^Turkish press reports were wrong.

However, the UN fact finding mission just released its report on the incident. It concludes that 19 year old US citizen Furcan Dogan and five others were killed execution-style by Israeli commandos, but stopped short of pressing for prosecution by the International Criminal Court..

The US dissented in the UNHRC vote, and the State Department has said "the tone and conclusions [of the report] are unbalanced."

link (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf)

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Good, they deserve to die by being unpatriotic shits and siding with those who commit terrorist acts against the US. We're better off without them.

[Winehole23]

Gazans are responsible for what terrorist acts against the US?

[Wild Cobra]

I have a hard time believing that. Where is the report link?

[Winehole23]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4652879&postcount=287

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4652879&postcount=287

OMG...

Did I miss that again like before, or did you edit and add that?

I'll chalk that up from being tired. Got off work a little over an hour ago, time to go to bed.

[Wild Cobra]

Did i miss something? What i found says this:

The circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution.
That is not a conclusion with certainty of action. If I missed something, please show me. Otherwise, I will contend that that news source you trust lied.

[Winehole23]

OMG...

Did I miss that again like before, or did you edit and add that?If I had, there'd be a footnote saying so.


I'll chalk that up from being tired. Got off work a little over an hour ago, time to go to bed.There you go. :tu

[Winehole23]

Did i miss something? What i found says this:

That is not a conclusion with certainty of action. If I missed something, please show me. Otherwise, I will contend that that news source you trust lied.I said "killed execution style"

You're splitting hairs, counselor.

[Wild Cobra]

I said "killed execution style"

You're splitting hairs, counselor.
maybe. It actually goes on to say:

Israeli forces carried out extralegal,
arbitrary and summary executions prohibited by international human rights law,
specifically article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
I guess you couldn't correct me on that.

Still, appearances are not always correct. Such shooting are also consistent with close combat and a sure kill if you are behind the criminal, if they are about to shoot or strike someone else. You go for the shot that turns them off immediately.

I have a hard time believing the testimony of a criminal group vs, the professionalism of the Israli military. If there was a bad apple among them, I'm pretty sure the others would have turned him in.

[clambake]

was there a bad apple?

why would israeli military professionalism pay compensation?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

maybe. It actually goes on to say:

I guess you couldn't correct me on that.

Still, appearances are not always correct. Such shooting are also consistent with close combat and a sure kill if you are behind the criminal, if they are about to shoot or strike someone else. You go for the shot that turns them off immediately.

I have a hard time believing the testimony of a criminal group vs, the professionalism of the Israli military. If there was a bad apple among them, I'm pretty sure the others would have turned him in.

Professionalism of Israeli military?

What exactly makes you think that the Israeli military is more professional than the US military? and there have been plenty of fuck ups by US armed forces in Iraq.

[LnGrrrR]

WC, I would think that forensics experts would be able to tell the difference between execution-style killings and those in combat. For one thing, I think it would be quite hard to get the same shot, from what I'm assuming is roughly the same angle, on six different people in the middle of combat.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I have a hard time believing the testimony of a criminal group vs, the professionalism of the Israli military. If there was a bad apple among them, I'm pretty sure the others would have turned him in.


at least you're objectivity cannot be called into question.

[MannyIsGod]

at least you're objectivity cannot be called into question.

:lol

Conformation bias like a motherfucker. Jesus.

[Wild Cobra]

WC, I would think that forensics experts would be able to tell the difference between execution-style killings and those in combat. For one thing, I think it would be quite hard to get the same shot, from what I'm assuming is roughly the same angle, on six different people in the middle of combat.
I would agree if the written material stated more details as to the angle of the bullets. Instead, it only focuses on location and powder burn distances. There is no denial that it was close combat, and I will maintain my view that the wounds can be the results of close combat, unless you can prove otherwise.

Sorry, but especially being a UN panel, I suspect bias on their part. In fact, there was a sentence that I read that implied the testimony of the soldiers couldn't be trusted, and I don't recall seeing any testimony included from them. It was all one sided I think. The only evidence I recall seeing was edited forensics information, and eye witness accounts of those who were part of breaking a legal blockade. We could call them criminals. Do you consider this a fair appraisal?

One sided testimony and incomplete forensics reported. Sorry, but this report stinks of bias.

[Wild Cobra]

Professionalism of Israeli military?

What exactly makes you think that the Israeli military is more professional than the US military? and there have been plenty of fuck ups by US armed forces in Iraq.
Sure, they could have fucked up or had bad apples. I just see that as less likely. Like I said in my last post, that UN report stings of bias.

[Wild Cobra]

at least you're objectivity cannot be called into question.


:lol

Conformation bias like a motherfucker. Jesus.
I love how you two sisters jump to conclusions of my thoughts without asking. At least LnGrrrR stays level headed. You two prove yourselves as fools.

[Winehole23]

The fact that a 19-year-old American citizen was one of the dead -- among those whom the report concluded was "summarily executed" by the Israelis -- makes the U.S. Government's silence here all the more appalling. One of the prime duties of a government is to safeguard the welfare of its own citizens. It's inconceivable for most governments in the world to remain silent in the face of formal findings that a foreign nation "summarily executed" one of its own citizens. One of the reasons Turkey was so emphatic in its condemnation of Israel was because the dead were Turkish citizens; that's what governments do when a foreign nation kills its own citizens. Yet not only does the U.S. Government sit silently, but its prior statements defending Israel were disgustingly cavalier (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/jun/02/joe-biden-israel-gaza-flotilla-raid). Virtually the entire world -- literally -- vehemently condemned Israel (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01flotilla.html) for what it did here, yet the U.S. refused and continues to refuse to do so, notwithstanding these findings that one of its own citizens was essentially murdered.http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/10/01/flotilla/index.html

[Winehole23]

Netanyahu apologizes to Turkey:


Netanyahu offered Turkey an official apology for the flotilla incident and promised compensation to the victims’ families. He said a subsequent Israeli investigation into the incident revealed “several operational errors,” according a statement released by the Israeli embassy in Washington.

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2013/03/25/how-barack-obama-brought-turkey-and-israel-back-together/#ixzz2Oa0D09zk

[boutons_deux]

the enemy of my enemy (syria) is my friend

[Winehole23]

realpolitik for sure

[DMC]

Why does Gaza need so much aid? If they cannot make it, they need to leave or die.

[Winehole23]

you do know what a blockade (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/24/us-israel-turkey-idUSBRE92N03U20130324) is, don't you?

[Wild Cobra]

Why does Gaza need so much aid? If they cannot make it, they need to leave or die.
Ouch.

I hope you don't believe that...

[ChumpDumper]

Why does Gaza need so much aid? If they cannot make it, they need to leave or die.Why does Israel need so much aid?

[BobaFett1]

Why does Israel need so much aid?

u a fool

[DMC]

Why does Israel need so much aid?

That's not an answer.

[DMC]

Ouch.

I hope you don't believe that...

No it breaks my heart of hearts to think of poor terrorists dying.

[Winehole23]

1.7 million people, all of them terrorists in your view?

[ChumpDumper]

That's not an answer.I don't see anyone answering my question either tbh.

[DMC]

I don't see anyone answering my question either tbh.

I asked first.

[DMC]

1.7 million people, all of them terrorists in your view?

Did you count them yourself?

[Wild Cobra]

LOL...


Who's going to win? Chumpo Zax or DMC Zax?

[ChumpDumper]

Why does Gaza need so much aid?They have been subject to a blockade for six years.

Why does Israel need so much aid?

[DMC]

They have been subject to a blockade for six years.

Why does Israel need so much aid?

Israel are God's chosen people. Woe be unto those who standeth against them.

[ChumpDumper]

Israel are God's chosen people. Woe be unto those who standeth against them.That's not an answer.

[Drachen]

I asked first.


you do know what a blockade (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/24/us-israel-turkey-idUSBRE92N03U20130324) is, don't you?

[DMC]

That's not an answer.

It is if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. If you haven't, well I cannot help you but I'll pray for you.

[Th'Pusher]

It is if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. If you haven't, well I cannot help you but I'll pray for you.

You're an admitted atheist. Do you only play semantic games or do you ever give a straight answer?

[Winehole23]

Did you count them yourself?No. Did you?

[DMC]

No. Did you?

I counted them out.

[DMC]

You're an admitted atheist. Do you only play semantic games or do you ever give a straight answer?

Is that multiple choice?

[Th'Pusher]

Is that multiple choice?
You're amusing, but when it comes down to nut cutting time, when you have to provide an answer that may conflict with your own ideological view, you devolve into an intellectually dishonest troll. A little disappointing tbh.

[Nbadan]

After a couple of days for careful reflection, it's clear: Barack Obama gave an amazing speech. The president of the United States stood in a hall in Jerusalem, and with empathy and with bluntness that has been absent for so long we forgot it could exist, told Israelis: The occupation can't go on. It's destroying your own future. And besides that, Palestinians have "a right to … justice" and "to be a free people in their own land."

If you don't think this is a breakthrough, you are letting naïve pessimism overcome realism. Yes, it's true that one speech will be worth nothing if not followed by intense American diplomacy. That comment has become banal. A realistic assessment is that Obama's visit, and the speech, were the opening act of an American diplomatic effort—a near perfect opening.

The first breakthrough was in method: Obama started by negotiating with the Israeli public. The choice of venue, an auditorium full of university students rather than the Knesset, was not a glitch, as many people thought beforehand. The venue was the message: The politicians have been too slow, so I'm stepping around them to talk to normal Israelis first.

snip//

Yet even the first piece of the speech wasn't quite the shmaltz it seemed to be. Obama told Israelis that he understood their fears. That was necessary before challenging the fears. But when he said in Hebrew, "You're not alone," he was not just offering support. He was directly challenging the narrative of fear on which Benjamin Netanyahu's politics are built. "Chill," Obama was saying. "It's not 1938. You are not about to be wiped off the map." And therefore, he was saying, you can consider the internal threats to Israel's future, the damage done by occupation, and you can make peace.

The most direct, powerful part of the speech was when Obama said that the Palestinians' "right to justice must also be recognized," when he told Israelis that settlement, and roadblocks, and settler violence are unjust. No American president has dared state that stark message before an Israeli audience before—or before an American one. To underline it, he borrowed the line, "to be a free people in our land," directly from the Israeli national anthem. "Palestinians," he said, "have a right to be a free people in their land." The words that define your story of yourselves, that move you even when you are tired of them and think they are kitsch, Obama suggested to Israelis, are the words that should help you empathize with Palestinians.

snip//

One speech doesn't make a peace process. But as the beginning of a process, this speech was a revolution.


Nearly half of Israel's high school students do not believe that Israeli-Arabs are entitled to the same rights as Jews in Israel, according to the results of a new survey released yesterday. The same poll revealed that more than half the students would deny Arabs the right to be elected to the Knesset.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poll-half-of-israeli-high-schoolers-oppose-equal-rights-for-arabs-1.264564

Nearly 60 percent of Jewish 12th-graders in Israel support the deportation of African refugees and almost half think their children should also be deported,

[Winehole23]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-sends-20-million-to-turkey-for-families-of-mavi-marmara-victims/

[apalisoc_9]

Disgusting..Why are these Europeans even in the middle East? They dont belong there.