Questions about the Bible...

[xXx]

Does the idea of physical slavery upset you?


no.

[redzero]

no.

Is the act of forcing one to perform manual labor a sinful act?

[clambake]

no.

you blew it

[xXx]

Is the act of forcing one to perform manual labor a sinful act?


yes.

[redzero]

yes.

Then why does the Bible instruct people on how to maintain their slaves?

[xXx]

Then why does the Bible instruct people on how to maintain their slaves?


please list the passage, I am interested to read and find out.

[redzero]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)


Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

[xXx]

I have no problem with any of those passages redzero.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Redzero: Very good point. I think what's important to consider is that slavery in biblical times was radically different from the slavery of the Americas and modern times. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, most black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. In fact, the bible specifically condemns the practice of "man stealing"--kidnapping human beings and selling them into slavery. The penalty under Mosaic law for that was death.

So yes, the Bible does condone some forms of slavery. The key, though, is understanding that slavery back in biblical times was very different (not better, just different).

[redzero]

I have no problem with any of those passages redzero.

Really? So if I had a slave and beat him, that would be find in God's eyes?


Redzero: Very good point. I think what's important to consider is that slavery in biblical times was radically different from the slavery of the Americas and modern times. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, most black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. In fact, the bible specifically condemns the practice of "man stealing"--kidnapping human beings and selling them into slavery. The penalty under Mosaic law for that was death.

So yes, the Bible does condone some forms of slavery. The key, though, is understanding that slavery back in biblical times was very different (not better, just different).

I don't care if people were enslaved because of their race or not. This kind of treatment would not fly in America. The Bible is supposed to be the word of God, so God condones something that many first world countries would find despicable.

[xXx]

Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.


:toast

[xXx]

Really? So if I had a slave and beat him, that would be find in God's eyes?



When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

[Ignignokt]

Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.


Redzero, we have it here in america. It's welfare recipients who engage in voting democrat.

[Ignignokt]

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

you're like the biggest idiot evah

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Really? So if I had a slave and beat him, that would be find in God's eyes?



I don't care if people were enslaved because of their race or not. This kind of treatment would not fly in America. The Bible is supposed to be the word of God, so God condones something that many first world countries would find despicable.

We ain't talking about America of the 21st century, man. And many of those same first world countries had no problem with slavery back in the day--it was the nature of the time. This is the same Bible that contains a passage with Christ telling people to "render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's" (i.e., pay your taxes), even though the ruler in question was unquestionably corrupt and godless. The Bible rarely calls for outright defiance of established laws. That's why God is the God he is (as Christians believe, anyway)--he gave man a free will, and the ability to conduct himself by those laws (good or bad).

[redzero]

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Where's the love in that?

[xXx]

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. :toast

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Redzero, we have it here in america. It's welfare recipients who engage in voting democrat.


:lmao Well played, Ignignokt.

[redzero]

We ain't talking about America of the 21st century, man. And many of those same first world countries had no problem with slavery back in the day--it was the nature of the time. This is the same Bible that contains a passage with Christ telling people to "render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's" (i.e., pay your taxes), even though the ruler in question was unquestionably corrupt and godless. The Bible rarely calls for outright defiance of established laws. That's why God is the God he is (as Christians believe, anyway)--he gave man a free will, and the ability to conduct himself by those laws (good or bad).

If God is supposed to be unchanging, it logically follows that his morals are unchanging, too. If slavery, indentured servitude, or whatever you want to call it was fine back then, it should be fine now.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol @ I have no problem with those passages.

[Ignignokt]

We ain't talking about America of the 21st century, man. And many of those same first world countries had no problem with slavery back in the day--it was the nature of the time. This is the same Bible that contains a passage with Christ telling people to "render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's" (i.e., pay your taxes), even though the ruler in question was unquestionably corrupt and godless. The Bible rarely calls for outright defiance of established laws. That's why God is the God he is (as Christians believe, anyway)--he gave man a free will, and the ability to conduct himself by those laws (good or bad).

"The kingdom of GOd is not of this world". I believe that was in Luke and that was the word of jesus when he was speaking to the Pharisees about the arrival of his kingdom.:toast

Bigzax, that's how you defend. Stop posting.

[MannyIsGod]

And yeah, saying your going to stop posting and then posting under troll names is the hallmark of a very weak man.

[xXx]

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. :toast

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Where's the love in that?

We aren't talking about "love." Slavery in biblical times is analogous to a business arrangement of today. Being beaten as a slave was just part of the business arrangement. God didn't come up with these laws--that's on man.

He commands, though, to "be a good steward" of your property (i.e., take care of your shit), so that wasn't a free pass to be a callous master.

[xXx]

And yeah, saying your going to stop posting and then posting under troll names is the hallmark of a very weak man.


Hi Manny. Hope you are well. :toast

[redzero]

If your child misbehaves, would you not discipline them?

So an omni-benevolent being would physically abuse somebody because that person didn't do what said being wanted them to do?

That seems like something a human would do, not an all knowing, all loving, all powerful entity.

[xXx]

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. :toast

[Ignignokt]

If God is supposed to be unchanging, it logically follows that his morals are unchanging, too. If slavery, indentured servitude, or whatever you want to call it was fine back then, it should be fine now.

what's wrong with this concept is that a God of that sort who is willing to let humans develop free will would not care to inject himself on personal matters.

I don't think God has a viewpoint on progressive taxation, states rights, abortion, the death penalty, global warming, etc.

There was a lot of stuff that was going on back then besides slavery, that doesn't mean jesus felt the need to comment on it. If he would have, the christian church would have been involved in political matters, would have been obligated to revolt and usurp the world govts from it's inception. But that didn't happen till Christianity spread and Constantine brought it to become a state institution.

[redzero]

God didn't come up with these laws--that's on man.

The passages are in the Bible, and the Bible is supposed to be God's word, so...

[Ignignokt]

If your child misbehaves, would you not discipline them?

LOL. Do you call all black people chillun?

[LoneStarState'sPride]

So an omni-benevolent being would physically abuse somebody because that person didn't do what said being wanted them to do?

That seems like something a human would do, not an all knowing, all loving, all powerful entity.

People latch on to the "all loving" aspect of God and conveniently forget His just nature. Just because He gives humans free will does NOT mean we are exempt from consequences from Him.

Shit, y'all have me sounding like a fucking preacher up in here. I hate the offseason :lol

[Ignignokt]

The passages are in the Bible, and the Bible is supposed to be God's word, so...

That doesn't mean anything there. Just because there was a reference in there doesn't mean that God approved and instituted for human application. The egyptians didn't pop out into existence once numbers and exodus was written.:lol

[Ignignokt]

Bigzax calls black men "boys".

[redzero]

People latch on to the "all loving" aspect of God and conveniently forget His just nature. Just because He gives humans free will does NOT mean we are exempt from consequences from Him.

Shit, y'all have me sounding like a fucking preacher up in here. I hate the offseason :lol

Why should an all loving being discipline someone? Should it love that person regardless?

Punishment is not an all loving an act.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

The passages are in the Bible, and the Bible is supposed to be God's word, so...

That's actually something that pisses me off. The Bible is referred to as "God's Word," but it's no secret that the words were still penned by man, and man is extremely fallable. I prefer to say the Bible was "inspired" or "ordained" by God, but anything that's been touched by humans is inherently fallable.

I believe the Bible, I trust in it's truth, but let's not elevate a book to magical status here.

[redzero]

That doesn't mean anything there. Just because there was a reference in there doesn't mean that God approved and instituted for human application. The egyptians didn't pop out into existence once numbers and exodus was written.:lol

Why is it in the Bible then if it serves no purpose?

[Ignignokt]

Why should an all loving being discipline someone? Should it love that person regardless?

Punishment is not an all loving an act.

That's impertinent.

That would only be the case if we were equals with God. But we're not. We have nothing to trade to him that is of value.

The concept of a Sovereign Eternal Creator would mean that humanity is his product and right.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Why should an all loving being discipline someone? Should it love that person regardless?

Punishment is not an all loving an act.

Ever heard of "tough love"? My parents loved me, but didn't hesitate to beat my ass when I stepped out of line as a kid. If humans are perfectly capable of punishing those they love (in love, of course), then why is it so farfetched to believe God has the same capability. We are "made in His image," after all.

[redzero]

That's actually something that pisses me off. The Bible is referred to as "God's Word," but it's no secret that the words were still penned by man, and man is extremely fallable. I prefer to say the Bible was "inspired" or "ordained" by God, but anything that's been touched by humans is inherently fallable.

I believe the Bible, I trust in it's truth, but let's not elevate a book to magical status here.

Then how do you know which part is the truth an which is what man wanted other men to do?

[Ignignokt]

Why is it in the Bible then if it serves no purpose?

Not everything in the bible is of theological importance. The donkey jesus rode in was just a donkey.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Bigzax calls black men "boys".

Hehe, I think that would get under my dad's skin more than it does me. I'm comfortable in who I am as a black man, so people can say what they want. Plus, isn't "boy" nearly a neutral term in today's vernacular? Idk :lol

[redzero]

Ever heard of "tough love"? My parents loved me, but didn't hesitate to beat my ass when I stepped out of line as a kid. If humans are perfectly capable of punishing those they love (in love, of course), then why is it so farfetched to believe God has the same capability. We are "made in His image," after all.

Human beings are not omni-benevolent.

Just like with jealousy. God is supposed to be a perfect being--a complete being. If God is complete, he should not care if man worshiped him or not. He shouldn't care if men believed in him or not. Human beings want acknowledgement. Human beings want to feel special. A perfect being doesn't need human desires.

[clambake]

yes, the men that penned the bible had quite the imagination.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Then how do you know which part is the truth an which is what man wanted other men to do?

Not that hard. Match it up against the standards of a perfect God. As far as the Bible goes, take its passages in the context of the time.

Context is temporary--truth stands the test of time.

[xXx]

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. :toast

[redzero]

Not that hard. Match it up against the standards of a perfect God. As far as the Bible goes, take its passages in the context of the time.

Context is temporary--truth stands the test of time.

A perfect God wouldn't want anything, because he is perfect. Why would he have standards?

[clambake]

A perfect God wouldn't want anything, because he is perfect. Why would he have standards?

are you kidding? he's pissy and vain.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Human beings are not omni-benevolent.

Just like with jealousy. God is supposed to be a perfect being--a complete being. If God is complete, he should not care if man worshiped him or not. He shouldn't care if men believed in him or not. Human beings want acknowledgement. Human beings want to feel special. A perfect being doesn't need human desires.

If you believe in God, you believe that He's the one who created those "human desires" in the first place. Surely you don't presume that humans created "human nature." Then again, that's an entirely different debate (i.e., the existence of God at all). But if we're playing by the rules of there being a God, then it's not hard to understand. He chose the Hebrews as part of His plan to bring salvation to the world, and as a result, commanded them to have no other gods before him. But look around--there were a myriad of other deities man worshipped during the same time period, and God allowed it to happen, did He not? He primarily focused on the Hebrews because of the aforementioned "chosen people" spiel.

[xXx]

God is supposed to be a perfect being--a complete being. If God is complete, he should not care if man worshiped him or not. He shouldn't care if men believed in him or not. Human beings want acknowledgement. Human beings want to feel special. A perfect being doesn't need human desires.



God is our Heavenly Father. A father cares for his children.

[redzero]

Not everything in the bible is of theological importance. The donkey jesus rode in was just a donkey.

But those passages are instructing the reader, are they not? It doesn't make sense for those kinds of things to be in the Bible for no reason.

In fact,


Leviticus 25 (New Living Translation)

Leviticus 25

The Sabbath Year

1 While Moses was on Mount Sinai, the Lord said to him, 2 “Give the following instructions to the people of Israel. When you have entered the land I am giving you, the land itself must observe a Sabbath rest before the Lord every seventh year. 3 For six years you may plant your fields and prune your vineyards and harvest your crops, 4 but during the seventh year the land must have a Sabbath year of complete rest. It is the Lord’s Sabbath. Do not plant your fields or prune your vineyards during that year. 5 And don’t store away the crops that grow on their own or gather the grapes from your unpruned vines. The land must have a year of complete rest. 6 But you may eat whatever the land produces on its own during its Sabbath. This applies to you, your male and female servants, your hired workers, and the temporary residents who live with you. 7 Your livestock and the wild animals in your land will also be allowed to eat what the land produces.
The Year of Jubilee

8 “In addition, you must count off seven Sabbath years, seven sets of seven years, adding up to forty-nine years in all. 9 Then on the Day of Atonement in the fiftieth year,[a] blow the ram’s horn loud and long throughout the land. 10 Set this year apart as holy, a time to proclaim freedom throughout the land for all who live there. It will be a jubilee year for you, when each of you may return to the land that belonged to your ancestors and return to your own clan. 11 This fiftieth year will be a jubilee for you. During that year you must not plant your fields or store away any of the crops that grow on their own, and don’t gather the grapes from your unpruned vines. 12 It will be a jubilee year for you, and you must keep it holy. But you may eat whatever the land produces on its own. 13 In the Year of Jubilee each of you may return to the land that belonged to your ancestors.
14 “When you make an agreement with your neighbor to buy or sell property, you must not take advantage of each other. 15 When you buy land from your neighbor, the price you pay must be based on the number of years since the last jubilee. The seller must set the price by taking into account the number of years remaining until the next Year of Jubilee. 16 The more years until the next jubilee, the higher the price; the fewer years, the lower the price. After all, the person selling the land is actually selling you a certain number of harvests. 17 Show your fear of God by not taking advantage of each other. I am the Lord your God.

18 “If you want to live securely in the land, follow my decrees and obey my regulations. 19 Then the land will yield large crops, and you will eat your fill and live securely in it. 20 But you might ask, ‘What will we eat during the seventh year, since we are not allowed to plant or harvest crops that year?’ 21 Be assured that I will send my blessing for you in the sixth year, so the land will produce a crop large enough for three years. 22 When you plant your fields in the eighth year, you will still be eating from the large crop of the sixth year. In fact, you will still be eating from that large crop when the new crop is harvested in the ninth year.

Redemption of Property

23 “The land must never be sold on a permanent basis, for the land belongs to me. You are only foreigners and tenant farmers working for me.
24 “With every purchase of land you must grant the seller the right to buy it back. 25 If one of your fellow Israelites falls into poverty and is forced to sell some family land, then a close relative should buy it back for him. 26 If there is no close relative to buy the land, but the person who sold it gets enough money to buy it back, 27 he then has the right to redeem it from the one who bought it. The price of the land will be discounted according to the number of years until the next Year of Jubilee. In this way the original owner can then return to the land. 28 But if the original owner cannot afford to buy back the land, it will remain with the new owner until the next Year of Jubilee. In the jubilee year, the land must be returned to the original owners so they can return to their family land.

29 “Anyone who sells a house inside a walled town has the right to buy it back for a full year after its sale. During that year, the seller retains the right to buy it back. 30 But if it is not bought back within a year, the sale of the house within the walled town cannot be reversed. It will become the permanent property of the buyer. It will not be returned to the original owner in the Year of Jubilee. 31 But a house in a village—a settlement without fortified walls—will be treated like property in the countryside. Such a house may be bought back at any time, and it must be returned to the original owner in the Year of Jubilee.

32 “The Levites always have the right to buy back a house they have sold within the towns allotted to them. 33 And any property that is sold by the Levites—all houses within the Levitical towns—must be returned in the Year of Jubilee. After all, the houses in the towns reserved for the Levites are the only property they own in all Israel. 34 The open pastureland around the Levitical towns may never be sold. It is their permanent possession.

Redemption of the Poor and Enslaved

35 “If one of your fellow Israelites falls into poverty and cannot support himself, support him as you would a foreigner or a temporary resident and allow him to live with you. 36 Do not charge interest or make a profit at his expense. Instead, show your fear of God by letting him live with you as your relative. 37 Remember, do not charge interest on money you lend him or make a profit on food you sell him. 38 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.
39 “If one of your fellow Israelites falls into poverty and is forced to sell himself to you, do not treat him as a slave. 40 Treat him instead as a hired worker or as a temporary resident who lives with you, and he will serve you only until the Year of Jubilee. 41 At that time he and his children will no longer be obligated to you, and they will return to their clans and go back to the land originally allotted to their ancestors. 42 The people of Israel are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt, so they must never be sold as slaves. 43 Show your fear of God by not treating them harshly.

44 “However, you may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you. 45 You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, 46 passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat them as slaves, but you must never treat your fellow Israelites this way.

47 “Suppose a foreigner or temporary resident becomes rich while living among you. If any of your fellow Israelites fall into poverty and are forced to sell themselves to such a foreigner or to a member of his family, 48 they still retain the right to be bought back, even after they have been purchased. They may be bought back by a brother, 49 an uncle, or a cousin. In fact, anyone from the extended family may buy them back. They may also redeem themselves if they have prospered. 50 They will negotiate the price of their freedom with the person who bought them. The price will be based on the number of years from the time they were sold until the next Year of Jubilee—whatever it would cost to hire a worker for that period of time. 51 If many years still remain until the jubilee, they will repay the proper proportion of what they received when they sold themselves. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they will repay a small amount for their redemption. 53 The foreigner must treat them as workers hired on a yearly basis. You must not allow a foreigner to treat any of your fellow Israelites harshly. 54 If any Israelites have not been bought back by the time the Year of Jubilee arrives, they and their children must be set free at that time. 55 For the people of Israel belong to me. They are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

God is telling Moses to give these people the listed instructions. It isn't mentioned in passing.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

A perfect God wouldn't want anything, because he is perfect. Why would he have standards?

Because he loves humans, in spite of ourselves. We are the epitome of His creation, and have dominion over this world He provided. But He also gave us free will, so we have to choose Him back. That's it, though--pretty flexible standard if you ask me :lol

[redzero]

If you believe in God, you believe that He's the one who created those "human desires" in the first place. Surely you don't presume that humans created "human nature." Then again, that's an entirely different debate (i.e., the existence of God at all). But if we're playing by the rules of there being a God, then it's not hard to understand. He chose the Hebrews as part of His plan to bring salvation to the world, and as a result, commanded them to have no other gods before him. But look around--there were a myriad of other deities man worshipped during the same time period, and God allowed it to happen, did He not? He primarily focused on the Hebrews because of the aforementioned "chosen people" spiel.

But the problem is that I can't see a perfect being creating anything in the first place. There is literally nothing a perfect being can get out of human beings. There is no love. There is no knowledge. There is nothing an imperfect being can give to a perfect being that said perfect being doesn't already have.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

But those passages are instructing the reader, are they not? It doesn't make sense for those kinds of things to be in the Bible for no reason.

In fact,



God is telling Moses to give these people the listed instructions. It isn't mentioned in passing.

Yes, because when the Hebrews left Egypt, the had no law at all. And they needed 'em, too, cuz while Moses was up on Mount Sinai, the Hebrews were acting a fool down below lol

[LoneStarState'sPride]

But the problem is that I can't see a perfect being creating anything in the first place. There is literally nothing a perfect being can get out of human beings. There is no love. There is no knowledge. There is nothing an imperfect being can give to a perfect being that said perfect being doesn't already have.

An easy answer to this is "that's why He's God, and we're not," but that's kind of a cop out, if you ask me. To me, what you just stated is what makes God's love for us so special--there is nothing we can give Him that He needs, there is no way to thank Him enough for every breath we take, and He knew this before He started creating anything, and gave us life (and His Son) anyway.

Look, I'm not gonna sit here and try to make you believe what I believe or anything--believing in God/following God/whatever you wanna call it is a personal decision. All I can do is explain what I believe is true to you to the best of my abilities, and you can take it for what it's worth.

[xXx]

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. :toast

[redzero]

Because he loves humans, in spite of ourselves. We are the epitome of His creation, and have dominion over this world He provided. But He also gave us free will, so we have to choose Him back. That's it, though--pretty flexible standard if you ask me :lol

That doesn't tell me why a perfect God would care about what we did.

[redzero]

An easy answer to this is "that's why He's God, and we're not," but that's kind of a cop out, if you ask me. To me, what you just stated is what makes God's love for us so special--there is nothing we can give Him that He needs, there is no way to thank Him enough for every breath we take, and He knew this before He started creating anything, and gave us life (and His Son) anyway.

Look, I'm not gonna sit here and try to make you believe what I believe or anything--believing in God/following God/whatever you wanna call it is a personal decision. All I can do is explain what I believe is true to you to the best of my abilities, and you can take it for what it's worth.

I used to be a Christian until I asked myself these questions. To me, it just does not make sense that a perfect being would create the universe in the first place. There is absolutely nothing he can gain out of it. There is actually no reason why he should care about what we do, and he should know what will happen anyway.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

That doesn't tell me why a perfect God would care about what we did.

That's because I told you earlier lol. You stated yourself God is "all loving." If you're looking for logic, you're not going to find any. If you've ever been in love, you know exactly what I'm talking about--love prompts us mere humans to do and say things that might not seem like they make a lick of sense. How much more from the being who created "love" in the first place?

[LoneStarState'sPride]

I used to be a Christian until I asked myself these questions. To me, it just does not make sense that a perfect being would create the universe in the first place. There is absolutely nothing he can gain out of it. There is actually no reason why he should care about what we do, and he should know what will happen anyway.

That's why God is love, man--we aren't worthy of being His creations, we definitely aren't worthy of spending eternity with Him in any way, shape, or form. Thing is, He's not in it for His own gain. It's my personal belief that He created us with a free will so we can find our way to Him and he can provide meaning for our lives, but that's purely conjecture from another messed up guy trying to figure this world out same as you are.

[xXx]

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. :toast

[Blake]

It just bugs me when people forget to use "whom," man. It's right up there with "your" instead of "you're."

I don't think so.

There is little grammatical difference between "who" and "whom" whereas "your" and "you're" are two entirely different things.

[Blake]

There is no contradiction.

yes there is.

if it's not a contradiction that God really didn't think what he made was good, then it means he is capable of change which contradicts James 1:17:

James 1:17 (New International Version)
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

[xXx]

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. :toast

[redzero]

That's why God is love, man--we aren't worthy of being His creations, we definitely aren't worthy of spending eternity with Him in any way, shape, or form. Thing is, He's not in it for His own gain. It's my personal belief that He created us with a free will so we can find our way to Him and he can provide meaning for our lives, but that's purely conjecture from another messed up guy trying to figure this world out same as you are.

That doesn't explain why God does it. For satisfaction? He already knows what's going to happen. Nothing human beings can possibly do would change the way God feels.

Christians ask themselves questions like these and throw logic out the window and say that God is just working in mysterious ways. I find the actions of a supposedly perfect being illogical and stop right there.


I don't think so.

There is little grammatical difference between "who" and "whom" whereas "your" and "you're" are two entirely different things.

I'm not talking about in terms of grammatical inaccuracy. I just hate the fact that nobody uses "whom" anymore.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

yes there is.

if it's not a contradiction that God really didn't think what he made was good, then it means he is capable of change which contradicts James 1:17:

James 1:17 (New International Version)
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

God said what He made was "good," not "perfect." Big difference. "Good" can change--God Himself does not.

[Blake]

Who said God didn't really think what he made was good?

God

[LoneStarState'sPride]

That doesn't explain why God does it. For satisfaction? He already knows what's going to happen. Nothing human beings can possibly do would change the way God feels.

Christians ask themselves questions like these and throw logic out the window and say that God is just working in mysterious ways. I find the actions of a supposedly perfect being illogical and stop right there.

I, for one, never use the "God's working in mysterious ways" line. However, just because we as humans can't comprehend something doesn't make it illogical. God (if you believe in Him) is perfect--we are not, therefore it's inherent that we're not gonna understand everything about Him (otherwise we'd all be God). You're also working from the assumption that God must gain something from creating us in order to be logical. That is somewhat presumptuous. You're attempting to make sense of the actions of a supernatural being by forcing him to abide by the standards of what we humans (His creations to begin with) deem "logical"?

There's really only two ways to believe in God--accept that we can't think and reason on the same plane as Him or presume to explain everything He does to the nth degree (in effect declaring ourselves on par with God by contending we can make logical sense of everything He does). There's no middle ground if you believe there is a God, as far as I'm concerned.

[Blake]

I'm not talking about in terms of grammatical inaccuracy. I just hate the fact that nobody uses "whom" anymore.

I hate when someone corrects me on grammar usage on a silly messageboard only to change his/her mind about why they corrected me.

[Blake]

God said what He made was "good," not "perfect." Big difference. "Good" can change--God Himself does not.

so when God said what he made was "good", he lied.......mostly to himself.

[Blake]

That's actually something that pisses me off. The Bible is referred to as "God's Word," but it's no secret that the words were still penned by man, and man is extremely fallable. I prefer to say the Bible was "inspired" or "ordained" by God, but anything that's been touched by humans is inherently fallable.

I believe the Bible, I trust in it's truth, but let's not elevate a book to magical status here.

So the Bible is inherently fallable, but you trust in it's truth.

Got it.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

So the Bible is inherently fallable, but you trust in it's truth.

Got it.

Truth is immutable, regardless of who penned it.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

so when God said what he made was "good", he lied.......mostly to himself.

Since when does "good" mean perfect? That's stating fact, not lying by any conceivable stretch of the imagination lol. What part of the planet are you from? :lol

[Blake]

Truth is immutable, regardless of who penned it.

The Bible is fallable because of who penned it, according to you.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

The Bible is fallable because of who penned it, according to you.

Dude, why you gotta get this confused? I'm gonna say it nice and slow for your benefit.

The......Bible.....is.......fallable.........becau se..........it's...........penned........by....... ..man.

but............

Truth.....(contained......in.........the........Bi ble).....is.......unchanging........regardless.... ......of.........the........author.

Meaning, even fucking Hitler could write something truthful. Just because the source is carnal doesn't invalidate the truth in the Bible.

[Blake]

Since when does "good" mean perfect? That's stating fact, not lying by any conceivable stretch of the imagination lol. What part of the planet are you from? :lol

Where did I imply that good means perfect?

What school district in Texas learned you reading comprehension?

[Blake]

Dude, why you gotta get this confused? I'm gonna say it nice and slow for your benefit.

The......Bible.....is.......fallable.........becau se..........it's...........penned........by....... ..man.

but............

Truth.....(contained......in.........the........Bi ble).....is.......unchanging........regardless.... ......of.........the........author.

Meaning, even fucking Hitler could write something truthful. Just because the source is carnal doesn't invalidate the truth in the Bible.

so if some parts of the Bible are fallible, which parts are we supposed to believe and why?

Be specific.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

so if some parts of the Bible are fallible, which parts are we supposed to believe and why?

Be specific.

The parts of the Bible that have to deal more with the cultural mores of the day (i.e., slavery and the status of women) are definitely fallible, while parts that have to deal with unyielding truth (i.e., don't kill or covet your neighbor's wife) are to be followed regardless of the timeframe in human history.

That's what I was referring to earlier about context with redzero.

[MannyIsGod]

LSSP is right. No one would ever interpret what that message from the bible is differently either. Its not like we have a ton of different Christian denominations. Nor should the message of the parts of the bible left out of the King James version be taken into account either.

Nope.

[Blake]

The parts of the Bible that have to deal more with the cultural mores of the day (i.e., slavery and the status of women) are definitely fallible, while parts that have to deal with unyielding truth (i.e., don't kill or covet your neighbor's wife) are to be followed regardless of the timeframe in human history.

That's what I was referring to earlier about context with redzero.

The magic stories involving Jesus are fallible, imo.

Why is "don't covet your neighbor's wife" something to be followed regardless of the timeframe in human history? Do you think it should be illegal to covet a neighbor's wife?

[LoneStarState'sPride]

The magic stories involving Jesus are fallible, imo.

Why is "don't covet your neighbor's wife" something to be followed regardless of the timeframe in human history? Do you think it should be illegal to covet a neighbor's wife?

That's your opinion on Jesus' miracles--I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. Believe what you want to believe.

As far as should coveting your neighbor's wife be illegal? It's not, as long as you don't act on it. According to the Bible, though, it's displeasing to God to have such thoughts.

So, to answer your question, no.

[Blake]

That's your opinion on Jesus' miracles--I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. Believe what you want to believe.

You didn't have to convince me. I already knew that the stories were penned by man and are inherently fallable.


As far as should coveting your neighbor's wife be illegal? It's not, as long as you don't act on it. According to the Bible, though, it's displeasing to God to have such thoughts.

So, to answer your question, no.

Right. It fits a moral code that was penned by man.

Whether coveting a neighbor's wife is inherently destructive to society at large or not is open for debate.

I bet I can find some unyielding truths in books like Twilight too if I really looked. Unlike some, I don't believe in Twilight either.

[redzero]

I, for one, never use the "God's working in mysterious ways" line. However, just because we as humans can't comprehend something doesn't make it illogical.

We as human beings can only go on what we find logical. If something seems illogical from a human standpoint, I see no point in giving it a pass.


God (if you believe in Him) is perfect--we are not, therefore it's inherent that we're not gonna understand everything about Him (otherwise we'd all be God).

Perfection is a tricky thing. We human being have never experienced perfection. We have never seen it in action, yet we like to give out the label. Going by the basic definition of perfection, I found God's actions illogical.


You're also working from the assumption that God must gain something from creating us in order to be logical. That is somewhat presumptuous. You're attempting to make sense of the actions of a supernatural being by forcing him to abide by the standards of what we humans (His creations to begin with) deem "logical"?


And you operate under the assumption that God thinks the way we do to some extent, do you not? You think that God wants credit for his creation. You think God wants to be praised, do you not? The Christian God is the epitome of anthropomorphism. To believe in him, one would have to go on many assumptions.


There's really only two ways to believe in God--accept that we can't think and reason on the same plane as Him or presume to explain everything He does to the nth degree (in effect declaring ourselves on par with God by contending we can make logical sense of everything He does).

I am criticizing human being's idea of God. Human beings are the ones who gave him characteristics attributed to human beings. I am trying to take them away because a perfect entity doesn't need emotions are whatever imperfect motives we have.


There's no middle ground if you believe there is a God, as far as I'm concerned.

But the thing is that Christians want to make God as human as possible, but when the inconsistencies come up, they say that it's only illogical because we as humans cannot grasp them.

When it really comes down to it, faith in God is illogical. Human beings are inclined to start religions and create deities, and I see no reason why the Christian God is the right one and the others gods are false.

[redzero]

LSSP is right. No one would ever interpret what that message from the bible is differently either. Its not like we have a ton of different Christian denominations. Nor should the message of the parts of the bible left out of the King James version be taken into account either.

Nope.

And there are the heresies and the Protestants/Lutherans who take out portions of the Bible.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Hate to be a wet blanket, y'all, but I've got plans for the evening. I'm open to continuing this discussion later, though. I can't help it--I like debates. Just PM me, aight?

Peace.

[xXx]

LSSP is right. No one would ever interpret what that message from the bible is differently either. Its not like we have a ton of different Christian denominations. Nor should the message of the parts of the bible left out of the King James version be taken into account either.

Nope.


Manny, what truth do you truly seek?

[xXx]

The Bible is the truth. Every word.

[redzero]

Manny, what truth do you truly seek?

Can you give an atheist or agnostic a reason to believe in God? Can you do it without appealing to emotions?

Just curious.

[redzero]

The Bible is the truth. Every word.

And how do you know that it's the truth?

[BacktoBasics]

23 pages and you fucktards still can't come to terms with the bible being one huge load of smelly poo. I hate you people.

[redzero]

23 pages and you fucktards still can't come to terms with the bible being one huge load of smelly poo. I hate you people.

A general consensus hasn't been reached in 2000 years, so what makes you think people on here would reach one after a few days?

[BacktoBasics]

A general consensus hasn't been reached in 2000 years, so what makes you think people on here would reach one after a few days?Nothing makes me think it. I expected to open the thread read 3 or 4 posts that reflect you morons going back and forth for 20 something pages. Call you stupid and then leave.

Its not my first time in a thread like this. Happens all the time round here. Personally I love it.

God bless.

[MannyIsGod]

Zak, I seek the truth that explains to me wtf is wrong inside your head. I'm not even sure your god knows the answer there.

[clambake]

Zak, I seek the truth that explains to me wtf is wrong inside your head. I'm not even sure your god knows the answer there.

i kinda picture him as a winter caretaker of an isolated hotel.......sitting at a typewriter.

[Blackjack]

God spelled backwards is doG.

Consider your mind :smchode:

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Redzero, we have it here in america. It's welfare recipients who engage in voting democrat.

And what do you call the receipients who vote republican? What an absurd statement.

[Bartender]

nothing worse than a drunk who finds jesus

[Ignignokt]

And what do you call the receipients who vote republican? What an absurd statement.

?? hypocrites.

Hypocrites >>>>>>>> slaves.

[mouse]

23 pages and you fucktards still can't come to terms with the bible being one huge load of smelly poo. I hate you people.

A statement like this troubles me coming from a person I have always felt was a tad more intelligent than others.

You can say what you want about God, Catholics,different religions, cults,and evil and good spirits all you want, those subjects are all fare game in making cheesy insults and are always up to debates.

But the bible is more than a book of meaningless scriptures and fairy tales. Its a recorded history that needs to be used and studied like you would use any other book that is older than 200 years. Scientist have agreed the time of the flood in the bible is dead on with their calculations of when the earth was flooded.


For example we may all disagree on how we got here and if there is a God or not but one thing we must agree on is there is a huge ball of heat and light in space called the Sun.

No matter if you believe we came from a Monkey, a creator,God, or alien beings, one thing we can't argue is the Sun.

The sun is there in your face its hot and it gives off light. Well to me a book that is older than 1000 years deserves to be taken serious no matter how absurd it looks. If you found an old joke book that is over 200 years old and it was written by George Washington you would find it to be part of history no matter if it brings anything good.

The bible may have stories that are hard to comprehend and it may be 75% lies and worthless drivel but it still contains events that took place over 1000s of years and to me that is worthy enough to not be calling it a book of poo.

It can't be any worst than a book written by Dr. Laura or Larry flint and those two have been on the top ten sellers list at one time or another.

So the next time you want to refer the bible as a book of worthless poo ask yourself what have you read lately that is really any more significant?

[Ignignokt]

nothing worse than a drunk who finds jesus

Noting worse than a bartender who enables the drunk.

[silverblk mystix]

A statement like this troubles me coming from a person I have always felt was a tad more intelligent than others.

You can say what you want about God, Catholics,different religions, cults,and evil and good spirits all you want, those subjects are all fare game in making cheesy insults and are always up to debates.

But the bible is more than a book of meaningless scriptures and fairy tales. Its a recorded history that needs to be used and studied like you would use any other book that is older than 200 years. Scientist have agreed the time of the flood in the bible is dead on with their calculations of when the earth was flooded.


For example we may all disagree on how we got here and if there is a God or not but one thing we must agree on is there is a huge ball of heat and light in space called the Sun.

No matter if you believe we came from a Monkey, a creator,God, or alien beings, one thing we can't argue is the Sun.

The sun is there in your face its hot and it gives off light. Well to me a book that is older than 1000 years deserves to be taken serious no matter how absurd it looks. If you found an old joke book that is over 200 years old and it was written by George Washington you would find it to be part of history no matter if it brings anything good.

The bible may have stories that are hard to comprehend and it may be 75% lies and worthless drivel but it still contains events that took place over 1000s of years and to me that is worthy enough to not be calling it a book of poo.

It can't be any worst than a book written by Dr. Laura or Larry flint and those two have been on the top ten sellers list at one time or another.

So the next time you want to refer the bible as a book of worthless poo ask yourself what have you read lately that is really any more significant?

Very interesting points here.

I'd like to throw in another perspective to ponder on.

If the Bible was looked upon as a history reference or as a very interesting historical artifact---and that is all, then I don't think many people would really be arguing over meanings and facts and/or perceived facts found in the bible.

But this book (and I said this on page 1) is only a book written by human beings. Human beings have agendas---like trying to control other human beings and that is what the bible was used for throughout history.

This book has been at the core of wars throughout history and has been used to justify the murders of millions throughout history also.


If the bible was taken for what it is (an excellent book with wonderful material)
and left alone-except as a nice reference book of ancient history, then it can arguably be said that the entire world would be better off.

The problem is...is that the world is run by insane human beings who have crazily elevated this book to ---THE word of god himself.

And you want to confirm how insane human beings really are?

Billions of these insane human beings have actually swallowed this fantasy and have subscribed to this lunacy and have killed and waged wars upon other human beings who , maybe, didn't want to subscribe to whatever version was being spinned at the time.

If this in not proof of insane people running this asylum, then I don't know what is.

The bible is used as a tool to control, oppress and dictate laws to millions upon millions of lives on the planet, yet the ONE thing that should have been taken and applied from the bible---is forgotten.

LOVE.

That is it. Love.

Not worship.

Not god.

Not prayer,punishment,heaven,hell.

The mystics have been saying this for centuries...yet no-one listens...no-one wants to hear the truth.

Forget worship and punishment and a supreme being---it is about love.

So, trying to convince others about scriptures and passages and punishing them when they DON'T subscribe....you lost your way---it is not love--to punish and kill.

Trying to sell heaven to others---or threaten them with hell....you lost your way---it is not love to bribe and punish....

Prayer.....bartering with some force to grant you your wishes....you lost your way....not love....


Trying to live your life by some rules that are supposed to guarantee your passage to a heaven, an eternity, a reward....you lost your way...IF you had to pass a test to be allowed into a reward like heaven---you lost your way...IF you were good for NO reason whatsoever---you were just intrinsically good---THAT might be a bit purer---and CLOSER to love ---than being good FOR A REWARD....not love....

this goes on and on...

as soon as you start talking about god----you have lost your way because NO-HUMAN-BEING has EVER -ever-EVER-ever-EVER....personally seen god...and the IDEA you have formed about god---is a barrier to seeing god---

then you have lost your way again....

this is not brain surgery...this is self-evident to anyone who is open to truth...but if you have already formed a picture of what god is...if you have already subscribe to a book which is bigger than life itself...if you are already trying to brainwash other people on things that you yourself have been brainwashed with....then you are also closed to truth...you think you already know...

again....you have lost your way....

as I said in page 1....

nothing that I have said here is untrue....you can examine it with a microscope and will not find any falseness...

but people don't want to see truth....

it is not new....

oh...and one more thing....regarding your analogy of THE SUN...

if people were to suddenly say....

THE SUN is GOD himself....and from now on we HAVE to live by these rules that were BURNED on a mountain ---BY THE SUN HIMSELF...and if you don't follow these rules to the letter---you will be punished...by these leaders we will call----SUN PRIESTS....

and your punishment will be an eternity of a place called...THE FREEZER...that's right you will freeze forever....an eternity of ICE....

wouldn't we then have the appropriate analogy of the SUN=THE BIBLE?

and wouldn't we think those people were INSANE?

[JoeChalupa]

^ Good post. I'm headed to Mass in a few minutes and as I've said many times before, I don't push my faith or beliefs on anyone and yeah, mouse will throw out the "you are supposed to preach to others" debate every time. I'm very comfortable with my faith.


and also my boring takes.

[mouse]

I'm headed to Mass in a few minutes


Translation: I must attend another cult ritual. 98% of Catholics go to Mass because they have to not because they feel the holy spirit. Ask most of them as they leave the church they will have no idea what the sermon was about. As long as a Catholic receives communion, gets to confess,or shows up on Sunday they feel good returning to a life of sin were they get to do it all over again.






and as I've said many times before, I don't push my faith or beliefs on anyone and yeah, mouse will throw out the "you are supposed to preach to others" debate every time.

Not my words just quoting the Bible, I keep forgetting Catholics have their own Bible. Your Bible would never say to preach to others the word of God.




I'm very comfortable with my faith.

Why shouldn't you be? after all Catholics get to sin all week and get forgiven every Sunday, so what if you played with your neighbors little boys wee wee say a couple of hail Mary's and your back on the list of those who will go to heaven.

That is why their are so many Catholics who wants to be a Mormon or a Jehovah's witness were you are not allowed to sin when you want and just start fresh every Sunday.

If I am not mistaken their is a verse in the bible about such people who take advantage of God's forgiveness and how they will not be allowed in heaven.

Don't forget I studied the catholic religion and went to a catholic church for three years straight. In all the three years not one person including the priest asked me If i was saved. I went to a Mormon church went to a few meetings with some Jehovah's witness's been to a free Methodist church and a baptist church, and I was asked if i was saved the first day.

I wasn't asked to eat any ceremonial cookie or to worship a statue.
I have done my homework when it comes to practicing religion so don't treat me like some God hating asshole, in fact if there is a God he is probably glad someone is telling it like it is.


Memo: the post above was not intended to purposely offend anyone it is a post made by a tax paying American on a public message board if you find it offensive report it to the webmaster immediately and then go fuck yourself.
:)

[mouse]

:corn:


















http://www.hotline.ie/cms/images/HookLineSinker.jpg

the sad part of Catholic bashing.... I lost Chris Duel and others as friends.


Stay silent and keep friends, or speak your mind and be alone?

that is the question. face it when you sleep at night its just you and your pillow. I sleep good knowing I didn't let others dictate my thoughts that's more than most can say, Including the Catholics who can't think for themselves.

[JoeChalupa]

Translation: I must attend another cult ritual. 98% of Catholics go to Mass because they have to not because they feel the holy spirit. Ask most of them as they leave the church they will have no idea what the sermon was about. As long as a Catholic receives communion, gets to confess,or shows up on Sunday they feel good returning to a life of sin were they get to do it all over again.







Not my words just quoting the Bible, I keep forgetting Catholics have their own Bible. Your Bible would never say to preach to others the word of God.





Why shouldn't you be? after all Catholics get to sin all week and get forgiven every Sunday, so what if you played with your neighbors little boys wee wee say a couple of hail Mary's and your back on the list of those who will go to heaven.

That is why their are so many Catholics who wants to be a Mormon or a Jehovah's witness were you are not allowed to sin when you want and just start fresh every Sunday.

If I am not mistaken their is a verse in the bible about such people who take advantage of God's forgiveness and how they will not be allowed in heaven.

Don't forget I studied the catholic religion and went to a catholic church for three years straight. In all the three years not one person including the priest asked me If i was saved. I went to a Mormon church went to a few meetings with some Jehovah's witness's been to a free Methodist church and a baptist church, and I was asked if i was saved the first day.

I wasn't asked to eat any ceremonial cookie or to worship a statue.
I have done my homework when it comes to practicing religion so don't treat me like some God hating asshole, in fact if there is a God he is probably glad someone is telling it like it is.


Memo: the post above was not intended to purposely offend anyone it is a post made by a tax paying American on a public message board if you find it offensive report it to the webmaster immediately and then go fuck yourself.
:)

:lmao I knew this response was coming as I've heard it from you many, many times. I get it, you dislike the Catholic faith and asking someone if they've been saved has never been, in my experience anyway, part of the "cult ritual" of attending Mass. I go to Mass because I want to and not because I feel I have to and yes I do agree that some who attend Mass can't tell you what the Homily was about because they are not listening and there are Priests who are better at it than others.
Your posts are entertaining though and less boring than mine. :tu