Petraeus: Burning Koran Puts American Lives 'in Jeopardy'

[George Gervin's Afro]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/06/petraeus-warns-churchs-koran-burning/

Petraeus: Burning Koran Puts American Lives 'in Jeopardy'



The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warned Tuesday a Florida church's threat to burn copies of the Muslim holy book could endanger U.S. troops in the country and Americans worldwide.

"Images of the burning of a Koran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan -- and around the world -- to inflame public opinion and incite violence ," Gen. David Petraeus said. "Were the actual burning to take place, the safety of our soldiers and civilians would be put in jeopardy and accomplishment of the mission would be made more difficult."

His comments followed a protest Monday by hundreds of Afghans over the plans by Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center -- a small, evangelical Christian church that espouses anti-Islam philosophy -- to burn copies of the Koran on church grounds to mark the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Petraeus warned images of burning Korans could be used to incite anti-American sentiment similar to the pictures of prisoner abuse at Iraq's Abu Graib prison.

"I am very concerned by the potential repercussions of the possible (Koran) burning. Even the rumor that it might take place has sparked demonstrations such as the one that took place in Kabul yesterday," Petraeus said



Sept. 6: Afghans burn an effigy of Dove World Outreach Center's pastor Terry Jones during a demonstration against the U.S. in Kabul.
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"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort in Afghanistan. It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems. Not just here, but everywhere in the world we are engaged with the Islamic community," he said in a statement provided to Fox News.

Though Dove World Outreach Center has been denied a permit to hold a bonfire, the Koran burning is still scheduled to proceed on Saturday. The burning -- set to mark nine years since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks -- follows a campaign last year in which the church distributed T-shirts that said "Islam is of the Devil."

In a blog on the church's website, writer Fran Ingram offered the groups’ reasoning for burning the Koran, arguing that it is not God's word and denies Jesus is the son of God, that Islam is totalitarian and that the religion teaches idolatry, paganism, rites and rituals.

"We are using this act to warn about the teaching and ideology of Islam, which we do hate as it is hateful. We do not hate any people, however. We love, as God loves, all the people in the world and we want them to come to a knowledge of the truth," the blog reads.

Other writings by the same blogger include headlines like "Islam is Cursed by Cursing Israel" and "The Koran: A Sorcerer's Scroll."

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul issued a statement condemning the church's plans, saying Washington was "deeply concerned about deliberate attempts to offend members of religious or ethnic groups."

But outside the U.S. Embassy, where as many as 500 protestors chanted "Long live Islam" and "Death to America," demonstrators argued that the church isn't acting of its own will.

"We know this is not just the decision of a church. It is the decision of the president and the entire United States," said Abdul Shakoor, an 18-year-old high school student who said he joined the protest after hearing neighborhood gossip about the Koran burning.

Burning a Koran is considered by Muslims among the most offensive actions taken against Islam. In 2005, 15 people died and scores were wounded in riots in Afghanistan sparked by a story in Newsweek magazine alleging that interrogators at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay placed copies of the Koran in washrooms and had flushed one down the toilet to get inmates to talk. Newsweek later retracted the story.

It's a shame that someone has to say this

[EmptyMan]

Hey man, freedom of expression man.


Separation of Church books and state man.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Hey man, freedom of expression man.


Separation of Church books and state man.

So then no more complaining when anyone burns a bible... (not you specifically)

[EmptyMan]

I'm just kidding. This guy is an idiot. He's going to sir up the hornets and probably get jihad'd on.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm just kidding. This guy is an idiot. He's going to sir up the hornets and probably get jihad'd on.

Of course if this was a Mosque and they were burning bibles the resident dead enders would have been in an uproar... Fox news would have done multiple news stories and sean hannity would be whoring the story...

[Yonivore]

Of course if this was a Mosque and they were burning bibles the resident dead enders would have been in an uproar... Fox news would have done multiple news stories and sean hannity would be whoring the story...
I agree with Petraus, it is a ridiculous and unnecessary provocation. But, being in and uproar and "whoring" a story over the burning of a Bible is a bit different than what Muslims usually advocate in response to desecration of their holy book.

[clambake]

i say burn all holy books..........and who ever comes running to complain gets burned with them.

[EmptyMan]

Of course if this was a Mosque and they were burning bibles the resident dead enders would have been in an uproar... Fox news would have done multiple news stories and sean hannity would be whoring the story...

Yeah, but the Christians wouldn't start beheading a bunch of people.

Say what you will about the Jesus Freaks, but at least they have evolved past the stone age.

[clambake]

Yeah, but the Christians wouldn't start beheading a bunch of people.

Say what you will about the Jesus Freaks, but at least they have evolved past the stone age.

no they haven't.

[DarrinS]

So, these people have a legal right to burn the Koran, but it would be morally wrong to do so because it would be insensitive to Muslims, right?

Hmmm. Seems oddly familiar.

[EmptyMan]

Comparatively, they have.

[Blake]

Yeah, but the Christians wouldn't start beheading a bunch of people.


If Christians started beheading people then it would be much too difficult to get money out of them.

[EmptyMan]

Exactly. :lol

[boutons_deux]

IIRC, they can't burn (anything) inside the city limits, much like in San Antonio.

But they answer to Something Above The Law (like an "Christian" asshole preacher).

[George Gervin's Afro]

So, these people have a legal right to burn the Koran, but it would be morally wrong to do so because it would be insensitive to Muslims, right?

Hmmm. Seems oddly familiar.

You're right and the same principle stands with this issue..

[TeyshaBlue]

You're right and the same principle stands with this issue..

magnified by the fact that we are in Afghanistan getting our asses shot at.

[LnGrrrR]

So, these people have a legal right to burn the Koran, but it would be morally wrong to do so because it would be insensitive to Muslims, right?

Not really. The argument is that it would be morally wrong because you would potentially be causing the unnecessary deaths of more US troops. Do you think the potential current placement of the mosque will lead to unnecessary deaths of more US troops?

[Yonivore]

Not really. The argument is that it would be morally wrong because you would potentially be causing the unnecessary deaths of more US troops. Do you think the potential current placement of the mosque will lead to unnecessary deaths of more US troops?
I think there is a fundamental error in your logic.

It's not that the building of the mosque would cause unnecessary deaths of more US troops; the more accurate analogy is that as the burning of the Koran would incense Muslim extremists to harm U. S. Troops, the building of the mosque would incense American or Christian extremists to harm Muslims.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe there may be a family member of one of the victims of 9-11 or some other individual (either due to mental illness or extreme political views) that would set out to wreak havoc at the Ground Zero mosque.

Both acts could be considered morally wrong because they prey on the imbalance of the most extreme opponents. Rights have very little to do with the argument.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I think there is a fundamental error in your logic.

It's not that the building of the mosque would cause unnecessary deaths of more US troops; the more accurate analogy is that as the burning of the Koran would incense Muslim extremists to harm U. S. Troops, the building of the mosque would incense American or Christian extremists to harm Muslims.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe there may be a family member of one of the victims of 9-11 or some other individual (either due to mental illness or extreme political views) that would set out to wreak havoc at the Ground Zero mosque.

Both acts could be considered morally wrong because they prey on the imbalance of the most extreme opponents. Rights have very little to do with the argument.

What the hell are you talking about?

Are you equating the building of a mosque to burning the koran? are you saying they have the same purpose in essence?

one is a deliberate act to insult the Muslim religion, the other is the construction of a peaceful place of worship. Its not the mosque builders fault that the paranoid in America choose to misconstrue what the mosque means. On the other hand, there is no misconstruing the meaning of burning a Koran.

What a bunch of bullshit!

[George Gervin's Afro]

What the hell are you talking about?

Are you equating the building of a mosque to burning the koran? are you saying they have the same purpose in essence?

one is a deliberate act to insult the Muslim religion, the other is the construction of a peaceful place of worship. Its not the mosque builders fault that the paranoid in America choose to misconstrue what the mosque means. On the other hand, there is no misconstruing the meaning of burning a Koran.

What a bunch of bullshit!

That's our Yoni!

[Yonivore]

What the hell are you talking about?

Are you equating the building of a mosque to burning the koran? are you saying they have the same purpose in essence?

one is a deliberate act to insult the Muslim religion, the other is the construction of a peaceful place of worship. Its not the mosque builders fault that the paranoid in America choose to misconstrue what the mosque means. On the other hand, there is no misconstruing the meaning of burning a Koran.

What a bunch of bullshit!
Not everyone believes the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a peaceful act. In fact, there are Muslims who are calling it an act of fitna -- in essence, rubbing our noses in the Muslim victory there.

But, to your point, I wasn't equating the two; I was pointing out there are extreme individuals who equate the two and, therefore, the acts could lead to similar outcomes.

Granted, there are more extreme Muslims that are unable to get their minds around the concept of a Koran being a simple book of paper and ink than there are extreme Americans that would act on the fitna provocation but, nonetheless, that is the analogy I was making.

And, you'll note, I did so to correct another person flawed logic that both would lead to harm to American soldiers.

[Blake]

Not everyone believes the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a peaceful act. In fact, there are Muslims who are calling it an act of fitna -- in essence, rubbing our noses in the Muslim victory there.

What Muslims? Where?

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe there may be a family member of one of the victims of 9-11 or some other individual (either due to mental illness or extreme political views) that would set out to wreak havoc at the Ground Zero mosque.So you're saying it's reasonable to believe that Americans will become religious terrorists.

Nice.

[Ignignokt]

So you're saying it's reasonable to believe that Americans will become religious terrorists.

Nice.

I didn't see religion in that quote.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't see religion in that quote.Why would they target the mosque?

[Yonivore]

What Muslims? Where?
I believe I linked an article earlier in this or another thread on the topic. Feel free to google.

[Yonivore]

I didn't see religion in that quote.
You're correct, you didn't.

It's reasonable to assume an American will become so incensed over the building of the mosque -- particularly if they believe it is meant to be a offense -- that they will attempt to do something in response.

However, please note, I did say it was less likely that a Muslim committing a similar act in response to a burning Koran.

[ChumpDumper]

You're correct, you didn't.

It's reasonable to assume an American will become so incensed over the building of the mosque -- particularly if they believe it is meant to be a offense -- that they will attempt to do something in response.An offense on what grounds?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Not everyone believes the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a peaceful act. In fact, there are Muslims who are calling it an act of fitna -- in essence, rubbing our noses in the Muslim victory there.

But, to your point, I wasn't equating the two; I was pointing out there are extreme individuals who equate the two and, therefore, the acts could lead to similar outcomes.

Granted, there are more extreme Muslims that are unable to get their minds around the concept of a Koran being a simple book of paper and ink than there are extreme Americans that would act on the fitna provocation but, nonetheless, that is the analogy I was making.

And, you'll note, I did so to correct another person flawed logic that both would lead to harm to American soldiers.

Is isn't even remotely related. The muslims building this particular mosque have claimed nothing about rubbing anyones nose on anything. Until they do, it doesn't matter what other Muslims claim it is, they're not the ones building it.

You can't hold Muslims in general responsible for what other people did. The building of this mosque isn't in and of itself an offensive act, at all. Unless you start assuming things for which you have no evidence what so ever. The burning of a Koran has offense as its sole purpose.

If we were to follow your logic, then maybe people should stop acting paranoid and delusional about this since it could be construed as a product of 9/11 and regarded as a victory by Muslim terrorists. After all, what better reason to feel victorious for a terrorist than seeing your enemy act unreasonably paranoid because of what you did to them?

[Blake]

I didn't see religion in that quote.

[/mosque]

[Blake]

I believe I linked an article earlier in this or another thread on the topic. Feel free to google.

Na, you don't sound 100% confident in yourself. I'd rather ask you what you mean here and now.

[Yonivore]

Is isn't even remotely related.
Your opinion and, one not shared by everyone...

Makes the rest of your post irrelevant to the argument. We obviously disagree.

[Yonivore]

Na, you don't sound 100% confident in yourself. I'd rather ask you what you mean here and now.
Lazy.

I'm 100% confident I read and posted an article about Muslims calling the building of a mosque at Ground Zero and act of fitna.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Your opinion and, one not shared by everyone...

Makes the rest of your post irrelevant to the argument. We obviously disagree.

ok, explain this to me.

Have the muslims building this mosque said anything about this being a victory for Islam against America?

Have they done anything other than express support for the victims of 9/11 and their families and even speak against terrorism, Muslim or otherwise?

[Blake]

Lazy.

Yes you are.

How hard is it to say where these Muslims are located?


I'm 100% confident I read and posted an article about Muslims calling the building of a mosque at Ground Zero and act of fitna.

link?

[Yonivore]

[/mosque]
The assertion there was no religion mentioned was in response to ChumpDumper's stupid comment about Americans becoming religious terrorists.

Try to keep up, Blake.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Is isn't even remotely related. The muslims building this particular mosque have claimed nothing about rubbing anyones nose on anything. Until they do, it doesn't matter what other Muslims claim it is, they're not the ones building it.

You can't hold Muslims in general responsible for what other people did. The building of this mosque isn't in and of itself an offensive act, at all. Unless you start assuming things for which you have no evidence what so ever. The burning of a Koran has offense as its sole purpose.

If we were to follow your logic, then maybe people should stop acting paranoid and delusional about this since it could be construed as a product of 9/11 and regarded as a victory by Muslim terrorists. After all, what better reason to feel victorious for a terrorist than seeing your enemy act unreasonably paranoid because of what you did to them?

It's very simple. The reason why most people are against the mosque being built there is because the hijackers were muslims. They feel it's insensitive because it is a Muslim place of worship.

[Yonivore]

Yes you are.

How hard is it to say where these Muslims are located?
As hard as Googling it and finding it for yourself.

I've done it once. Your turn.


link?
link (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/funny-pictures-cat-is-very-lazy.jpg)

[ChumpDumper]

The assertion there was no religion mentioned was in response to ChumpDumper's stupid comment about Americans becoming religious terrorists.

Try to keep up, Blake.Blake showed conclusively religion was indeed mentioned.

Try to keep up with your own Islamophobia, yoni.

[DarrinS]

What the hell are you talking about?

Are you equating the building of a mosque to burning the koran? are you saying they have the same purpose in essence?

one is a deliberate act to insult the Muslim religion, the other is the construction of a peaceful place of worship.


Well, that's what they claim.

[ChumpDumper]

It's very simple. The reason why most people are against the mosque being built there is because the hijackers were muslims. They feel it's insensitive because it is a Muslim place of worship.See? You didn't mention the word "religion" so it isn't about religion!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Well, that's what they claim.


do you have any proof otherwise?

[Yonivore]

ok, explain this to me.

Have the muslims building this mosque said anything about this being a victory for Islam against America?
No but, Did the Democrats tell you Obamacare was going to cost trillions?

Does anyone generally tip their hand when they're trying to pull a fast one?

Many in the Muslim world see this as a victory mosque.


Have they done anything other than express support for the victims of 9/11 and their families and even speak against terrorism, Muslim or otherwise?
Yes, called people who oppose the building hateful Islamophobes - including those who lost family members in the 9-11 attacks. Not exactly a compassionate dialogue.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, that's what they claim.What do you think it is, DarrinS?

[George Gervin's Afro]

No but, Did the Democrats tell you Obamacare was going to cost trillions?

Does anyone generally tip their hand when they're trying to pull a fast one?

Many in the Muslim world see this as a victory mosque.


Yes, called people who oppose the building hateful Islamophobes - including those who lost family members in the 9-11 attacks. Not exactly a compassionate dialogue.

So NO ONE has ever made the claim...

[ChumpDumper]

No but, Did the Democrats tell you Obamacare was going to cost trillions?Yes.


Does anyone generally tip their hand when they're trying to pull a fast one?

Many in the Muslim world see this as a victory mosque.Do you believe this is what "they" are doing in this case?

Yes or no.


Yes, called people who oppose the building hateful Islamophobes - including those who lost family members in the 9-11 attacks. Not exactly a compassionate dialogue.If there was any reason besides Islamophobia you guys could come up with, we have yet to see it.

[Yonivore]

So NO ONE has ever made the claim...
No one associated with the mosque. Not that I'm aware of, not publicly.

What's your point?

Do you think if they did, it would be easier to get the complex built?

And, let's say the builders are being honest. What if the mosque becomes a "mecca" for extremist Muslims that turn it into a "victory" mosque and an act of fitna?

As I've said before, common decency would dictate the organizers just move it somewhere else. They can't control 100% of their co-religionists and we already know there is a pretty big contingent that sees this construction as a victory mosque and act of fitna.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No but, Did the Democrats tell you Obamacare was going to cost trillions?

Does anyone generally tip their hand when they're trying to pull a fast one?

Many in the Muslim world see this as a victory mosque.

In other words, you have absolutely no evidence this mosque is what you claim it is. In fact, you just fear it could be.


Yes, called people who oppose the building hateful Islamophobes - including those who lost family members in the 9-11 attacks. Not exactly a compassionate dialogue.

Well, you know what? when people can't provide a rational explanation for why they don't want a muslim mosque there, its kind of hard to believe that it is NOT Islamophobia.

I have yet to read a reasonable explanation for peoples complaints. Sensitivity towards the family's of the victims isn't enough to curtail Muslim's right to worship, specially when these Muslims have been nothing but peaceful and for all anyone knows, have nothing to do with the extremists responsible for 9/11.

[George Gervin's Afro]

No one associated with the mosque. Not that I'm aware of, not publicly.

What's your point?

Do you think if they did, it would be easier to get the complex built?

And, let's say the builders are being honest. What if the mosque becomes a "mecca" for extremist Muslims that turn it into a "victory" mosque and an act of fitna?

As I've said before, common decency would dictate the organizers just move it somewhere else. They can't control 100% of their co-religionists and we already know there is a pretty big contingent that sees this construction as a victory mosque and act of fitna.

Common decency would give them the benefit of the doubt since none of them had anything to do with 9/11. The only relation they have to the hijackers is they share the same faith...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No one associated with the mosque. Not that I'm aware of, not publicly.

What's your point?

Do you think if they did, it would be easier to get the complex built?

And, let's say the builders are being honest. What if the mosque becomes a "mecca" for extremist Muslims that turn it into a "victory" mosque and an act of fitna?

As I've said before, common decency would dictate the organizers just move it somewhere else. They can't control 100% of their co-religionists and we already know there is a pretty big contingent that sees this construction as a victory mosque and act of fitna.

You've practically admitted you have absolutely no evidence that the intention behind this mosque is to claim some type of victory on behalf of Islam. None what so ever. In other words, you have no point other than to say they should move because you fear other muslims (who happen to be extremists) will think they won...

Do you or do you not see how ridiculous that sounds??

[Yonivore]

Common decency would give them the benefit of the doubt since none of them had anything to do with 9/11. The only relation they have to the hijackers is they share the same faith...
And, if there is a reasonable expectation their mosque will be "hijacked" by extremist co-religionists, that makes no difference?

There are hundreds of radicalized mosques in America spewing hate for this country.

What's to keep that one from becoming another?

Because, that seems to be the plan for the extremist Muslims. They see this as a Victory Mosque and I'm willing to bet it will attract such Muslims -- regardless of what the developers want.

And, I'm not convinced the developers are being above board, either. There are too many unanswered questions about how the mosque is being financed and the true ideology of this Rauf Imam dude.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You've practically admitted you have absolutely no evidence that the intention behind this mosque is to claim some type of victory on behalf of Islam. None what so ever. In other words, you have no point other than to say they should move because you fear other muslims (who happen to be extremists) will think they won...

Do you or do you not see how ridiculous that sounds??

He doesn't

[clambake]

leave religion out of it.

they were saudi's.

[ChumpDumper]

And, if there is a reasonable expectation their mosque will be "hijacked" by extremist co-religionists, that makes no difference?Only if you are an Islamophobe.


There are hundreds of radicalized mosques in America spewing hate for this country.

What's to keep that one from becoming another?Nothing, save the tolerance and cooperation Americans like to claim for themselves. This is what freedom is about. If you don't like that freedom, you need to take it away from everyone, because every place of worship has a potential for hatred.


Because, that seems to be the plan for the extremist Muslims. They see this as a Victory Mosque and I'm willing to bet it will attract such Muslims -- regardless of what the developers want.So what?


And, I'm not convinced the developers are being above board, either. There are too many unanswered questions about how the mosque is being financed and the true ideology of this Rauf Imam dude.Fox News is linked to terrorists.

[Yonivore]

You've practically admitted you have absolutely no evidence that the intention behind this mosque is to claim some type of victory on behalf of Islam. None what so ever. In other words, you have no point other than to say they should move because you fear other muslims (who happen to be extremists) will think they won...

Do you or do you not see how ridiculous that sounds??
I'm not directly involved in the project. Just like you, my opinions are based on what is said and written by others.

How many people who want to engage in an act they know will be deeply offensive to other -- in particular, their fellow countrymen -- would be honest about their intent up front?

Are you that naive?

There are people in Texas who still believe the Texas Lottery was all about education.

There are people in this country who still believe Obama's economic plan is taking us in the right direction.

If I was a radical muslim that wanted to erect a victory mosque at Ground Zero, the last thing I'd do would be to tell America before it was done.

[LnGrrrR]

Not everyone believes the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a peaceful act. In fact, there are Muslims who are calling it an act of fitna -- in essence, rubbing our noses in the Muslim victory there.

That's a poor basis to use though. If I call the act of building a church an affront to atheists everywhere, does that mean the church shouldn't be built?


Granted, there are more extreme Muslims that are unable to get their minds around the concept of a Koran being a simple book of paper and ink than there are extreme Americans that would act on the fitna provocation but, nonetheless, that is the analogy I was making.

I think the greater disparity between the two makes the analogy flawed. Not to mention that people can choose voluntarily whether or not to attend the mosque, right? People who burn the Koran are not putting their lives in danger, but those of soldiers.

[Yonivore]

He doesn't
I think that you believe there is no cause for reasonable suspicion is ridiculous.

I'm reminded of Yasser Arafat's pledges of peace when speaking to American Crowd and pledges of destruction of Israel when speaking to Palestinian crowds.

[Yonivore]

That's a poor basis to use though. If I call the act of building a church an affront to atheists everywhere, does that mean the church shouldn't be built?
If I built a church at the site where 3,000 Athiests were murdered in the name of Christianity, yes.


I think the greater disparity between the two makes the analogy flawed. Not to mention that people can choose voluntarily whether or not to attend the mosque, right? People who burn the Koran are not putting their lives in danger, but those of soldiers.
No, the analogy works if you consider the people intent on building the mosque are putting not only voluntary attendees at risk but, neighbors, and neighboring buildings.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

And, if there is a reasonable expectation their mosque will be "hijacked" by extremist co-religionists, that makes no difference?

There are hundreds of radicalized mosques in America spewing hate for this country.

What's to keep that one from becoming another?

Because, that seems to be the plan for the extremist Muslims. They see this as a Victory Mosque and I'm willing to bet it will attract such Muslims -- regardless of what the developers want.

And, I'm not convinced the developers are being above board, either. There are too many unanswered questions about how the mosque is being financed and the true ideology of this Rauf Imam dude.

Can you provide a single shred of evidence to all the bullshit you just spewed in the above post?? :rolleyes

What exactly constitutes a reasonable expectation? and where exactly are all these "thousands of radicalized mosques"?

in essence what I'm trying to ask is, how you can complain about people labeling this anti-mosque protest as Islamophobic when you yourself can't provide anything other than blind fear as the reason why you're protesting it?

Islamophobe has a negative connotation obviously, but what it essentially boils down to is having an irrational fear of muslims... from what you've posted so far, your fear of them is pretty irrational.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

If I was a radical muslim that wanted to erect a victory mosque at Ground Zero, the last thing I'd do would be to tell America before it was done.

this statement right here is the reason why people label the movement Islamophobic. Do you seriously not see why?

I'm sorry, it just boggles my mind.

[ChumpDumper]

If I built a church at the site where 3,000 Athiests were murdered in the name of Christianity, yes.So it's about religion.


No, the analogy works if you consider the people intent on building the mosque are putting not only voluntary attendees at risk but, neighbors, and neighboring buildings.Who is going to attack the strip club?

[Yonivore]

Can you provide a single shred of evidence to all the bullshit you just spewed in the above post?? :rolleyes

What exactly constitutes a reasonable expectation? and where exactly are all these "thousands of radicalized mosques"?
I said hundreds and Washington State, Detroit, and New Jersey are home to more than their share.


in essence what I'm trying to ask is, how you can complain about people labeling this anti-mosque protest as Islamophobic when you yourself can't provide anything other than blind fear as the reason why you're protesting it?

Islamophobe has a negative connotation obviously, but what it essentially boils down to is having an irrational fear of muslims... from what you've posted so far, your fear of them is pretty irrational.
Read up on the Dar al-Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church. Just one of the hundreds of radicalized mosques in the United States.

[ChumpDumper]

I said hundreds and Washington State, Detroit, and New Jersey are home to more than their share.


Read up on the Dar al-Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church. Just one of the hundreds of radicalized mosques in the United States.Show me a list of the hundreds.

It's your claim. Back it up.

[Yonivore]

this statement right here is the reason why people label the movement Islamophobic. Do you seriously not see why?

I'm sorry, it just boggles my mind.
Why? Are you saying they'd be up front and honest if that was their intention? I think it's a reasonable suspicion...particularly given what we're learning about Rauf and the financing of the mosque.

[ChumpDumper]

Why? Are you saying they'd be up front and honest if that was their intention? I think it's a reasonable suspicion...particularly given what we're learning about Rauf and the financing of the mosque.Fox News is linked to terrorism.

[LnGrrrR]

If I built a church at the site where 3,000 Athiests were murdered in the name of Christianity, yes.

So the only thing that matters is how many people are offended? IOW, if enough people are offended, then it's not moral, but if only a few people are offended, it is? What if a few anonymous atheists say that they will bomb a building if it is built? Should that church not be built then? If all you're talking about is the possible "safety" of a bldg, then numbers shouldn't make a big difference.


No, the analogy works if you consider the people intent on building the mosque are putting not only voluntary attendees at risk but, neighbors, and neighboring buildings.

Using this sort of thought, then numerous amounts of buildings couldn't be built, because they might POSSIBLY piss someone off. Abortion clinics? Can't build them, because people bomb them. Bars? Can't build them, they offend some people and someone might want to take them out. Etc etc. What about banks? People rob banks, and hold people hostage, therefore we should not allow banks to be built, as they are inherently unsafe. :lol

Look, the whole act of building a structure and book burning are two distinct acts; drawing an analogy between them fails for the most part, because they are dissimilar.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Why? Are you saying they'd be up front and honest if that was their intention? I think it's a reasonable suspicion...particularly given what we're learning about Rauf and the financing of the mosque.

I don't. I think its a convenient excuse though. Mainly because your suspicions are baseless. Show me the evidence behind your suspicions. Evidence on this mosque and on the Muslim's building it.

Notice I'm not asking you to speak for anyone else. I'm talking about YOUR suspicions.

[Yonivore]

I don't. I think its a convenient excuse though. Mainly because your suspicions are baseless. Show me the evidence behind your suspicions. Evidence on this mosque and on the Muslim's building it.

Notice I'm not asking you to speak for anyone else. I'm talking about YOUR suspicions.
My opposition to the mosque is not based on what I believe the organizers are intending there.

My opposition is based in compassion and solidarity with those who lost loved one on 9-11 that are opposed to the mosque. Initially, I believed the organizer would accede to the pleas of those who couldn't understand why a mosque would be built there but, when they started calling 9-11 victims hateful Islamophobes, I began to question their motives.

Then when you throw in Iranian, Palestian, and Syrian support for the building of the mosque -- without the organizers rejecting that support, I think it's reasonable to assume their motives are less than honorable.

Some Muslim sheik testified before a Senate committee back in 1999 that more than 80% of American mosques were influenced by or under the control of radical Muslims. I'm looking for the testimony now...

I've found plenty of stories recounting his testimony but, until I actually read the testimony in the Congressional Record, I won't claim it's true. It just happens to agree with my assertion that hundred of mosques are radicalized.

[ChumpDumper]

My opposition is based solely in Islamophobia.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

My opposition to the mosque is not based on what I believe the organizers are intending there.

My opposition is based in compassion and solidarity with those who lost loved one on 9-11 that are opposed to the mosque. Initially, I believed the organizer would accede to the pleas of those who couldn't understand why a mosque would be built there but, when they started calling 9-11 victims hateful Islamophobes, I began to question their motives.

Then when you throw in Iranian, Palestian, and Syrian support for the building of the mosque -- without the organizers rejecting that support, I think it's reasonable to assume their motives are less than honorable.

Some Muslim sheik testified before a Senate committee back in 1999 that more than 80% of American mosques were influenced by or under the control of radical Muslims. I'm looking for the testimony now...

I've found plenty of stories recounting his testimony but, until I actually read the testimony in the Congressional Record, I won't claim it's true. It just happens to agree with my assertion that hundred of mosques are radicalized.

You can't possibly expect that what essentially amounts to a hunch on your part, be considered the evidence everyone here is asking for...

Is that you think the people defending the building of this mosque are oblivious to the existence of radical muslims? that they'd support the building of a mosque where muslims are radicalized against America?

What people defending the mosque argue is that unless you have concrete proof that this mosque is intended to do what you claim it is, you cannot, and more importantly must not, let your fears make you do something that is completely uncharacteristic of what America is all about... or at least claims to be all about.

[Blake]

Initially, I believed the organizer would accede to the pleas of those who couldn't understand why a mosque would be built there but, when they started calling 9-11 victims hateful Islamophobes, I began to question their motives.


In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

[LnGrrrR]

In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

How far away is Afghanistan? :lol

[Yonivore]

You can't possibly expect that what essentially amounts to a hunch on your part, be considered the evidence everyone here is asking for...

Is that you think the people defending the building of this mosque are oblivious to the existence of radical muslims? that they'd support the building of a mosque where muslims are radicalized against America?

What people defending the mosque argue is that unless you have concrete proof that this mosque is intended to do what you claim it is, you cannot, and more importantly must not, let your fears make you do something that is completely uncharacteristic of what America is all about... or at least claims to be all about.
On the Islamophobic meme. If it was fear that drove opposition, don't you believe there'd be a call to close all mosques, everywhere? A radicalized mosque at Ground Zero is no less dangerous than one in Seattle.

That's not the issue but, supporters have done a grand job of making it so.

It's not Islamophobia.

[Yonivore]

In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.
Ask a victim of 9-11.

[clambake]

In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

well, it couldn't be any farther away from nearest mosque. there's about a hundred of them.

[ChumpDumper]

You can't possibly expect that what essentially amounts to a hunch on your part, be considered the evidence everyone here is asking for...Hey, we invaded and occupied a Muslim country, killing tens of thousands of them on a hunch.

Why should this be any different? When it comes to Muslims, going with your gut trumps the principals on which this country was founded.

[ChumpDumper]

Ask a victim of 9-11.Which one?

Several of them approve of the mosque's construction.

[Blake]

Ask a victim of 9-11.

Define victim.

I'm American. I feel like we were all victims.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

On the Islamophobic meme. If it was fear that drove opposition, don't you believe there'd be a call to close all mosques, everywhere? A radicalized mosque at Ground Zero is no less dangerous than one in Seattle.

That's not the issue but, supporters have done a grand job of making it so.

It's not Islamophobia.

that's a cop out. Most people realize they can't demand mosques be shut down everywhere in America. Islamophobia doesn't mean stupidity.

Obviously, this sensitivity schtick provides a great excuse for people to act on their fear of the muslim culture, and until people protesting can bring some kind of rational explanation for their demands, it will continue to look like fear is the motive behind them.

[Yonivore]

that's a cop out. Most people realize they can't demand mosques be shut down everywhere in America. Islamophobia doesn't mean stupidity.

Obviously, this sensitivity schtick provides a great excuse for people to act on their fear of the muslim culture, and until people protesting can bring some kind of rational explanation for their demands, it will continue to look like fear is the motive behind them.
Schtick?

You accuse the victim's families of engaging in schtick?

If it were fear, the Ground Zero mosque wouldn't be the only target of opposition. You'd see opposition to the building of a new mosque anywhere and protests against existing mosques believed to be radicalized.

[Yonivore]

Define victim.

I'm American. I feel like we were all victims.
And, as of this week 70% believe the mosque shouldn't be built.

That's more of a consensus than Algore had on Global War...er, Climate Change.

[Blake]

And, as of this week 70% believe the mosque shouldn't be built.




In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

[clambake]

so what yoni. like chump said, look what happened the last time a knuckledragger acted on his gut.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Schtick?

You accuse the victim's families of engaging in schtick?

I'm not talking about the victim's families. I'm talking about every other stone faced hypocrite using their ordeal to further an agenda of their own.


If it were fear, the Ground Zero mosque wouldn't be the only target of opposition. You'd see opposition to the building of a new mosque anywhere and protests against existing mosques believed to be radicalized.

I already answered this.

[Yonivore]

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.

[Yonivore]

I'm not talking about the victim's families. I'm talking about every other stone faced hypocrite using their ordeal to further an agenda of their own.
Do the victim's families have a legitimate argument?


I already answered this.
It wasn't a question.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.

Completely and utterly ridiculous statement

[ChumpDumper]

Schtick?

You accuse the victim's families of engaging in schtick?

If it were fear, the Ground Zero mosque wouldn't be the only target of opposition. You'd see opposition to the building of a new mosque anywhere and protests against existing mosques believed to be radicalized.Google "Tennessee mosque" and get back to me.

[ChumpDumper]

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.What about those who lost loved ones and want the mosque to be built near ground zero?

Where is your compassion for and solidarity with them?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Do the victim's families have a legitimate argument?

No, they don't, but I do think they are being sincere, although misguided, about their grievance, unlike most of the people involved in this. The people responsible for the Mosque seem to have nothing to do with the people responsible for 9/11. So the victim's families grievances are directed at the wrong people.



It wasn't a question.Fine, I already talked about this. Happy?

[DarrinS]

Does anyone else think it's insulting to Muslims to insinuate that a large number of them will go batshit crazy and go on marauding, murderous rampages if a book is burned?

Likewise, isn't thinking that a Muslim will snap and have a phychotic episode because they've seen their invisible god in cartoon form equally insulting?

Why do you guys think all Muslims are batshit crazy religious zealots?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Why do you guys think all Muslims are batshit crazy religious zealots?

go ahead and show me who's been saying this? or even insinuating this.

it really is laughable that you think this bullshit is helping you make a point, specially since you've been insinuating this very thing since the beginning.

[Blake]

Why do you guys think all Muslims are batshit crazy religious zealots?

I don't. Why do you?

[ChumpDumper]

Does anyone else think it's insulting to Muslims to insinuate that a large number of them will go batshit crazy and go on marauding, murderous rampages if a book is burned?

Likewise, isn't thinking that a Muslim will snap and have a phychotic episode because they've seen their invisible god in cartoon form equally insulting?

Why do you guys think all Muslims are batshit crazy religious zealots?What do you think they will do, DarrinS?

[jack sommerset]

I say burn the Koran and ask those who are upset to be more tolerant.

[Yonivore]

I don't. Why do you?
Because they go batshit over burned Korans and images of Mohammed?

[Blake]

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.

are all those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero united in their determination of how far away is far enough?

I wasn't aware.....

Do they have a Yahoo Groups account? I'd like to get in on it.

[DarrinS]

go ahead and show me who's been saying this? or even insinuating this.

it really is laughable that you think this bullshit is helping you make a point, specially since you've been insinuating this very thing since the beginning.


But, you guys seem to think Muslims have only a precarious grip on reality and will suddently SNAP the moment they see a cartoon of <name redacted, PBUH>. That's very insulting. Muslims are very rational people.

[DarrinS]

What do you think they will do, DarrinS?


Why would this endanger our troops?

[Blake]

Because they go batshit over burned Korans and images of Mohammed?

Really, that's what they all do?

link?

[ChumpDumper]

Why would this endanger our troops?What do you think they will do, DarrinS?

[DarrinS]

If their daughters get raped, they want to kill their daughters.

Rational.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I say burn the Koran and ask those who are upset to be more tolerant.

The point of the statement was to point out a fact. Muslim extremists are more likely to react violently towards American troops if they see American's burning Korans. That doesn't mean Petraeous wants people to be more sensitive towards Muslim extremists, it means exactly what he said.

Are you going to sit there and claim is erroneous?

Regardless, do you usually hold yourself and Americans in the same light as extremists?

I seriously can't get it through my head how you think you're making a rational argument when you post shit like this.

[Yonivore]

Really, that's what they all do?
Enough of them do that many countries have passed laws prohibiting such so that Muslims won't get pissed and trash their countries.

[Yonivore]

The point of the statement was to point out a fact. Muslim extremists are more likely to react violently towards American troops if they see American's burning Korans. That doesn't mean Petraeous wants people to be more sensitive towards Muslim extremists, it means exactly what he said.

Are you going to sit there and claim is erroneous?

Regardless, do you usually hold yourself and Americans in the same light as extremists?

I seriously can't get it through my head how you think you're making a rational argument when you post shit like this.
So, who has the tolerance issue here?

[ChumpDumper]

If their daughters get raped, they want to kill their daughters.

Rational.


What do you think they will do, DarrinS?

[ChumpDumper]

So, who has the tolerance issue here?You.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

If their daughters get raped, they want to kill their daughters.

Rational.

In other words, this isn't about sensitivity or political correctness, you just don't approve of the muslim religion, right?

You keep outing yourself again and again. How in the hell do you still think you have any credibility left?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

So, who has the tolerance issue here?

Oh that's brilliant. Are you being serious??

I don't tolerate extremists, of any kind. I think they are scum. Come back when you have proof the builders of this mosque are extremists.

[Yonivore]

Oh that's brilliant. Are you being serious??

I don't tolerate extremists, of any kind. I think they are scum. Come back when you have proof the builders of this mosque are extremists.
Why? You'd still rationalize it somehow.

[Blake]

Enough of them do that many countries have passed laws prohibiting such so that Muslims won't get pissed and trash their countries.

All Muslims?

[ChumpDumper]

Why? You'd still rationalize it somehow.Well, you are still prejudiced against it for no rational reason.

[DarrinS]

If I witnessed a burning Bible or saw a cartoon of Jesus, I wouldn't feel the need to go on a murder spree.

Why do people think Muslims would do this?

[jack sommerset]

If I witnessed a burning Bible or saw a cartoon of Jesus, I wouldn't feel the need to go on a murder spree.

Why do people think Muslims would do this?

They are batshit crazy!

[Yonivore]

All Muslims?
Nope but, enough.

[ChumpDumper]

If I witnessed a burning Bible or saw a cartoon of Jesus, I wouldn't feel the need to go on a murder spree.

Why do people think Muslims would do this?What do you think they will do, DarrinS?

[Yonivore]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iLAadFk300g/TFoB6gwhLGI/AAAAAAAADNM/2ta9lLxgbPY/s1600/time.jpg
The face of the peaceful religion of Islam...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Why? You'd still rationalize it somehow.

Try me. or is it that you can't? and that's why you make a asinine arguments like this one



So, who has the tolerance issue here?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

If I witnessed a burning Bible or saw a cartoon of Jesus, I wouldn't feel the need to go on a murder spree.

Why do people think Muslims would do this?

why do YOU think all of them would do it?

[DarrinS]

What do you think they will do, DarrinS?



What would I base my opinion on? History? Experience?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iLAadFk300g/TFoB6gwhLGI/AAAAAAAADNM/2ta9lLxgbPY/s1600/time.jpg
The face of the peaceful religion of Islam...

yeah, you're not an Islamophobe... at all.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

What would I base my opinion on? History? Experience?

so far? prejudice, it seems

[DarrinS]

yeah, you're not an Islamophobe... at all.

I bet the girl on that cover is.

[ChumpDumper]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iLAadFk300g/TFoB6gwhLGI/AAAAAAAADNM/2ta9lLxgbPY/s1600/time.jpg
The face of the peaceful religion of Islam...http://www.currybet.net/images/articles/2008/olympic_dissent/1996_time-cover.jpg

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I bet the girl on that cover is.

You saying all Muslims are responsible for what happened to her?

[DarrinS]

so far? prejudice, it seems


Is Petraeus basing his opinion on prejudice?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Is Petraeus basing his opinion on prejudice?

Petraeus is talking about extremists. Are you?

What ARE you talking about DarrinS? its never quite clear enough. Pretty convenient when you need to dodge the shit out of relevant questions, huh?

[ChumpDumper]

What would I base my opinion on? History? Experience?What do you think they will do, DarrinS?

[DarrinS]

Petraeus is talking about extremists. Are you?

What ARE you talking about DarrinS?


Who are the extremists and what makes them extreme?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Who are the extremists and what makes them extreme?

Well if you don't know, what the fuck have you been going on about for all these years?

Do you regularly talk about things you don't know?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

See, two can play at that game

[Yonivore]

You saying all Muslims are responsible for what happened to her?
Yes. Those that don't engaged in Sharia practices such as honor killings, stonings, and disfigurements, tolerate it.

They sure as hell aren't speaking out against their co-religionists.

I know, it's because they're Islamophobes like the woman on the cover of that magazine...

The peaceful Muslims are the battered wives of Islam. That's the only explanation. Well, that or, they agree with the practices and just don't have the stomach to engage in it themselves.

[ChumpDumper]

I am afraid of all Muslims.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Yes. Those that don't engaged in Sharia practices such as honor killings, stonings, and disfigurements, tolerate it.

They sure as hell aren't speaking out against their co-religionists.

I know, it's because they're Islamophobes like the woman on the cover of that magazine...

The peaceful Muslims are the battered wives of Islam. That's the only explanation. Well, that or, they agree with the practices and just don't have the stomach to engage in it themselves.

like I told DarrinS, it seems the sensitivity angle just went out the window huh?

Take a wild guess as to why people label people like you Islamophobic.

Glad to see where you're coming from! :tu

Next thing you'll be claiming is defenders of the mosque are advocates of Sharia law...

[Yonivore]

like I told DarrinS, it seems the sensitivity angle just went out the window huh?

Take a wild guess as to why people label people like you Islamophobic.

Glad to see where you're coming from! :tu

Next thing you'll be claiming is defenders of the mosque are advocates of Sharia law...
No, my defense of why I oppose the mosque at Ground Zero remains the same. You guys are the ones that took the conversation to the wider question of how radicalized are American Muslims.

But, I see you're out of arguments.

[ChumpDumper]

No, my defense of why I oppose the mosque at Ground Zero remains the same. You guys are the ones that took the conversation to the wider question of how radicalized are American Muslims.

But, I see you're out of arguments.Why do you not stand with the victims who approve of the mosque?

[Nash2TimeMVp]

why is yonivore using the word fitna in teh wrong context? fitna means test or tribulation, not an act of thumbing their noses. it also has different levels of use, i.e. fitna at not commiting fornication or fitna as in times of warfare, economic or spiritual distress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(word)

and also i don't think building a mosque is hateful or offensive in the same way that burning the one book that 2 billion people swear by and would take a bullet for is. I don't know about other people, but taht's just me.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No, my defense of why I oppose the mosque at Ground Zero remains the same. You guys are the ones that took the conversation to the wider question of how radicalized are American Muslims.

But, I see you're out of arguments.

seeing as though you've still to rationally address any of the ones I've made in this thread, that shouldn't really prove to be a problem, right?

and I didn't take the conversation anywhere, I asked you simple questions. I asked for clear answers, evidence, anything that would help me understand why you think the way you think.

Your answer boiled down to posting a picture of the muslim girl and a rant about how peace loving you think Muslims are not.

What conclusion do you think people are going to reach?

[DarrinS]

like I told DarrinS, it seems the sensitivity angle just went out the window huh?

Take a wild guess as to why people label people like you Islamophobic.

Glad to see where you're coming from! :tu

Next thing you'll be claiming is defenders of the mosque are advocates of Sharia law...

Shariah Index Project

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/shariah-index-project

[Nash2TimeMVp]

so i guess manumaniac, chump, and 10 other people in this thread are advocates of sharia law.

your logic is worse than a trolls and your thoughts/opnions just suck man. lol pistons

[LnGrrrR]

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.

Hm... I didn't think conservatives played the victim card.

[EmptyMan]

The mind=blowing thing is all of this drama is over what are probably nothing more than fairy tales LOL

[boutons_deux]

"people in this thread are advocates of sharia law"

You Lie.

[TheSullyMonster]

Alla y'all who think that christianity is perfect and doesn't have their own problems with extremists are lacking a bit of perspective. :lol

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=christian+witch+hunts+in+africa

[Wild Cobra]

The radicals may use it for an excuse, but you know what...

that's all it is. An excuse. they will probably carry out something anyway.

I think it's un-Christian for these so-called Christian to burn the Koran, but I don't see where it makes any difference.

[TheSullyMonster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w03tJ3IkrM&feature=player_embedded#

[Winehole23]

I think it's un-Christian for these so-called Christian to burn the Koran, but I don't see where it makes any difference.Gen. Petraeus does. He thinks it may endanger US soldiers in theatre. But what does he know?

[CosmicCowboy]

This preacher is a fucking idiot. Embarrassing.

[Wild Cobra]

Gen. Petraeus does. He thinks it may endanger US soldiers in theatre. But what does he know?
Yes, I know. I think he's wrong. They may use it as an excuse to act on current plans anyway, but I think they would act without.

[Wild Cobra]

This preacher is a fucking idiot. Embarrassing.
Yes, he is.

On my drive home from work yesterday, I heard Lars Larson interviewing someone about this. He was adamant that the bible has verses saying to do so, and quoted them. Lars shot back pointing out that the passages he quoted referred to ones own personal belongings when they came to, or back to Christianity. Not to buy and destroy items in protest.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Yes, I know. I think he's wrong. They may use it as an excuse to act on current plans anyway, but I think they would act without.

I think I actually agree on that. I guess it comes down to not giving them the opportunity to excuse their bullshit violence with things like this.

EDIT: Not that anything would excuse their violence, but in their twisted minds it might

[LnGrrrR]

Yes, I know. I think he's wrong. They may use it as an excuse to act on current plans anyway, but I think they would act without.

I think Petraeus is not concerned that this will further inflame current terrorists, but convince those who might be "on the fence" about siding with them.

[Wild Cobra]

I think Petraeus is not concerned that this will further inflame current terrorists, but convince those who might be "on the fence" about siding with them.
Consider this.

Even if he's right, they should be easier to spot and eliminate...

[LnGrrrR]

Consider this.

Even if he's right, they should be easier to spot and eliminate...

Eh, I think he'd rather less terrorists than more that are easier to spot/eliminate. It's not like they're wearing uniforms :D

[Wild Cobra]

Eh, I think he'd rather less terrorists than more that are easier to spot/eliminate. It's not like they're wearing uniforms :D
Any idea what their numbers are now? My understanding is they are thought to be an endangered species. What if 1/2 of them attempted something and were all killed, causing little or no intended casualties. Would the remaining possibly give up, and quietly disappear?

[LnGrrrR]

Any idea what their numbers are now? My understanding is they are thought to be an endangered species. What if 1/2 of them attempted something and were all killed, causing little or no intended casualties. Would the remaining possibly give up, and quietly disappear?

Well, it's obviously hard to gauge true numbers. Even harder than that is gauging those who don't perform terrorist activities, but enable them through the use of passing information, supplies, etc etc.

Your dream scenario is probably just that, I'm afraid. I would love to have a scenario where all the terrorists grouped together somewhere, without civilians, and we knew about and blew them to bits. I don't think it will happen; there's a reason why terrorists use isolated cells after all.

I really don't know what convinces terrorists to give up... that's actually an interesting line of questioning. I'll have to try to do some googling to see who's already done research on that. Curious to see what tactics might be successful in "deconverting" a terrorist (for lack of a better word).

[Stringer_Bell]

I can't believe the bullshit in this thread...

1) The "Christian" Pastor is a pussy, and if he wanted to be a man he'd go to the Middle East and burn Koran's on Muslim land.

2) The media is a fucking joke, bringing world wide attention to what would otherwise be a random youtube video of angry white people burning books and creating an atmosphere that gives lots of exposure to OUR country's biggest fucking idiots. If they weren't talking about it or giving it legitmacy, it wouldn't be something that endangers the troops.

3) Yes, this will impact troops because the terrorists will use the media's high-quality video and interviews with the "Christians" burning the Koran to recruit new terrorists that believe the West is totally intolerant to them and the only way to protect Islam is to destroy the West.

4) Combined with the Mosque outrage, it's not unreasonable to assume that the various fake hidden, mysterious terror networks like Al-Q will actually have members now and meet their yearly recruiting numbers.

[DarrinS]

I can't believe the bullshit in this thread...

1) The "Christian" Pastor is a pussy, and if he wanted to be a man he'd go to the Middle East and burn Koran's on Muslim land.

2) The media is a fucking joke, bringing world wide attention to what would otherwise be a random youtube video of angry white people burning books and creating an atmosphere that gives lots of exposure to OUR country's biggest fucking idiots. If they weren't talking about it or giving it legitmacy, it wouldn't be something that endangers the troops.

3) Yes, this will impact troops because the terrorists will use the media's high-quality video and interviews with the "Christians" burning the Koran to recruit new terrorists that believe the West is totally intolerant to them and the only way to protect Islam is to destroy the West.

4) Combined with the Mosque outrage, it's not unreasonable to assume that the various fake hidden, mysterious terror networks like Al-Q will actually have members now and meet their yearly recruiting numbers.



I agree with most of this, but I don't think Al Qaeda is fake.

[boutons_deux]

"OLBERMANN: And so, today, Countdown asked several Republican politicians if they now, as they have in the past, urged Americans to listen to General Petraeus and support what he needs to win the hearts and minds of an Islamic country. … [We received] total silence today."

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/09/08/why-wont-top-republicans-denounce-the-hate-pastor-set-to-burn-korans/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet#

=============

For Repug Propaganda Network and Repugs won't condemn the Koran burning because, like their fabricated "mosk" controversy, they foment hate, fear, xenophobia among their racist, bubba, red-state dumbfucks, who fall for the propaganda every time.

[Stringer_Bell]

I agree with most of this, but I don't think Al Qaeda is fake.

Perhaps "fake" is too strong a word, but there's something fishy about Al-Q being a "franchised" network when there's less than 100 people in the core of it (in Pakistan) and unable to find any competant members. It's a blessing for us because their plots never go through as planned and always get fucked up, but they don't strike me as people that are hell-bent on making life in the US fearful...they suck at what they are trying to do, and now I feel like they will have reruitment materials to find people devious and hateful enough to really mess with us. :(

[Wild Cobra]

Well, it's obviously hard to gauge true numbers. Even harder than that is gauging those who don't perform terrorist activities, but enable them through the use of passing information, supplies, etc etc.

Your dream scenario is probably just that, I'm afraid. I would love to have a scenario where all the terrorists grouped together somewhere, without civilians, and we knew about and blew them to bits. I don't think it will happen; there's a reason why terrorists use isolated cells after all.

I really don't know what convinces terrorists to give up... that's actually an interesting line of questioning. I'll have to try to do some googling to see who's already done research on that. Curious to see what tactics might be successful in "deconverting" a terrorist (for lack of a better word).
Well, we all must have our dreams, else part of life is incomplete.

Yes... it is a wild fantasy, but at least i didn't say "all."

I have to keep the "Wild" in Cobra alive...

[CosmicCowboy]

"OLBERMANN: And so, today, Countdown asked several Republican politicians if they now, as they have in the past, urged Americans to listen to General Petraeus and support what he needs to win the hearts and minds of an Islamic country. … [We received] total silence today."

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/09/08/why-wont-top-republicans-denounce-the-hate-pastor-set-to-burn-korans/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet#

=============

For Repug Propaganda Network and Repugs won't condemn the Koran burning because, like their fabricated "mosk" controversy, they foment hate, fear, xenophobia among their racist, bubba, red-state dumbfucks, who fall for the propaganda every time.

FYI, I was in and out of my truck today and both Rush and Hannity are against the Koran burning.

[4>0rings]

Burn that fucker. I hope this country never becomes a muslim sympathizer. Look how Europe and France turned out...

[Yonivore]

I saw the Olbermann quote and immediately thought two things...

What a fucking liar. And, where was he when military leaders were saying the same thing about the media whoring of Abu Ghraib?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I saw the Olbermann quote and immediately thought two things...

What a fucking liar. And, where was he when military leaders were saying the same thing about the media whoring of Abu Ghraib?

which Republican leaders have spoken out today?

[CosmicCowboy]

I saw the Olbermann quote and immediately thought two things...

What a fucking liar. And, where was he when military leaders were saying the same thing about the media whoring of Abu Ghraib?

Anyone could see that "gotcha" question coming...if they would have said "sure we support Petraeus" Bumbleman would have pricked out some obscure but outrageous thing Petraeus suggested and said "so you support this?"

[Yonivore]

which Republican leaders have spoken out today?
Which ones did he ask?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Which ones did he ask?

I didn't realize they had to be asked... how unpatriotic they are..

[Yonivore]

I didn't realize they had to be asked... how unpatriotic they are..
You misunderstand. It goes to my liar allegation. I'm just now getting access to media today, I have no idea what anyone has said on the issue since last night.

He claims he asked several; who were they? He's never been shy about naming 'em before.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You misunderstand. It goes to my liar allegation. I'm just now getting access to media today, I have no idea what anyone has said on the issue since last night.

He claims he asked several' who were they? He's never been shy about naming 'em before.


I misread his comments. If he's lying he's an idiot for doing so...

[Yonivore]

I misread his comments. If he's lying he's an idiot for doing so...
He's an idiot, but that didn't start today.

Again, where was this deference to military commanders during the Bush administration?

[LnGrrrR]

Well, we all must have our dreams, else part of life is incomplete.

Yes... it is a wild fantasy, but at least i didn't say "all."

I have to keep the "Wild" in Cobra alive...

:tu

Trust me, as a member of the Armed Forces, I would love a scenario where terrorists think they can take us on openly, or gather without fear of reprisal. Sadly, I think they're too smart for that.

That's why we're transitioning our military to a quasi-police force... what country would declare wars on us openly?

[jack sommerset]

He's an idiot, but that didn't start today.

Again, where was this deference to military commanders during the Bush administration?

I want to know why the Code Pink ho's stop protesting the wars!

[Yonivore]

which Republican leaders have spoken out today?
For your consideration:

Koran Burning Is Insensitive, Unnecessary; Pastor Jones, Please Stand Down
(http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/notes/sarah-palin/koran-burning-is-insensitive-unnecessary-pastor-jones-please-stand-down/427813493434)

[LnGrrrR]

FYI, I was in and out of my truck today and both Rush and Hannity are against the Koran burning.

:tu

I support their right to do it; I also think they're jackasses.

[Wild Cobra]

I can't believe the bullshit in this thread...

1) The "Christian" Pastor is a pussy, and if he wanted to be a man he'd go to the Middle East and burn Koran's on Muslim land.

Probably air have another beheading on Al Jazeera.


2) The media is a fucking joke, bringing world wide attention to what would otherwise be a random youtube video of angry white people burning books and creating an atmosphere that gives lots of exposure to OUR country's biggest fucking idiots. If they weren't talking about it or giving it legitmacy, it wouldn't be something that endangers the troops.

Sensationalism sells. We all best remember that the truth and important news doesn't make much money.


3) Yes, this will impact troops because the terrorists will use the media's high-quality video and interviews with the "Christians" burning the Koran to recruit new terrorists that believe the West is totally intolerant to them and the only way to protect Islam is to destroy the West.

It may recruit a few more, but we are talking about a small number. Consider that the radicals are likely under 0.05% of the population, they are still a large number. There are at least 1.2 billion Muslims. 0.05% of that would be 600,000. Of that, if 1% were willing to make Jihad, that's 6,000. we still have a long way to go as exterminators, but I just don't see this controversy really inciting enough more to matter.57 Muslim states.


4) Combined with the Mosque outrage, it's not unreasonable to assume that the various fake hidden, mysterious terror networks like Al-Q will actually have members now and meet their yearly recruiting numbers.

It seems to me that their numbers are constantly dwindling more than the damage they cause, and I'll bet recruitment lags losses by multitudes. maybe I'm wrong, but I am optimistic that this problem will continue to decline.

[Crookshanks]

Sean Hannity actually interviewed this nutcase preacher on his show today - and Sean tried very, very hard to convince the guy that what he was doing was an unneccesary provocation and that he should cancel the Koran burning.

[Yonivore]

You know, the real story here that no one is talking about is how a publicity stunt by a nobody preacher can so incense a pretty large chunk of the world's population they're willing to strap on suicide vests and murder others.

The Dove Outreach Center is a 50 person church. How in the fuck is that even significant?

The real story is how the world is cowed by Islamic extremists to the point they'll hyperventilate over a nobody preacher at a nowhere church. Ridiculous.

[Wild Cobra]

You know, the real story here that no one is talking about is how a publicity stunt by a nobody preacher can so incense a pretty large chunk of the world's population they're willing to strap on suicide vests and murder others.

The Dove Outreach Center is a 50 person church. How in the fuck is that even significant?

The real story is how the world is cowed by Islamic extremists to the point they'll hyperventilate over a nobody preacher at a nowhere church. Ridiculous.
It sensationalism. It sells news. I thought you understood that real journalism is dead.

[LnGrrrR]

It seems to me that their numbers are constantly dwindling more than the damage they cause, and I'll bet recruitment lags losses by multitudes. maybe I'm wrong, but I am optimistic that this problem will continue to decline.

Maybe that's why they're producing online 'zines...

[Wild Cobra]

Maybe that's why they're producing online 'zines...
Fisher noted that the magazine contained an article by Abu Mu'sab al-Suri, noting that al-Suri had been in Guantanamo since 2005, and that whether he was actually tied to al Qaeda remained unclear.
Did you read my post on that?

I suspect it's a hoax.

[LnGrrrR]

Did you read my post on that?

I suspect it's a hoax.

Nope, it's been confirmed by various intelligence sources. I doubt I would have gotten an email about it if it was a hoax. :)

[Wild Cobra]

Nope, it's been confirmed by various intelligence sources. I doubt I would have gotten an email about it if it was a hoax. :)
Well, maybe it's real. Still, i think there is more to the story than as assumed. I can speculate about many scenarios, but choose not to share any.

[boutons_deux]

Terry Jones is all about Terry Jones, duh.

Quran-Burning Pastor's Former German Church Denounces Him: He's 'Violent And Fanatical'

"He wasn't the kind of pastor who did everything and took care of everyone," said Breuel.

Baar added: "He didn't project the biblical values and Christianity, but always made himself the center of everything."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/08/quranburning-pastors-form_n_709878.html?view=print

==========

Yoni, just like your ignorant, venal, celebrity grrrl friend Mama Grizzly, Jones is all about Jones. Has NOTHING to do with the world being cowed by Islam.

[PublicOption]

people in the islamic world who pull out a bible usually get arrested or killed. so what is the problem again?

[Winehole23]

The Islamic world. How facile.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/

US Military burned bibles...

(CNN) -- Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.

The unsolicited Bibles sent by a church in the United States were confiscated about a year ago at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan because military rules forbid troops of any religion from proselytizing while deployed there, Lt. Col. Mark Wright said.

Such religious outreach can endanger American troops and civilians in the devoutly Muslim nation, Wright said.

"The decision was made that it was a 'force protection' measure to throw them away, because, if they did get out, it could be perceived by Afghans that the U.S. government or the U.S. military was trying to convert Muslims," Wright told CNN on Tuesday.

Troops at posts in war zones are required to burn their trash, Wright said.

The Bibles were written in the languages Pashto and Dari.

This decision came to light recently, after the Al Jazeera English network aired video of a group prayer service and chapel sermon that a reporter said suggested U.S. troops were being encouraged to spread Christianity.

The military denied that earlier this month, saying much in the video was taken out of context.

"This was irresponsible and dangerous journalism sensationalizing year-old footage of a religious service for U.S. soldiers on a U.S. base and inferring that troops are evangelizing to Afghans," Col. Gregory Julian said.

The military says a soldier at Bagram received the Bibles and didn't realize he wasn't allowed to hand them out. In the Al Jazeera video, which shows the Bibles at the prayer service, an unnamed soldier says members of his church raised money for them.

The chaplain later corrected the soldier and confiscated the Bibles, Wright said.

Military officers considered sending the Bibles back to the church, he said, but they worried the church would turn around and send them to another organization in Afghanistan -- giving the impression that they had been distributed by the U.S. government.

That could lead to violence against troops or U.S. civilians, Wright said.



Al Jazeera English, a Qatar-based international news service, said its reporters tried to get a response from military officials for its story but were unable to do so.

The U.S. military air base at Bagram is home to thousands of troops from all branches of the U.S. military. The vast majority of the troops do not leave the base and are in various support roles for U.S. troops across Afghanistan.

[George Gervin's Afro]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/

US Military burned bibles...

(CNN) -- Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.

The unsolicited Bibles sent by a church in the United States were confiscated about a year ago at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan because military rules forbid troops of any religion from proselytizing while deployed there, Lt. Col. Mark Wright said.

Such religious outreach can endanger American troops and civilians in the devoutly Muslim nation, Wright said.

"The decision was made that it was a 'force protection' measure to throw them away, because, if they did get out, it could be perceived by Afghans that the U.S. government or the U.S. military was trying to convert Muslims," Wright told CNN on Tuesday.

Troops at posts in war zones are required to burn their trash, Wright said.

The Bibles were written in the languages Pashto and Dari.

This decision came to light recently, after the Al Jazeera English network aired video of a group prayer service and chapel sermon that a reporter said suggested U.S. troops were being encouraged to spread Christianity.

The military denied that earlier this month, saying much in the video was taken out of context.

"This was irresponsible and dangerous journalism sensationalizing year-old footage of a religious service for U.S. soldiers on a U.S. base and inferring that troops are evangelizing to Afghans," Col. Gregory Julian said.

The military says a soldier at Bagram received the Bibles and didn't realize he wasn't allowed to hand them out. In the Al Jazeera video, which shows the Bibles at the prayer service, an unnamed soldier says members of his church raised money for them.

The chaplain later corrected the soldier and confiscated the Bibles, Wright said.

Military officers considered sending the Bibles back to the church, he said, but they worried the church would turn around and send them to another organization in Afghanistan -- giving the impression that they had been distributed by the U.S. government.

That could lead to violence against troops or U.S. civilians, Wright said.



Al Jazeera English, a Qatar-based international news service, said its reporters tried to get a response from military officials for its story but were unable to do so.

The U.S. military air base at Bagram is home to thousands of troops from all branches of the U.S. military. The vast majority of the troops do not leave the base and are in various support roles for U.S. troops across Afghanistan.

so.......

[FromWayDowntown]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/

US Military burned bibles...



While I think all of this is reaching silly levels, this story is akin to a report that al Queda sympathizers burned the Koran en masse.

[boutons_deux]

Another ignorant red-state "Christian" hater follows suit

Inspired By Florida Hate Pastor, Tennessee Minister Also Plans To Burn Qurans On 9/11

The longtime Baptist minister says the Rev. Terry Jones of the Dove World Center Outreach in Gainesville, Fla., is doing the right thing by burning the Quran. So he’s going to do likewise.

Old plans to set fire to a Quran on Saturday at his home and then post a video of the burning book online. And if he had his way, there would be no Muslims in America.

“If they want to have their religion, they can have it somewhere else,” said Old, former pastor of First Baptist Church in Joelton and Academy Heights Baptist Church in Gallatin, which merged with another church. He no longer has a congregation and instead runs an evangelical ministry called Disciples of Christ.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/09/09/tennessee-burn-quran/

[George Gervin's Afro]

Another ignorant red-state "Christian" hater follows suit

Inspired By Florida Hate Pastor, Tennessee Minister Also Plans To Burn Qurans On 9/11

The longtime Baptist minister says the Rev. Terry Jones of the Dove World Center Outreach in Gainesville, Fla., is doing the right thing by burning the Quran. So he’s going to do likewise.

Old plans to set fire to a Quran on Saturday at his home and then post a video of the burning book online. And if he had his way, there would be no Muslims in America.

“If they want to have their religion, they can have it somewhere else,” said Old, former pastor of First Baptist Church in Joelton and Academy Heights Baptist Church in Gallatin, which merged with another church. He no longer has a congregation and instead runs an evangelical ministry called Disciples of Christ.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/09/09/tennessee-burn-quran/


I wonder if this guy is a fan of obama?

[CosmicCowboy]

Too bad the media won't just ignore these morons.

[boutons_deux]

The US runs on morons pimped by the media, esp Fox and VRWC.

Repugs, tea baggers, conservatives, gun fetishists, and other morons are pimped non-stop.

[ChumpDumper]

He no longer has a congregation and instead runs an evangelical ministry called Disciples of Christ.I smell a lawsuit over the use of that name.

[ChumpDumper]

US Military burned bibles...What's your point?

[CosmicCowboy]

What's your point?

It's somewhat related news. I just posted it. I figured all the brilliant minds in here would hash out the point.

[ChumpDumper]

It's somewhat related news. I just posted it. I figured all the brilliant minds in here would hash out the point.The point that Christians appear to be trying to fuck with the US military effort in the middle east in every way possible?

Point taken.

[elbamba]

Yawn. A congregation of 50 people in Gainsville, FL is making the headlines. There really must not be much going on in the world right now.

[jack sommerset]

"Islam means peace." Let the preacher boy burn it.

[Marcus Bryant]

This is a retarded "issue." If this nut hadn't gotten the pub in the first place nobody would care.

Hey, the country's going bankrupt.

[DarrinS]

This is a retarded "issue." If this nut hadn't gotten the pub in the first place nobody would care.

Hey, the country's going bankrupt.



Isn't it strange how the story of this nutbag is an international incident, eliciting comments from the POTUS, a four-star general, the attorney general, a former POTUS, an former VP candidate, and the Pope, and causing INTERPOL to issue a global alert?

In contrast, Piss Christ was a winner of the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art's "Awards in the Visual Arts" competition and the "artist" received $15,000 for his work, part of it from taxpayer funds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

[cheguevara]

I agree this just proves the USA media is fucking retarded.

So a random retard just says I will burn the Koran, and the news media take this from a local nonissue to a world stage.

If I didn't have such a great life and money, I would plan to publicly burn the Koran too and notify the media. Just so I can have a microphone and then say "Psych! you fucking media are a bunch of retards"

[Winehole23]

The stink about Piss Christ in 1987 was similarly grotesque.

[DarrinS]

I agree this just proves the USA media is fucking retarded.

So a random retard just says I will burn the Koran, and the news media take this from a local nonissue to a world stage.


agree

[DarrinS]

The stink about Piss Christ in 1987 was similarly grotesque.


Meh, not nearly.

[Winehole23]

It made enough of an impression for you to bring it up 23 years later.

[DarrinS]

It made enough of an impression for you to bring it up 23 years later.

Yes, I remember it, but I don't remember POTUS weighing in, or the Vatican, or a General, etc. etc.

[Winehole23]

You can't remember shit. Can't say I'm much surprised.

[MannyIsGod]

^:lol

[DarrinS]

^:lol

MannyIsGod -- master of Smilies.

[jack sommerset]

Praise allah! The preacher boy isn't going to burn the Qurans!

[MannyIsGod]

MannyIsGod -- master of Smilies.

Would you prefer a youtube?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Praise allah! The preacher boy isn't going to burn the Qurans!

I wish he'd burn you.. I'd pay to see that.

[Galileo]

KSM Conspiracy Charges Analyzed and Debunked
Don’t believe the charges until you’ve read the charge sheet
http://www.truthjihad.com/ksm.htm