Democrats to voters: You may hate us, but GOP is worse

[ducks]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_desperate_democrats

[Jacob1983]

Pathetic but kinda funny. Are Republicans the Nazis and Democrats are the Russians?

[baseline bum]

The media is full of crap. What the hell was revolutionary about the health bill the Democrats passed? They just scaled our completely broken health system up. A public option or Medicare for all would have been a revolutionary package. Not more subsidies to private insurance.

[CosmicCowboy]

So, I'll ask the same question I asked in another thread that nobody wanted to answer...

What is a reasonable profit for a health care insurance company? 10%?

[George Gervin's Afro]

So, I'll ask the same question I asked in another thread that nobody wanted to answer...

What is a reasonable profit for a health care insurance company? 10%?

how much is saving a life worth?

[CosmicCowboy]

how much is saving a life worth?

Just answer the question. You hate the evil money hungry insurance companies. What is a reasonable profit for them to make?

[fyatuk]

So, I'll ask the same question I asked in another thread that nobody wanted to answer...

What is a reasonable profit for a health care insurance company? 10%?

When insurance is compulsory, zero.

[CosmicCowboy]

When insurance is compulsory, zero.

Compulsory insurance is a joke. The $700/year "fine" was just the camels nose under the tent of single payer. That doesn't cover two months premium for a relatively healthy individual.

[Nbadan]

When people's health gets placed below a companies profit margin, I have a problem with it...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Just answer the question. You hate the evil money hungry insurance companies. What is a reasonable profit for them to make?

how much is a life worth? If the question is, how many corners, treatments, drug costs can insurance companies cut in order to make a buck? It's hard to say

[CosmicCowboy]

Will one of you insurance company haters please answer the very simple question? What is a reasonable profit? 10%?

[George Gervin's Afro]

how much is a life worth? If the question is, how many corners, treatments, drug costs can insurance companies cut in order to make a buck? It's hard to say

[CosmicCowboy]

You guys blame everything related to health care costs on the "greedy insurance companies"...so define greed...is 10% profit for an insurance company greedy?

[George Gervin's Afro]

You guys blame everything related to health care costs on the "greedy insurance companies"...so define greed...is 10% profit for an insurance company greedy?

greed is denying coverage of someone sick because it would hurt the bottom line. greed is capping costs and denying people life saving treatment. greed is denying claims in the hopes of people just giving up..

[CosmicCowboy]

The system may be broken but you guys have taken the bait hook line and sinker when Obama and crew demonized the insurance companies...

Remember, a health care insurance company takes one monthly check from you or your employer and then negotiates rates with doctors, pharmacies, hospitals, surgeons, lab providers, surgery centers etc. and disburses the money to pay for your health maintenance. They hire tens of thousands of people to administer this task. What is a reasonable profit for them to make to take the risk of offering a flat monthly rate to cover these expenses?

[CosmicCowboy]

What a bunch of fucking pussies. Put a damn number down instead of just reading from your socialized medicine script. Whats a fair profit percentage?

[Spurminator]

I'm okay with a company making 70% profits as long as there are reasonable alternatives for people who can't afford such coverage or have pre-existing conditions. Which is why a public option was probably the best way to reform HC if reform was needed.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm okay with a company making 70% profits as long as there are reasonable alternatives for people who can't afford such coverage or have pre-existing conditions. Which is why a public option was probably the best way to reform HC if reform was needed.

You have a lot more faith in our Federal Government than I do. I have NEVER seen them administer ANYTHING cheaper than can be done in the private sector.

As for a reasonable alternative for those that can't afford private insurance...

Why is that the responsibility of the Health Insurance Companies?

The average after-tax profit of the big three Health Care companies bounces around year to year from around 2% to 8% and probably averages around 6%. Check it out if you don't believe me.

On the other hand, Google has an annual profit percentage approaching 30%

Why isn't it Google's responsibility to pay for those peoples health insurance?

How has it come to pass that the Insurance companies are the only ones demonized?

The simple fact is Health care is just too damn good and extremely expensive.

[Nbadan]

Remember, a health care insurance company takes one monthly check from you or your employer and then negotiates rates with doctors, pharmacies, hospitals, surgeons, lab providers, surgery centers etc. and disburses the money to pay for your health maintenance. They hire tens of thousands of people to administer this task. What is a reasonable profit for them to make to take the risk of offering a flat monthly rate to cover these expenses?

The insurance companies take $1000/month for a family of 4 or more...and costs keep rising per year above and beyond the rate of inflation and salary increases...that in my opinion is corporate robbery...

[CosmicCowboy]

The insurance companies take $1000/month for a family of 4 or more...and costs keep rising per year above and beyond the rate of inflation and salary increases...that in my opinion is corporate robbery...

Really? The numbers don't lie. That money comes in and it goes right back out to pay for benefits.

I know Humana lost their ASS on my company last year. I paid about $95,000 in premiums for employee/family and had a surge of huge claims...one guy had a heart attack and 5 bypasses, one guys wife got stomach cancer and fought it to the bitter end, another guy had to have major surgery on the head/neck region...I estimate they paid out $250,000 in claims for that $95,000 in premiums I paid...

[CosmicCowboy]

In the example I gave 2 out of 3 were "cured". The third they spent a huge amount of money "extending life" even though she was clearly terminal.

30 years ago there weren't the expensive life extending drugs/treatments available and they all three would have died relatively "cheaply".

THATS why health insurance is so expensive now.

[Nbadan]

Really? The numbers don't lie. That money comes in and it goes right back out to pay for benefits.

I know Humana lost their ASS on my company last year. I paid about $95,000 in premiums for employee/family and had a surge of huge claims...one guy had a heart attack and 5 bypasses, one guys wife got stomach cancer and fought it to the bitter end, another guy had to have major surgery on the head/neck region...I estimate they paid out $250,000 in claims for that $95,000 in premiums I paid...

Duh! Insurance companies are charged exorbitant costs because health-care providers must make up money they lose from people with no health-care coverage....and they pay.....the public option would have created a big pool of payers and been able to cover the cost for those who do need care

[ChumpDumper]

I know Humana lost their ASS on my company last year.But Humana made a profit overall?

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah buddy. Trust the government to take care of your medical needs.

The VA has done SUCH a great job...

[CosmicCowboy]

But Humana made a profit overall?

Around 5% last year. 2.8% the year before. Greedy bastard!

[Nbadan]

Yeah buddy. Trust the government to take care of your medical needs.

The VA has done SUCH a great job...

...so much so that given the choice between private health-care and VA care most veteran still choose VA care...as do career politicians...

[ChumpDumper]

Have they ever lost money?

[CosmicCowboy]

The simple fact is that no matter how you approach it health care is going to be rationed in some way. There is no alternative.

[MannyIsGod]

Compulsory insurance is a joke. The $700/year "fine" was just the camels nose under the tent of single payer. That doesn't cover two months premium for a relatively healthy individual.

Uh, yes, it does. 700 a year should cover almost half a year for most healthy individuals who are even just early 30s and younger.

[ChumpDumper]

The simple fact is that no matter how you approach it health care is going to be rationed in some way. There is no alternative.It already is.

[Nbadan]

Other countries have found viable solutions that control costs and don't bankrupt people who are responsible, plus they provide better coverage...we can do better..

[MannyIsGod]

You have a lot more faith in our Federal Government than I do. I have NEVER seen them administer ANYTHING cheaper than can be done in the private sector.

As for a reasonable alternative for those that can't afford private insurance...

Why is that the responsibility of the Health Insurance Companies?

The average after-tax profit of the big three Health Care companies bounces around year to year from around 2% to 8% and probably averages around 6%. Check it out if you don't believe me.

On the other hand, Google has an annual profit percentage approaching 30%

Why isn't it Google's responsibility to pay for those peoples health insurance?

How has it come to pass that the Insurance companies are the only ones demonized?

The simple fact is Health care is just too damn good and extremely expensive.

Medicare.

[MannyIsGod]

Really? The numbers don't lie. That money comes in and it goes right back out to pay for benefits.

I know Humana lost their ASS on my company last year. I paid about $95,000 in premiums for employee/family and had a surge of huge claims...one guy had a heart attack and 5 bypasses, one guys wife got stomach cancer and fought it to the bitter end, another guy had to have major surgery on the head/neck region...I estimate they paid out $250,000 in claims for that $95,000 in premiums I paid...

I don't think you understand how Insurance companies pay their claims. I seriously doubt they paid anywhere near 250,00 in claims.

[CosmicCowboy]

Uh, yes, it does. 700 a year should cover almost half a year for most healthy individuals who are even just early 30s and younger.

The premium I pay for an individual in my group is $370. I shop it hard.

Granted, my groups average age is over 30.

Still, you accept that the "fine" is cheaper than buying insurance.

If an individual is GUARANTEED coverage if they pay the fine, what do you think rational individuals will do?

[CosmicCowboy]

It already is.

No shit Sherlock.

The people that pay for insurance get coverage. The ones that don't go to University Hospital and our property taxes pay for it.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't think you understand how Insurance companies pay their claims. I seriously doubt they paid anywhere near 250,00 in claims.

Thanks, but I have an extremely good grasp of loss ratios.

[MannyIsGod]

As for what is an acceptable profit, I don't know. I think Spurm hit the nail on the head, however. Let people choose between medicare for all and private insurance and lets see how well they do. If public insurance is terrible then the market would dictate that most people would still spend their money on private insurance but I think we both know that wouldn't happen.

[CosmicCowboy]

As for what is an acceptable profit, I don't know. I think Spurm hit the nail on the head, however. Let people choose between medicare for all and private insurance and lets see how well they do. If public insurance is terrible then the market would dictate that most people would still spend their money on private insurance but I think we both know that wouldn't happen.

You are right Manny for the wrong reasons. It's just human nature to think "it won't happen to me". Thus, insurance seems totally frivolous and unnecessary until it DOES happen to you.

[MannyIsGod]

The premium I pay for an individual in my group is $370. I shop it hard.

Granted, my groups average age is over 30.

Still, you accept that the "fine" is cheaper than buying insurance.

If an individual is GUARANTEED coverage if they pay the fine, what do you think rational individuals will do?

You can do shopping and find individual plans for well under 370 a month. I'm not sure if you have unhealthy people in your group who are driving the average price up but I'd imagine that is the case. (or you have some serious coverage - obviously higher levels of coverage drive up the price)

Yes, the fine is cheaper than buying insurance but you also don't get coverage with the fine so as a whole its wasted money when for 1200-1500 a year an individual who is my age can definitely get coverage.

I let my insurance license lapse something like 7 years ago but at one time I was a licensed agent in Texas and I sold health and life insurance for several years (actually to a lot of people like you CC - my company targeted farmers and ranchers).

[MannyIsGod]

Thanks, but I have an extremely good grasp of loss ratios.

The medical bills better have been in excess of 1 million for them to pay 250,000 in claims.

[CosmicCowboy]

You can do shopping and find individual plans for well under 370 a month. I'm not sure if you have unhealthy people in your group who are driving the average price up but I'd imagine that is the case. (or you have some serious coverage - obviously higher levels of coverage drive up the price)

Yes, the fine is cheaper than buying insurance but you also don't get coverage with the fine so as a whole its wasted money when for 1200-1500 a year an individual who is my age can definitely get coverage.

I let my insurance license lapse something like 7 years ago but at one time I was a licensed agent in Texas and I sold health and life insurance for several years (actually to a lot of people like you CC - my company targeted farmers and ranchers).

When insurance companies are required to cover pre-existing conditions from previously uninsured people that paid the fine they are essentially buying insurance for $700 a year.

Setting the bar that low was intentional. They know that rational young people won't buy insurance and it will destroy the insurance companies financially because they will lose the lower risk premiums.

My point still stands...why force the insurance companies to subsidize the uninsured? Why not just say Google that makes a 30% profit has to subsidize the uninsured?

[CosmicCowboy]

The medical bills better have been in excess of 1 million for them to pay 250,000 in claims.

Manny, they are public companies and their financials are a matter of public record. It still boils down to income/expenses.

[ElNono]

What is a reasonable profit for a health care insurance company? 10%?

I would rather not have to deal with them in the first place, which would make whatever their profits are irrelevant. I would have loved to see a mixed system, with a baseline package provided by the government and, optionally, if you wanted better/different service, then you could go to the private sector.

The comparison with Google is really silly too. First of all, it costs me zero to use Google. Second, Google doesn't get subsidized with my tax money. And lastly, Google isn't an insurance company with direct impact on a person's health.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, they are public companies and their financials are a matter of public record. It still boils down to income/expenses.

What does this even mean? I'm simply pointing out that insurance companies do not pay what medical bills face value in the least. I currently work at a medical practice where various insurance companies pay maybe 1/3 of our standard rates (others pay more) and our rates are actually low compared to the average in the region.

When you say they paid out 250,000 in claims, then I'd have to believe for that to be true your medical bills were well in excess of 1 million because what they are billed and what they pay are two completely separate things.

[ElNono]

What does this even mean? I'm simply pointing out that insurance companies do not pay what medical bills face value in the least. I currently work at a medical practice where various insurance companies pay maybe 1/3 of our standard rates (others pay more) and our rates are actually low compared to the average in the region.

When you say they paid out 250,000 in claims, then I'd have to believe for that to be true your medical bills were well in excess of 1 million because what they are billed and what they pay are two completely separate things.

Agreed. Which is a practice that ultimately raises the price for everyone else, because doctors now bill for 3 times as much seeing that they're only going to get paid 1/3 of the actual cost.

[DarrinS]

It's better to have watered-down, shitty health care for ALL, rather than quality based on what you can afford.

That's just how liberals think.

It's not fair that some people are rich and others poor.

[MannyIsGod]

Agreed. Which is a practice that ultimately raises the price for everyone else, because doctors now bill for 3 times as much seeing that they're only going to get paid 1/3 of the actual cost.

Exactly. This is the main reason why our prices are so out of whack when compared to the rest of the world (among other factors but this is the primary reason by far).

Honestly if your'e paying for a bill out of pocket you can negotiate it down relatively quickly and easily in the same manner that insurance companies do (sometimes even better - medical practices love cash) but many people don't know this.

[DarrinS]

Honestly if your'e paying for a bill out of pocket you can negotiate it down relatively quickly and easily in the same manner that insurance companies do (sometimes even better - medical practices love cash) but many people don't know this.



That's very "free market" of you, Manny.

[ElNono]

It's better to have watered-down, shitty health care for ALL, rather than quality based on what you can afford.

That's just how liberals think.

It's not fair that some people are rich and others poor.

If that's what you really think, then why are you so opposed to have the 'watered-down, shitty healthcare' compete against the 'quality' healthcare?

Wouldn't the quality healthcare win out?

[CosmicCowboy]

I would rather not have to deal with them in the first place, which would make whatever their profits are irrelevant. I would have loved to see a mixed system, with a baseline package provided by the government and, optionally, if you wanted better/different service, then you could go to the private sector.

The comparison with Google is really silly too. First of all, it costs me zero to use Google. Second, Google doesn't get subsidized with my tax money. And lastly, Google isn't an insurance company with direct impact on a person's health.

I intentionally made the comparison with Google silly. But it boils down to your assumptions of the "greedy" insurance companies that should "pay" for the uninsured. Why is a company that has a 5% profit margin "greedy" and responsible for a public service (paying for the uninsured) when a company that makes a 30% profit margin isn't?

[MannyIsGod]

It's better to have watered-down, shitty health care for ALL, rather than quality based on what you can afford.

That's just how liberals think.

It's not fair that some people are rich and others poor.

Can you explain to me why places with this watered down and shitty health care for all maintain much higher levels of health?

[DarrinS]

If that's what you really think, then why are you so opposed to have the 'watered-down, shitty healthcare' compete against the 'quality' healthcare?

Wouldn't the quality healthcare win out?


It should. Remember, in the words of Obama, "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

[ElNono]

Honestly if your'e paying for a bill out of pocket you can negotiate it down relatively quickly and easily in the same manner that insurance companies do (sometimes even better - medical practices love cash) but many people don't know this.

Not everybody will do that. Especially when they already billed the insurance and the insurance denied the claim.

But I agree this is one of the main drivers of higher prices.

[MannyIsGod]

That's very "free market" of you, Manny.

Its very practical of me Darrin. When was the last time you saw me claim to be some sort of communist? Don't let the facts stop you from creating strawmen, however. I would hate to see that.

[DarrinS]

Can you explain to me why places with this watered down and shitty health care for all maintain much higher levels of health?

Canadians love their system. Just ask them.

[MannyIsGod]

I intentionally made the comparison with Google silly. But it boils down to your assumptions of the "greedy" insurance companies that should "pay" for the uninsured. Why is a company that has a 5% profit margin "greedy" and responsible for a public service (paying for the uninsured) when a company that makes a 30% profit margin isn't?

The profit margin of a company doesn't tell the whole story by any means. Its a gross oversimplification because it doesn't' take into account what they spend their money on.

In the end all insurance boils down to is a subsidization of risk by other parties. Insurance is actually the type of business model that I feel people should have very little problem with government picking up because its a society wide subsidization of risk and as you pointed out earlier with university Hospital we already pick up the slack for the most expensive portion of society.

[ElNono]

I intentionally made the comparison with Google silly. But it boils down to your assumptions of the "greedy" insurance companies that should "pay" for the uninsured. Why is a company that has a 5% profit margin "greedy" and responsible for a public service (paying for the uninsured) when a company that makes a 30% profit margin isn't?

Because we've given these companies tangible benefits (subsidies, legislation allowing them bully providers) in order to reduce the cost of care, but ultimately their goal never is to reduce the cost of care. Their fiduciary duty is to their shareholders, not their customers.

If you would take out those tangible benefits, then you would hear a lot less bitching about their profits.

[CosmicCowboy]

You guys still want to find a villain in this. The fact is, there isn't one. Health care is just too damn good. Theres a pill/surgery/procedure for virtually every single thing that ails you and we are aggressively researching to "cure" the few things we can't cure now.

People live longer. People use health care more. People don't believe in living with pain. Hip hurts? Don't take aspirin...lets just put you a new hip in! It's all expensive.

When someone doesn't die of that heart attack they had at 50 (like they would have 40 years ago) they end up using another 40 years of very expensive health care.

[MannyIsGod]

Canadians love their system. Just ask them.

Your juke moves need work. You may have completely avoided the question but you're still lying on the ground.

I'm surprised you didn't post your favorite youtube to go along with that post.

[MannyIsGod]

You guys still want to find a villain in this. The fact is, there isn't one. Health care is just too damn good. Theres a pill/surgery/procedure for virtually every single thing that ails you and we are aggressively researching to "cure" the few things we can't cure now.

People live longer. People use health care more. People don't believe in living with pain. Hip hurts? Don't take aspirin...lets just put you a new hip in! It's all expensive.

When someone doesn't die of that heart attack they had at 50 (like they would have 40 years ago) they end up using another 40 years of very expensive health care.

I think you're trying to peg us with something that isn't true. Its not about villians at all but about health care access and a healthier society.

[ElNono]

It should. Remember, in the words of Obama, "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

So why do you oppose to such competition and see who wins out?
Isn't that what free market is all about?

[ducks]

the canadians hate their system
I talk to them in the winter when they come down here. They can only stay down in Yuma 6 months because they have to pay insurance when down here. But they can not get treatement in canada quickly.
they can not believe the USA people would want care like Canada!

[ElNono]

You guys still want to find a villain in this. The fact is, there isn't one. Health care is just too damn good. Theres a pill/surgery/procedure for virtually every single thing that ails you and we are aggressively researching to "cure" the few things we can't cure now.

People live longer. People use health care more. People don't believe in living with pain. Hip hurts? Don't take aspirin...lets just put you a new hip in! It's all expensive.

When someone doesn't die of that heart attack they had at 50 (like they would have 40 years ago) they end up using another 40 years of very expensive health care.

No such thing. It's about finding a good system that provides better access at a balanced cost. We're simply paying a lot more for worse coverage than other places in the world.

[CosmicCowboy]

And I admit it. I'm a selfish asshole. I pay a lot of money in taxes and don't want to pay more to subsidize people that made bad lifestyle choices.

That guy that hassles me for change/beer money every time I go to the Valero around the corner from my office? I don't feel obligated to pay for his liver transplant when he needs it. Even worse, I don't want the cocksucker on the list ahead of me or my wife, or daughter if we need one, since I'm paying for his too.

Yeah, I'm a greedy heartless bastard.

[ElNono]

the canadians hate their system
I talk to them in the winter when they come down here. They can only stay down in Yuma 6 months because they have to pay insurance when down here. But they can not get treatement in canada quickly.
they can not believe the USA people would want care like Canada!

Everybody will tell you a different story. My sister lived in Canada for years. She never had problems with access or quality of care.

If anything, her main complain was with taxes.

[MannyIsGod]

Thats understandable CC. I don't want to give bums money either. But this is where pragmatism comes in. When I think about government expenditures I realize that issues like healthcare pose hidden costs on the system that are rarely addressed and that society foots the bill for one way or another.

This is just an analogy, but if I told you that the bum across the street would break into your car and cause you 400 dollars in bills to repair and replace items but could be avoided if you gave him 100 (assuming this was the only way to avoid it) you would likely give him the 100. Its not a fair situation, but the fact is that this is how things actually work from a social perspective. A lot of times government money spent up front in a wise manner can save our country money in the future.

[ElNono]

And I admit it. I'm a selfish asshole. I pay a lot of money in taxes and don't want to pay more to subsidize people that made bad lifestyle choices.

That guy that hassles me for change/beer money every time I go to the Valero around the corner from my office? I don't feel obligated to pay for his liver transplant when he needs it. Even worse, I don't want the cocksucker on the list ahead of me if I need one, since I'm paying for his too.

Yeah, I'm a greedy heartless bastard.

I don't personally like the 'one mold fits all' either. I think if you can afford to buy better service, you should be able to. At the same time, I think it's important that everybody has baseline care.

Maybe that guy at the Valero is in that situation because he couldn't get access to care for mental treatment at an early age. Ultimately, a more healthy society benefits us all.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't personally like the 'one mold fits all' either. I think if you can afford to buy better service, you should be able to. At the same time, I think it's important that everybody has baseline care.

Maybe that guy at the Valero is in that situation because he couldn't get access to care for mental treatment at an early age. Ultimately, a more healthy society benefits us all.

[CosmicCowboy]

Manny, I would be all for a quality taxpayer subsidized "free clinic" system that was available to all that would cover basic stuff for 100% of the population. Colds, flue, pre-natal care, sprains, cuts, setting broken arms, generic drugs, etc...Then those that wanted more extensive coverage could purchase it. (it would be much cheaper because all the "basics" are already covered) Those that didn't purchase the extended coverage wouldn't get extended coverage.

[ElNono]

Manny, I would be all for a quality taxpayer subsidized "free clinic" system that was available to all that would cover basic stuff for 100% of the population. Colds, flue, pre-natal care, sprains, cuts, setting broken arms, generic drugs, etc...Then those that wanted more extensive coverage could purchase it. (it would be much cheaper because all the "basics" are already covered) Those that didn't purchase the extended coverage wouldn't get extended coverage.

Unfortunately, that makes too much sense... :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

And I'm not being an elitist here...I pretty much practice what I preach...I rarely go to the doctor...my insurance company offers a service where a nurse practitioner comes to my office for the "little" things and they provide generic drugs as part of the service. I don't feel like I have to see a doctor and get the latest, greatest drug for everything...

[ChumpDumper]

No shit Sherlock.

The people that pay for insurance get coverage. The ones that don't go to University Hospital and our property taxes pay for it.Actually the insurance pays for the uninsured as well.

Does coverage included every possible treatment?

[DarrinS]

I think Greece has a really higly ranked health care system, according to the WHO. Their economy is completely fucked, but they have great health care.

[ChumpDumper]

I think Greece has a really higly ranked health care system, according to the WHO. Their economy is completely fucked, but they have great health care.Is the health care system the cause of all Greece's financial problems?

[CosmicCowboy]

Is free health care up to and including organ and joint transplants an automatic right of citizenship?

[ChumpDumper]

Is free health care up to and including organ and joint transplants an automatic right of citizenship?I doubt it.


Does coverage included every possible treatment?

[CosmicCowboy]

Actually, CD, I know of an unemployed alcoholic (brother of one of my employees) that got a liver transplant at University and didn't pay anything. He died later because he didn't take care of himself and eventually rejected but he got it all for free.