Spurs Playoff +/- Stats

[bigbendbruisebrother]

http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PSAS1.HTM

San Antonio Spurs
2004-2005 NBA PLAYOFF Stats

Individual Player Floor Time statistics


Player Min +/- Off Def Net48 W L Win%
Ginobili 64% +101 106.6 92.3 14.2 10 1 90
Parker 75% +69 101.7 93.4 8.3 7 4 63
Duncan 71% +69 98.6 89.9 8.7 7 2 77
Horry 49% +52 104.6 95.1 9.5 8 3 72
Bowen 69% +34 96.1 91.7 4.4 7 4 63
Udrih 26% +31 93.2 82.7 10.5 7 4 63
Robinson 18% +31 91.0 76.3 14.8 4 3 57
Nesterovic 14% +25 96.5 81.3 15.3 6 2 75
Mohammed 49% +24 93.8 89.4 4.4 6 4 60
Barry 52% +20 95.2 91.7 3.5 5 5 50
Massenburg 3% +5 107.1 93.0 14.1 2 0 100
Brown 4% +4 108.9 101.1 7.8 4 2 66

Legend:

Min = the percentage of the team's total minutes the player was on the floor.

+/- = net points (+/-) for the team while the player was on the floor.

Net48 = the team net points per 48 minutes of playing time for the player.

W = number of games a player's team outscored its opponents while he was on the court.

L = number of games a player's team was outscored by its opponents while he was on the court.

Win% = the winning percentage for the player based on Wins versus Losses.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Damn, I thought I got those columns lined up. I give up.

Whottt, how did you insert that table last time?

Anybody who wants to give it a try, follow the link above.

There are a lot more Spurs playoff stats there. The five man roster stats are really interesting. http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PSAS2.HTM

The most effective lineup from a field goal percentage standpoint is Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Horry-Mohammed.

The worst lineup in terms of keeping opponents' big men out of the paint has been Parker-Barry-Bowen-Horry-Duncan. The best at preventing penetration has been Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Horry-Mohammed.

The only lineup that the Nuggets and Sonics have outscored completely is Parker-Barry-Bowen-Duncan-Mohammed. It's a -28! Switch Barry for Ginobili, and the unit goes to +15!

Find negative category, and Barry is in that rotation. Come on Bones!

Individually, from every statstistical standpoint, Manu is the man. In fact, when he's been on the bench overall for the playoffs, the Spurs have been outscored by 8 points--the only player whose off-court status causes the team to give up more points than they score.

[timvp]

What??????????

I thought Barry was the key to a championship. Whottt told me. How can he be last in +/-?

[timvp]

Damn, I thought I got those columns lined up. I give up.

Fixed.

:smokin

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Fixed.

:smokin

Thanks!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It just goes to show Tony Massenberg is the key to the title :lol


Ginobili 64% +101

That's sick.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

It just goes to show Tony Massenberg is the key to the title :lol


Ginobili 64% +101

That's sick.

The most surprising thing to me was that we give up more points in the paint with Tim on the floor than we do when he is off court. Statistically at least, Horry/Mohammed has been a better (marginally so, by 8 points) combo at defending the paint than Duncan/Mohammed. That conclusion is based on the close in shot stat below. How can that be? Is Tim's ankle impeding him that much?

http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PSAS2.HTM

Top Five-Man Floor Units
# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Parker-Barry-Bowen-Duncan-Mohammed 73 118 146 -28 2 7 22
2 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Horry-Duncan 68 157 136 +21 8 2 80
3 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Duncan-Mohammed 49 103 88 +15 2 3 40
4 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Horry-Mohammed 40 96 79 +17 7 2 77
5 Parker-Barry-Bowen-Horry-Duncan 17 39 43 -4 2 4 33


Top Five-Man Floor Units, Details
# Unit eFG eFGA FTA Close dClose Reb T/O
1 Parker-Barry-Bowen-Duncan-Mohammed .419 .521 +2 35% 32% 106% -7%
2 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Horry-Duncan .528 .482 +27 30% 40% 98% +2%
3 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Duncan-Mohammed .531 .390 -5 52% 41% 109% -7%
4 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Horry-Mohammed .642 .500 +5 25% 31% 106% 0%
5 Parker-Barry-Bowen-Horry-Duncan .534 .682 -2 41% 55% 112% +3%


Legend:

Min = the total minutes the unit was on the floor.

Off = the unit's points scored.

Def = the unit's points allowed.

+/- = the team net points for the unit.

W = number of games a unit outscored its opponents while on the court.

L = number of games a unit was outscored by its opponents while on the court.

Win% = the winning percentage for the unit based on Wins versus Losses.

[SLOVENIAN 8]

And Rasho is better than Nazr :lol :lol

[bigbendbruisebrother]

And Rasho is better than Nazr :lol :lol

It's too bad Rasho hasn't had more PT, because it would be really intersting to compare the five man units with Rasho and Nazr.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You're talking about a +/- difference of one (basically a wash), and trying to compare a guy with PT of 14% to one of 50%. I know you're Slovenian, but that's still a huge reach.

Tim hasn't been near the defender he usually is, and it's the easiest way for me to see he's not healthy. Most of the time when guys drive the lane, he just gets out of the way.

[whottt]

TimVP...this is fucking classic, I used +/- a week ago and you pissed all over it...I have used 82 games all season long and you pissed all over it...when it wasn't saying what you want it to say...

I'll engage in this debate with you if you promise to recognize it's relevance when it doesn't back up what you say, as much as you do when it does...

Needless to say...ol BBBB can't even handle the code function, or figure out that I made my own fucking JPG to post the table, much less grasp what these numbers truly say.

I suggest you look at it again...

Before you get owned...Right now it looks like you guys can't even read, much less understand the relevance of these numbers...

For starters, douchebags, Barry isn't the only common factor on those worst lineups...Parker, Duncan and Bowen are on there too.





The best lineups all have Ginobili in them...I think anyone that actually watches the game understands that, when Manu is in the game...we don't run four down as much...what we do a lot of when Manu isn't in there...is watch Duncan trying to regain his offensive form...anyone that plays with Manu puts up better numbers...guess who plays fewer minutes with Manu than any other guy on the team?



Let me know if you want to continue this...but I'll only do it if you promise to acknowledge the relevance of everything, and not just what suits you, and what you want to see....either it all counts, or it doesnt.

[timvp]

I'll engage in this debate with you if you promise to recognize it's relevance

Bring it on. Show me how Brent Barry has been Michael Jordan in the playoffs. I don't care about the regular season. The Spurs are about the playoffs.

Barry has hit one or two big shots in the playoffs but Whottt is convinced that he's the key to the team. Let's see how he dances around Barry's +/- in the Seattle series.

[whottt]

Bring it on. Show me how Brent Barry has been Michael Jordan in the playoffs. I don't care about the regular season. The Spurs are about the playoffs.

That's hilarious...because I can probably find about 50 or 60 posts by you this season labeling him as a choker based on what he did in the regular season...Unfortunately you can't use that anymore because be he made you eat your words by stepping up down the stretch...



Barry has hit one or two big shots in the playoffs but Whottt is convinced that he's the key to the team. Let's see how he dances around Barry's +/- in the Seattle series.


Barry doesn't get many opportunities to hit big shots...when he does get those opportunities, he hits them.

[whottt]

Ok...

By the way...I can defend his +/- easily...we've outscored our opponents when he is on the court. Gee that was fucking hard. Feel free to go to Net if you want...but you better watchout for your wife if you do it...

I'll be back to open your eyes more in a bit.

[timvp]

That's hilarious...because I can probably find about 50 or 60 posts by you this season labeling him as a choker based on what he did in the regular season...Unfortunately you can't use that anymore because be he made you eat your words by stepping up down the stretch...

Yeah he was a choker in the preseason, in the regular and now in the playoffs.

Eat my words? Billion Barry hit one three pointer. That's pretty horrible considering he was never being guarded. The Suns treated him like he was Rasho standing out there beyond the arc.

Let me know if you what photographic proof.


Barry doesn't get many opportunities to hit big shots...when he does get those opportunities, he hits them.

:lol

The only reason why he doesn't get the opportunities is because he's afraid to shoot the ball 99% of the team. He hit one shot when he was wide open.

Hedo hit more than one big shot last playoffs.

What was wrong in game five? It was the biggest game of the season and he did NOTHING in 22 minutes of play. No assists. No rebounds. No points. No steals. No nothing.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't think +/- stats are very valid. There's too many factors. For example, Bowen is the starter that stays most on the floor with the scrubs. i.e. When the Spurs are winning or losing big, Bowen still stays out there with 4 non-starters. So, to me, it's logical that he wouldn't have a great +/-. Also, whoever plays with Ginobili the most gets their + boosted even if they do absolutely nothing.

So to me, this whole thread is pretty much crap unless you actually watch the games and realize all the extenuating circumstances and then add them in and make your own conclusions.

My +/- two cents.

[timvp]

Ok...

By the way...I can defend his +/- easily...we've outscored our opponents when he is on the court.

Yeah, you can say the samething for everyone on the team you dumb@$$. That might be the worst job you've ever did defending you man, and that's saying a lot.

Other than the 12th man (TMass) and the cripple (DBrown), Barry has the worst +/- on the team.

[whottt]

More....

#1. Manu, not Duncan, leads the entire NBA in playoff +/-.

#2. You notice that none of those lineups include Barry and Manu together.

#3. Those 5 man rotations are not indicative of us being out scored when Barry is in the game, or even being outscored for a segment of PT...they are indicative of what has happened when those 5 have been on the court, the minute Pop makes a substitution it changes.

#4. That worst lineup? That's the lineup you and TPark wanted when you wanted Barry to start. Who said it wouldn't help? Certainly not you...I said it wouldn't. I said it wouldn't because of the type of offense we were playing. And it got even worse...Give props. I was right..you guys were wrong. Admit it.

#5. That second worst linup has only played 17 minutes total through 11 playoff games, that's just barely over a minute and a half per game. That's not indicative of anything really...how can you judge something a minute and half per game.

#6. The third worst lineup on our team...is our other starting line up, even with Manu, the league leader in +/- on it. What does that indicate? 4 down and 1 on 1 basketball with nonexitent passing and guys chucking up shit in clogged paint totally rules! Pop goes the weasel.


#7. Like I said when I owned you after Duncan and Devin went out with injury and Barry played his best ball of this season...including blowouts over both the Rockets and the Spurs, and 2 double OT wins....Barry doesn't play in the half court set we run with Duncan very well...no shooters do their first season here...

What was Pop's genius solution to getting more out of Barry? Give him even more fucking minutes in that offense and even fewer with Manu(who he plays well with). Fucking brilliant. I've said it all season long..Barry should run the offense off the bench...Pop elects not do that because he'd rather watch Beno cause 9 point swings in the final minutes of quarters while jacking up beaucop shots with the worst FG%'s on the team. I do give Beno credit for finally upping his stats to where he is making more assists than TO's per game.


I'll be back with more...

But in closing...I'll also say that the lineup that gives up the second fewest shots in the paint...includes Brent Barry...the second best offensive lineup, also includes Brent Barry, the lineup that gets into the paint the second most...also has Barry in it...and again, unlike Parker, and Bowen, he's not getting heavy minutes with Manu, the league leader in +/- and far and away the best guy on the team in terms of +/-, he's subbing for him.

[wildbill2u]

I don't like the use of the word 'scrubs' for our bench, regardless of the merits of their individual stats in one game or the series. They are the Spurs bench, damnit, not scrubs. They are our 'spirit' team, who give their best while the heroes take a breather.

[whottt]

Yeah, you can say the samething for everyone on the team you dumb@$$. That might be the worst job you've ever did defending you man, and that's saying a lot.

Other than the 12th man (TMass) and the cripple (DBrown), Barry has the worst +/- on the team.


Yeah? And in the first Duncan, Bowen and Mohammed had the worst, I didn't hear you saying much about then....what's your point? I get it...it only counts when it suits your argument...

Kinda like you made a big deal about Net previously when it suited your argument and you mystifyingly seem to have lost your desire to focus on that now...I wonder why...but you and I both know why don't we? ;)

[Kori Ellis]

I don't like the use of the word 'scrubs' for our bench, regardless of the merits of their individual stats in one game or the series. They are the Spurs bench, damnit, not scrubs. They are our 'spirit' team, who give their best while the heroes take a breather.

I hear ya.

But my use of the term "scrubs" has nothing to do with their performances. I call everyone's bench that. It's just my term for bench players.

[whottt]

I don't think +/- stats are very valid. There's too many factors. For example, Bowen is the starter that stays most on the floor with the scrubs. i.e. When the Spurs are winning or losing big, Bowen still stays out there with 4 non-starters. So, to me, it's logical that he wouldn't have a great +/-. Also, whoever plays with Ginobili the most gets their + boosted even if they do absolutely nothing.

So to me, this whole thread is pretty much crap unless you actually watch the games and realize all the extenuating circumstances and then add them in and make your own conclusions.

My +/- two cents.


They aren't yet...but they are essentially all we have to go on...

We could go on FG%...Barry of course sucked ass and was the worst player in NBA history, by shooting 44% from the field, 55% from 2, and 375% from 3...Against Seattle...so we won't focus on that.

Note...this is without including Barry's big game 2 from Denver...

Numbers that would put just about all of Manu's series prior to this season, his 3rd with team...to absolute shame. Bowen's too.

And you guys act like Barry can't hit the side of a Barn...


It's funny...you guys don't even notice what Beno and Bowen and all those guys are shooting....or the times in the past they have 10% from 3 and 33% from the field, in so many others playoff series...

But Barry shoots what would be good numbers for any shooter on our team in the past 6 years, including Spurs immortals like Mario Elie and Stephen Jackson...and you guys fucking hate on him like there is no tomorrow...

Double Standard...and it's just flat out wrong.

[Kori Ellis]

It's funny...you guys don't even notice what Beno and Bowen and all those guys are shooting....or the times in the past they have 10% from 3 and 33% from the field, in so many others playoff series...

Everyone notices that Beno is shooting like crap. And timvp started a thread last week on how much Bowen has sucked from 2 in the post season -- maybe you missed it when you were on your post-game five hiatus from the forum.

[timvp]

More....

#1. Manu, not Duncan, leads the entire NBA in playoff +/-.

Yeah, Manu is having the playoffs of his life. What does that have to do with Billion Barry?


#2. You notice that none of those lineups include Barry and Manu together.

Manu carries Barry? Nothing new.


#3. Those 5 man rotations are not indicative of us being out scored when Barry is in the game, or even being outscored for a segment of PT...they are indicative of what has happened when those 5 have been on the court, the minute Pop makes a substitution it changes.

Barry sucks. Admit it.


#4. That worst lineup? That's the lineup you and TPark wanted when you wanted Barry to start. Who said it wouldn't help? Certainly not you...I said it wouldn't. I said it wouldn't because of the type of offense we were playing. And it got even worse...Give props. I was right..you guys were wrong. Admit it.

You were the one spouting how good the Spurs were when Barry started. Don't turn your back on that now.

I over-estimated Barry's courage. I thought he'd step up when he was given a chance to play with the rest of the starters.

Didn't happen.


#5. That second worst linup has only played 17 minutes total through 11 playoff games, that's just barely over a minute and a half per game. That's not indicative of anything really...how can you judge something a minute and half per game.

Barry sucks. Admit it.


#6. The third worst lineup on our team...is our other starting line up, even with Manu, the league leader in +/- on it. What does that indicate? 4 down and 1 on 1 basketball with nonexitent passing and guys chucking up shit in clogged paint totally rules! Pop goes the weasel.

Not sure what you are babbling about. Not that that's a new thing.*



#7. Like I said when I owned you after Duncan and Devin went out with injury and Barry played his best ball of this season...including blowouts over both the Rockets and the Spurs, and 2 double OT wins....Barry doesn't play in the half court set we run with Duncan very well...no shooters do their first season here...

Regular season doesn't count. Barry sucked until he was forced to do something with most of the other players injured.


What was Pop's genius solution to getting more out of Barry? Give him even more fucking minutes in that offense and even fewer with Manu(who he plays well with). Fucking brilliant. I've said it all season long..Barry should run the offense off the bench...Pop elects not do that because he'd rather watch Beno cause 9 point swings in the final minutes of quarters while jacking up beaucop shots with the worst FG%'s on the team. I do give Beno credit for finally upping his stats to where he is making more assists than TO's per game.


I'll be back with more...

Your stance should be that Manu = God. If you said that, it'd be hard to find stats that disprove that.

You like to say that Barry plays well with Manu ... well yeah, you could go out there with Manu and have a positive +/-.



But in closing...I'll also say that the lineup that gives up the second fewest shots in the paint...includes Brent Barry

:lmao

Yeah, the defense of Billion Barry must be the deciding factor in that.

You've lost it. You're defending a guy who barely contributes even though he isn't being guarded.

Nice of you to turn down the photographic evidence that people don't guard Barry. How Barry-esque of you to get scared of a situation.

You'd make him proud.








*Cue Whottt deleting his post in a hissy fit.

[timvp]

Everyone notices that Beno is shooting like crap. And timvp started a thread last week on how much Bowen has sucked from 2 in the post season -- maybe you missed it when you were on your post-game five hiatus from the forum.


http://www.trashfolder.org/satoshi/images/owned.jpg

[bigbendbruisebrother]

I don't think +/- stats are very valid.
My +/- two cents.

I probably should have called this thread something like 82games.com Posts Playoff Stats, because I agree with you that the +/- stats are somewhat misleading (and in some players' cases, downright amusing).

Take a look at the 5 man unit stats though (oy, I wish I knew how to insert a formatted table, but it's at http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PSAS2.HTM; timvp, help again please?)

All of the top rated five man units that the Spurs have run through the Nuggets and Sonics include Bruce Bowen, which I think speaks to his value to the team.

Conversely, take a look at any unit which includes Brent Barry and you see marked dropoffs in points produced and marked increases in points allowed, particularly close in shots, but also effective field goal % allowed (which factors in the increased value of 3 pointers).

I really, really want to see Brent Barry work out, and I hope he kicks ass against the Suns, but to date, the guy has not just not produced offensively, his presence on the court has been detrimental to the team in just about every way (the Spurs turn the ball over more, allow more dunks and three pointers and commit more turnovers--and this is including the rotation where BB started).

I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at these stats wrong. It's possible. I don't pretend to be a basketball genius. Somebody out there: find something good to say about Brent Barry based on the team playoff stats.

[danyel]

Don't you care too much about stats?

Last time I checked this was about winning, not about stats...

Pop should find a way to get Barry more involved in the offense, or else all we can hope for is Brown healing faster.

[whottt]

I saw it...just like I saw the general consensus that Bowen's problem was playing like a coward, which I found amusing considrering he torched Kobe Bryant's ass when LA was the 3 time defending champion...so I didn't bother responding...because I know that's not what the probem is...


Guys are either cowards or they aren't...they don't change from game to game depending on how many shots they take.

Bowen isn't a coward...and neither is Barry. There's aren't any cowards on this team and this is the most talented Spurs team in NBA history...it all revolved around Pop's micromanaging tendencies at that particular stretch...

I give him credit for fixing it in games 4 and 5.

The problem was there absolutely no kickout from the paint...to Bowen or Barry...and Manu, Parker and Duncan were playing one on one(and Beno and Robinson are too)...I bitched about it...and the Spurs started doing that in game 5...Problem solved.

I don't mind Big Dogg doing it...since that's what he does. but I got a problem with the way everone else was doing it...

Did you see what Manu said he learned in game 5? Utilize a teamate...he used to know that on his own...until Pop beat it out of him by telling everyone to take it into the paint and play on one one(it had to be Pop if even Beno is doing it).

All you need to know is that Manu is allowed to play differently than any other guy on the team, albeit still more restrained than he would be if left to his own deviced...Pop has said Manu's style of play drives him totally crazy but he puts up with it because you get the most out of him that way...Notice Pop is driven crazy by the same characteristics that make Manu the best +/- player in the NBA.

[Kori Ellis]

Did you see what Manu said he learned in game 5? Utilize a teamate...he used to know that on his own...until Pop beat it out of him.

Stupidest take that you've ever made.

[whottt]

Yeah but I still got a ways to go to catch up with the idiots that think these players are cowards...

I'll work on it.

[timvp]

You know what ... this is shaping up to be another pointless Brent Barry thread. Anyone who has watched him play in the playoffs know that he alternates between being The Invisible Man and The Human Placeholder. Only Whottt can find the beauty of what Billion Barry has done so far. And Whottt doesn't even believe it himself, he's just trying to save face on the point he's been getting destroyed on since preseason.

I'm bailing out of this conversation. There are more important things to discuss than a no impact player such as Billion. Let Whottt skew the numbers to make it seem that Billion is something more than a playoff non-factor.

Whottt's reign was over after he vanished from the board for 52 hours after the Game Five Billion Barry debacle. He didn't post at all until after the next game. That was the biggest wuss move of this forum's history.

I invite Whottt to join some other conversation other than Barry. Whottt has good passion and is usually a solid poster, but he's stuck in a rut. Please consider talking about something else for a change.

B. Barry 22 0-3 0-2 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Bye.





P.S.

I'm hopeful that Billion can do something against the Suns. The Suns aren't exactly a defensive juggernaut and Billion can actually matchup against them. I think he'll have his moments.

Believe.

[picnroll]

whottt's season long taking it up the rear for Barry will rank up there with Ghost's Payton love affair and the (was it Aggie? apologies if not) Coyote > DRob battle as some of all time most pathetic personal crusades in Spurs' message board history.

[Kori Ellis]

the (was it Aggie? apologies if not) Coyote > DRob battle

That was Whottt. But he never exactly said that Coyote > DRob -- and with that, another argument may begin.

[picnroll]

Wow two of the all time worst! Hats off whottt.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Don't you care too much about stats?

Last time I checked this was about winning, not about stats...

Pop should find a way to get Barry more involved in the offense, or else all we can hope for is Brown healing faster.

No, I don't. I just live in the middle of nowhere, and I enjoy talking to other Spurs fans when there are no games. You're right. It is all just about winning, but if you take away people analyzing why this team plays the way it does, there would be very few posts.

The 82games.com stats are really interesting to me because they help explain to me how this team can be so hot and cold within individual games.

[Useruser666]

When you get a chance to go to a Spurs game you get to pickup on things that you just can't by watching from home. Case in point. When Barry gets the ball, about 14,000 people get a little antzy and mumble under their breath. The other 4,797 people just got tickets as gifts.

[whottt]

Yeah, Manu is having the playoffs of his life. What does that have to do with Billion Barry?







You were the one spouting how good the Spurs were when Barry started. Don't turn your back on that now.


No, I spouted how good they are when he +25 minutes per game and is allowed to participate in the offense and the 4th quarter.

I was the one saying starting him was not the solution...I wasn't defending the move.



I over-estimated Barry's courage. I thought he'd step up when he was given a chance to play with the rest of the starters.

You also ignored that the fact that everyone of Barry's best scoring games came off the bench...and with Duncan injured. Including leading the team 4 times off the bench, the only timess he lead the team this season.

I said starting him was a lazy and uninsightful solution to the problem...I was right.




Didn't happen.

You didn't pay attention to what I said...if you had you wouldn't have been surprised.




Barry sucks. Admit it.

Give me something other than a positive +/- and I might be willing to agree...as it is...I am defending a guy for being +20 while being Manu's(the league leader in playoff +/-) sub.

I just know how or why I am defending a guy for for being postitive in +/-, shooting over 50% from 2 for 2 consecuvtive playoff series, for shooting 37% from 3, 44% from the field, being 4th on the team in assists, second in FT %, 3rd in PPS...

I just don't know how to defend that...

I can only assume you guys haven't got a clue what the fuck you are talking about.

I guess we can talk about a career 10PPG scorer scoring 6.7 in fewer minutes...or 5.4 when the entire team is playing like ball hogs and not passing it out of the paint.

But it still doesn't make any sense.




Not sure what you are babbling about. Not that that's a new thing.*

Yeah...like I was babbling when I said starting him with Duncan wouldn't help..





Regular season doesn't count. Barry sucked until he was forced to do something with most of the other players injured.

I see your point...Barry stepped up when he was most needed, without Tim Duncan....what a fucking gutless coward.

And Manu didn't play in all those games...like the second double OT win.




Your stance should be that Manu = God. If you said that, it'd be hard to find stats that disprove that.

Um...I have always been a Manu fan...but I don't think he was playing much team ball this series....I don't think Parker or Duncan were either...I guess the dispute lies in whether or not they were doing what Pop wanted them to do...

Since they had been doing it since game 3 or so of the Denver series I have to conclude it was what he wanted.



You like to say that Barry plays well with Manu ... well yeah, you could go out there with Manu and have a positive +/-.

Barry has a positive +/- subbing for Manu...that's my point.

You and other Barry haters are the only guys that thinks a positive +/- subbing for the league leader in +/- is a negative thing...





:lmao

Yeah, the defense of Billion Barry must be the deciding factor in that.

Barry's defense has been much improved since Duncan got injured...I might point out that you thought he wasn't supposed to be doubling Carmelo in that Denver series when Pop yanked him...you were wrong. Pop yanked him becasue he was sticking with the double after Melo was no longer posting up and follow it up to the perimeter...and Manu was doubling from the same spot on Melo's post ups.




You've lost it. You're defending a guy who barely contributes even though he isn't being guarded.

Yeah...teams are leaving the 17th best 3 shooter in NBA history wide open...You should be happy Barry has started to chuck up shitty shots.

What you don't understand...Barry has shot fine from 3 this season...it's only Spurfans that think he sucks..Most Spurs fans know offense like TPark knows the female anatomy.



Nice of you to turn down the photographic evidence that people don't guard Barry. How Barry-esque of you to get scared of a situation.

You'd make him proud.

What photographic evidence would that be?









Cue Whottt deleting his post in a hissy fit.[/SIZE]

I got called out and then got ripped for responding...like I have all season on this subject...

[timvp]

You know what ... this is shaping up to be another pointless Brent Barry thread. Anyone who has watched him play in the playoffs know that he alternates between being The Invisible Man and The Human Placeholder. Only Whottt can find the beauty of what Billion Barry has done so far. And Whottt doesn't even believe it himself, he's just trying to save face on the point he's been getting destroyed on since preseason.

I'm bailing out of this conversation. There are more important things to discuss than a no impact player such as Billion. Let Whottt skew the numbers to make it seem that Billion is something more than a playoff non-factor.

Whottt's reign was over after he vanished from the board for 52 hours after the Game Five Billion Barry debacle. He didn't post at all until after the next game. That was the biggest wuss move of this forum's history.

I invite Whottt to join some other conversation other than Barry. Whottt has good passion and is usually a solid poster, but he's stuck in a rut. Please consider talking about something else for a change.

B. Barry 22 0-3 0-2 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Bye.





P.S.

I'm hopeful that Billion can do something against the Suns. The Suns aren't exactly a defensive juggernaut and Billion can actually matchup against them. I think he'll have his moments.

Believe.

[whottt]

TimVP...I'd bail too if I suddenly realized I was ripping a guy for putting up better numbers than he did in the regular season, for having a positive +/, it's freaking positive...and for ripping him for being placeholder, when that is all his coach lets him be(except in our biggest wins of the season), and siding with a guy that is challenged by the code function, making a JPG, and thinks playing in the lineup with the best TO ratio and not having made more than 3 TO's in a game this entire season, is the reason for our turnover problems.


And you guys probably wonder why I am a dickhead on this subject..

You call a postive +/- , stepping up with Duncan injured, shooting 44% from the field and 37% from 3 a negative and evidence of cowardice....I am sorry but you guys are tools.

[danyel]

No, I don't. I just live in the middle of nowhere, and I enjoy talking to other Spurs fans when there are no games. You're right. It is all just about winning, but if you take away people analyzing why this team plays the way it does, there would be very few posts.

The 82games.com stats are really interesting to me because they help explain to me how this team can be so hot and cold within individual games.

I do agree with you on most of it, but I think you might be overanalyzing this. Stats hardly ever tell you the entire picture, Barry having +1 or +1.2 or -2 or whatever shouldn't be the focus of our concern. The fact that he isnt being able to perform up to the level we know he can or that Pop can't find the propper way to use him in the best advantage of the Spurs should.

With Hedo we all knew he was a bet, as much talent as he has he did struggle the season before he got here and he never established himself as an important player. Barry, on the other side, is, so I do think Pop has some blame to take for Barry's poor season and playoffs.

[Nikos]

TimVP...I'd bail too if I suddenly realized I was ripping a guy for putting up better numbers than he did in the regular season...........

Barry putting up better numbers? That's news to me.

I hope he can put up the #'s tommrow and in the Suns series. Cause the Spurs will need him.

[whottt]

What Mario Elie shot in the playoffs the year we won the title, his first year with the team:

FG% 384, 3PT PCT 267%.


What Steve Kerr shot his first year:

FG% 267, 3PT% 231

I know, I know, you clowns probably thought he was a coward coming off his 3 consecutive titles...because he didn't excel in the Spurs shitty offense.



What Stephen Jackson shot his first year:

Ooops.

What Stephen Jackson shot his second year:

FG% 414, 3PT% 336.

FG% VS LA Mr Clutch shot: 327%, 3PT% 188%

Bowen his first year:

FG% 410, 3PT% 440.

But wait...

With Brent Barry guarding him:

FG% 333%, 3 PT% 333

LOL People call Barry a choker but he shot a hell of a lot better against Bowen than Bowen did against him.

Bruce the year we won the title:

FG% 373, 3PT% 438( I won't pull a TimVP and take away the game where Bowen made 7 3 pointers).

Bowen last year:

FG% 367, 3PT PCT 379.


Manu First year:

FG% 367%, 3PT% 384%.

Manu last year:

FG 447%, 3PT% 286.

Hedo:

FG% 321, 3PT%333


Barry:

FG% 438, 3PT%, 367.


So you see...not only is he not doing as badly as a lot of guys did...he's doing better than just about all of them.



Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about....you guys are haters plain and simple...

I got no problem with it...just admit it and stop acting like you are being objective...

I guess you can rip Barry's PPG...and if you expect a 10PPG scorer to bust out on a low scoring team...then you are just dumb and if that's what the Spurs wanted...they are fucking stupid too...don't rip a guy because he's not what you want...rip yourselves and the Spurs for being stupid and not realizing what he was...and it aint a scorer.

[whottt]

Nikos...his numbers are up in every category except PPG...that's down 2 PPG...but Manu and Parker's scoring is up...and it's because they are scoring more.

[Nikos]

Nikos...his numbers are up in every category except PPG...that's down 2 PPG...but Manu and Parker's scoring is up...and it's because they are scoring more.

I also like to factor in minutes into the equation. He simply isn't producing much. Yeah TD, Parker, and Manu get most of the possesions, but I still expect more production than 0-0-0-0-0 in 22 min of a big ball game.

[whottt]

Factor in minutes all you want...but just realize that team assists are down substantially from the regular season...while shot attempts for the big 3 are up, and it doesn't just show up in Barry's stats...it shows in Bowen's stats as well

Don't even and try and tell me the Spurs had the same kind of ball movement for most of the playoffs as they did in the regular season or even the same desire to move the ball...they were taking it into the paint long after it was clogged...it changed when Pop mentioned that it needed to be changed...right after game 4.

I don't think this team is a bunch of rebels...I think they do what Pop asks them to do to the best of their ability. And they get yanked when they don't. 5 games of 1 on 1 means Pop wanted it...not any thing else.

And all you guys that want Barry to penetrate...that's not what the Spurs want him to do and I can find quotes by him saying that...they want him to stand out there and spread the paint...if they wanted him to penetrate more he would be doing it, they would give him plays to do it...he can't penetrate with the excellence of Manu and Parker...but he can do it well enough to get guys open...and he finds them when he does it...he finds them better than any guy on the team IMO. He always looks for his teamates...

You guys call that cowardice...I call it the reason that Parker's best assist season is just barely better than Barry's...I call it the reason Barry's career high in assists is higher than any other guy on our team,...he's a great passer that exemplifies unselfish play...and he does take the big shots when it is asked of him to do so. And he has all season.


Spurs fans have done this guy a serious disservice all season long with the coward label.....it shows a tremendous lack of insight on the behalf of Spurs fans...like I say...show me the fucking choke if he's done it.

[MadDog73]

At this point we need all the helpo we can get.

Who knows? Maybe Barry will have a huge series against the Suns?

He can't get much worse, right? (knock on wood)

[whottt]

You don't get it...Barry is the worst player in NBA history...Pop is an idiot for giving him playing time...

I hope Barry sits the bench for the rest of the series...because, even though it won't shut the anti-Barry whiners up..it should give them something else to whine about and give a little more variety to the board...

Bench Barry...

Spurs fans want a guy jacking up shots...Glenn Robinson does that...and he evidently is a better defender than Barry as well...

When Bigg Dogg gets back he and Beno need to get all of Barry's minutes and if he doesn't Spurs fans need to rip Pop for putting the biggest choking bitch of all time on the court...I mean you can't blame Barry for getting put on the court can you?

Oh wait...the guys I argue with on this are a bunch of fucking tools with no clue for saying what they say....they'll still find a way to blame Barry.

But hopefully it will happen...

It works out for everyone...the coward Barry doesn't have to take the court, whining Spursfans with bad takes and a lack of insight get the scorer they want who will always jack up a bad shot like his coach and his fans want him to do, and I'll have more people shutting the fuck up about it...

Make the move...if it shuts people up an stops the board from turning into the cesspool of bad unenlightened takes it has been turning into recently..I am for it.

And BTW...I don't know why everyone is expecting a miracle change. It's been this way all season and it isn't going to change dramatically. It'll change when our offense changes...some people think that is a mistake...I personally think choking every season on predictable offense makes it more difficult to win a title..

[MadDog73]

And BTW...I don't know why everyone is expecting a miracle change. It's been this way all season and it isn't going to change dramatically. It'll change when our offense changes...some people think that is a mistake...I personally think choking every season on predictable offense makes it more difficult to win a title..

Yep, those "chokes" in 1999 and 2003 were the worst of all.

Man, how dare Pop win 2 titles with his awful coaching! Loser.

[whottt]

Brent Barry does put himself on the court

[MaNuMaNiAc]

What Mario Elie shot in the playoffs the year we won the title, his first year with the team:

FG% 384, 3PT PCT 267%.


What Steve Kerr shot his first year:

FG% 267, 3PT% 231

I know, I know, you clowns probably thought he was a coward coming off his 3 consecutive titles...because he didn't excel in the Spurs shitty offense.



What Stephen Jackson shot his first year:

Ooops.

What Stephen Jackson shot his second year:

FG% 414, 3PT% 336.

FG% VS LA Mr Clutch shot: 327%, 3PT% 188%

Bowen his first year:

FG% 410, 3PT% 440.

But wait...

With Brent Barry guarding him:

FG% 333%, 3 PT% 333

LOL People call Barry a choker but he shot a hell of a lot better against Bowen than Bowen did against him.

Bruce the year we won the title:

FG% 373, 3PT% 438( I won't pull a TimVP and take away the game where Bowen made 7 3 pointers).

Bowen last year:

FG% 367, 3PT PCT 379.


Manu First year:

FG% 367%, 3PT% 384%.

Manu last year:

FG 447%, 3PT% 286.

Hedo:

FG% 321, 3PT%333


Barry:

FG% 438, 3PT%, 367.


So you see...not only is he not doing as badly as a lot of guys did...he's doing better than just about all of them.
Correct me if I'm wrong Whottt, but I think ALL those guys shot a HELL OF A LOT more 3s than what Barry has shot these playoffs. I mean, I think Barry has made MAYBE 4 threepointer the entire series lol. So % doesn't mean shit! I'm sorry, I don't care how you want to put it, but Barry is stinking up the place. Even if he did make a clutch threepointer or two, it still doesn't make up for his bad defence, and the rest of the fucking time he's been either missing or simply not shooting (and don't blame the not shooting on lack of opportunity! 'cause that's just bullshit! I've seen plenty of times Barry has chosen not to shoot when he's been wide open). Barry is playing like SHIT, and there's no way around that.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Plus, didn't we bring him here to be a perimeter sharpshooter??? Now don't try to sell me on that, 'cause that would simply be silly.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Read this Whottt

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16429


The Spurs continuing patchwork continues on the other side of the court. Namely in the form of one Brent Barry. He was supposed to be a cheaper, smarter Stephen Jackson with more assists and less turnovers. Instead, he may very well be the front office’s worst acquisition ever. Even worse when you compare his fear to Jackson’s fearlessness. Jackson wouldn’t be afraid to take the last shot of any game seven. Barry’s afraid to take any open shot, even if there’s only seven seconds on the shot clock. In game five, Barry literally contributed nothing statistically in 22 minutes. He likes to make the lightening chest pass then dart to another corner of the court. He likes to stand two or three feet behind the arc so that he’s not actually open for a good shot if he does get the ball.

[whottt]

Read this Whottt

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16429


Read this Manumania...

http://www.nba.com/games/20030505/LALSAS/boxscore.html

And there are others I can give you to read....then read that was the team that eliminated us 3 different times in the playoffs...

Then tell me how you can justify shooting 327% and 183%....

You fucking can't...don't even try it. And if Barry does that you guys will rip him...

The way I look at it...you guys are either stupid, or biased...I personally think ya'll should just admit bias..because being stupid is worse.

And then it still comes back to Pop...if Barry sucks so bad then why is he getting minutes instead Big Dogg...

[whottt]

And BTW....I will correct you for being wrong...


Kerr scored 4PPG...this guy coming off a 3 year title run and the greatest 3 PCT shooter in NBA history...he didn't even fucking shoot 30% here...call him a coward.

Mario Elie averaged 8 PPG, to Barry's 6.4....Mario Elie started for nearly the entire season...and had TWO, of the 50 greatest drawing all the attention in the paint.

And if guys say you'd be happier if Barry was jacking more shots, and shooting as badly as those guys were...you are lying....either to yourself or to me...but you are lying. And we damn sure wouldn't be a better team if he were doing it.

Stephen Jackson averaged about 6 more PPG...as a starter, in 10 minutes more per...and Pop not having a decent alternative for the games where he made 7 turnovers in the first half. Barry never gets a chance for redemption for his slow starts...Jack did...

Barry was 1-5 going into the 4th quarter of that Phoenix game and finished 6-10...Similar totals in a variety of our biggest wins...

Everyone says Jack made them when it mattered...Barry doesn't get that chance...when he does? We usually win.

And say whatever you want but if you can't see the difference between the way teams defended Hedo and the way they defend Barry...I can't help you. You don't pay attention to the game.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

if Barry sucks so bad then why is he getting minutes instead Big Dogg...
That is exactly what is on everyone's minds! LOL Why the fuck isn't Big Dog in Barry's place. You can compare anything you want, just because someone was just as BAD as Barry is right now DOES NOT mean Barry is doing any better!! It goes beyond out bitching Whottt. You may think we're biased, and some of us might be (personally I'm not really that interested in the matter), but you CAN'T by any measure of the word, JUSTIFY the way Barry has been playing. A player on any top caliber team CAN NOT be putting up numbers like Game 5 of the Sonics series. ESPECIALLY during the playoffs. Its simply not acceptable. Now ANYONE who's been watching the playoffs wil tell you that Barry might have been all that you say he was in the past, but right now, HE'S LOOKING LIKE AN AMATEUR!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

And BTW....I will correct you for being wrong...


Kerr scored 4PPG...this guy coming off a 3 year title run and the greatest 3 PCT shooter in NBA history...he didn't even fucking shoot 30% here...call him a coward.


Have Barry make 3 clutch threepointers in a row on an EXTREMELY important game IN THE PLAYOFFS and then get back to me on that one.

[whottt]

That is exactly what is on everyone's minds! LOL Why the fuck isn't Big Dog in Barry's place.!


Then you guys aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed...Why are you ripping Barry for being put on the court by Pop? You think he decides? Rip Pop for that and watch the responses you get...

Bigg Dogg is the scorer everyone stupidly thinks career 10 PPG scorer Brent Barry is...If you want him in...rip Pop for it...I mean you guys all think Barry is a coward(again stupidly, he took paycut to come here for the express purpose of winning a ring and has stepped up many times this season when given the chance)...so why rip him for being on the court...Rip Pop for playing the gutless heartless coward...but no, you guys don't do that..because would require a modicum of common sense and linear though capability...something every single Barry hater lacks...as evidenced by them continuing to make the same criticisms without any semblence of statistical backing...and ones that I have destroyed time and time again with absolute totality...I am not the changing and reversing field and throwing around lazy labels like cowardice...with absolutely no evidence to back it up, and substantial evidence to the contrary.

[whottt]

Have Barry make 3 clutch threepointers in a row on an EXTREMELY important game IN THE PLAYOFFS and then get back to me on that one.


Barry's not put on the court to do that. He's Manu's back up remember? And Bowen damn sure isn't coming out of the line up.

But you guys don't see shit like that...I haven't seen any guy on this team make 3 clutch 3 pointers in a row BTW. I must have missed that game...what game was it?

Double standard.

[whottt]

Did you actually click on that link I posted BTW?

You know...the one where Jack was 0-6 with 4 turnovers? I don't think you did...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Then you guys aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed...Why are you ripping Barry for being put on the court by Pop? You think he decides? Rip Pop for that and watch the responses you get...

Bigg Dogg is the scorer everyone stupidly thinks career 10 PPG scorer Brent Barry is...If you want him in...rip Pop for it...I mean you guys all think Barry is a coward(again stupidly, he took paycut to come here for the express purpose of winning a ring and has stepped up many times this season when given the chance)...so why rip him for being on the court...Rip Pop for playing the gutless heartless coward...but no, you guys don't do that..because would require a modicum of common sense and linear though capability...something every single Barry hater lacks...as evidenced by them continuing to make the same criticisms without any semblence of statistical backing...and ones that I have destroyed time and time again with absolute totality...I am not the changing and reversing field and throwing around lazy labels like cowardice...with absolutely no evidence to back it up, and substantial evidence to the contrary.OK, now refute the rest of that post why don't you! I would really, really, REALLY love to see you effectively JUSTIFY Barry's performance in these past 2 series. Better yet, what explanation do you have for game 5 fo the Sonics series! which wasn't just a bad game, IT WAS MONUMENTALLY HORRIBLE! Go ahead and JUSTIFY away.


I haven't seen any guy on this team make 3 clutch 3 pointers in a row BTW. I must have missed that game...what game was it?I might be wrong, but didn't Kerr make three or four 3pt shots in the fourth quarter of a 5th game of the Dallas series in the 2002-2003 playoffs? You compared Barry to Kerr, I'm just using the same comparison. For more info on that, check this article recently posted by Kori
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16426

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Did you actually click on that link I posted BTW?

You know...the one where Jack was 0-6 with 4 turnovers? I don't think you did...
I did, and I responded, but you must have not read the entire post

[Gerryatrics]

Maybe if you stopped focusing on one horrible game and looked at the playoffs as a whole it would be a little easier to justify. I don't think anyone can justify Game 5, but I for one think Barry has helped the Spurs more then he has hurt them in the playoffs so far. But then again, I'm biased.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Maybe if you stopped focusing on one horrible game and looked at the playoffs as a whole it would be a little easier to justify. I don't think anyone can justify Game 5, but I for one think Barry has helped the Spurs more then he has hurt them in the playoffs so far. But then again, I'm biased.
Ok, I see you stating your opinion, now back it up by fact. What has Barry done to merit his minutes these series. I'm not focusing on one game, that was just the tip of the ice berg. His defence is laskluster, and his offense is non-existent, please tell me what it is he's brought to these playoffs, brilliant passing?? uuh... cheerfull demeanor?? what?

[whottt]

I might be wrong, but didn't Kerr make three or four 3pt shots in the fourth quarter of a 5th game of the Dallas series in the 2002-2003 playoffs? You compared Barry to Kerr, I'm just using the same comparison.

Correct me if I am wrong...but wasn't that Kerr's 5 year with the team? What he did he do his first season? It took him 5 years and a two trades to finally adjust...if you are going to use that in your argument...I will concede the point...in 5 years.

How often do you think a guy is going to come off the bench to hit 877% from 3 for a playoff run?


Double standard...and please stop posting FSP articles to back up your point...these are same people I argue with anyway...them writing it in an article doesn't make them any less wrong than when I argue with them in a thread.



Screw this I am going dig up some of the many 2-5 point, 1-6 games Manu had in his first playoffs, and he frequently broke the offense and pissed Pop off...Pop just to had to deal with it because Manu helped the team...maybe then you'll get it.

I peronally think anyone that considers Manu an AS by overlooking his scoring etc...compared to the other two guards...and yet rips Barry for his scoring...is a hypocrite of epic proportions...you talk the talk but you only walk the walk when it suits you.

[Gerryatrics]

Six straight playoff wins as a starter.

Also for lackluster defense, he sure as hell did an incredible job shutting down Lewis in Game 1, and containing both Lewis and Allen in Game 2.

[whottt]

I did, and I responded, but you must have not read the entire post


I read them all...

You ripped Barry for a bad performance and said there was no justification for it...and then you turned around and justified Jack doing it...with 4 turnovers to boot, more than Barry has made in any game this season.

That's called contradicting your self...or being a Barry hater....take your pick.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Screw this I am going dig up some of the many 2-5 point, 1-6 games Manu had in his first playoffs, and he frequently broke the offense and pissed Pop off...Pop just to had to deal with it because Manu helped the team...maybe then you'll get it. See thats what you keep sticking too. You think that because Manu was bad during the first year on this team, its all of a sudden alright for Barry to suck aswell. I DON'T hate Barry Whott, I'm sure next year he could be better after having spent more time with the team. However, FOR WHATEVER REASON IT MIGHT BE, IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT BARRY IS PLAYING HORRIBLY!!!! See, it seems to me that I'M NOT the one that's being biased, its you! I never argued that Manu was good in that first year, although I will argue that Manu did more for the 2002-2003 championship than Barry is doing now. Barry is simply NOT PLAYING WELL!! and in all your posts in this thread, YOU HAVE NEVER ARGUED OTHERWISE, YOU HAVE SIMPLY TRIED TO JUSTIFY IT, AND DOING A BAD JOB AT IT ASWELL.



I peronally think anyone that considers Manu and AS by overlooking his scoring etc...compared to the other two guards...and yet rips Barry for his scoring...is a hypocrite of epic proportions...you talk the talk but you only walk the walk when it suits you.
I don't think you can even compare Manu's game to Barry's. Barry has never had the all-around game that Manu has today, NEVER. What Manu brings to the picture Barry couldn't bring if his life depended on it. Manu is an All-star because of SO MUCH more than his scoring, if you don't think so, that's not our problem, its your missconception. So in the future, if you just can't find a way to excuse precious Barry, don't try and compare him to Manu 'cause its like comparing apples and oranges, they are simply not even in the same ballpark.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Furthermore, Manu's first year was also beset with language issues, style of play adjustments, learning the system (european to NBA), etc etc etc. I really don't think Barry had to go through even a small part of that.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Double standard...and please stop posting FSP articles to back up your point...these are same people I argue with anyway...them writing it in an article doesn't make them any less wrong than when I argue with them in a thread.
The articles aren't from posters in here numbnuts, ofcourse Kori and TimVP posted the articles in the forum, but those articles are from sports journalists.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I read them all...



You ripped Barry for a bad performance and said there was no justification for it...and then you turned around and justified Jack doing it...with 4 turnovers to boot, more than Barry has made in any game this season.



That's called contradicting your self...or being a Barry hater....take your pick.

??? You must be kidding!! Are you comparing Barry's Game 5 performance to what jackson did??! Jackson AT LEAST had 4 rebounds, 3 assists and 1 steal!!!! WHAT DID BARRY HAVE????

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Six straight playoff wins as a starter.

Also for lackluster defense, he sure as hell did an incredible job shutting down Lewis in Game 1, and containing both Lewis and Allen in Game 2.
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND!!??? Thos wins CAN NOT in ANY IMAGINABLE WAY be attributed to BARRY!!! Those were Manu, Nazr, Horry and Tim, and you can stop counting there!! Everyone else just chipped in, and Barry least of all!!

[whottt]

See thats what you keep sticking too. You think that because Manu was bad during the first year on this team, its all of a sudden alright for Barry to suck aswell. I DON'T hate Barry Whott, I'm sure next year he could be better after having spent more time with the team. However, FOR WHATEVER REASON IT MIGHT BE, IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT BARRY IS PLAYING HORRIBLY!!!! See, it seems to me that I'M NOT the one that's being biased, its you! I never argued that Manu was good in that first year, although I will argue that Manu did more for the 2002-2003 championship than Barry is doing now. Barry is simply NOT PLAYING WELL!! and in all your posts in this thread, YOU HAVE NEVER ARGUED OTHERWISE, YOU HAVE SIMPLY TRIED TO JUSTIFY IT, AND DOING A BAD JOB AT IT ASWELL.

Show me he's playing horribly...don't use 1 game either. Hint: You'll have to do better than a POSTIVE +/- ratio subbing behind the league leader in +/-.

I'll tell you right now...you'll have to use something other than stats as well...because the only stat that is low is PPG...




I don't think you can even compare Manu's game to Barry's. Barry has never had the all-around game that Manu has today, NEVER. What Manu brings to the picture Barry couldn't bring if his life depended on it. Manu is an All-star because of SO MUCH more than his scoring, if you don't think so, that's not our problem, its your missconception. So in the future, if you just can't find a way to excuse precious Barry, don't try and compare him to Manu 'cause its like comparing apples and oranges, they are simply not even in the same ballpark.


Care to show me proof of that?

Barry career highs in FG% and 3 are better than Manu...

Hell his fucking career average in those categories is better than all but one of Manu's seasons.




In fact the only thing Manu has done better is score..and his best season is 16 PPG to Barry's 14.

Barry's career high in rebounds is 15 fucking rebounds...

Barry's career high in assists is 16 fucking assists...

His career best board and PPG totals are over 5...both better than Manu's best.


So tell me...who is backing their side up WITH FACT and who isn't?

If you are gonna say that shit back it up...you haven't got a fucking statistical leg to stand on.

Incidentally...I agree with you that Manu is the far better player...stats be damned...

But I'd argue that he is as skilled all around as Barry...He's clearly a better scorer and defender and is much more agressive...other than that...there is ample room for debate. Manu is definitely not as good of a passer as Barry...and Manu is a great passer.

But I also contend Barry is a hell of a lot fucking better than SpursFans give him credit for being...that's my point...that's why I am ripping some of my all time favorite players(Kerr, Jack, Manu, and Elie) to make this point...

You guys are full of shit and have a double standard of epic proportions against this guy. And you fucking contradict your self horribly in an attempt to justify your hate.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Show me he's playing horribly...don't use 1 game either. Hint: You'll have to do better than a POSTIVE +/- ratio subbing behind the league leader in +/-.

I'll tell you right now...you'll have to use something other than stats as well...because the only stat that is low is PPG...
The burden of proof IS NOT ON ME to prove he's sucked in the playoffs, THAT'S BEEN OBVIOUS!!



Care to show me proof of that?

Barry career highs in FG% and 3 are better than Manu...

Hell his fucking career average in those categories is better than all but one of Manu's seasons.


His career rebounding and assist totals are better than Manu's...

His career averages in those categories are better than Manu's...

In fact the only thing Manu has done better is score..

Barry's career high in rebounds is 15 fucking rebounds...

Barry's career high in assists is 16 fucking assists...

His career best board and PPG totals are over 5...both better than Manu's best.


So tell me...who is backing their side up WITH FACT and who isn't?

If you are gonna say that shit back it up...you haven't got a fucking statistical leg to stand on.

Incidentally...I agree with you that Manu is the far better player...stats be damned...

But I'd argue that he is as skilled all around as Barry...He's clearly a better scorer and defender...other than that...there is ample room for debate.
This is really interesting, seeing as though your whole "Barry doesn't suck" arguments have all rested on the fact that Barry doesn't play WITH MANU, the player who makes everyone better, and yet you seem intent to show that Barry is as skilled as Manu. You talk about contradiction, and then you come up with "But I'd argue that he is as skilled all around as Barry...He's clearly a better scorer and defender".

Furthermore, what the fuck does career highs have to do with anything!! Wade's carreer highs in assists are also lower than Barry's, does that mean, Barry is one ounce the player that Wade is?, NO!!! Wade's rebound high is 8, does that mean Barry is a more prolific rebounder?? NOO!!!! Manu is a more proffcient scorer and a better defender, not only that, but he MAKES EVERYONE HE PLAYS WITH BETTER, WHILE ON BARRYS CASE, HE NEEDS SOMEONE TO MAKE HIM BETTER: IN THIS CASE MANU!!

You want to know what I think, I think you're just talking out of your ass so that you don't look like one for having supported someone who is simply not as good as he was made out to be. NO AMOUNT OF BITCHING AND STUBORN ARGUMENTS WILL CHANGE THE FACT THAT BARRY HAS STUNK THESE PLAYOFFS, PERIOD!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Again, I have never said Barry is a horrible basketball player. I NEVER SAID THAT. I said he has sucked in these playoffs. YOU TURNED IT INTO A CARREER THING. You have still to show a speck of a decent argument proving that Barry has lived up to the moment, and still you insist in beating around the bush as they say! I see you will never admit defeat, which in some cases is a good thing, but can also be detrimental. I have yet to see you completely man up to a misconception you might have had, there's always a "BUT" in all your admitions. I'd hate to see your solid reputation as a poster be tarnished by stuborn necesity to always be right.

[MI21]

Whattt are you getting out of this Whottt?

Is Brent giving you a billion dollars to defend him?

I don't understand, you must be sick of arguing the same fucking points over and over, let it go already.

[whottt]

Whattt are you getting out of this Whottt?

You tell me?

What do the haters get out of it?



Is Brent giving you a billion dollars to defend him?

No.


I don't understand, you must be sick of arguing the same fucking points over and over, let it go already.


I am beyond sick of arguing about this...and that's a first for me, in fact I've even said several times I am not going to argue about it anymore if people aren't making valid criticisms...but I am not tired of arguing about it because I think I am wrong...I am tired of arguing about it because people continue to throw lame labels around and don't back it up in anything except a contradictory, biased, and self ass kicking manner.


No one forces me to defend Barry...and I have changed my postion on something before...I don't have a reason to change my postion.

And if he does actually choke...I will most likely do so.


The funny thing is that it's an unwinnable battle...Barry is not the type of player that is going to do what the haters want him to do to shut them up, he never has been...and most likely even if he did do it, they will discount it like they do every other time...

I suppose if we win the title that might shut people about it...alas...we aren't going to win a title this season, I'll be thrilled to be wrong because I never get suprised on something like this...this is the worst road team in the Pop era, and Seattle and Denver are teams we should have beaten...even if it does make it past Phoenix....Detroit will destroy us with the offensive tendencies we have shown...You are gonna have to be able to hit those evil jumpers to beat Detroit.


But instead of telling me to let it go...why don't you look and see that I get called out in nearly every Barry thread and if I fail to respond I get called a pussy blah blah etc.....tell them to let it go why don't you.

[picnroll]

When Barry was acquired he was viewed by nearly all of us as a major addition, a major scoring weapon coming off the bench. Many of us had him penciled in as the sixth man of the year award winner. Has he fulfilled anywhere close to those promises or should we be just content with someone coming off the bench, occupying space, doing maybe a tiny bit positive or at least not doing too much negative?

Here is a list of playoff team's main PG, SG or SF coming off the bench:
Miller, Gordon, Davis, Dooling, Best, Dixon, Stackhouse, Boykins, James, Evans, Daniels, Posey, Hunter, Korver, Hunter and Barry.

Statistically Barry has played the sixth most minutes per game at 25.5, averaged the twelfth most points at 6.0 , shot the eigth best percentage at .438, seventh best in assists,and eigth in assists to turnovers. Considering he was brought in primarily as a scorer he has been a failure relative to other smalls off the bench amongst the playoff teams.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I suppose if we win the title that might shut people about it...alas...we aren't going to win a title this season, I'll be thrilled to be wrong because I never get suprised on something like this...this is the worst road team in the Pop era, and Seattle and Denver are teams we should have beaten...even if it does make it past Phoenix....Detroit will destroy us with the offensive tendencies we have shown...You are gonna have to be able to hit those evil jumpers to beat Detroit.No, it won't shut people up, not if Barry keeps playing the same shity basketball he's been playing throughout the playoffs. THAT'S WHAT YOU DON'T GET!! Right now, Barry has been as influential in the past 2 series as the freakin Coyote. If he turns around and gives us a decent performance for the rest of this post-season then THAT will shut people up. Its not entirely imposible you know, Barry starting to play some quality bball, "it could happen". You're so intent in labeling everyone who criticizes precious Barry as a hater, that you don't stop and realize that some of us might be right. Barry is not horrible, he's just been horrible the past 3 weeks. No reason why he can't change that around, we're just hoping he WILL. Personally, I have faith Barry will have a good series against the Suns.