Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

[redzero]

Okay, what I have learned so far is that Sarah Palin maintains a terrorist cell of mentally unstable Communist Nazi Anarchists tea bagger leftist potheads who are mentally unstable.

Am i right so far?

Changed since reports are now calling the guy a pothead.

[Winehole23]

Tv that is who.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/FISH_BlessYou-500.jpg

[boutons_deux]

Right-wingers here using the old "it was just a rotten apple" defense, it is not the whole Repug/tea party/conservative delegitimizers/elmininationists barrel that is rotten.

American Civilization is such a great example to the planet.

[boutons_deux]

The shooter was a devotee of St Ronnie "Govt Is The Problem"

Exclusive: Loughner Friend Explains Alleged Gunman's Grudge Against Giffords

http://motherjones.com/print/94271

[Giuseppe]

The shooter was a devotee of St Ronnie "Govt Is The Problem"

Exclusive: Loughner Friend Explains Alleged Gunman's Grudge Against Giffords

http://motherjones.com/print/94271

Well, pish-tosh, if they say it--it's gotta be true.

[Giuseppe]

fucking simple minded people

nazi=right wing nut.


commie=left wing nut.


Obama can't be both......get a fucking clue!:rolleyes

Please.

Hussein Obozo is a comprehensive failure.

[scott]

Loughner would occasionally mention Giffords, according to Tierney: "It wasn't a day-in, day-out thing, but maybe once in a while, if Giffords did something that was ridiculous or passed some stupid law or did something stupid, he related that to people. But the thing I remember most is just that question. I don't remember him stalking her or anything." Tierney notes that Loughner did not display any specific political or ideological bent: "It wasn't like he was in a certain party or went to rallies...It's not like he'd go on political rants." But Loughner did, according to Tierney, believe that government is "fucking us over." He never heard Loughner vent about about the perils of "currency," as Loughner did on one YouTube video he created.

[scott]

As Loughner and Tierney grew closer, Tierney got used to spending the first ten minutes or so of every day together arguing with Loughner's "nihilist" view of the world. "By the time he was 19 or 20, he was really fascinated with semantics and how the world is really nothing—illusion," Tierney says. Once, Tierney recalls, Loughner told him, "I'm pretty sure I've come to the conclusion that words mean nothing." Loughner would also tell Tierney and his friends that life "means nothing," and they'd reply, "If it means nothing, what you're saying means nothing." Other times, Tierney says, Loughner acted like any teen: "We'd go to concerts, play music, get into trouble."

Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

[scott]

A really good article/interview, I suggest all read it. It does a lot to dispell some of the myths theories floating around.

Apparently Loughner is not an anti-semite (he's half Jewish himself, and listed Mein Kampf as a favorite book simply to push buttons), he wasn't a pot-head (he had gone completely free of tobacco and pot in 2008), and wasn't of any particular ideology (he was a nihilist).

Giffords, quite contrary to Wild Cobra's stupid hypothesizing (uh, I mean "open mindedness"), was clearly the target and Loughner had a long obsession with her.


"He fucks things up to fuck shit up, there's no rhyme or reason, he wants to watch the world burn. He probably wanted to take everyone out of their monotonous lives: 'Another Saturday, going to go get groceries'—to take people out of these norms that he thought society had trapped us in."

That's a frightening post. I wouldn't say this guy was crazy, but he was definitely operating at another plane of consciousness - and it fucked with his head.

The article mentioned Loughner and Tierney attended a The Mars Volta concert together (without a doubt my favorite band). TMV is a prog-rock band, very psychedelic with cryptic lyrics that at times appear non-sensical by allude to an altered (not drugs per se, just altered) view of reality. His interest in the band probably stemmed from those lyrics.

This is the makings of a groundbreaking psychlogical case study. An absolute tragedy about the 6 dead and 14 injured who were caught in the crossfire of his twisted mind.

[BlairForceDejuan]

Chump. Why play your little game with something that is common sense. Watch t.v. brah. Every single politician and former SS that has been interviewed this past weekend has said death threats are a constant reality.

In our society, only a few types of people actually keep up with politics. Concerned citizen, intelligent person, crazy loon. Out of those, your cc and crazy loon will care enough to contact their politician. Out of those two, you know the crazy loon is burning the pencil lead and postage stamps.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Please.

Hussein Obozo is a comprehensive failure.

wow, did you think of that yourself?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Was it some random poster or Kos/a regular author on the site?

Dont really know the history of the author but it was an article in the The Daily Kos.

That was scrubbed.
Two days before the Tucson incident.

Not that that I'm saying this was connected.....


And it was an article not a comment.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Oh, and I commend you Lngrr for being the only one to respond to that link I posted. I'm not using that article as a "gotcha. This is what caused it" kinda thing. It's just stupid. This and the Palin thing. Anyone that believes either one is the slightest bit responsible is pretty dumb IMHO. Theres simply crazy people in the world. The Unabomber graduated from Harvard. Did anyone blame universities for his stupidity?..... Politicians INCLUDING our President spew this rhetoric and vitriol day in and day out on tv and across the internets. Now it's the latest buzz word on tv and is making eveyone "come together". This is all a charade. Just people gaining votes. continuing to care about themselves(the elected officials) and no one else.

[Giuseppe]

If we can pooh-pooh the Ft. Hood Massacre at the decree of Hussein Obozo we can pooh this thing.

[Giuseppe]

Politicians INCLUDING our President spew this rhetoric and vitriol day in and day out on tv and across the internets. Now it's the latest buzz word on tv and is making eveyone "come together". This is all a charade. Just people gaining votes. continuing to care about themselves(the elected officials) and no one else.

Testify, Viva, testify!

[boutons_deux]

"INCLUDING our President spew this rhetoric and vitriol"

YOU LIE!

There is no equivalence from the center and libs that matches the hate/fear/lie mongering from the right.

[clambake]

this thread is getting closer and closer to protecting "B" girl, again.

[George Gervin's Afro]

If we can pooh-pooh the Ft. Hood Massacre at the decree of Hussein Obozo we can pooh this thing.

so you have no problem with mass killings.. I assume you are a pro lifer correct?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

"INCLUDING our President spew this rhetoric and vitriol"

YOU LIE!

There is no equivalence from the center and libs that matches the hate/fear/lie mongering from the right.

Well I'm on my phone so it's a bit cumbersome to post links and youtubes but the first one that comes to mind is frank Grayson. He was one idiot that played one to a T. As soon as I get to a PC I'll get you on task.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

this thread is getting closer and closer to protecting "B" girl, again.

Ha. It started as B girl, clammy. I learned me lesson :toast

[George Gervin's Afro]

Wow, I still see the ignorant right wingers are trying to tell everyone the left is as bad as the right.... which side often talks of revoluton and the need to shed blood if necessary... secede from the union, take our country back from communists and radicals..by any means necessary...

[clambake]

Ha. It started as B girl, clammy. I learned me lesson :toast

:lol

[DarrinS]

The killer's youtube ramblings.


http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10


Strangely, no videos about Obamacare, Tea Party, etc.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

If we can pooh-pooh the Ft. Hood Massacre at the decree of Hussein Obozo we can pooh this thing.

Define pooh pooh.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

:lol

And I said I was wrong in that thread within a few hours, fwiw.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I have so many vids I can link to make a few people eat there words on here.

[clambake]

I have so many vids I can link to make a few people eat there words on here.

what people, and words will they be eating?

[George Gervin's Afro]

what people, and words will they be eating?

few people

[panic giraffe]

The killer's youtube ramblings.


http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10


Strangely, no videos about Obamacare, Tea Party, etc.

lol class it up

more like cap it up

amirite?

but seeing this talk of one world currency etc, makes me think this guy is so far right that it's causing the right to blur their view of him.
that right there is run of the mill barely brain functional PAULite talking there.
can we get a couple units over to parker2112 house before he jumps the shark as well?

[TeyshaBlue]

Wow, I still see the ignorant right wingers are trying to tell everyone the left is as bad as the right.... which side often talks of revoluton and the need to shed blood if necessary... secede from the union, take our country back from communists and radicals..by any means necessary...

You do realize that this is an almost completely subjective exercise, right?

What I might think is reprehensible coming from the enlightened progressives you would most likely deem as acceptable and vice versa.

But hey, pull that boutons hat on tighter.:lol

[DarrinS]

lol class it up

more like cap it up

amirite?

but seeing this talk of one world currency etc, makes me think this guy is so far right that it's causing the right to blur their view of him.
that right there is run of the mill barely brain functional PAULite talking there.
can we get a couple units over to parker2112 house before he jumps the shark as well?



Did you notice his favorite books:

Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.


Obviously a hard-core right winger. :rolleyes

This guy is just a crazy fuck.

But keep being classy and trying to blame this shit on talk radio, Palin, tea party, etc.


Stupid fucks.

[Giuseppe]

so you have no problem with mass killings

I did until Hussein Obama pooh pooh'ed The Ft. Hood mass killing. O seemed to make it less a problem when he was done pooh poohing it.

[TeyshaBlue]

Post #298 I see we got in the obligatory Hitler/nazi reference.

Kinda late tho don't you think? :lol

[BlairForceDejuan]

We should take Rush, Beck, and Billy O off the airwaves and put them in college classrooms tbh

[Giuseppe]

We should take Rush, Beck, and Billy O off the airwaves and put them in college classrooms tbh

Well, pish-posh, academia never lies.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I did until Hussein Obama pooh pooh'ed The Ft. Hood mass killing. O seemed to make it less a problem when he was done pooh poohing it.

I don't remember Obama ignoring the FT Hood massacre... what are you talking about?

[clambake]

lol at darrin trying to subtract this guys agenda.

[TeyshaBlue]

We should take Rush, Beck, and Billy O off the airwaves and put them in college classrooms tbh

Holy fuck. They wouldn't last 10 minutes in a classroom.:lmao

[DarrinS]

lol at darrin trying to subtract this guys agenda.

Where's his agenda?

[CuckingFunt]

Did you notice his favorite books:

Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.


Obviously a hard-core right winger. :rolleyes

This guy is just a crazy fuck.

But keep being classy and trying to blame this shit on talk radio, Palin, tea party, etc.


Stupid fucks.

More than anything, that list of books looks to me like the kind of thing someone would post as a desperate attempt to appear super literate. Too much of a greatest hits list to be real.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You do realize that this is an almost completely subjective exercise, right?

What I might think is reprehensible coming from the enlightened progressives you would most likely deem as acceptable and vice versa.

But hey, pull that boutons hat on tighter.:lol

really? Thanks for enlightening us..your faux intelligence is welcomed on this board

[clambake]

Where's his agenda?

in the act, you stupid fuck. don't take on anything complex.

[DarrinS]

More than anything, that list of books looks to me like the kind of thing someone would post as a desperate attempt to appear super literate. Too much of a greatest hits list to be real.


Fair enough. I just haven't read anything about this guy that suggests anything other than he's just a mentally unstable person who was, for whatever reason, obsessed with this congresswoman.

[DarrinS]

in the act, you stupid fuck. don't take on anything complex.

You're an idiot.

If the congresswoman had an (R.) next to her name, I suppose the shooter would be a left-wing extremist, motivated by Ed Shultz and MoveOn.org.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Fair enough. I just haven't read anything about this guy that suggests anything other than he's just a mentally unstable person who was, for whatever reason, obsessed with this congresswoman.

I actually agree with you on this one..however I do believe that the trash talking the right wing is a bit over board.. and to a mentally unstable person it could certainly spark them to do something stupid..

[DarrinS]

I actually agree with you on this one..however I do believe that the trash talking the right wing is a bit over board.. and to a mentally unstable person it could certainly spark them to do something stupid..



So could watching Keith Olbermann.

Where's the evidence that this guy listened to Rush, Beck, and Hannity every day?

[clambake]

You're an idiot.

If the congresswoman had an (R.) next to her name, I suppose the shooter would be a left-wing extremist, motivated by Ed Shultz and MoveOn.org.

you are the dumbest piece of shit on this forum.

your "if" in your statement is meaningless......and i know the perfect girl for you. lol

[panic giraffe]

Did you notice his favorite books:

Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.


Obviously a hard-core right winger. :rolleyes

This guy is just a crazy fuck.

But keep being classy and trying to blame this shit on talk radio, Palin, tea party, etc.


Stupid fucks.

so he has the literary taste of middle school required reading and you're willing to over look his own youtube acct as proof that the guy is a far right nutjob?

that doesn't make sense.

[DarrinS]

so he has the literary taste of middle school required reading and you're willing to over look his own youtube acct as proof that the guy is a far right nutjob?

that doesn't make sense.


huh?

[DarrinS]

you are the dumbest piece of shit on this forum.

your "if" in your statement is meaningless......and i know the perfect girl for you. lol

http://yesyesss.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/shift_key.jpg

[Giuseppe]

OBAMA FLASHBACK: 'If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun'... (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/14/obama-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun/)

Barry Obama

[panic giraffe]

huh?


you want to call him crazy based on reading whats required of a 8th grader.

if anything you should call his "new currency" ron paul talk crazy.

[TeyshaBlue]

really? Thanks for enlightening us..your faux intelligence is welcomed on this board

meh. Thanks for your enlightened response.

[DarrinS]

you want to call him crazy based on reading whats required of a 8th grader.

if anything you should call his "new currency" ron paul talk crazy.


Read the statements of his teachers and classmates and get back to me.

[DarrinS]

in the act, you stupid fuck. don't take on anything complex.



you are the dumbest piece of shit on this forum.

your "if" in your statement is meaningless......and i know the perfect girl for you. lol



Such anger and vitriol. :lol

[clambake]

Such anger and vitriol. :lol

i wouldn't have suggested the perfect mate for you if this were true.

[clambake]

hey darrin, her name is ashley todd.

i don't have her phone number or address. you can get that from wild cobra.

[Spurminator]

If the congresswoman had an (R.) next to her name, I suppose the shooter would be a left-wing extremist, motivated by Ed Shultz and MoveOn.org.

Do you mean in reality, or in yours and Yonivore's threads on the subject? Because I don't think it's a stretch to believe you both would be ALL OVER the partisan angle if the congresswoman were Republican. Sorry.

Anyway, I agree that labeling this guy for partisan brownie points is ridiculous. As is the endless haughty bloviating about the broad societal ills that caused the shooting.

There's really not a whole lot to learn here. It wasn't about crosshairs or books or vitriol in the media or Obamacare or religion or gun control, it's about a fucking nutjob going psycho.

Party cheerleading, 24-hour news and political rage certainly have consequences but a lone nihilistic idiot going on a shooting rampage is the least of those. Sometimes tragedy can't be conveniently explained away, nor prevented.

[TeyshaBlue]

Do you mean in reality, or in yours and Yonivore's threads on the subject? Because I don't think it's a stretch to believe you both would be ALL OVER the partisan angle if the congresswoman were Republican. Sorry.

Anyway, I agree that labeling this guy for partisan brownie points is ridiculous. As is the endless haughty bloviating about the broad societal ills that caused the shooting.

There's really not a whole lot to learn here. It wasn't about crosshairs or books or vitriol in the media or Obamacare or religion, it's about a fucking nutjob going psycho.

Party cheerleading, 24-hour news and political rage certainly have consequences but a lone nihilistic idiot going on a shooting rampage is the least of those. Sometimes tragedy can't be conveniently explained away, nor prevented.

^^^^^This^^^^^^

[Giuseppe]

Read the statements of his teachers and classmates and get back to me.

Well, pish-posh, they'd certainly never lie.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

OBAMA FLASHBACK: 'If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun'... (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/14/obama-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun/)

Barry Obama

I hope Barry corrects that bit of misspokeness.

[BlairForceDejuan]

Purposefully misrepresenting the AZ immigration law with such talk of doing your grandmamma wrong at the ice cream shop could certainly be seen as riling up potential threats to our gracious and selfless public servants.

amidoingitrite?

[MannyIsGod]

I haven't caught up in the thread, but I do want to post right now and say that it really is irrelevant which side does the irresponsible rhetoric more. There should really be a public backlash against it at all times.

Honestly, it speaks to us as a society that this shit goes down to begin with.

[DarrinS]

Do you mean in reality, or in yours and Yonivore's threads on the subject? Because I don't think it's a stretch to believe you both would be ALL OVER the partisan angle if the congresswoman were Republican. Sorry.


If you say so.

[Winehole23]

I hope Barry corrects that bit of misspokeness.For what, comparing politics to a street brawl, or alluding to guns and knives figuratively?

[MannyIsGod]

lol class it up

more like cap it up

amirite?

but seeing this talk of one world currency etc, makes me think this guy is so far right that it's causing the right to blur their view of him.
that right there is run of the mill barely brain functional PAULite talking there.
can we get a couple units over to parker2112 house before he jumps the shark as well?

See the other thread in this forum.

:lmao

[clambake]

I haven't caught up in the thread, but I do want to post right now and say that it really is irrelevant which side does the irresponsible rhetoric more. There should really be a public backlash against it at all times.

Honestly, it speaks to us as a society that this shit goes down to begin with.


please keep the water hose away from this dog fight.

[DarrinS]

lol Krugman

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

[MannyIsGod]

Do you mean in reality, or in yours and Yonivore's threads on the subject? Because I don't think it's a stretch to believe you both would be ALL OVER the partisan angle if the congresswoman were Republican. Sorry.

Anyway, I agree that labeling this guy for partisan brownie points is ridiculous. As is the endless haughty bloviating about the broad societal ills that caused the shooting.

There's really not a whole lot to learn here. It wasn't about crosshairs or books or vitriol in the media or Obamacare or religion or gun control, it's about a fucking nutjob going psycho.

Party cheerleading, 24-hour news and political rage certainly have consequences but a lone nihilistic idiot going on a shooting rampage is the least of those. Sometimes tragedy can't be conveniently explained away, nor prevented.


I just disagree with this completely.

The anti government movement associated with the tea party is a powder keg. There is so much anger and resentment on the fringes of this group I think it has to be considered when making statements that they look into.

Antigovernment right wingers aren't exactly new to the terrorist game. Timothy McVeigh, Nichols, and Kazynski all come to mind as extreme anarchist or antigovernment nut jobs who have carried out terrorism here. Those are just the big names.

Its too easy to just write him off as a nut job and to wipe everyone's hands clean of things but I promise you there are events and situations that occurred that molded him to the current situation he's in.

I think the responsible thing to do is to ask whether or not our actions as a society contributed to him doing what he did and whether or not our actions promote these events in any way. Its too damn easy to just blow it off.

[MannyIsGod]

Also, I don't know how anyone can look at that reading list and see left wing. The only socialist piece on there the communist manifesto and given the rest of the list I could see him reading it out of a dislike for communism.

If you wanted to give someone a reading list to form a foundation of libertarianism or anarchocapitalism that is a damn good list to start from. You give them the foundation for communism then you tear it apart with Ayn Rand, George Orwell, Ray Bradbury, and Aldous Huxley.

[Crookshanks]

Give it up Manny - stop with the blaming. The guy is a nut job - plain and simple. This is not the fault of the Tea Party. Don't you have some weather to go study?

[BlairForceDejuan]

I like how society is responsible, meanwhile we haven't heard one ounce of information on his parents.

[CosmicCowboy]

Its too easy to just write him off as a nut job and to wipe everyone's hands clean of things but I promise you there are events and situations that occurred that molded him to the current situation he's in.

I think the responsible thing to do is to ask whether or not our actions as a society contributed to him doing what he did and whether or not our actions promote these events in any way. Its too damn easy to just blow it off.

Manny, sometimes it really is that simple. The guy sounds bat shit crazy.

We get some pretty damn inflammatory rhetoric going in here too...If Parker or Boutons flip out and go postal is it really our fault?

[Crookshanks]

I like how society is responsible, meanwhile we haven't heard one ounce of information on his parents.

And we haven't heard one word from the shooter himself. The sheriff said he hasn't said anything and is not being cooperative. People are trying to piece together a profile from his friends and acquaintences.

[DarrinS]

Give it up Manny - stop with the blaming. The guy is a nut job - plain and simple. This is not the fault of the Tea Party. Don't you have some weather to go study?

No shit

[DarrinS]

I just disagree with this completely.

The anti government movement associated with the tea party is a powder keg. There is so much anger and resentment on the fringes of this group I think it has to be considered when making statements that they look into.

Antigovernment right wingers aren't exactly new to the terrorist game. Timothy McVeigh, Nichols, and Kazynski all come to mind as extreme anarchist or antigovernment nut jobs who have carried out terrorism here. Those are just the big names.

Its too easy to just write him off as a nut job and to wipe everyone's hands clean of things but I promise you there are events and situations that occurred that molded him to the current situation he's in.

I think the responsible thing to do is to ask whether or not our actions as a society contributed to him doing what he did and whether or not our actions promote these events in any way. Its too damn easy to just blow it off.


No it's not. It's an irresponsible, knee-jerk reaction.


LOL @ tea party is a powder keg. What a fuckin drama queen.

[clambake]

No it's not. It's an irresponsible, knee-jerk reaction.


LOL @ tea party is a powder keg. What a fuckin drama queen.

ashley agrees with you. lol

[ChumpDumper]

Chump. Why play your little game with something that is common sense. Watch t.v. brah. Every single politician and former SS that has been interviewed this past weekend has said death threats are a constant reality.So how many have been interviewed?

How does that number compare to the total number of politicians in the US?

You have too much faith in personal anecdote and TV.

lol common sense. If you had any common sense, it would tell you the the media can distort perception during a big news event. Given your breathless endorsement of the perception TV has given you, I can certainly believe you don't have any.

[TeyshaBlue]

I just disagree with this completely.

The anti government movement associated with the tea party is a powder keg. There is so much anger and resentment on the fringes of this group I think it has to be considered when making statements that they look into.

Antigovernment right wingers aren't exactly new to the terrorist game. Timothy McVeigh, Nichols, and Kazynski all come to mind as extreme anarchist or antigovernment nut jobs who have carried out terrorism here. Those are just the big names.

Its too easy to just write him off as a nut job and to wipe everyone's hands clean of things but I promise you there are events and situations that occurred that molded him to the current situation he's in.

I think the responsible thing to do is to ask whether or not our actions as a society contributed to him doing what he did and whether or not our actions promote these events in any way. Its too damn easy to just blow it off.
I have to disagree here, Manny. The names you mentioned had no affiliation with the Tea Party...hell, Kazynski had no affiliation with reality. There may very well be events and situations that molded the shooter into the nutbar that he is, but it's a giant step to attribute that to the Tea Party. Trying to apply logic and sensibility to situations that are not conscripts of same, can lead to some pretty unhealthy conclusions. If the shooter and the examples you set forth shared a distrust or even a hatred, which is pretty tough to quantify, of the Federal gov, well, look out your window. You'll see many that share that distrust. Start down that path and you'll be led to what actions should be taken to prevent said persons from going off on a killing spree. Welcome to McCarthyism 2.0.
The guy was a solo nutbar....not a left nor a right. Just a nutbar. Blue's Clues could've set the guy off.

[boutons_deux]

Nobody is solo nutbar.

These psychotic people don't live in perfectly deaf isolation from society, deaf to the right-wing, murderous guns-solve-everything/Don't-Tread-On-Me crap.

[Spurminator]

I think the responsible thing to do is to ask whether or not our actions as a society contributed to him doing what he did and whether or not our actions promote these events in any way.

I think it's a natural thing to do, but in this instance all we're doing is supporting our own perceptions of society's problems. Believe me, the first thing I thought when I heard about this was "Damn cable news!" but it's just not that simple in this case.

I think the fact that so many people jumped to conclusions about how a picture posted on a Sarah Palin website may have influenced this attack reveals more about society's problems, and the way we discuss this country's issues, than the shooting itself.

[RandomGuy]

"If we don't clean up corruption in the judiciary, in the White House, citizens of this country will have no trust in the system and will take justice in their own hands. This is dangerous," she wrote.

... on being denied a hearing in front of the SCOTUS for her suit, deemed "frivolous" by a lower court.

Tacky.


(edit)

If anyone can tell me how one would remove a sitting president from office by "taking justice into their own hands", that person wins a cookie.

And by cookie, I mean a visit from the Secret Service.

[George Gervin's Afro]

... on being denied a hearing in front of the SCOTUS for her suit, deemed "frivolous" by a lower court.

Tacky.

How long before a SC Justice goes down? I am betting it will be within the next year or so... potentially this fall when the Obamacare case gets to the SC..

[CosmicCowboy]

How long before a SC Justice goes down? I am betting it will be within the next year or so... potentially this fall when the Obamacare case gets to the SC..

Uhhhh....Given the current makeup of the court and the current President it would logically be a lefty doing the shooting if that happened...

[Glenn Holland]

fucking wild ass hardcore conservatives.
once again, ruining shit.

[MannyIsGod]

I have to disagree here, Manny. The names you mentioned had no affiliation with the Tea Party...hell, Kazynski had no affiliation with reality. There may very well be events and situations that molded the shooter into the nutbar that he is, but it's a giant step to attribute that to the Tea Party. Trying to apply logic and sensibility to situations that are not conscripts of same, can lead to some pretty unhealthy conclusions. If the shooter and the examples you set forth shared a distrust or even a hatred, which is pretty tough to quantify, of the Federal gov, well, look out your window. You'll see many that share that distrust. Start down that path and you'll be led to what actions should be taken to prevent said persons from going off on a killing spree. Welcome to McCarthyism 2.0.
The guy was a solo nutbar....not a left nor a right. Just a nutbar. Blue's Clues could've set the guy off.

I disagree with that completely. There are reasons for everything that happens in this world and they are never "just because". Whether or not he was mentally ill and operated on a different level of reality is up for debate and is a valid reason to consider but that doesn't mean we should just simply write things off without even asking "why".

There's definitely a lot of people who don't like the government in this country and around the world, Teysha. But to characterize the actions of someone who is so paranoid or angry they're willing to commit violence in the same vein is a complete mistake. I don't like the government in many ways. I get frustrated. Yet I'm not out there paranoid to the point to where I see huge conspiracies and I'm not willing to step outside of the electoral system because while I find it frustrating I think it works. The people who are on the fringe here are dangerous because they hold options like this available.

Thats not McCarthyism. Its not a singling out of people who are against government intervention, but rather a singling out of people who's feelings against the government are to the point they lead to violence.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Uhhhh....Given the current makeup of the court and the current President it would logically be a lefty doing the shooting if that happened...

It may be..

[MannyIsGod]

No it's not. It's an irresponsible, knee-jerk reaction.


LOL @ tea party is a powder keg. What a fuckin drama queen.

You add so much depth and insight into this situation, Darrin. If you write lines of code the way you write posts it must take you days to come up with the simplest of code.

[MannyIsGod]

Nobody is solo nutbar.


Indeed. These people don't form in vacuums.

[TeyshaBlue]

I disagree with that completely. There are reasons for everything that happens in this world and they are never "just because". Whether or not he was mentally ill and operated on a different level of reality is up for debate and is a valid reason to consider but that doesn't mean we should just simply write things off without even asking "why".

There's definitely a lot of people who don't like the government in this country and around the world, Teysha. But to characterize the actions of someone who is so paranoid or angry they're willing to commit violence in the same vein is a complete mistake. I don't like the government in many ways. I get frustrated. Yet I'm not out there paranoid to the point to where I see huge conspiracies and I'm not willing to step outside of the electoral system because while I find it frustrating I think it works. The people who are on the fringe here are dangerous because they hold options like this available.

Thats not McCarthyism. Its not a singling out of people who are against government intervention, but rather a singling out of people who's feelings against the government are to the point they lead to violence.

I'm not saying there was no reason for his actions, Manny. Of course there were. But I doubt they lie in a cause and effect grid for us to dissect. I might go halfway with you tho and posit that there are people who have severe character flaws that make them susceptible to emotional influences.
But, how do you quantify a person's feelings? How do we know they are going to commit a violent crime? When you try to systematically address these questions, then I fear the outcome of the Fed's efforts. The Patriot Act is one such clusterfuck.

[TeyshaBlue]

Nobody is solo nutbar.

These psychotic people don't live in perfectly deaf isolation from society, deaf to the right-wing, murderous guns-solve-everything/Don't-Tread-On-Me crap.

Name 2 friends of Ted Kazynski. He's the poster child for solo nutbars everywhere.

[DarrinS]

I disagree with that completely. There are reasons for everything that happens in this world and they are never "just because". Whether or not he was mentally ill and operated on a different level of reality is up for debate and is a valid reason to consider but that doesn't mean we should just simply write things off without even asking "why".


It's weird how the left didn't want to jump to any conclusions about Major Hassan's motives (even with a large amt of evidence) , but are more than willing to attribute conservative motives to this nutbag. I still can't find any evidence that this guy is some right-wing kook.

[TeyshaBlue]

Indeed. These people don't form in vacuums.

Those people are vacuums.

[CosmicCowboy]

The Devil made him do it...

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/01/10/alg_loughner_shrine-exclusive.jpg

A sinister shrine reveals a chilling occult dimension in the mind of the deranged gunman accused of shooting a member of Congress and 19 others.

Hidden within a camouflage tent behind Jared Lee Loughner's home sits an alarming altar with a skull sitting atop a pot filled with shriveled oranges.

A row of ceremonial candles and a bag of potting soil lay nearby, photos reveal.

Experts on Sunday said the elements are featured in the ceremonies of a number of occult groups.

Investigators have focused on Loughner's online anti-government ramblings as the chief motivation for the shooting Saturday of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.).

The discovery of the shrine raises the possibility that Loughner, 22, may have been driven by other forces

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_chilling_shrine_in_madmans_yard.html#ixzz1AfEW6 08o

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not saying there was no reason for his actions, Manny. Of course there were. But I doubt they lie in a cause and effect grid for us to dissect. I might go halfway with you tho and posit that there are people who have severe character flaws that make them susceptible to emotional influences.
But, how do you quantify a person's feelings? How do we know they are going to commit a violent crime? When you try to systematically address these questions, then I fear the outcome of the Fed's efforts. The Patriot Act is one such clusterfuck.

It doesn't have to be some government thought police. Thats my point. I'm talking about fostering an environment of hatred in politics today that provides a breeding ground for actions like this.

You can't sit there and tell me with a straight face that hyperbolic rhetoric comparing our current government to Nazi Germany or a Stalinist government don't add to that.

Even if this act wasn't directly related to any of that, I have to wonder what the hell it would take for politicians to contemplate the ramifications of what they say outside of electoral gains.

[MannyIsGod]

It's weird how the left didn't want to jump to any conclusions about Major Hassan's motives (even with a large amt of evidence) , but are more than willing to attribute conservative motives to this nutbag. I still can't find any evidence that this guy is some right-wing kook.

Didn't you link his youtube channel? You either don't understand the content of his book list or you don't understand the platform and grievances of those on the extreme right.

I'd like links to where I posted something contradictory about Hassan's motives. The thread is available for you to search, so it shouldn't be hard for you to do.

[TeyshaBlue]

It doesn't have to be some government thought police. Thats my point. I'm talking about fostering an environment of hatred in politics today that provides a breeding ground for actions like this.

You can't sit there and tell me with a straight face that hyperbolic rhetoric comparing our current government to Nazi Germany or a Stalinist government don't add to that.

Even if this act wasn't directly related to any of that, I have to wonder what the hell it would take for politicians to contemplate the ramifications of what they say outside of electoral gains.

I agree with your characterization of today's political rhetoric. But where do you suppose the solution lies? It aint coming from individual citizens. If an attempt at a solution materializes at all, it will be a legislative one because that's all politicians know how to do.

[MannyIsGod]

Name 2 friends of Ted Kazynski. He's the poster child for solo nutbars everywhere.


Those people are vacuums.

Kaczynski attened major Harvard and Michigan, taught at a California institution before moving to a cabin. If I'm not mistaken, his moving to the cabin was because he was a luddite and not due to some aversion with people.

He absolutely did not grow to his belief structure in a vacuum.

[MannyIsGod]

I agree with your characterization of today's political rhetoric. But where do you suppose the solution lies? It aint coming from individual citizens. If an attempt at a solution materializes at all, it will be a legislative one because that's all politicians know how to do.

It has to come from the citizens. Of course I have my doubts on whether or not this will happen (bitch about the rhetoric and what do you get - called a partisan hack or get told to stop applying blame) but that doesn't change that its a problem.

Legislation can't solve it for very obvious reasons. Thats simply a non starter. At some point people will need to hold their leaders responsible instead of letting anything your side says go because they happen to be on your god damn team.

[CosmicCowboy]

Kaczynski attened major Harvard and Michigan, taught at a California institution before moving to a cabin. If I'm not mistaken, his moving to the cabin was because he was a luddite and not due to some aversion with people.

He absolutely did not grow to his belief structure in a vacuum.

Manny, I kind of get your point in a Sesame Street kind of way but none of us operate in a vacuum. Whackos are still Whackos.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, I kind of get your point in a Sesame Street kind of way but none of us operate in a vacuum. Whackos are still Whackos.

Why bother raising your kids then, CC? You guys can't act like shit like this is due to some kind of predetermination then act like parenting means something. Either our lives are influenced by outside actions or they're not.

What amazes me most is how some people can say asking "why" is actually irresponsible. That is a concept completely baffling to me. By nature I want to know why everything happens and I want to understand it.

[Spurminator]

I agree that political speech is too hyperbolic in the mainstream as well as within fringe groups, but the best we can hope to do is simply shame those who engage in such hyperbole... We'll never be rid of it and I kind of agree with the Slate column that it's probably an outlet for a lot of crazy people that PREVENTS more violent acts from happening by giving them an outlet for their irrational rage.

I'd love to see people and our news outlets take the hyperbole down a notch, I just can't pin this tragedy on those things. That's not to say I don't think other violent acts could ever be influenced by media sensationalism though... Hell, I could even see the sensationalism and blame-mongering around this story potentially leading to some scary "payback" actions. Imagine that.

[TeyshaBlue]

Kaczynski attened major Harvard and Michigan, taught at a California institution before moving to a cabin. If I'm not mistaken, his moving to the cabin was because he was a luddite and not due to some aversion with people.

He absolutely did not grow to his belief structure in a vacuum.

Dude, he taught for 2 years before resigning and living in a cabin, as a recluse for over two decades. Yeah, I'd say he had an aversion to people as well as rational thought.:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Luddite's hate technology. To avoid technology he moved to a cabin. That doesn't mean he would have avoided others if they had come to live in his circumstances.

Now, to be fair I'm not extremely well versed on whether or not he had some aversion to people - he very well may have - but I don't see that a requirement for where he lived based on his views on technology.

I'm fairly interested now though. Might have to do some reading up on Kaczynski.

[CosmicCowboy]

World News should be limited again to only three channels and only be shown from 6PM to 6:30PM.

Then we should have only safe well balanced shows on TV like "I Love Lucy" and "Bonanza"




Violent shit like this never happened back then.

[TeyshaBlue]

Luddite's hate technology. To avoid technology he moved to a cabin. That doesn't mean he would have avoided others if they had come to live in his circumstances.

Now, to be fair I'm not extremely well versed on whether or not he had some aversion to people - he very well may have - but I don't see that a requirement for where he lived based on his views on technology.

I'm fairly interested now though. Might have to do some reading up on Kaczynski.

He's kind of an outlier, really. He was admitted to Harvard at 15 or 16. A freaking brainiac, which may be the root of his issues....you know the "fine line" we always hear about.

[MannyIsGod]

If I had to watch Bonanza I might murder someone. Just saying.

[MannyIsGod]

He's kind of an outlier, really. He was admitted to Harvard at 15 or 16. A freaking brainiac, which may be the root of his issues....you know the "fine line" we always hear about.

I don't know - I'm really interested now though.

[DarrinS]

Too bad we can't go back to an era when there was more civility in public discourse -- say the 1960's.

[xrayzebra]

Too bad we can't go back to an era when there was more civility in public discourse -- say the 1960's.

Yeah, how about 1963. Lee Harvey Oswald.
The little Communist.

There has never been civility in politics, just
a lack of not reporting all that went on.

Or how about in the late 40's and the 50's.
While the Congressmen were ducking and
Truman was told to quit walking cause the
Puerto Rican's were gonna get him.

Or Abraham Lincoln. Hope he enjoyed the
play before he got his head blown off.

Lots of civility throughout our history and
world history.

[MannyIsGod]

"I will file a motion for reconsideration," she said on her website, adding that she has "evidence of highly suspicious activity in several federal courts."

"If we don't clean up corruption in the judiciary, in the White House, citizens of this country will have no trust in the system and will take justice in their own hands. This is dangerous," she wrote.

There is a great example of what I am talking about. That is a completely out in the open threat for violence by a right wing nut job. Thats from the article RG posted in his birther's thread.

[Winehole23]

Orly Taitz is a joke. Her only game at this point is to make her failure as notorious as possible. She is succeeding, and you are helping her, Manny.

You are her megaphone, drawing attention to her in this thread, as if birthers were somehow specifically connected to the shooting of Rep. Giffords and the massacre of many more.

[Winehole23]

They are not.

[George Gervin's Afro]

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/ChrisField/2011/01/06/the_50_most_dangerous_liberals_in_america

Chris Field

The 50 Most Dangerous Liberals in America
Email Chris Field | All Posts By Blogger

On Nov. 2, Americans sent a message to the liberals in Washington: Stop it!

After less than two years of watching a far-Left administration and Congress show their contempt for the citizenry and pursue a radical agenda that only hyper-liberal-progressive voters could support, the nation woke up and realized the disaster highlighted by the 2008 election of Barack Obama: Liberals had been given way too much power.

Americans have witnessed with disgust the progressives' efforts to tear at the very fabric of America.

We don't want to "radically transform" the country.

We don't want to reject our founding principles of liberty and limited government.

We love our Constitution and respect it.

The midterms were a rejection of the Left. But that's where we must be careful -- like a wounded animal, liberals are dangerous when exposed and backed into a corner.

The Townhall editorial staff saw the threat radical liberals are to our country and compiled a list of those who pose the greatest danger to the future of the republic. The toughest part was limiting the list to 50, but we did it. We had two requirements: 1) They had to be living, which is one reason Saul Alinsky didn't make the list; and 2) they had to be based in America, thus no Julian Assange of WikiLeaks fame.

One thing subscribers have quickly noted: Neither Bill nor Hillary Clinton made the list. Tells you something about the people who did, doesn't it?

[Winehole23]

Suggesting that Tea Partiers and birthers have blood on their hands is no way to start an mutually uplifting dialogue. Just saying.

[MannyIsGod]

They don't have to be specifically linked to be an example of rhetoric that does far more harm that good. I have never once stated that that quote or any other quote from anyone in the birther movement caused this attack. Quite frankly I expect far better reading comprehension from you, WH.

Its laughable that I am her megaphone when I quote her statement to the press. Acting as though we're not allowed to talk about the ramifications of people who are getting press coverage because it makes their name bigger is utter foolishness when almost a fourth of the nation subscribes to their belief regarding president Obama.

[Winehole23]

You got stuck on Orly Taitz. I think we're all aware of that.

[Winehole23]

They don't have to be specifically linked to be an example of rhetoric that does far more harm that good. I have never once stated that that quote or any other quote from anyone in the birther movement caused this attack. Quite frankly I expect far better reading comprehension from you, WH.Inferential. WTF does Orly Taitz or anything she said, have to do with the OP?

[Winehole23]

Taitz and those like her encouraged the shooter to do what he did, something like that?

[CosmicCowboy]

Taitz and those like her encouraged the shooter to do what he did, something like that?

It was actually Fox News and Rush Limbaugh. Thats why we need the fairness doctrine.

[MannyIsGod]

Inferential. WTF does Orly Taitz or anything she said, have to do with the OP?

Perhaps reading the evolution of the thread will answer that question for you. A few hundred replies into a thread and sometimes the scope of the discussion morphs outside of the limited scope of the OP.

[Winehole23]

The fairness doctrine isn't coming back. It does seem to be a popular bogey-man, though.


(Like a lot of other political pivot points, the choice of bad guy can function as a shibboleth (http://dictionary.die.net/shibboleth). It separates ideological natives from untrustworthy outsiders.)

[Winehole23]

Perhaps reading the evolution of the thread will answer that question for you. A few hundred replies into a thread and sometimes the scope of the discussion morphs outside of the limited scope of the OP.Certainly. Would you care to answer the question posed?

[MannyIsGod]

Certainly. Would you care to answer the question posed?

It is answered. Would you care to read the answer to your question prior to it even being posed? I understand you view that quote as benign, but do you feel everyone feels that way?

[MannyIsGod]

The fairness doctrine isn't coming back. It does seem to be a popular bogey-man, though.


(Like a lot of other political pivot points, the choice of bad guy can function as a shibboleth (http://dictionary.die.net/shibboleth). It separates ideological natives from untrustworthy outsiders.)

Did you miss the part where I said legislation wasn't the answer to this or was that part of the thread you ignored?

If you're going to come off as a smart ass the least you can do is read what people post prior to spouting off.

[Winehole23]

It is answered. Sorry if I missed it. Would you mind repeating yourself?

[Winehole23]

Did you miss the part where I said legislation wasn't the answer to this or was that part of the thread you ignored?

If you're going to come off as a smart ass the least you can do is read what people post prior to spouting off.You responded to my response to CC. Why?

[MannyIsGod]

How was I to know it was directed at CC?

[Winehole23]

Did you miss the part where I said legislation wasn't the answer to this or was that part of the thread you ignored?No. But I caught your sly, and fairly insistent insinuation that right wingers have blood on their hands because of their hateful and violent speech.

[Winehole23]

How was I to know it was directed at CC?Once read, how could you possibly have assumed it was a reply to you?

[MannyIsGod]

Sorry if I missed it. Would you mind repeating yourself?

Sure, just for you:


There is a great example of what I am talking about. That is a completely out in the open threat for violence by a right wing nut job. Thats from the article RG posted in his birther's thread.

If you'd like further clarification of my point the posts found in this thread made today - especially those in my conversation with Teysha - are located just prior to that one and will help further clarify my position. I'll even elaborate further on those posts should have you questions on specific parts of them if you'd like.

[baseline bum]

Well, pish-tosh, if they say it--it's gotta be true.

The article didn't say it; boutons did.

[MannyIsGod]

No. But I caught your sly, and fairly insistent insinuation that right wingers have blood on their hands because of their hateful and violent speech.

Sly? Oh I think I made it clear that I feel that type of speech encourages violence. I think I also made it clear that even if that speech didn't lead directly to this attack it didn't make that point less valid. I would have hoped you had caught that because I felt I made it quite clear.

[Winehole23]

What Orly Taitz said is a direct threat to public order? I think not.

[MannyIsGod]

The leader of a movement such as that making a completely unveiled threat of violence isn't a big deal? Ok.

[DarrinS]

Yeah, how about 1963. Lee Harvey Oswald.
The little Communist.

There has never been civility in politics, just
a lack of not reporting all that went on.

Or how about in the late 40's and the 50's.
While the Congressmen were ducking and
Truman was told to quit walking cause the
Puerto Rican's were gonna get him.

Or Abraham Lincoln. Hope he enjoyed the
play before he got his head blown off.

Lots of civility throughout our history and
world history.



And no talk radio or big bad Fox news to point the finger at.

[Winehole23]

The leader of a movement such as that making a completely unveiled threat of violence isn't a big deal? Ok.No. It isn't. The so called threat is not particularized in any way, neither does its context pose any immediate threat to anything.

IMO it is barely a threat at all. Just an observation that insurrection might be valid under some circumstances. However misguided or malevolent the POV is, I was under the impression that such opinions were protected speech.

Free speech, for better and for worse.

[DarrinS]

What Orly Taitz said is a direct threat to public order? I think not.


That is a freakishly weird name.


By the way, who is that in your avatar?

[clambake]

By the way, who is that in your avatar?

l. marvin hamlisch

[Winehole23]

By the way, who is that in your avatar?James Coburn, from The President's Analyst.

[DarrinS]

Check out the dudes mugshot.



http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg640/scaled.php?tn=0&server=640&filename=wfvl.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

[TeyshaBlue]

James Coburn, from The President's Analyst.

That's a pretty wheels-off pic of Coburn.:lol

[clambake]

James Coburn, from The President's Analyst.

ha ha i thought it was lee marvin.

[TeyshaBlue]

Check out the dudes mugshot.



http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg640/scaled.php?tn=0&server=640&filename=wfvl.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

The unholy union of Mister Clean and Zippy the Pinhead.

[RandomGuy]

Check out the dudes mugshot.

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg640/scaled.php?tn=0&server=640&filename=wfvl.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

Man, that is just the creepiest smile I have seen in a while.

I would not get on an elevator with someone looking like that. (shivers)

[MannyIsGod]

No. It isn't. The so called threat is not particularized in any way, neither does its context pose any immediate threat to anything.

IMO it is barely a threat at all. Just an observation that insurrection might be valid under some circumstances. However misguided or malevolent the POV is, I was under the impression that such opinions were protected speech.

Free speech, for better and for worse.

I don't remember saying that they don't have the right to say these things, WH. However, I do remember pointing out several times that free speech and positions of authority come with responsibilities.

I made it a point to make it very clear that I didn't want legislation because I knew someone would bust out the free speech argument.

You can be dismissive of her comments. Thats completely your prerogative.

However, to say she was merely pointing out a possible outcome with no intent is naive as all hell. Her intent was obviously to sway - as a warning to what might happen if the ruling doesn't go the way they'd like.

To those who believe as she does, this can serve as a legitimacy to act out against a judiciary they see as corrupt and out of control. By acknowledging this even as a plausible action she gives it so much legitimacy that its not even funny.

And that right there underscores the point of how irresponsible it is. Even if she has no intent to use it as anything other that a weak scare tactic to try and strong arm a judge thats not how everyone supporting their cause may view it. Its a perfect example of irresponsible rhetoric that gives legs to those who already hold anti government sentiments and those she represents.

[DarrinS]

Man, that is just the creepiest smile I have seen in a while.

I would not get on an elevator with someone looking like that. (shivers)


It's the eye's, especially that right one.

[MannyIsGod]

Check out the dudes mugshot.



http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg640/scaled.php?tn=0&server=640&filename=wfvl.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

Who the fuck smiles in a mugshot. Thats a scary picture.

[clambake]

delay smiled in his mugshot.

lets work on this connection.

[ElNono]

Let's see the mug when he gets the injection...

[Winehole23]

I don't remember saying that they don't have the right to say these things, WH. However, I do remember pointing out several times that free speech and positions of authority come with responsibilities. Disappointments, too.

I made it a point to make it very clear that I didn't want legislation because I knew someone would bust out the free speech argument. Acknowledged. Let's move on.

However, to say she was merely pointing out a possible outcome with no intent is naive as all hell.No one said so.
Her intent was obviously to sway - as a warning to what might happen if the ruling doesn't go the way they'd like.

To those who believe as she does, this can serve as a legitimacy to act out against a judiciary they see as corrupt and out of control. By acknowledging this even as a plausible action she gives it so much legitimacy that its not even funny.

And that right there underscores the point of how irresponsible it is. Even if she has no intent to use it as anything other that a weak scare tactic to try and strong arm a judge thats not how everyone supporting their cause may view it. Its a perfect example of irresponsible rhetoric that gives legs to those who already hold anti government sentiments and those she represents.Sure. Free speech ain't pretty, or to put it another way, it's at least as ugly as we are.

(lol at Orly Taitz strong-arming judges.) :lol

[MannyIsGod]

Props to the police for keeping their cool. God only knows how this fucker made it to that mug shot without a scratch on his face.

[Winehole23]

(I heard somewhere people in the crowd managed to hold him up until LE arrived. True or false?)

[MannyIsGod]

Disappointments, too.
Acknowledged. Let's move on.
No one said so. Sure. Free speech ain't pretty, or to put it another way, it's at least as ugly as we are.

(lol at Orly Taitz strong-arming judges.) :lol

Oh I'm sure its not going to work against the judges on the supreme court (or any court, for that matter). In fact that makes it even more irresponsible.

There will likely always be people saying shit irresponsibly, of course. That doesn't mean we have to accept it or condone it.

[Crookshanks]

That's one scary looking dude. But in a way, he looks like Uncle Fester from the Addams Family! :lol

[Winehole23]

There will likely always be people saying shit irresponsibly, of course. That doesn't mean we have to accept it or condone it.Absolutely not. But calling such speakers accessories to murder is factually wrong.

[DarrinS]

(I heard somewhere people in the crowd managed to hold him up until LE arrived. True or false?)


A 75 yr old retired military guy, from what I've read.

[Crookshanks]

(I heard somewhere people in the crowd managed to hold him up until LE arrived. True or false?)

True - they interviewed a woman on Fox News who was one of the people who helped subdue the shooter. She's also the one who got the magazine away from him.

[MannyIsGod]

I didn't say they were accessories to murder because I agree that would be factually wrong.

[Winehole23]

Thx for the updates, DarrinS and Crookshanks. :tu

[Winehole23]

I didn't say they were accessories to murder because I agree that would be factually wrong.You've suggested as much, wouldn't you agree?

[MannyIsGod]

Absolutely not. Considering I haven't said once what they have done is illegal but irresponsible how in the hell could one draw the conclusion I considered them accessories to murder? Being an accessory to murder is a clear crime of active assistance, WH. Irresponsible speech that I may find disgusting does not go that far and I've NEVER said as much.

[Winehole23]

Since you deny it, I suppose that's the end of it.

Thanks for clearing that up. Clearly, I was mistaken.

[Winehole23]

(I thought you had already agreed to it. My bad.)

[RandomGuy]

A 75 yr old retired military guy, from what I've read.

Anybody know where Xray lives? :lol

Honestly, they guy is lucky that bystanders didn't beat him into pulp. I'm sure I would be less than kind to someone who just shot that many people, respect for law or no.

The guy deserves a fair trial, but I wouldn't be all that sad if somehow his neck had been snapped in the struggle.

[MannyIsGod]

(I thought you had already agreed to it. My bad.)

I agreed that they can incite violence but not that its a level that should be considered illegal. There's a fundamental reason why I keep saying irresponsible and not illegal.

[CuckingFunt]

Do you mean in reality, or in yours and Yonivore's threads on the subject? Because I don't think it's a stretch to believe you both would be ALL OVER the partisan angle if the congresswoman were Republican. Sorry.

Anyway, I agree that labeling this guy for partisan brownie points is ridiculous. As is the endless haughty bloviating about the broad societal ills that caused the shooting.

There's really not a whole lot to learn here. It wasn't about crosshairs or books or vitriol in the media or Obamacare or religion or gun control, it's about a fucking nutjob going psycho.

Party cheerleading, 24-hour news and political rage certainly have consequences but a lone nihilistic idiot going on a shooting rampage is the least of those. Sometimes tragedy can't be conveniently explained away, nor prevented.


I haven't caught up in the thread, but I do want to post right now and say that it really is irrelevant which side does the irresponsible rhetoric more. There should really be a public backlash against it at all times.

Honestly, it speaks to us as a society that this shit goes down to begin with.

Agree completely with both.

[CuckingFunt]

Give it up Manny - stop with the blaming. The guy is a nut job - plain and simple. This is not the fault of the Tea Party. Don't you have some weather to go study?

I don't see why this is continually separated into two, discrete, either/or scenarios in this thread. Either he's a plain and simple nut job, or his actions must have been a direct result of Tea Party rhetoric. Why not both? Or neither?

[Crookshanks]

Someone who accomplished what he came to do. Dude's a mental case, and possibly under the effects of mind control. I haven't been following too closely due to other things going on but I've heard talk of them seeking a 2nd older suspect, possibly the dude's "handler?" Can anyone elaborate more on this? Not surprising because anyone can give a nutcase some drugs, money, and encouragement and get him to do crazy shit, just look at Bum Fights.

The older "person of interest" has been cleared. He was just a taxi cab driver who drove the shooter to the store.

[MannyIsGod]

"Sarah, as you know, peace is always the answer. I know you're feeling the same heat -- if not much more -- on this.

I want you to know you have my support. But please look into protection for your family. An attempt on you could bring the republic down.

Please, call Gavin de Becker in Los Angeles. He is the guy that protects me. They are, bar none, the best. There are nut jobs on all sides."

Glen Beck.

The kind of mindset that we're so close to civil war that an attempt on Palin would bring the republic down is amazing to me. I don't for a second believe that an attack on anyone in our government could bring the Republic down.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

For what, comparing politics to a street brawl, or alluding to guns and knives figuratively?

Yes

[MannyIsGod]

"The ubiquitous nature of the Internet means that not only threats but also hate speech and other inciteful speech is much more readily available to individuals than quite clearly it was 8 or 10 or 15 years ago. That absolutely presents a challenge for us, particularly when it results in what would be lone wolves or lone offenders undertaking attacks."

-- FBI Director Robert Mueller, quoted by the New York Times.

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/09/20110109daniel-hernandez-gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting.html#ixzz1AXbGyLn1


The Arizona Republic highlights the heroic actions of Daniel Hernandez, a new intern for Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), who ran towards the gunfire in yesterday's shooting and likely saved lives, including that of the congresswoman.

"When the shots began that morning, he saw many people lying on the ground, including a young girl. Some were bleeding. Hernandez said he moved from person to person checking pulses... Then he saw Giffords. She had fallen and was lying contorted on the sidewalk. She was bleeding. Using his hand, Hernandez applied pressure to the entry wound on her forehead. He pulled her into his lap, holding her upright against him so she wouldn't choke on her own blood."

"He stayed with Giffords until paramedics arrived. They strapped her to a board and loaded her into an ambulance. Hernandez climbed in with her. On the ride to the hospital, he held her hand. She squeezed his back."

[redzero]

Why do people even care about this Palin shit in the first place? The same goes for the other side.

I doubt the dude was walking around one day, saw a flier or whatever with a bullseye on it and decided "I think I will shoot up a Congresswoman today."

The dude is fucking crazy. Crazy people do crazy things. The end.

[boutons_deux]

crazy people create their own demons, but the right-wing has created a super-inflamed, polarizing, militant, aggressive atmosphere since 1992.

[redzero]

crazy people create their own demons, but the right-wing has created a super-inflamed, polarizing, militant, aggressive atmosphere since 1992.

That's absolutely wonderful, but it has nothing to do with what Loughner did.

Unless you know something we don't know and can personally tell us what he was thinking before he went on a spree killing.

Do you know something we don't know? Do you know his motive? Are you just trying to reach and use this as ammunition against people you don't agree with politically?

[boutons_deux]

The vehemence of the gun-toting, assault-rifle-to-political-meetings, guns-for-everyone-everwhere bubbas in trying to dissociate themselves, with absolute certitude they are 1005 innocnet, from a crazed gun-nut assassinating a Jew ex-Repug Dem woman is very telling.

They created this shit-and-venom-filled bed that encourages these gun nuts and crazies, and they can lie in it. Sleep well.

[boutons_deux]

Here's some violent shitt You People, dickless every one of you, have been flinging:

"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus - living fossils - so we will never forget what these people stood for."

- Rush Limbaugh, Denver Post, 12-29-95

"Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."

- Rep. James Hansen (R-UT), talking about President Clinton

"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."

- Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX), Mother Jones, 08-95

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

- Ann Coulter, New York Observer, 08-26-02

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

- Ann Coulter, at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02-26-02

"Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable in law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored. All the great despotisms of the past - I'm not arguing for despotism as a principle, but they sure knew how to deal with potential trouble - recognized that the families of objectionable citizens were a continuing threat. In Stalin's penal code it was a crime to be the wife or child of an 'enemy of the people.' The Nazis used the same principle, which they called Sippenhaft, 'clan liability.' In Imperial China, enemies of the state were punished 'to the ninth degree': that is, everyone in the offender's own generation would be killed and everyone related via four generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down, to the great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed."

- John Derbyshire, National Review, 02-15-01

"Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity. The degree these two have diminished is in direct proportion to the corruption and fall of the nation. Every problem that has arisen (sic) can be directly traced back to our departure from God's Law and the disenfranchisement of White men."

- State Rep. Don Davis (R-NC), emailed to every member of the North Carolina House and Senate, reported by the Fayetteville Observer, 08-22-01

http://www.truth-out.org/print/66686

[redzero]

And yet again, he claims to know why this happened while providing zero evidence.

Truly pathetic.

[Winehole23]

I agreed that they can incite violence but not that its a level that should be considered illegal. There's a fundamental reason why I keep saying irresponsible and not illegal.Fair enough, but there's not a very bright line there.

[redzero]

Here's some violent shitt You People, dickless every one of you, have been flinging:

"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus - living fossils - so we will never forget what these people stood for."

- Rush Limbaugh, Denver Post, 12-29-95

"Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."

- Rep. James Hansen (R-UT), talking about President Clinton

"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."

- Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX), Mother Jones, 08-95

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

- Ann Coulter, New York Observer, 08-26-02

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

- Ann Coulter, at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02-26-02

"Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable in law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored. All the great despotisms of the past - I'm not arguing for despotism as a principle, but they sure knew how to deal with potential trouble - recognized that the families of objectionable citizens were a continuing threat. In Stalin's penal code it was a crime to be the wife or child of an 'enemy of the people.' The Nazis used the same principle, which they called Sippenhaft, 'clan liability.' In Imperial China, enemies of the state were punished 'to the ninth degree': that is, everyone in the offender's own generation would be killed and everyone related via four generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down, to the great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed."

- John Derbyshire, National Review, 02-15-01

"Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity. The degree these two have diminished is in direct proportion to the corruption and fall of the nation. Every problem that has arisen (sic) can be directly traced back to our departure from God's Law and the disenfranchisement of White men."

- State Rep. Don Davis (R-NC), emailed to every member of the North Carolina House and Senate, reported by the Fayetteville Observer, 08-22-01

http://www.truth-out.org/print/66686

You can keep copying and pasting these quotes until your fingers fall off, but until you can prove that they had an effect Jared Loughner's actions, you're wasting your time.

[boutons_deux]

You People got the murderous political violence you been talking about for year, now you're too dickless chickshit to accept the responsibility.

Proof, no.

And you can't prove your politically violent speech had no effect on the assassin, and others to come.

The suggestion, the probability is much more for my position than for yours.

[redzero]

Proof, no.

Exactly. The end.


And you can't prove your politically violent speech had no effect on the assassin, and others to come.

That's not how it works, idiot. The burden of proof rests solely on the one making the accusations. You don't get to make claims without backing them up with evidence. Well, you can, but they won't be taken seriously.

Until you have actual evidence, shut up, because you sound stupid.

[BlairForceDejuan]

"The ubiquitous nature of the Internet means that not only threats but also hate speech and other inciteful speech is much more readily available to individuals than quite clearly it was 8 or 10 or 15 years ago. That absolutely presents a challenge for us, particularly when it results in what would be lone wolves or lone offenders undertaking attacks."

-- FBI Director Robert Mueller, quoted by the New York Times.

Nice setup for Obama's policing of the internets on anonymity.

[rascal]

You can keep copying and pasting these quotes until your fingers fall off, but until you can prove that they had an effect Jared Loughner's actions, you're wasting your time.

These quotes are examples of the right inciting anger and hate to the point of crossing the line to violence if that is what it takes to get what they want.

[DarrinS]

These quotes are examples of the right inciting anger and hate to the point of crossing the line to violence if that is what it takes to get what they want.


There is ZERO evidence that suggests that shooting was motivated by ideology. But keep adding to the "civil" discourse.

[redzero]

These quotes are examples of the right inciting anger and hate to the point of crossing the line to violence if that is what it takes to get what they want.

And again, I ask for a connection between these quotes and the shooter. If it cannot be proven that Loughner was influenced by them, they are completely and totally irrelevant to the incident.

[redzero]

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message


Tierney, who's also 22, recalls Loughner complaining about a Giffords event he attended during that period. He's unsure whether it was the same one mentioned in the charges—Loughner "might have gone to some other rallies," he says—but Tierney notes it was a significant moment for Loughner: "He told me that she opened up the floor for questions and he asked a question. The question was, 'What is government if words have no meaning?'"

Giffords' answer, whatever it was, didn't satisfy Loughner. "He said, 'Can you believe it, they wouldn't answer my question,' and I told him, 'Dude, no one's going to answer that,'" Tierney recalls. "Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her."

So, he is a grammar nazi taken to the extreme. It's become more and more obvious that he is just fucking insane, but people still want to point fingers.

Maybe his English teacher should be arrested.

[Yonivore]

Seriously?

After all that's been learned since Saturday, there are people in here willing to believe the Tucson shooting had anything to do with political rhetoric?

Loughner has had a thing for Giffords since 2007, that's before Palin and pre-Tea Party.

Loughner hasn't suggested anywhere, and the FBI has reported there is no evidence Loughner acted in response to anything the Tea Party or conservative talk shows or Sarah Palin have said or done. There's not any evidence he was even aware of the Tea Party.

What we do know is the Pima County Sheriff's office has been aware of this kook and his threats, for some time. Me thinks Dupnik is trying to distract from his own failure to prevent this heinous crime.

Fortunately, not many people are buying the "The Right-Wing Hate Mongers caused this" meme. It's getting a bit tired.

[Nbadan]

Yep....No connection at all....except you might get shot if you talk about the sensationalists and bombastic nature of wing-nut politics in Arizona apparently..

[ducks]

crazy people create their own demons, but the right-wing has created a super-inflamed, polarizing, militant, aggressive atmosphere since 1992.

lack of responsible parents
nothing to do with the lberals or conservatives

but lets blame the rep like usually boutons

everything wrong is always their fault everything right is always the liebral fault right

[Nbadan]

..the fact he shot a politician makes it political.....

:lol at the wing-nuts who are whining about liberals turning this 'political'...it's political because a popular politician was shot......hello?

[redzero]

..the fact he shot a politician makes it political.....

:lol at the wing-nuts who are whining about liberals turning this 'political'...it's political because a popular politician was shot......hello?

Okay, I'll agree with it being political.

I, however, disagree with this assumption that Loughner's actions were the result of violent rhetoric.

[Yonivore]

Yep....No connection at all....except you might get shot if you talk about the sensationalists and bombastic nature of wing-nut politics in Arizona apparently..
Actually, in this case it appears you -- and whoever dare stand near you -- get shot by a psychotic killer that didn't like the way you answered a question three or four years ago. A psychotic killer that has made threats on yours and other lives in the past but couldn't grab the interest of the local sheriff until he saw an opportunity to make political points while, at the same time, distracting the public from the fact he's the local sheriff that couldn't be bothered to cage this madman before he actually massacred 6 people and destroyed the lives of over a dozen others.

There is absolutely no connection between Loughner's motives and any political rhetoric. Unfortunately, it appears Congresswoman Giffords sealed everyone's fate, years ago, by deigning to engage an insane person at a constituent outing.

[Nbadan]

maybe, maybe not, but it sure didn't help....either way, it's all about perception in politics...so, expect wing-nut politicians to be missing some 'ammo' at their right hip in future elections.....as for the turned down rhetoric from wing-nuts? I won't hold my breathe....

[Yonivore]

..the fact he shot a politician makes it political.....

:lol at the wing-nuts who are whining about liberals turning this 'political'...it's political because a popular politician was shot......hello?
But, and let's say this together Dan, it has nothing to do with the rhetoric of any of the current political debates in this country. Absolutely nothing.

Loughner attempted to kill Giffords because she was a "fake" politician -- whatever that means in his putrid brain.

[redzero]

If what occurred had nothing to do with rhetoric, I see no point in using the shootings as proof that the rhetoric has gotten out of control.

So far, all these shootings are proof of is that insane people will find insane reasons to do insane things.

[Yonivore]

maybe, maybe not, but it sure didn't help
And, in this case, it didn't hurt either. It played no role. None. Zilch.


....either way, it's all about perception in politics...so, expect wing-nut politicians to be missing some 'ammo' at their right hip in future elections.....as for the turned down rhetoric from wing-nuts? I won't hold my breathe....
:lmao You're an idiot.

[MiamiHeat]

I don't remember saying that they don't have the right to say these things, WH. However, I do remember pointing out several times that free speech and positions of authority come with responsibilities.

I made it a point to make it very clear that I didn't want legislation because I knew someone would bust out the free speech argument.

You can be dismissive of her comments. Thats completely your prerogative.

However, to say she was merely pointing out a possible outcome with no intent is naive as all hell. Her intent was obviously to sway - as a warning to what might happen if the ruling doesn't go the way they'd like.

To those who believe as she does, this can serve as a legitimacy to act out against a judiciary they see as corrupt and out of control. By acknowledging this even as a plausible action she gives it so much legitimacy that its not even funny.

And that right there underscores the point of how irresponsible it is. Even if she has no intent to use it as anything other that a weak scare tactic to try and strong arm a judge thats not how everyone supporting their cause may view it. Its a perfect example of irresponsible rhetoric that gives legs to those who already hold anti government sentiments and those she represents.

:lmao:lmao:lmao

I should make a thread on this retard, MannyIsGod.

Not too long ago he was making fun of me for wanting the country to disallow organizations and "inciteful speech" so it doesn't incite violence among the populace.... so things like this shooting don't happen.

MannyIsGod apparently has had a complete 180, and now finds himself a complete moron. He now agrees with me, even after his "hate cake" posts :lmao:lmao:lmao


These are the things I said that he made fun on August 2010.


Yup. I was just saying we can't allow large, organized hate rallys. Those things spread.


You can't allow poison to spread. Sometimes it holds and infects everyone. People are impressionable and can be swayed....


No, they should not have the right to do them.

It incites violence and instability within the population.

Protesting peacefully, holding rallys for productive, positive efforts should be completely supported and protected.

Holding rallys out of hatred for another citizen, no matter the reason, incites violence and should not be allowed.


Yes, individuals can hate whatever they want. That's their right.

Just don't organize large meetings and rallys to organize their efforts and spread the mindset. It's wrong.

Thanks


and now here he is, saying the country should backlash against people being "irresponsible" with their hate speech because things like this can happen.

:lmao

The sad part about being wise, is that even when you are correct, it takes some people way too long to realize it.

[Nbadan]

I guess you didn't get the PDF?


Two years before the Tucson massacre, the Department of Homeland Security warned in a report that right wing extremism was on the rise and could prompt "lone wolves" to launch attacks. But the agency backed away from the report amid intense criticism from Republicans, including future House Speaker John Boehner.

The report, which warned that the crippled economy and the election of the first black president were “unique drivers for rightwing radicalization and recruitment,” described the rise of “lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent rightwing extremist ideology [as] the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States.”

Dept. of Homeland Security (http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/2815/)

[redzero]

I guess you didn't get the PDF?



Dept. of Homeland Security (http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/2815/)

Okay, I looked at your quote. It mentioned right wing extremism. Great.

Now make the connection between Loughner and right wing extremism. Please.

[Yonivore]

I guess you didn't get the PDF?

Dept. of Homeland Security (http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/2815/)
I searched the PDF for Loughner's name. It didn't turn up.

The left has been trying to get this narrative to take root for decades. It ain't flying Dan.

A right-wing extremist incited by the vitriol in Dallas assassinated President Kennedy until, well, it turned out to be a Communist Castro Sympathizer.

More recently, a Tea Partier attempted to blow up Time Square until, well, it turned out to be an Islamic Extremist.

The jig is up, Dan...only nuts like you are still pushing the narrative.

The only violence, I know of, where American partisan political rhetoric has played a role is the near fatal beating of Ken Gladney.

[Nbadan]

Okay, I looked at your quote. It mentioned right wing extremism. Great.

Now make the connection between Loughner and right wing extremism. Please.

Tea baggers have very close ties to violent anti-immigrant organizations


According to a law enforcement memo based on information provided by DHS and obtained by Fox News, Jared Loughner, the alleged shooter of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, may have been influenced by a pro-white racist organization that publishes an anti-immigration newsletter.

No direct connection, but strong suspicion is being direceted at American Renaissance, an organization that Loughner mentioned in some of his internet postings and federal law enforcement officials are investigating Loughner's possible links to the organization. The organization is a monthly publication that promotes a variety of white racial positions.

"The group's ideology is anti government, anti immigration, anti ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government), anti Semitic," according to the memo which goes on to point out that Congressman Giffords is the first Jewish female elected to high office in Arizona. A recent posting on American Renaissance's website on January 7 begins with an article entitled: "Exit poll: Whites are Different." The site goes on to list anti-immigration articles. Investigators are also pursuing Loughner's alleged anti-Semitism. [FoxNews.com, 1/9/11]

In a separate post, Fox News provided excerpts from the memo stating that Giffords was "opposite this group's ideology when it came to immigration debate":

Faux News (http://mediamatters.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2FGretawire.blogs.foxnews.com)

[redzero]

Tea baggers have very close ties to violent anti-immigrant organizations



Faux News (http://mediamatters.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2FGretawire.blogs.foxnews.com)

Okay, that's great and all, but what do tea baggers have to do with what Loughner did? Is Loughner a tea bagger?

[Yonivore]

Mother Jones, another bastion of Conservative Thought, published an interview with one of Loughner's few close friends...

Exclusive: Loughner Friend Explains Alleged Gunman's Grudge Against Giffords (http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message?page=1)


Tierney, who's also 22, recalls Loughner complaining about a Giffords event he attended during that period. He's unsure whether it was the same one mentioned in the charges—Loughner "might have gone to some other rallies," he says—but Tierney notes it was a significant moment for Loughner: "He told me that she opened up the floor for questions and he asked a question. The question was, 'What is government if words have no meaning?'"
"He said, 'Can you believe it, they wouldn't answer my question.' Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her."

Giffords' answer, whatever it was, didn't satisfy Loughner. "He said, 'Can you believe it, they wouldn't answer my question,' and I told him, 'Dude, no one's going to answer that,'" Tierney recalls. "Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her."

Tierney says he has "no clue" why Loughner might have "shot all those other people." But, he notes, "when I heard Gabrielle Giffords has been shot, I was like 'Oh my God...' For some reason I felt like I knew...I felt like if anyone was going to shoot her, it would be Jared."
Read the whole thing. No mention of Loughner's Tea Party bent.

[Nbadan]

That kinda like asking if some of the founding fathers were slave owners because they owned slaves..

http://mountainsageblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/2009-06-12-LiberalHuntingSticker.jpg

Many violent anti-immigrant groups have found a friendly voice to speak with in the tea bagger movement if they disguise their hate for 'brownie' with politically correct speech..

[redzero]

Wait, what are you talking about now? Why are you bringing up the tea party in the first place? This is about Loughner, right? Is there any evidence to suggest that he was pushed over the edge by violent rhetoric?

[Yonivore]

Wait, what are you talking about now? Why are you bringing up the tea party in the first place? This is about Loughner, right? Is there any evidence to suggest that he was pushed over the edge by violent rhetoric?
No but, Nbadan is stuck on stupid. I guess he awaiting orders from the Mother Ship.

[Nbadan]

Wait, what are you talking about now? Why are you bringing up the tea party in the first place? This is about Loughner, right? Is there any evidence to suggest that he was pushed over the edge by violent rhetoric?

Have you even read my last few posts?

YES!

[Nbadan]

No but, Nbadan is stuck on stupid. I guess he awaiting orders from the Mother Ship.

reap what you sow..

http://images2.cpcache.com/product/9126732v0_480x480_Front_Color-BlackWhite.jpg

[redzero]

Have you even read my last few posts?

YES!

I have read your entire posts. You posted about right wing extremists. You posted about tea baggers. You didn't actually post about Loughner though--the person I was asking about.

What about Loughner? Do you have any evidence of what his motives were?

[Yonivore]

reap what you sow..

http://images2.cpcache.com/product/9126732v0_480x480_Front_Color-BlackWhite.jpg

Is this stuff Loughner had on him when he was arrested? No. What they found in a safe at his house were notes and correspondence, relating to Giffords, dating back to 2007.

Dan. Name one act of violence that has been perpetrated in response to the Tea Party's opposition to President Obama's or President Bush's (remember they got their start when opposing the Bailout signed into law by Bush) agendas.

[Nbadan]

Is this stuff Loughner had on him when he was arrested? No. What they found in a safe at his house were notes and correspondence, relating to Giffords, dating back to 2007.

Dan. Name one act of violence that has been perpetrated in response to the Tea Party's opposition to President Obama's or President Bush's (remember they got their start when opposing the Bailout signed into law by Bush) agendas.

:lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5pdwTQ4xA8

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/mesa/story/Caught-on-video-Heckler-roughed-up-at-Mesa-McCain/QeeDYwI4C0-S9fdEQINhgg.cspx


http://s3.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/LVSun-20100924-Anglefight.JPG
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201009240016

[clambake]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

I should make a thread on this retard, MannyIsGod.

Not too long ago he was making fun of me for wanting the country to disallow organizations and "inciteful speech" so it doesn't incite violence among the populace.... so things like this shooting don't happen.

MannyIsGod apparently has had a complete 180, and now finds himself a complete moron. He now agrees with me, even after his "hate cake" posts :lmao:lmao:lmao


These are the things I said that he made fun on August 2010.










and now here he is, saying the country should backlash against people being "irresponsible" with their hate speech because things like this can happen.

:lmao

The sad part about being wise, is that even when you are correct, it takes some people way too long to realize it.

you said to outlaw people talking on their porch. lol

[Yonivore]

:lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5pdwTQ4xA8
Road rage incident against someone who had an Obama/Biden bumper sticker? Exactly what was the Tea Party rhetoric behind that assault?


:lol

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/mesa/story/Caught-on-video-Heckler-roughed-up-at-Mesa-McCain/QeeDYwI4C0-S9fdEQINhgg.cspx
It wasn't the heckler's views, it was the heckling. (by the way, I couldn't find the referenced video at the link.)


:lol
http://s3.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/LVSun-20100924-Anglefight.JPG
The caption says they were fighting over a seat.


:lol

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201009240016
From what I read, this is a story on the above photo.

Dan, why was Ken Gladney nearly beat to death?

[doobs]

..the fact he shot a politician makes it political.....

:lol at the wing-nuts who are whining about liberals turning this 'political'...it's political because a popular politician was shot......hello?

So if her husband had shot her after walking in on her and a paramour, that would be political?

[Yonivore]

So if her husband had shot her after walking in on her and a paramour, that would be political?
You know it...because, she's a politician.

[Yonivore]

Hypocrisy alert!

Sheriff Who Suggested Talk Shows Incited Attack Was Asked by Dems to Apologize for 'Inflammatory' Immigration Remarks (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/sheriff-dupnik-blamed-mentally-ill-and-i)


Arizona’s Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, who on Saturday suggested radio and television talk shows were somehow responsible for inciting a man who may be mentally disturbed to kill six people and wound 13 others, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.), once blamed policymakers for violence in his county because they had stopped institutionalizing mentally ill people.
Seems he knew about this nut for quite a while and failed to act.


Dupnik also suggested that local schools should check the immigration status of students and that many of the social problems in his county were attributable to illegal immigration--remarks that some fellow Democrats cited as “inflammatory” while demanding an apology from the sheriff.

Additionally, Dupnik once told residents in part of his county to buy guns to protect themselves because he did not believe his department, given its limited resources, could adequately do the job themselves.

The Democrats must be cringing now that they've allowed the idiot to be the point man on the "blame-the-tea-party" meme.

Of course, as if that weren't enough hypocrisy...

MoveOn launches campaign against vitriolic language — despite sordid history of using vitriolic language (http://dailycaller.com/2011/01/10/moveon-launches-campaign-against-vitriolic-language-despite-sordid-history-of-using-vitriolic-language/)

[Yonivore]

Here's something for you to digest, Dan.

The progressive “climate of hate:” An illustrated primer, 2000-2010 (http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/)

VIOLENT RHETORIC ON SARAH PALIN FROM NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST CHARLES BLOW (http://althouse.blogspot.com/2010/12/shes-like-ominous-blob-in-horror-films.html)

“violent rhetoric” and JournoList. (http://www.chequerboard.org/2011/01/joseph-welch-thou-shouldst-be-living-at-this-hour-journolist-edition/)

DEATH THREATS AGAINST BUSH AT PROTESTS IGNORED FOR YEARS. (http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621)

Sarah Palin hanged in effigy during 2008 campaign. (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/28/local/me-palineffigy28)

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

I should make a thread on this retard, MannyIsGod.

Not too long ago he was making fun of me for wanting the country to disallow organizations and "inciteful speech" so it doesn't incite violence among the populace.... so things like this shooting don't happen.

MannyIsGod apparently has had a complete 180, and now finds himself a complete moron. He now agrees with me, even after his "hate cake" posts :lmao:lmao:lmao


These are the things I said that he made fun on August 2010.










and now here he is, saying the country should backlash against people being "irresponsible" with their hate speech because things like this can happen.

:lmao

The sad part about being wise, is that even when you are correct, it takes some people way too long to realize it.

I know you're slow. I know you can't make very important distinctions. I know its not your fault you can't comprehend certain things.

You want it to be illegal. Do I?

I'll give you a few months to mull that over.

Thanks.

[Winehole23]

MH may not be back for a few months. I doubt he'll be alive to the distinction then, either.

(That was a weird little jag he went on.)

[rascal]

Okay, I looked at your quote. It mentioned right wing extremism. Great.

Now make the connection between Loughner and right wing extremism. Please.

Anti government

[boutons_deux]

"Anti government"

oops, please don't be so obvious. :)

(libertarian) currency rants, paranoia (his was maybe real, the right's is certainly fabricated).

[boutons_deux]

yes, Yoni, the poor, defenseless, screwed victimized right.

The right is always and honorably elevating the level of national political/social discourse while the center and left is always spewing hate, lies, violence, slander, paranoia.

False equivalence, as always.

Michelle Malkin? :lol :lol :lol

[MiamiHeat]

MH may not be back for a few months. I doubt he'll be alive to the distinction then, either.

(That was a weird little jag he went on.)

Why wouldn't I be back, and why wouldn't I be alive? Please explain :flag:

And the distinction is irrelevant. It's semantics. The essence of the argument is what I am getting at, and it's the same. However, one is effective in stopping it, and the other is a "public backlash" garbage that wouldn't change anything.

The feeling is the same. It shouldn't be allowed. I just have enough balls and intelligence to take the next step. Anything lower than that won't fix it.

If you disagree, then you need another few months to realize the rest of it. You've come halfway already.

[redzero]

Anti government

:lol

Is that it? He shares one thing in common with right wing extremists, therefore making him one?

This is too rich. The reaching that is being done to connect this mentally unstable pothead, "conscience dreamer," who love Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto to right wing extremism is truly hilarious.

:rollin

People playing the blame game before the bodies are even cold. That's politics for ya.

[ChuckD]

Why wouldn't I be back, and why wouldn't I be alive? Please explain :flag:

And the distinction is irrelevant. It's semantics. The essence of the argument is what I am getting at, and it's the same. However, one is effective in stopping it, and the other is a "public backlash" garbage that wouldn't change anything.

The feeling is the same. It shouldn't be allowed. I just have enough balls and intelligence to take the next step. Anything lower than that won't fix it.

If you disagree, then you need another few months to realize the rest of it. You've come halfway already.

You're young and stupid, but eventually, you'll realize that it will take a Constitutional amendment to overturn free speech, which is damn near impossible to pull of in this fractious age, and that making something illegal doesn't stop it, it only drives it underground to fester and grow.

[DarrinS]

campaign -- A series of military operations undertaken to achieve a large-scale objective during a war

war room

battleground states


Politics is full of war metaphors, so Palin's "crosshairs" is nothing new. Even Daily Kos site used a "bullseye" metaphor back in 2008 when they "targeted" Giffords for defeat.

[Giuseppe]

Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”
Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose a## to kick.“
Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”
Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”.

Barry Obama

[ElNono]

“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

...followed by...

"What I want to do, though, is channel our anger in a constructive way.”

(Not that the stupid rhetoric doesn't come from that side too. But if you're going to post excerpts, post them in context)

[BlairForceDejuan]

ha! Crazy mass murderers don't do context.

[Giuseppe]

“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

...followed by...

"What I want to do, though, is channel our anger in a constructive way.”

(Not that the stupid rhetoric doesn't come from that side too. But if you're going to post excerpts, post them in context)

How bout when Hussein Obama advised his mob to bring a gun to trump our knives?

[RandomGuy]

“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

...followed by...

"What I want to do, though, is channel our anger in a constructive way.”

(Not that the stupid rhetoric doesn't come from that side too. But if you're going to post excerpts, post them in context)

Since when does context matter to the right-wing in this country?

There is a narrative to be told, dammit! :ihit

Of course, this thread is all about that, and I am just as guilty as anyone on the left for pushing the particular narrative concerning the overall tone of right-wing rhetoric.

That said, there is a line between the rather deliberate act of only using half a quote to make your case, a rather obvious attempt to use half-truths to mislead, and generally suspecting that *somehow* the tone of rhetoric in this country might make such things more likely.

In this case, it seems fairly obvious that this guy is a drugged/whacked out nutbag of no particular political stripe and with genuine mental problems.

I still am personally convinced that the general level of anti-goverment vitriol on the right will make some slightly deranged rightie somewhere out of the tens of millions snap at some point and do something quite obviously politically motivated and murderous.

In any given population there is always the crazy segment, and encouraging them to be more crazy/angry is not the best way to go.

[RandomGuy]

How bout when Hussein Obama advised his mob to bring a gun to trump our knives?

He was quoting from a movie, goober. "that's the chicago way", to finish the quote, a reference to the violence of the Al Capone era.

References to violence are stupid no matter who does them. Easy.

That said, I am not going to really hold someone accountable for telling his supporters to get out there and "fight" for what they believe in.

[TeyshaBlue]

Since when does context matter to the right-wing in this country?

There is a narrative to be told, dammit! :ihit

Of course, this thread is all about that, and I am just as guilty as anyone on the left for pushing the particular narrative concerning the overall tone of right-wing rhetoric.

That said, there is a line between the rather deliberate act of only using half a quote to make your case, a rather obvious attempt to use half-truths to mislead, and generally suspecting that *somehow* the tone of rhetoric in this country might make such things more likely.

In this case, it seems fairly obvious that this guy is a drugged/whacked out nutbag of no particular political stripe and with genuine mental problems.

I still am personally convinced that the general level of anti-goverment vitriol on the right will make some slightly deranged rightie somewhere out of the tens of millions snap at some point and do something quite obviously politically motivated and murderous.

In any given population there is always the crazy segment, and encouraging them to be more crazy/angry is not the best way to go.

That's the thing about crazy people. They don't do what you tell them to.

Me: Hey there Mr. Crazy Nutbar Shooting Guy. I really wish you'd just calm down and not carry that gun around.
Mr. CNSG: Your squirrel is wearing pink parachute pants. Now let's Mambo.

[TeyshaBlue]

This dude is tougher than I am.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/100071227/john-green-father-of-nine-year-old-shooting-victim-tuscon-such-a-wonderful-city/

[Drachen]

"Christians", ya gotta respek their fortitude.

Westboro Baptist Church To Picket Funerals Of Arizona Shooting Victims

Your federal judge is dead and your (fag-promoting, baby-killing, proud-sinner) Congresswoman fights for her life. God is avenging Himself on this rebellious house! WBC prays for your destruction--more shooters, more dead carcasses piling up, young, old, leader and commoner--all. Your doom is upon you!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html?view=print#

Counter protest is being organized... Good. They (westboro) have targeted the 9 year old's funeral as their top priority.

"They're planning an "angel action" -- with 8- by 10-foot "angel wings" worn by participants and used to shield mourners from pickets."

Link to full story (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html?hpt=T1)

[DarrinS]

I still am personally convinced that the general level of anti-goverment vitriol on the right will make some slightly deranged rightie somewhere out of the tens of millions snap at some point and do something quite obviously politically motivated and murderous.



So is the MSM. They've been beating this drum for two years. That's why Mayor Bloomberg and Katie Couric have exchanges like this, without having all the facts:


KATIE COURIC: Law enforcement officials don't know who left the Nissan Pathfinder behind, but, at this point, the mayor believes the suspect acted alone.

MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG: If I had to guess 25 cents, this would be exactly that, somebody-

COURIC TO BLOOMBERG: A home-grown?

BLOOMBERG: Home-grown, maybe a mentally deranged person or somebody with a political agenda that doesn't like the health care bill or something. It could be anything.


(strangely, they never thought about an Islamic extremist)



The left has been spewing this meme for two years. Sadly, people like Manny not only sip this Kool Aid, they chug it.

[DarrinS]

Shooter registered as independent and didn't vote in 2008 election.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/house/jared-lee-loughner-was-a-regis.html

[BlairForceDejuan]

Paranoia of authority? What a loon. You'd think this nutcase was born in a country whose historical foundation this was a part of. These foreign thinking anti-government looneytunes are real outsiders tbh.

[Bartleby]

Politics is full of war metaphors, so Palin's "crosshairs" is nothing new.


They're not crosshairs--they're "surveyor's symbols."

[clambake]

its funny how fox is attacking the president before he's even said anything.

[RandomGuy]

general level of anti-goverment vitriol on the right


So is the MSM. They've been beating this drum for two years. That's why Mayor Bloomberg and Katie Couric have exchanges like this, without having all the facts:

The left has been spewing this meme for two years. Sadly, people like Manny not only sip this Kool Aid, they chug it.

:lol You, of all people, accusing anyone of drinking the Kool aid.

I got my recommended daily allowance of hypocrisy already, and it isn't even noon.

[rascal]

So is the MSM. They've been beating this drum for two years. That's why Mayor Bloomberg and Katie Couric have exchanges like this, without having all the facts:


KATIE COURIC: Law enforcement officials don't know who left the Nissan Pathfinder behind, but, at this point, the mayor believes the suspect acted alone.

MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG: If I had to guess 25 cents, this would be exactly that, somebody-

COURIC TO BLOOMBERG: A home-grown?

BLOOMBERG: Home-grown, maybe a mentally deranged person or somebody with a political agenda that doesn't like the health care bill or something. It could be anything.


(strangely, they never thought about an Islamic extremist)



The left has been spewing this meme for two years. Sadly, people like Manny not only sip this Kool Aid, they chug it.

They were questioning about the possibility that it was home grown thats why there was no mention of an Islamic extremist in this short piece.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yeah. Couric was really interested in exploring those avenues. That's why she cut off Bloomberg mid-sentence to add "home-grown".

[Winehole23]

And the distinction is irrelevant. It's semantics. The essence of the argument is what I am getting at, and it's the same. However, one is effective in stopping it, and the other is a "public backlash" garbage that wouldn't change anything.

The feeling is the same. It shouldn't be allowed. I just have enough balls and intelligence to take the next step. Anything lower than that won't fix it.Free speech, man. The Constitution isn't just a piece of paper.


If you disagree, then you need another few months to realize the rest of it. You've come halfway already.No, I haven't. I'm completely against further speech restrictions.

[Winehole23]

This shouldn't happen in this country, or anywhere else, but in a free society, we're going to be subject to people like this. I prefer this to the alternative.

[Winehole23]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/galleries/arizona_shooting_rampage_victims/arizona_shooting_rampage_victims.html

[Wild Cobra]

Shooter registered as independent and didn't vote in 2008 election.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/house/jared-lee-loughner-was-a-regis.html
These liberals don't realize, his party is the occult.