The Art of War - Egyptian Uprising

[Koolaid_Man]

Just look at what's transpiring in Egypt right now. Most people involved in an uprising haven't a clue as to how it should be done... if I was protesting against the government and it was literally do or die - take a bullet, the first thing I'd do is divide and conquer...how is this done? well the military has families I'm sure if they went home to no families they might just rethink their loyalties to the government. It's just a strategy , Art of War, just saying....

Right now they're just getting picked off like simple ducklings...

[Drachen]

Peaceful Protesters who are being attacked gain the sympathy of an ever greater share of the populace eventually leading to an unignorable force. Protesters who go and kidnap/kill families of the police gain the vitriol of an ever greater share of the populace eventually leading to being crushed.

[Koolaid_Man]

Peaceful Protesters who are being attacked gain the sympathy of an ever greater share of the populace eventually leading to an unignorable force. Protesters who go and kidnap/kill families of the police gain the vitriol of an ever greater share of the populace eventually leading to being crushed.


:lol in the US maybe...but see in Muslim lands that's not really bound to happen when you're dealing with Totalitarian regimes...it's do or die it isn't a Democracy and it's not likely the West will intervene...perhaps when thousands start to die the UN may take a look at the situation...

[Drachen]

To win you need either the guns or the numbers (here or there) and you are suggesting that the protesters go head to head against those with the guns before they have the numbers. Strategically, this is a horrible plan.

[vy65]

Just look at what's transpiring in Egypt right now. Most people involved in an uprising haven't a clue as to how it should be done... if I was protesting against the government and it was literally do or die - take a bullet, the first thing I'd do is divide and conquer...how is this done? well the military has families I'm sure if they went home to no families they might just rethink their loyalties to the government. It's just a strategy , Art of War, just saying....

Right now they're just getting picked off like simple ducklings...

You have a profound grasp of The Way

[FalleNxWiZarDx]

thx god this will never happend here in San Antonio

[RandomGuy]

Protesters chase police from main Cairo square

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt_protest


CAIRO – Thousands of anti-government protesters wielding rocks, glass and sticks chased hundreds of riot police away from the main square in downtown Cairo and several of the policemen stripped off their uniforms and badges and joined the demonstrators.

An Associated Press reporter saw the protesters cheering the police who joined them and hoisting them on their shoulders in one of the many dramatic and chaotic scenes across Egypt on Friday.

After chasing the police, thousands of protesters were able to flood into the huge Tahrir Square downtown after being kept out most of the day by a very heavy police presence. Few police could be seen around the square after the confrontation.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

The Iranian government effectively crushed its own popular movement after their fraudulent election. (one larger town had more votes for the government candidates than it had people)

Now that Tunisia has ousted its leader, I wonder if Iran will see protests again.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Where_is_my_vote%3F.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Just look at what's transpiring in Egypt right now. Most people involved in an uprising haven't a clue as to how it should be done... if I was protesting against the government and it was literally do or die - take a bullet, the first thing I'd do is divide and conquer...how is this done? well the military has families I'm sure if they went home to no families they might just rethink their loyalties to the government. It's just a strategy , Art of War, just saying....

Right now they're just getting picked off like simple ducklings...

The big question is always what will the military do.

Once these things get rolling police tend to be simply outnumbered. The retreat of the police from the main Cairo square is an example of that.

Time to stay glued to the news, heh.

[z0sa]

I'm sure there's plenty of revolutionary leaders who would like Koolaid. He would make a great conscript during a real revolution with his readiness to give his life for the cause early in the affair while possessing little weaponry. A little social influence is all the ammo Kool needs. He could realistically be an effective meat shield for the smarter peeps whose intellect is needed to run the country when things are overturned.

[RandomGuy]

I'm sure there's plenty of revolutionary leaders who would like Koolaid. He would make a great conscript during a real revolution with his readiness to give his life for the cause early in the affair while possessing little weaponry. Effectively becoming a meat shield for the smarter peeps whose intellect is needed to run the country when things are overturned.

Did you read what one of the main causes of the Tunisian uprising was?

Some guy, after being humiliated in public by security forces, marched over to city hall and set himself on fire.

That kinda shocked a lot of people into action.

Never underestimate the power of moral authority. This point was made earlier in the thread, and is as true today as it was when it was successfully used by Ghandi, MLK, Jr, and the Irish to end the Troubles.

[z0sa]

Setting yourself on fire sounds more like shock and awe than setting an example as some moral authority. Although I agree "legitimate" moral authorities like religious leaders have massive impacts on any people's revolution.

[RandomGuy]

Setting yourself on fire sounds more like shock and awe than setting an example as some moral authority. Although I agree "legitimate" moral authorities like religious leaders have massive impacts on any people's revolution.

Suicide bombers also get "shock and awe" with their deaths.

Compare these statements:


I am willing to die in a horrible, painful way, because of my cause, but won't hurt anyone else.


I am willing to die in a horrible way, because of my cause, but will also purposefully kill and injure as many people as possible. If anyone innocent gets in the way, I accept that.


I am willing to brave water cannons, beatings, and police dogs for my cause, but will not raise a hand against this violence.


Shock and awe yes, but not hurting anybody else in the process creates moral authority.

[TeyshaBlue]

AJZ has a live feed up.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

[TeyshaBlue]

Interesting dynamic developing between the protesters and the military? Protesters cheering the appearance of tanks.....crewmen emerging from tanks to shake hands.

[z0sa]

I think it was inspirational in nature, RG, but a dude setting himself on fire to show how bullshit the regime is doesn't strike me as much as a moral authority as simply, an example. He said, "I'm willing to die by my own hand than live with the state as governed."

Is it an appeal to moral principles? Perhaps, but the enslaved and oppressed rarely contemplate the moral implications of their uprising, instead focusing on the fact they're getting a few or more certain, inalienable rights trampled upon. That is, indeed, the argument of today's suicide bombing extremists.

[Drachen]

The big question is always what will the military do.

Once these things get rolling police tend to be simply outnumbered. The retreat of the police from the main Cairo square is an example of that.

Time to stay glued to the news, heh.

I don't know if you have read or heard this, but apparently the army is expected to side with the people. The protesters are even chanting "Army Army, come and save us"

Edit: Maybe I should finish reading the thread before I post LOL

[RandomGuy]

Interesting dynamic developing between the protesters and the military? Protesters cheering the appearance of tanks.....crewmen emerging from tanks to shake hands.

A couple of things spring to mind immediately.

Reminds me of the way the Yeltsin climbed on the top of the tank to give a speech when the Red Army was sent to seize the White House after the USSR fell. Yes Russia has a White House.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House,_Moscow

If you are old enough to remember the fall of the USSR, hardliners attempted a coup to re-impose the old USSR after it was dissolved. The hardliners failed, obviously, because the army wouldn't back them.

It also reminds me of the initial Chinese military response to Tiananmen. The initial army units were units local to the area. They allowed themselves to be flummoxed by very insistant protestors.

http://youoffendmeyouoffendmyfamily.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/tiananmen-man-facing-tank.jpg

After that failed, the Chinese leadership ordered the local units out, then more loyal units from other areas in. Those tank/vehicle crews didn't have any qualms whatsoever about the squishy protestors that tried to stop them.

http://www.cnd.org/June4th/photos/mascr003.gif

I will leave out some of the more graphic pictures available.

Hopefully this ends better than it did for the Chinese students.

[boutons_deux]

http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/

[clambake]

wow. something made in the usa.

[RandomGuy]

http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/

Awesome pictures. The website lives up to its name. Thank you!

If I were one of those police in the pictures having to face that kind of shit, I would suddenly develop a case of the flu. Fuck that, you couldn't pay me enough for that kind of work.

I am surprised that the "plainclothes" police haven't been targeted in any of these pictures. I would think that the hated "thugs" would not be able to operate, but these kinds of paramilitary jackboots worked in Iran.

Fascinating.

[temujin]

The problem in Egypt is that Mubarak is old and has completely lost control of the situation.

Soon the young new Mubarak will emerge and life will move on.

After Tuthmosis III, Amenothep III will be enthroned.

Democratically, of course.

[sickdsm]

Awesome pictures. The website lives up to its name. Thank you!

If I were one of those police in the pictures having to face that kind of shit, I would suddenly develop a case of the flu. Fuck that, you couldn't pay me enough for that kind of work.

I am surprised that the "plainclothes" police haven't been targeted in any of these pictures. I would think that the hated "thugs" would not be able to operate, but these kinds of paramilitary jackboots worked in Iran.

Fascinating.


Agree on both the amazing pictures and your comments.

[The Reckoning]

didnt realize there were so many hot women in egypt :wow

[BlairForceDejuan]

Just look at what's transpiring in Egypt right now. Most people involved in an uprising haven't a clue as to how it should be done... if I was protesting against the government and it was literally do or die - take a bullet, the first thing I'd do is divide and conquer...how is this done? well the military has families I'm sure if they went home to no families they might just rethink their loyalties to the government. It's just a strategy , Art of War, just saying....

Right now they're just getting picked off like simple ducklings...



http://askthetrainer.com/image-files/pai_mei.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

:lol in the US maybe...but see in Muslim lands that's not really bound to happen when you're dealing with Totalitarian regimes...it's do or die it isn't a Democracy and it's not likely the West will intervene...perhaps when thousands start to die the UN may take a look at the situation...

Non-violence is a documented way of inspiring uprisings. It's pretty effective, actually, Gandhi being one of the more famous examples. Christ was a pretty well-known sacrifice as well.

[jack sommerset]

wow. something made in the usa.

Nice one...lol

[LnGrrrR]

Seriously though, with all this uprising in Egypt, where will we send the people we need to torture?

[jack sommerset]

Seriously though, with all this uprising in Egypt, where will we send the people we need to torture?

Gitmo is still open so lets keep it in house.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Coming from a country with plenty of experience in civil unrest and rioting, all I can say is that the mix of curfews, police beating up rioters and the military in the streets means sooner or later the end is near for the current goverment. From what I've seen and read, Mubarak changing his gabinet isn't enough. The protesters are asking for real change in the institutions.

The problem is what comes after. There will be many forces trying to take over the power vacuums that all that rioting creates. A transition into a secular, moderate goverment and democracy? Or an alliance between religious leaders and the military a.k.a. the next Iran?

If the second option happens, shits gonna get even worse in that region.

[MannyIsGod]

Its sad that these protests are breaking out all over the Middle East (add Yemen to the list) and the US government is on the wrong side in each situation.

[baseline bum]

Its sad that these protests are breaking out all over the Middle East (add Yemen to the list) and the US government is on the wrong side in each situation.

No different from Central America in the Reagan era.

[PublicOption]

what I find funny is that ALL the low orbiting satellites that carry the internet and cell phone use to Egypt. were put into space by the USA.

[boutons_deux]

Egypt, Tunisia as UCA partners against terrorism.

I guess they were excluded from the dubya neo-cons' plan for democracy and freedom to break out all in Muslim countries after dubya invaded Iraq for oil.

[ChuckD]

Saudis must be shitting their collective royal pants right about now. If Mubarek falls, they're about the worst/most repressive regime left in the Islam world.

[Capt Bringdown]

Or an alliance between religious leaders and the military a.k.a. the next Iran?

If the second option happens, shits gonna get even worse in that region.

Why, what's so bad about Iran?

[Vici]

Coming from a country with plenty of experience in civil unrest and rioting, all I can say is that the mix of curfews, police beating up rioters and the military in the streets means sooner or later the end is near for the current goverment. From what I've seen and read, Mubarak changing his gabinet isn't enough. The protesters are asking for real change in the institutions.

The problem is what comes after. There will be many forces trying to take over the power vacuums that all that rioting creates. A transition into a secular, moderate goverment and democracy? Or an alliance between religious leaders and the military a.k.a. the next Iran?

If the second option happens, shits gonna get even worse in that region.

There will be no government with strong religious ties. These people are are protesting are mostly young adults who are leftist leaning. A religious government will only create a much bloodier revolution.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I have heard that there is a top-ranking Egyptian military official that has been in Washington DC all week. Possibly even prior to the major uprising.

Also, supposedly wikileaks shows evidence of US interaction and support of the organization that actually started the protests in Egypt.

Perhaps the US being 'flatfooted' in this situation is by design....


Stratfor seems to think that this is not anything more than a changing of the guard in the military. The military still has a stranglehold on the country and the powers-that-be in the military were simply not down with Mubarak anointing his son the successor.
Which I can see working out for Egypt for the short term, seeing as how the protests have been reported as being so personally directed towards Mubarak.

[boutons_deux]

BREAKING: Cairo Is Falling

Reports emerging from Cairo, Egypt, make clear a Mubarak regime in downfall. Apparently the airport in Cairo is jammed, and Mubarak family members are reported to have arrived in London.

The pattern for Egyptian Army units has been one of peacemakers and non-opposition to the protesters. The Egyptian Army appears neutral, but unwilling to crush government opposition.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is reported to have named as first-ever vice president, his intelligence chief Omar Suleiman. Suleiman appears positioned for a bid as successor to Mubarak. Whether or not such a succession would be viable in light of opposition developments is unclear. Observers speculate that Suleiman may conversely be focused on preserving the Mubarak regime's control even if Mubarak himself flees.

Multiple reports of government-loyal family members fleeing Egypt for safe havens in Europe and the Middle East paint a portrait of a regime in its last throes.

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/330-131/4784-breaking-cairo-is-falling

==========

Much like his American counterparts, the oligarchic kleptocrat gets away with his ripped off $Bs, much of it US taxpayer $, to live out his life in heavily armed luxury.

Please list there the "democracy loving" Repugs and neo-cons who said Love, Peace, Happiness Democracy would flower in the Arab world after the US established democracy in Iraq AND who are now completely against the overthrow of Mubarak non-democracy:

1. John Bolton
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/29/no-caring-democracy-bolton/

2. McCotter
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/29/mccotter-must-stand-egypt/

3. etc, etc.

Now list the Repugs and neo-cons who, before Mubarak fell, were publicly for his downfall. (there may be a couple Repug/neo-con band wagoners, but most will remain silent)

1.

2.

3.

====

Paraphrasing imperialist Lord Palmerston: "countries don't have friends, only interests"

and the interest of America is not democracy (Just Another Big Lie Americans tell themselves), but in making the world safe, compliant, even subservient, enslaved to America's money and corporations. Mubarak's Egypt was a huge 30-year market for MIC's goods.

[DarkReign]

So, bets on Egypt's transition to a theocracy?

Call it 50/50? 60/40 for? 30/70 against?

[MannyIsGod]

Unlikely. Why would you expect them to transition to a theocracy other than the fact that the population is mostly Muslim?

[boutons_deux]

Like with the US/UK/CIA compromising a corrupt/autocratic Iran under the Shah, the US supporting Murbarak for decades assures that if a real people's govt takes over, theocratic or secular, it won't be friendly to US.

[desflood]

I envision a future for the U.S. much like Egypt's present - except that by then not enough of our citizens will have the brains or the balls to stand up and fight like the Egyptians are now.

[boutons_deux]

The Egyptian people could apply the rule:

"the friend (USA) of our enemy (Barak regime) is our enemy".

Oil prices up, stock prices down, what about Suez Canal fees up? 1956 All Over Again?

[boutons_deux]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/242670/thumbs/s-AL-JAZEERA-ENGLISH-large.jpg

Al Jazeera English Blacked Out Across Most Of U.S.

That corporate censorship comes as American diplomats harshly criticize the Egyptian government for blocking Internet communication inside the country and as Egypt attempts to block Al Jazeera from broadcasting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/30/al-jazeera-english-us_n_816030.html?view=print

=========

UCA always gets what it wants.

[MannyIsGod]

Meh, its not blacked out its just not carried. You can watch the live feed online.

[RandomGuy]

So, bets on Egypt's transition to a theocracy?

Call it 50/50? 60/40 for? 30/70 against?

Depends on how one defines theocracy.

I will bet against.

Certain islamist leanings, and that will certainly factor into the way things will shape up, but a straight up theocracy, ala Iran, no.

Likely end up with a change in strongmen, is the most likely out of possible alternatives, followed closely by a weak, corrupt democracy that will get better over time.

[DarrinS]

Unlikely. Why would you expect them to transition to a theocracy other than the fact that the population is mostly Muslim?

[boutons_deux]

Meh, its not blacked out its just not carried. You can watch the live feed online.

irrelevant.

why was AJ taken off most UCA channels?

[Winehole23]

^^^Message board lifer says the internet is irrelevant.



(spit take)

[MannyIsGod]

irrelevant.

why was AJ taken off most UCA channels?

I'm going to guess because its not really an attractive channel for most people. CNN etc don't even do all that well here so I would not expect Al Jazera to do well enough to be included.

[TeyshaBlue]

irrelevant.

why was AJ taken off most UCA channels?


UCA channels?

[Spurminator]

Considering many Americans still think of AJ as a jihad-friendly TV network, it is doubtful that it would generate either the ratings or advertising revenue to stay afloat very long in the US.

Cable companies aren't charity organizations.

[Winehole23]

United Corporations of America, I think. We're all supposed to know he means the USA when he says that.

[TeyshaBlue]

irrelevant.

why was AJ taken off most UCA channels?

lol..it would have to be on the channel before it can be taken off. :lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

United Corporations of America, I think. We're all supposed to know he means the USA when he says that.

I need a bouton's Schticktionary to keep up with his rants.:lol

[DarkReign]

Unlikely. Why would you expect them to transition to a theocracy other than the fact that the population is mostly Muslim?

Like you said, mostly Muslim population, but more importantly the power vacuum needing to be filled. Does Egypt have a properly organized minority party to fill that void? I dont know, serious question.

Organization is of utmost importance as the soon-to-be-former president trots through the last steps of his very long waltz.

Seeing as the autocrat has been in power for 30+ years and the dissenters specifically chanted the president's name for ouster along with the Interior Minister (?) for the brutal methods employed by the administration to quell political movements, I'd fancy a guess that there is no organized political party to take the reins of power after his ouster.

Again, I dont know that to be the case, but look at Iraq's shit storm once a brutal dictator like Sadaam was removed. Granted, Iraq has a very proportionate number of minorities that all despise one another for whatever reasons, but I dont think Egypt is some homogeneous society of like minded individuals ready to unite under one common banner, is all.

To me, organization is the first trick in the hat to grab for power in this situation. 30 years under the current regime makes me think that the level of organization required isnt there for Egypt's minority political party/parties.

Yet you cant throw a stone without hitting an imam networked into the largest conglomeration of money and power in the Arab world neatly organized in a big handbook conveniently interpreted by the venerated.

Just a guess.

[MannyIsGod]

There is an opposition group, DW. Actually I think there is more than one but I'm not very well versed on Egyptian politics. I do know, however, that it is not Iran and the likelyhood of a theocratic is not likely.

Much as there are a lot of Christian elements in our government, there will be Islamic influence over theirs. But thats in no way theocracy.

A power vacuum leading to another autocracy wouldn't necessarily lead to theocracy, either. Iraq was anything but a theocracy. The power vacuum can lead to government forms outside of democracy, but a theocracy requires that the vacuum be filled by a group that is essentially a church or primarily fundamentalist. I don't see anyone like that in Egypt that is any position to take power.

[boutons_deux]

"a theocracy requires that the vacuum be filled by a group that is essentially a church or primarily fundamentalist."

and totally authoritarian, like the Catholic Church or Iran.

[SnakeBoy]

I'm not very well versed on Egyptian politics.


I don't see anyone like that in Egypt that is any position to take power.

:lol

Why don't you just follow the lead of those who are versed on Egyptian politics and just say you don't know what is going to happen.

[xeromass]

They got the memo. Hitler=evil.

http://img.rtvslo.si/_up/upload/2011/01/31/64761624_got02_egypt-protest-_0131_11.jpg

[SnakeBoy]

They got the memo. Hitler=evil.

http://img.rtvslo.si/_up/upload/2011/01/31/64761624_got02_egypt-protest-_0131_11.jpg


Must be a Tea Party member.

[boutons_deux]

Some analysts believe the 83-year-old dictator, with his back against the wall, ordered all police forces out of the main cities to undermine the momentum of anti-regime demonstrations. With no police opposition, the euphoric protesters soon dispersed as a shocking rise in crime made security their foremost concern.

"The security vacuum serves Mubarak’s interest as people want to see a quick end to the situation and want law and order restored," explains Moustafa Kamel El-Sayed, professor of political science at Cairo University.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/149738

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

Why don't you just follow the lead of those who are versed on Egyptian politics and just say you don't know what is going to happen.

Because I want to give my baseless and meaningless opinion! :depressed

[DarkReign]

Because I want to give my baseless and meaningless opinion! :depressed

What are rambling about? Im changing the world here.

[SnakeBoy]

Because I want to give my baseless and meaningless opinion! :depressed

Don't feel bad. Glenn Beck just came on and he started with "It's important to understand what's going on in Egypt, maybe I'm wrong but....". So you're in good company.

[MannyIsGod]

Damn you couldn't just dig the knife in but you had to twist that bitch by comparing me to Glen Beck?

[clambake]

thats the ultimate insult. get off the canvas, manny.

[4>0rings]

They got the memo. Hitler=evil.

http://img.rtvslo.si/_up/upload/2011/01/31/64761624_got02_egypt-protest-_0131_11.jpg
Germany is always so far ahead of the US in style and what's in. They had a form of the emo flop and attitude in the 30's and 40's. U.S. just started this mainstream in the late 90's.

[SnakeBoy]

Damn you couldn't just dig the knife in but you had to twist that bitch by comparing me to Glen Beck?

:lol

Tbh, you didn't try to drag Van Jones into what's happening in Egypt so it wasn't really a fair comparison.

[The Reckoning]

apparently he's calling off police in major cities so crime can ravage everything. doesnt look very good at all.


what a POS if that is true

[boutons_deux]

F.A.Q. on U.S. Aid to Egypt: Where Does the Money Go—And Who Decides How It’s Spent?

Egypt gets the most U.S. foreign aid of any country except for Israel. (This doesn't include [2] the money spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.) The amount varies each year and there are many different funding streams, but U.S. foreign assistance to Egypt has averaged just over $2 billion every year since 1979,

According to the State Department, U.S. military aid to Egypt totals over $1.3 billion annually [5] in a stream of funding known as Foreign Military Financing.

that equipment has included [5] fighter jets, tanks, armored personnel carriers, Apache helicopters, anti-aircraft missile batteries and aerial surveillance aircraft.

Egypt can purchase this equipment either through the U.S. military or directly from U.S. defense contractors, and it can do so on credit.

The other group that benefits from this aid arrangement is U.S. defense contractors [11]. As we reported with Sunlight Foundation, contractors including BAE Systems, General Dynamics, General Electric, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin have all done business [12] with the Egyptian government through relationships facilitated by high-powered DC lobbyists.

Funding for programs that promote democracy and good governance through direct funding to NGOs in Egypt averaged about $24 million from fiscal year 1999 to 2009. But these, too, had “limited impact,” due to “a lack of Egyptian government cooperation [16],” :lol :lol

http://www.propublica.org/blog/item/f.a.q.-on-u.s.-aid-to-egypt-where-does-the-money-go-who-decides-how-spent

[SpursNextRomanEmpire]

I'd guess the military will take over and tell Mubarak to step down and leave. The military has had a hand in the past 2 or 3 presidential changeovers. Gamal Nasser and the military pretty much took over the country and put King Farouk on his yacht and sent him off, and then of course the assassination of Sadat by members of the military (even though it was just a small group associated with al-Jihad).

The Muslim Brotherhood is the largest opposition organization in Egypt even though they were banned and outlawed by Nasser, they just run under other political ideologies.

[Danny.Zhu]

I think the US has worried too much about Muslim taking over Egypt. It could work.

[boutons_deux]

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/John_Bolton1.jpg

Bolton: Mubarak’s Downfall Would Mean We Need To Bomb Iran Sooner

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/01/bolton-egypt-iran/

:lol :lol :lol

[DarrinS]

Great article on huffpo


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qanta-ahmed/egypt-ummah-duniyah-roars_b_816706.html

[RandomGuy]

Like you said, mostly Muslim population, but more importantly the power vacuum needing to be filled. Does Egypt have a properly organized minority party to fill that void? I dont know, serious question.

No, no it does not. Opposition parties have been universally banned, jailed, and cheated out of representation.


Organization is of utmost importance as the soon-to-be-former president trots through the last steps of his very long waltz.

Seeing as the autocrat has been in power for 30+ years and the dissenters specifically chanted the president's name for ouster along with the Interior Minister (?) for the brutal methods employed by the administration to quell political movements, I'd fancy a guess that there is no organized political party to take the reins of power after his ouster.

Again, I dont know that to be the case, but look at Iraq's shit storm once a brutal dictator like Sadaam was removed. Granted, Iraq has a very proportionate number of minorities that all despise one another for whatever reasons, but I dont think Egypt is some homogeneous society of like minded individuals ready to unite under one common banner, is all.

To me, organization is the first trick in the hat to grab for power in this situation. 30 years under the current regime makes me think that the level of organization required isnt there for Egypt's minority political party/parties.

Yet you cant throw a stone without hitting an imam networked into the largest conglomeration of money and power in the Arab world neatly organized in a big handbook conveniently interpreted by the venerated.

Just a guess.

Probably a correct one, from what I have been reading.

Egypt, like Iraq, faces rampant official corruption at all levels as the result of dictatorships, and that really puts a damper on economic growth, which is *the* main driver here. Freedom, shmeedom. The population is young and jobless, with more than 60% of the population under 30, and 25-50% unemployment rates.

If they had jobs, they wouldn't be out protesting. :lol

[boutons_deux]

Dubya Pravda News Flash: Egypt Proves Dubya Was Right

(aka, using a blanket of Pravda-worthy revisionist lies to try to cover dubya's pile of shit)

Media Enable Former Bushies To Rewrite History On Bush Egypt and "Freedom In The Arab World"

the Bush administration did not target Egypt as part of its so-called Middle East "freedom agenda," but rather, they relied on Egypt to help them to implement it. Despite the occasional criticism of Murabak's suppression of political opposition, they by no means held Egypt up as an "Arab" "dictatorship" that needed to forge the path to democracy. Indeed, the Bush administration far more consistently pointed to Egypt as the potential Middle Eastern model of democracy.

http://www.truth-out.org/print/67337

[RandomGuy]

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/John_Bolton1.jpg

Bolton: Mubarak’s Downfall Would Mean We Need To Bomb Iran Sooner

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/01/bolton-egypt-iran/

:lol :lol :lol

:lol Bolton.

What a maroon. He's like the embarassing uncle at family gatherings that won't stop talking to himself, and will tell you all about how the Chinese are going to invade Panama.

[boutons_deux]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/243175/thumbs/r-NEW-JORDAN-GOVERNMENT-large570.jpg

New Jordan Government: King Abdullah II Dismisses Government

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/01/new-jordan-government-king-abdullah-ii_n_816755.html?view=print

[boutons_deux]

China seeing the possibilities.

#Egypt Blocked in China

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/egypt-blocked-in-china-is-internet-access-a-human-right/15746?tag=nl.e539

[RandomGuy]

The men of Qasr el-Aini Street (http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/01/31/the_men_of_qasr_el_aini_street)

A quick primer on current understanding of the Muslim Brotherhood, fwiw.

The foreign policy journal, unsurprisingly, has a lot of good material if anyone wants to read up.

One can find the deluded take of Iran's current leaders who see Tunisia/Egypt as a remake of their 1979 revolution to overthrow "US imperialism", rather than the 2009 Green Revolution. They seem to seriously think that their crushing of the Green Revolution was simply another "US plot" foiled by diligent security forces.

[DarkReign]

Reading this when I get home.

[LnGrrrR]

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/John_Bolton1.jpg

Bolton: Mubarak’s Downfall Would Mean We Need To Bomb Iran Sooner

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/01/bolton-egypt-iran/

:lol :lol :lol

:lol Bolton is so predictable. Next headline will be something like "My kid ate Cheerios with sugar today, it means we must bomb Iran! YEARGH!"

[BlairForceDejuan]

LOLOLOLOL World Police

Feels good pissing away billions to fund Muslim Brochachos with a nice army. Can't wait to vote in the next idiot Rep/Dem and do it again! :downspin:

[ChumpDumper]

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/John_Bolton1.jpg

Bolton: Mubarak’s Downfall Would Mean We Need To Bomb Iran Sooner

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/01/bolton-egypt-iran/

:lol :lol :lolWants to be president, of course.

[024]

the iranian revolution against the shah was a mostly secular movement as well. the protesters gained the support of the islamic clerics but it was mostly an uprising by students and middle class iranians. when iran wrote its new constitution, the clerics surprised most of the iranian revolutionaries by staging a small coup and turning iran into a theocracy with khomeini at the top. while the muslim brotherhood do not enjoy the same religious legitimacy as the iranian ayatollahs, there is still a risk of some a secondary coup that would strengthen the brotherhood's influence in egyptian politics. however, egpyt had always been more of a nationalist state. the opposition leaders are more socialist and nationalist than religious. i doubt the egyptians would allow a theocracy to rise.

most likely scenario would be an interim government composed of the current vice president and senior military officers with eventual elections that carry the socialists into power. the ruling coalition will be more anti-american and anti-israel but would also not ally itself to extreme religious groups. the muslim brotherhood would be finally free to operate without looking over the shoulders and maybe form some kind of deal with the ruling coalition.

a worst case scenario would be a fractured nation trying to create a democracy that just won't work. there will be too much infighting, corruption, and broken alliances that the military will have to step in and rule the country for a while. or the muslim brotherhood rapidly regains its influence and seizes the opportunity to grab power. highly unlikely though because the base of power in egypt has always been the military and the military seems to be tacitly supporting the secular protesters. if another dictatorship is to arise from all this then it would be on of military rule.

in any case, the US and israel need to prepare for a less friendly egypt.

[LnGrrrR]

Wants to be president, of course.

Better shave the 'stache then. Quick, who was the last President with a 'stache elected?

[ChumpDumper]

Better shave the 'stache then. Quick, who was the last President with a 'stache elected?Why, Thomas Dewey of course.

[LnGrrrR]

Why, Thomas Dewey of course.

Pshaw. Almost-presidents don't count. :lol

[LnGrrrR]

Ha! Proving that every original thought was already thought by someone else on the internet...

http://www.good.is/post/can-a-man-with-a-mustache-be-president/

[Yonivore]

Better shave the 'stache then. Quick, who was the last President with a 'stache elected?
Was it Teddy Roosevelt?

[ChumpDumper]

Close.

[The Reckoning]

taft?

[MannyIsGod]

Shits really getting crazy today.

[Yonivore]

Syria and Jordan autocrats are frantically finagling to keep their day jobs.

[boutons_deux]

Shits really getting crazy today.

Come on, Manny, Repug/conservatives have been batshit crazy for decades.

It's going to get worse, unstoppably.

98% of America is fucked by the vampire-squid VRWC, like it was in the 1920s and Robber Baron era, and it's unfuckable.

Too much money and power in too many sinister hands that control government.

[boutons_deux]

"Mubarak’s regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? Mostly to U.S. corporations. I asked William Hartung of the New America Foundation to explain:

“It’s a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.”

Hartung just published a book, “Prophets of War: Lockheed Martin and the Making of the Military-Industrial Complex.” He went on: “Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. Taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.”"

http://www.truthdig.com/report/print/when_corporations_choose_despots_over_democracy_20 110201/

===========

In fact, the American Empire is really just the VRWC, MIC division, sucking US taxpayer pockets dry while burdening US citizens with $Ts in debt. Guess to whom the US pays the $B100s in national debt interest? yep, capitalists who had enough capital to buy US bonds.

[MannyIsGod]

Syria and Jordan autocrats are frantically finagling to keep their day jobs.

The same autocrats endlessly supported by our government?

The US loves their dictators because they keep shit "stable" and it doesn't care if it comes at the expense of other peoples freedoms and then the people in this country wonder why shit happens here directed by groups from that general area.

:sleep

They hate our freedoms
-George Bush future Mt Rushmore President

No, they hate us because they're NOT free and we have a hand in that.

[MannyIsGod]

From Al Jazera's live blog:

3:22pm Protesters in Tahrir Square shows the Al Jazeera camera the ID cards of accused plain clothed security (police ID) who came in earlier to create chaos.

Shocking that the violence is being caused by government operatives.

[MannyIsGod]

The Google response to all of this has been pretty amazing. Their Speak to Tweet service is awesome.

http://www.google.com/crisisresponse/egypt.html

[Yonivore]

The same autocrats endlessly supported by our government?
When choosing between two evils you pick the one that best serves your own purposes.

See Iran: Shah or Mad Mullahs? We picked Shah because, well, we've seen the evil wrought by the Ayatollahs over the past 30 years.

Same story in Egypt. Mubarek or Muslim Brotherhood?

And on and on and on.


The US loves their dictators because they keep shit "stable" and it doesn't care if it comes at the expense of other peoples freedoms and then the people in this country wonder why shit happens here directed by groups from that general area.
Yeah, the Iranians are so much better off now.


:sleep

They hate our freedoms
-George Bush future Mt Rushmore President

No, they hate us because they're NOT free and we have a hand in that.
If you think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to be better for Egypt, you're an idiot.

Obama's foreign policy is doing the same thing to Egypt that Jimmy Carter's did to Iran.

[MannyIsGod]

Justify and rationalize however you want just don't be surprised when you get stung by the hornets from the nest you kicked.

[MannyIsGod]

If you think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to be better for Egypt, you're an idiot.



This statement is all thats wrong with your mindset. Its not up to you to decide whats best for them. That is what you don't get. Let them fucking decide their own fate.

[The Reckoning]

its not our business who is "better off." its all relative. they probably believe theyre better off than us. doesnt mean shit.

that said, we just want investment in the middle east and have our sticky little fingers controlling almost every economic entity out there - then we try to say we're doing it because of "freedom." that's why they hate us.

[Yonivore]

This statement is all thats wrong with your mindset. Its not up to you to decide whats best for them. That is what you don't get. Let them fucking decide their own fate.
Except that their fate is liable to engulf ours.

Iran has been arming and facilitating our enemies since the Ayatollahs took over. The Muslim Brotherhood vows to destroy the West.

[MannyIsGod]

Yonivore is trying to say he was playing with matches in order to put out the fire that playing with matches started. Nice.

[ChumpDumper]

When choosing between two evils you pick the one that best serves your own purposes.

See Iran: Shah or Mad Mullahs? We picked Shah because, well, we've seen the evil wrought by the Ayatollahs over the past 30 years.Actually in the 50s the choice was the dictator in the Shah or a fledgling democracy. the US overthrew the democracy and went with the dictator. For some silly reason, the Iranians still remember that and hold it against the US.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HyyDHyAwI6k/SvtTEwL-76I/AAAAAAAAHBY/XppD2c9DsC4/s400/mossadegh.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

its not our business who is "better off." its all relative. they probably believe theyre better off than us. doesnt mean shit.

that said, we just want investment in the middle east and have our sticky little fingers controlling almost every economic entity out there - then we try to say we're doing it because of "freedom." that's why they hate us.


Actually in the 50s the choice was the dictator in the Shah or a fledgling democracy. the US overthrew the democracy and went with the dictator; for some silly reason, the Iranians still remember that and hold that against the US.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HyyDHyAwI6k/SvtTEwL-76I/AAAAAAAAHBY/XppD2c9DsC4/s400/mossadegh.jpg

Ding Ding Ding.

[Yonivore]

Ding Ding Ding.
That's what happens when you nationalize [steal] a foreign country's assets.

[boutons_deux]

"We picked Shah because, well, we've seen the evil wrought by the Ayatollahs over the past 30 years."

You Fucking Lie

When the democratically elected Mossadegh talked about nationalizing UK/US oil so it benefited Iranian people, the CIA overthrew him and installed the Shah. There were no mad mullahs to choose against. It was all about predatory UK/US oilcos.

US/UK invading Iraq was just getting back in where Saddam had excluded. It was All About Oil, not about US/UK/WMD/M-E stabiltiy, security, yadda, yadda.

[ChumpDumper]

That's what happens when you nationalize [steal] a foreign country's assets.Hey genius, they just nationalized it again after deposing the ruthless dictator you supported.

Congratulations, your antidemocratic action bought the oil companies a couple of decades of access and an Islamic revolution. You must be so proud.

Yoni just doesn't like democracy.

[MannyIsGod]

that's what happens when you nationalize [steal] a foreign companies assets.

fyp

[boutons_deux]

It obvious that the US/UK invasions, occupations, overthrows of Muslim countries for their oil CAUSED Muslim terrorism, for those of you ingorants and naives who ask "Why do they hate us?"

[Drachen]

The Google response to all of this has been pretty amazing. Their Speak to Tweet service is awesome.

http://www.google.com/crisisresponse/egypt.html

If I had the developing capabilities I would find a way to try and make each cell phone an ad hoc transmitter/reciever. That way if one guy wants to tweet from tahrir square and the internet and mobile networks are down, it will travel from cell phone to cell phone until it reaches a cell phone that has internet access then upload to the web. Of course people would have to download this app or software in order to be a part of the network as would the guy at the end who has internet service. I would assume it should be possible, but I dont know anything about it.

[MannyIsGod]

That would be a massive coding workaround. I suppose it would be easy on phones that have wifi capabilities but I can't imagine making it work on the actual cell network. Cell phones are by nature transceivers but what you're talking about (I assume - no actually cell phone knowledge) would require a whole different set of instructions than they run on currently (I don't think any phone's OS allows it to communicate to other phones along the same bands used to transmit cell phone data/voice - obviously wifi is a different story).

[Drachen]

That would be a massive coding workaround. I suppose it would be easy on phones that have wifi capabilities but I can't imagine making it work on the actual cell network. Cell phones are by nature transceivers but what you're talking about (I assume - no actually cell phone knowledge) would require a whole different set of instructions than they run on currently (I don't think any phone's OS allows it to communicate to other phones along the same bands used to transmit cell phone data/voice - obviously wifi is a different story).

I was thinking more along the lines of those with wifi, as I assume that if it doesn't have wifi access, that it would be unlikely to accept apps. It would most certainly be more helpful to access the cellular system and with open source mobile OSs, this is likely very easy (for a coder).

[PublicOption]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/2/1/1296601255187/egypt_mubarak_tank.jpg

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I think it's about to pop.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Wesley Crusher has some pretty raw live video right now. They're about to set some dude on fire, I think.

[baseline bum]

Wesley Crusher has some pretty raw live video right now. They're about to set some dude on fire, I think.

Link?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

On tv. I don't have a link. Maybe on their website. <shrugs>

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

i guess Barak had his fingers crossed

[Yonivore]

i guess Barak had his fingers crossed
The man has the best diplomatic team ever assembled...

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

The man has the best diplomatic team ever assembled...

by diplomatic team, you mean protesters right?
jk but fo real......

[ChumpDumper]

What is Obama supposed to do?

[Yonivore]

by diplomatic team, you mean protesters right?
jk but fo real......
Well, we started the week with the Vice President disagreeing with the President and Secretary of State. Then, the President starts agreeing with the Vice President but, it's a psyche -- as he quickly pulls the rug out from under Mubarak. All the while, the actual Diplomat over at State is left wondering what the fuck her boss is up to.

It's clearly too sophisticated for us commoners to understand.

And, of course, Gibbsy says it so Wizard-of-Oz-esque that it can't be explained on television.

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

Barak should step down immediately, just like Barak suggested. one of the few times i have ever agreed with Barak. cause Barak obviously needs to GTFO

[ChumpDumper]

Well, we started the week with the Vice President disagreeing with the President and Secretary of State. Then, the President starts agreeing with the Vice President but, it's a psyche -- as he quickly pulls the rug out from under Mubarak. All the while, the actual Diplomat over at State is left wondering what the fuck her boss is up to.

It's clearly too sophisticated for us commoners to understand.

And, of course, Gibbsy says it so Wizard-of-Oz-esque that it can't be explained on television.Are you for or against this brutal Arab dictator, yoni?

[MannyIsGod]

Holy shit things got really bad last night there.

[greyforest]

haha check this out

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/egypt20211/bp44.jpg

from http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/02/a_harrowing_historic_week_in_e.html

[DarrinS]

I bet they're all singing about how much they love America now that Obama is president.



haha check this out

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/egypt20211/bp44.jpg

from http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/02/a_harrowing_historic_week_in_e.html

[MannyIsGod]

You should check out the polls of Egyptian views of America since Obama came to office.

[Spurminator]

I bet they're not all that concerned about America at the moment.

[MannyIsGod]

They care immensely about America and our governments stance towards their government because most people around the world realize the influence we have.

I'd say the notion that they don't care about America could not be more wrong.

[Wild Cobra]

I bet they're all singing about how much they love America now that Obama is president.
Has to be, with that large of a crowd!

[TeyshaBlue]

They care immensely about America and our governments stance towards their government because most people around the world realize the influence we have.

I'd say the notion that they don't care about America could not be more wrong.

They were hating them some American reporters yesterday, that's for sure.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

What's funny to me is the "heartfelt sentiment" all the liberal and left leaning media outlets have towards the people that are standing up to their current government. Praising them for standing up to them and getting all giddy cuz it's a revolution yet they shit on people that do that here, but on a much smaller scale. There's really no difference at all, minus the violence. At least for now there isn't violence. It's all very laughable. And to think all these "intellectuals" on the left--along with the people that lean more left--that think they know what's right for all the non-lawmakers don't see that parallel. It astounds me, really.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I'm sure how this administration thinks they know what's best for the country, and shuts down anyone ANYONE that has opposite views, is something the egyptians don't think too highly of. Isn't that whats going on there? There's no debate over there. It's the way it is and if you don't like it........tough. You're shut off. The same shit that's going on here.

[Winehole23]

What's funny to me is the "heartfelt sentiment" all the liberal and left leaning media outlets have towards the people that are standing up to their current government. Praising them for standing up to them and getting all giddy cuz it's a revolution yet they shit on people that do that here, but on a much smaller scale. You compare Tea Partiers to Egyptians putting their bodies in the street to confront the power of a dictator? :dramaquee

There's really no difference at all, minus the violence. At least for now there isn't violence....and you compare a belittling press to Mubarak's street thugs. Comedy gold.

It's all very laughable.I'm not a leftist of any kind and I laughed. That's some truly asounding bs, VLE.

[Winehole23]

It's the way it is and if you don't like it........tough. You're shut off. The same shit that's going on here.We're just like Egypt how again? Please be specific. Who got shut off?

[RandomGuy]

They were hating them some American reporters yesterday, that's for sure.

Those were generally pro-Mubarak types who view the unrest as being caused by foreign journalists, to my understanding.

[RandomGuy]

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/110202_Egypt1.jpg

Anti-Mubarak demonstrators break pavement at Tahrir Square to use as projectiles against pro-regime opponents on Feb. 2 (Foreign Policy.com)

[RandomGuy]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/110201_108698865c_b.jpg

Seems a few of them have had enough english to find some choice words. :lol

[RandomGuy]

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/110203_19_108796123.jpg

Many anti-government protesters have returned to their homes since pro-government supporters raided on Feb. 2. Above, Cairo's Tahrir Square on Feb. 3.

This stuff is getting downright medieval. Walls, rocks, battle-lines, medical triage and all.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You compare Tea Partiers to Egyptians putting their bodies in the street to confront the power of a dictator? :dramaquee
...and you compare a belittling press to Mubarak's street thugs. Comedy gold.
I'm not a leftist of any kind and I laughed. That's some truly asounding bs, VLE.

I'm basically speaking about opposing one's government or having a different opinion with one's government. I'm not calling our president a dictator. I'm not comparing tea partiers to the Egyptians. It's simply having a different opinion on how one's country is being ran. That's all I'm getting at.

[Winehole23]

You're walking it back. Smart move.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm basically speaking about opposing one's government or having a different opinion with one's government. I'm not calling our president a dictator. I'm not comparing tea partiers to the Egyptians. It's simply having a different opinion on how one's country is being ran. That's all I'm getting at.

So, it's not really alike at all. :tu

[RandomGuy]

I'm basically speaking about opposing one's government or having a different opinion with one's government. I'm not calling our president a dictator. I'm not comparing tea partiers to the Egyptians. It's simply having a different opinion on how one's country is being ran. That's all I'm getting at.

If you are going to backpeddle, do it right:

http://www.bikeforest.com/unicycle.jpg

...or just admit that's what you really meant, but on second thought it was a bit of a stretch.

Your statement seemed pretty clear to me. It pretty much was a re-statement of other "woe is me, we are such victim" bullshit sentiments on the part of Fox "news" commentators.

Directly equating the left "shitting on" people who protest against the actions of tea partiers protesting our government to what was going on in with oppression in Egypt is exactly what you meant to say.

Lastly, I have little doubt that when left-wing protestors were railing against the US government's decision to invade Iraq, you were there flinging a few turds with the rest of the Fox "news" brigade on people who were expressing differences with their government.

GMAFB

[baseline bum]

Left leaning press? :rollin

The press that's owned by General Electric, Disney, News Corp, CBS, and the like that beat the drum to Bush's invasion of Iraq?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You're walking it back. Smart move.

I'm not walking it back. I can't help it if you don't understand what I meant.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Or the rest of y'all but think what you want.

[boutons_deux]

"think what you want."

thanks!

[DarkReign]

This is just a personal observation, nothing insightful, but to me, it looks like these two sides have serious conviction issues.

IMO, two ways to go about revolution/political change. Peacefully (India, MLK Jr) or violently (basically everything else).

There needs to be a decision made before events even transpire, it also cannot be a combination of both. You are either peaceful or you are violent, no in between.

So, with that said, it would seem the anti-government movement is walking a haphazard path with no clear direction. If its peaceful they want, theyre doing it wrong. They should be on their knees praying toward Mecca endlessly and ceaselessly, never wavering, never returning any violence cast upon them...ever. Sure, a few outbreaks will happen, thats inevitable, but those should be exceptions and completely isolated. Remember the footage of Dr King's marches and sit-ins where the police would turn fire hoses on them at near point blank range? No retaliation, the others just kept praying and singing. It shows the lengths to which you are willing to go without even thinking about pain or violence against another human being. It fosters sympathy for you and your brethren that cannot be ignored by anyone with a heart watching. It may take longer, but it would seem the ends certainly justify the means and you can make a more lasting case for your cause because its pretty obvious you and your group are willing to die for your cause, but wish no harm upon others.

Then there is violence and throwing stones and building walls aint gonna cut it. If youve chosen violence as your means of change OR you feel youve been pushed into a situation where violence is the only answer, then they are seriously lacking in conviction on this matter.

You dont need guns to drive an enemy away under violent terms. What you need is conviction, loyalty and a complete disregard for the enemy as a human being. If your cause is truly worth it and existence without change is no existence at all, without equivocation or temperance, then its time to pull a couple hundred loyalists to the back rows to arm up and hit the front lines with an overwhelming edge of violence and disregard. Broom handles sharpened to a point, sheets of steel sharpened to an edge with rope wrapped as a handle, javelins, baseball bats (cricket bats?), etc, etc. Put a couple hundred of those in the toughest, most single-minded people's hands and send them to the front line and sound the charge. I guarantee the other side will run in total panic after 1-2 minutes of the assault. Keep a reserve near the front line to usher out the wounded/incapacitated and replace them.

A. It will be a surprise. The enemy would never expect it, nor anticipate or have preparations for it. It will be extremely one-sided.

B. It will drive the enemy out of the Square (which seems to be important to the cause, apparently). Once they are out, its time to barricade in so that they cannot return. Even if they do, so long as it isnt a military response, youll have the advantage of high ground, preparation and designed choke points. Any attempt at re-entry by a non-military force will be lambs to a slaughter.

This all assumes that the military is uninvolved. A big assumption, I am aware. If the military is involved, all bets are off.

I want to make it clear that I am not advocating any particular strategy. I am only giving my opinion on the most effective means of instituting a government change to desired magnitude. IMO, both strategies have their pitfalls with the violent means having the most pitfalls, but the higher chance of success. The problem with violence is that it is hard to stop. Once the first real blood is spilled, it probably will not end even after the current government has been defeated. It might be expeditious but its methods are not soon forgotten by the defeated creating long-term problems long after "victory".

Personally, I would suggest a non-violent approach seeing as the military is not involved in either side. Its going to be very tough for the military (from PFCs to Generals) to sit and watch as one side of the protest is clubbing, beating and burning the other side while they are in the middle of an ever-lasting, peaceful prayer to God.

I dont believe the military would stay uninvolved for very long under those circumstances.

[RandomGuy]

I'm not walking it back. I can't help it if you don't understand what I meant.


I'm sure how this administration thinks they know what's best for the country, and shuts down anyone ANYONE that has opposite views, is something the egyptians don't think too highly of. Isn't that whats going on there? There's no debate over there. It's the way it is and if you don't like it........tough. You're shut off. The same shit that's going on here.

I am pretty sure I understand you pretty perfectly.

What is happening over there is "the same shit going on here", but there is violence over there. With the seeming added caveat that the left is trying to shut down the poor defenseless right wing that dares to differ with the president and/or his policies.

As if only the left wing in this country does that.

"Boo hoo, we're victims" is a constant meme in the right wing. Buncha whiny babies.

The funny thing is that the same people who like to play the victim card were the ones lined up to make fun of left-wing protesters who protest "at the drop of a hat", or who were protesting against the decision to invade Iraq.

Were you or were you not flinging your share of turds on left-wing protestors objecting to their government's decision to invade Iraq?

Same tune, different drummer.

[RandomGuy]

This is just a personal observation, nothing insightful, but to me, it looks like these two sides have serious conviction issues.

IMO, two ways to go about revolution/political change. Peacefully (India, MLK Jr) or violently (basically everything else).

There needs to be a decision made before events even transpire, it also cannot be a combination of both. You are either peaceful or you are violent, no in between.

So, with that said, it would seem the anti-government movement is walking a haphazard path with no clear direction. If its peaceful they want, theyre doing it wrong. They should be on their knees praying toward Mecca endlessly and ceaselessly, never wavering, never returning any violence cast upon them...ever. Sure, a few outbreaks will happen, thats inevitable, but those should be exceptions and completely isolated. Remember the footage of Dr King's marches and sit-ins where the police would turn fire hoses on them at near point blank range? No retaliation, the others just kept praying and singing. It shows the lengths to which you are willing to go without even thinking about pain or violence against another human being. It fosters sympathy for you and your brethren that cannot be ignored by anyone with a heart watching. It may take longer, but it would seem the ends certainly justify the means and you can make a more lasting case for your cause because its pretty obvious you and your group are willing to die for your cause, but wish no harm upon others.

Then there is violence and throwing stones and building walls aint gonna cut it. If youve chosen violence as your means of change OR you feel youve been pushed into a situation where violence is the only answer, then they are seriously lacking in conviction on this matter.

You dont need guns to drive an enemy away under violent terms. What you need is conviction, loyalty and a complete disregard for the enemy as a human being. If your cause is truly worth it and existence without change is no existence at all, without equivocation or temperance, then its time to pull a couple hundred loyalists to the back rows to arm up and hit the front lines with an overwhelming edge of violence and disregard. Broom handles sharpened to a point, sheets of steel sharpened to an edge with rope wrapped as a handle, javelins, baseball bats (cricket bats?), etc, etc. Put a couple hundred of those in the toughest, most single-minded people's hands and send them to the front line and sound the charge. I guarantee the other side will run in total panic after 1-2 minutes of the assault. Keep a reserve near the front line to usher out the wounded/incapacitated and replace them.

A. It will be a surprise. The enemy would never expect it, nor anticipate or have preparations for it. It will be extremely one-sided.

B. It will drive the enemy out of the Square (which seems to be important to the cause, apparently). Once they are out, its time to barricade in so that they cannot return. Even if they do, so long as it isnt a military response, youll have the advantage of high ground, preparation and designed choke points. Any attempt at re-entry by a non-military force will be lambs to a slaughter.

This all assumes that the military is uninvolved. A big assumption, I am aware. If the military is involved, all bets are off.

I want to make it clear that I am not advocating any particular strategy. I am only giving my opinion on the most effective means of instituting a government change to desired magnitude. IMO, both strategies have their pitfalls with the violent means having the most pitfalls, but the higher chance of success. The problem with violence is that it is hard to stop. Once the first real blood is spilled, it probably will not end even after the current government has been defeated. It might be expeditious but its methods are not soon forgotten by the defeated creating long-term problems long after "victory".

Personally, I would suggest a non-violent approach seeing as the military is not involved in either side. Its going to be very tough for the military (from PFCs to Generals) to sit and watch as one side of the protest is clubbing, beating and burning the other side while they are in the middle of an ever-lasting, peaceful prayer to God.

I dont believe the military would stay uninvolved for very long under those circumstances.

Well said.

If the Palestinians had a lick of sense, they would forgo explosives and throwing rocks and do the same.

Non-violence and the power of moral authority are far more powerful in moving opinion than many seem to think.

The gentleman who set himself on fire in Tunis is all the proof anybody with some common sense should need about that.

When I say that, if you want to fight al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan, you don't need missles, you need teachers, microloans, and the Corps of Engineers, some people have a hard time wrapping their mind around that.

The principle of persuasion is the same.

You don't fight the idea that you are evil with bullets.

[LnGrrrR]

DR, I think the reason why they aren't coordinated is because they don't know which side the military is going to end up on. I don't think the military knows right now, either.

[in2deep]

What's funny to me is the "heartfelt sentiment" all the liberal and left leaning media outlets have towards the people that are standing up to their current government. Praising them for standing up to them and getting all giddy cuz it's a revolution yet they shit on people that do that here, but on a much smaller scale. There's really no difference at all, minus the violence. At least for now there isn't violence. It's all very laughable. And to think all these "intellectuals" on the left--along with the people that lean more left--that think they know what's right for all the non-lawmakers don't see that parallel. It astounds me, really.

you are comparing Mubarak's reign of oppresion to the United States????

:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, Viva outdid himself today.

Of course, most of the board "conservatives" are looking for a chance to ankle bite Obama over this issue. I really don't see the connection.

[DarrinS]

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/110203_19_108796123.jpg

Many anti-government protesters have returned to their homes since pro-government supporters raided on Feb. 2. Above, Cairo's Tahrir Square on Feb. 3.

This stuff is getting downright medieval. Walls, rocks, battle-lines, medical triage and all.



Getting medieval?


By the way, I like that wall. Did they watch Castaway or something?

[in2deep]

LOL I was actually thinking on coining this new phrase:

Going Mubarak on that ass

[in2deep]

"You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'm gonna get Mubarak on your ass."

[ChumpDumper]

Triage is medieval?

[DarrinS]

Triage is medieval?


They had better weapons in medieval times.

These fucks think rocks are the best thing ever.

And if one of them takes of their shoe, you better watch out.

[RandomGuy]

Triage is medieval?

(laughs) Good point, and one that sort of rattled around in the back of my head as I typed it. I was riffing.

Perhaps "martial" is a better term.

[ChumpDumper]

They had better weapons in medieval times.

These fucks think rocks are the best thing ever.

And if one of them takes of their shoe, you better watch out.None of that had anything to do with triage.

And what else do you think the average protester has access to in Egypt?

[DarrinS]

None of that had anything to do with triage.

And what else do you think the average protester has access to in Egypt?


Prayer rugs?

[cheguevara]

They had better weapons in medieval times.

These fucks think rocks are the best thing ever.

And if one of them takes of their shoe, you better watch out.

hey genius, they obviously are electing to fight at a distance. If they decide not to then you will start seeing body parts flying and ppl hacked to death.

What better projectile than a rock? It ain't the good ol USA where ppl have grenade launchers in their backyard sheds.

[RandomGuy]

They had better weapons in medieval times.

These fucks think rocks are the best thing ever.

And if one of them takes of their shoe, you better watch out.

I was wondering where the slingshots were.

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Sling-Shot

Not that I want to spark an arms race...

http://www.instructables.com/image/FV3JZ8K0VZEP281KYQ/Water-Balloon-Catapult.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Prayer rugs?You're such an idiot.

[RandomGuy]

None of that had anything to do with triage.

And what else do you think the average protester has access to in Egypt?

http://www.instructables.com/image/FU2ZJWDUC3EP281KQD/Gather-materials.jpg

Two words:

Duct.

Tape.

HOOOO-AAHH!!

[RandomGuy]

You will need an old towel, or some sort of rag that you can cut up. You will also need a length of surgical tubing, exercise tubing will work here as well. Lastly, you will need two small scraps of wood and some duct tape. You will also need scissors to cut the rag.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Water-Balloon-Catapult/


That's the real reason that the Egyptian goverment cut off the internet. To keep people from military technology.

[Winehole23]

I'm not walking it back. I can't help it if you don't understand what I meant.You said what you said. I can't help it if you don't say what you really mean.

[boutons_deux]

Yawn. Other Arab govts all support Mubarak.

[DarrinS]

http://www.instructables.com/id/Water-Balloon-Catapult/


That's the real reason that the Egyptian goverment cut off the internet. To keep people from military technology.



Any US teenager worth their salt can build a potato cannon.

[nkdlunch]

so is Friday going to have some action or what? I wanna see some action.

[DarrinS]

so is Friday going to have some action or what? I wanna see some action.


We need to send a giant octagon over there.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't understand why some of you can't just acknowledge that what you first said was a mistake and you now realize it. Is it really that hard to do that? Comparing the tea party to Egypt is just fucking moronic to begin with, but you only make it worse when you act as if everyone's reading comprehension is the problem and not the idiocy you spewed.

[DarkReign]

DR, I think the reason why they aren't coordinated is because they don't know which side the military is going to end up on. I don't think the military knows right now, either.

I agree, but in my uneducated non-Egyptian opinion, a peaceful and ceaseless demonstration of devotion to change, 24/7 in the epicenter of the conflict will sway the military to the anti-government side.

What that means to the US and its interests, I dont know and dont care.

[LnGrrrR]

I agree, but in my uneducated non-Egyptian opinion, a peaceful and ceaseless demonstration of devotion to change, 24/7 in the epicenter of the conflict will sway the military to the anti-government side.

What that means to the US and its interests, I dont know and dont care.

Perhaps, but most of these protests seem to be spur-of-the-moment, not carefully planned out. Given that, you're going to get all sorts of people with different agendas/mindsets on what works best.

Not to mention the criminals who might be stirring stuff up to keep police/military involved with the riots and not other criminal activity.

[DarrinS]

I don't understand why some of you can't just acknowledge that what you first said was a mistake and you now realize it. Is it really that hard to do that? Comparing the tea party to Egypt is just fucking moronic to begin with, but you only make it worse when you act as if everyone's reading comprehension is the problem and not the idiocy you spewed.



Tell that to Chris Matthews.

[Winehole23]

What's Tweety got to do with it?

[RandomGuy]

I agree, but in my uneducated non-Egyptian opinion, a peaceful and ceaseless demonstration of devotion to change, 24/7 in the epicenter of the conflict will sway the military to the anti-government side.

What that means to the US and its interests, I dont know and dont care.

Respecfully, you should care. What happens there has some pretty important implications to US security.

I wish we were a bit less cozy with dictators, because when shit like this happens, you just can't throw your former "friend" under the bus, like his worthless despotic ass deserves.

Instead, we have to tap-dance around the fact that Mubarik needs to GTFO, so we don't discourage our other "friends", who deserve similar fates.

The rational side of me understands the necessity of realpolitik, but the idealistic side says "fuck the consequences, we should live our own self-professed ideals, and tell the despots to suck it, no matter how badly we need them".

[The Reckoning]

some how i can see this uprising being blamed on americans in the long run (by BOTH sides)

[DarrinS]

What's Tweety got to do with it?


He's been comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the Tea Party.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't watch Christ Matthews but anyone who's comparing Egypt to the United States is being really stupid.

[MannyIsGod]

some how i can see this uprising being blamed on americans in the long run (by BOTH sides)

Mubarak won't, but the opposition could easily blame us for keeping him in power.

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

did barak step down yet?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

you are comparing Mubarak's reign of oppresion to the United States????

:lmao

Ummmmm, no.

[ChumpDumper]

What's funny to me is the "heartfelt sentiment" all the liberal and left leaning media outlets have towards the people that are standing up to their current government. Praising them for standing up to them and getting all giddy cuz it's a revolution yet they shit on people that do that here, but on a much smaller scale. There's really no difference at all, minus the violence. At least for now there isn't violence. It's all very laughable. And to think all these "intellectuals" on the left--along with the people that lean more left--that think they know what's right for all the non-lawmakers don't see that parallel. It astounds me, really.


I'm sure how this administration thinks they know what's best for the country, and shuts down anyone ANYONE that has opposite views, is something the egyptians don't think too highly of. Isn't that whats going on there? There's no debate over there. It's the way it is and if you don't like it........tough. You're shut off. The same shit that's going on here.

[DarkReign]

Respecfully, you should care. What happens there has some pretty important implications to US security.

I understand that in the broadest sense only.


I wish we were a bit less cozy with dictators, because when shit like this happens, you just can't throw your former "friend" under the bus, like his worthless despotic ass deserves.

Instead, we have to tap-dance around the fact that Mubarik needs to GTFO, so we don't discourage our other "friends", who deserve similar fates.

...which is where the "I dont care" portion of my statement comes in. The US has propped up its dictators/autocrats for its own selfish interest, speaking from three sides of our mouth about the need for democratic governments the world over.

I realize that even a semi-theocratic or fully democratic Egypt is a boon to American interests and my amateur observation of the situation says that no matter what the outcome in Egypt, America's standing in that region will be weakened.


The rational side of me understands the necessity of realpolitik, but the idealistic side says "fuck the consequences, we should live our own self-professed ideals, and tell the despots to suck it, no matter how badly we need them".

Call me naive, but thats my take as well. Leave these people to their own devices, even if it hampers the US' long-term interests. Stop funding Israel, stop propping up dictators whose only use is to play along with American imperialism in the region.

Pull out and leave them alone for 50 years while they most likely find any reason to kill each other and clean the mess up afterword.

[BlairForceDejuan]

So have we excavated and transported the star gate back to the states yet?

[DarkReign]

So have we excavated and transported the star gate back to the states yet?

Future Egyptian President

http://www.jamati.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/jayedavidson.jpg

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Ok. Mubarak is saying he's stepping down TODAY. Good? Bad?
I think it's going to get more interesting now. I don't have a good feeling about what's going to happen and how it all plays out.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Bueller? Bueller?

Anyway, now Egyptian tv is denying he's stepping down. Could get bloody today.

[DarkReign]

Dont know, but from what I have read, the military is stepping into the power vacuum. Is that temporary or semi-permanent? Dont know.

The military broadcast some-such to the protesters in the Main Square that (paraphrase) your demands will be met very soon. That indicates Mubarak's removal, but to what and to whom?

Ideally, the military takes over on a temporary basis while the politicians hash out a new Constitution and then schedule elections (or something to this effect).

Less ideally and tragically, the military assumes full, permanent control. I gauge this as unlikely seeing as how uninvolved the military was during the "rebellion".

Worst case, another coup by some other interested group that doesnt represent the people. Fundamentalists? It would seem that isnt very likely at all according to some ST folks, but wtf do I know?

[MannyIsGod]

If a coup was going to happen why didn't it already?

[z0sa]

If a coup was going to happen why didn't it already?

Whoever comes to power will need military support. The military has been less than vague as to what or whom exactly they support, besides the general movement against the current government structure.

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, but if someone with enough influence to control the military wanted to act they've had weeks to do so. That they haven't makes you wonder if they will.

[CosmicCowboy]

Dont know, but from what I have read, the military is stepping into the power vacuum. Is that temporary or semi-permanent? Dont know.

The military broadcast some-such to the protesters in the Main Square that (paraphrase) your demands will be met very soon. That indicates Mubarak's removal, but to what and to whom?

Ideally, the military takes over on a temporary basis while the politicians hash out a new Constitution and then schedule elections (or something to this effect).

Less ideally and tragically, the military assumes full, permanent control. I gauge this as unlikely seeing as how uninvolved the military was during the "rebellion".

Worst case, another coup by some other interested group that doesnt represent the people. Fundamentalists? It would seem that isnt very likely at all according to some ST folks, but wtf do I know?

I think the military was just playing it smart. It wasn't like they had a deadline to meet to make a decision...

Had they moved too quickly and Mubarak still survived heads would have literally rolled and he would have gutted the military command structure.

[DarkReign]

Ok, but if someone with enough influence to control the military wanted to act they've had weeks to do so. That they haven't makes you wonder if they will.

I agree, but instability fosters many variables. The longer Mubarak holds off resigning, the more it becomes apparent that someone/some entity needs to remove him. Forcefully if need be.

Mubarak is not relinquishing, his country is at a complete standstill right now and he will not resign.

A coup, to me, is imminent.

[DarkReign]

I think the military was just playing it smart. It wasn't like they had a deadline to meet to make a decision...

Had they moved too quickly and Mubarak still survived heads would have literally rolled and he would have gutted the military command structure.

All good points, more of a biding their time deal where they would just sit on the sidelines and wait for the politicians to sort it out.

Smart, but lazy move.

[jack sommerset]

breaking news......protest hasn't worked.......more rocks to be thrown.....camels loose all over cario

[Winehole23]

a camel-related gambit. How jaunty. What's the weather like in Cario?

[MannyIsGod]

Jack would have mocked the American Revolution before it even got off the ground.

[Winehole23]

Ummmmm, no.To be completely fair, your inference that the political authority in the US is akin to Egypt, wielding its power despotically against an oppressed and terrorized people, was glancing and somewhat elliptical (the bolded ANYONE) to begin with, but the whining was unmistakable.


(sidenote: Glenn Greenwald recently struck a superficially similar theme (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/02/07/egypt/index.html).)

[Winehole23]

As seen on Twitter

Egypt: Uninstalling dictator ... 99% complete
███████████████████████████░ -ERROR-From a mass email.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

[Winehole23]

:depressed

[DarkReign]

Well, it seems Mubarak's VP has handed power over to the military.

[Drachen]

"Egypt is Free!" - Chant in Egypt.

Good Job. Revolution, minimal violence... Hopefully they don't squander this. Now the hard work begins.

[Wild Cobra]

"Egypt is Free!" - Chant in Egypt.

Good Job. Revolution, minimal violence... Hopefully they don't squander this. Now the hard work begins.

Let's just hope that the factions driving the people aren't worse.

[Drachen]

This seems to be completely grass roots. (Though, like you, I can't know that for sure since we aren't actually there).

Also, if we are for democracy, we have to be all the way for democracy. Yes, it would suck if this creates an enemy for us but it kinda boils down to this. Democracy: You are either with it, or against it.

Edit: to further explain, I do not want another enemy, however I believe in the long run the average will of an entire people (democracy) will be far more moderate than the concentrated will of a few.

[boutons_deux]

Mr Mubarak Has Left The Building

... say rumors.

[Drachen]

Mr Mubarak Has Left The Building

... say rumors.

Is rumors the nickname for the country's VP??

[CosmicCowboy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt

Military coup. Thats the best possible result. Their Military staff is pretty much westernized and has lots of cross-pollination relationships with our military from annual exercises...they even worked together in Iraq...

Thats our best chance of avoiding a fundamental/radical Islamic regime change..

[Drachen]

Plus they are supremely trusted by the people. However, they are going to have to make a quick and orderly transition to building a democracy and giving their power back up or I guess the people's trust will likely erode and we will be seeing this again in 2 years.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

All in all a pretty predictable outcome. Too bad for all the peoples exuberance that their situation is no closer to being changed or improved. The military is in control and this fits in perfectly with reports of a high ranking military officer being in washington when this all started. Pretty cool to see a totally grassroots revolution oust a dictator but as usual some other opportunistic faction has just filled the vacuum while the people celebrate.

[Drachen]

All in all a pretty predictable outcome. Too bad for all the peoples exuberance that their situation is no closer to being changed or improved. The military is in control and this fits in perfectly with reports of a high ranking military officer being in washington when this all started. Pretty cool to see a totally grassroots revolution oust a dictator but as usual some other opportunistic faction has just filled the vacuum while the people celebrate.

I would say that the military being in washington would be slightly suspicious if it werent for them cutting their talks short and getting the heck back to Egypt when this broke out. Also the opportunistic faction that just filled the vacuum while the people celebrated is the same opportunistic faction that the people requested fill the vacuum so it is also a part of the grass roots effort.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Military takeover was the most likely outcome regardless of what the people wanted, and if we are to believe the majority of the diverse groups of people wanted the military then that is cause for suspicion right there. The military officials were there prior to the outbreak and you think its a coincidence?
On another note, if this situation stays quiet for two years, the president has a potentially game changing weapon in his re election campaign. Achieving 'peace and democracy' without war and death. Republicans were literally praying this situation became a disaster. Military takeover is not an unfavorable outcome for us given the options.

[Drachen]

Military takeover was the most likely outcome regardless of what the people wanted, and if we are to believe the majority of the diverse groups of people wanted the military then that is cause for suspicion right there.

I would say I believe the majority of the people wanted it as evidenced by the chants from the protesters of "Army please save us", etc. Seems pretty obvious to me.The people are with the military because their military is primarily a mandated military. The people serving in it are not any different than the others on the street. Its not a volunteer military with a culture apart from the general populace.



The military officials were there prior to the outbreak and you think its a coincidence?


Were the Tunisian Military officers there too? Remember, this started in Tunisia, not Egypt.



On another note, if this situation stays quiet for two years, the president has a potentially game changing weapon in his re election campaign. Achieving 'peace and democracy' without war and death. Republicans were literally praying this situation became a disaster. Military takeover is not an unfavorable outcome for us given the options.

I believe that if the military try to hang on for any significant length of time, then this will happen again.

[sickdsm]

On another note, if this situation stays quiet for two years, the president has a potentially game changing weapon in his re election campaign. Achieving 'peace and democracy' without war and death. Republicans were literally praying this situation became a disaster. Military takeover is not an unfavorable outcome for us given the options.

One of the more west-friendly countries overthrows the govt. and that's a good thing for the prez?

When the rogue nations have a peaceful revolution and settle down, then i'll be excited.

I'm (currently) republican and i was literally praying that it doesn't get crazy over there. What's wrong with me?

[boutons_deux]

Repugs, and Fox Repug Propaganda network, will claim a good outcome in Egypt as vindicating the dubya/neo-cons' invasion and occupation of Iraq to cause M/E peace, love, and democracy to breakout as the reason the Egyptians kicked Mubarak out.

Probably commodity traders, oilcos, coalcos could legitimately claim responsibility since crazy weather killed a lot crops and commodity traders have been playing games with food commodities. Egyptian poor (like the lower 98%) are getting badly squeezed trying to pay for higher priced food.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I would say I believe the majority of the people wanted it as evidenced by the chants from the protesters of "Army please save us", etc. Seems pretty obvious to me.The people are with the military because their military is primarily a mandated military. The people serving in it are not any different than the others on the street. Its not a volunteer military with a culture apart from the general populace.



Were the Tunisian Military officers there too? Remember, this started in Tunisia, not Egypt.



I believe that if the military try to hang on for any significant length of time, then this will happen again.

Totally agree with your last point, it will take clever political moves to keep the people off the streets while nothing actually changes.
The only point i was trying to make about the military is that while it may be considered an outcome determined by the will of the people, it was most likely going to be the outcome before we heard them screaming for it in the streets. US Intel is not as dumb as some would think and yes they were meeting with egyptian military brass and yes i believe much more than tunisia was discussed.

[boutons_deux]

The problem with trying to build democracy inf ANY of these backward countries is that

1. Elections are easily rigged (like in America)

2. There is no experienced, independent judiciary.

3. ... because there is no history of democratic rights defining/enforcing framework of laws.

4. contract law is worthless, if it exists at all

5. there is little or no civic spirit and shared responsibility for the state of the country (same problem as in America).

6. Affiliations and loyalties to religious sect, tribe, etc, are much stronger than to the country.

7. Corruption is deeply, eternally ingrained at all levels of society.

etc, etc, etc.

I wish all these backward countries luck, but their chances of a truly democratic society are extremely slim.

The USA will be there with its $Bs to assure and protect its imperial, commercial interests.

[MannyIsGod]

God damn some of you are cynical as fuck. When I need a reminder I'm not that bad I can just come to ST.

[boutons_deux]

MIG, face the facts. Hope counts for shit.

Look at how wonderful democracy is in Iraq, a great judiciary, no paralysis in parliament, free of corruption, a solid body of well-written, tested law, with all the same anti-democratic history as Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Alegeria, Aghanistan, etc, etc.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/egypts_long_road_ahead_20110210/

If the US doesn't like how Egypt is turning out, you can be sure that US will dick around in the Egypt to get the results that US wants. US doesn't give a shit about democracy, that's why Marcos, Mubarak, Shah Of Iran, the Gulf States, etc, etc, can last for decades with US support.

[boutons_deux]

Life in another strategic US ally, protected and occupied by the US.

Sexual Prey in the Saudi Jungle

The working conditions of many domestics, which include 18-22 hour days and violent beatings, cannot but be described except as virtual slavery. Saudi Arabia abolished slavery by royal decree in 1962, but customs are hard to overcome. Royal and aristocratic households continue to treat domestic workers as slaves, and this behavior is reproduced by those lower in the social hierarchy. Apparently among the items of the “job description” of a domestic slave in Saudi is being forced to minister to the sexual needs of the master of the household. This is the relationship that so many young women from the Philippines, Indonesia, India, and other labor-sending Asian countries unwittingly step into when recruitment agencies place them in Saudi homes.

http://www.alternet.org/world/149835/sexual_prey_in_the_saudi_jungle_

[boutons_deux]

US will keep their dick in deep, fuck democracy.


"U.S. officials see the head of Egypt's military council as an ally committed to avoiding another war with Israel but have in the past criticized him privately as being resistant to political and economic reform.

Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, the head of the Higher Military Council that took control of Egypt on Friday after President Hosni Mubarak was swept from power, has spoken with U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates by phone five times since the crisis began, including as late as on Thursday evening."

diplomats warned ahead of a 2008 visit by Tantawi to Washington that U.S. officials should be prepared to meet a "an aged and change-resistant Tantawi."

"Charming and courtly, he is nonetheless mired in a post-Camp David military paradigm that has served his cohort's narrow interests for the last three decades,"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/mohamed-hussein-tantawi_n_822022.html

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Decent Al Jazeera article on drudge comparing the egypt situation to palestine. I'm on the phone can't link but it is worth checking out.

[boutons_deux]

Egypt Post-Mubarak: Key Facts on the Military’s Long-Standing Role

http://www.propublica.org/blog/item/egypt-post-mubarak-a-backgrounder-to-understand-militarys-long-standing-rol

=======

The Egyptian military, like any deeply vested power structure (just like the VRWC in USA), will not allow much change, if any.

[RandomGuy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt

Military coup. Thats the best possible result. Their Military staff is pretty much westernized and has lots of cross-pollination relationships with our military from annual exercises...they even worked together in Iraq...

Thats our best chance of avoiding a fundamental/radical Islamic regime change..

I think you may be right about this for those reasons.

A secular, liberal democracy in a muslim country. Go Egypt!!

[lefty]

So what, Mubarak will be replaced by another dictator who's on the CIA's payroll

Big fucking deal

[RandomGuy]

The big question is always what will the military do.

Once these things get rolling police tend to be simply outnumbered. The retreat of the police from the main Cairo square is an example of that.

Time to stay glued to the news, heh.

That seemed to be the key.

Successfully getting rid of Mubarak was what I considered the most likely of outcomes, followed very closely by a severely weakened Mubarak simply outlasting the protestors who got tired of doing what they were doing.

[RandomGuy]

I agree, but in my uneducated non-Egyptian opinion, a peaceful and ceaseless demonstration of devotion to change, 24/7 in the epicenter of the conflict will sway the military to the anti-government side.

What that means to the US and its interests, I dont know and dont care.

Also winning "I toldja so" points. :tu

[jack sommerset]

God bless Mark Zuckerberg

[RandomGuy]

Decent Al Jazeera article on drudge comparing the egypt situation to palestine. I'm on the phone can't link but it is worth checking out.


Israel would probably win again, if it had to, on the battlefields of Sinai. But could it win against masses of peaceful protesters in town squares across the West Bank, Gaza and Israel too, demanding political rights for Palestinians? It is a question that makes many Israelis queasy.

http://www.economist.com/node/18065691

This whole thing has got to have the conservative fucks running Israel worried, even beyond the "what happens to our southern flank" concerns.

Non-violent protests are the one thing they can't fight with fletchette tank/artillery rounds. (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-used-flechettes-against-gaza-civilians-20090127) As I have said for years, if the Palestinians were smart they would simply lay down their weapons and go Ghandi on the Israelis.

[RandomGuy]

God bless Mark Zuckerberg

This whole thing has the Chinese government looking over their shoulders. :wow

[jack sommerset]

This whole thing has the Chinese government looking over their shoulders. :wow

A few others too

[CosmicCowboy]

This whole thing has the Chinese government looking over their shoulders. :wow

meh...they don't have anything to worry about...

Now Saudi Arabia and UAR? They should worry.

[Yonivore]

We have the most feckless and absurd foreign policy administration -- ever. Your president and his staff have spent the past 3 weeks vacillating over their position on Egypt and whether or not Mubarek was a friend or foe, we have a national security chief that thinks the Muslim Brotherhood is a secular (the same guy who was oblivious to the major terror arrests in London a few weeks ago), homogeneous organization; and, when the end comes, Obama hears about it on the news.

God, what have you people elected?

Highest unemployment in decades.

Highest deficit, ever.

Highest national debt, ever.

The most disjointed, disorganized administration, ever.

The most corrupt administration, ever.

The least transparent administration, ever.

And, on and on and on...

2012 can't get here fast enough.

[ChumpDumper]

[impotent bitching]What was Obama supposed to do here, yoni?

Quit biting ankles and be specific for once.

[RandomGuy]

‘Mubarak’s poodle’ most powerful man in Egypt for now (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclusive/mubaraks-poodle-most-powerful-main-in-egypt-for-now)

Interesting bit on the guy probably running the show now.

[RandomGuy]

We have the most feckless and absurd foreign policy administration -- ever. Your president and his staff have spent the past 3 weeks vacillating over their position on Egypt and whether or not Mubarek was a friend or foe, we have a national security chief that thinks the Muslim Brotherhood is a secular (the same guy who was oblivious to the major terror arrests in London a few weeks ago), homogeneous organization; and, when the end comes, Obama hears about it on the news.

God, what have you people elected?

Highest unemployment in decades.

Highest deficit, ever.

Highest national debt, ever.

The most disjointed, disorganized administration, ever.

The most corrupt administration, ever.

The least transparent administration, ever.

And, on and on and on...

2012 can't get here fast enough.

:spin :spin


and almost all of the problems can still be traced to the giant shit-hole left by the Republican leadership from 2000-2008.

Sorry bizarro boutons, you still fail.

As for the foreign policy, it wouldn't have mattered jack-shit which party was in the white-house, we would still have had to walk an impossible tight-rope.

[ChumpDumper]

It could be that not sticking his dick into every single international event could be the best play for the future in the ME.

lol that Bush had some feck.

[Yonivore]

:spin :spin


and almost all of the problems can still be traced to the giant shit-hole left by the Republican leadership from 2000-2008.
Really? Start tracing.

The Republicans didn't select Biden as Vice President, Clinton as Secretary of State, or that idiot over at the NSA.

The Republicans didn't run up the deficit or the debt.

Unemployment is a direct result of Democrats and Obama's regulatory excesses and power grabs in the private markets.

As for corruption; you could start a thread, Obama's corruption of the day, and have a different fucking story every fucking day. What is it today? Oh yeah, the DOJ is playing favorites with how they respond to FOIA requests. A violation of federal law. How do you blame that on Republicans or the previous administration?

The administration that promised to be the most transparent is anything but. How do you blame that on Republicans or the previous administration?

Nothing I listed can be traced back to Republicans or the previous administration.

[RandomGuy]

It could be that not sticking his dick into every single international event could be the best play for the future in the ME.

lol that Bush had some feck.

The good thing now that Mubarak is gone is that we can now really get behind the protestors, and don't have to be seen as throwing our "friend" under the bus.

That will now happen, and we can start the process of supporting a truly popular democracy in the middle east.

I think we can also start distancing ourselves from some of our other "friends" now. Hopefully we will start seeing less realpolitik, and more living up to our own ideals.

[ChumpDumper]

The Republicans didn't run up the deficit or the debt.

Unemployment is a direct result of Democrats and Obama's regulatory excesses and power grabs in the private markets...

....Nothing I listed can be traced back to Republicans or the previous administration.:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

It's just so easy when people like yoni outright lie.

lol didn't run up the deficit.

Fucking idiot.

[RandomGuy]

Really? Start tracing.

The Republicans didn't select Biden as Vice President, Clinton as Secretary of State, or that idiot over at the NSA.

The Republicans didn't run up the deficit or the debt.

Unemployment is a direct result of Democrats and Obama's regulatory excesses and power grabs in the private markets.

As for corruption; you could start a thread, Obama's corruption of the day, and have a different fucking story every fucking day. What is it today? Oh yeah, the DOJ is playing favorites with how they respond to FOIA requests. A violation of federal law. How do you blame that on Republicans or the previous administration?

The administration that promised to be the most transparent is anything but. How do you blame that on Republicans or the previous administration?

Nothing I listed can be traced back to Republicans or the previous administration.

:spin

Sorry, not going to take the bait, bias-boy. I see little value in feeding your ego by treating your posts as if they were worth responding to with anything other than polite amusement. (edit) or outright mockery. (/edit)

I honestly can't remember the last intellectually honest thing you have posted here.

[ChumpDumper]

Not fair, RG -- he extended an olive branch to you.

If only you had feck.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao Didn't run up the deficit.

Holy shit.

Anyway, I for one am happy for the people of Egypt and I am hopeful they will establish a government that does them well. Very awesome to see them succeed and I can only hope it spreads to the rest of the middle east.

Unlike Iraq, a revolution that starts from within and moves itself will succeed. It builds a sense of unity and pride and not the feeling of being conquered. Amazing history we just witnessed.