Oh, To Be a Teacher in Wisconsin

[Marcus Bryant]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.html

[ChumpDumper]

Do they have the numbers for firefighters and police as well?

[boutons_deux]

WSJ, just another VRWC (Murdoch branch) propaganda mouthpiece, starts with a lie:

"That's how many cents the public pays Milwaukee public-school teachers and other employees for retirement and health benefits for every dollar they receive in salary. "

really?

"There has been a lot of media coverage about the funding of pension systems across the nation. Is the WRS [Wisconsin Retirement System] fully funded and able to pay benefits? Yes, the WRS is fully funded and able to pay benefits to current and future WRS members."

In fact, Wisconsin is a national model for its fully funded pension system, which segregates the funds so they can't be raided as has happened in private sector firms and other states.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/150068

===========

The real crisis for all retirees is not their pension, but getting raped by sick-care costs. That's a crisis for all Americans. Of course, WSJ would never touch the greedy, corrupt, fraudulent docs, hospitals, for-profit insurance companies.

[Nbadan]

In fact, Wisconsin is a national model for its fully funded pension system, which segregates the funds so they can't be raided as has happened in private sector firms and other states.

I wonder who Mr. Contrell is working for. Either he is working for an agenda or he really didn't do his research...

[DarrinS]

It's no surprise that public employees with guaranteed, publicly-funded pensions are resented by the private sector, whose "pension" is only funded by mostly at-risk 401k plans, many of which have zero employeer contribution.


Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!

[George Gervin's Afro]

The war on teachers continues!

[DarrinS]

The war on teachers continues!


The NEA adopted union activities in the 1960's. Hmmm.

http://www.preservenet.com/simpleliving/04USEducation.gif

http://www.calvertinstitute.org/charts_graphs/figure1.jpg

[George Gervin's Afro]

The NEA adopted union activities in the 1960's. Hmmm.

http://www.preservenet.com/simpleliving/04USEducation.gif

http://www.calvertinstitute.org/charts_graphs/figure1.jpg

So it's the unions fault.. ok.. I guess you forgot to provide the graph that shows SOCIETY has changed since the 1960's..

hmmmm

[TeyshaBlue]

The war on teachers continues!

:lol

[Spurminator]

If it's that out of control, it shouldn't be a difficult case to make. Especially to the public. Why take away their CB rights?

[Spurminator]

The NEA adopted union activities in the 1960's. Hmmm.

http://www.preservenet.com/simpleliving/04USEducation.gif

http://www.calvertinstitute.org/charts_graphs/figure1.jpg

Why is it that charts like this always get you so worked up, but a chart showing the widening gap between the very rich and the rest of the country is always class warfare?

[fraga]

Damn those teachers living their lavish lifestyles in the lap of luxury...damn them all...

[ElNono]

What these numbers ultimately prove is the excessive power of collective bargaining.

This is what I disagree with. What those numbers show is that one side of the table wasn't bargaining at all. When you concede to pretty much all demands, where's the bargaining?

Collective bargaining exists on the private sector too, and you don't see those numbers there.

[coyotes_geek]

This is what I disagree with. What those numbers show is that one side of the table wasn't bargaining at all. When you concede to pretty much all demands, where's the bargaining?

Collective bargaining exists on the private sector too, and you don't see those numbers there.

That's because in the private sector both sides have to deal with economic realities such as the possibility of bankruptcy. Not so in the public services arena. There's nothing wrong with the concept of collective bargaining, but I think it's use should be restricted in the public arena. Especially when dealing with future retirement obligations such as pensions and long term healthcare. Defined benefit retirement obligations for public services have pretty much failed unilaterally across the nation.

[ElNono]

That's because in the private sector both sides have to deal with economic realities such as the possibility of bankruptcy. Not so in the public services arena. There's nothing wrong with the concept of collective bargaining, but I think it's use should be restricted in the public arena. Especially when dealing with future retirement obligations such as pensions and long term healthcare. Defined benefit retirement obligations for public services have pretty much failed unilaterally across the nation.

I don't disagree with that at all. I just think it's a complete fallacy to conclude that what's wrong is CBA, especially after comparing against much lower numbers in the private sector which most likely have also been obtained trough the CBA process.

[Blake]

I wonder who Mr. Contrell is working for. Either he is working for an agenda or he really didn't do his research...


Mr. Costrell is professor of education reform and economics at the University of Arkansas

[Blake]

That's because in the private sector both sides have to deal with economic realities such as the possibility of bankruptcy.

I always find it interesting when public school teachers get compared to private sector workers.

[coyotes_geek]

I don't disagree with that at all. I just think it's a complete fallacy to conclude that what's wrong is CBA, especially after comparing against much lower numbers in the private sector which most likely have also been obtained trough the CBA process.

Agreed. In Wisconsin I think what we're seeing is a problem with the application of CBA, not with the method of CBA itself.

[TeyshaBlue]

Mr. Costrell is professor of education reform and economics at the University of Arkansas

I doubt that compares to any of dan's internet degrees. Plus, he's clearly not as well versed as dan.:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

I always find it interesting when public school teachers get compared to private sector workers.

Human Capital as has to be employed as an analysis tool is because the populations are so fundamentally disparate, an alternate population set has to be created to even attempt a comparison between public and private sectors. That being said, it's a construct....and a bit of a squirmy one at that, IMO.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary

Those are union-driven exorbitant salaries?

The VRWC attack on unions isn't about salaries.

It's about eliminating all potential centers of political opposition to the VRWC, eg, union contributions to Dems.

[DarrinS]

Why is it that charts like this always get you so worked up, but a chart showing the widening gap between the very rich and the rest of the country is always class warfare?



Maybe the two charts are related?

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary

Those are union-driven exorbitant salaries?

The VRWC attack on unions isn't about salaries.

It's about eliminating all potential centers of political opposition to the VRWC, eg, union contributions to Dems.
Not bad for working 9 months out of 12.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Not bad for working 9 months out of 12.

if you have a problem with it then change the school year..

[boutons_deux]

Many teachers have to prepare and grade tests and papers outside of school hours, as well as buy lots of supplies out of their own pockets.

TX schools seems to be out of session only 2 months, not 3 months.

Teaching is for most cases a shitty job, with, eg, TX teachers quitting teaching after 5 years.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Many teachers have to prepare and grade tests and papers outside of school hours, as well as buy lots of supplies out of their own pockets.

TX schools seems to be out of session only 2 months, not 3 months.

Teaching is for most cases a shitty job, with, eg, TX teachers quitting teaching after 5 years.

The nut jobs don't want to hear that. My spouse regularly buys extra supplies and loads up on things that she knows that some kids will not be bale to bring from home. She often tells me of kids who wear the same clothes everyday and that they smell terrible. The same kids qualify for free breakfast and lunch so they at least get to eat. She buys snacks and other things for her kids..

don't tell wc or darrin that teachers do work during the summer and they go back to school up to 10 days prior to the students.. it wouldn't fit their narrative..

[Blake]

Not bad for working 9 months out of 12.

how many hours a year do you think the average school teacher works?

[TeyshaBlue]

lol...I never got 3 months off. If I was lucky, I might have been away from campus for 3 weeks...maybe.

[George Gervin's Afro]

how many hours a year do you think the average school teacher works?

he'll have to go to a right wing blog to find the answer..

[Wild Cobra]

if you have a problem with it then change the school year..
Then they would demand even more.

Realistically, they probably work 10/12 months. That average I think is low, probably includes part time positions. When I look at the Centennial district for Oregon, the 10th percentile for preschool teachers is at $25,510, probably part-time. The 90 percentile for High school teachers is $72,620. These are 2009 numbers. Now unlike most working Americans, they get a platinum edition health plan at zero deduction from their check. They also have an equivalent 6%(I think 6%) of their income into PERS (public employee retirement system.) This is enough to guarantee them a very nice retirement income, sometimes more than they earned working, subsidized of course by tax payer dollars because the agreed 6% would never grow that well, but is given an 8% minimum guaranteed rate of growth. Yes, PERS does work that way.

Lets assume a career teacher is at a nominal $60k rate, working 10 months for it. For any of us to retire as well as they do, we would have to contribute a max 15% to a 40kk system or better. To get as nice a health insurance package as they get, we would have to shell out maybe $4,000 a year or more. I shell out just under $2,000 annually, for a basic quality health plan.

What do we have...

$60,000 income
$4,000 insurance
$11,300 equivalent employer retirement paid (sold to the tax payer as $3,600)

Total...

$75,300, for 10 months work.

Now...

divided by 10 and multiplied by 12 is an annual equivalent of $90,360, or $43.44 per hour.

[Wild Cobra]

how many hours a year do you think the average school teacher works?
1680 hrs plus/minus a few hrs a year without getting overtime. Of course, I already removed the paid holidays. the full time, 40hr a week job is 2080 hrs minus holidays, or about 2016 hours.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Then they would demand even more.

Realistically, they probably work 10/12 months. That average I think is low, probably includes part time positions. When I look at the Centennial district for Oregon, the 10th percentile for preschool teachers is at $25,510, probably part-time. The 90 percentile for High school teachers is $72,620. These are 2009 numbers. Now unlike most working Americans, they get a platinum edition health plan at zero deduction from their check. They also have an equivalent 6%(I think 6%) of their income into PERS (public employee retirement system.) This is enough to guarantee them a very nice retirement income, sometimes more than they earned working, subsidized of course by tax payer dollars because the agreed 6% would never grow that well, but is given an 8% minimum guaranteed rate of growth. Yes, PERS does work that way.

Lets assume a career teacher is at a nominal $60k rate, working 10 months for it. For any of us to retire as well as they do, we would have to contribute a max 15% to a 40kk system or better. To get as nice a health insurance package as they get, we would have to shell out maybe $4,000 a year or more. I shell out just under $2,000 annually, for a basic quality health plan.

What do we have...

$60,000 income
$4,000 insurance
$11,300 equivalent employer retirement paid (sold to the tax payer as $3,600)

Total...

$75,300, for 10 months work.

Now...

divided by 10 and multiplied by 12 is an annual equivalent of $90,360, or $43.44 per hour.

The health benefits my wife gets suck... platinum?:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

lol...I never got 3 months off. If I was lucky, I might have been away from campus for 3 weeks...maybe.

Different states are different.

Did you get paid more for time spent outside the school cycle?

[Wild Cobra]

The health benefits my wife gets suck... platinum?:lmao
Then maybe you should consider moving to Oregon.

[Spurminator]

So now salary is supposed to be congruent to actual labor hours.

What is fair pay for a corporate executive playing golf once a week during work hours?

[TeyshaBlue]

Different states are different.

Did you get paid more for time spent outside the school cycle?

Wow...water is water.

No. I was on a 12 month contract.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Then maybe you should consider moving to Oregon.

so why do you post with such certainty ,when in actuality, when you have no idea how it is anywhere else?

[MannyIsGod]

That's because in the private sector both sides have to deal with economic realities such as the possibility of bankruptcy. Not so in the public services arena. There's nothing wrong with the concept of collective bargaining, but I think it's use should be restricted in the public arena. Especially when dealing with future retirement obligations such as pensions and long term healthcare. Defined benefit retirement obligations for public services have pretty much failed unilaterally across the nation.

I could not disagree more with your first statement. There is accountability in both sectors and they need not be the same devices to have the same effect.

The fact remains that public sector employees total compensation is perfectly in line with private sector employees. There have been studies that testify to this.

The idea that the public sector unions are fleecing us all is just a flat out lie.

[TeyshaBlue]

1680 hrs plus/minus a few hrs a year without getting overtime. Of course, I already removed the paid holidays. the full time, 40hr a week job is 2080 hrs minus holidays, or about 2016 hours.

Your assumptions suck, btw. What about Teachers who work at night grading papers? What about Teachers who work in their classrooms during holidays?

No, not all do/not do this. But it makes mincemeat of your assumptions.

[TeyshaBlue]

I could not disagree more with your first statement. There is accountability in both sectors and they need not be the same devices to have the same effect.

The fact remains that public sector employees total compensation is perfectly in line with private sector employees. There have been studies that testify to this.

The idea that the public sector unions are fleecing us all is just a flat out lie.

What analysis I've seen comparing the two sectors has been far from compelling IMO. I'm not sure CG is making a point concerning fleecing....it's more along the lines of the relationship of the parties to the taxpayer in both populations.

[MannyIsGod]

Our society loves to give lip service to how great teachers are but hates to pay them.

[TeyshaBlue]

And of course you could disagee more, MIG. I've seen you do it.:lol

[Blake]

So now salary is supposed to be congruent to actual labor hours.

What is fair pay for a corporate executive playing golf once a week during work hours?

huh?

when has salary not been congruent to actual labor hours?

[Vici]

The nut jobs don't want to hear that. My spouse regularly buys extra supplies and loads up on things that she knows that some kids will not be bale to bring from home. She often tells me of kids who wear the same clothes everyday and that they smell terrible. The same kids qualify for free breakfast and lunch so they at least get to eat. She buys snacks and other things for her kids..

don't tell wc or darrin that teachers do work during the summer and they go back to school up to 10 days prior to the students.. it wouldn't fit their narrative..


I don't get this at all either. My girlfriend regularly works 70 hour weeks easily, not including weekends. She spends her summers upgrading her lesson plan so that next year will be a better year for her students. If she had "3 months off" I'd bust her ass to get a second job because she doesn't make shit. Between student loans, gas, food, rent, health insurance she can't put anything away which puts a ton of pressure on me. I can't fathom where this hatred of teachers is coming from. Next thing you know they are going to attack crippled veterans for being a weight on the system.

[MannyIsGod]

What analysis I've seen comparing the two sectors has been far from compelling IMO. I'm not sure CG is making a point concerning fleecing....it's more along the lines of the relationship of the parties to the taxpayer in both populations.

The analysis I've seen shows more compensation through deffered methods such as pension in exchange to lower up front costs. I think CG is making a point about fleecing, however. If there is no fleecing going on then I fail to see how there are flaws in the relationship that are being exploited.

[Winehole23]

What is fair pay for a corporate executive playing golf once a week during work hours?The going rate. Playing golf is serious effing business.

[MannyIsGod]

And of course you could disagee more, MIG. I've seen you do it.:lol

:lol

[Spurminator]

huh?

when has salary not been congruent to actual labor hours?


Salaried employees are paid based on a number of factors... experience, education, skill, revenue generated, level within the company, etc.

Number of hours worked during the week/year is typically not very high on the list.

[TeyshaBlue]

The analysis I've seen shows more compensation through deffered methods such as pension in exchange to lower up front costs. I think CG is making a point about fleecing, however. If there is no fleecing going on then I fail to see how there are flaws in the relationship that are being exploited.
A flaw is not predicated on an exploit. And there are more than zero that hold a reasoned viewpoint in opposition.

Me, I've got a foot in both camps with this issue. Sucks, really. Like cg, I think there is a fundamental flaw in using a negotiating model designed on private ownership of company vs. public/taxpayer (Yeah I know...kinda Pollyannaish of me), ownership.

[MannyIsGod]

You can certainly have a flaw without it being exploited but I have a hard time seeing the relevance of such a flaw.

[Blake]

Salaried employees are paid based on a number of factors... experience, education, skill, revenue generated, level within the company, etc.

Number of hours worked during the week/year is typically not very high on the list.

name an occupation you are referring to as a well as a position that is not CEO or something similar.

[RandomGuy]

WSJ, just another VRWC (Murdoch branch) propaganda mouthpiece, starts with a lie:

"That's how many cents the public pays Milwaukee public-school teachers and other employees for retirement and health benefits for every dollar they receive in salary. "

really?

"There has been a lot of media coverage about the funding of pension systems across the nation. Is the WRS [Wisconsin Retirement System] fully funded and able to pay benefits? Yes, the WRS is fully funded and able to pay benefits to current and future WRS members."

In fact, Wisconsin is a national model for its fully funded pension system, which segregates the funds so they can't be raided as has happened in private sector firms and other states.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/150068

===========

The real crisis for all retirees is not their pension, but getting raped by sick-care costs. That's a crisis for all Americans. Of course, WSJ would never touch the greedy, corrupt, fraudulent docs, hospitals, for-profit insurance companies.

Interesting. So basically the figure is so much higher than the average, because they are actually setting aside as much money as they are supposed to be.

As I have noted from what I have read about pension funds nationally, both private and government, are under-reserved.

So essentially, the reason that Wisconsin actually pays so much more into the fund is that they are being fiscally prudent, and not shoving the payments off until later, when they will need to be much bigger.

Even more telling:


Blogger Kristen Emery points to what she calls a "pension theft provision" in Walker's bill:

On page three of the bill, "third paragraph from the top, there is very interesting language that leads to the very important question for Governor Walker. The paragraph mandates that a study of the existing Wisconsin Retirement System be performed and it must “specifically address establishing a defined contribution plan as an option for WRS participating employees” and the deadline for completing this study is June 30, 2012. I don’t think that Walker would be adding retirement benefits for workers - so I am wondering if the Republican Governors that are trying to get rid of collective bargaining of retirement benefits, so that they can terminate the existing plans and recover excess assets for their state balance sheets.

"If Governor Walker’s bill passes, and collective bargaining of retirement benefits is eliminated, then next year when Governor Walker decides it is in Wisconsin’s best interests to get rid of the existing plan and replace it with something less valuable for the employees. And the employees would have no say and no one can keep Walker from raiding your retirement savings."

Over beers at Donnelly's retirement party, Phillips agrees: "ETF has $78 billion in retirement funds--it has got to have occurred to someone in the Governor's office to use those funds," says.

It is a well-worn budget gimmick for governors to monkey with pension funds to balance budgets and create gimmies. Either taking money directly, as appears to be the case here, or changing some of the assumptions to make it appear as if the liability is smaller (reducing funding requirements, and freeing up cash for other pet projects)

[Spurminator]

name an occupation you are referring to as a well as a position that is not CEO or something similar.

:wtf Have you really never worked in a place, or known anyone who has worked in a place, where lower level (thus lower paid) employees typically stay in the office for much longer hours than their bosses and company executives?

If you really need an example of a workplace like this, how about an ad agency?

I don't want to derail the thread. All I was saying is that it's a curious standard to suggest that teachers are overpaid because of the number of hours they work.

[RandomGuy]

Our society loves to give lip service to how great teachers are but hates to pay them.

If there is one segment of government that should pay better than average, it is teaching.

[DarrinS]

Our society loves to give lip service to how great teachers are but hates to pay them.


I'm all for paying the really good teachers even more. Problem is, the union hates merit-based pay.

[DarrinS]

Come to think of it, unions don't really foster individual excellence.

[DarrinS]

A shitty teacher with "tenure" will make more than a great teacher with only a few years of experience. Sad.

[Blake]

:wtf Have you really never worked in a place, or known anyone who has worked in a place, where lower level (thus lower paid) employees typically stay in the office for much longer hours than their bosses and company executives?

If you really need an example of a workplace like this, how about an ad agency?

I don't want to derail the thread. All I was saying is that it's a curious standard to suggest that teachers are overpaid because of the number of hours they work.

sorry, I must have missed somewhere and apparently I don't know who you original post was directed at......

who suggested that teachers are overpaid because of the number of hours they work?

[Blake]

A shitty teacher with "tenure" will make more than a great teacher with only a few years of experience. Sad.

not much more.

it's the starting salary that's pretty good.

[Spurminator]

sorry, I must have missed somewhere and apparently I don't know who you original post was directed at......

who suggested that teachers are overpaid because of the number of hours they work?

Post 30.

[DarrinS]

not much more.

the biggest lure in teaching would be the starting salary.


And pension + benefits.

[Blake]

Then they would demand even more.

Realistically, they probably work 10/12 months. That average I think is low, probably includes part time positions. When I look at the Centennial district for Oregon, the 10th percentile for preschool teachers is at $25,510, probably part-time. The 90 percentile for High school teachers is $72,620. These are 2009 numbers.

what do you mean by "90 percentile"?

[Blake]

And pension + benefits.

and the love of educating kids and on and on.

I changed my post.

Point being 0 years is not much different than 10 years.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm all for paying the really good teachers even more. Problem is, the union hates merit-based pay.

So the union gets everything it wants? I'm all for something like merit pay and I'm in no way a fan of the teachers unions but there's 2 bodies at the negotiating table.

[coyotes_geek]

I could not disagree more with your first statement. There is accountability in both sectors and they need not be the same devices to have the same effect.

That is simply not true. There's very, very little risk in public sector negotiations. Both sides are negotiating using a 3rd party's money, there's no pressure to be profitable or efficient, there's little to no consequences for either party when a bad deal gets made. Neither side is faced with the possibility of losing everything. Accountability is a function of risk and public sector risk doesn't come anywhere close to private sector risk.


The fact remains that public sector employees total compensation is perfectly in line with private sector employees. There have been studies that testify to this.

The taxpayers don't really give a shit. All they see are prospects of paying higher taxes for lesser services and a bunch of money being spent on benefits for public sector retirees who don't work for them anymore.


The idea that the public sector unions are fleecing us all is just a flat out lie.

You're using the fleecing word, not me. I'm not saying anyone is fleecing anyone. I'm just saying how collective bargaining in a public sector setting is a fundamentally flawed application of the CBA concept. The unbalanced budgets, unfunded obligations and declining levels of service we're seeing nationwide provide ample evidence of this.


What analysis I've seen comparing the two sectors has been far from compelling IMO. I'm not sure CG is making a point concerning fleecing....it's more along the lines of the relationship of the parties to the taxpayer in both populations.

Exactly.


The analysis I've seen shows more compensation through deffered methods such as pension in exchange to lower up front costs.

It's the credit card approach. Eventually it catches up to you, and we're there.


I think CG is making a point about fleecing, however. If there is no fleecing going on then I fail to see how there are flaws in the relationship that are being exploited.

See above, not talking about fleecing. It's simply a flawed system.


The going rate. Playing golf is serious effing business.

Damn skippy!

[Stringer_Bell]

Perhaps a stupid question, and maybe its been covered but I can't seem to find it...Are teachers better taken care of the our military? I wonder since they're both integral to the security of our country, albiet in different ways.

[coyotes_geek]

If there is one segment of government that should pay better than average, it is teaching.

I don't have a problem paying teachers better than average. Just do it by paying them a better than average salary TODAY. Don't tie up damn near half of their compensation in pension and long term health benefits that don't get paid out until decades later.

[Drachen]

I have a question, I have heard or read about a week or week and a half ago (but maybe have misunderstood or something) that the unions have agreed to all of the cuts proposed by the Gov. Is this true? If so, doesn't it kinda prove that the CBA works?

P.S. I know, if I provide no link it didn't happen, I am searching. In the meantime, I wanted to know if someone else heard this.

[Vici]

Perhaps a stupid question, and maybe its been covered but I can't seem to find it...Are teachers better taken care of the our military? I wonder since they're both integral to the security of our country, albiet in different ways.

http://www.todaysmilitary.com/benefits/compensation/results?college_degree=yes&spouse=no&medical_degree=no&x=41&y=11

New officer's make out like bandits compared to teachers (who have equal degrees). A better comparison would be with enlisted. 21.5 k is starting salary on the lower end so take that with full medical and dental the teacher still squeeks out ahead. This is assuming that the teacher has medical insurance and is paying off student loans.

[Vici]

Just redid the options and if you're married and enlisted, you do much better starting than a teacher does. It's not even close.

[Stringer_Bell]

http://www.todaysmilitary.com/benefits/compensation/results?college_degree=yes&spouse=no&medical_degree=no&x=41&y=11

New officer's make out like bandits compared to teachers (who have equal degrees). A better comparison would be with enlisted. 21.5 k is starting salary on the lower end so take that with full medical and dental the teacher still squeeks out ahead. This is assuming that the teacher has medical insurance and is paying off student loans.

Thanks for the info! :toast

[DarrinS]

I would assume teaching is a tad bit less risky than, say, being deployed to Afghanistan. Well, unless you're a teacher in Detroit.

[ChumpDumper]

So Darrin is also against such bargaining rights and benefits for police and firefighters as well.

[Nbadan]

I would assume teaching is a tad bit less risky than, say, being deployed to Afghanistan. Well, unless you're a teacher in Detroit.

:lol

Talk to a teacher.....most would rather be in Afghanistan....

[TeyshaBlue]

:lol

Talk to a teacher.....most would rather be in Afghanistan....

:lol:lol You can reason with some Afghanis.

[Winehole23]

I have a question, I have heard or read about a week or week and a half ago (but maybe have misunderstood or something) that the unions have agreed to all of the cuts proposed by the Gov. Is this true? If so, doesn't it kinda prove that the CBA works?

P.S. I know, if I provide no link it didn't happen, I am searching. In the meantime, I wanted to know if someone else heard this.I heard that too, though I don't recall where. (Robert Reich, maybe?)

If true, Gov. Walker is being an an outlandish dick, but I have no idea whether it is true.

Have you you checked?

[Winehole23]

A shitty teacher with "tenure" will make more than a great teacher with only a few years of experience. Sad.A great teacher might not get tenure if he teaches too much and publishes too little. Very sad.

[boutons_deux]

"the unions have agreed to all of the cuts proposed by the Gov."

Try to keep up. I've read that several places. Assuming, safely, that it's true, that proves the WI deficit is not the reason for union busting. The objective is to destroy unions as a source of Dem contribution. The Repugs want to ELIMINATE, mop up every last source of opposition.

[Wild Cobra]

I heard that too, though I don't recall where. (Robert Reich, maybe?)

If true, Gov. Walker is being an an outlandish dick, but I have no idea whether it is true.

Have you you checked?
I heard the same thing. I would say he knows how to bargain.

[Spurminator]

I heard the same thing. I would say he knows how to bargain.

I would say removing bargaining would indicate he DOESN'T know how to bargain.

[Spurminator]

The fact that WI unions agreed to pay cuts is a grossly underreported aspect of this story, but here is a link from 2/22.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/22/neither-side-budging-in-wisconsin-union-battle/


Public employees have said they would agree to concessions Walker wants that would amount to an 8 percent pay cut on average, but they want to retain their collective bargaining rights. One Republican senator also has floated an alternative that would make the elimination of those rights temporary.

Walker has repeatedly rejected both offers, saying local governments and school districts can't be hamstrung by the often lengthy collective bargaining process.

[ChumpDumper]

....but they can be hamstrung by the often lengthy collective bargaining process with police and fire unions.