112 Cruise missiles - What a mistake

[ChumpDumper]

The rebels are worse than Gaddafi. Mark my words for future reference.what is your evidence of this?

Pravda?

Russia Today?

Glenn Beck?

[CosmicCowboy]

Where did I do that?

Show me a quote.

You pounced on me when I pointed out that the devil we knew may end up being better than the devil we don't.

I could see years of killing and score settling before the dust settles.

[ElNono]

The rebels are worse than Gaddafi. Mark my words for future reference.

The US is following a UN mandate. What the 'rebels' do with their country is their business.

[ChumpDumper]

You pounced on me when I pointed out that the devil we knew may end up being better than the devil we don't.So I didn't do what you said at all.

Thanks.


I could see years of killing and score settling before the dust settles.When did you start caring so much about the lives of Arab Muslims?

[ElNono]

+1.

At first, people were bitching about this as Iraq/Afghanistan part 2, especially when the rebels initially seemed weak/disorganized. Now, after what was essentially an air-mission/missle campaign removed a dictator of some 40+ years to give space for the Libyan people to democratically choose which form of government they want, the complaint now becomes Ghadafi wasn't such a bad guy?

1st page:


As long as we don't get involved in ground missions, I really have no problem with a no-fly zone... same as Bush Sr did in Iraq.

[vy65]

I had CC, Manny, WH, and MarcusBanks in mind, scro ...

[CosmicCowboy]

So I didn't do what you said at all.

Thanks.

And I didn't do what you said at all.

Thanks




When did you start caring so much about the lives of Arab Muslims?

I will care a hell of a lot if Ghadafi gets replaced by a Muslim theocracy and we get sucked even deeper into that black hole militarily.

[ElNono]

I will care a hell of a lot if Ghadafi gets replaced by a Muslim theocracy and we get sucked even deeper into that black hole militarily.

If it's not a genocide Muslim theocracy and that's what the people want, what's the problem?

[vy65]

lol we support democracy so long as the people choose the leaders we want

[ChumpDumper]

And I didn't do what you said at all.

ThanksYou absolutely became an apologist for Ghadafi. Do you want a link and quote?


I will care a hell of a lot if Ghadafi gets replaced by a Muslim theocracy and we get sucked even deeper into that black hole militarily.What is your evidence this will happen?

[CosmicCowboy]

You absolutely became an apologist for Ghadafi. Do you want a link and quote?

What is your evidence this will happen?

You can be such a chump sometimes.

I pointed out that Ghadafi used the oil revenue to do a lot of good things for his people.

That is a FACT

Do your homework CHUMP.

In many ways Ghadafi was delivering exactly what the Democrats want to do in the US.

I can list them but maybe you should try to educate yourself instead of kneejerk attacking me.

[TDMVPDPOY]

gonna replace ghadafi with more puppets for the west to control

the puppets who end up putting their family and relatives in high positions without any credentials, oh wait this is just the same like south vietnam, east timor, afghanistan...all of which are doom to fail...then you see each mofo gettin killed one by one...same shit nothing new here..

lol arab spring putting douches as puppets for leadership just like the previous regime, nothing new here...more imcompetant fcks running the country and ruining the country....

[ChumpDumper]

You can be such a chump sometimes.

I pointed out that Ghadafi used the oil revenue to do a lot of good things for his people.

That is a FACT

Do your homework CHUMP.

In many ways Ghadafi was delivering exactly what the Democrats want to do in the US.

I can list them but maybe you should try to educate yourself instead of kneejerk attacking me.I called you an apologist for Ghadafi.

Your response?

Another apologist post.

lol attack

And you didn't provide any evidence Ghadafi gets replaced by a Muslim theocracy and we get sucked even deeper into that black hole militarily. That did not go unnoticed.

[Winehole23]

lol ground invasion
lol another iraq/afghanistanDon't count your chickens before they hatch.

[CosmicCowboy]

I called you an apologist for Ghadafi.

Your response?

Another apologist post.

lol attack

And you didn't provide any evidence Ghadafi gets replaced by a Muslim theocracy and we get sucked even deeper into that black hole militarily. That did not go unnoticed.


Fuck you. I'm not apologizing for Ghadafi. He had the same goals as Obama he just got his done. Well, for 41 years, anyway.

[vy65]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Were ground troops needed to remove Ghadafi from power? Do you believe that he (Ghadafi) still controls the country?

[ChumpDumper]

Fuck you. I'm not apologizing for Ghadafi. He had the same goals as Obama he just got his done. Well, for 41 years, anyway.Wow.

Just wow.

I'm just going to chalk this up to your being upset.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.I have to agree. It's going to be a very uncertain time if Ghadafi is overthrown. I'm not sure if Islamic fundamentalism is as big a threat to a democratic movement there as is the tribalism that gave rise to and kept Ghadafi in power in the first place.

[Winehole23]

Were ground troops needed to remove Ghadafi from power? Do you believe that he (Ghadafi) still controls the country?Is Qaddafi out of the picture or the war over?

[vy65]

Is Qaddafi out of the picture or the war over?

Given the reports of his leaving the country from earlier today, I would say that he is out of the picture.

[Wild Cobra]

what is your evidence of this?

Pravda?

Russia Today?

Glenn Beck?
Take my prediction as is. That's why I said what I did. Just remember I said this, when the future shows me correct. I have stated my reasons for this belief throughout this thread and a few others.

[CosmicCowboy]

Wow.

Just wow.

I'm just going to chalk this up to your being upset.


Upset? Gadhafi nationalized the evil oil companies and used the money to:

increase literacy from 10% to 90%

Libya has a lower hunger rate than the United States (2%)

Education from grade school through to college was free in Libya.

Healthcare is free and Libyan pharmacies and hospitals are comparable to high-quality European facilities.

Libya ranks No. 53 on the United Nations Index of Human Development.

Libya has by far the highest standard of living in Africa.

In 1969 before Qaddafi it was the lowest in the world at just $60 per year income

Libya gives free land and seeds to anyone who wants to farm that land.

There is virtually no homelessness in Libya as everyone is given a home.

Women in Libya have equal rights, not only as a philosophy, but in practice.

Under Gaddafi’s oil-revenue-sharing program, each Libyan gets $500 (Dollars) deposited into his or her bank account each month.

For any medical care, operations, or health treatments that are unavailable in Libya, the citizen is given full expenses for travel, treatment and accommodation abroad to wherever is required for the treatment to be given.

On marriage, each couple was gifted $60,000 to do with as they please; furnish their home, take a holiday, honeymoon, buy car, etc.

Now THATS "Change you can believe in!"

[ChumpDumper]

Take my prediction as is. That's why I said what I did. Just remember I said this, when the future shows me correct. I have stated my reasons for this belief throughout this thread and a few others.You say that a lot when you can't actually say anything.

[Wild Cobra]

If it's not a genocide Muslim theocracy and that's what the people want, what's the problem?
Do you really believe the population as a whole wants this?

Really...

The people who did have a "high" HDI index, had the best standard of living of all African nations, and was completely self sufficient... until this war...

Do you really believe that?

I call it propaganda.

[ChumpDumper]

Upset? Gadhafi nationalized the evil oil companies and used the money to:

increase literacy from 10% to 90%

Libya has a lower hunger rate than the United States (2%)

Education from grade school through to college was free in Libya.

Healthcare is free and Libyan pharmacies and hospitals are comparable to high-quality European facilities.

Libya ranks No. 53 on the United Nations Index of Human Development.

Libya has by far the highest standard of living in Africa.

In 1969 before Qaddafi it was the lowest in the world at just $60 per year income

Libya gives free land and seeds to anyone who wants to farm that land.

There is virtually no homelessness in Libya as everyone is given a home.

Women in Libya have equal rights, not only as a philosophy, but in practice.

Under Gaddafi’s oil-revenue-sharing program, each Libyan gets $500 (Dollars) deposited into his or her bank account each month.

For any medical care, operations, or health treatments that are unavailable in Libya, the citizen is given full expenses for travel, treatment and accommodation abroad to wherever is required for the treatment to be given.

On marriage, each couple was gifted $60,000 to do with as they please; furnish their home, take a holiday, honeymoon, buy car, etc.

Now THATS "Change you can believe in!"I never thought you would put the kneepads on for an Arab dictator, CC.

You're an apologist and somehow, you're angry about it.

How about you give a link to that list you pasted above?

[Wild Cobra]

Is Qaddafi out of the picture or the war over?
Looks like that is next, I predict within the next few days. I would say for certain before September.

[Wild Cobra]

I never thought you would put the kneepads on for an Arab dictator, CC.

You're an apologist and somehow, you're angry about it.

How about you give a link to that list you pasted above.
Since when is using facts, being apologetic?

[Wild Cobra]

You say that a lot when you can't actually say anything.
I am making a long term prediction, and I already stated my reasons.

Stop asking me to recount my already stated reasons.

I'm not going to waste my time.

[ChumpDumper]

Upset? Gadhafi nationalized the evil oil companies and used the money to:

increase literacy from 10% to 90%

Libya has a lower hunger rate than the United States (2%)

Education from grade school through to college was free in Libya.

Healthcare is free and Libyan pharmacies and hospitals are comparable to high-quality European facilities.

Libya ranks No. 53 on the United Nations Index of Human Development.

Libya has by far the highest standard of living in Africa.

In 1969 before Qaddafi it was the lowest in the world at just $60 per year income

Libya gives free land and seeds to anyone who wants to farm that land.

There is virtually no homelessness in Libya as everyone is given a home.

Women in Libya have equal rights, not only as a philosophy, but in practice.

Under Gaddafi’s oil-revenue-sharing program, each Libyan gets $500 (Dollars) deposited into his or her bank account each month.

For any medical care, operations, or health treatments that are unavailable in Libya, the citizen is given full expenses for travel, treatment and accommodation abroad to wherever is required for the treatment to be given.

On marriage, each couple was gifted $60,000 to do with as they please; furnish their home, take a holiday, honeymoon, buy car, etc.

Now THATS "Change you can believe in!"Oh shit. I just read who apparently complied that list.

CC has gone from apologist to shill.

[ElNono]

Do you really believe the population as a whole wants this?

:blah

I call it propaganda.

How long have you lived in Lybia for?

How many dictatorships have you lived under?

lol no freedom but "high HDI index!"
lol 'benevolent' dictator >>>>> freedom

[ChumpDumper]

I am making a long term prediction, and I already stated my reasons.

Stop asking me to recount my already stated reasons.

I'm not going to waste my time.You say that a lot when you can't actually say anything.

[CosmicCowboy]

I never thought you would put the kneepads on for an Arab dictator, CC.

You're an apologist and somehow, you're angry about it.

How about you give a link to that list you pasted above?

Chump, I'm not angry. Your obtuseness just gets tiresome.

[ChumpDumper]

Chump, I'm not angry. Your obtuseness just gets tiresome.So who wrote that list?

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh shit. I just read who apparently complied that list.

CC has gone from apologist to shill.

Well, if it's not true then refute it.

It's not like he was blowing the oil money on yachts, gold palaces, and ego skyscrapers like the kings and princes in Saudi Arabia and Dubai.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, if it's not true then refute it.

It's not like he was blowing the oil money on yachts, gold palaces, and ego skyscrapers like the kings and princes in Saudi Arabia and Dubai.Who wrote the list, CC?

[CosmicCowboy]

Health in Libya
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Basic health care is provided to all citizens. Health, training, rehabilitation, education, housing, family issues, and disability and old-age benefits are all regulated by “Decision No. 111” (dated December 9, 1999) of the General People’s Committee on the Promulgation of the By-Law Enforcement Law No. 20 of 1998 on the Social Care Fund. The health care system is not purely state-run but rather a mixed system of public and private care. In comparison to other states in the Middle East, the health status of the population is relatively good. Childhood immunization is almost universal. The clean water supply has increased, and sanitation has been improved. The country’s major hospitals are in Tripoli and Benghazi, and private health clinics and diagnostic centers, offering newer equipment and better service, compete with the public sector. However, if they can afford it, many Libyans nonetheless travel to either Tunisia or Europe if they need sophisticated medical treatment.[1]
The number of medical doctors and dentists reportedly increased sevenfold between 1970 and 1985, producing a ratio of one doctor per 673 citizens. In 1985 about one-third of the doctors in the Libya were native-born, with the remainder being primarily expatriate foreigners. The number of hospital beds tripled in this same time period. Among major health hazards endemic in the country in the 1970s were typhoid and paratyphoid, infectious hepatitis, leishmaniasis, rabies, meningitis, schistosomiasis, venereal diseases, and the principal childhood ailments. Malaria has been eradicated, and significant progress has been made against trachoma and leprosy. In 1985 the infant mortality rate was 84 per 1,000; by 2004, the U.S. Agency for International Development estimated that the infant mortality rate had dropped to 25.7 per 1,000. Other estimates report an infant mortality rate of less than 20 per 1,000. Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) cases are estimated at 7,000 and derive primarily from drug use. Multi-drug-resistant tuberculosis has begun to emerge among the population of drug users.[1]

[ChumpDumper]

Who wrote the list, CC?

[CosmicCowboy]

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/libya/literacy-rate-youth-total-percent-of-people-ages-15-24-wb-data.html

Literacy rate; youth total (% of people ages 15-24) in Libya

The Literacy rate; youth total (% of people ages 15-24) in Libya was reported at 99.80 in 2008, according to the World Bank. Youth literacy rate is the percentage of people ages 15-24 who can, with understanding, read and write a short, simple statement on their everyday life.This page includes a historical data chart, news and forecats for Literacy rate; youth total (% of people ages 15-24) in Libya. Libya has one of the highest GDP's per capita in Africa. Its economy relies primarily on revenues from the oil sector, which contribute about 95% of export earnings, 25% of GDP, and 60% of public sector wages. Libya's economy is centrally planned, yet in recent years the government started market oriented reforms like reducing subsidies and privatizing many government own companies.

[vy65]

Makes sense that the people of Libya would revolt against the oil-funded utopia Ghadafi provided . . .

[ChumpDumper]

So who wrote the list, CC?

[ElNono]

How was healthcare for those that didn't agree with this 'benevolent' dictator and spoke out about him?

[CosmicCowboy]

Education in Libya
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Primary education is both free and compulsory in Libya. Children between the ages of 6 and 15 attend primary school and then attend secondary school for three additional years (15- to 18-year-olds). According to figures reported for the year 2000, approximately 766,807 students attended primary school and had 97,334 teachers; approximately 717,000 students were enrolled in secondary, technical, and vocational schools; and about 287,172 students were enrolled in Libya’s universities.[1]
In 2001 public expenditures on education amounted to about 2.7 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). Although no figures were found for government expenditures on education, Libyan television announced on September 1, 2004, that a new ministry for education had been formed, the General People’s Committee for Higher Education.[1]
In the early 1980s, estimates of total literacy were between 50 and 60 percent, or about 70 percent for men and 35 percent for women, but the gender gap has since narrowed, especially because of increased female school attendance. For 2001 the United Nations Development Programme’s Human Development Report estimates that the adult literacy rate climbed to about 80.8 percent, or 91.3 percent for males and 69.3 percent for females. According to 2004 U.S. government estimates, 82 percent of the total adult population (age 15 and older) is literate, or 92 percent of males and 72 percent of females.[1]

[ChumpDumper]

Seriously, CC. Why are you dodging the question?

Who wrote the list you pasted in your apologist post?

[jack sommerset]

Seriously, CC. Why are you dodging the question?

Who wrote the list you pasted in your apologist post?

Probably one of barrys aids.

[ChumpDumper]

I think the Godwin-ing of this thread is implied.

Moussolini did make the trains run on time, as well.

[ChumpDumper]

Probably one of barrys aids.You're regressing. Didn't think that was possible.

[ElNono]

Libya is not an electoral democracy. Power theoretically lies with a system of people’s committees and the indirectly elected General People’s Congress, but in practice those structures are manipulated to ensure the continued dominance of Mu’ammar al-Qadhafi, who holds no official title. It is illegal for any political group to oppose the principles of the 1969 revolution, which are laid out in the Green Book, although market-based economic changes in recent years have diverged from the regime’s socialist ideals.

Political parties have been illegal for over 35 years, and the government strictly monitors political activity. Organizing or joining anything akin to a political party is punishable by long prison terms and even the death sentence. Many Libyan opposition movements and figures operate outside the country.

There is no independent press. The regime hardened its monopoly on media outlets in mid-2009 with the nationalization of Al-Ghad media group, which was established in 2007 by al-Qadhafi’s son, Saif al-Islam, and encompassed the country’s only quasi-independent newspapers and radio stations. The satellite television station Al-Libiya, a subsidiary of Al-Ghad and the country’s only private television outlet, had fallen under scrutiny after airing criticism of the Egyptian government. State-owned media largely operate as mouthpieces for the authorities, and journalists work in a climate of fear and self-censorship. Those who displease the regime face harassment or imprisonment on trumped-up charges. The government controls the country’s only internet service provider. The OpenNet Initiative found that dissident websites were censored and hacked sporadically in 2009, although less often than in previous years. The government established the first wireless service provider for public use in January. This may increase internet usage, which stood at only 4.7 percent in 2008 due to poor telecommunications infrastructure.

source (http://www.africa.com/libya/report)

[ElNono]

We wouldn't be able to be having this conversation in Lybia under Ghaday rule, tbh.

[vy65]

Libya is not an electoral democracy. Power theoretically lies with a system of people’s committees and the indirectly elected General People’s Congress, but in practice those structures are manipulated to ensure the continued dominance of Mu’ammar al-Qadhafi, who holds no official title. It is illegal for any political group to oppose the principles of the 1969 revolution, which are laid out in the Green Book, although market-based economic changes in recent years have diverged from the regime’s socialist ideals.

Political parties have been illegal for over 35 years, and the government strictly monitors political activity. Organizing or joining anything akin to a political party is punishable by long prison terms and even the death sentence. Many Libyan opposition movements and figures operate outside the country.

There is no independent press. The regime hardened its monopoly on media outlets in mid-2009 with the nationalization of Al-Ghad media group, which was established in 2007 by al-Qadhafi’s son, Saif al-Islam, and encompassed the country’s only quasi-independent newspapers and radio stations. The satellite television station Al-Libiya, a subsidiary of Al-Ghad and the country’s only private television outlet, had fallen under scrutiny after airing criticism of the Egyptian government. State-owned media largely operate as mouthpieces for the authorities, and journalists work in a climate of fear and self-censorship. Those who displease the regime face harassment or imprisonment on trumped-up charges. The government controls the country’s only internet service provider. The OpenNet Initiative found that dissident websites were censored and hacked sporadically in 2009, although less often than in previous years. The government established the first wireless service provider for public use in January. This may increase internet usage, which stood at only 4.7 percent in 2008 due to poor telecommunications infrastructure.

source (http://www.africa.com/libya/report)

But they have great teeth

[Wild Cobra]

How was healthcare for those that didn't agree with this 'benevolent' dictator and spoke out about him?
Why do liberals like you believe in the authoritarian approach of imposing our values on other sovereign nations?

"You will comply with our wishes, or we will fire 112 cruise missiles at you!"

[CosmicCowboy]

http://countrystudies.us/libya/55.htm

Libya Table of Contents
Social Welfare

A government advertisement appearing in an international publication in 1977 asserted that the Libyan social security legislation of 1973 ranked among the most comprehensive in the world and that it protected all citizens from many hazards associated with employment. The social security program instituted in 1957 had already provided protection superior to that available in many or most developing countries, and in the 1980s the welfare available to Libyans included much more than was provided under the social security law: work injury and sickness compensation and disability, retirement, and survivors' pensions. Workers employed by foreign firms were entitled to the same social security benefits as workers employed by Libyan citizens.

Subsidized food, inexpensive housing, free medical care and education, and profit-sharing were among the benefits that eased the lives of all citizens. The government protected the employed in their jobs and subsidized the underemployed and unemployed. In addition, there were nurseries to care for the children of working mothers, orphanages for homeless children, and homes for the aged. The welfare programs had reached even the oasis towns of the desert, where they reportedly were received with considerable satisfaction. The giving of alms to the poor remained one of the pillars of the Islamic faith, but the extent of public welfare was such that there was increasingly less place for private welfare. Nonetheless, the traditional Arab sense of family responsibility remained strong, and provision for needy relatives was still a common practice.

Medical Care

The number of physicians and surgeons in practice increased fivefold between 1965 and 1974, and large increases were registered in the number of dentists, medical, and paramedical personnel. Further expansion and improvement followed over the next decade in response to large budgetary outlays, as the revolutionary regime continued to use its oil income to improve the health and welfare of all Libyans. The number of doctors and dentists increased from 783 in 1970 to 5,450 in 1985, producing in the case of doctors a ratio of 1 per 673 citizens. These doctors were attached to a comprehensive network of health care facilities that dispensed free medical care. The number of hospital beds increased from 7,500 in 1970 to almost 20,000 by 1985, an improvement from 3.5 beds to 5.3 beds per 1,000 citizens. During the same years, substantial increases were also registered in the number of clinics and health care centers.

A large proportion of medical and paramedical personnel were foreigners brought in under contract from other Arab countries and from Eastern Europe. The major efforts to "Libyanize" health care professionals, however, were beginning to show results in the mid1980s . Libyan sources claimed that approximately 33 percent of all doctors were nationals in 1985, as compared with only about 6 percent a decade earlier. In the field of nursing staff and technicians, the situation was considerably better--about 80 percent were Libyan. Schools of nursing had been in existence since the early 1960s, and the faculties of medicine in the universities at Tripoli and Benghazi included specialized institutes for nurses and technicians. The first medical school was not established until 1970, and there was no school of dentistry until 1974. By 1978 a total of nearly 500 students was enrolled in medical studies at schools in Benghazi and Tripoli, and the dental school in Benghazi had graduated its first class of 23 students. In addition, some students were pursuing graduate medical studies abroad, but in the immediate future Libya was expected to continue to rely heavily on expatriate medical personnel.

Among the major health hazards endemic in the country in the 1970s were typhoid and paratyphoid, infectious hepatitis, leishmaniasis, rabies, meningitis, schistosomiasis, and venereal diseases. Also reported as having high incidence were various childhood diseases, such as whooping cough, mumps, measles, and chicken pox. Cholera occurred intermittently and, although malaria was regarded as having been eliminated in the 1960s, malaria suppressants were often recommended for use in desert oasis areas.

By the early 1980s, it was claimed that most or all of these diseases were under control. A high rate of trachoma formerly left 10 percent or more of the population blinded or with critically impaired vision, but by the late 1970s the disease appeared to have been brought under control. The incidence of new cases of tuberculosis was reduced by nearly half between 1969 and 1976, and twenty-two new centers for tuberculosis care were constructed between 1970 and 1985. By the early 1980s, two rehabilitation centers for the handicapped had been built, one each in Benghazi and Tripoli. These offered both medical and job-training services and complemented the range of health care services available in the country.

The streets of Tripoli and Benghazi were kept scrupulously clean, and drinking water in these cities was of good quality. The government had made significant efforts to provide safe water. In summing up accomplishments since 1970, officials listed almost 1,500 wells drilled and more than 900 reservoirs in service in 1985, in addition to 9,000 kilometers of potable water networks and 44 desalination plants. Sewage disposal had also received considerable attention, twenty-eight treatment plants having been built.

[ChumpDumper]

CC still won't say whose list he parroted.

[CosmicCowboy]

Seriously, CC. Why are you dodging the question?

Who wrote the list you pasted in your apologist post?

I compiled it from a couple of different summaries I read and left out any that couldn't be independently verified.

Are you not reading the sources I am giving you?

[CosmicCowboy]

CC still won't say whose list he parroted.

So the World Bank, scholarly reports, and Wikipedia aren't viable sources?

Give up, Chump.

[ChumpDumper]

I compiled it from a couple of different summaries I read and left out any that couldn't be independently verified.

Are you not reading the sources I am giving you?I'm talking about the original apologist list you pasted.

Who wrote that?

[jack sommerset]

LoL. You "apparently" know who wrote the list so start bashing the guy you think put the list together instead of refuting what he wrote. The suspense is killing me!

[Wild Cobra]

Libya is not an electoral democracy. Power theoretically lies with a system of people’s committees and the indirectly elected General People’s Congress, but in practice those structures are manipulated to ensure the continued dominance of Mu’ammar al-Qadhafi, who holds no official title. It is illegal for any political group to oppose the principles of the 1969 revolution, which are laid out in the Green Book, although market-based economic changes in recent years have diverged from the regime’s socialist ideals.

Political parties have been illegal for over 35 years, and the government strictly monitors political activity. Organizing or joining anything akin to a political party is punishable by long prison terms and even the death sentence. Many Libyan opposition movements and figures operate outside the country.

There is no independent press. The regime hardened its monopoly on media outlets in mid-2009 with the nationalization of Al-Ghad media group, which was established in 2007 by al-Qadhafi’s son, Saif al-Islam, and encompassed the country’s only quasi-independent newspapers and radio stations. The satellite television station Al-Libiya, a subsidiary of Al-Ghad and the country’s only private television outlet, had fallen under scrutiny after airing criticism of the Egyptian government. State-owned media largely operate as mouthpieces for the authorities, and journalists work in a climate of fear and self-censorship. Those who displease the regime face harassment or imprisonment on trumped-up charges. The government controls the country’s only internet service provider. The OpenNet Initiative found that dissident websites were censored and hacked sporadically in 2009, although less often than in previous years. The government established the first wireless service provider for public use in January. This may increase internet usage, which stood at only 4.7 percent in 2008 due to poor telecommunications infrastructure.

source (http://www.africa.com/libya/report)

Maybe you should compare that to the CIA Factbook on Libya (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ly.html)

[ChumpDumper]

So the World Bank, scholarly reports, and Wikipedia aren't viable sources?

Give up, Chump.I see you haven't given up dodging the question I asked before your wikipedia carpet bombing.

[ElNono]

Why do liberals like you believe in the authoritarian approach of imposing our values on other sovereign nations?

We didn't impose anything. You're authoritarian, and I'm not a liberal.


"You will comply with our wishes, or we will fire 112 cruise missiles at you!"

Do you disagree with the UN resolution that authorized the attacks?
What part you specifically disagree with?

[ChumpDumper]

LoL. You "apparently" know who wrote the list so start bashing the guy you think put the list together instead of refuting what he wrote. The suspense is killing me!I've seen to whom it has been attributed.

I'm sure you haven't.

[Wild Cobra]

We didn't impose anything. You're authoritarian, and I'm not a liberal.



Do you disagree with the UN resolution that authorized the attacks?
What part you specifically disagree with?
Absolutely, and all of it that I know of.

There may be things I missed, but there was nothing that justified aiding a civil war, that would have ended soon after starting without UN help.

[jack sommerset]

I've seen to whom it has been attributed.

I'm sure you haven't.

Let the bashing begin then.

[DMX7]

CC works for the Libya Chamber of Commerce. No one would hire him in America.

[ChumpDumper]

Let the bashing begin then.See if you can find out who wrote it, jack. I'm not convinced you can.

[Wild Cobra]

CC works for the Libya Chamber of Commerce. No one would hire him in America.
Shouldn't that be in blue?

[vy65]

Maybe you should compare that to the CIA Factbook on Libya (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ly.html)

lol.

tier rating: Tier 3 - the Libyan Government failed to demonstrate significant efforts to investigate and prosecute trafficking offenses or to protect trafficking victims; the government's policies and practices with respect to undocumented migrant workers resulted in Libyan authorities also punishing trafficking victims for unlawful acts that were committed as a result of their being trafficked; following the outbreak of civil unrest in February 2011, accurate information regarding the situation in Libya has become very limited (2011)

[ChumpDumper]

Upset? Gadhafi nationalized the evil oil companies and used the money to:

increase literacy from 10% to 90%

Libya has a lower hunger rate than the United States (2%)

Education from grade school through to college was free in Libya.

Healthcare is free and Libyan pharmacies and hospitals are comparable to high-quality European facilities.

Libya ranks No. 53 on the United Nations Index of Human Development.

Libya has by far the highest standard of living in Africa.

In 1969 before Qaddafi it was the lowest in the world at just $60 per year income

Libya gives free land and seeds to anyone who wants to farm that land.

There is virtually no homelessness in Libya as everyone is given a home.

Women in Libya have equal rights, not only as a philosophy, but in practice.

Under Gaddafi’s oil-revenue-sharing program, each Libyan gets $500 (Dollars) deposited into his or her bank account each month.

For any medical care, operations, or health treatments that are unavailable in Libya, the citizen is given full expenses for travel, treatment and accommodation abroad to wherever is required for the treatment to be given.

On marriage, each couple was gifted $60,000 to do with as they please; furnish their home, take a holiday, honeymoon, buy car, etc.

Now THATS "Change you can believe in!"This is the post to which I'm referring.

I am asking CC to whom it is widely attributed.

He has yet to answer.

[ElNono]

Maybe you should compare that to the CIA Factbook on Libya (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ly.html)

I did. Please quote where it contradicts what I posted about political/information freedom. Thanks.

[ElNono]

There may be things I missed, but there was nothing that justified aiding a civil war, that would have ended soon after starting without UN help.

Says who, you? :lol

Please stop beating around the bush and point out what part of the UN resolution that enabled the use of force by coalition forces you didn't agree with.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm talking about the original apologist list you pasted.

Who wrote that?

Some guy with an arabic name. (imagine that!) I don't know him. It was just a summary to start the dialogue. Why not just argue the facts? Because you can't?

[ChumpDumper]

Some guy with an arabic name. (imagine that!) I don't know him. It was just a summary to start the dialogue. Why not just argue the facts? Because you can't?I am arguing a fact here.

I believe you are lying about not knowing who he is because, up to now, you have seemed to intelligent to not figure out a source that provided your verbatim belief of the Lybian government.

If not, why not just google his name and find out?

I'll wait.

[clambake]

this thread, like jesus, has risen!

[CosmicCowboy]

I am arguing a fact here.

I believe you are lying about not knowing who he is because, up to now, you have seemed to intelligent to not figure out a source that provided your verbatim belief of the Lybian government.

If not, why not just google his name and find out?

I'll wait.

The main reason is I could care less who wrote a summary I paraphrased in my post.

Whats your point? Was health care free? Was education free? Was housing free? Did he not nationalize the evil oil companies and spend that money to give his people free shit?

He had very Obamaesque goals for Libya.

[Wild Cobra]

I did. Please quote where it contradicts what I posted about political/information freedom. Thanks.
Sorry I didn't specify. I meant the telecommunications.

[Wild Cobra]

Says who, you? :lol

Please stop beating around the bush and point out what part of the UN resolution that enabled the use of force by coalition forces you didn't agree with.
My recall has it that they called for stopping Gaddafi from killing the protesters. Remember the couple videos that showed these so-called protesters had weapons? I wonder, who fired the first shots?

I'm sorry, I simply do not buy the UN reasoning. Looks like lies to me.

I guess just because the UN says so, it must be gospel, huh?

[ElNono]

Sorry I didn't specify. I meant the telecommunications.

Broadcast media:
state controls broadcast media; state-owned terrestrial TV station and about a half-dozen state-owned satellite stations broadcast; some provinces operate local TV stations; a single, non-state-owned TV station launched in 2007; pan-Arab satellite TV stations are available; state-owned radio broadcasts on a number of frequencies, some of which carry regional programming; Voice of Africa, Libya's external radio service, can also be heard; a single, non-state-owned radio station broadcasting (2007)

What is exactly of note there? How much dissent you think it's allowed on 100% state-owned media? lol

[ChumpDumper]

The main reason is I could care less who wrote a summary I paraphrased in my post.You mean, you knew and believed all that on your own before you came across that list by some Arab guy you don't know?

Give us a link to his list so we can see what you paraphrased.

Thanks.

[CosmicCowboy]

BTW, a lot of those "Libyan Freedom fighters" were really Egyptian religious fundamentalists who had fled to Libya over the years to escape Mubarek...they had taken up residence in Eastern Libya and when their "brothers" overthrew Mubarek, they decided to try the same in Libya...then the UN steps in and WOOHOO the groundwork for another Fundamentalist Theocracy is set...long live the Mullahs!

[ChumpDumper]

BTW, a lot of those "Libyan Freedom fighters" were really Egyptian religious fundamentalists who had fled to Libya over the years to escape Mubarek...they had taken up residence in Eastern Libya and when their "brothers" overthrew Mubarek, they decided to try the same in Libya...then the UN steps in and WOOHOO the groundwork for another Fundamentalist Theocracy is set...long live the Mullahs!Link?

[ElNono]

My recall has it that they called for stopping Gaddafi from killing the protesters. Remember the couple videos that showed these so-called protesters had weapons? I wonder, who fired the first shots?

So that's what's this is about? Some conspiracy theory? :lol
The world is against a 'benevolent' dictator :cry :cry :cry

What's YOUR evidence that the rebels fired first?


I'm sorry, I simply do not buy the UN reasoning. Looks like lies to me.
I guess just because the UN says so, it must be gospel, huh?

Well, we just happen to have an agreement with the UN. And the US as a country agreed with that assessment.

[Wild Cobra]

Broadcast media:
state controls broadcast media; state-owned terrestrial TV station and about a half-dozen state-owned satellite stations broadcast; some provinces operate local TV stations; a single, non-state-owned TV station launched in 2007; pan-Arab satellite TV stations are available; state-owned radio broadcasts on a number of frequencies, some of which carry regional programming; Voice of Africa, Libya's external radio service, can also be heard; a single, non-state-owned radio station broadcasting (2007)

What is exactly of note there? How much dissent you think it's allowed on 100% state-owned media? lol
Do you always ignore the few good things listed?

Does this:

This may increase internet usage, which stood at only 4.7 percent in 2008 due to poor telecommunications infrastructure.
sound right with these facts:

Population:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
6,597,960 (July 2011 est.)
country comparison to the world: 102
note: includes 166,510 non-nationals

Telephones - main lines in use:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
1.101 million (2009)
country comparison to the world: 75
Telephones - mobile cellular:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
5.004 million (2009)
country comparison to the world: 95
Not such bad numbers for the population. Especially for an African nation.

Show me a better African nation.

Maybe the UN should bomb all of Africa into democracy?

[CosmicCowboy]

You mean, you knew and believed all that on your own before you came across that list by some Arab guy you don't know?

Give us a link to his list so we can see what you paraphrased.

Thanks.

yeah Mr. Obvious. Unlike you I had educated myself on Libya and didn't swallow eveything I was thrown by the US media.

[CosmicCowboy]

Link?

Fuck you. If you don't care to make some effort to educate yourself then don't. I'm not going to spoon feed you so you can nit pick out of context.

[ElNono]

Do you always ignore the few good things listed?
Does this:
sound right with these facts:
Not such bad numbers for the population. Especially for an African nation.
Show me a better African nation.
Maybe the UN should bomb all of Africa into democracy?

Who's ignoring what?


Those who displease the regime face harassment or imprisonment on trumped-up charges. The government controls the country’s only internet service provider. The OpenNet Initiative found that dissident websites were censored and hacked sporadically in 2009, although less often than in previous years.

tbh, not surprised an authoritarian like you gives two thumbs up to censored internet access that can land you in jail.

[ChumpDumper]

yeah Mr. Obvious. Unlike you I had educated myself on Libya and didn't swallow eveything I was thrown by the US media.


Fuck you. If you don't care to make some effort to educate yourself then don't. I'm not going to spoon feed you so you can nit pick out of context.You're really sensitive today.

I understand you could be embarrassed to reveal your source for that list. It's a strong possibility.

[Wild Cobra]

Who's ignoring what?



tbh, not surprised an authoritarian like you gives two thumbs up to censored internet access that can land you in jail.
You are an idiot to mistake my acceptance of a sovereign nations rights for agreeing with them.

These people know the law. They knew the penalties. Now you treat them as innocence?

My God... Just how ignorant are you?

Those who live within the laws of Libya, have a good life. Who are we to interfere with nations who re no threat to us?

Again, since we attacked Libya, over trumped up reasons, when they rate as high as they do in the HDI, when are we going to attack the 100+ nations who are worse?

[ElNono]

You are an idiot to mistake my acceptance of a sovereign nations rights

What rights are those, and under what charter?

Please quote the relevant portions of the UN resolution that you think are 'illegal' and back them up. It's your claim, thus your burden.

[vy65]

What rights are those, and under what charter?

Please quote the relevant portions of the UN resolution that you think are 'illegal' and back them up. It's your claim, thus your burden.

WC thinks sovereign nations have the right to brutalize and oppress their own people. He probably also thinks they should have the right to commit genocide.

[CosmicCowboy]

WC thinks sovereign nations have the right to brutalize and oppress their own people. He probably also thinks they should have the right to commit genocide.

:lmao

Y'all act like this is something new to Africa.

And yeah, the good old US of A ignores it all the time.

[CosmicCowboy]

Don't expect to see any predator drones in Syria.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

Y'all act like this is something new to Africa.

And yeah, the good old US of A ignores it all the time.
They just don't get it.

There are far worse dictators to take out then Gaddafi. That's why I have asked, "who's next," mention the line in the sand we drew, etc.

[Wild Cobra]

Don't expect to see any predator drones in Syria.
Wow...

A nation likely 10 times worse than Libya, and we aren't going to do anything about their human rights abuses?

Oh wait...

They aren't 100% self sufficient like Libya was. They actually need the UN!

[ElNono]

What rights are those, and under what charter?

Please quote the relevant portions of the UN resolution that you think are 'illegal' and back them up. It's your claim, thus your burden.

[ElNono]

Don't expect to see any predator drones in Syria.

I expect them to be there if the UN imposes a no-fly zone against Syria.

Why not?

[vy65]

:lmao

Y'all act like this is something new to Africa.

And yeah, the good old US of A ignores it all the time.

Are these reasons why the international community shouldn't have gotten involved in Libya?

[ChumpDumper]

They just don't get it.

There are far worse dictators to take out then Gaddafi. That's why I have asked, "who's next," mention the line in the sand we drew, etc.So who do you think is next and what is your evidence supporting your claim of who is next?

[CosmicCowboy]

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/22/if-libya-why-not-syria/

If Libya, why not Syria?
Editor's Note: Tom Malinowski is the Washington Director for Human Rights Watch. Previously, he was special assistant to President Bill Clinton and senior director for foreign policy speechwriting at the National Security Council. The following is an edited transcript of his oral response to the following interview question: If Libya proves successful, why not Syria?
There are big differences between Syria and Libya in terms of the kind of intervention that’s possible or desirable.
In Libya, the opposition found itself in the first week of its revolt in control of almost half of the country’s territory. And then a conventional armed military force marched in their direction with bloody intentions. It was possible for NATO to interdict that force and protect the civilians in opposition-held areas by air power alone.
In Syria, that’s not the case.
The protest movement is dispersed throughout the country. The Syrian government and military still control every city in the country.
Even if an armed military intervention were welcomed by the Syrian people, it’s hard to see how air power alone could protect them from Assad’s snipers and tanks.
On top of that, it wouldn’t be welcomed because the Syrian opposition has said very clearly that they don’t want that kind of outside intervention.
They do want political support; they want economic sanctions; they want a lot of other things but not military intervention. So there are those differences.
All of these regimes are fairly hollow at the core. They resist change violently as long as they can. But once people lose their fear and once people supporting or defending the regime conclude that the tide has turned against them, they tend to collapse relatively quickly.
So I think you do have this common pattern of apparent stalemate for weeks or months on end followed by very rapid collapse. That’s what happened in Libya and it will be interesting to see whether something similar happens in Syria.

[ElNono]

why not Syria?

[ChumpDumper]

So you guys support the dictatorship in Syria too?

[ChumpDumper]

why not Syria?It's not like the precedent hasn't been set.

And not by Obama.

[vy65]

Lol Assad sympathizer.

[CosmicCowboy]

Are these reasons why the international community shouldn't have gotten involved in Libya?

Are there reasons why the international community didn't get involved with all the other Genocidal African Dictators and we just sat by while they slaughtered their people?

[vy65]

Are there reasons why the international community didn't get involved with all the other Genocidal African Dictators and we just sat by while they slaughtered their people?

I don't see what that has to do with my question.

[CosmicCowboy]

Chump, you are like a fucking parrot.

Do you ever have an original, well thought out take on anything or is the best you can do just to come in and nip and snipe at others?

[ChumpDumper]

Are there reasons why the international community didn't get involved with all the other Genocidal African Dictators and we just sat by while they slaughtered their people?

Are there reasons why the international community did get involved with another genocidal Arab dictator and we sacrificed thousands of American lives to that end?

[ChumpDumper]

Chump, you are like a fucking parrot.

Do you ever have an original, well thought out take on anything or is the best you can do just to come in and nip and snipe at others?I'm asking you whom you are parroting.

You still haven't answered.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't see what that has to do with my question.

Your stupid question?

Yeah, we just put our international stamp of approval on whatever fucked up mess eventually comes out of Libya.

Just like Bush in Iraq, there was no thought on what our end game would be if the revolt succeeded.

[TDMVPDPOY]

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/22/if-libya-why-not-syria/

If Libya, why not Syria?
Editor's Note: Tom Malinowski is the Washington Director for Human Rights Watch. Previously, he was special assistant to President Bill Clinton and senior director for foreign policy speechwriting at the National Security Council. The following is an edited transcript of his oral response to the following interview question: If Libya proves successful, why not Syria?
There are big differences between Syria and Libya in terms of the kind of intervention that’s possible or desirable.
In Libya, the opposition found itself in the first week of its revolt in control of almost half of the country’s territory. And then a conventional armed military force marched in their direction with bloody intentions. It was possible for NATO to interdict that force and protect the civilians in opposition-held areas by air power alone.
In Syria, that’s not the case.
The protest movement is dispersed throughout the country. The Syrian government and military still control every city in the country.
Even if an armed military intervention were welcomed by the Syrian people, it’s hard to see how air power alone could protect them from Assad’s snipers and tanks.
On top of that, it wouldn’t be welcomed because the Syrian opposition has said very clearly that they don’t want that kind of outside intervention.
They do want political support; they want economic sanctions; they want a lot of other things but not military intervention. So there are those differences.
All of these regimes are fairly hollow at the core. They resist change violently as long as they can. But once people lose their fear and once people supporting or defending the regime conclude that the tide has turned against them, they tend to collapse relatively quickly.
So I think you do have this common pattern of apparent stalemate for weeks or months on end followed by very rapid collapse. That’s what happened in Libya and it will be interesting to see whether something similar happens in Syria.

u also forgot syria has many allies thats willing to help it fight a war...lebanon, iran and some arab states...all can change if those allied countries end up in arab spring

[CosmicCowboy]

Are there reasons why the international community did get involved with another genocidal Arab dictator and we sacrificed thousands of American lives to that end?

The only variable I see that Iraq and Libya have in common that those genocidal dictators in Africa didn't have was oil.

So Chump, you support war for oil?

[vy65]

Your stupid question?

Yeah, we just put our international stamp of approval on whatever fucked up mess eventually comes out of Libya.

Just like Bush in Iraq, there was no thought on what our end game would be if the revolt succeeded.

Lol you're getting shitted on and are just making this worse.

Please explain how the UN and NATO were invovled with Bush's invasion of Iraq.

[CosmicCowboy]

Lol you're getting shitted on and are just making this worse.

Please explain how the UN and NATO were invovled with Bush's invasion of Iraq.

Please quit asking me to do the homework on your stupid questions. Google is your friend.

[ChumpDumper]

The only variable I see that Iraq and Libya have in common that those genocidal dictators in Africa didn't have was oil.The Sudan has plenty of oil.

[ChumpDumper]

Please quit asking me to do the homework on your stupid questions. Google is your friend.I only found your list on other forums.

Where did you find it?

[vy65]

Please quit asking me to do the homework on your stupid questions. Google is your friend.


Yeah, we just put our international stamp of approval on whatever fucked up mess eventually comes out of Libya.

Just like Bush in Iraq, there was no thought on what our end game would be if the revolt succeeded.

You brought it up. You have homework to do.

Lol Assad sympathizer.

[CosmicCowboy]

The Sudan has plenty of oil.

Sorry, the sudan is so fucked up theres nothing even we could do to fix it.

[jack sommerset]

The important message is that war is good under a democratic president and you don't need permission from congress.

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry, the sudan is so fucked up theres nothing even we could do to fix it.So you think the others can be fixed.

Nice.

Is the genocide still going on in the Sudan? What do your sources say?

[CosmicCowboy]

I only found your list on other forums.

Where did you find it?

Chump I found the list on a forum and then proceeded to provide independent verification for the list so give it up. You've beat that straw man enough. If you can refute the facts then refute the facts. Otherwise just shut the fuck up.

[ChumpDumper]

The important message is that war is good under a democratic president and you don't need permission from congress.jack is now a constitutional scholar.

[jack sommerset]

jack is now a constitutional scholar.

Chump now loves war.

[ChumpDumper]

Chump I found the list on a forum and then proceeded to provide independent verification for the list so give it up. You've beat that straw man enough. If you can refute the facts then refute the facts. Otherwise just shut the fuck up.Which forum?

I didn't see every point you already knew but paraphrased from some Arab guy you don't know independently verified.

You still have some work to do.

[George Gervin's Afro]

The important message is that war is good under a democratic president and you don't need permission from congress.

nah, just the one's where we sacrifice 4400 lives for nothing..even a dumba$$ like yourself could figure that out.

[ChumpDumper]

Chump now loves war.Nah, I'm just entertained by your and others' partisan love for dictatorships.

[ElNono]

The important message is that war is good under a democratic president and you don't need permission from congress.

Not really. I certainly don't agree with that message. I especially don't agree with the 'don't need permission from congress' part.

The good part of the message is that working with international allies under the umbrella of the UN can bring positives, including saving money and american lives.

[vy65]

So lemme get this straight:

Unilateral war (ignoring the wishes of the international community/pissing them off in the process) with a country that leads to a ground troop presence for years along with tens of thousands of dead Americans is good?

Multilateral air and missle support (under the auspices of the UN and NATO) with a country with no ground troop presence and minimal US casualties is bad?

[jack sommerset]

nah, just the one's where we sacrifice 4400 lives for nothing..even a dumba$$ like yourself could figure that out.

You know the biggest casualities of the Afgan war took place a couple of weeks ago. You know the war where barry sent more troops. So much for ending the wars! You like the US murdering people that have nothing to do with us, sick fuck. Especially by using robots, god you are one sick fucker.

[vy65]

lol Jack


White House officials and Democratic insiders are pushing back. Officials have released dates and times that President Obama met with a bipartisan group of lawmakers in recent weeks, including one widely reported discussion in the Situation Room last Friday attended by more than 15 congressional leaders. (Speaker John Boehner has responded that those sessions were designed mostly as courtesy briefings rather than actual requests for input.) “It’s not exactly valid criticism,” says Democratic strategist Steve McMahon. “Lots of people have been calling on the president to [set up a no-fly zone], and when the U.N. did it, the White House said America’s in as part of a coalition. It’s the most responsible walk-up to military action that I’ve seen from a president in a long time.”

[jack sommerset]

Nah, I'm just entertained by your and others' partisan love for dictatorships.

Nah, your stance on war has changed. You like it now.

[jack sommerset]

lol Jack

Giggling at murder. Nice!

[vy65]

Giggling at murder. Nice!

lol changing the subject when proven wrong

lol partisan hackery

[ChumpDumper]

Nah, your stance on war has changed. You like it now.Nah, you're just stupid. That hasn't changed.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You know the biggest casualities of the Afgan war took place a couple of weeks ago. You know the war where barry sent more troops. So much for ending the wars! You like the US murdering people that have nothing to do with us, sick fuck. Especially by using robots, god you are one sick fucker.

so you're against war now..

[djohn2oo8]

Nah, you're just stupid. That hasn't changed.
:lol

[djohn2oo8]

You know the biggest casualities of the Afgan war took place a couple of weeks ago. You know the war where barry sent more troops. So much for ending the wars! You like the US murdering people that have nothing to do with us, sick fuck. Especially by using robots, god you are one sick fucker.

http://yougotowned.net/you_got_owned_yel.gif

[DMX7]

Jack, did you make this linkedin page?

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jack-sommerset/8/7b5/82a

Even if you're not a "met" packer at Tyson Foods, that's too awesome to ignore.

[Wild Cobra]

Jack, did you make this linkedin page?

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jack-sommerset/8/7b5/82a

Even if you're not a "met" packer at Tyson Foods, that's too awesome to ignore.
I think you created that profile, just to show us!

[DMX7]

I think you created that profile, just to show us!

I honestly didn't, lol. I know how to spell "meat".

[jack sommerset]

Nah, you're just stupid. That hasn't changed.

Nah, you're a hypocrite,petty and insecure. That hasn't changed.

[jack sommerset]

....

[DMX7]

Jack, I don't know if you know this, but Tyson Foods is not in the consumer electronics industry.

[ChumpDumper]

Nah, you're a hypocrite,petty and insecure. That hasn't changed.Give me a link to my saying I support this action in Lybia.

[jack sommerset]

Give me a link to my saying I support this action in Lybia.

It's written all over your post.

[DMC]

Iran is next

[jack sommerset]

The Scramble for Access to Libya’s Oil Wealth Begins

Western nations — especially the NATO countries that provided crucial air support to the rebels — want to make sure their companies are in prime position to pump the Libyan crude.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/business/global/the-scramble-for-access-to-libyas-oil-wealth-begins.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

[ElNono]

The Scramble for Access to Libya’s Oil Wealth Begins

Western nations — especially the NATO countries that provided crucial air support to the rebels — want to make sure their companies are in prime position to pump the Libyan crude.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/business/global/the-scramble-for-access-to-libyas-oil-wealth-begins.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Reminds me of:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html

[ChumpDumper]

It's written all over your post.Where?

Be specific for once in your life.

I'm glad it seems to be going well and really glad no Americans have been killed, but I have no idea what will happen next.

[boutons_deux]

Libya has oil

Syria doesn't

Guess which one gets bombed and which one gets lip service

[Borat Sagyidev]

I don't think anyone is happy at all about the association of oil and military acts. fact of the matter is, I'd rather do it properly if we're going to do it at all. Iraq is a glaring example of how not to do it, infact the entire Iraq war was to be paid by oil revenues as the Bush admin planned.


If these oil revenues keep the rich scum contained and content like the Koch brothers, Obama can be reelected and finally work to finish the noble job of progressing the job to socialist harmonious society

in conclusion,
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Su-oKwnBTcc/Tb5z5_bBB3I/AAAAAAAABXU/0UYlkvTWiSY/s1600/obama+busy.jpg

[boutons_deux]

Oil companies see quick return to Libya, once peace restored

WASHINGTON — With the regime of Moammar Gadhafi on the verge of collapse, international oil companies began preparing Monday for what they hope will be a quick return to production in Libya, a move that’s expected to reduce the global price of crude and help drive down U.S. gasoline prices.

Companies, most of which withdrew their expatriate staffs when fighting began in February, said that Libya's oil installations appeared largely undamaged from months of warfare and that once peace was restored, production and exports should resume quickly.

“Our people are ready to go back to work when the conflict is resolved. From that point forward, they can return to production in four weeks or less,” said Carmen Herrero, a spokeswoman in Madrid for the Spanish oil company Repsol.

Before the war, Repsol’s joint venture with the National Oil Corp. of Libya was producing about 35,000 barrels of oil daily at the El Shararah oil field in the central Libyan desert near Ubari. The last word Repsol officials had from their Libyan staff, in late July, was that the fighting hadn't affected the installations.

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/08/22/121596/oil-companies-see-quick-return.html#ixzz1VthN2x8q


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/08/22/121596/oil-companies-see-quick-return.html

[Winehole23]

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2011/08/30/a_premature_celebration_in_libya_99647.html

[boutons_deux]

Libya, like Iraq and Aghanistan, will be a bloody, corrupt, civil-warring mess for decades after the initial "victory". All 3 countries lack stable, experienced institutions to serve as infrastructure for civil society.

[cheguevara]

Libya, like Iraq and Aghanistan, will be a bloody, corrupt, civil-warring mess for decades after the initial "victory". All 3 countries lack stable, experienced institutions to serve as infrastructure for civil society.

pretty much agree. The arab countries will go from military oppresive goverments to corrupt weak goverments (like most of the South American ones)

It's still an improvement IMO. They'll go from poor and oppressed to poor and free.

[coyotes_geek]

It's still an improvement IMO. They'll go from poor and oppressed to poor and free.

Remains to be seen.

[ElNono]

They might not end up free. But they're getting what they think they want. And that's an improvement.

[coyotes_geek]

They might not end up free. But they're getting what they think they want. And that's an improvement.

I think you could look back at least three U.S. presidential elections and debate whether or not getting what you think you want is an improvement.

That being said, I hope it works out for them.

[cheguevara]

likely the new goverments will support most of the basic freedoms (at least that is the plan):
(1) life, liberty, and property
(2) freedom of speech and press
(3) right to trial by jury
(4) freedom to travel
(5) freedom of religion
(6) freedom to educate your children as you see fit
(7) right to own and run your own business
(8) right to defend yourself including the right to own guns
(9) right not to be spied on by government
(10) right to vote

way improved over the oppresive goverments which supported none

[cheguevara]

yeah it will still be ashithole but at least you can own a gun and talk shit about your goverment like any "free" american.

[coyotes_geek]

likely the new goverments will support most of the basic freedoms (at least that is the plan):
(1) life, liberty, and property
(2) freedom of speech and press
(3) right to trial by jury
(4) freedom to travel
(5) freedom of religion
(6) freedom to educate your children as you see fit
(7) right to own and run your own business
(8) right to defend yourself including the right to own guns
(9) right not to be spied on by government
(10) right to vote

way improved over the oppresive goverments which supported none

It's a great plan. Worked like a charm in Iraq. :tu

[cheguevara]

It's a great plan. Worked like a charm in Iraq. :tu

can't really compare a citizen led revolution to an american military invasion and "reconstruction".

[coyotes_geek]

can't really compare a citizen led revolution whose entire success was based on american military intervention to an american military invasion and "reconstruction".

fify.

[cheguevara]

still can't compare. apples to oranges.

it's actually like trying to make a salad with green tomatoes vs. ripe tomatoes.

[coyotes_geek]

Like I said earlier, I hope it works out.

[mingus]

can't really compare a citizen led revolution to an american military invasion and "reconstruction".

that's why i supported the air support from the beginning. the rebels had an emotional investment in bettering the country, they led the revolution. Iraq was different.

from what i've read on him via wiki, i like the leader (Mahmoud Jibil) of the transitional council. he's not just a puppet for western powers.

from wiki:

Jibril declared, "Today, all Libya's people are allowed to participate in the building of the future to build institutions with the aid of a constitution that does not differentiate between a man and a woman, sects or ethnicities. Libya is for everyone and will now be for everyone. Libya has the right to create an example that will be followed in the Arab region."

[RandomGuy]

gaddafi was bad but not nearly as bad as al qaeda running the country now

Link?


Or is that what Fox "news" told you to believe about the situation?

or maybe you actually believed Ghadaffi's propaganda?

Do tell.

[RandomGuy]

still can't compare. apples to oranges.

it's actually like trying to make a salad with green tomatoes vs. ripe tomatoes.

Exactly.

Any comparison to Iraq is purely specious. A popular uprising against a dictator supported by air strikes vs. an active invasion and occupation by a foreign army deposing a dictator


LOL conservatives that don't want to treat the Libyans like grown ups who can and should make their own choices.

[Wild Cobra]

3/19/11:

kadafi is definitely not a kind leader. However, the us and un are now interfering with a sovereign nations rights to defend itself against enemies, foreign and domestic.

i'll give 5:1 odd that if kadafi is overthrown, we will have a worse government in the aftermath to deal with than under his leadership.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Link?


Or is that what Fox "news" told you to believe about the situation?

or maybe you actually believed Ghadaffi's propaganda?

Do tell.

Fox news is anti-war now..

[vy65]

This is pretty tight

Road trip! American student joins rebels in fight for Qaddafi stronghold

http://www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles//Assets/Richmedia/Image2/fo02se-LibyaRoadTrip.jpg

http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/middle-east/road-trip-american-student-joins-rebels-in-fight-for-qaddafi-stronghold

[ElNono]

I think you could look back at least three U.S. presidential elections and debate whether or not getting what you think you want is an improvement.

At the time of voting people certainly thought so. The aftermath is always a different story. The thing with 'change' is that at least there's the 'hope' you'll get better. If you stay with the shit sandwich, you know that's all you're getting.

[Wild Cobra]

This is pretty tight

Road trip! American student joins rebels in fight for Qaddafi stronghold

http://www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles//Assets/Richmedia/Image2/fo02se-LibyaRoadTrip.jpg

http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/middle-east/road-trip-american-student-joins-rebels-in-fight-for-qaddafi-stronghold
I think it's pretty stupid.

[ElNono]

The OP is pretty stupid too

[RandomGuy]

3/19/11:
kadafi is definitely not a kind leader. However, the us and un are now interfering with a sovereign nations rights to defend itself against enemies, foreign and domestic.

i'll give 5:1 odd that if kadafi is overthrown, we will have a worse government in the aftermath to deal with than under his leadership.


So you want a medal for predicting that a developing country with no civic institutions to speak of will have some difficulties after getting rid of a dictator and his cronies who have held power for 40 years? Really?

http://www.successcertificates.com/wp-content/uploads/image/certificate_images/achiev30001.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Kadafi is definitely not a kind leader. however, the US and UN are now interfering with a sovereign nations rights to defend itself against enemies, foreign and domestic.
.

Now that Ghadafi is gone, and the country moves towards democracy, should we support it?

Since there is a new government, and essentially now the roles are switched, do we support a new government in surpressing the rebels following Ghadafi?

Do tell.

[ElNono]

"rights to defend itself against enemies, foreign and domestic"

Didn't know Lybia was using the United States Oath of Allegiance as the law of their land, tbh...

Do they recite the whole thing?
"I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

:lol

[Wild Cobra]

So you want a medal for predicting that a developing country with no civic institutions to speak of will have some difficulties after getting rid of a dictator and his cronies who have held power for 40 years? Really?

http://www.successcertificates.com/wp-content/uploads/image/certificate_images/achiev30001.jpg
No...

Just wait a few years to see if I'm right.

[Wild Cobra]

Now that Ghadafi is gone, and the country moves towards democracy, should we support it?
LOL...

You believe that PR stunt?

I don't.

But....

I do hope I'm wrong!

Since there is a new government, and essentially now the roles are switched, do we support a new government in surpressing the rebels following Ghadafi?

Do tell.
I tend to believe they will act worse than Gaddafi did.

We can now only wait and see.

[Wild Cobra]

"rights to defend itself against enemies, foreign and domestic"

Didn't know Lybia was using the United States Oath of Allegiance as the law of their land, tbh...

Do they recite the whole thing?
"I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

:lol
I'm touched.

You use my words, assuming I quoted them?

You know, I used those words purposely because of how so many other advocate sovereign nation rights.

[RandomGuy]

gaddafi was bad but not nearly as bad as al qaeda running the country now

Link?


Or is that what Fox "news" told you to believe about the situation?

or maybe you actually believed Ghadaffi's propaganda?

Do tell. Still waiting.

[ElNono]

I'm touched.
You use my words, assuming I quoted them?

No, I assume you just don't know what you're talking about. Looks like I was right.


You know, I used those words purposely because of how so many other advocate sovereign nation rights.

You claimed the US violated those rights. I asked you to show where are those rights granted and under what charter, and you never responded.

So now you tell me it was just wishful thinking? Okay.

[ElNono]

No...

Just wait a few years to see if I'm right.

We don't have to wait that long, tbh. You'll never admit to being wrong and will nitpick at anything to contest you ever were. Too predictable, IMO.

[Wild Cobra]

We don't have to wait that long, tbh. You'll never admit to being wrong and will nitpick at anything to contest you ever were. Too predictable, IMO.
Please stop looking in the mirror when you type in this forum.

[ElNono]

Please stop looking in the mirror when you type in this forum.

I can quote myself admitting I was wrong.

In this forum.

Let me see you quoting yourself admitting you were talking out of your ass.

[ElNono]

Notice my statements on this particular topic are uninformed

Oh wait, I found it, nevermind :lol

[RandomGuy]

I can quote myself admitting I was wrong.

In this forum.

Let me see you quoting yourself admitting you were talking out of your ass.

Every once in a great while WC will own up to making a mistake. Not as often as they happen, but I do remember a few here and there.

To be fair:
More often he will dig in his heels, double down, and quibble over details, especially if it has to do with the ideas he is emotionally attached to.

[ElNono]

Nothing wrong with being wrong, tbh

[boutons_deux]

It seems like Europe and UCA, not Al Quaeda, have or will have Libya as their oil-producing colony:

The Untold Story in Libya: How the West Cooked Up the "People's Uprising"

http://images.alternet.org/images/managed/storyimages_1314998481_ab807.png_640x427_310x220


http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/152281

And Wikileaks shows CIA goons working with Kadafi's security goons.

[boutons_deux]

Exactly How Tight Were Libya and the CIA? New Documents Reveal Secret "War on Terror" Relationship

The papers suggest the CIA abducted several suspected militants from 2002 to 2004 and handed them to Tripoli.

The UK's MI6 also apparently gave the Gaddafi regime details of dissidents.[...]

Thousands of pieces of correspondence from US and UK officials were uncovered by reporters and activists in an office apparently used by Moussa Koussa, who served for years as Col Gaddafi's spy chief before becoming foreign minister.

Rights groups have long accused him of involvement in atrocities, and had called on the UK to arrest him at the time.

The BBC's Kevin Connolly in Tripoli says the documents illuminate a short period when the Libyan intelligence agency was a trusted and valued ally of both MI6 and the CIA, with the tone of exchanges between agents breezy and bordering on the chummy.

Human Rights Watch accused the CIA of condoning torture.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/661123/exactly_how_tight_were_libya_and_the_cia_new_docum ents_reveal_secret_%22war_on_terror%22_relationshi p/

[Winehole23]

Libya is in danger of falling into the hands of Islamic extremists if a stable government is not rapidly established, Nato’s secretary-general warned last night.

In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Islamic extremists would “try to exploit” any weaknesses created as the country tried to rebuild after four decades of Col Muammar Gaddafi’s rule.

Mr Rasmussen was speaking amid growing evidence of splits in the rebel leadership in Tripoli. His words will cast a damper over the euphoria sweeping Tripoli in the wake of the revolution.

His warning came as the head of the National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, told cheering crowds in Tripoli that Islamic shariah law would be the “main source” of legislation in the new Libya. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8758553/Libya-could-fall-into-hands-of-extremists-Nato-warns.html

[boutons_deux]

If the majority of Libyans want(vote) for sharia, so be it.

It's Their Country, and nobody else's business.

It's no different than if a majority of Americans wanted to vote in dominionist assholes, annul the Constitution, and install the Bible and 10 Commandments as law of the land.

[Winehole23]

It's their roll, they can piss on it or eat it. I posted the article to dampen the premature huzzahs over the glories of military intervention and voting.

[ChumpDumper]

Isn't sharia law the main source of legislation in every Muslim country?

[Winehole23]

Turkey and Egypt are exceptions. Your point?

[Winehole23]

I could care less whether the new regime is sharia based or not. I posted it more to counter the geniuses in this forum who were suggesting the conflict was over and the the humanitarian problems, solved. They are not, nor is the civil war over.

[ChumpDumper]

Turkey and Egypt are exceptions. Your point?What are their main sources of legislation?

Just curious.

[Winehole23]

Dunno. Do you?

[Winehole23]

Formally, both are secular regimes.

[ChumpDumper]

Dunno. Do you?You're the one claiming they are based mainly on something else, not me.

[Winehole23]

form/content distinction seems to be lost on you, but whatever

[Winehole23]

Isn't sharia law the main source of legislation in every Muslim country?Are you making a claim, or just guessing?

[ChumpDumper]

form/content distinction seems to be lost on you, but whateverI asked a very simple question. You couldn't answer it.

Happens all the time here.

No need to get snippy.

[ChumpDumper]

Are you making a claim, or just guessing?Again, I asked you a question.

[Winehole23]

I asked a very simple question. You couldn't answer it.You couldn't either. Happens all the time here.

[ChumpDumper]

You couldn't either. Happens all the time here.Again, you made a claim and couldn't really back it up.

Happens all the time here.

[Winehole23]

Again, I asked you a question.I answered you, you ignored mine.

[Winehole23]

Again, you made a claim and couldn't really back it up.

Happens all the time here.All I claimed was that Turkey and Egypt are formally secular regimes. You dispute that?

[ChumpDumper]

You couldn't either. Happens all the time here.I asked the question because I wanted to know the answer. You acted like you knew.

You didn't.

I apologize for thinking you might.

[Winehole23]

Turkey and Egypt don't have secular governments? That's news to me.

[ChumpDumper]

All I claimed was that Turkey and Egypt are formally secular regimes. You dispute that?You said they were exceptions in that they didn't mainly base their legislation on sharia law. Now, it's certainly a matter of degree, but I do believe that secular governments can and do base much of their legislation on religious law and tradition.

I asked you if their governments weren't based largely on sharia law, upon what were they based?

English common law?

Napoleonic code?

I don't think I'm being unreasonable in asking.

[ChumpDumper]

Turkey and Egypt don't have secular governments? That's news to me.Straw is not your best medium.

[Winehole23]

You said they were exceptions in that they didn't mainly base their legislation on sharia law. That's your interpolation, not what I said.

Now, it's certainly a matter of degree, but I do believe that secular governments can and do base much of their legislation on religious law and tradition.Form v content, as previously mentioned. The difference b/w secular and theocratic regimes is not trivial.

[Winehole23]

Straw is not your best medium.Whereas sophism suits you right down to the ground. :toast

[Wild Cobra]

Libya is in danger of falling into the hands of Islamic extremists if a stable government is not rapidly established, Nato’s secretary-general warned last night. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8758553/Libya-could-fall-into-hands-of-extremists-Nato-warns.html
I recall saying it would happen, because that's who the rebels are.

[Winehole23]

Straw is not your best medium.Oh, and thanks for making the thread all about me.

[Wild Cobra]

Oh, and thanks for making the thread all about me.
No....

He makes it about himself by finding any silly reason to confront someone.

[ChumpDumper]

That's your interpolation, not what I said.:lmao

You said they were exceptions to Muslim countries that base their legislation on sharia law.

Then you promptly said nothing at all.

Thanks again.

[ChumpDumper]

No....

He makes it about himself by finding any silly reason to confront someone.It was in no way a confrontation.

People get really defensive around here when questioned. Especially when they don't know the answers.

Happens all the time.

[ElNono]

I could care less whether the new regime is sharia based or not. I posted it more to counter the geniuses in this forum who were suggesting the conflict was over and the the humanitarian problems, solved. They are not, nor is the civil war over.

Like who?

[Winehole23]

:lmao

You said they were exceptions to Muslim countries that base their legislation on sharia law.

Then you promptly said nothing at all.Actually, I glossed what i meant by the comment. It turns on what "based on" means. I took that to mean "constitutional law" not "common law". Your refusal to hear or accept my reasonable gloss is asinine.

Thanks.

[Winehole23]

ChumpDumper has the better of me here:

h (http://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/laws/constitution/chp_one/part_one.aspx)ttp://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/laws/constitution/chp_one/part_one.aspx (http://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/laws/constitution/chp_one/part_one.aspx)

[Winehole23]

And I have the better of him here:

http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/tu00000_.html

[Winehole23]

So then, "all" Islamic countries do not embrace Islam as a source of common law, as ChumpDumper insinuated.

[Winehole23]

btw, nice derail.

[Winehole23]

back on topic:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/sep/13/nato-airstrikes-pound-pro-gadhafi-targets-libya/

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, I glossed what i meant by the comment. It turns on what "based on" means. I took that to mean "constitutional law" not "common law". Your refusal to hear or accept my reasonable gloss is asinine.

Thanks.


ChumpDumper has the better of me here:

h (http://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/laws/constitution/chp_one/part_one.aspx)ttp://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/laws/constitution/chp_one/part_one.aspx (http://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/laws/constitution/chp_one/part_one.aspx)


And I have the better of him here:

http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/tu00000_.html


So then, "all" Islamic countries do not embrace Islam as a source of common law, as ChumpDumper insinuated.


btw, nice derail.Your screen name is missing an h.

And I really wasn't talking about constitutional law.

[Winehole23]

Not contextually clear, but inferred. Your own gloss is just your gloss. Everyone else has his/her side. Refusing to hear all others is childish.

[ChumpDumper]

Not contextually clear, but inferred. Your own gloss is just your gloss. Everyone else has his/her side. Refusing to hear all others is childish.I heard your misunderstanding loud and clear, mainly because you wouldn't stop.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

hopefully there's not a statue of limitations on genocide <shrugs>



TRIPOLI, Libya — Gunmen loyal to Moammar Gadhafi have crossed the Libyan border from Algeria and attacked revolutionary forces in a town near the frontier, killing six people, officials said Sunday.
The cross-border attack on Saturday shows loyalist forces have managed to escape Libya and regroup and collect arms, bolstering fears the North African nation could face a protracted insurgency.
Fighters who took up arms against Gadhafi have seized Tripoli and have gained control of the rest of the country, but they are still battling forces loyal to the ousted regime on several fronts.
Libya officials also announced on Sunday the discovery of a mass grave believed to hold the remains of 1,270 inmates killed by Gadhafi's regime in a 1996 prison massacre. The site – a desert field scattered with bone fragments – was found outside the walls of Tripoli's Abu Salim prison, where the victims were killed on June 26, 1996, after protesting conditions at the facility. A demonstration by women demanding justice for the victims of that prison massacre was one of the things that touched off the uprising against Gadhafi in February.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/25/libya-mass-grave-tripoli-_n_979963.html

[vy65]

Is Qaddafi out of the picture or the war over?

oops

[Winehole23]

Given the reports of his leaving the country from earlier today, I would say that he is out of the picture.Oops indeed. August 22 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5385614&postcount=270). You called it a bit too early.

[Winehole23]

Good riddance to smelly garbage, but it's still too early for a touchdown dance.

[ElNono]

But, but... he was a benevolent dictator!! How could his people do this to him?

[MannyIsGod]

Good riddance to smelly garbage, but it's still too early for a touchdown dance.

The world where the ends justify the means. Getting him doesn't mean this wasn't a clusterfuck and a bad idea. How many failed future interventions will there be because of this "victory".

[Winehole23]

Victory? Is the civil war over in Libya?

[MannyIsGod]

quotes. QUOTES.

[Winehole23]

see em

[Winehole23]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097333,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

[Cant_Be_Faded]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097333,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

Call me sick but i think its kinda sad. Slowly but surely, all the dictators from that era are becoming extinct. Yeah they were cold blooded asses but they were our cold blooded asses. What comes next may not be so easily controlled and coerced.

[DMX7]

Obama 2 - WC 0

[Winehole23]

Call me sick but i think its kinda sad. Slowly but surely, all the dictators from that era are becoming extinct. Yeah they were cold blooded asses but they were our cold blooded asses. What comes next may not be so easily controlled and coerced.Matthew 12:43-45

[ElNono]

GpFNZQavP-g

[Winehole23]

unconfirmed

[Winehole23]

Will there be enough of Qaddafi left to confirm it?

[CosmicCowboy]

Will there be enough of Qaddafi left to confirm it?

Supposedly after they played soccer with him in the street they took the body to some mosque.

[Winehole23]

There's limit to everything, even abusing the corpse of a tyrant. Thx for the update, CC.

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097333,00.html?xid=rss-topstories
Makes sense. The conservative Muslims don't need a US friendly face any longer.

[RandomGuy]

Gaddafi's first time BBC interview (28/02/2011) since the crisis erupted in Libya. Gaddafi is never fond of speaking in English, but surprisingly, he retaliated to the BBC interviewer in English stresssing that Libyans would die to protect him. (Be patient to watch until he hits back in English!).

Seems he was right?


For U.S. intelligence services, the man who led the rebel assault on Tripoli, and is now the de facto military governor of the capital, is an old acquaintance. The CIA had tracked down the accused jihadist, and eventually captured him in Malaysia in 2003. The agency is believed to have then transferred him, in total silence, to a “top secret” prison in Bangkok.


However if the CIA wanted him, it’s first because he was one of the founders, and even the “emir” of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), a small highly radical organization, which prior to Sept. 11 had two secret training camps in Afghanistan. The CIA was extremely interested in one of them, Shahid Cheikh Abu Yahya, about 19 miles north of Kabul, where the LIFG welcomed volunteers who had links with Al Qaeda.

www.worldcrunch.com... (http://www.worldcrunch.com/top-libyan-rebel-leader-has-deep-al-qaeda-ties/3661)

The rebels that the UN/NATO backed are known as the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group. But they are also listed as terrorists by the UN.


LIFG was banned worldwide (as an affiliate of al-Qaeda) by the UN 1267 Committee.[2] Listed at the Foreign Terrorist Organizations.

www.un.org... (http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/NSQE1101E.shtml)


On October 10, 2005, the United Kingdom's Home Office banned LIFG and fourteen other militant groups from operating in the UK. Under the United Kingdom's Terrorism Act 2000, being a member of a LIFG is punishable with a 10-year prison term. The Financial Sanctions Unit of the Bank of England acting on behalf of HM Treasury issued the orders to freeze all their assets.

en.wikipedia.org... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Islamic_Fighting_Group)

The USA also lists LFIG under Forign Terrorists Groups, it is # 26 on this list.

www.state.gov... (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm)

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links


In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya". Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader

www.telegraph.co.uk... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html)

articles.cnn.com... (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-09-02/world/libya.belhaj.profile_1_national-transitional-council-bab-al-aziziya-compound-libyan-islamic-fighting-group?_s) =PM:WORLD



How can the west support a group

that is listed as Al-queda

affiliates and terrorists?


How is one evil for another helping the world?

Is this not aiding and embedding

Terrorist Organizations?

The underlying assumption that causes this whole line of reasoning to fail is that the islamists were the *only* force behind the uprising.

They weren't.

By any accounts on the ground that I have seen/read they were a vanishingly small part of the rebel fighters.

Given that the entire question you posed is based on a provably false assertion to begin with, it is rather moot, much like asking "Why is the West supporting militant unicorns?"

Since the question presuposes the existance of militant unicorns, it is moot as well. To be clear: Again, there were islamists in the movent to ouster Qadaffy, they just weren't the primary driving force, or even more than a very small contingent.

[RandomGuy]

If you really want to get to brass tacks, Qaddafi very likely approved, if not directly ordered at least one, if not more acts of outright terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

This is probably why he was scared shitless when we flattened Saddam. One of the better outcomes of that particular fuck up. Coupled with the deterioriation of his oil producing infrastructure, it very likely precipitated his move to normalize relations with the West.

[Wild Cobra]

If you really want to get to brass tacks, Qaddafi very likely approved, if not directly ordered at least one, if not more acts of outright terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

This is probably why he was scared shitless when we flattened Saddam. One of the better outcomes of that particular fuck up. Coupled with the deterioriation of his oil producing infrastructure, it very likely precipitated his move to normalize relations with the West.
There is still no solid evidence he did, and I believe he has always denied it. Our Iraqi invasion would scare anyone with a status we had for him, true or not.

I forget. What was the motive?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/15/newsid_3975000/3975455.stm

So WC was Reagan stupid like you too then?

[ChumpDumper]

There is still no solid evidence he did, and I believe he has always denied it.So you believe Gaddafi without question.

lol motive