112 Cruise missiles - What a mistake

[Wild Cobra]

So you believe Gaddafi without question.

lol motive
No, I don't take him at his word, but I don't see enough evidence against him either.

What was his motive? If he ordered it, for what reason?

[Wild Cobra]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/15/newsid_3975000/3975455.stm

So WC was Reagan stupid like you too then?
He may have had bad information. The attack was carried out from orders received in East Germany. The four people responsible were found guilty, but they could not find any evidence against Qaddafi except for the communication from Tripoli to East Germany, that may not have originated from Qaddafi.

[ChumpDumper]

No, I don't take him at his word, but I don't see enough evidence against him either.

What was his motive? If he ordered it, for what reason?Are you fucking kidding us?

Again?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He may have had bad information. The attack was carried out from orders received in East Germany. The four people responsible were found guilty, but they could not find any evidence against Qaddafi except for the communication from Tripoli to East Germany, that may not have originated from Qaddafi.

You apparently still do not understand confirmation bias.

You have no idea how pleased i am to see that the kids coming into college today are not as stupid and misguided as you are. People like you need to be pushed aside.

Theres hope for the future even if there is none for you.

[RandomGuy]

There is still no solid evidence he did, and I believe he has always denied it. Our Iraqi invasion would scare anyone with a status we had for him, true or not.

I forget. What was the motive?

You didn't read the wiki link, yet again. It is there.

If you had, you might have read the part where they had to own up to the act, as well as a couple of other bombings, to normalize relations, the successful lawsuits by the victims against the Libyan government, as well as that motive.

The evidence was more than sufficient for Reagan to smack 'em, and for courts to find against the Libyan government.

LOL taking the word of a mildly crazy dictator over US intelligence and that of a US president. I can't help but wonder if this isn't some attempt at trolling or if you really are that much of a dupe.

[RandomGuy]

He may have had bad information. The attack was carried out from orders received in East Germany. The four people responsible were found guilty, but they could not find any evidence against Qaddafi except for the communication from Tripoli to East Germany, that may not have originated from Qaddafi.

LOL thinking that intelligence officers from a police state would take a piss without orders from above.

[RandomGuy]

I'm surprised you missed this one, WC:

Libya to use Islamic law as source of legislation (http://news.yahoo.com/libya-islamic-law-source-legislation-210645264.html)
CAIRO (AP) — Libya's new leaders said they intend to make Islamic Sharia law the main source of legislation and will nullify any laws that contradict its tenets, giving the country a more Islamist character in the post-Moammar Gadhafi era.

A few other links with various takes on this:
http://www.euronews.net/2011/10/25/libya-ponders-sharia-law/
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-law-libya-end-missing-gadhafi-161200812.html
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/videos/new-look-libya-alarms-western-nations-with-talk-of-sharia-law-427148.html
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/23/calls-for-investigation-as-autopsy-reveals-qaddafi-died-from-gunshot-to-head/

The ultimate outcome of how rabidly islamist the government will be is in question, but from what I read, what is being pushed for is fairly mild, along the lines of reforming the banking system to disallow for interest, and allowing for men to marry more than one woman.

The moderates in the country, and ultimate government will be unlikely, in my judgment, to put anything too objectionable to the West in place, given the need to operate its oil infrastructure, tourism, and cooperation to free up state assets held in western banks.

[Wild Cobra]

You didn't read the wiki link, yet again. It is there.

If you had, you might have read the part where they had to own up to the act, as well as a couple of other bombings, to normalize relations, the successful lawsuits by the victims against the Libyan government, as well as that motive.

The evidence was more than sufficient for Reagan to smack 'em, and for courts to find against the Libyan government.

LOL taking the word of a mildly crazy dictator over US intelligence and that of a US president. I can't help but wonder if this isn't some attempt at trolling or if you really are that much of a dupe.
Even if the unproven assumptions were true, that was a long time ago. I never said Qaddafi was a good man. I have said he has mellowed over the years. Still no good reason to help in a civil war, where there are worse nations around the world is our stated goal was because of brutality, and i really don't get this helping conservative Muslim rebels.

I hope I'm wrong, but I am very certain things in Libya will now be worse than under Qaddafi.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm surprised you missed this one, WC:

Libya to use Islamic law as source of legislation (http://news.yahoo.com/libya-islamic-law-source-legislation-210645264.html)

A few other links with various takes on this:
http://www.euronews.net/2011/10/25/libya-ponders-sharia-law/
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-law-libya-end-missing-gadhafi-161200812.html
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/videos/new-look-libya-alarms-western-nations-with-talk-of-sharia-law-427148.html
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/23/calls-for-investigation-as-autopsy-reveals-qaddafi-died-from-gunshot-to-head/

The ultimate outcome of how rabidly islamist the government will be is in question, but from what I read, what is being pushed for is fairly mild, along the lines of reforming the banking system to disallow for interest, and allowing for men to marry more than one woman.

The moderates in the country, and ultimate government will be unlikely, in my judgment, to put anything too objectionable to the West in place, given the need to operate its oil infrastructure, tourism, and cooperation to free up state assets held in western banks.
Time will tell.

[ChumpDumper]

Even if the unproven assumptions were true, that was a long time ago. I never said Qaddafi was a good man. I have said he has mellowed over the years. Still no good reason to help in a civil war, where there are worse nations around the world is our stated goal was because of brutality, and i really don't get this helping conservative Muslim rebels.

I hope I'm wrong, but I am very certain things in Libya will now be worse than under Qaddafi.WC has a statute of limitations on murder.

He seems like a nice enough chap now. Let's fellate him with vigor.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Wild Chodebrah being so adamantly against attacking a ":cry sovereign country :cry" like Libya but at the same time adamantly defending the Iraq War is some of the most blatant hypocrisy I've ever seen.

[Winehole23]

When dictatorships are violently overthrown, their successor regimes tend to devolve into some form of authoritarian government. Political culture, weak institutions, and post-conflict disorder all make it unlikely that Libya will be that much freer in the years to come than it was under Gadhafi. As in Iraq, it is questionable whether the possible gains will be worth the real losses that have already been and will continue to be suffered. As in Kosovo, which is often wrongly held up as a model of "successful" intervention, the post-war regime is liable to be criminal and corrupt. Twenty years ago, the liberation of Eritrea and Ethiopia from the brutal dictatorship of Mengistu was an inspiring story that very soon degenerated into authoritarianism and war. There is no reason to think that Libya's story will be all that different.http://theweek.com/bullpen/column/220598/the-war-in-libya-is-still-a-failure

[RandomGuy]

Wild Chodebrah being so adamantly against attacking a ":cry sovereign country :cry" like Libya but at the same time adamantly defending the Iraq War is some of the most blatant hypocrisy I've ever seen.

Indeed. I'm surprised that his head hasn't exploded from sheer cognitive dissonance overload. :smchode:

[Winehole23]

Makes sense. The conservative Muslims don't need a US friendly face any longer.Jabril didn't quit -- Qaddafi was captured and killed the next day.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, is Gabriel a good man?

Mahmoud Jibril and Gaddafi’s Wealth Redistribution Project (http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/10/mahmoud-jibril-and-gaddafi%E2%80%99s-wealth-redistribution-project/); part of text:



Gaddafi’s Wealth Redistribution Project

Gaddafi had a wealth redistribution project inside Libya. U.S. Congressional sources in a report to the U.S. Congress even acknowledge this. On February 18, 2011 the report stated:

In March 2008, [Colonel Gaddafi] announced his intention to dissolve most government administrative bodies and institute a Wealth Distribution Program whereby state oil revenues would be distributed to citizens on a monthly basis for them to administer personally, in cooperation, and via local committees. Citing popular criticism of government performance in a long, wide ranging speech, [he] repeatedly stated that the traditional state would soon be “dead” in Libya and that direct rule by citizens would be accomplished through the distribution of oil revenues. [The military], foreign affairs, security, and oil production arrangements reportedly would remain national government responsibilities, while other bodies would be phased out. In early 2009, Libya’s Basic People’s Congresses considered variations of the proposals, and the General People’s Congress voted to delay implementation.

The Wealth Redistribution Project, along with the establishment of an anarchist political system, was viewed as a very serious threat by the U.S., the E.U., and a group of corrupt Libyan officials. If successful it could have created political unrest amongst many domestic populations around the world. Internally, many Libyan officials were working to delay the project.

Why Mahmoud Jibril Joined the Transitional Council

Amongst the Libyan officials who was opposed to this project and viewed it with horror was Mahmoud Jibril. Jibril was put into place by Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi. Because of strong influence and advice from the U.S. and the E.U., Saif Al-Islam selected Jibril to transform the Libyan economy and impose neo-liberal economic reforms.

Jibril would become the head of two bodies in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, the National Planning Council of Libya and National Economic Development Board of Libya. While the National Economic Development Board was a regular ministry, the National Planning Council would actually put Jibril in a government position above that of the equivalent of the prime minister–the Office of the General-Secretary of the People’s Committee of Libya. Jibril actually was one of the forces that opened the doors for privatization and poverty in Libya.

About six months before the conflict erupted in Libya, Mahmoud Jibiril actually met with Bernard-Henri Lévy in Australia to discuss forming the Transitional Council and deposing Gaddafi. He described Gaddafi’s Wealth Redistribution Project as “crazy” in minutes and documents from the National Economic Development Board of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. Jibril believed that the masses were not fit to govern themselves and that an elite should control the fate and wealth of any nation. What Jibril wanted to do is downsize the government and layoff a large segment of the public sector, but in exchange increase government regulations in Libya. He would also always cite Singapore as the perfect example of a neo-liberal state. While in Singapore, which he regularly visited, it is likely that he meet with Bernard-Henri Lévy.

I would argue that conservative Muslims already disliked Qaddafi's secular ways, and not only sharing the national oil wealth, but giving them more freedom, was blasphemy for which he had to die. I would also argue that if Qaddafi ever succeeded in unifying Africa, that would be a powerful force other nations would fear.

[ElNono]

Why would anybody give a shit?

[Wild Cobra]

Why would anybody give a shit?
Yes, a cilil war occurs that should have never started.

Why should anyone care.

Libya was a self sufficient country where the national resources were shared with the people rather just owned by the elite.

Why should anyone care.

Now, what becomes on Libya?

Why should anyone care.

The death toll of war will likely be 100,000+. Most of whom were people fighting for their cities as they were steamrolled over by the terrorist rebels.

Why should anyone care.

[ElNono]

Yes, a cilil war occurs that should have never started.

Why not? Ultimately, that wasn't our call. It started before the UN resolved the no-fly zone.

No troops on the ground, supporting our French and British allies under a UN resolution.

A lot less messy than Iraq, much quicker and now we don't have to deal with rebuilding.

Why are you mad? Nobody gave a shit about Lybia before this, nobody will give a shit after.

[ElNono]

Page 1:


I don't care what comes out of it. I really don't give two flying fucks about Lybia. However, I like the fact that the US is acting under the umbrella of a UN decision, much like Bush Sr did back in the Kuwait intervention and no-fly zone afterwards.

[Wild Cobra]

Why not? Ultimately, that wasn't our call. It started before the UN resolved the no-fly zone.

It would have never happened without help.


No troops on the ground, supporting our French and British allies under a UN resolution.

I will continue to say this was a mistake. The UN is not always right.


A lot less messy than Iraq, much quicker and now we don't have to deal with rebuilding.

Then why are they still asking for help?


Why are you mad? Nobody gave a shit about Lybia before this, nobody will give a shit after.

That's the problem You don't care about them. Only protecting your unruly UN, with the one world order in it's plans, which Qaddafi would have never complied with.

[ElNono]

wild chodebrah being so adamantly against attacking a ":cry sovereign country :cry" like libya but at the same time adamantly defending the iraq war is some of the most blatant hypocrisy i've ever seen.

+1000

[Wild Cobra]

I don't care what comes out of it. I really don't give two flying fucks about Lybia. However, I like the fact that the US is acting under the umbrella of a UN decision, much like Bush Sr did back in the Kuwait intervention and no-fly zone afterwards.
Yes, you want the USA to be subordinate to a one world order.

Fuck you.

[ElNono]

It would have never happened without help.

It started before we even went there. Fact.


I will continue to say this was a mistake. The UN is not always right.

I don't know if you get the hint yet, but your hypocrisy makes you completely non credible.


That's the problem You don't care about them. Only protecting your unruly UN, with the one world order in it's plans, which Qaddafi would have never complied with.

Please expand on the UN 'one world order' and 'it's plans' conspiracy... crofl

[ElNono]

Yes, you want the USA to be subordinate to a one world order.

Fuck you.

Fuck off you partisan hack... when Bush Sr complied with the no-fly zone UN resolution on Iraq you were the #1 fan of the UN.

Hypocrite

[Wild Cobra]

Fuck off you partisan hack... when Bush Sr complied with the no-fly zone UN resolution on Iraq you were the #1 fan of the UN.

Hypocrite
That was a different scenario entirely.

I am not being hypocritical.

What threat was Qaddafi to anyone outside his border? How many years ago was the last time he attacked a neighboring nation? When was the last time he had UN resolutions controlling his actions that he violated for years?

[ElNono]

That was a different scenario entirely.

No it wasn't. It was an UN resolution authorizing a no-fly zone.

Hypocrite

[Wild Cobra]

No it wasn't. It was an UN resolution authorizing a no-fly zone.

Hypocrite
Days rather than years. Right?

Please don't forget, that first aircraft shot down and claimed to be Qaddafi's was a repel Mirage.

You were duped into thinking he violated the no fly, when the rebels probably staged it.

[ElNono]

Please expand on the UN "one world order" conspiracy... I'm waiting...

lol nutjob AND hypocrite

[ElNono]

Days rather than years. Right?

It was a UN resolution authorizing a no-fly zone, yes or no?

Hypocrite

[ElNono]

Now Lybians will go and do whatever the fuck they want with their country, as they should, and we'll go back to not giving a shit.

[Wild Cobra]

Please expand on the UN "one world order" conspiracy... I'm waiting...

lol nutjob AND hypocrite
What you say leads to it. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry you made yourself look like you support it.

[Wild Cobra]

It was a UN resolution authorizing a no-fly zone, yes or no?

Hypocrite
LOL...

Did he even know on the first day it was in effect?

Why in hell was such a thing voted on when he didn't attack civilians by air?

[Wild Cobra]

Now Lybians will go and do whatever the fuck they want with their country, as they should, and we'll go back to not giving a shit.
And when the rebels continue the atrocities they have been inflicting, do you advocate we overthrow them as well?

When does it end?

If Libya is the line we draw in the sand, then why haven't we started with the 50+ nations that are worse?

[ElNono]

LOL...

Why in hell was such a thing voted on when he didn't attack civilians by air?

March 9:

Libyan government aircraft Tuesday launched at least five airstrikes on Ras Lanuf, and hospital officials said at least 20 people were injured. That brought the toll in the fighting here since Sunday to 10 dead and about 75 wounded.

lol hypocrite doesn't even know why a no-fly zone was enacted. For having an opinion you're such a hack.

Go back to cheerleading, you suck at this.

[ElNono]

And when the rebels continue the atrocities they have been inflicting, do you advocate we overthrow them as well?

"We" didn't overthrow anybody.

Hack

[ElNono]

Please expand on the UN "one world order" conspiracy... I'm waiting...

lol nutjob AND hypocrite

[Wild Cobra]

March 9:

Libyan government aircraft Tuesday launched at least five airstrikes on Ras Lanuf, and hospital officials said at least 20 people were injured. That brought the toll in the fighting here since Sunday to 10 dead and about 75 wounded.

lol hypocrite doesn't even know why a no-fly zone was enacted. For having an opinion you're such a hack.

Go back to cheerleading, you suck at this.
Rebels took that city five days earlier. The rebels were targeted. Not civilians. The war was already declared, and the UN imposed rules of war that didn't exist prior?

Fuck that. The first aircraft shot down after the no fly zone was implement was a rebel aircraft. If I'm wrong, show me.

I may be wrong about when the no fly zone was implemented, but once war has started, who expects such a thing to be honored?

Like I said early on. Without the UN and NATO help, this war would have been over soon after it started, and there would have only been a few deaths.

Now riddle me this.

Qaddafi declared a cease fire when the No Fly zone was implemented. The next day, we hit him with 112 cruise missiles.

Who in their right mind does that? He declares a cease fire, and we still attack?

You need to get your morals strait.

[Wild Cobra]

"We" didn't overthrow anybody.

Hack

It likely would have never happened without our cruise missiles attacking.

[ElNono]

Rebels took that city five days earlier. The rebels were targeted. Not civilians.

lol changing the tune... did only rebels live in the city?

Hypocrite

and you didn't even know why the UN called a no-fly zone :lmao

[ElNono]

It likely would have never happened without our cruise missiles attacking.

Don't change the subject. "We" didn't overthrow anybody.

[Wild Cobra]

March 9:

Libyan government aircraft Tuesday launched at least five airstrikes on Ras Lanuf, and hospital officials said at least 20 people were injured. That brought the toll in the fighting here since Sunday to 10 dead and about 75 wounded.

lol hypocrite doesn't even know why a no-fly zone was enacted. For having an opinion you're such a hack.

Go back to cheerleading, you suck at this.
Libyan rebels take oil town of Ras Lanuf- rebels (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/04/libya-port-idUSLDE72320420110304); Fri Mar 4, 2011 2:08pm EST

The airstrikes by Qaddifi increased the injured by 20, and none killed by your links account. How many were injured and killed were from the rebels taking the city?

[Wild Cobra]

Libya: ceasefire declared in wake of UN resolution (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390550/Libya-ceasefire-declared-in-wake-of-UN-resolution.html)

The next day, the rebel aircraft was shot down by rebels, and we launch our cruise missiles.

Isn't it obvious that this was likely staged, and the UN was duped to help the rebels?

[ElNono]

Libyan rebels take oil town of Ras Lanuf- rebels (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/04/libya-port-idUSLDE72320420110304); Fri Mar 4, 2011 2:08pm EST

The airstrikes by Qaddifi increased the injured by 20, and none killed by your links account.

BTW, here's the link:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/09/world/la-fg-libya-ras-lanuf-20110309

What part of '10 dead' is 'none killed'?

Hypocrite

[ElNono]

Libya: ceasefire declared in wake of UN resolution (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390550/Libya-ceasefire-declared-in-wake-of-UN-resolution.html)

NATO, Libyan rebels reject Gaddafi's truce (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-05/01/c_13853421.htm)

One side can't declare shit.

Hypocrite

[Wild Cobra]

NATO, Libyan rebels reject Gaddafi's truce (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-05/01/c_13853421.htm)

One side can't declare shit.

Hypocrite
I see...

The aggressor of war is favored.

Again, what did Qaddafi do to deserve this?

He shared the oil revenue with the people.

He took one of the poorest world nations and made it one with a high HDI, and self sufficient.

He treated criminals harsh, like nearly all other Arab nations do.

Was that enough to overthrow him? Just because he killed rebels posing as civilians?

[ElNono]

...a family of six hit Monday by an airstrike in Ras Lanuf died in the attack...

I bet you all six were rebels, and if they were alive they would be part of OWC!!

/WC

[ElNono]

I see...

The aggressor of war is favored.

Again, what did Qaddafi do to deserve this?

He bombed civilians. That little thing you had no clue about :lmao

You're such a cheerleader and a hack.

When are we going to hear your take on the UN "one world order" conspiracy?

[ElNono]

Whatever Qaddafi did the rebels didn't like, and that's the bottom line.

We're not the rebels and we didn't overthrow him, his people did.

I don't give two shits who the rebels are and who they respond to.

[Wild Cobra]

...a family of six hit Monday by an airstrike in Ras Lanuf died in the attack...

I bet you all six were rebels, and if they were alive they would be part of OWC!!

/WC
I see.

Was that family targeted, or were they casualties of a war started by rebels?

Is Qaddafi suppose to just surrender so nobody gets hurt?

[Wild Cobra]

Whatever Qaddafi did the rebels didn't like, and that's the bottom line.

We're not the rebels and we didn't overthrow him, his people did.

I don't give two shits who the rebels are and who they respond to.

LOL...

They hate Qaddafi because they don't see him as a true Muslim!

My understanding is most the people loved Qaddafi. Where is the information that most didn't like him? Link please.

Libya had the highest HDI of any African nation, and probably more than any other Arab nation. How could most the people want him out?

Again... Link please.

[ElNono]

I see.


About time, tbh

[ElNono]

LOL...

They hate Qaddfi because they don't see him as a true Muslim!

Which takes us back to the start: Nobody gives a shit.

[Wild Cobra]

Which takes us back to the start: Nobody gives a shit.
Apparently you do, that is that love conservative Muslims.

What did you say your religion is?

[ElNono]

Apparently yo love conservative Muslims.

Apparently you suck at English. What part of "don't give a shit" you don't understand?

BTW, still waiting for the UN "one world order" conspiracy details... that should make for a good laugh... :lmao

[ElNono]

:lol @ at this hypocrite defending a dictator... apparently fucking authoritarians need to watch their backs

[Wild Cobra]

BTW, still waiting for the UN "one world order" conspiracy details... that should make for a good laugh... :lmao
Look back. I answered you.

[ElNono]

Look back. I answered you.

The UN conspiracy theory? Where is it?

And stop editing your posts after you got creamed, it makes it MORE obvious you don't know WTF you're talking about.

[ElNono]

Apparently, the Lybian people thought Qadaffi should die a painful death and reclaim their country...

Apparently, they also didn't give a shit about HDI...

Again, nobody cares. But it's good you finally recognize "we" didn't overthrow anybody. Simply installed a no-fly zone with our allies under UN auspices. Progress. :tu

[Wild Cobra]

The UN conspiracy theory? Where is it?

And stop editing your posts after you got creamed, it makes it MORE obvious you don't know WTF you're talking about.
#532 is my response.

I don't know what the conspiracy is, ask Mouse.

[ElNono]

Did we overthrow Qaddafi? Link?

[Wild Cobra]

Apparently, the Lybian people thought Qadaffi should die a painful death and reclaim their country...

Apparently, they also didn't give a shit about HDI...

Again, nobody cares. But it's good you finally recognize "we" didn't overthrow anybody. Simply installed a no-fly zone with our allies under UN auspices. Progress. :tu
Well, like have said before. I hope I'm wrong on this issue with Libya. However, I believe the future look at this history will prove I was right.

Can you say the same?

[ElNono]

What you say leads to it. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry you made yourself look like you support it.

This is the conspiracy? Please explain what the conspiracy consists of.

I never claimed any conspiracy or "one world order". Did you support the UN when Bush Sr supported it?

Weren't you defending the Iraq invasion under some UN resolutions?
You need to pick a lane and stick with it, tbh

Hypocrite

[Wild Cobra]

Did we overthrow Qaddafi? Link?
We aided. We are co-conspirators in a criminal action against another nation. The only thing that made it legal was the UN said so.

I guess when you played role playing games like AD&D, your characters were lawful evil.

That's what happened. A lawful evil act.

[ElNono]

Well, like have said before. I hope I'm wrong on this issue with Libya.

Nobody cares what comes out of that shithole. It was a shithole before we assisted and the question is whether it's going to remain a shithole or not, which frankly, nobody could care less either way.

What's important is that we fullfilled our role, no boots on the ground, and we don't have to deal with another money pit or commitment of troops and the like. That's all that matters.

[ElNono]

We aided.

Did we overthrow Qaddafi, yes or no? Link?

[ElNono]

I guess when you played role playing games like AD&D, your characters were lawful evil.

You should stick with AD&D... or ADD... and step away from the real world.

[Wild Cobra]

Nobody cares what comes out of that shithole. It was a shithole before we assisted and the question is whether it's going to remain a shithole or not, which frankly, nobody could care less either way.

What's important is that we fullfilled our role, no boots on the ground, and we don't have to deal with another money pit or commitment of troops and the like. That's all that matters.
You are dead wrong. I think I'm done with your sorry ass for the evening.

Consider this.

Libya was self sufficient.

Rated High on the HDI.

Created what is known as the 8th wonder.

I wouldn't call it a shithole, you shithead.

[ElNono]

You are dead wrong. I think I'm done with your sorry ass for the evening.

Says who? You? :lmao

:lol UN conspiracy
:lol one world order
:lol hypocrite
:lol AD&D
:lol lawful evil
:lol partisan hack
:lol mad that Barry pulled it off

[ElNono]

I mean, you could bring the legitimate gripe of Congress authorization (or lack of).

But you're a plain hack and a hypocrite.

[ElNono]

Page 10:


The US is following a UN mandate. What the 'rebels' do with their country is their business.

[ChumpDumper]

Again, what did Qaddafi do to deserve this?:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:ro llin

[Agloco]

Again, what did Qaddafi do to deserve this?


And you wonder why you're ridiculed. smh.

[DMX7]

WC would defend Adolf Hitler before giving Obama any credit for anything.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

WC is just sophistry meeting stupidity. Its why he defends Khadafi despite his idol of Reagan's stance. Its why he makes claims of spectroscopes 'looking' at locations other than where they actually are. its why he does not understand the properties of flywheels or capacitors yet makes claims anyway. its why he thinks particles from the sun entering our atmosphere spontaneously combust.

Hes is one of the stupidest people that is not in some way brain damaged that any of us will ever have to talk with. When you are talking with him just keep that in mind.

When he tries spewing shit like he does do not bother getting mired in a discussion of shit he obviously doesn't understand. His job is to change out parts in the same machines hes worked on for years. As I demonstrated in the wind power thread, he does not even understand the properties of the things that he works on every day. One cannot reasonably expect him to get concepts that are more difficult or that he is less familiar with.

Instead just point out his stupidity.

[Wild Cobra]

And you wonder why you're ridiculed. smh.

20 years ago would be different. I have said, he has mellowed with age.

[Wild Cobra]

WC would defend Adolf Hitler before giving Obama any credit for anything.
Only to the point that Hitler has done good for Germany and Obama has probably hurt America more than Hitler has.

[ChumpDumper]

Libya's Prime Minister Confirms Presence of Chemical Weapons

Published October 30, 2011

TRIPOLI, Libya – Libya's interim prime minister has confirmed the presence of chemical weapons in Libya and says foreign inspectors would arrive later this week to deal with the issue.

Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril said Sunday that Libya has no interest in keeping such weapons.

Last week, Ian Martin, the top U.N. envoy to Libya, told the U.N. Security Council that undeclared chemical weapons sites have been located in Libya.

Jibril did not provide any details about the chemical weapons.

In August, Fox News interviewed Rep. Mike Rogers, R.-Mich., who said he saw a chemical weapon stockpile in the country during a 2004 trip. At the time, he said the U.S. was concerned about "thousands of pounds of very active mustard gas."

He also said there is some sarin gas that is unaccounted for....

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/30/libyas-prime-minister-confirms-presence-chemical-weapons/#ixzz1cOmzKWlB

I guess the thousands of pounds of mustard and nerve gas were mellowing with age as well.

[Drachen]

Libya's Prime Minister Confirms Presence of Chemical Weapons

Published October 30, 2011

TRIPOLI, Libya – Libya's interim prime minister has confirmed the presence of chemical weapons in Libya and says foreign inspectors would arrive later this week to deal with the issue.

Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril said Sunday that Libya has no interest in keeping such weapons.

Last week, Ian Martin, the top U.N. envoy to Libya, told the U.N. Security Council that undeclared chemical weapons sites have been located in Libya.

Jibril did not provide any details about the chemical weapons.

In August, Fox News interviewed Rep. Mike Rogers, R.-Mich., who said he saw a chemical weapon stockpile in the country during a 2004 trip. At the time, he said the U.S. was concerned about "thousands of pounds of very active mustard gas."

He also said there is some sarin gas that is unaccounted for....

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/30/libyas-prime-minister-confirms-presence-chemical-weapons/#ixzz1cOmzKWlB

I guess the thousands of pounds of mustard and nerve gas were mellowing with age as well.

Yeah, but they must have been working out... The article says that they were very active.

[scott]

Hitler has done good for Germany

[ElNono]

Hitler has done good for Germany

[Winehole23]

...and Obama has hurt America worse than Hitler.

[LnGrrrR]

Only to the point that Hitler has done good for Germany and Obama has probably hurt America more than Hitler has.

"Only"

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[LnGrrrR]

"That Antichrist guy, sure, he was bad, but he did bring about the whole 2nd coming, so in that case he's done much more than Obama has..."

"The thing you have to remember about Stalin is that he at least believed in a strong and active military..."

"What has Obama done for the world that, say, The French Terror hasnt?"


/future WC quotes

[Winehole23]

Read this line from Kori Schake (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/12/25/nato-after-libya-why-the-alliance-is-worth-saving.html), and reflect on how completely NATO’s purpose has been perverted:

The big risk is not whether the alliance can win whatever wars it chooses to fight. It can. The risk is that NATO will choose not to fight, that its members will withdraw into their own narrowly defined interests, close to home.
Yes, the worst thing that a defensive security alliance can do is to be focused on narrowly defined interests too close to home! It went without saying that Libya had nothing to do with NATO, but America, Britain, and France chose to fight there anyway, and NATO was dragged along for the ride so that the alliance did not have to split over the issue. NATO should obviously never be waging wars of choice. Its sole reason for being is to provide for collective defense against attack. If any alliance member starts a war, the others are in no way obliged by treaty to support them. Unfortunately, members of the alliance uninterested in starting unnecessary wars do feel political pressure to provide cover for the more aggressive members, so wars of choice that do not involve any allied security interests still receive the backing of the entire alliance. What Schake is describing is the “risk” that NATO will operate according to its original purpose as a defensive alliance. Unless one believes that NATO should be used as a platform for starting new wars, this is something to be hoped for rather than avoided.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2011/12/26/nato-should-never-be-waging-wars-of-choice/

[RandomGuy]

Only to the point that Hitler has done good for Germany and Obama has probably hurt America more than Hitler has.

cp069Y_P-9M

I think Fox "news" and talk radio has done more to hurt America than anything Obama has done.

That and the redistricting done that concentrates voters of one stripe or another into monochromatic districts that don't allow for moderates to be elected.

Lastly,


Hitler has done good for Germany

That may be the single most monumentally stupid thing you have ever said. I know you are trying to troll people you don't agree with, but... seriously?

(shakes head)

[Wild Cobra]

That may be the single most monumentally stupid thing you have ever said. I know you are trying to troll people you don't agree with, but... seriously?

(shakes head)
Before he became a madman, he did did some pretty fine leadership.

Take the point how you want. If he hadn't started a program of genocide, I'll bet history would see him far different.

[boutons_deux]

"If he hadn't started a program of genocide,"

If he hadn't invaded just about everywhere, Germany wouldn't have got its butt kicked from all sides.

goddam, you're one contrarian ideologue, so in love with your own bizarre takes.

[ChumpDumper]

Before he became a madman, he did did some pretty fine leadership.

Take the point how you want. If he hadn't started a program of genocide, I'll bet history would see him far different.He was a madman ever since he got rejected from art school.

lol fine leadership

[RandomGuy]

Before he became a madman, he did did some pretty fine leadership.

Take the point how you want. If he hadn't started a program of genocide, I'll bet history would see him far different.

He was a crank, and a violent one. Even if he hadn't been responsible in one way or another for 20M-30M deaths (holocaust+ Russian casualties), he would have been reviled as a disgusting human being.

Read Mein Kampf and tell me otherwise.

[ElNono]

He was a fine leader!

[TheSullyMonster]

Well, he DID pull Germany out of a depression.

Of course, he also got his country split in half and both of those halves utterly destroyed beforehand.

But you know, whatever.

[Wild Cobra]

If he didn't do such a fine job making the Autobahns a reality, our tanks would have taken longer to get his soldiers!

[Winehole23]

“I fear this looks like a civil war”, one Libyan rebel commander from Misrata told (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/01/03/world/middleeast/AP-ML-Libya.html?smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto) the Associated Press, in the wake of a fierce firefight between rival militia factions using heavy weapons in broad daylight in Tripoli on Tuesday. Four fighters were reportedly killed and five wounded in the clash ignited by the attempts of a Misrata-based militia to free a comrade detained by the Tripoli Military Council on suspicion of theft. But such clashes have become increasingly common in the Libyan capital over the past two months, as rival militias stake out turf in the power vacuum caused by the collapse of the Gaddafi regime. And while leaders on both sides of Tuesday’s clash were eventually able to broker a cease-fire, the deep fissures of tribe, region, ideology and sometimes even neighborhood that divide rival armed groups persist —and there’s no sign yet of the emergence of a central political authority with the military muscle to enforce its writ.

Read more: http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2012/01/04/in-post-gaddafi-libya-freedom-is-messy-and-getting-messier/#ixzz1iW1NIxAV

[Winehole23]

Libya's post-war transitional government confronted a political crisis Sunday after protesters ransacked its offices in Benghazi, highlighting growing nationwide unease with its leadership and triggering a shakeup in which the government's deputy chief resigned and several members were suspended.

Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Protests-shake-Libya-s-interim-government-2674299.php#ixzz1kI6K18J8

[Wild Cobra]

Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Protests-shake-Libya-s-interim-government-2674299.php#ixzz1kI6K18J8

So they replace one not so good regime with another. Who thought things would be better anyway? I'll still lay odds they will be worse off than they were.

[Winehole23]

BENGHAZI, Libya (AP) – Moammar Gadhafi (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Moammar+Gadhafi) loyalists have seized control of a Libyan town and raised the ousted regime's green flag, an official and commander said Tuesday.




The retaking of Bani Walid comes as Libya's new leaders have struggled to unify the oil-rich North African (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/North+African) nation three months after Gadhafi was captured and killed.


Hundreds of well-equipped and highly trained remnants of Gadhafi's forces raised the green flag over buildings in the western city late Monday after hours of clashes, said Mubarak al-Fatamni, the head of Bani Walid local council.http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-01-24/libya-gadhafi-loyalists/52765322/1

[Winehole23]

Doctors Without Borders is halting its work in detention centers in the Libyan city of Misrata because detainees are "tortured and denied urgent medical care," the international aid agency said Thursday.

The agency, known by its French acronym MSF, said it has treated 115 people with torture-related wounds from interrogation sessions.


Some of the patients treated were tortured again after they were returned to detention centers, according to the agency.


"Some officials have sought to exploit and obstruct MSF's medical work," said Christopher Stokes, the agency's general director.


"Patients were brought to us for medical care between interrogation sessions, so that they would be fit for further interrogation. This is unacceptable. Our role is to provide medical care to war casualties and sick detainees, not to repeatedly treat the same patients between torture sessions."
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/26/world/africa/libya-msf-torture/

[Wild Cobra]

But... But... But...

Things were going to be better after Qaddafi was out...

[Winehole23]

When the West invokes human rights concerns to justify an attack on a dictator whom it has long tolerated (and often even supported), that is rather compelling evidence that human rights is the packaging for the war, not the goal. The fact that it is not the goal means more than just another war sold deceitfully based on pretexts: it means that human rights concerns will not drive what happens after the invasion is completed. http://www.salon.com/2012/01/26/the_human_rights_success_in_libya/singleton/

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That quote is long on innuendo and broad generalization and short on substance. I am not saying that the intervention was good or anything but i got absolutely nothing from that quote and it made me think the rest of the article was the same lack of substantive things that actually were facts so I did not bother to read it.

[ChumpDumper]

But... But... But...

Things were going to be better after Saddam was out...

[Winehole23]

That quote is long on innuendo and broad generalization and short on substance. I am not saying that the intervention was good or anything but i got absolutely nothing from that quote and it made me think the rest of the article was the same lack of substantive things that actually were facts so I did not bother to read it.that's WC's line

[Winehole23]

lol excuses not to read

[Winehole23]

Amnesty International has issued (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Libya-militias-out-of-control-Amnesty/articleshow/11912666.cms) a report on the great humanitarian success that is post-Gaddafi Libya:
Amnesty International on Thursday said armed militias in Libya commit widespread human rights abuses, creating instability and obstructing efforts to rebuild the country.


“Armed militias operating across Libya commit widespread human rights abuses with impunity, fuelling insecurity and hindering the rebuilding of state institutions,” Amnesty warned in a new report.
The report, released a year after the start of the February 2011 revolt that toppled Muammar Gaddafi’s regime, documents “serious abuses, including war crimes, against suspected Gaddafi loyalists, with cases of people being unlawfully detained and tortured — sometimes to death,” it said.


“Militias in Libya are largely out of control and the blanket impunity they enjoy only encourages further abuses and perpetuates instability and insecurity,” said Donatella Rovera, senior adviser at Amnesty International.
This is the kind of thing that happens when a dictatorship in a country with very weak institutions collapses as a result of war. None of this should come as a surprise to anyone. The reprisals that were already happening during the fighting last year have continued, and they seem to be getting worse. Militias in Libya have become a law unto themselves, and there doesn’t appear to be that much interest (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17045265) in creating a democratic government. Perhaps next time we in the West should not be so eager to help turn a dictatorship into a failed state.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2012/02/16/aftermath-of-the-libyan-war-v/

[Winehole23]

then again, maybe that was the whole point

[Winehole23]

Originally Posted by FuzzyLumpkins http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/Style_Templates/Flashskin/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5067728#post5067728)

Complaining about death in war is like complaining about sex at an orgy. /threadWrong. The complaining hasn't stopped yet. Neither has the violence, misery and oppression that war unleashes.

[Winehole23]

shaping up to be a new civil war, tbh

[Winehole23]

Solution: more enlightened war.

[Winehole23]

Originally Posted by coyotes_geek http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/Style_Templates/Flashskin/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5071542#post5071542)


+1

We need to get out of the "spreading democracy" business.
Exactly. Same shit different day.*Mega Dittos*

[ElNono]

then again, maybe that was the whole point

Stirring the pot doesn't guarantee success. It just provides progress (for good or bad). I've no problem with that as long as we're not putting foots on the ground.

[Winehole23]

It just provides progress (for good or bad). I've no problem with that...for good and for ill. your complacency about the ills for Libyans is duly noted.

besides ditching Qaddafi, what's the good part, in your opinion?

[Winehole23]

and what progress has there been, post-Qaddafi?

[ElNono]

for good and for ill. your complacency about the ills for Libyans is duly noted.

besides ditching Qaddafi, what's the good part, in your opinion?

The good part is Lybians making out of Lybia what they want. Shithole or not, it's entirely up to them.


and what progress has there been, post-Qaddafi?

Doing away with the status-quo was progress, for good or bad. That's all I said.

[Winehole23]

The good part is Lybians making out of Lybia what they want. Shithole or not, it's entirely up to them.Nope. It's mostly up to gangbanging militias, now.

Doing away with the status-quo was progress, for good or bad. That's all I said.And I asked, what post-Qaddafi progress has there been? Anything?

[ElNono]

Nope. It's mostly up to gangbanging militias, now.

Lybian gangbanging militias?


And I asked, what post-Qaddafi progress has there been? Anything?

I don't know. I haven't kept track since it's not been our problem.

[Winehole23]

Lybian gangbanging militias?I'm sorry, thought you were referring to ordinary citizens. My bad.


I don't know. I haven't kept track since it's not been our problem.I see. Failed states we essentially created by intervention, such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, are no longer our problem now that US forces have been withdrawn, or are about to be. I guess moral responsibility stops at the water's edge once the war is declared over.

[ElNono]

I see. Failed states we essentially created by intervention, such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, are no longer our problem now that US forces have been withdrawn, or are about to be. I guess moral responsibility stops at the water's edge once the war is declared over.

The difference is that we tried to (and mostly failed) doing nation building and "democracy spreading", in Iraq and Afghanistan, militarily (while obviously footing the bill).

Humanitarian aid to Lybia hasn't ceased or won't cease anytime soon. The Lybians have been capable enough (with a little help) to overthrow the dictator they despised so much. They should be able (and will likely get the help if they need it and request it) to deal with the obvious chaotic power grab that normally follows any civilian revolution.

Ultimately, if their choice is to remain tribal and keep their place a shithole (much like Iraq or Afghanistan), it's their choice. They're now free and sovereign to do what they choose to do.

[Winehole23]

which is totally proper, the end of a war signifies the end of direct, forceful intervention. but the light shed thereby on the epigones of moral responsibility (as expressed through force, naturally) -- is not kind to the ideal, or the propounders

[Winehole23]

lacks some sticktoit-iveness

[Winehole23]

realpolitik eats political ideals for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

[Winehole23]

Ultimately, if their choice is to remain tribal and keep their place a shithole (much like Iraq or Afghanistan), it's their choice. They're now free and sovereign to do what they choose to do.I see the give it time bid and think it's totally valid, time will tell, democracy is larval at best in Libya. I assume the NTC is the sovereign you are referring to. Would that be wrong?

As for "being free now" I am troubled by Libya quality of freedom issues highlighted in this thread, for example. Have you followed the links?

[ElNono]

which is totally proper, the end of a war signifies the end of direct, forceful intervention. but the light shed thereby on the epigones of moral responsibility (as expressed through force, naturally) -- is not kind to the ideal, or the propounders

Sure. Ideally, everyone would've dropped their guns, hugged, and moved on to piece together the best possible country. Didn't pan out that way (yet anyways), and so be it. I'm actually glad they're figuring out this stuff on their own. Maybe they're perfectly happy to live under some sort of tribal control. Maybe they don't know better. Let them figure it out.

[ElNono]

I see the give it time bid and think it's totally valid, time will tell, democracy is larval at best in Libya. I assume the NTC is the sovereign you are referring to. Would that be wrong?

I'm referring to them being sovereign in the sense that they're not given a "packaged" government template, and forcing them to use it (much like we did in Iraq or Afghanistan).


As for "being free now" I am troubled by Libya quality of freedom issues highlighted in this thread, for example. Have you followed the links?

There will be ups and downs. There always have been when there's such a power vacuum. But they're also now aware the power they hold as a united group, and I'm sure those filling in those positions of power have that present too.

I speak in the abstract mostly because I have not been following much on it. I think this is going to be a long process for them and that's mostly why I haven't followed the minutiae...

[Winehole23]

Absolutely. I was just pointing out that our widely respected and feared moral concerns about the misdeeds (or foreseeably imminent misdeeds) of others, seems to run hot and cold.

[cheguevara]

Sadly the poor people that can only watch american media believe everything they are told. That is why they believe the Lybian people were "clamoring" for Ghadafi to step down.

poor are the souls that eat everything the Main Stream Media feeds them

Let me break it to you, most Lybian people did not want Ghadafi gone:
Rebel admits that most people supported Gaddafi LIBYA ON WAR
atEuVHR02a8

has Iraq not taught you poor peple anything?

[cheguevara]

Now the main stream media is calling the rebels in Syria, many of them who are Al Qaeda, they call them "freedom fighters" And the american public actually eats that up as well :lol

[ElNono]

It's the media's fault!

[cheguevara]

^ exhibit A

[ElNono]

If Syrians wanted Ghadafi so much, they would've fought for him...

This is akin to saying Ron Paul can't round enough votes because of the media...

[cheguevara]

If Syrians wanted Ghadafi so much, they would've fought for him...

This is akin to saying Ron Paul can't round enough votes because of the media...

You mean Lybians.

Is that so? Will you fight and die to keep Obama in office if there is a rebellion and a Nato bombing?

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Now the main stream media is calling the rebels in Syria, many of them who are Al Qaeda, they call them "freedom fighters" And the american public actually eats that up as well :lolHow many of them are Al Qaeda?

[cheguevara]

Does the exact number matter?

[Wild Cobra]

Libya was stable before the UN and US got in bet with the rebels.

I called in from the start...

[ChumpDumper]

Does the exact number matter?Yes.

[ElNono]

You mean Lybians.

Yes


Is that so? Will you fight and die to keep Obama in office if there is a rebellion and a Nato bombing?

People didn't fought here during the Civil War?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Does the exact number matter?

All it shows is that you have no idea about the socioeconomic situation in the middle east and the underlying cause of what has been dubbed the 'arab spring.'

there is a huge dispossessed population of men under 30 in the middle east that migrate from conflict to conflict. Beyond nomadic warfare of this nature being a millenium old tradition in the middle east, trying to pigeonhole their politics into 'AlQaeda' to try and paint them as antiwestern is at best naive.

Antiwestern is just a matter of degree over there.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/6/arab-and-muslim-perceptions-of-the-united-states

[cheguevara]

Yes



People didn't fought here during the Civil War?

Funny, I didn't know NATO picked a side in the civil war and bombed the shit out of the other.

That' the whole point why NATO bombed Libya, cause the rebels had no chance.

now their excuse was cause civilians were gonna get slaughtered. After knowing what we know, I'm not so sure they were telling the truth.

[cheguevara]

All it shows is that you have no idea about the socioeconomic situation in the middle east and the underlying cause of what has been dubbed the 'arab spring.'

there is a huge dispossessed population of men under 30 in the middle east that migrate from conflict to conflict. Beyond nomadic warfare of this nature being a millenium old tradition in the middle east, trying to pigeonhole their politics into 'AlQaeda' to try and paint them as antiwestern is at best naive.

Antiwestern is just a matter of degree over there.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/6/arab-and-muslim-perceptions-of-the-united-states

there is a huge difference in the degree of disliking an empire to the degree of actually going there and bombing yourself to hurt them. Al Qaeda is the latter, their whole basis is for the latter. You don't help those people just to help Saudi win the chess game vs. Iran.

That's what the whole game is about, US ally Saudi wants Assad out cause he supports their enemy Iran. US seems to be complying.

If you really think about it, what really started everything was that foiled attempt to kill that Saudi ambassador supposedly by Iran. Was it really Iran who attempted it,or the Mossad, or who??

[Wild Cobra]

Kadafi is definitely not a kind leader. however, the US and UN are now interfering with a sovereign nations rights to defend itself against enemies, foreign and domestic.

I'll give 5:1 odd that if Kadafi is overthrown, we will have a worse government in the aftermath to deal with than under his leadership.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

there is a huge difference in the degree of disliking an empire to the degree of actually going there and bombing yourself to hurt them. Al Qaeda is the latter, their whole basis is for the latter. You don't help those people just to help Saudi win the chess game vs. Iran.

That's what the whole game is about, US ally Saudi wants Assad out cause he supports their enemy Iran. US seems to be complying.

If you really think about it, what really started everything was that foiled attempt to kill that Saudi ambassador supposedly by Iran. Was it really Iran who attempted it,or the Mossad, or who??

I guess you have it all figured out. I suppose Homs has King Saud on speed dial and hes calling the shots.

Saudi-Iranian relations have been shit from the very beginning. Aside from the sectarian strife inherent between the two peoples the original Grand Ayatollah viewed the Saudi royal line as illegitimate right from the get go. Saying that the discord is something new is just plain ignorant.

Al Qaeda has had training camps for combatants in north arfrica, the near east and on the arabian peninsula for decades. Those that have been trained there are now 'Al Qaeda' forever regardless of their actual political motivations. I think you attribute entirely too much conspiracy to the acts of a bunch of poor relatively uneducated 25 year olds.

Arab culture has a centuries long tradition of nomadic fighters. This is just the most recent incarnation of it.

[cheguevara]

Saudi-Iranian relations have been shit from the very beginning. Aside from the sectarian strife inherent between the two peoples the original Grand Ayatollah viewed the Saudi royal line as illegitimate right from the get go. Saying that the discord is something new is just plain ignorant.

Who said it's new? Understanding the Sunni-Shiite issues is step #1 to trying to figure out the Middle East. Most of the Islam world including Saudi is Sunni. Iran is Shiite and isolated in a way. Nobody said this is something new.



Al Qaeda has had training camps for combatants in north arfrica, the near east and on the arabian peninsula for decades. Those that have been trained there are now 'Al Qaeda' forever regardless of their actual political motivations. I think you attribute entirely too much conspiracy to the acts of a bunch of poor relatively uneducated 25 year olds.

If all you can say of them is they are a bunch of uneducated 25 year olds you are being naive. Who organizes them? people who have money. Where does the money come from? oil money. All these organizations are highly organized and financed and go all the way to the top. They are not a "bunch of uneducated 25 year olds"



Arab culture has a centuries long tradition of nomadic fighters. This is just the most recent incarnation of it.

Agree, so picking sides is very fucking dumb. yet the US has been picking sides so they can use it to their advantage for 60+ years.

[ElNono]

Funny, I didn't know NATO picked a side in the civil war and bombed the shit out of the other.

Really? I guess you missed the entire Desert Storm campaign...


That' the whole point why NATO bombed Libya, cause the rebels had no chance.

They bombed them under a UN security council resolution after Ghadafi violated a cease fire order. Not unlike what triggered Desert Storm...


now their excuse was cause civilians were gonna get slaughtered. After knowing what we know, I'm not so sure they were telling the truth.

What is it that we know now? What's the report from the field, che? :lol

[ElNono]

cheguevara probably wasn't born yet during the Kosovo war either...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Who said it's new? Understanding the Sunni-Shiite issues is step #1 to trying to figure out the Middle East. Most of the Islam world including Saudi is Sunni. Iran is Shiite and isolated in a way. Nobody said this is something new.

If all you can say of them is they are a bunch of uneducated 25 year olds you are being naive. Who organizes them? people who have money. Where does the money come from? oil money. All these organizations are highly organized and financed and go all the way to the top. They are not a "bunch of uneducated 25 year olds"

Agree, so picking sides is very fucking dumb. yet the US has been picking sides so they can use it to their advantage for 60+ years.

Lol King Saud as Jacobin club meets boutons/NBADan VRWC.

We are allies with Turkey and the Saudis. We picked that side in the 1940s.

[cheguevara]

Yes
People didn't fought here during the Civil War?

:lmao ElNono

check your typing. You said "here". Here is the US. I obviously understood from that you were talking about the Civil War here.


They bombed them under a UN security council resolution after Ghadafi violated a cease fire order. Not unlike what triggered Desert Storm...

:lmao Desert Storm was triggered by Saddam invading Kuwait

:lmao what planet are you from?


What is it that we know now? What's the report from the field, che?

How Ghadafi was murdered, how violent the rebels are, how the people are really scared there now, how they have no organization, how most people there actually were ok with Ghadafi being in power, how Ghadafi planned to stop selling his oil in dollars

[ElNono]

check your typing. You said "here". Here is the US. I obviously understood from that you were talking about the Civil War here.

Yes, I was responding about the US over some bright "NATO attacking the US" hypothesis you threw out there... :lmao

The contention that people won't take arms on a civil war and fight for whatever they deem just for them is only in your head. Heck, you should be stripped of your nickname, for starters.


:lmao Desert Storm was triggered by Saddam invading Kuwait

:lmao what planet are you from?

Iraq:

Within hours of the invasion, Kuwaiti and U.S. delegations requested a meeting of the UN Security Council, which passed Resolution 660, condemning the invasion and demanding a withdrawal of Iraqi troops.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 665 followed soon after, which authorized a naval blockade to enforce the economic sanctions against Iraq. It said the “use of measures commensurate to the specific circumstances as may be necessary ... to halt all inward and outward maritime shipping in order to inspect and verify their cargoes and destinations and to ensure strict implementation of resolution 661.”

Lybia:

On 19 March 2011, a multi-state coalition began a military intervention in Libya to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, which was taken in response to events during the Libyan civil war


Kosovo:

On 23 March 1999 at 22:17 UTC the Secretary General of NATO, Javier Solana, announced he had directed the Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR), US Army General Wesley Clark, to "initiate air operations in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." On 24 March at 19:00 UTC NATO started its bombing campaign against Yugoslavia.

What planet are you from, che? :lmao

:lol keep reading, che... you have a lot to learn...


How Ghadafi was murdered, how violent the rebels are, how the people are really scared there now, how they have no organization, how most people there actually were ok with Ghadafi being in power, how Ghadafi planned to stop selling his oil in dollars

How do you know these things? Did you interview the Lybians? :lol

Oh wait, you know these things from the evil media! :lmao

It's a civial war, che, not a picnic... the power struggle is going to be there for a while.

[cheguevara]

:lmao :lmao

let me get it straight. you don't agree with the statement "the US attacked Iraq because they invaded Kuwait" ???

:lol wow

What country did Libya invade??

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao :lmao

let me get it straight. you don't agree with the statement "the US attacked Iraq because they invaded Kuwait" ???

:lol wow

What country did Libya invade??
I gave up trying to make ElNono understand reason. He is one twisted puppy.

[ElNono]

:lmao :lmao

let me get it straight. you don't agree with the statement "the US attacked Iraq because they invaded Kuwait" ???

No. :lol

The US invaded Iraq after Iraq was told to BY THE UN to withdraw from Kuwait, and it didn't follow.

And it wasn't just the US that attacked Iraq (in Desert Storm). It was a coalition of multinational forces (led by the US)


What country did Libya invade??

Lybia defied a resolution from the UN security council, much like Iraq did.

:lol what's really grand is that you're the one claiming to "know the real truth", yet you're not even aware that:

A) Nato didn't decide to attack Lybia. The UN security council did (which includes US arch-enemies such as Russia and China with veto power)

B) Nato has been picking sides well before Lybia (like in Kosovo, a decision that at the time didn't even have the UN security council backup)

:lol che with the feigned outrage at Nato for picking sides, when they've been doing that for years now.

wow indeed :lmao

[ElNono]

I gave up trying to make ElNono understand reason. He is one twisted puppy.

:lmao

Could you please put me on your ignore list? Thanks.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

Could you please put me on your ignore list? Thanks.
No, I like the comedy you bring. It's so comical that you are so ignorant that you don't see your stupidity. Feel free to ignore me however.

[ElNono]

No, I like the comedy you bring. It's so comical that you are so ignorant that you don't see your stupidity. Feel free to ignore me however.

I bet that line was a hit with the lady you were stalking online too. :lol

Is it time yet to start another thread about yourself and play the buffoon again? Apparently getting your ass kicked never gets old. :lmao

[cheguevara]

I gave up trying to make ElNono understand reason. He is one twisted puppy.

I normally don't agree with these descriptions. But after this thread, I agree 100% :lol

"Iraq invading Kuwait did not trigger the war. The fact that Saddam defied the resolution to withdraw is what really triggered it."

:wow homeboy got a few screws loose

:lol not knowing the meaning of the word INVASION

[cheguevara]

No, I like the comedy you bring. It's so comical that you are so ignorant that you don't see your stupidity. Feel free to ignore me however.

:rollin

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No, I like the comedy you bring. It's so comical that you are so ignorant that you don't see your stupidity. Feel free to ignore me however.

ElNono is rather well respected. Che is noted for conspiracy theories and you are universally regaled as the village idiot.

When i call you stupid i point to things like your working with capacitors every day but not knowing the properties of nor the availability of type or your lack of ability to distinguish between functions and variables.

There are clearly outlined reasons that can be independently verified. Your reputation around here is well defined. Making ad hominem attacks on him is just as deplorable as your hypocrisy of the above considering your whining about the peanut gallery.

You truly lack the ability for independent thought.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I normally don't agree with these descriptions. But after this thread, I agree 100% :lol

"Iraq invading Kuwait did not trigger the war. The fact that Saddam defied the resolution to withdraw is what really triggered it."

:wow homeboy got a few screws loose

:lol not knowing the meaning of the word INVASION

Technically he is right. You two are just arguing over a manner of degree on a point that matters little. We did not even spearhead the Libya thing. Sarkozy was all over that shit and the action was preceded by UN resolution which authorized the use of force. El is correct in saying that.

Ostensibly, the cause was the invasion or in Khadafi's case his rhetoric on state television.

And I am still trying to wrap my mind around how you think that oil interests in Libya organized the internal revolt. Or is your conspiracy that Saudi and US oil interests formented the revolt with plants because the last time I checked Khadafi controlled the oil in Libya.

[cheguevara]

Technically he is right. You two are just arguing over a manner of degree on a point that matters little. We did not even spearhead the Libya thing. Sarkozy was all over that shit and the action was preceded by UN resolution which authorized the use of force. El is correct in saying that.

Sorry but to say "Iraq war started because Saddam invaded Kuwait" is also correct. To say that is not correct because of your technicality is simply infantile. Once Saddam invaded Kuwait there was no turning back on the war. It's silly to think there was a possibility he could have withdrawn and thus avoided the war. You don't invade a country to withdraw a few days later, that completely violates the purpose of invasion. Saddam ignoring any dumb ass resolution was part of his INVASION.



And I am still trying to wrap my mind around how you think that oil interests in Libya organized the internal revolt. Or is your conspiracy that Saudi and US oil interests formented the revolt with plants because the last time I checked Khadafi controlled the oil in Libya.

I never said we organized the revolts. I am saying we picked a side. Once again picked a side that goes to our interest, ignoring the instability that would cause and the fact that it might come back to bite us as it has in the past.

[Wild Cobra]

I normally don't agree with these descriptions. But after this thread, I agree 100% :lol

"Iraq invading Kuwait did not trigger the war. The fact that Saddam defied the resolution to withdraw is what really triggered it."

:wow homeboy got a few screws loose

:lol not knowing the meaning of the word INVASION
ElNono has become nothing more than a cheerleader for the left.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are you familiar with the history between France and Libya formerly known as the Barbary Coast?

[cheguevara]

what about it

[ElNono]

"Iraq invading Kuwait did not trigger the war. The fact that Saddam defied the resolution to withdraw is what really triggered it."

:wow homeboy got a few screws loose

Am I wrong? I quoted the resolutions and the chain of events...

Tell me I'm wrong :lmao

[ElNono]

Sorry but to say "Iraq war started because Saddam invaded Kuwait" is also correct. To say that is not correct because of your technicality is simply infantile. Once Saddam invaded Kuwait there was no turning back on the war. It's silly to think there was a possibility he could have withdrawn and thus avoided the war. You don't invade a country to withdraw a few days later, that completely violates the purpose of invasion. Saddam ignoring any dumb ass resolution was part of his INVASION.

This is baloney. Saddam had no choice? Says who?


I never said we organized the revolts. I am saying we picked a side. Once again picked a side that goes to our interest, ignoring the instability that would cause and the fact that it might come back to bite us as it has in the past.

So the the problem isn't that we picked a side, but which side we picked.

And as Fuzzy correctly points out too, this was a French-led operation.

[ElNono]

ElNono has become nothing more than a cheerleader for the left.

shhhh... be quiet. Adults speaking.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

what about it

Tripoli and all of the mediterranean countries have a long history of issues. The Ottoman Empire supported pirates out of Tripoli for centuries, France embargoed them for a very long time. More recently Ghadafi and France have butted heads over influnece in Morrocco and other west african states. Further there are a good amount of Libyan immigrants and i am sure you have read the news concerning France and legislation concerning muslim immigrants.

Like i said Sarkozy had a hard on for Libya.

Because Spain, italy and France are not quite so enamored with Syria, we have not intervened there. I do not doubt that oil interests were not prime political interests as well but trying to paint a conspiracy where its oil barons controlling foreign policy misses a lot of history.

[ChumpDumper]

Elections are in June right?

Just have to wait and see.

[ElNono]

Because Spain, italy and France are not quite so enamored with Syria, we have not intervened there. I do not doubt that oil interests were not prime political interests as well but trying to paint a conspiracy where its oil barons controlling foreign policy misses a lot of history.

It also misses that countries like China or Russia, who have veto power in the UN security council, would bark right away if they perceived any benefits to the US (like they did when Powell presented it's case seeking a resolution to invade Iraq and was denied).

[cheguevara]

such a great success deposing of Ghadafi



Witnesses: Tribal clashes in Libya kill scores

Scores of civilians have been killed in the past 24 hours in tribal warfare in a remote region of southern Libya, witnesses said on Tuesday.

Moussa Bazama, an ambulance worker driving north taking the injured to treatment, said 50 people had been killed by the rockets, mortars and gunfire rocking residential areas in the desert town of Kufra.

Lines of trucks and cars carrying hundreds of families were streaming out of Kufra on the highway leading towards the populated areas of the coast, some 500 miles (800 kilometers) away.

“The situation is extremely bad,’’ said Abdel-Rehim al-Shewih, an engineer in Kufra contacted by phone. “It is about who kills the most every day.’’

Libya’s defense ministry said on several occasions that it sent troops to stop the clashes, but witnesses said that those forces have not intervened to stop the war.

“Officials say: ‘This is tribal. So what? Let them tear each other apart?’’’ al-Shewih said. “Blood is spilled every day, non-stop.’’

http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-21/news/31083871_1_tribe-mustafa-abdul-jalil-kufra

[cheguevara]

where is NATO?


More than 100 killed in south Libya clashes

Fierce clashes between two tribes in Libya’s remote southeastern desert have killed more than 100 people over the past 10 days, tribal sources said on Tuesday.

At least 113 people from the Toubu tribe and another 23 from the Zwai tribe have been killed in the town of Kufra since fighting erupted on February 12, the sources said.

“We are under siege since a week. Since the start of the clashes, 113 people (from our side) have been killed, including six children,” Toubu chief Issa Abdelmajid told AFP by telephone.


oh that's right, they fucked the country up, got rid of Ghadafi, mission accomplished and left the people to the dogs

[Winehole23]

more intervention is needed, then?

[cheguevara]

:lol mission accomplished

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rPGj__GKl_g/TZH1PwrG4SI/AAAAAAAAAh4/5MRlbyy-Tns/s1600/OBAMA_LIBYA+speech.jpg

[cheguevara]

more intervention is needed, then?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OP0IN8djdT0/S8ces3nXmZI/AAAAAAAAAGg/go4vWxpVWMM/s320/simpsons_doctor-798476.gif

[Winehole23]

should we have stayed longer, in your opinion?

[cheguevara]

would you let this guy operate on your mom in the first place?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OP0IN8djdT0/S8ces3nXmZI/AAAAAAAAAGg/go4vWxpVWMM/s320/simpsons_doctor-798476.gif

US/NATO are that guy

[Winehole23]

thanks for using your words. makes it much easier to understand what you post.

[cheguevara]

:tu

[Winehole23]

The trend of Libyan tribal militias getting into epic conflicts over trivial disputes continues today, with reports from a doctor in the far southern city of Sabha saying a fight over ownership of a car left 20 killed and 40 others wounded (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Mar-26/168008-10-killed-in-tribal-clashes-in-libya-officials.ashx).


The fight was between one of the local Sabha militias and a Tabu tribal militia, and took place after a Tibu tribesman killed a Abu Seif tribesman over the car ahead of a planned meeting between the two tribes (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iS7sPT0VFR9zUH5ynWa6hSO-zG2w?docId=b93dc517a9314395821a008ed5040ecd). The toll was extremely preliminary, and the doctor said that the “40 wounded” only counted Sabha wounded, as the Tibu forces took their casualties to a different hospital.


This is the second major clash the Tabu tribe have found themselves in in a little over a month. Last month, the tribe fought with the Zwia near the southern town of Kufra (further east and south than Sabha), with some 50 civilians killed in the fight (http://news.antiwar.com/2012/03/26/2012/02/21/witnesses-over-50-civilians-killed-in-south-libya-clashes/).


Libyan National Transitional Council (NTC) leader Mustafa Abdul-Jalil conceded that Libya is suffering with instability, and insisted that it was because the rest of the NTC “lacks confidence” and isn’t being more forceful.
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/03/26/20-killed-as-militias-clash-in-southern-libya/

[RandomGuy]

http://news.antiwar.com/2012/03/26/20-killed-as-militias-clash-in-southern-libya/

Iraq, Yugoslavia, etc.

Remove the lid of totalitarian states, and the ethnic boil overs are inevitable.

This is to be expected.

Hopefully they will get over it.

[RandomGuy]

I normally don't agree with these descriptions. But after this thread, I agree 100% :lol

"Iraq invading Kuwait did not trigger the war. The fact that Saddam defied the resolution to withdraw is what really triggered it."

:wow homeboy got a few screws loose

:lol not knowing the meaning of the word INVASION

That is correct, actually.

After the invasion came the demands to withdraw, which were ignored.

Basically Saddam got what he thought was a green light to grab it, because he badly misinterpreted some diplomatic communications.

After he was in, he didn't think the West would have the werewithal to get him out.

[Winehole23]

Iraq, Yugoslavia, etc.

Remove the lid of totalitarian states, and the ethnic boil overs are inevitable.

This is to be expected.

Hopefully they will get over it.They may not. Have Iraq and Yugoslavia "gotten over it" yet?

[Wild Cobra]

Let me get this strait.

The Libyan civil war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_civil_war) starts in February. In March, the UN votes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973) to establish a no fly zone during a conflict.

You idiots who supported this effort fell for the "poor civilian" aspect.

It was a civil war in progress for a month already.

I guess nobody wants a self sufficient Arab country.

[mavs>spurs]

Yep, we took out gaddafi and now radical muslims have taken over the country and killed an american.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You guys really need to revisit what you think our involvement in Libya has been since the beginning. Your revisioning is expected if unfounded.

First off, the French and British led that particular charge and we gave assistance to our NATO allies. We have not had any police action or nation building beyond regular diplomatic interactions. Our political alternative in the GOP was asking for us to do more there which should be self evident.

[Wild Cobra]

You guys really need to revisit what you think our involvement in Libya has been since the beginning. Your revisioning is expected if unfounded.

No revisionism here. I'm just looking at the facts.


First off, the French and British led that particular charge
So?

and we gave assistance to our NATO allies.
We shouldn't have. We should have used the veto.

We have not had any police action or nation building beyond regular diplomatic interactions.
That's all we needed.

Our political alternative in the GOP was asking for us to do more there which should be self evident.

I would ask for proof of this only because I don't believe anything you say. You are a confirmed troll and liar here. However, it doesn't matter. If true, it is still wrong.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Umm exactly where have I intentionally misled people? If you are going to make that accusation you should at least back it up.

[Wild Cobra]

Umm exactly where have I intentionally misled people?
You lie all the time.

If you are going to make that accusation you should at least back it up.
No need to. It's so obvious, I know others see it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

An example? Or are you just going to be a little bitch about it?

[Wild Cobra]

An example? Or are you just going to be a little bitch about it?
You are too pathetic for me to waste but a few keystrokes at a time. How do I get that time back? You are so unimportant to me, I don't care. I would be more willing to spend time with people like Mouse. At least he isn't a chronic liar. He's just misguided.

[TeyshaBlue]

Ok. Little bitch it is.

[clambake]

Ok. Little bitch it is.

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Ok. Little bitch it is.:rollin

[CosmicCowboy]

In WC's defense on this one I tend to ignore FuzzyLumpkins too. His aggressive ignorance and constant mis-characterizations of positions is just not worth wasting time over. He's like the screaming out of control little kid running through the adults cocktail party.

[clambake]

and cowboys pussification moves on.

[CosmicCowboy]

and cowboys pussification moves on.

And Clambake is just a tiny fraction higher than FuzzyLumpkins on the quality poster list. Just a blonde pubic hair of separation.

[Shastafarian]

Nobody is as dumb as a dumb man who thinks he’s smart.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

In WC's defense on this one I tend to ignore FuzzyLumpkins too. His aggressive ignorance and constant mis-characterizations of positions is just not worth wasting time over. He's like the screaming out of control little kid running through the adults cocktail party.

What mischaracterizations? I freely admit that I am adversarial, mean and pedantic at times but fail to see the validity of your general dismissal here.

You going to be a little bitch about it too?

[ChumpDumper]

I don't talk to meanies, Fuzzy. Consider yourself shunned.

[clambake]

i just heard some old dumbass say that if obama were prez in 62, cuba would have soviet nukes!

anybody else hear that gem!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And Clambake is just a tiny fraction higher than FuzzyLumpkins on the quality poster list. Just a blonde pubic hair of separation.

It's interesting. You accuse me of characterizations but then turn around and do nothing but since that time.

I do not know if you have been drinking again or not but at some level you have to be aware of the hypocrisy in that. Such cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, and forsaking of values is the hallmark of your generation so it shouldn't be surprising.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't talk to meanies, Fuzzy. Consider yourself shunned.

lgI2ZQVyrBo

[TeyshaBlue]

It's interesting. You accuse me of characterizations but then turn around and do nothing but since that time.

I do not know if you have been drinking again or not but at some level you have to be aware of the hypocrisy in that. Such cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, and forsaking of values is the hallmark of your generation so it shouldn't be surprising.

Generational smack? Get off my lawn.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Generational smack? Get off my lawn.

:lol

I know it's bad but when I hear Boomer types spouting agism i cannot help myself. Its the burden i bear.

[Wild Cobra]

What mischaracterizations? I freely admit that I am adversarial, mean and pedantic at times but fail to see the validity of your general dismissal here.

You going to be a little bitch about it too?
Really...

You rarely get the details right.

Lie to us all you want. I just hope you aren't lying to yourself.

[SnakeBoy]

Nobody is as dumb as a dumb man who thinks he’s smart.

Are you smart?

[Wild Cobra]

bump

[ElNono]

What's the bump about?

[cheguevara]

:lmao what happened to all the Obama defenders??

I guess too much hope and change did them in :lmao :lmao

[boutons_deux]

obama was and still is 100x better than dubya and certainly McLiar or BishopGecko

[cheguevara]

obama was and still is 100x better than dubya and certainly McLiar or BishopGecko

the jury is still out on this one. the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner still is within range of becoming a worse disaster than W.

with his recent comments, IMO he has the potential:
- "Intelligence is knowing what I had for breakfast"
- "The world's credibility is at stake if we don't attack Syria"
- "the attack on Syria would not be for regime change, only to punish them"
- "I am not asking for approval to start a war, this is a small missile and bombing campaign we are talking about"

:lol face it Obama is withing striking distance of making W a fond memory :lol

[Wild Cobra]

With what has happened in Libya this past year or so, do you liberals still support the 2011 actions?

[m>s]

Rip colonel gaddafi

[angrydude]

but-but-but Arab Spring!

[ChumpDumper]

lol selective nation building.

[boutons_deux]

With what has happened in Libya this past year or so, do you liberals still support the 2011 actions?

With what has happened in Iraq, Afghanistan these past 13 years or so, do you Repug voters still support the dubya/dickhead actions?

Iraq, Afghanistan has been as lost, wasted, destructive as Viet Nam. USA NUMBER ONE!

Why Do They Hate Us?

What Does The World Consider USA THE NUMBER ONE THREAT?

[Wild Cobra]

With what has happened in Iraq, Afghanistan these past 13 years or so, do you Repug voters still support the dubya/dickhead actions?

Iraq, Afghanistan has been as lost, wasted, destructive as Viet Nam. USA NUMBER ONE!

Why Do They Hate Us?

What Does The World Consider USA THE NUMBER ONE THREAT?
Iraq is better off, isn't it?

Afghanistan... Why is Obama still there?

[boutons_deux]

Iraq is better off, isn't it?

Afghanistan... Why is Obama still there?

Iraq has many times more dead and displaced than anything than "bad man" Saddam caused, and the sectarian murders by 100s/month continue.

iow, Iraq is much worse off than in Feb 2003. And of course, America's toxic, long-lasting "war pollution" is still sickening and killing, just like in VN.

[Wild Cobra]

Iraq has many times more dead and displaced than anything than "bad man" Saddam caused, and the sectarian murders by 100s/month continue.

iow, Iraq is much worse off than in Feb 2003. And of course, America's toxic, long-lasting "war pollution" is still sickening and killing, just like in VN.
Too bad the rags you read are full of shit.

[boutons_deux]

Too bad the rags you read are full of shit.

If you say so, it must be true.

[Wild Cobra]

If you say so, it must be true.
LOL...

Iraq didn't have a complete HDI rating by the UN before the war, but the two indicators it did have were worse in 2000 than in 2005. Iraqs HDI has been increasing since 2005, and is at 0.590 now.

How about finding some facts rather than going by organizations like Common Dreams.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Iraq is better off, isn't it?

Afghanistan... Why is Obama still there?

Iraq is still just as fucked up place as it ever was.

[Infinite_limit]

Iraq is worse off today than after USA "liberated it"

[Winehole23]

Egyptian jets bombed Islamic State targets in Libya (http://bit.ly/1stYSAO) on Monday, a day after the group there released a video showing the beheading of 21 Egyptian Christians, drawing Cairo directly into the conflict across its border.http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/16/us-mideast-crisis-libya-egypt-idUSKBN0LJ10D20150216

[FromWayDowntown]

Iraq is better off, isn't it?

[boutons_deux]

"We're From the US Military and we are invading, bombing you to make your lives better!"

USA USA USA #1

[m>s]

I was pissed when they killed gaddafi and for good reason. He and turkey were keeping the hordes out of Europe. Now look at it.

[DMX7]

Iraq is better off, isn't it?


No.



Afghanistan... Why is Obama still there?

At least that was the actual source of the threat.

[Wild Cobra]

I'll give 5:1 odd that if Kadafi is overthrown, we will have a worse government in the aftermath to deal with than under his leadership.

What do you all think now?

Is libya better or worse?

And our support to overthrow Assad?

Another Oblunderer moment...