Leonard V Undrafted

[pancakechef]

Wanted to compare Leonard with 2 undrafted Seniors.


1) Leonard 6'7 225lbs Junk Team

2) David Lighty 6'5 220 Good Team

3) Matt Howard 6'8 230 Good Team


PPG: 15.5 12.1 16.4
APG: 2.5 3.3 1.4
FG%: 44% 46% 47%
3%: 29% 43% 40%
RPG: 10.6 4 7.7

Add to that Leonard leads the way in TO pg.

Lighty is a better defender on the perimeter, handles the ball better, and is a smarter player. He has the three that we are looking for but his FT is horrendous. No mid range J.

Leonard is more of a genetic beast. Long decent body up defender. Solid rebounder. Great elbow J. Limited anything else. Poor handles and not very smart with the ball

Howard is better than Bonner and can be used just the same. Not athletic. But neither is Bonner. Howard is more consistent and doesnt let a wet fart when the pressure is on.

For Bowen 2.0 its Lighty for sure. Comparing Leonard to undrafted players hes not much to look at.

[admiralsnackbar]

Poor handles? First time I've heard that. In fact, just based on what I've seen of Leonard, I'm gonna go ahead and say that his dribbling skills are far superior to Bowen's.

[Leetonidas]

First guy is 6'5"

Second guy is like Bonner?

/thread

[pancakechef]

Leonard is a F who turns the ball over more than Lighty.

Leonard has no range in the paint or outside the three.

It doesnt matter that Lighty is 6'5 he is a better perimeter defender, passer and 3 pt shooter than Leonard.

Howard is an example of replacing Bonner and his stats are better than Leonard's even though he played better competition.

[pancakechef]

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kawhi-Leonard-5821/

Thanks

[TheProfessor]

I see "Can't Start Threads" in your future.

[Mr. Body]

Good God, are you serious with this thread?

I guess you've never seen Matt Howard or David Lighty play, or have any idea who they are? In no way do they play the same position or have the same skills as Kawhi Leonard.

[pancakechef]

It would almost be intelligent to back up your comments with "real" examples.

Please read his draft file. Watch a full game he has played.

David Lighty could fit into the perimeter defender role that Leonard will play. Obviously you did not watch Pop use Hill the past two years did you?

Great try though. Lets get a questionable defender who cannot shoot the ball. GREAT JOB! This would almost be a good pick if we DIDNT NEED SCORING and someone to CREATE HIS OWN SHOT.

This just in, you are clueless.

[Hollinger]

I guess you've never seen Matt Howard or David Lighty play, or have any idea who they are? In no way do they play the same position or have the same skills as Kawhi Leonard.

You don't actually have to see them play when you have the numbers right in front of you.

[pancakechef]

The best part about homers are reading their responses.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

You don't actually have to see them play when you have the numbers right in front of you.

:lol well done

[Kindergarten Cop]

Lets get a questionable defender who cannot shoot the ball. GREAT JOB!

This is the first time I've heard this.

[Waps1980]

So if these undrafted guys are so good why did no one draft them.
If they are better or equally as good why did they not make top 20???

Your an idiot.

[Mel_13]

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kawhi-Leonard-5821/

Thanks

DX had Leonard at 14 in their final mock draft and as high as 7th.

Lighty was 53rd in their final mock and no higher than 37th.

Good reference, DX is.

[xellos88330]

Kawhi Leonard definitely has the physical tools needed in the NBA. The Spurs made a great choice with Leonard. The Spurs don't need another scorer. They need someone who can affect the game without needing to score. Leonard is a player who can provide a huge array of intangibles.

Leonard was also the main reason for that 34-3 record, and the NCAA tournament berth. He was the go-to guy on that team. You said it yourself that the others were on "good" teams. He shouldered enormous responsibility on that team and considering that he pretty much was the team, he was a great success. What did those other two guys do besides be role players on good teams? Have they ever had defenses geared to specifically stop them?

I will take my chances with Kawhi.

[Interrohater]

How does one "have no range inside the paint"? He must really suck. We should have traded George Hill for these two undrafted guys. Also, we don't need someone who can score or create his own shot. With Manu and Tony still on the team, there's no room for that. We really need defense and rebounding. I'm not sure why that's difficult for you to understand.

[k_nguyen93]

DX had Leonard at 14 in their final mock draft and as high as 7th.

Lighty was 53rd in their final mock and no higher than 37th.

Good reference, DX is.

No Leonard could have gone as high as Toronto at 5 or Washington at 6.

While we're on subject of numbers here are some:

Matt Howard: 22 years old
David Lighty: 23 years old (???)

Leonard would be statistically better than both of them by his senior year if he had chosen to stay. The good team argument isn't that good. Teams probably doubled on Leonard more (I'm assuming) if the rest of his teammates weren't that good. Howard and Lighty were on Butler + Ohio State.

[dbestpro]

NBA players do not get drafted for where they are but rather where they are going to be, As much as I like Lighty he will never be bigger that 6-5. A SF in today's NBA needs to be at least 6-7. Avatar is only 19 years old, while Lighty is 23.
You consider that the players come from big schools, which makes them better, but in fact coming from a small school and achieving such success is much more difficult as you are still playing major schools. CBS draft gurus had him going 5, 6 or 8 in three mock drafts. Avatar is a solid player and will be here for many years to come.
In regards to Bonner I would even sign Qyntel Woods if it would get him off the team.

[Mr. Body]

A much better question would be, why Cory Joseph instead of Shelvin Mack?

[benefactor]

Do you suck at making pancakes too?

[pancakechef]

I would agree with the Lighty being undersized. But he is still a better defender than our draft pick on the perimeter. His ability to shoot the three is better than our pick as well.

No one can say if he would be "statistically better"

"range inside the paint" = he cant finish

this draft sucks and we took a huge risk. It would be interesting to see where he would get picked next year

[Leetonidas]

Leonard is a F who turns the ball over more than Lighty.

Leonard has no range in the paint or outside the three.

It doesnt matter that Lighty is 6'5 he is a better perimeter defender, passer and 3 pt shooter than Leonard.

Howard is an example of replacing Bonner and his stats are better than Leonard's even though he played better competition.

Didn't know Leonard would be entrusted to be anything more than a defensive stopper. :wow

George Hill couldn't shoot for shit when he got here and now he and Dick are great corner 3 shooters, something Leonard will be taught. Do you really think a player has maxed before he gets into the NBA to really work on his game with the best of the best?

[wildbill2u]

Thirty teams with full-time professional scouting staffs and a myriad of outside analysts like Draft Express and Real Gm who are also paid for evaluating prospects failed to see what you see in these two.

If you are proved right by the next season or two, then you need to quit flippin flapjacks and get a job with an NBA team.

[Interrohater]

I'm sorry pancakechef, but I don't see giving up George Hill, an undersized SG who tries to play PG, is overrated defensively, wilts under pressure and was having a hard time finding his role for a promising younger talent as a huge risk. Leonard's talents and focus' are directly in line with the team's needs right now. We need rebounding, we need defense and we need hustle. George Hill gave us one of those. If he doesn't pan out, then we've only lost a player who was still trying to find his place on the team.

[benefactor]

We already have Lighty. His name is Danny Green. Green is also ahead of the curve as he was with the team last year.

Move on.

[TimmehC]

This would almost be a good pick if we DIDNT NEED SCORING and someone to CREATE HIS OWN SHOT.

lol #2 offense in the league

lol still need scoring

lol 2 inches shorter version of bonner

lol yet another shooting guard

lol not having any fucking clue what the team needs

[pancakechef]

lol #2 offense in the league

lol still need scoring

lol 2 inches shorter version of bonner

lol yet another shooting guard

lol not having any fucking clue what the team needs

LOL at grown man using LOL.

LOL at you forgetting what we couldnt do in the playoffs

LOL at you applauding running in the reg season then playing stall-ball in the playoffs.

LOL at you being clueless

NEXT

[xellos88330]

LOL at grown man using LOL.

NEXT

So you aren't a grown man then?


QUICK SOMEONE GO DOWNSTAIRS AND GET GUISEPPE!!!

[Mr. Body]

I'm still puzzled about how we're supposed to compare Matt Howard with Kawhi Leonard.

[pancakechef]

His scoring. His height, his rebounding. If we want a SF to play defender and hit a three then Howard is better than Leonard on O. Not so much on D

[pancakechef]

I really wish SA would make the illegal mexicans take a class on reading comprehension, and higher level thinking, maybe a basketball PE course? The comments on here are making everyone laugh.

Si Senor

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

San Diego State was #3 in the final regular season RPI this year and went to the Sweet 16. Not exactly a "junk" team.

Isn't there some sort of a computer interlock device that people have to blow into in order to determine their IQ prior to being allowed to post? If not I'm going to invent one. Friends don't let friends post dumb sh!t.

[Mr. Body]

His scoring. His height, his rebounding. If we want a SF to play defender and hit a three then Howard is better than Leonard on O. Not so much on D

In no way, shape or form is Matt Howard now or will he ever be a SF. I follow Butler pretty closely. My parents met at Butler and my Dad flies up there a couple times a year to watch games. I've watched enough of my share, and was even at the Final Four in 2010 in Indianapolis. You need to stop talking like a retard.

[Mr. Body]

San Diego State was #3 in the final regular season RPI this year and went to the Sweet 16. Not exactly a "junk" team.


They were also bumped off by the eventual National Champion.

[K-State Spur]

Lighty...is still a better defender than our draft pick on the perimeter.r

Based on what? All the NBA talent-level wings in the Big 10 that he shut down?

[DesignatedT]

lol san diego state a "junk" team.

[Interrohater]

I really wish SA would make the illegal mexicans take a class on reading comprehension, and higher level thinking, maybe a basketball PE course? The comments on here are making everyone laugh.

Si Senor
So basically, when everyone here disagrees with you, your only recourse is to vomit racist insults. What is so high-level about thinking that either one of two undrafted players is better than a projected lottery pick, number 15 pick? Now, if you were a NBA scout, then your arguments would hold more water. However, you're a scrub on a junk team spouting your opinion as fact.

[pancakechef]

I know, that one game against Uconn made them a powerhouse in terms of opponents

http://goaztecs.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2010-2011/teamcume.html

[pancakechef]

Yes, I know Matt Howard would make a better PF which is why I listed him as a better stretch that Bonner. I referenced him with Leonard to make his 3% shooting that much more disastrous. READ THE COMMENTS. If we wanted a SF.... then Howard is better on O. Not so much on D.

me gusta leer!

[Mr. Body]

In no way is Matt Howard a SF. I don't understand why you're so brain damaged you cannot understand this.

[pancakechef]

No one said he was a SF. I just said for being A PF he shoots a three better than a SF. If we need a scoring wing who can play D what is the sense of getting only an athletic player who cant do either necessarily well. THAT MAKES AS MUCH SENSE AS PUTTING A PF on the WING especially since he can shoot a 3 10x better than Leonard.

Thick

[Bill_Brasky]

:lmao Matt Howard

Fucking dude sucks man. He is a hustle player and I'll give him that but he was barely able to get it done in college and killed the offense with poor shot selection. He could barely shoot the COLLEGE 3 that well and was streaky as hell with it, don't even want to see him try an NBA 3.

The reason we couldn't run in the PO's was because of our bad defense, mainly RJ jumping at every Sam Young pump fake. Leonard will not let those sort of shenanigans go on.

lol responding to trollthread

[pancakechef]

From post #1


Howard is better than Bonner and can be used just the same. Not athletic. But neither is Bonner. Howard is more consistent and doesnt let a wet fart when the pressure is on.

[pancakechef]

Great reading skills

[K-State Spur]

Yes, I know Matt Howard would make a better PF which is why I listed him as a better stretch that Bonner. I referenced him with Leonard to make his 3% shooting that much more disastrous. READ THE COMMENTS. If we wanted a SF.... then Howard is better on O. Not so much on D.

me gusta leer!

When Howard was 19 - he was such a good 3PT shooter that he only attempted 9 3 pointers all year (only hit 2 of those). ...And that was with a shorter arc.

And, as a center, Howard got an open 3 on just about any possession that he wanted with opposing centers reluctant to follow him outside.

FWIW, while he greatly improved as a shooter by his SR year, he still built that up against lackluster competition - hitting only 9/34 3s in the tournament (below 30%). For comparison, Leonard hit 4/10.

That doesn't even take into account that Howard would have a well below average handle, court vision, passing ability, quickness, and turns the ball over too much for a SF. .

..Not a big deal, because he's not a small forward and has never been asked to be one and never will be asked to be one.

[Nathan89]

No one said he was a SF. I just said for being A PF he shoots a three better than a SF. If we need a scoring wing who can play D what is the sense of getting only an athletic player who cant do either necessarily well. THAT MAKES AS MUCH SENSE AS PUTTING A PF on the WING especially since he can shoot a 3 10x better than Leonard.

Thick

Exaggerate much?

[pancakechef]

I'll agree that matt howard sucks, I will also agree that so did this whole draft. So if your the 50th sucky player in a sucky draft you still suck. = leonard.

Put it into context.

We could have gotten something for nothing with lighty, still traded hill and given us a pick next year or a vet.

Thinking that the addition of Leonard makes us legit is insane. We will still have the same problems if the coaching remains the same.

all in all it was good we got rid of hill. Leonard is not a great player and needs to be in a running situation to be successful. FACT. If our coach tries the same BS as last year in the POs it will be the same thing for us and the pick will be wasted.

RJs crap defense had nothing to do with the playoffs. He was an awful defender in the regular season. We lost because we didnt play to outscore the opponent. We didnt run enough.

[pancakechef]

sorry leonards shooting ability allows him to knock down a whopping 29% a season from NCAA 3. Perfect

[K-State Spur]

We could have gotten something for nothing with lighty, still traded hill and given us a pick next year or a vet.


Saying Lighty is 'something' is a hell of a reach. Especially considering that not one team wanted him in this "sucky" draft.

[ChumpDumper]

I'll agree that matt howard sucks, I will also agree that so did this whole draft. So if your the 50th sucky player in a sucky draft you still suck.And if you are undrafted in a sucky draft, you suck worse.

[pancakechef]

In reality what team wants a defensive specialist besides us?

Scoring is the name of the game in this league and always will be now that it is so commercialized.

Interesting fact about athletic ability. Lighty is stronger and has a better vert than Leonard.

My take is this: we want a stopper and thats fine. But we will have to have one with some sort of offensive game. Leonard might be a long, athletic player but his shooting will hurt us. Especially since we need a scorer now. Again, it could be a decent pick if we run like the regular season and not go to trying to have Tim dominate like the playoffs

[Nathan89]

Saying Lighty is 'something' is a hell of a reach. Especially considering that not one team wanted him in this "sucky" draft.

I just wonder where a player like Lighty would be drafted in a strong draft class.

[ChumpDumper]

In reality what team wants a defensive specialist besides us? lol

[pancakechef]

Nathan good point.

[William Hung]

This guy is a combination of KBP and Basketball Power :rollin

[Mr. Body]

Lighty wouldn't get drafted because he's 23 years old already. Teams draft on potential as much as what players have already shown.

Doesn't mean he can't or won't be a good pro. It's just that no one was going to take the plunge on a guy who's already wysiwyg.

[Mr. Body]

Matt Howard was scrappy as fuck, but damn if I haven't seen him miss about a billion chippies around the rim. If he could actually score down low Butler might have beaten Duke or UConn and have a championship right now.

Meanwhile, dude in no way is a SF. And bringing him up in this thread still leaves me baffled what OP was trying to say.

[Leetonidas]

lol pancakefaggot getting bukkaked on

[Buddy Holly]

Did TJ register a new name or something?

Pancakechef is a fucking joke, plain and simple.

[MannyIsGod]

SDSU is a junk team? :lol

[Mr. Body]

I'd have more respect for SDSU if their coach was well-regarded and had any sort of success in the NCAA Tournament in the past, or success in coaching future NBA players. Oh, wait...

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Did TJ register a new name or something?

Pancakechef is a fucking joke, plain and simple.

TJ as in me?

[pancakechef]

I'd have more respect for SDSU if their coach was well-regarded and had any sort of success in the NCAA Tournament in the past, or success in coaching future NBA players. Oh, wait...

When SDSU makes consecutive runs in the tourney you call me. I could pay players to come to my institution in San Diego too. Now THATS COACHING.


Notice how everyone danced around any validity or solid points in this thread other than me. Next time you have an opinion back it up with a fact, not just another opinion.

Claro que si!

[benefactor]

Notice how everyone danced around any validity or solid points in this thread other than me.

We already have Lighty. His name is Danny Green. Green is also ahead of the curve as he was with the team last year.

Move on.
:wakeup

[Mr. Body]

When SDSU makes consecutive runs in the tourney you call me.

They can't make another impressive run in the NCAAs next year. Because their best player was drafted into the NBA.

[mountainballer]

why do you people all bash this pancake guy that bad?
just give a hand. I didn't see any poster try to tell him where he can find some basic knowledge about basketball, especially college basketball. here you go:
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/21/san-diego-state-aztecs
see guys. you would help a blind man cross the street, wouldn't you.

[UnWantedTheory]

why do you people all bash this pancake guy that bad?
just give a hand. I didn't see any poster try to tell him where he can find some basic knowledge about basketball, especially college basketball. here you go:
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/21/san-diego-state-aztecs
see guys. you would help a blind man cross the street, wouldn't you.
If the OP is an indication of what a blind mind is, I will gladly watch them all get hit by cars.

[pancakechef]

They can't make another impressive run in the NCAAs next year. Because their best player was drafted into the NBA.

Shouldnt matter. Their great coach and powerhouse program will reload.....


zzzzzzzz

[pancakechef]

Im impressed by the links. Nothing like revisiting a weak schedule in a weak conference.

[pgardn]

When SDSU makes consecutive runs in the tourney you call me. I could pay players to come to my institution in San Diego too. Now THATS COACHING.


Notice how everyone danced around any validity or solid points in this thread other than me. Next time you have an opinion back it up with a fact, not just another opinion.

Claro que si!

We all have different opinions about players that we have seen. You back your opinions with facts that support your opinion only when the facts fit. You like to dismiss opinions or points that do not support your contention. Fine. We got it. The facts presented are statistical in nature for the most part. And these facts do not necessarily accurately represent an opinion about a players game in college and may be radically different from what the player might accomplish in the pros. So its all supposition, the evaluation of a college player becoming a good pro is a very difficult process for most of these players.

And I personally do not appreciate the racist remarks that you use to dismiss Spurs fans in general. I suggest you stop. thanks.

[Solid D]

In reality what team wants a defensive specialist besides us?

Most NBA teams, past and present, want one. Not all have a highly skilled specialist but many covet one.

Memphis didn't bring in Tony Allen and Shane Battier for their scoring. OKC doesn't have Nick Collison for his points. The job he did on Zebo was better than what Dice did. Dallas didn't bring in Chandler and Brewer for offensive purposes.

[Bill_Brasky]

lol thinking having a ton of depth at PG/SG is more important than having a stud wing defender.

Duncan anchors our paint defense. He needs one more person to help him out now.

Leonard has a chance to take our team up a notch defensively by locking down the perimeter with his freakishly long body. We are instantly a way better team if he ends up being that defender.