Would you be willing to trade RJ for Travis Outlaw?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

This is taken from ESPN's 5 on 5:

Devin Kharpertian, Nets Are Scorching:

San Antonio gets: Travis Outlaw
New Jersey gets: Richard Jefferson


"It's a minor deal, but most trades are; the Nets and Spurs should swap troubled small forwards Travis Outlaw and Richard Jefferson. Financially, Outlaw would help the Spurs get further under the luxury tax, while Jefferson's contract ends a year earlier. Both players are reviled by their respective fan bases, but a change of scenery and role could revive their careers."



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=5-on-5-110704



What say you?

[TE]

Given the circumstances under which the deal was theoretically proposed, it's very unlikely to happen unless talks have begun.




The answer to your question: yes.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I don't think it'll happen at all, but RJ does have a history with NJ, and we can always pray.

[TE]

Oh and yeah, the lockout happened.



Stick a butter knife in that trade possibility.

[TJastal]

Jefferson for Outlaw makes sense for both teams. I noticed Troy Murphy is listed under the "bargain hunting" section, although I know it would never happen because of Pop's mancrush on Bonner, I think he'd be a great fit in the spurs' starting lineup, a real PF sized player who can space the floor and still play defense and rebound the basketball.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

No. Jefferson is a much better player.

[TDMVPDPOY]

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/Dapictuaman/untitled-1.jpg

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I know I know, trade Jefferson threads are a dime a dozen right now :wakeup

[TJastal]

No. Jefferson is a much better player.

In what way?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

In what way?

In basketball way.

[TJastal]

In basketball way.

You've convinced me.

[mountainballer]

agree with BG, Outlaw is very limited and even the RJ we all hate is better than Outlaw.
but I would still do the trade, at this point Outlaw might be the better fit, based on his defensive potential, especially defending perimeter PFs.
and some years back the Spurs were interested in trading for Outlaw, they might still see something there.

this one could be interesting:
would you trade for a package Outlaw+Farmar?
the role of Farmar was reduced when Williams arrived and Uzoh had some promising moments in the back up role. Nets might be willing to move Farmar as well. Farmar would give us the back up PG we need.
what would it take?
(yeah, I know the popular proposal would be RJ+Bonner for Outlaw+Farmar, but they don't do this. would they bite if Blair is included?)

[Bruno]

I would do a RJ for Outlaw mainly because Outlaw is younger. It wouldn't be a great trade so I still hope Spurs will be able to do something better with RJ's contract.

[024]

I'd take it and run.

[ChuckD]

No. Neither player is worth a shit, but you keep the shorter contract with the guy that knows your system, so you can rebuild in a year or two. Outlaw is too old and too overpaid to be a part of a rebuild. You'd only have to turn around and dump him again in a year or two, with multiple years still left on his contract. If he had two years left instead of four, I'd be all over it.

[outmap]

Would the Spurs do an Outlaw+Petro+2012 unprotected 1st round pick for RJ+Blair+2012 protected 1st round pick?

[Tyrone Jenkins]

No. Neither player is worth a shit, but you keep the shorter contract with the guy that knows your system, so you can rebuild in a year or two. Outlaw is too old and too overpaid to be a part of a rebuild. You'd only have to turn around and dump him again in a year or two, with multiple years still left on his contract. If he had two years left instead of four, I'd be all over it.

Amen.

Never take the risk on "hoping" a guy will be better at the same position w/ a longer contract.

[ohmwrecker]

I wanted the Spurs to pick up Outlaw as an FA last year, but that would have been in addition to RJ. Considering Outlaw's contract and his performance last season, it doesn't feel like a move that will improve the Spurs. Outlaw possesses the skills that RJ seems to lack, but doesn't cover RJ's efficiencies. As a tandem they would be good, but it's hard to choose one over the other and neither player has the killer instinct that the Spurs desperately need.

[ChuckD]

Would the Spurs do an Outlaw+Petro+2012 unprotected 1st round pick for RJ+Blair+2012 protected 1st round pick?

I don't think it matters what SA would do, as NJ would almost certainly NOT do that deal.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

I don't think it matters what SA would do, as NJ would almost certainly NOT do that deal.

Again, another very good quote.

For the life of me, I can't understand why so many Spurs fans - who obviously don't like RJ - think he'd be attractive to ANY other team in the league. The very reason he's unliked here are the same reasons keeping him here. Throwing in Blair won't make it a doable deal either. The Spurs already tried packaging him w/ the most tradeable asset they have - TP - and both are still on the team.

I doubt even Outlaw would be doable.

[Texas_Ranger]

yes!!

[DPG21920]

Anything, and I mean anything that involves moving RJ w/o moving one of the Big 3 is a yes for me.

Spurs fans shouldn't expect anything for an RJ trade straight up.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I wanted the Spurs to pick up Outlaw as an FA last year, but that would have been in addition to RJ. Considering Outlaw's contract and his performance last season, it doesn't feel like a move that will improve the Spurs. Outlaw possesses the skills that RJ seems to lack, but doesn't cover RJ's efficiencies. As a tandem they would be good, but it's hard to choose one over the other and neither player has the killer instinct that the Spurs desperately need.
lol refusing to give up on dick

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Anything, and I mean anything that involves moving RJ w/o moving one of the Big 3 is a yes for me.

Spurs fans shouldn't expect anything for an RJ trade straight up.

Question for you sir,

As far as your desire to maintain the Big 3 in SA for another year, is that due to hopes of winning a championship or primarily out of respect what they have brought to the city in the past?

[Big P]

I didn't want to start a new thread so I'll put this with the other SF talk....shame we couldn't trade for him.

Marc Stein: Word is Knicks/Spurs still hot for Casspi and checked in to see if they could wedge their way into last trade fun of 2010-11. But Cavs told 'em they traded for Casspi with intent to keep him. GM Chris Grant says Cavs have liked Casspi since Kings drafted him in 2009 Twitter

[MaNu4Tres]

I wanted the Spurs to pick up Outlaw as an FA last year, but that would have been in addition to RJ. Considering Outlaw's contract and his performance last season, it doesn't feel like a move that will improve the Spurs. Outlaw possesses the skills that RJ seems to lack, but doesn't cover RJ's efficiencies. As a tandem they would be good, but it's hard to choose one over the other and neither player has the killer instinct that the Spurs desperately need.

For as much as I'd like R.J gone, you are wrong here. The only skills Outlaw possesses that R.J does not is his horrid shot selection. On top of that, Outlaw is an overrated defender (due to his length and youth; many stereotype him into an adequate defender, which couldn't be more wrong).

Outlaw for Jefferson wouldn't improve the team whatsoever.

[ohmwrecker]

lol refusing to give up on dick

I am willing to give up RJ. I would just prefer that it improves the Spurs roster. Nothing in that quote denotes a refusal to give up RJ.


Outlaw for Jefferson wouldn't improve the team whatsoever.

That is exactly what I said.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Here's a NEW idea...

Why not change the style of offense that capitalizes on RJ's strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. I'm sure many don't realize that RJ was having a fairly decent regular season in that he shot 44% from the 3, 47% from the field and was healthy all season. He is a transition player (like a lot of SFs are)...

Since it doesn't look like the Spurs will be able to obtain the type of players they like (athletic, defense minded) outside of Leonard, why not play a more uptempo style. They tried it for the 1st half of the season and it worked.

Keep the team as it is, just change the mindset (and method of execution).

[ohmwrecker]

Here's a NEW idea...


It's not really a new idea. I have mentioned this before. Running an offense that caters to RJ's strengths is really the only way to keep him motivated, productive and interested in the other areas of the game. The problem arises with Pop's refusal to modify the system for one player at the detriment of the team philosophy. Which is understanble, if that is indeed the ultimate result. Although, a compromise should probably be explored if the Spurs find themselves stuck with RJ for another season.

[rascal]

Here's a NEW idea...

Why not change the style of offense that capitalizes on RJ's strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. I'm sure many don't realize that RJ was having a fairly decent regular season in that he shot 44% from the 3, 47% from the field and was healthy all season. He is a transition player (like a lot of SFs are)...

Since it doesn't look like the Spurs will be able to obtain the type of players they like (athletic, defense minded) outside of Leonard, why not play a more uptempo style. They tried it for the 1st half of the season and it worked.

Keep the team as it is, just change the mindset (and method of execution).

The Spurs would have to get rid of Pop for that to happen.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

The Spurs would have to get rid of Pop for that to happen.

Perhaps.

Good coaches can teach players how to play a specific system but are at the mercy of the players they have.

Great coaches can teach that system but have a better ability to find/obtain the players that fit their system better (via drafting/recruiting).

Elite coaches adapt their system to the players they have and WIN with it.

Pop is an Elite coach. He's already proven that he can adapt. He had the oldest team in the league and produced the 2nd best record.

I would've loved to see what the Spurs could've done w/ the team from the 1st 1/2 of the season - maybe next year we'll see...

[mountainballer]

For the life of me, I can't understand why so many Spurs fans - who obviously don't like RJ - think he'd be attractive to ANY other team in the league.

RJ isn't the ONLY big contract for an underachieving player out there. almost every team has it's RJ. you can always talk about swapping such contracts and hope that the player you get back turns out to be a better fit. doesn't work out that way very often though.

[DMC]

I don't care about trades that don't make us contenders for the title. If you just want to see different faces, trade anyone for anyone.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

From 2004-09, the 5 seasons before RJ got to SA, he was averaging about 19-20ppg. He shows up, his pic is on the front page of the paper and EVERYONE is happy.

Then, he gets put into the system and is the 4th option (when he used to be the 1st). Also, he's asked to play defense which he was never really all that good at and certainly doesn't want to do. But he accepts his role and tries to become more of the type of SF that the Spurs needs. But, it just isn't in him.

All the while, he didn't really complain. He accepts responsibility for his play or lack thereof. He isn't hurt often (has played at least 80 games a yr since arrival) and at least does offer some excitement and scoring - albeit not as much as hoped for. He even opted out of a huge contract and took less per year to help the team out salary cap wise.

Does RJ suck outright? Hell no. On another team, he's a 16-18 ppg player still. But he's like trying to use a running back (offense minded) and the Spurs want him to play free safety (defense minded) - he has the size, speed and physical attributes but lacks the specific athletism and mentality altogether.

The Spurs just drafted a free safety in Leonard - this may allow RJ to play a lil more running back next year.

[MaNu4Tres]

It's not really a new idea. I have mentioned this before. Running an offense that caters to RJ's strengths is really the only way to keep him motivated, productive and interested in the other areas of the game. The problem arises with Pop's refusal to modify the system for one player at the detriment of the team philosophy. Which is understanble, if that is indeed the ultimate result. Although, a compromise should probably be explored if the Spurs find themselves stuck with RJ for another season.

That "offense" in the first half of last season had more to do with the back-court's defense more than anything else.

In the beginning of last year, the Spurs were able to push the ball more in transition for quick/efficient opportunities due to back-court/wings playing at a very high/active level on the defensive end. They did this by having very active hands in passing lanes, forcing turnovers with steals and deflections (pretty sure Parker had more steals 20 games into last year than he had the entire previous season). I had never seen Parker that active on the defensive end. Unfortunately that didn't last, as his defense (along with many others) regressed significantly as the season wore on (fatigue from an 82-game season?).

As many of you know, the less blocks, steals and deflections the team has, the less opportunities the teams has to actually run against favorable numbers (2 on 1;3 on 2; 4 on 3). Which Spurs did more often in the first half of last season than they've had in recent years. This was the outcome to the active defense the perimeter players provided off the ball and in the passing lanes. IMO

The Spurs can't run a run and gun style offense if they are always taking the ball out after the opposition converts a field goal. At the same time, they don't have the personnel for an efficient fast pace style when taking the ball out from under the hoop.

If you are trying to develop a run and gun/fast pace style (that wins games) , a very versatile pick and roll big man that attracts attention in rolling athletically to the hoop and pick/popping is vital. This kind of player can set picks early in the clock and attracts all kinds of attention rolling to the basket or stepping out for a jumper. Defensive players off the ball leave their man so early in trying to impede this versatile four getting to the hoop that it leaves wide open avenues for the off-the ball offensive players early and often--giving the team quick efficient looks.

That is why the Suns (w/Amare) were able to run such a fast pace/efficient winning style without getting stops. Now the Suns don't run an effective style even with Nash. They didn't even make the playoffs last year (that tells you how important it is to have an Amare type player for this style to actually win a large amount of games).

The Spurs don't have that. Therefore, in order to tailor to R.J's strengths or to push up the pace effectively and efficiently-- they will have to improve their defense in every phase they can (which they're trying to do personnel-wise) to give them more efficient opportunities in transition or early in the shot clock.IMO

[mountainballer]

He even opted out of a huge contract and took less per year to help the team out salary cap wise.


I hear your reasons and somehow agree, but this point is nonsense. he left 15 million on the table and got back 39 million in guaranteed money. he knew very well, that in 2011 he will have a hard time to find a team that offers him 24 million guaranteed money. and this doesn't even consider a possible lock out.
so yes, it helped the Spurs short term that he opted out, but it was a very good deal for RJ in the long run and for sure "help the team" wasn't the major reason to do so.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

I hear your reasons and somehow agree, but this point is nonsense. he left 15 million on the table and got back 39 million in guaranteed money. he knew very well, that in 2011 he will have a hard time to find a team that offers him 24 million guaranteed money. and this doesn't even consider a possible lock out.
so yes, it helped the Spurs short term that he opted out, but it was a very good deal for RJ in the long run and for sure "help the team" wasn't the major reason to do so.

Yes, that is very true - win win situation. But in order for that to happen, he had to 1st trust that the Spurs would do what they said they would, then he had to opt out of a $15 million salary year.

[maddnezz]

From 2004-09, the 5 seasons before RJ got to SA, he was averaging about 19-20ppg. He shows up, his pic is on the front page of the paper and EVERYONE is happy.

Then, he gets put into the system and is the 4th option (when he used to be the 1st). Also, he's asked to play defense which he was never really all that good at and certainly doesn't want to do. But he accepts his role and tries to become more of the type of SF that the Spurs needs. But, it just isn't in him.

All the while, he didn't really complain. He accepts responsibility for his play or lack thereof. He isn't hurt often (has played at least 80 games a yr since arrival) and at least does offer some excitement and scoring - albeit not as much as hoped for. He even opted out of a huge contract and took less per year to help the team out salary cap wise.

Does RJ suck outright? Hell no. On another team, he's a 16-18 ppg player still. But he's like trying to use a running back (offense minded) and the Spurs want him to play free safety (defense minded) - he has the size, speed and physical attributes but lacks the specific athletism and mentality altogether.

The Spurs just drafted a free safety in Leonard - this may allow RJ to play a lil more running back next year.this!

[Tyrone Jenkins]

@MaNu - very good assessment.

[maddnezz]

That "offense" in the first half of last season had more to do with the back-court's defense more than anything else.

In the beginning of last year, the Spurs were able to push the ball more in transition for quick/efficient opportunities due to back-court/wings playing at a very high/active level on the defensive end. They did this by having very active hands in passing lanes, forcing turnovers with steals and deflections (pretty sure Parker had more steals 20 games into last year than he had the entire previous season). I had never seen Parker that active on the defensive end. Unfortunately that didn't last, as his defense (along with many others) regressed significantly as the season wore on (fatigue from an 82-game season?).

As many of you know, the less blocks, steals and deflections the team has, the less opportunities the teams has to actually run against favorable numbers (2 on 1;3 on 2; 4 on 3). Which Spurs did more often in the first half of last season than they've had in recent years. This was the outcome to the active defense the perimeter players provided off the ball and in the passing lanes. IMO

The Spurs can't run a run and gun style offense if they are always taking the ball out after the opposition converts a field goal. At the same time, they don't have the personnel for an efficient fast pace style when taking the ball out from under the hoop.

If you are trying to develop a run and gun/fast pace style (that wins games) , a very versatile pick and roll big man that attracts attention in rolling athletically to the hoop and pick/popping is vital. This kind of player can set picks early in the clock and attracts all kinds of attention rolling to the basket or stepping out for a jumper. Defensive players off the ball leave their man so early in trying to impede this versatile four getting to the hoop that it leaves wide open avenues for the off-the ball offensive players early and often--giving the team quick efficient looks.

That is why the Suns (w/Amare) were able to run such a fast pace/efficient winning style without getting stops. Now the Suns don't run an effective style even with Nash. They didn't even make the playoffs last year (that tells you how important it is to have an Amare type player for this style to actually win a large amount of games).

The Spurs don't have that. Therefore, in order to tailor to R.J's strengths or to push up the pace effectively and efficiently-- they will have to improve their defense in every phase they can to give them more efficient opportunities in transition or early in the shot clock.IMOAnd this! great post.
all the complaining about trading rj gets very annoying just relax and be a fan. Your trade scenarios are getting old. Pop and coaching staffs job is to fix the Spurs d and o, your job is to wait and see, you want to trade someone send your resume in to the Spurs, Rj aint goin nowhere notime soon, deal with it.:lol

[Tyrone Jenkins]

And this! great post.
all the complaining about trading rj gets very annoying just relax and be a fan. Your trade scenarios are getting old. Pop and coaching staffs job is to fix the Spurs d and o, your job is to wait and see, you want to trade someone send your resume in to the Spurs, Rj aint goin nowhere notime soon, deal with it.:lol

While I think you are 100% correct, it doesn't mean the FO shouldn't try.

There are many other teams that RJ would do much better in - Suns, Clippers, Golden State, New Orleans, Orlando...many others. Some have SFs of their own, others don't want to take the risk on RJ. Regardless, almost all players want to be in systems which THEY are featured and RJ is no different.

TP, in somewhat the same fashion, really seems to be like a better fit elsewhere. LA, NY, Chicago - some major city (he'd be REALLY good on the Heat). But, out of loyalty and love for the city, he doesn't cause a ruckus about being traded when the Spurs are clearly in decline - save a couple of mistimed quotes.

My whole point is that the Big 3 has about 2% chance of realistically winning a championship. And, given those chances, I'm not all for putting up a good fight or having a great regular season record or even losing in the Western Conf finals. I want to see them in the FINALS.

Honestly, what good is having the Big 3 intact for another year only to lose early in the Playoffs and be that much further away from contending in the future.

So, why not trade TP to better pastures for a younger big man and/or draft picks? What about a different style of offense? How about keeping everything the way it is, just play/start the younger players to see what we got?

Viva Los Spurs in 2016.

[Chomag]

Any Fool can see that RJ isn't the worst player in the NBA, but the product you get for 30 mil I think is what everyone has a huge problem with.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

TP, Splitter and McDyess to Atlanta for Al Horford and Kirk Heinrich (that should be its own thread)...

[DPG21920]

The point it is, and it's less "tangible", is that RJ is clearly a drain on the team's morale, the coach and overall style of play. He drags everything down, he's mentally soft and he sticks out like a sore thumb. While he may have more talent than someone else they get back in a trade in a bubble, it doesn't matter. He has to go.

Seeing him take the court again would be a completely deflating issue for the team and the fans.

[Dex]

I would do this just because I feel about Jefferson the exact same way I feel about Bonner. I simply don't want to see either one on the floor as a Spur anymore. I don't want to see if they can change their game, or do better next year. I don't even want them to have a chance (at least, not in this orgo).

In fact, I'm afraid that they will do the exact same thing they did this season, which is show up for the first part of the regular season to engrave themselves into the rotation, then they quickly revert back to the perennial playoff pussies that we have all come to expect.

Outlaw may or may not be a change for the better, but at least I wouldn't feel like I was watching the same crappy movie over again. As for Bonner, pretty sure a sequel is already being planned for next spring. :depressed

[ChuckD]

I'd be happy to ship out RJ for a bag of chips, as long as the bag of chips didn't have 4 years left on it's contract. Seriously, an ending contract would do it for me. I just don't think Outlaw is anything but a different, more long term problem.

[ace3g]

I'd do this trade mainly for a couple reasons:

1. It would be nice to have a 6'9 SF that can play multiple positions.

2. Change of pace for both RJ & Outlaw (hopefully with the change in environment, Outlaw can develop some defensive fundamentals; never really been on a defensive first style team).

3. Although some would not agree, entering next season (whenever that is) RJ would be the starter at SF, with this trade Outlaw wouldn't be guaranteed that spot. It would create some healthy competition for the spot.

[romain.star]

I'd trade RJ contract for a bag of stones

[DesignatedT]

I would do it. Although Outlaw is probably just as limited offensively as RJ and wouldn't hit the 3 as effective as RJ either, he definitely brings more of a toughness and is better all around defensively. Wouldn't be much of an upgrade but worth it.

[DesignatedT]

I'd trade RJ contract for a bag of stones

Yeah, no shit. Trading RJ for nothing would be a better trade then trading him for Outlaw.

Question is would you trade him for Outlaw (pretty much the same contract give or take). Anyone would trade him in a salary dump.

[Interrohater]

Nice sig, Ace. I didn't understand the 'human avatar' nickname until I saw that pic. That's a ridiculous wingspan and his hands are like tennis racquets

[CGD]

Pass on Outlaw. Plus, we already drafted a much better version of him in Leonard.

[joshdaboss]

Jefferson wipes his fucking ass with Travis Outlaw. Give me a break. Travis Outlaw's contract last year was the laughing stock of the league.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Jefferson wipes his fucking ass with Travis Outlaw. Give me a break. Travis Outlaw's contract last year was the laughing stock of the league after Jefferson's.

[Bruno]

RJ is 31 years old and has $30.5M/3 years left on his contract.
Outlaw is 27 years old and has $28M/4 years left on his contract.

No need to say more.

[angelbelow]

Dont think the contracts match? T-Out is making the MLE IIRC.

[Cessation]

What's the point of having a running offence, if in the playoffs halfcourt would dominate. Assuming your goal is to be a title contender, and not just a regular season champ.

[benefactor]

I would do this just because I feel about Jefferson the exact same way I feel about Bonner. I simply don't want to see either one on the floor as a Spur anymore. I don't want to see if they can change their game, or do better next year. I don't even want them to have a chance (at least, not in this orgo).

In fact, I'm afraid that they will do the exact same thing they did this season, which is show up for the first part of the regular season to engrave themselves into the rotation, then they quickly revert back to the perennial playoff pussies that we have all come to expect.

Outlaw may or may not be a change for the better, but at least I wouldn't feel like I was watching the same crappy movie over again. As for Bonner, pretty sure a sequel is already being planned for next spring. :depressed
You sir are correct...in every way.

RJ is 31 years old and has $30.5M/3 years left on his contract.
Outlaw is 27 years old and has $28M/4 years left on his contract.

No need to say more.
Outlaw's contract is also a flat structure. Those types of contracts are much easier to move if the Spurs want to get out from under him after next season.

[joshdaboss]

Pass on Outlaw. Plus, we already drafted a much better version of him in Leonard.

lol Awful, absolutely awful comparison, tbh.

[DirkDoesWork]

If I were a Spurs fan, I'd be willing to trade Dick and his horrible contract for just about any breathing SF.

[ChuckD]

You sir are correct...in every way.

Outlaw's contract is also a flat structure. Those types of contracts are much easier to move if the Spurs want to get out from under him after next season.

If the NBA puts in a hard cap, both contracts will be radioactive beyond belief. I'll take 3 years over 4, in that case.

[benefactor]

True...but I won't actually believe a hard cap is happening until the ink is dry on the paper.

[ChuckD]

True...but I won't actually believe a hard cap is happening until the ink is dry on the paper.

You realize that the owners pulled all of their offers, and are back to the $45M hard cap now, didn't you? It happened when the lockout did.

[benefactor]

And? That means nothing. That's what you do when you play hard ball in negotiations. The NBA will lose a whole season before the players agree to a hard cap...especially one that low. They will meet in the middle somewhere.

[mountainballer]

If the NBA puts in a hard cap, both contracts will be radioactive beyond belief. I'll take 3 years over 4, in that case.

if they put in a hard cap, there will be a multiple years procedure that considers those contracts. it will be in the interest of most of the owners as well (it's in the interest of the players anyhow), they are not interested in taking away any flexibility for 3 or 4 yeas from the teams that currently have several long term contracts.
so the question, if Outlaw has one more years on his contract isn't the major issue IMO. the question, if he is a player the Spurs should want at all, that's the point. he likely isn't and fans might hate him more than RJ soon. however, such a trade scenario can still be rated as "realistic" when it comes to the question, if the other team would do it. (as opposed to 99% of the ST trade proposals)

[TJastal]

I hear your reasons and somehow agree, but this point is nonsense. he left 15 million on the table and got back 39 million in guaranteed money. he knew very well, that in 2011 he will have a hard time to find a team that offers him 24 million guaranteed money. and this doesn't even consider a possible lock out.
so yes, it helped the Spurs short term that he opted out, but it was a very good deal for RJ in the long run and for sure "help the team" wasn't the major reason to do so.

Most of his "points" have been complete bunk.. Like calling Pop an "Elite" coach because the spurs were the oldest team in the league.

Makes for entertaining reading nonetheless.

[ChuckD]

And? That means nothing. That's what you do when you play hard ball in negotiations. The NBA will lose a whole season before the players agree to a hard cap...especially one that low. They will meet in the middle somewhere.

A lot of folks think there will be a lost season. Once the players are locked out, the owners have the position of strength. Their expenses are very low, and there are 20-something of them who feel it's better not to do business at all than to continue under the current runaway soft cap model.

[Agloco]

I don't care about trades that don't make us contenders for the title. If you just want to see different faces, trade anyone for anyone.

I agree here. The problem is that the "trade Dicky-J" camp doesn't understand that there is no trade involving Jefferson that will turn us into contenders. Not one.


While I think you are 100% correct, it doesn't mean the FO shouldn't try.

There are many other teams that RJ would do much better in - Suns, Clippers, Golden State, New Orleans, Orlando...many others. Some have SFs of their own, others don't want to take the risk on RJ. Regardless, almost all players want to be in systems which THEY are featured and RJ is no different.

TP, in somewhat the same fashion, really seems to be like a better fit elsewhere. LA, NY, Chicago - some major city (he'd be REALLY good on the Heat). But, out of loyalty and love for the city, he doesn't cause a ruckus about being traded when the Spurs are clearly in decline - save a couple of mistimed quotes.

My whole point is that the Big 3 has about 2% chance of realistically winning a championship. And, given those chances, I'm not all for putting up a good fight or having a great regular season record or even losing in the Western Conf finals. I want to see them in the FINALS.

Honestly, what good is having the Big 3 intact for another year only to lose early in the Playoffs and be that much further away from contending in the future.

So, why not trade TP to better pastures for a younger big man and/or draft picks? What about a different style of offense? How about keeping everything the way it is, just play/start the younger players to see what we got?

Viva Los Spurs in 2016.

Good thoughts, but see my post above. You can apply that rule to TP as well.

I don't think a big 2 with or without RJ wins anything tbh. The Spurs are simply looking to soften the landing after Timmy and Manu walk away.

[benefactor]

A lot of folks think there will be a lost season. Once the players are locked out, the owners have the position of strength. Their expenses are very low, and there are 20-something of them who feel it's better not to do business at all than to continue under the current runaway soft cap model.
The door swings both ways...it's not like the players are broke or will hurt for money by losing a season. I think it's much more even than you think...but this is a discussion for another thread.

No matter what happens with the lockout, Outlaw's contract is easier on the Spurs even though it's a year longer. Not only is it cheaper overall, but the Spurs would save quite a bit of money in each of the remaining years that would have run the course of RJ's contract...2.3 million next season, 3.1 million in '12-'13 and 4 million in '13-'14. If the hard cap is coming as you say it is, those numbers become much bigger than they were in the soft cap days.

[CaptainLate]

Outlaw for Jefferson wouldn't improve the team whatsoever.

Disagree. It's called addition by subtraction. RJ is taking up a youngster's minutes.

Most people thought he would be a good fit. Hell, when the trade happened, Dick Vitale was saying "give next season's title to the Spurs". He wasn't even a good fit in year #2 with the team, when almost everyone else we've brought onboard has "gotten it" by that time. He even had a summer of tutelage under Pop.

It's time to cut our losses. Get anything in return...and trade TP to a 2021 lottery team.

[Avitus1]

I'd trade RJ for pretty much anything at this point. The dude is over paid and sucks.

[urunobili]

I have wanted Outlaw in the Spurs for like 3, 4 years. I would welcome this.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Disagree. It's called addition by subtraction. RJ is taking up a youngster's minutes.

Bingo. RJ just hurts the team plain and simple. He's useless, and like Bonner he was getting too many minutes. I would love to have Leonard force fed minutes to begin the season along with Splitter.

I know RJ barely played in Game 6 against the Grizz, so obviously the Spurs want to get rid of him. I think we'd have a better chance of getting rid of RJ via amnesty, but I don't know if Holt would be willing to go that route.

[Spurologist]

I have wanted Outlaw in the Spurs for like 3, 4 years. I would welcome this.

[joshdaboss]

Disagree. It's called addition by subtraction. RJ is taking up a youngster's minutes.

Most people thought he would be a good fit. Hell, when the trade happened, Dick Vitale was saying "give next season's title to the Spurs". He wasn't even a good fit in year #2 with the team, when almost everyone else we've brought onboard has "gotten it" by that time. He even had a summer of tutelage under Pop.

It's time to cut our losses. Get anything in return...and trade TP to a 2021 lottery team.

I was one of the few people who cautioned that the Jefferson signing wasn't a great one. That being said, I give Jefferson all of the props in the world for his season last year. Popobitch threatened to completely ruin this guy. He's made Jefferson completely change his game and hasn't done anything to help him at all. Jefferson has never been strictly a spotup shooter, and that's what he's been made to be. Last year, he completely changed his game and did that great. I give him major props for that.

Did he have a bad playoffs? Absolutely. Is he entirely to blame for that? Absolutely not. Popobitch going into panic mode, changing rotations and giving players sporadic minutes is mostly to blame. I don't care if you're a YMCA player or an NBA player, nobody can be expected to perform in that situation.

[Cessation]

I was one of the few people who cautioned that the Jefferson signing wasn't a great one. That being said, I give Jefferson all of the props in the world for his season last year. Popobitch threatened to completely ruin this guy. He's made Jefferson completely change his game and hasn't done anything to help him at all. Jefferson has never been strictly a spotup shooter, and that's what he's been made to be. Last year, he completely changed his game and did that great. I give him major props for that.

Did he have a bad playoffs? Absolutely. Is he entirely to blame for that? Absolutely not. Popobitch going into panic mode, changing rotations and giving players sporadic minutes is mostly to blame. I don't care if you're a YMCA player or an NBA player, nobody can be expected to perform in that situation.

I agree that bonner is way worse for the team than dick, who gets some underserving critisism. It was the spurs frontline that got killed in the playloffs, led by bonners 20 min/game. When spurs were peaking rj was one of the major reasons why. While ginger, even when shooting well, still was giving up points on the defensive end. Also his hot shooting nights usually happened with little pressure involved, when spurs were already up in the first half.

[The Truth #6]

A lot of folks think there will be a lost season. Once the players are locked out, the owners have the position of strength. Their expenses are very low, and there are 20-something of them who feel it's better not to do business at all than to continue under the current runaway soft cap model.

Yep. And since about zero of them had to pay for their arenas, it's not like they have to suffer from the overhead.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

I must admit, it is REALLY nice to be so critical of players who ended up w/ the best record in the Western Conference.

Whenver you get a chance, go to basketball-reference.com and look up the Spurs records. Bonner's 3 pt % last season ranks among the teams best ever. RJ shot 44% from the 3 as well.

Are they overpaid for their value - yes. Are they both a liability on defense - pretty much. But there are certainly much worse options the Spurs could have on their roster right now...

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I must admit, it is REALLY nice to be so critical of players who ended up w/ the best record in the Western Conference.

Whenver you get a chance, go to basketball-reference.com and look up the Spurs records. Bonner's 3 pt % last season ranks among the teams best ever. RJ shot 44% from the 3 as well.

Are they overpaid for their value - yes. Are they both a liability on defense - pretty much. But there are certainly much worse options the Spurs could have on their roster right now...

Sorry, but only the playoffs matter, hence why no one gave a shit when Horry used to mail in 9/10 of the season as long as he could hit the big shot when it mattered.

It'd be more interesting to look up Bonner's 3 point % against +.500 teams as well as the playoffs (both stats would most likely have him shooting less than 35% from outside I'm sure).

RJ was so bad that one of the highest paid players on the team couldn't even find minutes in the most crucial game of the playoffs from a coach who loves overplaying average players or simply playing them out of position.

I would have no problem over looking both Bonner and RJ's lack of D if their O was making up for the difference. Gary Neal is arguably the only Spurs outside of the big 3 who's strong offense compensates for the games where his D isn't up to par. With Bonner and RJ, if they aren't hitting their shots, they're useless. They aren't good at anything else to make up for how badly they choke come playoff time.

[MaNu4Tres]

Sorry, but only the playoffs matter, hence why no one gave a shit when Horry used to mail in 9/10 of the season as long as he could hit the big shot when it mattered.

It'd be more interesting to look up Bonner's 3 point % against +.500 teams as well as the playoffs (both stats would most likely have him shooting less than 35% from outside I'm sure).

RJ was so bad that one of the highest paid players on the team couldn't even find minutes in the most crucial game of the playoffs from a coach who loves overplaying average players or simply playing them out of position.

I would have no problem over looking both Bonner and RJ's lack of D if their O was making up for the difference. Gary Neal is arguably the only Spurs outside of the big 3 who's strong offense compensates for the games where his D isn't up to par. With Bonner and RJ, if they aren't hitting their shots, they're useless. They aren't good at anything else to make up for how badly they choke come playoff time.

Spurs had too many players playing bad from Parker all the way down to Blair.

Yes Bonner and R.J did bad, but to fault them and not the others is pretty foolish.


Players who played bad in the playoffs:

Parker- Was a total no show in the first 3 playoff games.

Jefferson- 35% 3pt. 37 % from the field-- Total no show the last 4 games.

Blair- 7/21 from the field in first 4 games and only had 13 rebounds in the whole series (51 minutes total). Never saw minute after game 4-- Grizzlies' size was a nice slice of humble pie for DeJuan.

Hill- 27% from 3- 40% from the field. His shooting percentages took a huge dip, which effected the Spurs overall offensive efficiency and was eating up on the defensive end by Allen, Conley, Vasquez and Young.

Neal -26% from 3- 37% from the field. Read above.

Bonner- 33% from 3- Was abused in the paint every damn game. Read last sentence of Blair's assessment.

McDyess- 41% from the field- Like Hill, Neal and the rest of the gang, McDyess' shot (mid-range) was very inconsistent. Can't complain about his defense, which was much better than Bonner/Blair.

Factor in Manu's game 1 absence and his broken arm, along with Tim's ineffectiveness on the block offensively and the Spurs, as a team, had no chance.

As you can see it wasn't just R.J and Bonner.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Spurs had too many players playing bad from Parker all the way down to Blair.

Yes Bonner and R.J did bad, but to fault them and not the others is pretty foolish.


Players who played bad in the playoffs:

Parker- Was a total no show in the first 3 playoff games.

Jefferson- 35% 3pt. 37 % from the field-- Total no show the last 4 games.

Blair- 7/21 from the field in first 4 games and only had 13 rebounds in the whole series (51 minutes total). Never saw minute after game 4-- Grizzlies' size was a nice slice of humble pie for DeJuan.

Hill- 27% from 3- 40% from the field. His shooting percentages took a huge dip, which effected the Spurs overall offensive efficiency and was eating up on the defensive end by Allen, Conley, Vasquez and Young.

Neal -26% from 3- 37% from the field. Read above.

Bonner- 33% from 3- Was abused in the paint every damn game. Read last sentence of Blair's assessment.

McDyess- 41% from the field- Like Hill, Neal and the rest of the gang, McDyess' shot (mid-range) was very inconsistent. Can't complain about his defense, which was much better than Bonner/Blair.

Factor in Manu's game 1 absence and his broken arm, along with Tim's ineffectiveness on the block offensively and the Spurs, as a team, had no chance.

As you can see it wasn't just R.J and Bonner.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but outside of Game 2 against Dallas in the '10 playoffs, RJ has been horrible for the Spurs, and Bonner might be one of the worst playoff performers in Spurs history.

Neal, Parker, and Hill have at least had good series for the Spurs in seasons prior. Parker sucked, but he's done too much for the franchise to trade him merely for being poor against the Grizz. RJ and Bonner are just terrible playoff performers period. I also wouldn't be against shipping out Blair, and I'd rather the Spurs use Dice's contract to get another big in return as oppose to bringing Dice back who has just about zilch left in the tank.
Hill is already gone.

I don't think the Spurs were gonna beat the Grizz anyway, but it has to start with cutting out the dead weight. RJ and Bonner top that list by a mile.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

agree with BG, Outlaw is very limited and even the RJ we all hate is better than Outlaw.
but I would still do the trade, at this point Outlaw might be the better fit, based on his defensive potential, especially defending perimeter PFs.
and some years back the Spurs were interested in trading for Outlaw, they might still see something there.

this one could be interesting:
would you trade for a package Outlaw+Farmar?
the role of Farmar was reduced when Williams arrived and Uzoh had some promising moments in the back up role. Nets might be willing to move Farmar as well. Farmar would give us the back up PG we need.
what would it take?
(yeah, I know the popular proposal would be RJ+Bonner for Outlaw+Farmar, but they don't do this. would they bite if Blair is included?)

:tu I like your Farmar idea, although I doubt it will happen.


Anything, and I mean anything that involves moving RJ w/o moving one of the Big 3 is a yes for me.

Spurs fans shouldn't expect anything for an RJ trade straight up.

I agree.We shouldn't move the Big 3 just to dump RJ.

And yeah, everyone knows we want rid of RJ and he's on a horrible contract, so we have to come out the loser in some way on any trade to get rid of him. I think taking a chance on Outlaw fitting (the guy has length, athleticism, occasional streak shooting, hustle - he could thrive here) isn't much of a loss. Also, Outlaw's contract is 7m for 3yrs, RJ's 9-11m for 3yrs: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_jersey.htm

I think we'd do ourselves a service to give Outlaw a try.


I didn't want to start a new thread so I'll put this with the other SF talk....shame we couldn't trade for him.

Marc Stein: Word is Knicks/Spurs still hot for Casspi and checked in to see if they could wedge their way into last trade fun of 2010-11. But Cavs told 'em they traded for Casspi with intent to keep him. GM Chris Grant says Cavs have liked Casspi since Kings drafted him in 2009 Twitter

Love Casspi, have said so for ages. He'd be great as a Spur.

[jesterbobman]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but outside of Game 2 against Dallas in the '10 playoffs, RJ has been horrible for the Spurs, and Bonner might be one of the worst playoff performers in Spurs history.

Neal, Parker, and Hill have at least had good series for the Spurs in seasons prior. Parker sucked, but he's done too much for the franchise to trade him merely for being poor against the Grizz. RJ and Bonner are just terrible playoff performers period. I also wouldn't be against shipping out Blair, and I'd rather the Spurs use Dice's contract to get another big in return as oppose to bringing Dice back who has just about zilch left in the tank.
Hill is already gone.

I don't think the Spurs were gonna beat the Grizz anyway, but it has to start with cutting out the dead weight. RJ and Bonner top that list by a mile.

I must have missed that.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Spurs had too many players playing bad from Parker all the way down to Blair.

Yes Bonner and R.J did bad, but to fault them and not the others is pretty foolish.


Players who played bad in the playoffs:

Parker- Was a total no show in the first 3 playoff games.

Jefferson- 35% 3pt. 37 % from the field-- Total no show the last 4 games.

Blair- 7/21 from the field in first 4 games and only had 13 rebounds in the whole series (51 minutes total). Never saw minute after game 4-- Grizzlies' size was a nice slice of humble pie for DeJuan.

Hill- 27% from 3- 40% from the field. His shooting percentages took a huge dip, which effected the Spurs overall offensive efficiency and was eating up on the defensive end by Allen, Conley, Vasquez and Young.

Neal -26% from 3- 37% from the field. Read above.

Bonner- 33% from 3- Was abused in the paint every damn game. Read last sentence of Blair's assessment.

McDyess- 41% from the field- Like Hill, Neal and the rest of the gang, McDyess' shot (mid-range) was very inconsistent. Can't complain about his defense, which was much better than Bonner/Blair.

Factor in Manu's game 1 absence and his broken arm, along with Tim's ineffectiveness on the block offensively and the Spurs, as a team, had no chance.

As you can see it wasn't just R.J and Bonner.

Exactly. The Spurs as a TEAM played badly. You can't coach shooting during a game - that's something that is generally worked on during the off-season.

Let's be real here. Pop isn't the problem. RJ and Bonner aren't the complete problem. Hill, Neal, TD or Blair aren't either. It's the combination of folks playing badly that are. IF the Spurs had Deron Williams at the pt, Ray Allen at SG, Kevin Durant at the 3, Josh Smith at the 4 and Dwight Howard at center and they all played badly and lost, who's fault is it?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Are they overpaid for their value - yes. Are they both a liability on defense - pretty much. But there are certainly much worse options the Spurs could have on their roster right now...

Agreed. While both of them obviously should have played better against the Grizz, they were never going to be difference makers on this team. Nor should they ever be expected to be.

Truth is Tim Duncan was outplayed, something that arguably had never happened before in a whole playoff series. Tony hit rock bottom form at the wrong time and Manu had a broken arm. It all starts and ends with the big three. Expecting from RJ and Bonner to be difference makers in a playoff series is unrealistic.

They are complimentary players, their game depends on the big 3's.They play well when the big 3 play well. If Duncan does not require double teams then they obviously will not be getting the open shots they are supposed to be making. If Tony and Manu turn the ball over almost every time they try to push the tempo and RJ never gets it in his hands when he runs, it's not RJ's fault.

Did anyone really expect the big 3 to play as bad as they did against the Grizz and Bonner and RJ to somehow play above them and lift the team to success in the series? Really?

They're both good complimentary players, badly underrated.

[nickdaquick]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but outside of Game 2 against Dallas in the '10 playoffs, RJ has been horrible for the Spurs, and Bonner might be one of the worst playoff performers in Spurs history.

Neal, Parker, and Hill have at least had good series for the Spurs in seasons prior. Parker sucked, but he's done too much for the franchise to trade him merely for being poor against the Grizz. RJ and Bonner are just terrible playoff performers period. I also wouldn't be against shipping out Blair, and I'd rather the Spurs use Dice's contract to get another big in return as oppose to bringing Dice back who has just about zilch left in the tank.
Hill is already gone.

I don't think the Spurs were gonna beat the Grizz anyway, but it has to start with cutting out the dead weight. RJ and Bonner top that list by a mile.

What series was that? Not to say that I don't love Neal because I most certainly do (esp. with his game winner in game 5) but those percentages aren't too good. It was his first playoff experience so the moment may have been too big for him at the time. With all that said, I think the spurs win game 1 if Neal is in besides RJ for the final 3 points attempts.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I guess you can take Neal out of the equation of having a good series. And yes, the team played poorly, but if you guys could pick any 2 players to drop from the Spurs roster I'm sure Bonner and RJ would win by a landslide.

Think about why that's the case.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Expecting from RJ and Bonner to be difference makers in a playoff series is unrealistic.

They are complimentary players, their game depends on the big 3's.They play well when the big 3 play well. If Duncan does not require double teams then they obviously will not be getting the open shots they are supposed to be making. If Tony and Manu turn the ball over almost every time they try to push the tempo and RJ never gets it in his hands when he runs, it's not RJ's fault.

They're both good complimentary players, badly underrated.

All Bonner has to do is hit 2-3 threes a game. That's it. Everyone knows his D sucks and his rebounding is even worse. He can't even do that come playoff time. It's amazing that there are even a handful of people who still have faith in Bonner. The guy's nuts shrivel up come playoff time year in and year out. He plays like a deer in headlights.

RJ is the 2nd highest paid player on the team if I'm not mistaken. You don't give a $40M contract to a guy who isn't supposed to be a difference maker. I know it's unrealistic to expect RJ to average 16 points a game and I also agree that when the Spurs don't run, it's harder for RJ to make the most of his opportunities since his game works best in a run and gun offense. However, he spent all of last summer with Pop, rewarded with one of the most laughable contracts in the league, and played even worse than he did against Dallas last year, when him being the difference maker in Game 2 helped put that particular series back in our favor. He's just a horrible horrible fit for this team. I agree with the person who earlier said RJ would be much better suited for Orlando or Phoenix. I think unlike Bonner, Rj still has the skill set to be a decent player, just not with the Spurs.

As for TD not drawing double teams, he hasn't been able to draw doubles since 2008. No one expected the big 3 to play as poorly, that's a surprise for sure. But is anyone surprise at how badly Bonner and RJ have played? No, hence why people are so desperate to ship off RJ even knowing the Spurs will most likely get poor value in return. Bonner blows, but Pop loves him too much to trade him.

[Cane]

Imo Outlaw sucks ass and is a worse player and fit than RJ. But he is younger and has a smaller deal. Outlaw misses more games, has significantly less experience especially in the playoffs, is less versatile offensively, and doesn't make up for it on the defensive end to be worth it, imo. The few games that Outlaw played in the playoffs were pretty awful as well, at least looking at his averages and %'s.

[lurker23]

RJ is the 2nd highest paid player on the team if I'm not mistaken.

4th highest paid.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/spurs.jsp

[Agloco]

IF the Spurs had Deron Williams at the pt, Ray Allen at SG, Kevin Durant at the 3, Josh Smith at the 4 and Dwight Howard at center and they all played badly and lost, who's fault is it?

Pop

Signed,

-- TJastal and Fabbs

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Popabitch

Signed,

-- TJastal and Fabbs

tbh.

[jjktkk]

Pop

Signed,

-- TJastal and Fabbs

:lol. Don't forget obstructed view, and silverblk mystix.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Imo Outlaw sucks ass and is a worse player and fit than RJ. But he is younger and has a smaller deal. Outlaw misses more games, has significantly less experience especially in the playoffs, is less versatile offensively, and doesn't make up for it on the defensive end to be worth it, imo. The few games that Outlaw played in the playoffs were pretty awful as well, at least looking at his averages and %'s.

Outlaw is definitely worse than RJ, I don't doubt that for a second. But I feel like if that's what it takes to shed RJ's contract, you do it.

[ohmwrecker]

It would be cool to see the name "Outaw" on the back of a Spurs jersey.

[underdawg]

Pop

Signed,

-- TJastal and Fabbs

you've got to be kidding - players playing bad and the coach has no accountability? What is he there for - sarcastic remarks for press conferences?

Pop gambled on a flawed game plan and it blew up in his face - leaving him to scramble to get Tiago minutes. He might blame Manu's and Tim's injuries as main factors, but the move of Hill and RC's comments regarding moves show that behind closed doors the FO doesn't believe that the team was a contender as it was.

Pop's a good coach, but if you think the Spurs were prepared for the playoffs, you're kidding yourself.

[Uriel]

Richard Jefferson
11.0 pts, 1.3 ast, 3.8 rpg, 44% 3pt, 47.4% FG

Travis Outlaw
9.2 pts, 1.0 ast, 4.0 rpg, 30.2% 3pt, 37.5% FG

I think it's pretty clear RJ is the superior player, and his 44% from 3 which was among the league leaders in the NBA is the bread and butter of SF's in our system, something Outlaw simply cannot do. People talk about how bad a fit RJ is, but they fail to realize Outlaw could be even worse. Factor in the additional year in Outlaw's contract and I think anyone willing to trade RJ for Outlaw would only be willing to do so just for the sake of getting him off the team -- even if the trade-off is a downgrade -- which is, to be sure, a mistake.

[TJastal]

Richard Jefferson
11.0 pts, 1.3 ast, 3.8 rpg, 44% 3pt, 47.4% FG

Travis Outlaw
9.2 pts, 1.0 ast, 4.0 rpg, 30.2% 3pt, 37.5% FG

I think it's pretty clear RJ is the superior player, and his 44% from 3 which was among the league leaders in the NBA is the bread and butter of SF's in our system, something Outlaw simply cannot do. People talk about how bad a fit RJ is, but they fail to realize Outlaw could be even worse. Factor in the additional year in Outlaw's contract and I think anyone willing to trade RJ for Outlaw would only be willing to do so just for the sake of getting him off the team -- even if the trade-off is a downgrade -- which is, to be sure, a mistake.

C'mon brah look at the bigger picture already.

:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup

Outlaw played with the frickin nets last season, a team in turmoil and transition, of course his numbers were way off his reg season averages. He's had several seasons of hovering around 40% (from 3pt) and I am betting he would average even better numbers in a stable system like the spurs just as Jefferson has. Plus he's a better passer & defender and his nuts don't shrivel up in the playoffs.

As for the salaries, who gives a shit about the extra year. He's making almost nearly 3m less per year which not only gives the spurs some extra flexibility to sign other players, but also makes it significantly easier for them to use him as part of a trade package (if need be). There's nobody who is going to take RJ at his current rate.

[ChuckD]

C'mon brah look at the bigger picture already.

:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup

Outlaw played with the frickin nets last season, a team in turmoil and transition, of course his numbers were way off his reg season averages. He's had several seasons of hovering around 40% (from 3pt) and I am betting he would average even better numbers in a stable system like the spurs just as Jefferson has. Plus he's a better passer & defender and his nuts don't shrivel up in the playoffs.

As for the salaries, who gives a shit about the extra year. He's making almost nearly 3m less per year which not only gives the spurs some extra flexibility to sign other players, but also makes it significantly easier for them to use him as part of a trade package (if need be). There's nobody who is going to take RJ at his current rate.

I actually really do. His four year contract is WAY out of Duncan's playing days. At that point, we need to burn the fucker down to the ground and start over. You don't want any long duration bad MLE contracts on your books. If you use the OKC model, clearing those and keeping your cap clean allows you to swoop in and grab first round salary dumps like Maynor or Cook.

[TJastal]

I actually really do. His four year contract is WAY out of Duncan's playing days. At that point, we need to burn the fucker down to the ground and start over. You don't want any long duration bad MLE contracts on your books. If you use the OKC model, clearing those and keeping your cap clean allows you to swoop in and grab first round salary dumps like Maynor or Cook.

I guess you missed the point I made before about Outlaw's contract being easier to move, and especially the closer to the end it gets it doesn't continue to get bigger and bigger like Jefferson's

I guess I gotta explain everything to you twice.

[TJastal]

lmao whining about an extra year when Jefferson's bloated deadweight contract will be over 10 million in 2012 and 11+ mil in 2013 while Outlaw stays at a reasonable 7m ...

:lol :lol :lol

[Tyrone Jenkins]

lmao whining about an extra year when Jefferson's bloated deadweight contract will be over 10 million in 2012 and 11+ mil in 2013 while Outlaw stays at a reasonable 7m ...

:lol :lol :lol

I agree - you don't trade an AWFUL contract for one that slightly less AWFUL that's longer when you dont' know if the product will produce at the same rate. Let's not forget that RJ shot 44% from 3 for 2/3 of the season. I think a better objective would be to find a way to get RJ to play that way ALL season than to take a chance on Outlaw.

[mountainballer]

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/nets/talking_turkey_NxxD06BwQcIjWojU4q0MGO
Two unrestricted free agents, Denver's power forward/center Nene, and Detroit's small forward Tayshaun Prince, will be the Nets' prime targets when the lockout ends.


(yeah, it's the ny post, but I think this report is plausibly.)
why I posted this: I think it's somehow interesting if the Nets are going for a veteran SF like Prince.
this means they could as well be interested in RJ.
however, the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of bringing Outlaw in. question is, could there be another package from them that the Spurs would help? (Farmar+Petro for RJ ?)

[TJastal]

I agree - you don't trade an AWFUL contract for one that slightly less AWFUL that's longer when you dont' know if the product will produce at the same rate. Let's not forget that RJ shot 44% from 3 for 2/3 of the season. I think a better objective would be to find a way to get RJ to play that way ALL season than to take a chance on Outlaw.

So how do you plan on keeping RJ's nuts from shriveling up, 3rd string? Two years in a row now I'd have to start calling a pattern. And no, the spurs can't get Luke from the lakers so you'll have to think of something else.

[TJastal]

(yeah, it's the ny post, but I think this report is plausibly.)
why I posted this: I think it's somehow interesting if the Nets are going for a veteran SF like Prince.
this means they could as well be interested in RJ.
however, the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of bringing Outlaw in. question is, could there be another package from them that the Spurs would help? (Farmar+Petro for RJ ?)

Why would they be interested in taking on Jefferson's 3 more years of bloated 10m+ when they can probably sign Prince for probably half of that or less?

[Tyrone Jenkins]

So how do you plan on keeping RJ's nuts from shriveling up, 3rd string? Two years in a row now I'd have to start calling a pattern. And no, the spurs can't get Luke from the lakers so you'll have to think of something else.

Jastal (Mr. Never Played) you amaze me. My post was AGREEING with YOU . . . didn't you see that?

[ducks]

Exactly. The Spurs as a TEAM played badly. You can't coach shooting during a game - that's something that is generally worked on during the off-season.

Let's be real here. Pop isn't the problem. RJ and Bonner aren't the complete problem. Hill, Neal, TD or Blair aren't either. It's the combination of folks playing badly that are. IF the Spurs had Deron Williams at the pt, Ray Allen at SG, Kevin Durant at the 3, Josh Smith at the 4 and Dwight Howard at center and they all played badly and lost, who's fault is it?



so it is tp fault the other players could not hit shots


according to your logic the point guard makes the shots for the teamates

[Tyrone Jenkins]

so it is tp fault the other players could not hit shots


according to your logic the point guard makes the shots for the teamates

Where did I insinuate that?

[TJastal]

Jastal (Mr. Never Played) you amaze me. My post was AGREEING with YOU . . . didn't you see that?

You may think you agreed, but your point contradicted mine.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Well, I agree the fact that Outlaw for RJ isn't a good idea. If you agree w/ that, then we agree.

[benefactor]

Where did I insinuate that?
Don't respond to him...unless you think it's constructive in some way to argue with a mentally challenged person.

[benefactor]

I agree - you don't trade an AWFUL contract for one that slightly less AWFUL that's longer when you dont' know if the product will produce at the same rate. Let's not forget that RJ shot 44% from 3 for 2/3 of the season. I think a better objective would be to find a way to get RJ to play that way ALL season than to take a chance on Outlaw.
Don't you remember last summer? Pop worked one on one with him all summer...even going as far as taking him through very basic drills to try to get him straightened out. If that plus his new payday doesn't get him to be consistent then nothing will.

The need to move on outweighs any potential negatives Outlaw brings from a player standpoint. Don't forget that it saves the Spurs quite a bit of money over several seasons too.

[Bruno]

I don't see how a team could have trading for RJ as their first option. What could happen is that RJ could be an alternate plan after some failed try to get a better player. For example, Clippers could settle for RJ after failing to do a trade for Iguodala and to sign Tayshaun Prince.

It's quite sad to say that Spurs only hope to trade RJ is that a team got desperate but I fear it's the truth. It makes me want to puke to think at how Spurs put themselves in a deep hole by giving $50M to Bonnerson. :hang

[DPG21920]

I can't believe people ever tried to argue that giving players like RJ/Bonner a combined 50M was good.

[ChuckD]

Well, I agree the fact that Outlaw for RJ isn't a good idea. If you agree w/ that, then we agree.

He doesn't.

[joshdaboss]

I can't believe people ever tried to argue that giving players like RJ/Bonner a combined 50M was good.

lol @ throwing Bonner in.

lol @ the best 3 point shooter/stretch 4 in the NBA not worth his small contract.

[mountainballer]

lol @ the best 3 point shooter/stretch 4 in the NBA not worth his small contract.

Dirk is on a small contract?

[TJastal]

Dirk is on a small contract?

Don't get him started.

[Uriel]

C'mon brah look at the bigger picture already.

:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup:wakeup

Outlaw played with the frickin nets last season, a team in turmoil and transition, of course his numbers were way off his reg season averages. He's had several seasons of hovering around 40% (from 3pt) and I am betting he would average even better numbers in a stable system like the spurs just as Jefferson has. Plus he's a better passer & defender and his nuts don't shrivel up in the playoffs.

As for the salaries, who gives a shit about the extra year. He's making almost nearly 3m less per year which not only gives the spurs some extra flexibility to sign other players, but also makes it significantly easier for them to use him as part of a trade package (if need be). There's nobody who is going to take RJ at his current rate.

You better have some evidence to back up your claims.

And I'm getting tired of pointing out the logical fallacies and / or grammatical errors so pervasive in your posts.

[EricD]

Don't get him started.

Simple question TJ, Do you have a life outside of ST?

Seriously, you are on ST more than all the mods combined.

How sad. :toast

[TJastal]

You better have some evidence to back up your claims.

And I'm getting tired of pointing out the logical fallacies and / or grammatical errors so pervasive in your posts.

Evidence is easy to look up. Jefferson only shot 40% once before his breakout last year of 44%

Outlaw meanwhile has posted solid years in the past.

2004 40%
2007 40%
2008 38%
2008 39%

I don't think it's out of line to imagine him putting up 45% (just like RJ) in the spurs system where he'll have plenty of good open looks especially at the best 3 spot in basketball (corner 3).

[TJastal]

Simple question TJ, Do you have a life outside of ST?

Seriously, you are on ST more than all the mods combined.

How sad. :toast

lol exaggerate much? I work 40+ hours per week dude. I'm on here most mornings and that's it.

I seriously doubt I'm here 1/3 of the time Chumpdumper spends here. Why don't you go give him the 3rd degree, I'm sure he'll appreciate it, probably give you a sarcastic 1 liner. :lol

[ChuckD]

Evidence is easy to look up. Jefferson only shot 40% once before his breakout last year of 44%

Outlaw meanwhile has posted solid years in the past.

2004 40%
2007 40%
2008 38%
2008 39%

I don't think it's out of line to imagine him putting up 45% (just like RJ) in the spurs system where he'll have plenty of good open looks especially at the best 3 spot in basketball (corner 3).

So, they've both shot 40+% twice.

RJ career 36.5%
TO career 34.4%

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Looking at the Spurs draft philosophy, it's been either draft and stash or take BPA. Splitter is a good example of the former, Blair that latter. There's a reason why both those players lasted as long as they did - they were risky. The Spurs have been very fortunate taking risks so I tend to side w/ the FO whenever they do.

Which brings me to the Spurs trading philosophy - which has been just as risky (more risky than it should be). The Spurs actually got the better end of the deal in the RJ trade as the players they traded away are either retired or not too far from it. RJ was supposed to be a great scoring addition to the big three and quite possibly replace the scoring production of TD as he fades.

Now that the trade hasn't panned out, it's time for the FO to stop taking risks. Outlaw would be just that - a risky trade in that any deal that brings him here in place of RJ would most likely involve RJ and another complimentary piece (an RJ for Outlaw trade straight up has some appeal given that the contract situation for Outlaw is better but that's exactly the reason why a straight up trade isn't likely).

I think the FO has realized their loss in the deal and is doing whatever they can to mitigate short of trading a key piece. So, all this rhetoric about Outlaw and what he brings more than RJ...water under the bridge. He isn't significantly better offensively or defensively - essentially, he's the same player that's cheaper.

No need to speculate further...