Tony Parker and his Ceiling

[Brodels]

Maybe this is a topic better left for the offseason, but it's on my mind today.

We've seen Parker grow by leaps and bounds over the years. He's become a better leader, a solid floor general, and he can finish at the rim. He developed that floater and it's been deadly.

But my question is this:

Is Tony Parker currently about as good as he's going to get?

Sometimes I think so. And that's not a bad thing. He's a very good point guard for this team, and if he doesn't improve anymore, the Spurs are still in very good shape.

Here's my reasoning:

- Parker's game is built around his speed. He is successful because he can get into the lane with ease and because he knows what to do once he gets there. He's not going to get any faster than he is now. He can only get slower. That's not to say that he will, but the biggest factor in his success is not going to improve.

- We heard about Parker taking tons of jump shots in the offseason, but let's be frank: Tony isn't much better from the perimeter than he was when he came into the league. His three point shooting has regressed. He still doesn't hit jumpers with any type of consistency. He shoots a high percentage from the floor for a guard, but it's mostly because he takes so many shots close to the basket.

- He's become a better playmaker, but it's clear that he's never going to be among the game's great playmakers. He knows where he teammates are and he can get them the ball, but he still looks to score first. That's not a bad thing, but it's also not an area where we can expect a ton of improvement.

If his primary attribute (his speed) isn't going to improve, his playmaking is never going to be a primary strength, and his jumper is what it is, are we currently seeing the Tony Parker of the next six years?

The more I watch him, the more I think it's true. Many thought he would take that huge next step and be among the top two or three point guards in the league. I think he might stay in that next group, the just-under-superstar-and-franchise-guy point guard, the three through six kind of guys.

That's not a bad thing. The Spurs will do fine if Tony can continue to improve with the little things. He's a good point guard for this team. But is there a next big step for Tony? He's been in the league for a few years now. Is he beginning to level off?

[boutons]

"Is Tony Parker currently about as good as he's going to get?"

Physically, I think he is, because he just isn't a natural, co-ordinated athlete, demonstrated in his lack of fluidity, his poor FT and jump shooting (lack of coordination), his often clumsy layups, that look like a girl laying up off her wrong foot, that often having him stopping flat-footed under the basket to throw up a put-back type shot, rather than fluidly layiing up at the peak of his jump and following through his layup out of bounds the way, eg, Brent does.

Unless he totally breaks down his shot mechanics and starts over to obtain a shooting motion and hang-time like Steve Nash, Mike Bibby, Kobe, I think he will never be consistent outside shooter.

However, mentally, emotionally I think he can still go a long way in the non-physical aspects of his game, in his floor vision, general basketball smarts, his toughness, his feel for the flow of the game, his decisions, his ball distribution, his playmaking, ie, general game management. I think there will come a point where he will have the confidence of leader to chew out his teammates for screwing up the way Robert did to Devin in Game1.

[ducks]

he has chewed out bowen before for not getting on his man

[Brodels]

he has chewed out bowen before for not getting on his man

Alright Ducks, you're one of my favorite posters and one funny mofo, but what the hell does Parker yelling at Bowen have to do with this thread?

Maybe I'm just not good at speaking ducks.

[ducks]

I think there will come a point where he will have the confidence of leader to chew out his teammates for screwing up the way Robert did to Devin in Game1. boutons


so I pointed out he does it already

[RobinsontoDuncan]

so I pointed out he does it already


did you just get....... DUCK3D? Lmao :owned :lmao :lmao :lmao

[orhe]

:) nice ducks...
i don't know i guess TP has a lot of room for improvement...
His Jump shot needs a lot of work and i think that would improve as he gets older, but his penetration is what we need from him.

w/ his speed Parker has a pretty easy time to penetrate... against the first line of defense. but what happens when team focuses their 2nd and third defenders on you? From what i've seen TP has dramatically improved on this aspect of his game. Last year when the lakers clogged the lane he still forced stuff and that really hurt his confidence and our team. But this year he's finding ways to contribute (well give the ball to TD) when someone decides to clog the lane.

IMHO as Parker matures mentally he'll know when and how to attack the lane when opponents guard it so tightly... and that's why i think he's far from being a finished product. he has the potential to be the best scoring PG in the NBA.

[Brodels]

did you just get....... DUCK3D? Lmao :owned :lmao :lmao :lmao

:lol I guess so. I'm not really sure what just happened.

[WalterBenitez]

"Is Tony Parker currently about as good as he's going to get?"

For me it is amazing how this kid play, phisically as it's been mentioned probably he'll have small room to improve, but could you imagine how good Tony will be in his prime, for instance when he were 27-29 years old, he'll be smarter, if he still have TD, Manu next to him this team has right to dream.

Tony for sure will improve.

[manubili]

I agree.
IMO Tony has a lot of room to improve in his identity as a player, mentally speaking. You see him much too often doubting about his next move. He has to get more regular.

I think he will improve very soon. Before, he will have to accept that he has Manu at his side. Both of them will have to match up even better than they do now.

Waht do you think about Manu and Tony relation in the court?

Enjoy

[WalterBenitez]

Waht do you think about Manu and Tony relation in the court?



Hummmm, :oops

Asking for opinion, right?

I'd like imagine that everything is all right since they are pro players, this is not laker town, an it seems like everything is running well.

I am not an insider, probably someone close to Spurs could explain the relationship among them better than me; but ... :rolleyes

I think the days where Manu used to ask (Tony) the ball are part of the past, I think TP, Manu are smart enough to realize when each of them is in a good night, probably Manu realize that very quickly and TP insists is his game, but ...

You know, Spurs are playing for NBA title, so ... the real leadership (I mean Tim) is working in this team. :elephant

[NCaliSpurs]

Brodels:

As Pop would say, that is all of a bunch of Baloney.

Speed: Implying that he needs to get faster to get better? Maybe he can still learn to use his speed more effectively. How can you possibly prove or imply that he can't?

Jumpshots: I would argue that his jumpshots have regressed because he doesn't force the issue enough to be consistent. Thus, his FG% is WAY UP because he is always attacking (read layups) and kicking out (read a lot more assists).

Playmaking: "It's clear that he is never going to be a better playmaker." Ok, Nostradumas. The guy is 23, not 32. Being a better playmaker comes with experience. Point guards don't peak at year 4.


If his primary attribute (his speed) isn't going to improve, his playmaking is never going to be a primary strength, and his jumper is what it is, are we currently seeing the Tony Parker of the next six years?

He doesn't need to get faster, just learn to use it better.

His playmaking may or may not improve. You just can't tell. No one can. He has a very high basketball IQ, and my hunch is that you are wrong on this one. But like I said... Who knows?

Jason Kidd never had a jumper. But he also couldn't finish like Tony. It is clear to me that Tony went away from the jumper this season because if his early struggles in the season. Despite his very poor jumpshooting percentage (he might be the worst on the team by a chunk), he has managed to hit some big ones in some big games, including game 1 of the finals. This is a wait and see thing.

[Nikos]

If Parker can improve his outside shot and hit FTs at a higher clip he would be twice the player. Hitting 3's and FT's and getting to the line goes along way to help improve the offensive efficiency for your team.

TP has room to grow IMO. I am just not sure if he will be a Top 5 PG. But all he really needs to do is improve the little areas, and scoring efficiency and he will be good enough to help this team compete for titles for the next few seasons.

I am not positive he will grow a lot either. But I think he will improve a decent amount by 2005-06 or 06-07. Whether it is enough to warrant his perceived talent and ability to be elite in this league coming in as a rookie starter, who knows?

Can anyone see him being a less gunning version of Marbury?

[NCaliSpurs]

The Marbury comparison stings.

Parker has been great at picking his moments and knowing when to defer to Manu and Timmy.

Can you see Starbury doing the same?

[Nikos]

Thats why I said less gunning version. Talented scorer who can pass, but mostly needs to score to be most effective. Not meant to diss TP at all.

[T Park]

the guy is 23 and hes hit a ceiling??

You people are fucking idiots.

[mavsfan1000]

Steve Francis hit his peak at like 22. He hasn't improved at all since then.

[TOP-CHERRY]

he has chewed out bowen before for not getting on his man

MAN! Did y'all hear him yell at Bowen in Game 1?! It was so loud, he sounded so frustrated like he was about to hit him.

I was just laughing my butt off cause he's so little with such an angry voice. :lol

[TOP-CHERRY]

Steve Francis hit his peak at like 22. He hasn't improved at all since then.

I guess it just depends on the player and how much he wants to improve his game. It also depends on the team and organization he's in. If he knows it's worth improving, he will. If he thinks his improving won't do much for the team, he won't. In Francis' case, he didn't.

Tony on the other had, knows that if Udrih or whoever comes along has more heart and guts to perform at a higher level than the current one, he can definitely be replaced. Heck, he's already seen it happen with Rasho being replaced by Nazr in the starting lineup.

[mavsfan1000]

I think size might have to do with how much you can improve. 6'1 is small so it will be harder for him to improve than for someone 6'6. He uses his speed to help him out but how many players that size become great players. Iverson is the only one I can think of.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

MAN! Did y'all hear him yell at Bowen in Game 1?! It was so loud, he sounded so frustrated like he was about to hit him.

I was just laughing my butt off cause he's so little with such an angry voice. :lol
So little??? The guy is 6'2", what are you talking about little??? I think you're trusting the TV too much, ofcourse he's gonna look little in comparison to those 6'10 guys, but Tony is anything but little man!

[picnroll]

If he can develop a better mid-range or long range shot he'll be easily all-star level. Can he develop a decent shot? Beginning to have my doubts.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I think that about the only thing that TP is going to improve on is his assist to turnover ratio, which would be a huge step in the right direction 'cause his speed isn't going to last that long, and I don't think his jumper is going anywhere. I do think he has the potential to become a great PG but I think his scoring ability is at a peak. He'll benefit this team more with court vision and just plain running the offense without actually scoring but rather assisting.

[TOP-CHERRY]

So little??? The guy is 6'2", what are you talking about little??? I think you're trusting the TV too much, ofcourse he's gonna look little in comparison to those 6'10 guys, but Tony is anything but little man!
Dude, I meant in comparison to the other guys, he's little.
I'm not stupid, I know he's tall compared to normal people. I met him once, and I know how tall he is, alright?

I'm just saying he sounds funny yelling in front of big men who are much, much taller than he is.

[Brodels]

Speed: Implying that he needs to get faster to get better? Maybe he can still learn to use his speed more effectively. How can you possibly prove or imply that he can't?

I can't prove that he can't, just like you can't prove that he can. He uses his speed to get into the lane. He uses it to push the ball. I guess I'm not exactly clear what he's going to do to use his speed more effectively. Explain some facets of his game that can improve if Tony uses his speed more effectively.

How can more effective use of his speed allow him to get in the lane more? And I don't think he's going to be able to more effectively use his speed to improve leaps and bounds defensively. He struggles with bigger point guards because of their size. That's his biggest defensive weakness.

I personally think he's using it pretty effectively right now.


Jumpshots: I would argue that his jumpshots have regressed because he doesn't force the issue enough to be consistent. Thus, his FG% is WAY UP because he is always attacking (read layups) and kicking out (read a lot more assists).

Last season he took more three pointers than he did in his rookie season. He shot better from downtown in his rookie year. Shouldn't he have been better from downtown last season because he had more attempts? If I read your argument correctly, that should have been the case.

I don't know if we could ever access such a statistic, but I thought Tony took a good number of midrange jumpers this season. He shot several per game. If he took hundreds per day last summer and several each day this season, shouldn't that be enough to be consistent? He certainly took more jump shots this season than he did in his rookie season, yet he's not noticeably better from the perimeter than he was then.

And since he most certainly took more shots from the perimeter this season than he did in his rookie season, shouldn't his three point percentage be better now?

I just think a comparison of his play today vs. his play in past seasons kills that argument.


Playmaking: "It's clear that he is never going to be a better playmaker." Ok, Nostradumas.

You must be Nostradamus, seeing that you're making up quotes. If you would have the decency, it would be great if you would actually respond to what I said instead of making things up that I didn't say.

I feel that he'll improve as a playmaker. I wish you would actually respond to what I said.


The guy is 23, not 32. Being a better playmaker comes with experience. Point guards don't peak at year 4.

I agree that he'll improve some as a playmaker. His age doesn't much matter. What's more important is that he's been in the league for four years and that he's played in many playoff series. He's improved some. But he hasn't improved a tremendous amount. And given that, what makes you think that his playmaking is suddenly going to improve as a pace faster than he's been improving at in the past?

Four years in the league and four deep playoff runs (which amounts to about 3/4 of another season) is quite a lot of time. Almost five seasons? Many, if not post, point guards have done their biggest improving as far as playmaking goes during that time.

Name me five current point guards who did their biggest growing as playmakers after they've played in the league for almost five years.


His playmaking may or may not improve. You just can't tell. No one can. He has a very high basketball IQ, and my hunch is that you are wrong on this one. But like I said... Who knows?

It will improve some. And I agree that his basketball IQ is high. He knows what to do out there. But he's never going to be one of the game's great playmakers. The best playmaking point guards almost have an innate ability. You can tell when they are young that they will be great playmakers. Look at Magic, Kidd, Isiah...those guys were great playmakers and you knew they were going to be almost right away.

I feel pretty safe in stating that none of the great playmakers in the history of the game became great in that area only after playing four or five years in the league.

Now, I know you're probably not arguing that Tony will be a great playmaker. But how much more can he improve? If he's not going to get to that great playmaker level, I'm not convinced that there will be a ton of improvement in that area.

375 NBA games is a lot.


Jason Kidd never had a jumper. But he also couldn't finish like Tony. It is clear to me that Tony went away from the jumper this season because if his early struggles in the season. Despite his very poor jumpshooting percentage (he might be the worst on the team by a chunk), he has managed to hit some big ones in some big games, including game 1 of the finals. This is a wait and see thing.

Kidd can finish pretty well at the rim. He's a little bit bigger and is more likely to finish when he gets hit. He also doesn't get stripped as much under the basket. But he never was (and isn't currently) a great perimeter shooter. He sees the floor better than Tony and defends (or at least he used to) better then Tony. That's why he's better.

In my mind, improving his jump shot is the one thing that could allow him to become great and take his game to the next level. If he can hit it regularly, he'll be a real handful. But his jumpshot hasn't improved very much since he's been in the league, and at this point, it's hard for me to believe that it's going to improve a ton. But I hope it does.

[smeagol]

Don't piss of Brodels or he will kick your ass!

[Man In Black]

I don't have a problem with Kevin Johnson-Lite do any of you?

While it's true he capitalizes on his ability to run and needs a jumpshot, it's not like he can't help this team to additional championship(s).

Why worry about his ceiling anyways? It's a team concept here and as it has been talked about so many times...IT'S A DEFINED ROLE FOR EVERY PLAYER. AS long as he fills it to the letter per Pop, then he should be A-OK. I mean the team was winning with Rasho following his role, with Bruce following his role. If anything say Parker averages 17 & 7 that makes him no worse than other good scoring PG's in the L, in short it makes him seem like KJ-Lite.

[mavsfan1000]

I don't see Parker improving much. He is undersized at his size and is in very good shape. If he lets down on his conditioning it will be hard for him to get back to where he is at now. When he starts to slow down it will be about 30 since he relies so much on his quickness. Players who rely mostly on their speed seem to develop quicker at a younger but doesn't mean they are going to continue to get better. They might understand the game more but that's it.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't see how Tony won't improve. This is probably the most off-based post that I've ever seen from Brodels.

His decision making will improve as he continues to mature. His defense improves steadily. His jumpshooting and free throw shooting will definitely improve if he works on them. And as he "slows down" with age, many other facets of his game will improve because he won't be able to rely on his speed as much and will need to be more crafty to score.

Bad Thread. :)

[picnroll]

Why worry about his ceiling anyways?
Because most realize that if Parker can step it up, for most that's become a reliable shooter, that a Spurs dynasty is pretty much in the bag.

Remember going into the first round last year Memphis had owned SA and many were nervous about that series. Well Parker was hitting his outside shot which set up the rest of his game and he single handedly destroyed the Grizz. That carried over to the first two games of the LA series. Then TP shut down and the rest is history. If Parker could shoot like Nash or Billups then river parades every year for the next four years.

[Timoha]

Tony's main problem (as I see it right now) is consistancy. He is capable of having huge games, and sometimes does. But sometimes he just doesn't play very well. I think that consistency comes with eperience. So I think that Tony will definatly improve.

[boutons]

for the 04 Grizz series, I distinctly remember Hubie complimenting Tony's unstoppable layups "and he does it right in right in face of your big men", not his outside shot.

[Brodels]

I don't see how Tony won't improve. This is probably the most off-based post that I've ever seen from Brodels.

You're officially a homer. :lol


His decision making will improve as he continues to mature.

What have you seen in the past year or two to convince you that his decision making is going to improve very much? I think it will improve some, but not by leaps and bounds. After 375 NBA games, I think you have a pretty good idea about what a player is going to do as far as playmaking goes.


His defense improves steadily.

Again, I can see small improvements here. But his greatest weakness defensively is not really a weakness, it's an attribute: his size. He does pretty good staying with people on the perimeter. He still requires help if bigger point guards post him up, and he's not going to grow three inches or put on twenty pounds.


His jumpshooting and free throw shooting will definitely improve if he works on them.

If he works on them, that could happen. But he said that he worked hard on his jump shot last summer, and we haven't really seen any evidence that it really made a difference.

What do you expect from him? Do you want him to work hard on his jumpshot all summer? He supposedly already did that last summer.


And as he "slows down" with age, many other facets of his game will improve because he won't be able to rely on his speed as much and will need to be more crafty to score.

That's probably the case. But he's simply not going to be as good if he loses a significant amount of speed. We've seen many other guards decline because they lost some speed. He'll compensate because he'll have lots of experience, but will it be enough to offset his loss of speed?


Bad Thread. :)

Maybe. But I don't think anyone has made a good argument to prove me wrong.

I hate that if I start a thread like this everyone thinks I'm a Parker hater. I fully believed until about thirty days ago that Parker would turn out to be better than Manu. I think Tony's awesome and I love to watch him play. I just think he's not going to become significantly better.

And in the end, the Spurs don't need him to. I'll take Kevin Johnson lite any day.

[timvp]

The key to Tony's improvement beyond this point is working on his jumper. While his FG% from outside the lane took a hit this year, the reason for that is he totally reworked the style of his jumper. If you look at tape from now and compare it to his rookie season, it's totally different. Even compare it to the Lakers series last year and it's different. He actually leaves the ground on his jumpers and doesn't really shoot set-shots anymore.

It's going to take a while for TP to adjust to this new shooting stroke. Although it's still pretty ugly, it looks a lot prettier nowadays. All he has to do is hit those wide open 18-footers coming around pick and rolls and suddenly he becomes unguardable. That's the difference between him being a 16 points per game scorer and averaging closer to 22. If he hits that jumper consistently, that'll force people to guard him ... which will then open up driving lanes where he is deadly in the paint. Right now no one really guards him on the perimeter. Imagine if he makes people pay for that one day.

There is a chance that he never becomes a better shooter, but I think he will. He's about the age of your standard rookie and there have been a lot of people who've come into the league and created jumpshots for themselves.

I expect Parker will average closer to 20 next regular season, while Manu is averaging around the same he averaged this season. Then in the playoffs, Manu can turn it up and become the playoff superstar that he is. But as far as the regular season goes, I think Parker has been and will continue to be more important to this team racking up wins.






P.S.

Another area to look at is how much stronger Parker has gotten. This is the first season that you can see some muscle on him. The stronger he gets, the better off he'll be finishing and on the defensive end.

[Kori Ellis]

You're officially a homer.

Or you are hater?
:)
I just don't see many good NBA players stop their development at 23.


What have you seen in the past year or two to convince you that his decision making is going to improve very much?

The fact that for a long while the Spurs tried to turn him into a more typical point guard. Only this season has everyone decided that being a scoring point is what he's going to be. Now that his role is more definied I think he will become more comfortable in his decisions.



Again, I can see small improvements here.

His defense has improved dramatically since the beginning of the 2003-04 season until now. Go watch some old tape. So I don't see how he can't continue to improve. He has begun to study his opponents and take on the challenge of becoming a good defender.



If he works on them, that could happen. But he said that he worked hard on his jump shot last summer, and we haven't really seen any evidence that it really made a difference.

We heard before the summer that he was going to work on his J last summer. I don't think that actually happened. I am hoping that this summer it will.

[Sii]

The notion that Parker is reached his peak at 23 fucking years old is nothing short of insanity. Who knows how much better he gets but he WILL improve. You dont reach your peak at 23 or in year 4 of being in the league. Parker being an Allstar is a next step and I think that happens soon

[Nikos]

KJ actually didn't improve after 23. His best seasons were actually when he was 22-24. After that he was a similiar player.

One thing KJ had that Parker doesn't appear to is ABILITY to get to the line and convert. That is huge. KJ could leap higher when he got to the lane and finish even with contact and a long defender all over him. But KJ also had a money mid-range jumper that may have helped him get to the rack even more. Opponents had to respect it because KJ could get it off quickly with his great quickness and leaping skills.

Parker could survive without the 3pt shot, but with Duncan being around it makes it easier for him to get clean looks and become a more efficient offensive player by just making open shots. Couple that with making more FTs, getting to the line a little more -- and hitting the mid-range jumper, he could be similiar to KJ in how he scores his points.

All the little ways to improve your scoring and offensive efficiency can add up. Slightly better mid-range shooting, more FTA's and makes, and slightly better 3pt shooting can add up to a huge 3-4ppg offensive improvement. It's possible he can improve a bit in all categories.

[mavsfan1000]

It all depends on how dedicated Parker is to becoming a better player. He should watch alot of tape of how Nash gets everyone involved. Get in even better shape and feel comfortable with the ball in his hands without worrying about turnovers. Some of this might be harder because people don't respect his perimeter shooting.

[Dr.Phil]

Tony has not reached his full potential and I'd dare say he won't hit his peak for a few years yet. If he listens to his coaches and does not let what he reads or hears from the media get to him his future is mind boggling.

[exstatic]

If he can develop a better mid-range or long range shot he'll be easily all-star level. Can he develop a decent shot? Beginning to have my doubts.

He needs a shooting coach. If Malik can hire one, become an 80% FT shooter, and develop a servicable jumper, then I hardly think Tony's time is up. He doesn't need to become Ray Allen, just keep the defense honest and not allow them to collapse into the lane.

[Lady M]

I think Tony will continue to improve because Paris will organize the 2012 olympics games and he want win the gold medal in Paris :elephant

(ok nothing is sure but I dream :spin )

[JERRYBUSS]

Tony parker has hit a ceiling definitely. How much better can he get? He clearly doesn't have the touch from the outside to become a player the cailber of Steve Nash. He is a good player, but one who lacks the natural shooting touch. And I'm sorry folks, if you don't shoot well you never will. If Parker could shoot from outside he'd be one of the best pg's in the league, because teams wouldn't be giving him so much space on the perimeter. THen he could drive and create for his teammates like Steve Nash does. Parker plays in an efficient offensive system and usually only shoots when wide open coming off beautifully designed Popovich pick and roll plays. But put him out there on a team without duncan and ginobili and he's just an above average player, not a star who can carry a team with his versatility and overall range of play.

[slayermin]

There was that great play when TP ran across the baseline but nothing was there. He then turned back into the lane, without picking up his dribble and scored. I think it was in the 4th Qtr.

Baseline Bum told me, that reminded him of Steve Nash. At that point, I felt like TP took a huge step forward. He is learning from the guys he's playing against and eventually, will be the best point in the game. I can't be critical of him any longer.

[JERRYBUSS]

The point is Parker is effective in the Spurs offensive system. But put him out there in a free offense not based on pick and roll and he's nothing. Suppose he was traded to a team like Atlanta. Do you think he could do anything on his own without Tim Duncan under the hoop?

[SPARKY]

At age 23 Steve Nash was just learning how to take a dump and wipe his ass, let alone start at point in the NBA. Also, the last time I checked Parker is fairly consistent at nailing the 18 to 20 foot jumper.

Those of you who are already proclaiming the plateau of his career need a little help, especially the last poster.

[NASHville]

The sky is the limit for this young player who has NOT reached his ceiling, not even close. As he learns the game, and he does have lots to learn, his decision making will become second nature and his assist to turnover ratio will become better.
How anyone can think Tony has reached his ceiling is ridiculous.

[R2-D2]

He peaked at age 17! Now that he has full-blown AIDS, it is all downhill!

God hates fags!

[Lady M]

watch Nash, Kidd, Billups or Bibby stats after 4 years in NBA

Tony was younger (2 or 3 years) of all this great players after 4 years and apart from Kidd assists TP stats are better

how can you say TP can't improve whereas the players improved so much.
please use your brain before write stupide things

[boutons]

"and he's nothing."

plonk

[SPARKY]

The point is Parker is effective in the Spurs offensive system. But put him out there in a free offense not based on pick and roll and he's nothing. Suppose he was traded to a team like Atlanta. Do you think he could do anything on his own without Tim Duncan under the hoop?

Put Parker with a team that runs an open court offense ala the Suns and he's putting up 20+ ppg easily. Parker's greatest strength is his footspeed. But of course you knew that, I suppose.

[JERRYBUSS]

lil French fried faggot.........heheheheheh

[SPARKY]

lil French fried faggot.........heheheheheh

Good one.

[NASHville]

lil French fried faggot.........heheheheheh

Who is still playing while the rest of us are fishing. :oops

[mavsfan1000]

If San Antonio wants to dominate they need Parker to make San Antonio an offensive juggernaut. They already have the defense but maybe in 5 years he will learn all of Nash's moves and the Spurs become a dynasty.

[Sii]

lil French fried faggot.........heheheheheh

what a loser you are

fuck off

[ducks]

if tony played for the suns he would easily score 20-25 points a game

[NASHville]

if tony played for the suns he would easily score 20-25 points a game

Actually he'd be Nash's backup.

[SPARKY]

Parker is a peon compared to Kobe Bryant OK. You can't base an offense around his punk ass.


*Enter straw man argument*



It was funny how he folded for four straight games last year against the Lakers.


LA changed their entire offense to stop him after getting torched in the first two by him.




I can't wait to see him get checked today by the Pistons.


Why is it that you've had to wait? Or are you really that stupid?




Sparky, you don't know a damn thing


Oh, I know a tad bit more than yourself.




and the Spurs are idiots for getting rid of Stephen Jackson he is my ######.

That's nice to know. Do you have his papers and is he branded?

[SPARKY]

What's the over/under for the combined grade level of JERRYBUSS and R2-D2? I'll say 10...

[slayermin]

Parker's perimeter game is only going to get better. I dont' see any reason why he won't be as effective as Nash, offensively. He's already a better defender.

He will be the best point guard in the game. By the time his current contract is up, he will command max money.

[mavsfan1000]

There are alot of ifs in your argument and I would not bet against San Antonio because of how good they are at home. If you knew that you wouldn't be so cocky on thinking the Pistons will win game 2.

[Sii]

looks like someones mommie let them get on the computer again

[boutons]

France (and Germany and half the USA) was right about not starting a bogus war in Iraq.

Shrub/dickhead were wrong, they are murderers with US/Iraqi blood on their hands.

R2-D2 = plonk

[ducks]

Actually he'd be Nash's backup.
actually nash would be traded for a big man

[ducks]

suns would keep tp because he is MUCH younger and is fast and nash is alot older



Spurs are idiots for getting rid of Stephen Jackson he is my ######.
spurs offered jackson the most money when he left the spurs
but they were idiots yeah whatever

[Lady M]

Only America-hating leftists could ever root for a gay frenchie!

France hates America!!!!!!!!!!

Jacques Chriac = Tony Parquer.

ANY SAN ANTONIO FAN THAT LIKE TONY PARKER IS A TRAITOR LIBERAL DEMOCRAP LEFTIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you are so pathetic
I'm french
I don't want french army goes in iraqi
Bush and Blair lied and we can see it all day (more than 700 iraqi death in may especially civilian), why we must go when we say you it's stupid (and we are right)

but i think don't go in Iraqi is the only good decision of Chirac

TP never say a world about the war and don't use politics tread to discribe him

[ducks]

tp's interview after saturdays practice said pop and tp watched film on billips and tp is going to do things different today. we will see if it works

[T Park]

Shrub/dickhead were wrong, they are murderers with US/Iraqi blood on their hands


This sentance makes as much sense as

"The division leading Houston Rockets"

[Brodels]

His defense has improved dramatically since the beginning of the 2003-04 season until now. Go watch some old tape. So I don't see how he can't continue to improve. He has begun to study his opponents and take on the challenge of becoming a good defender.

He does a pretty good job staying in front of people and anticipating. He's not going to add a ton of weight without jeopardizing his quickness, so he's not ever going to be an excellent post defender. His ability or inability to play help defense is practically negligible because the Spurs don't double on the perimeter, and if they double down low, Tony isn't going to be the man to do it. I just don't see how he's going to become that much better defensively.


We heard before the summer that he was going to work on his J last summer. I don't think that actually happened. I am hoping that this summer it will.

I thought he had actually done it. Either way, it doesn't give me much hope for this summer if he told everyone he was going to work really hard on it all summer and didn't.



He needs a shooting coach. If Malik can hire one, become an 80% FT shooter, and develop a servicable jumper, then I hardly think Tony's time is up. He doesn't need to become Ray Allen, just keep the defense honest and not allow them to collapse into the lane.

That would be cool. I think it could help.


lil French fried faggot.........heheheheheh

Get the hell out of my thread, troll.


Parker's perimeter game is only going to get better. I dont' see any reason why he won't be as effective as Nash, offensively. He's already a better defender.

It looks to me like his perimeter game has regressed. Even if you disagree, which is certainly understandable, answer this: what has he done over the past few seasons to show you that he'll improve his perimeter shooting? It really hasn't improved. I don't know what makes you think that's going to change all of a sudden.



Shrub/dickhead were wrong, they are murderers with US/Iraqi blood on their hands.

Eh?

Tony's game is built on footspeed. He relies on it heavily. He's not a naturally great playmaker and he's not a naturally great shooter. He could improve his shooting, but he hasn't done anything to show that he'll actually do it. He will become a better playmaker, but it's clear that he doesn't have that innate ability to become one of the best.

Tony Parker will be a top five point guard in the NBA for years, but he won't be a top three point guard.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Here are some specifics from 82games.com:

* During the regular season 58% of his shots were jumpshots, and he hit 40.5% of those shots.

* During the playoffs, 65% of his attempts have been jumpshots, and he's hit 36.1% of those (playoff teams have done a better job preventing TP from getting to the rack).

* During 2003-2004, 68% of TP's attempts were jumpshots and he hit 39.8% of those.

* During 2002-2003, 67% of his attempts were jumpshots, and he hit 42.8% of those.

Regarding free throws:
In 2002-2003, TP shot 75.5% from the line.
In 2003-2004, TP shot 71.3% from the line.
This season, TP shot 65% from the line.

[Brodels]

Here are some specifics from 82games.com:

* During the regular season 58% of his shots were jumpshots, and he hit 40.5% of those shots.

* During the playoffs, 65% of his attempts have been jumpshots, and he's hit 36.1% of those (playoff teams have done a better job preventing TP from getting to the rack).

* During 2003-2004, 68% of TP's attempts were jumpshots and he hit 39.8% of those.

* During 2002-2003, 67% of his attempts were jumpshots, and he hit 42.8% of those.

Regarding free throws:
In 2002-2003, TP shot 75.5% from the line.
In 2003-2004, TP shot 71.3% from the line.
This season, TP shot 65% from the line.

Those are some great stats. I'm shocked that 65% of his shots in the playoffs have been from the perimeter. I didn't think it would be that high. I'm also a little shocked that he's only hit 36% of them.

His free throw shooting numbers are a little disturbing.

[ducks]

tp has had about 4 bad games in the playoffs you take those away and he shoots a better %

[picnroll]

for the 04 Grizz series, I distinctly remember Hubie complimenting Tony's unstoppable layups "and he does it right in right in face of your big men", not his outside shot.
Parker was nailing the threes in that series as well as mid-range shots. It was a glimpse of what he could be if he ever develops a consistent outside shot. sigh

[mavsfan1000]

The only way San Antonio can lose a series is if Parker disappears.

[NCaliSpurs]

I can't prove that he can't, just like you can't prove that he can. He uses his speed to get into the lane. He uses it to push the ball. I guess I'm not exactly clear what he's going to do to use his speed more effectively. Explain some facets of his game that can improve if Tony uses his speed more effectively.

The bold parts, read em again. This is exactly why you shouldn't use them in an argument. I was just pointing out your flawed reasoning.



Shouldn't he have been better from downtown last season because he had more attempts? If I read your argument correctly, that should have been the case.


You must not have read my argument correctly. I wasn't saying anything about any other season other than THIS season. Tony struggled mightily with his shot early in the season. Somehow, he came out of it to raise his fg% to a career high (and top 5 in all point guards if I recall correctly). He did this by reducing the number of jumpshots he took as a percentage of his total shot attempts. That's all I was saying or implying.



I just think a comparison of his play today vs. his play in past seasons kills that argument.

I agree. I never really brought in the past beyond saying that the jumpshot has a taken backseat to everything else in his repertoire. Thus, he is inconstistent.



You must be Nostradamus, seeing that you're making up quotes. If you would have the decency, it would be great if you would actually respond to what I said instead of making things up that I didn't say.

I said that you said:
"It's clear that he is never going to be a better playmaker."

You actually said:

it's clear that he's never going to be among the game's great playmakers

Which is why I didn't quote you directly, and I just paraphrased you. I thought you implied his playmaking wasn't going to get better (thus mentioning it as an argument in a topic with a title of "Has Parker hit is ceiling?").



I feel that he'll improve as a playmaker.

So then why has he hit his ceiling?



And given that, what makes you think that his playmaking is suddenly going to improve as a pace faster than he's been improving at in the past?

Nash never was in the top 5 for MVP voting until this year. What, 9 years in the league?



Name me five current point guards who did their biggest growing as playmakers after they've played in the league for almost five years.

Before you assume what the stats are, you go look for them. You post them. I know what you'll find. Tony is doign quite well in all areas except assists. But I would argue this is situational, being dependant on Tony's team. You will disagree because it wouldn't support your argument. What's the point?

Just for farts and giggles:
Whose YEAR 4 numbers are these


YEAR TEAM G GS MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
99-00 DAL 56 27 27.4 .477 .403 .882 .60 1.60 2.20 4.9 .66 .05 1.82 2.20 8.6


That would be the 31 year old mvp Nash.



Look at Magic, Kidd, Isiah...those guys were great playmakers and you knew they were going to be almost right away.

Tony being a top notch point guard doesn't mean he has be in that group.



If he's not going to get to that great playmaker level, I'm not convinced that there will be a ton of improvement in that area.

Too bad for you. I don't this is the type of thing that can really be predicted. I belive the Spurs front office disagrees with you. Tony has a contract to prove it.



In my mind, improving his jump shot is the one thing that could allow him to become great and take his game to the next level.

I won't say it is the ONE thing, because there are a ton of other aspects to the game besides taking 18-23 fters.

But it is his biggest weakness (along with FT%). We'll see if he can improve.

[Brodels]

The bold parts, read em again. This is exactly why you shouldn't use them in an argument. I was just pointing out your flawed reasoning.

You can never prove anything when predicting how a player is going to play in the future. You can't prove that Duncan won't average five points and five rebounds next season just like I can't prove that Rasho won't put up forty and twenty. You make an argument and support it. Just because an argument can't be proven doesn't make it a bad argument.


You must not have read my argument correctly. I wasn't saying anything about any other season other than THIS season. Tony struggled mightily with his shot early in the season. Somehow, he came out of it to raise his fg% to a career high (and top 5 in all point guards if I recall correctly). He did this by reducing the number of jumpshots he took as a percentage of his total shot attempts. That's all I was saying or implying.

If he gave up on his jump shot this season, I'm even more concerned. Whatever your argument was, and perhaps I misunderstood it, I think we can both agree that Tony hasn't improved his perimeter shooting over the course of his NBA career. In my mind, that's a good indication that he's unlikely to improve his perimeter game by leaps and bounds in the future.


I said that you said:
"It's clear that he is never going to be a better playmaker."

You actually said:


Which is why I didn't quote you directly, and I just paraphrased you. I thought you implied his playmaking wasn't going to get better (thus mentioning it as an argument in a topic with a title of "Has Parker hit is ceiling?").

Saying that a player's playmaking skills won't improve a little bit and saying that a player won't be among the game's great playmakers are two different arguments.


So then why has he hit his ceiling?

I'm not saying that he won't improve at all. I just think that most of his significant growth could be done. I think it's possible that he's reached his ceiling or he's close to it. I don't think it's a certainty. And I certainly don't think that small, incremental patterns of growth mean that he's exceeding the ceiling that's been suggested.


Nash never was in the top 5 for MVP voting until this year. What, 9 years in the league?

Answer me this: Is Nash really that much better of a player now than he was last season or two season ago? I say no. Nash found himself in a situation that allowed him to take maximum advantage of his skills. You don't really believe that Nash would have been the league MVP if he would have stayed in Dallas, do you?


Before you assume what the stats are, you go look for them. You post them. I know what you'll find. Tony is doign quite well in all areas except assists. But I would argue this is situational, being dependant on Tony's team. You will disagree because it wouldn't support your argument. What's the point?

Just for farts and giggles:
Whose YEAR 4 numbers are these


YEAR TEAM G GS MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
99-00 DAL 56 27 27.4 .477 .403 .882 .60 1.60 2.20 4.9 .66 .05 1.82 2.20 8.6


That would be the 31 year old mvp Nash.

Those are interesting stats, but they don't show that Nash wasn't a good playmaker at age 31 and then became a good playmaker all of sudden. For one thing, Nash didn't have the ball in his hands as much then. He didn't play as many minutes. And he didn't have the freedom at that point to do what he does now. Does that mean that he would have been the Nash we know now with more playing time? Not necessarily, but those stats don't show that Nash was any worse as a playmaker than he was two seasons later.

Nash has always had pretty good playmaking ability. Even in those days, he found open guys that many other point guards wouldn't have found.


Tony being a top notch point guard doesn't mean he has be in that group.

No, but if he wants to be a great playmaker he does.


I don't this is the type of thing that can really be predicted.

Sure it is. Anyone can make a prediction about anything, and people will be correct a certain percentage of the time.

It's a legit argument. The argument that Tony is going to be the best point guard in the league is a legit argument. Nothing can be proven.


I belive the Spurs front office disagrees with you. Tony has a contract to prove it.

What the front office thinks really doesn't have much to do with the argument, because the front office could be wrong. They certainly expected more out of Malik Rose when they gave him a long term deal. I think it's possible they expected more out of Rasho when they gave him a long term contract. They expected more out of Barry this season when they gave him a four year deal. They expected more out of Jaren Jackson when they gave him that contract after they won a championship.

And it's possible that the front office doesn't expect a whole lot more out of Tony. The going rate for a very good point guard in the NBA is within the range that Tony was given. Tony was already a very good point guard going into the summer, and you really don't know that the front office gave him a contract expecting him to improve a whole lot.

And it's possible that they do expect that. It might even be probable. But that doesn't mean that it's going to happen. Look at the examples above.


But it is his biggest weakness (along with FT%). We'll see if he can improve.

I hope he does. I'm not very confident that he will.

[stéphane]

Isn't Tony improving every year since he's been drafted?
What is the exact point that would just stop that right now?
PG is one of the position where you can improve your playmaking every day if you're not too proud and if you're smart.

[NCaliSpurs]

You can never prove anything when predicting how a player is going to play in the future. You can't prove that Duncan won't average five points and five rebounds next season just like I can't prove that Rasho won't put up forty and twenty. You make an argument and support it. Just because an argument can't be proven doesn't make it a bad argument.


But with something like "Parker is never going to utilize his speed better", it is an argument which has no grounding in anything other than opinion, on both sides. Your original argument was, "Tony is utilizing his speed to the fullest potential, he isn't getting faster, so he must not be getting better since his game is predicated on speed. Correct me if I am wrong.

My hunch is that he can still learn to change of pace a little better, and can learn to get into the lane without having to necessarily give up his dribble.

But like I said, the argument is shaky at best on both sides. There isn't anything empirical to back this up.



I think we can both agree that Tony hasn't improved his perimeter shooting over the course of his NBA career.

We can agree that his shooting isn't better, though Timvp has pointed out an improvment in his form.

I will say that he has improved significantly in SCORING, which is something our team needs as much as a good shooter.



And I certainly don't think that small, incremental patterns of growth mean that he's exceeding the ceiling that's been suggested.

I think improvement by definition means that he has passed a ceiling. A ceiling is fixed. If Tony Parker has small incremental improvements in his playmaking, every year for the next 5 years, he will be the best point guard in the game.



Those are interesting stats, but they don't show that Nash wasn't a good playmaker at age 31 and then became a good playmaker all of sudden.


But they do show that Parker is better than Nash was at the exact same point in their careers. If Parker doesn't get better then I'll be extremely surprised, because he can stand to improve a lot.

[SouthernFried]

I think BRODELS and BOUTONS first 2 posts were some of the most insightful I've seen. Great points on both of them.

As far as TP hitting his "ceiling...I think it's entirely up to him.

A lotta people stagnate after a certain point because they stop trying to improve. They are either happy with their game, or just get tired. Some are unwiling to make the effort to change aspects of their game.

But, some aint.

TP may not get quicker, but, if he works at his game...he may not have to.

I know guys can improve in their 20's, and even in their 30's...cuz I've seen it happen.

TP may not get quicker...but, he can get stronger. He CAN improve his shot, if he really wants to. He CAN become an even better ball handler and assist man. He's not gonna get any taller...but, he can become even more effective.

If TP is smart, he is learning all the time from this game...and will use that "veteran" knowledge to improve court awareness and game dynamics. I would almost always take a wily, knowledgeable veteran...over an inexperienced, athletic youngster.

However, I think TP's speed is gonna be around for quite a while, barring injuries. So, he has plenty of time to work on other aspects of his game.

He can become better, and doesn't have to settle for his current abilities as his "ceiling."

"IF"...he's focused enough, smart enough, and dedicated enough to do it.

[spur219]

Relax. Tony is not even in his prime yet. Most players in the NBA start peaking at age 28 and he is only 23. He will get better the fact is that he is still learning the game in it's entirety. So relax just wait till he gets over the age of 25 and start seeing the real Tony.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Can you imagine is TP improves dramatically within the next 2 or 3 years! we could end up with 3 bonified superstars that actually have team chemistry for a period of about 3 to 4 years!