Ronaldo v. Messi: The Missing Rivalry

[scott]

Great article.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7034370/ronaldo-vs-messi

[lefty]

Maradonna shits on both of them

[diego]

ronaldo is hated for being a arrogant, diving, cry baby, ball hog. If messi did the same, he would get the same boos. As for Ronaldo's accomplishments, they are nothing to write home about. He's very lucky he won a single world footballer of the year award, everything else is not very spectacular at all. Is there a single memorable Ronaldo play, by the importance of the match or the spectacle of the play?

For messi I can think of 4 immediately- the flick and finish goal against arsenal in the CL last year, the slalom run against getafe, the slalom run againt RMA last year in the liga (I think messi scored both barca goals that game), the flick over casillas deep in the area (including the defender crashing into the post) a couple years back.

[it's me]

Lol, all bullshit, fact is that there's no rivalry because Messi is just far superior....... Lol pichichi scoring a bunch of goals when the liga was over and Messi was saving his legs to shit all over Manchester.... Lol penalty kick differential between Barcelona and Real Moudrid in the Ronaldo era 23-8 to Madrid and still losing. Ronaldo is a good player, a real good player, nothing more. Messi in the other hand, will probably be in the top 5 list of players that ever played the game

[scott]

ronaldo is hated for being a arrogant, diving, cry baby, ball hog. If messi did the same, he would get the same boos. As for Ronaldo's accomplishments, they are nothing to write home about. He's very lucky he won a single world footballer of the year award, everything else is not very spectacular at all. Is there a single memorable Ronaldo play, by the importance of the match or the spectacle of the play?

For messi I can think of 4 immediately- the flick and finish goal against arsenal in the CL last year, the slalom run against getafe, the slalom run againt RMA last year in the liga (I think messi scored both barca goals that game), the flick over casillas deep in the area (including the defender crashing into the post) a couple years back.

I think that's kind of the point of the article. It doesn't feel like a rivalry because Messi is so likable and Ronaldo is such a prick, and because Ronaldo hasn't been able to get over the Messi hump.

But to say Ronaldo's accomplishments aren't anything write home about is also the point of the article. The guy has won a lot of silverware, the sport is still about team accomplishments, and he was a huge part of those teams.

As for single memorable Ronaldo plays, the only one I can think of is his headed winner versus Barca in Copa del Rey last year.

For context: I like Real more than Barca (not really a fan of either), but I hate Ronaldo and love Messi.

[TDMVPDPOY]

ronaldo is damn good, but i think he has either peaked as a player

pichipichi dont mean shit, if you remove his penalty goals, its probably the same as his highest total for the season at manutd...(at manutd he wasnt even first choice for penalty kicks to pad his goals compared to last season at rma, where penalty kicks he was always first choice...given that he has already scored a goal for the game, he will padd his goals by taking the penalty kick...)

to the clown who says messi is going to be top 5 when its all said and done...lol have to win worldcup man...

[it's me]

ronaldo is damn good, but i think he has either peaked as a player

pichipichi dont mean shit, if you remove his penalty goals, its probably the same as his highest total for the season at manutd...(at manutd he wasnt even first choice for penalty kicks to pad his goals compared to last season at rma, where penalty kicks he was always first choice...given that he has already scored a goal for the game, he will padd his goals by taking the penalty kick...)

to the clown who says messi is going to be top 5 when its all said and done...lol have to win worldcup man...

Lol clown???? whats your top5 ever?

[TDMVPDPOY]

Lol clown???? whats your top5 ever?

canizares
mendieta
abelda
villa
silva

bring it bitch

[it's me]

canizares
mendieta
abelda
villa
silva

bring it bitch

:lmao 10/10 for the originality..... admit it bitch.... dude's is already top 10 all time... and just 24 years old.

[ElNono]

What rivalry?

thanks for posting :tu

[Jodelo]

Messi is overrated, lucky he plays with Xavi who is the beat footballer of the world since 2-3 years! Always a joy to watch.

[it's me]

Xavi, Iniesta, Guardiola, etc are overrated, lucky they play with Messi who is the beat footballer of the world since 2-3 years! Always a joy to watch.

I totally agree .... ohh... by the way I fixed it for you :toast

[Brazil]

Maradonna shits on both of them

shit one lefty post I actually agree with !

[DAF86]

Not too long ago I heard my favorite sport's journalist Juan Pablo Varsky say that "Messi was the best Maradona everyday", I haven't had the chance to see Maradona play on his prime but if Varsky (a known Maradona fan) says that I bealive him.

People tend to overrate former players and underrate current ones in the all-time great debate. I haven't seen a better player in my lifetime than Messi and I seriously doubt there could have been a player that did what he does with the consistency that he does.

[DAF86]

to the clown who says messi is going to be top 5 when its all said and done...lol have to win worldcup man...

Cruyff is considered a top 5 player of all-time and he never won a WC.

Besides the WC argument is bullshit when arguing individuals. The WC is a team's championship that is played one month every four year. You need a whole lot of things working for you to win one, one of those things being luck 'cause many times the WC isn't won by the best team.

Not to mention that the WC isn't the elite tournament in terms of quality, the tournament that gathers the most talent is the Champions League, that is where the truly best compete on a regular basis.

[DAF86]

About the article, you know there's no debate when in a clear pro-Ronaldo piece you read this "No, he's not as good as Messi".

[mystargtr34]

Of course there's a rivalry.. theres just too much hate burning in the Messi cockriders/Ronaldo haters to admit it. Ronaldo is the only guy in the world who can come close to Messi.. so theres naturally a rivalry but it doesnt mean Messi isnt the superior player.

[joshdaboss]

I totally agree .... ohh... by the way I fixed it for you :toast

Last I checked, Xavi just won the world cup... while Messi got his asshole raped 4-0 against Germany. Also shot more times than any other player in the world cup. How many goals did he score by shooting the most of any player in the world cup again? Refresh my memory???

[joshdaboss]

Not to mention that the WC isn't the elite tournament in terms of quality, the tournament that gathers the most talent is the Champions League, that is where the truly best compete on a regular basis.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao

Credibility... if you had any... is out the window.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Of course there's a rivalry.. theres just too much hate burning in the Messi cockriders/Ronaldo haters to admit it. Ronaldo is the only guy in the world who can come close to Messi.. so theres naturally a rivalry but it doesnt mean Messi isnt the superior player.

i thought kaka or even ribery/robben had a chance, but injuries has derailed these guys careers...

ozil and di maria...if they played on one man teams and continue with the current performances in big tournaments, then they could make a case for themselves this decade...but too bad these guys play on stacked teams and get overshadowed due to not touches and tv time on sportscenter play of the night....

[joshdaboss]

i thought kaka or even ribery/robben had a chance, but injuries has derailed these guys careers...

ozil and di maria...if they played on one man teams and continue with the current performances in big tournaments, then they could make a case for themselves this decade...but too bad these guys play on stacked teams and get overshadowed due to not touches and tv time on sportscenter play of the night....

Muller is better than Ozil.

[it's me]

Last I checked, Xavi just won the world cup... while Messi got his asshole raped 4-0 against Germany. Also shot more times than any other player in the world cup. How many goals did he score by shooting the most of any player in the world cup again? Refresh my memory???

Lol Gaynaldo's dick isn't enough for already:lmao

[MB20]

Not too long ago I heard my favorite sport's journalist Juan Pablo Varsky say that "Messi was the best Maradona everyday", I haven't had the chance to see Maradona play on his prime but if Varsky (a known Maradona fan) says that I bealive him.

People tend to overrate former players and underrate current ones in the all-time great debate. I haven't seen a better player in my lifetime than Messi and I seriously doubt there could have been a player that did what he does with the consistency that he does.

I did see Diego in his prime, and I can tell you that he was better than Messi.
Lio scores more goals, but it has a lot to do with the system Barcelona uses around him.
Diego´s and Lionel´s dribbling ability are about the same. (check Diego at 24...he was unstoppable just like Messi on 1 vs 1 situations)
Diego had better court vision, but I guess that came with age/experience.
For free kicks, Diego had a glove in his left foot.

The main difference is leadership. Diego was a leader. Messi is not. Xavi is Barca´s leader.

Diego had Messi´s talent + Xavi´s leadership.

Diego played for fucking Napoli!!! and battled against the strongest clubs in Italy (Milan, Juve) winning a couple of local leagues.
Imagine the Charlotte Bobcats winning the NBA title...

Personal problems aside,As a soccer player, Diego >> Messi

[TDMVPDPOY]

is the xavi led barca team better then the one when ronaldinho was at barca?

[it's me]

is the xavi led barca team better then the one when ronaldinho was at barca?

It could be... but Dino had Eto.... Xavi has the overrated Villa... so Dino's team was better.

[DAF86]

I did see Diego in his prime, and I can tell you that he was better than Messi.
Lio scores more goals, but it has a lot to do with the system Barcelona uses around him.
Diego´s and Lionel´s dribbling ability are about the same. (check Diego at 24...he was unstoppable just like Messi on 1 vs 1 situations)
Diego had better court vision, but I guess that came with age/experience.
For free kicks, Diego had a glove in his left foot.

The main difference is leadership. Diego was a leader. Messi is not. Xavi is Barca´s leader.

Diego had Messi´s talent + Xavi´s leadership.

Diego played for fucking Napoli!!! and battled against the strongest clubs in Italy (Milan, Juve) winning a couple of local leagues.
Imagine the Charlotte Bobcats winning the NBA title...

Personal problems aside,As a soccer player, Diego >> Messi


Your word against Varskys I guess although I seriously doubt there's the need for two of these > .

Free kick ability isn't something you lose with age and I remember that Maradona wasn't particularly elite there when I watched him.

Maradona had better court vision? Did he constantly give 4 or 5 "goal passes" per game like Messi does?

Diego played in a stacked Barca team and didn't do much there. Those are circumstances, football isn't math. Maybe if he would have gone to Juventus instead of Napoli he wouldn't have won anything. Also you're trying to make it seem like if he played alongside a bunch of amateurs in Napoli. He had a great team behind there.

[resistanze]

Your word against Varskys I guess although I seriously doubt there's the need for two of these > .

Free kick ability isn't something you lose with age and I remember that Maradona wasn't particularly elite there when I watched him.

Maradona had better court vision? Did he constantly give 4 or 5 "goal passes" per game like Messi does?

Diego played in a stacked Barca team and didn't do much there. Those are circumstances, football isn't math. Maybe if he would have gone to Juventus instead of Napoli he wouldn't have won anything. Also you're trying to make it seem like if he played alongside a bunch of amateurs in Napoli. He had a great team behind there.
Well I'm sure most of the world would rank Maradona over Messi so I don't know why e Varskys' word is gospel. Pippen said LeBron may be the greatest of all-time, doesn't really mean shit.

And like it or not, World Cup matters, especially in the legendary way Diego carried his team. If that shouldn't count for something then we should discount other team accomplishments like Champions League.The fact that it happens once every 4 years makes it even more impressive, imo.

Diego also suffered from injuries in his Barca stint, and you could just as easily make the opposite argument that Messi hasn't done anything without a stacked team. Which would be unfair, but those are the facts.

[DAF86]

Well I'm sure most of the world would rank Maradona over Messi so I don't know why e Varskys' word is gospel. Pippen said LeBron may be the greatest of all-time, doesn't really mean shit.

And many of those probably have seen Maradona only on highlights. Where did I say Varsky's word is gospel?


And like it or not, World Cup matters, especially in the legendary way Diego carried his team. If that shouldn't count for something then we should discount other team accomplishments like Champions League.The fact that it happens once every 4 years makes it even more impressive, imo.

What Diego did in 86 was impressive, probably the greatest performance ever by an individual on a single tournament, and of course the WC matters but it's not the begin and end of it all, that's what I'm trying to say. Specially when it isn't even the top competition in terms of talent.


Diego also suffered from injuries in his Barca stint, and you could just as easily make the opposite argument that Messi hasn't done anything without a stacked team. Which would be unfair, but those are the facts.

Well, that's exactly my point. It's unfair to compare individuals saying "guy A won in team B, guy B wouldn't have done that". You don't know.

[resistanze]

And many of those probably have seen Maradona only on highlights. Where did I say Varsky's word is gospel?
:lol Maradona isn't that old. A significant number of the current world's population saw Maradona play - it was in '86 when he dominated the WC and was leading Napoli to titles. You obviously put a lot into what Varsky said and that's fine, but one man's opinion is just another opinion.

What Diego did in 86 was impressive, probably the greatest performance ever by an individual on a single tournament, and of course the WC matters but it's not the begin and end of it all, that's what I'm trying to say. Specially when it isn't even the top competition in terms of talent.The WC is a big part. It's not as if players just suddenly get up and go play in the WC for a month. It takes years of qualifying and training. Winning on the biggest stage in soccer elevates players into greatness. Obviously Messi will still be an all-time great even if he doesn't win, but people will look beyond individual skills of a player when discussing their greatness.

I don't know what you mean by it isn't the top competition in terms of talent. All the best players in the world play in the WC, their distribution is obviously different but they're all there. I mean it's not as if BATE, Shanktar and APOEL are a measuring stick for talent in the CL. Additionally you've said yourself the current Barca team is possibly the greatest in history, so it's not as if the CL talent poses an additional obstacle for Messi and Barca, even if CL is somewhat better in terms of talent.


Well, that's exactly my point. It's unfair to compare individuals saying "guy A won in team B, guy B wouldn't have done that". You don't know.
That's fine, I never use ifs and but for arugments for players. But you implied Maradona is overrated, but what Maradona accomplished in his entire career is more impressive than what Messi has done so far. Obviously that's just my opinion.

[Muser]

People tend to overrate former players and underrate current ones in the all-time great debate. I haven't seen a better player in my lifetime than Messi and I seriously doubt there could have been a player that did what he does with the consistency that he does.

Pele is the only player I'd definitely put ahead Messi right now.

[ogait]

Not too long ago I heard my favorite sport's journalist Juan Pablo Varsky say that "Messi was the best Maradona everyday", I haven't had the chance to see Maradona play on his prime but if Varsky (a known Maradona fan) says that I bealive him.

People tend to overrate former players and underrate current ones in the all-time great debate. I haven't seen a better player in my lifetime than Messi and I seriously doubt there could have been a player that did what he does with the consistency that he does.

The unbiased Argentinian opinion.
I just love how Argentinians pretend its a 2 man race between Messi and Maradona for the tittle of greatest footballer of all time.

[sonic21]

Messi could be the best of all time, but we'll have to wait a few more years until we seriously start talking about this.
Barça being so awesome people will always wait to see what he can do with his NT or when xavi, iniesta... will be gone to rank him.

Pele is the best though.

[ogait]

I think the article is spot on. Ronaldo these days is the guy everybody loves to hate, to the point that his game is becoming underrated.

About Messi place among all time greats I will talk only about players I have seen play at their best (lol Maradona 94 World Cup). At age 24 there's only 3 players I think are better than Messi and he still has a long time to change that.

Ronadinho - Definitely more talented than Messi both physically and technically. Than he decided to get lazy and fat which diminishes his career but still think he's better than Messi in his prime.

Zidane - Clearly not as gifted athletically as the others, but won everything at club and international level always being the undisputed best player on his team. Also played in a stronger era than today's football, with a lot more top tier players and bigger competition.

Ronaldo Nazario - Simply unstoppable, best football player I have ever seen. If not for injuries would be the best of all time imho.

Also note all of the above are World Cup Champions, not to mention continental championships, confederations cup, etc. So yes like it or not Messi will never be considered the goat if he doesn't go at the very least to a World Cup final with Argentina regardless of how many lolliga or CL he wins and that's taking it down a notch already compared to the other all time legends.

[diego]

The unbiased Argentinian opinion.
I just love how Argentinians pretend its a 2 man race between Messi and Maradona for the tittle of greatest footballer of all time.

DAF is an uncontrollable messi homer. how else could someone make a statement like this


I seriously doubt there could have been a player that did what he does with the consistency that he does.

:bang Please DAF, explain why before it was so unlikely for that to have happened?


As for Argentines thinking its a two man race, you clearly havent been to Argentina lately. Most do not reconcile barcelona messi with NT messi, generally speaking he is not rated as highly by Argentines as he is by foreigners. For most Argentines there is no question that Diego was better, and for a lot of old timers Di Stefano and even Moreno were better than either (much like many brazilians prefer Garrincha or even Ronaldo / Romario to Pele; IMO if it werent for injury Ronaldo would definitely be in these discussions). So you see there is always room for debate.

As for Argentines being egocentric (we are, just like most people anywhere), the fact that is that FIFA, IFFHS and other organizations (based in europe I might add) all consider Di Stefano and Maradona to be top5 players all time, which is one more player than any other country. Argentina hasn't had the WC success of other countries, but we have always produced top notch talent since the inception of professional football. Messi is well on his way to joining them, but still has to play at least another 5 good years. Messi has a lot riding on 2014, by 2018 he'll be past his prime to be the difference maker he is now.

[diego]

oh and DAF, no way CL is worth more than WC. you are letting your homerism go out of control

[ALVAREZ6]

oh and DAF, no way CL is worth more than WC. you are letting your homerism go out of control

I don't think he means it's worth more, but that you can find stronger overall teams in the CL compared to WC, which I agree with, but that's partially because Barcelona is currently the best team ever assembled, and ManU, Real Madrid, etc. are very strong clubs filled with international stars that play together all year around vs. a few months in preparation for the WC. There's no question Barcelona beat any current national team, they're Spain + Messi + better defense.


But the fact is Messi plays on the best team, and that's why it's easier for him to perform so well on such a consistent basis. DAF, you say Diego played on stacked Barca teams...for how long? And were they as stacked as this Barca? Was Diego at that stage as good as he was while in Napoli?? I think Napoli were his best years, obviously, and if that Diego played with this Barca, I'm sure he would be equally consistent. They are awfully similar players to begin with.

If Messi somehow wins a WC or 2 by the time he retires, he may go down as the best ever, IMO. And I hope that happens because Diego is a total douchebag, but you still have to have him ranked over Messi. It's not like there's a huge drop down from Diego to Messi, but he still has to be higher.

[DAF86]

The unbiased Argentinian opinion.
I just love how Argentinians pretend its a 2 man race between Messi and Maradona for the tittle of greatest footballer of all time.

The only reason I'm arguing Messi vs Maradona is 'cause lefty brought it up.

[DAF86]

oh and DAF, no way CL is worth more than WC. you are letting your homerism go out of control

Who said the CL i worth more than the WC? I'm saying the CL has more talent than the WC.

Barca shits on Spain, Madrid shits on Holland, ManU shits on England, etc.

Besides there's more working time resulting on better understanding on the different teams.

Every reasonable person realizes this.

[DAF86]

DAF is an uncontrollable messi homer. how else could someone make a statement like this

And you're a Maradona homer. What's the difference?


:bang Please DAF, explain why before it was so unlikely for that to have happened?

'Cause I have never seen it done by anyone before Messi came along. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, I'm jut saying that I doubt it. Instead of asking me this, tell me how old are you? Have you seen Maradona play? Did he do that consistently?

[DAF86]

Pele is the only player I'd definitely put ahead Messi right now.


Messi could be the best of all time, but we'll have to wait a few more years until we seriously start talking about this.
Barça being so awesome people will always wait to see what he can do with his NT or when xavi, iniesta... will be gone to rank him.

Pele is the best though.

How do you know Pele was the best? Have you seen him play? Or do you go by stats alone?

The 1.000 goals thing is completely unproven and you have to remember that back in the days games had an average of more than 5 goals each.

Then is the three WCs thing. Which first and foremost is a team accomplishment and second not everybody knows what's the deal with Pele' three WCs.

In the first one he won he was 17 years old, wasn't the best player on the team, in the second one during Pele's prime he got injured and practically didn't play in that tournament yet Brazil having a stacked team back then won anyways and in the third one he was past his prime and again wasn't the best player on his own team.

[DAF86]

Let's asume Messi was Spanish, he would have at least one WC by now, maybe two counting 2006. Would he be a better player now for that? No, he would still be the same but people that go by team's accomplishments to determine a player's worth would have him on a higher note just for that.

[DAF86]

I think the article is spot on. Ronaldo these days is the guy everybody loves to hate, to the point that his game is becoming underrated.

About Messi place among all time greats I will talk only about players I have seen play at their best (lol Maradona 94 World Cup). At age 24 there's only 3 players I think are better than Messi and he still has a long time to change that.

Ronadinho - Definitely more talented than Messi both physically and technically. Than he decided to get lazy and fat which diminishes his career but still think he's better than Messi in his prime.

Zidane - Clearly not as gifted athletically as the others, but won everything at club and international level always being the undisputed best player on his team. Also played in a stronger era than today's football, with a lot more top tier players and bigger competition.

Ronaldo Nazario - Simply unstoppable, best football player I have ever seen. If not for injuries would be the best of all time imho.

Also note all of the above are World Cup Champions, not to mention continental championships, confederations cup, etc. So yes like it or not Messi will never be considered the goat if he doesn't go at the very least to a World Cup final with Argentina regardless of how many lolliga or CL he wins and that's taking it down a notch already compared to the other all time legends.

You do know that you are in the minority when ranking those players ahead of Messi right? I had a Messi vs fat Ronaldo (probably the second best player I've seen in my life) debate not too long ago in another forum and came to the conclusion that there isn't a single thing that Ronaldo did on a field that was clearly better than what Messi does.

Ronaldo himself said not too long ago that Messi was the best player that he had seen in his life.

[resistanze]

Let's asume Messi was Spanish, he would have at least one WC by now, maybe two counting 2006. Would he be a better player now for that? No, he would still be the same but people that go by team's accomplishments to determine a player's worth would have him on a higher note just for that.
So what should be judge Messi's career by? How well he dribbles? Shoots? Passes?

Does this mean if Messi spent his entire career at Getafe, you'd rank him the same on the all-time list? With no La Liga titles? No Champions League titles?

If Michael Jordan was drafted by the Golden State Warriors, would he be considered the GOAT? How about if Magic was drafted by the Kansas City Kings?

Individual legacies are intertwined with team accomplishments, there's no way around that, but its understood that great players drove the team's accomplishments. There's obviously more than just winning Cups (rings), but they'll always play a factor.

[DAF86]

If you're great sooner or later you play on contenders, either beacuse the team is built around you or because you're bought by a bigger team. On international play you don't have that chance.

[ElNono]

I watched both in their primes and Diego was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messi. Like not close.

I'm talking the player department here, not the personal side.

Diego was probably less of a striker Messi is, but he made everyone play. You could just play 8 defenders, 1 goalie, 1 striker and Diego and win (see Mexico '86, Napoli, even Italy '90).

Maradona also had eyes in the back of his head. His passing was simply unmatched. And his stroke on the ball on freekicks or longballs was just amazing. His control of the ball was also a sight to see. You could throw bricks at him, he'll always return a round ball.

Varski was either too young or has little memory, IMO.

[ElNono]

I would also add that Diego played at a time in soccer where the game was played 20x rougher than it is now.

[ElNono]

tbqh, when you see the passes in this video and the misses point blank, you can tell the kind of scrubs he played with. :lol

qjrw9i4hv2Y

[ElNono]

Free kick ability isn't something you lose with age and I remember that Maradona wasn't particularly elite there when I watched him.

Maradona had better court vision? Did he constantly give 4 or 5 "goal passes" per game like Messi does?

From an Argentina guy to another, I can definitely tell you didn't see Diego.

Just :wow

[ElNono]

i thought kaka or even ribery/robben had a chance, but injuries has derailed these guys careers...

ozil and di maria...if they played on one man teams and continue with the current performances in big tournaments, then they could make a case for themselves this decade...but too bad these guys play on stacked teams and get overshadowed due to not touches and tv time on sportscenter play of the night....

Di Maria stock is falling as quickly as his speed disappears... he has awful control of the ball. The guy is pure speed.

[ElNono]

And just to wrap up, the World Cup is *IT*. It has little to do with talent. It has everything to do with national pride, and the fact that it's somewhat of a rarity (every 4 years). Every player only get to play two at their peak, sometimes only one. If you dominate there, you have set your imprint in history.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Di Maria stock is falling as quickly as his speed disappears... he has awful control of the ball. The guy is pure speed.

no shit, doesnt he look like an ostrich...

[TDMVPDPOY]

I think the article is spot on. Ronaldo these days is the guy everybody loves to hate, to the point that his game is becoming underrated.

About Messi place among all time greats I will talk only about players I have seen play at their best (lol Maradona 94 World Cup). At age 24 there's only 3 players I think are better than Messi and he still has a long time to change that.

Ronadinho - Definitely more talented than Messi both physically and technically. Than he decided to get lazy and fat which diminishes his career but still think he's better than Messi in his prime.

Zidane - Clearly not as gifted athletically as the others, but won everything at club and international level always being the undisputed best player on his team. Also played in a stronger era than today's football, with a lot more top tier players and bigger competition.

Ronaldo Nazario - Simply unstoppable, best football player I have ever seen. If not for injuries would be the best of all time imho.

Also note all of the above are World Cup Champions, not to mention continental championships, confederations cup, etc. So yes like it or not Messi will never be considered the goat if he doesn't go at the very least to a World Cup final with Argentina regardless of how many lolliga or CL he wins and that's taking it down a notch already compared to the other all time legends.

theres a few more i think could be ahead of messi....

[DAF86]

From an Argentina guy to another, I can definitely tell you didn't see Diego.

Just :wow

Well, that's what I've been saying all along, I never watched Maradona play live during his prime.

I saw Maradona from 94 onwards, obviously past his prime. I never saw him make so many "goal passes".

[TDMVPDPOY]

i still have to take the maradonna wannabes b4 messi

im talkin about the guys maradonna said who could be the next maradona but failed due to expectations...aimar :(

[DAF86]

I watched both in their primes and Diego was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messi. Like not close.

I'm talking the player department here, not the personal side.

Diego was probably less of a striker Messi is, but he made everyone play. You could just play 8 defenders, 1 goalie, 1 striker and Diego and win (see Mexico '86, Napoli, even Italy '90).

Maradona also had eyes in the back of his head. His passing was simply unmatched. And his stroke on the ball on freekicks or longballs was just amazing. His control of the ball was also a sight to see. You could throw bricks at him, he'll always return a round ball.

Varski was either too young or has little memory, IMO.

I seriously doubt there could have been a player 16 times better than Messi.

What set Maradona apart was his dribbling pure and simple, that's what everybody thinks about when thinking of Maradona.

How do you quantify "passing" to say that Maradona's was "unmatched"?

It isn't just Varsky, there're lots of people including fromer players like Ardiles, San Filipo, Maschio, Guardiola, Xavi, etc. that have said that. Sorry if I take their word for it nono.

[ElNono]

I think the article is spot on. Ronaldo these days is the guy everybody loves to hate, to the point that his game is becoming underrated.

About Messi place among all time greats I will talk only about players I have seen play at their best (lol Maradona 94 World Cup). At age 24 there's only 3 players I think are better than Messi and he still has a long time to change that.

Ronadinho - Definitely more talented than Messi both physically and technically. Than he decided to get lazy and fat which diminishes his career but still think he's better than Messi in his prime.

Zidane - Clearly not as gifted athletically as the others, but won everything at club and international level always being the undisputed best player on his team. Also played in a stronger era than today's football, with a lot more top tier players and bigger competition.

Ronaldo Nazario - Simply unstoppable, best football player I have ever seen. If not for injuries would be the best of all time imho.

Also note all of the above are World Cup Champions, not to mention continental championships, confederations cup, etc. So yes like it or not Messi will never be considered the goat if he doesn't go at the very least to a World Cup final with Argentina regardless of how many lolliga or CL he wins and that's taking it down a notch already compared to the other all time legends.

tbqh, from those 3, probably Ronaldo is the closest to Messi, especially during his PSV/Barça days when he could not only score, but run like a mofo. That said, I don't think any of those are really better than Messi, IMO. All 3 tremendous talent and I have a lot of respect for each one of them.

Messi, much like Diego are very rare talent. The article is spot on in that due to their phisical appearance, they're truly freaks, and that might make it stand out more.

I heard Pele was the best, but I really didn't see him play.
Diego was the best I've seen.
Messi is right now behind him, IMO, but his career is not over.
Francescoli, Ronaldo and Platini rank here, three phenomenal players.
Then there's a lot of steps. You have standouts in specific categories (ie Romario, Bebeto, Van Basten, etc), or great all around players (ie Bergkamp, Ronaldinho, Xabi, etc).

[DAF86]

And just to wrap up, the World Cup is *IT*. It has little to do with talent. It has everything to do with national pride, and the fact that it's somewhat of a rarity (every 4 years). Every player only get to play two at their peak, sometimes only one. If you dominate there, you have set your imprint in history.

And what does national pride has to do with determining who's the better player?

We have made the excercise of thinking what if Messi would have been Spanish now let's think what if Messi or Maradona or Pele for that matter would have been born in New Zeland? Should have they won a WC to place themselves in the GOAT debate?

[ElNono]

I seriously doubt there could have been a player 16 times better than Messi.

I don't know about 16x, but easily 2x right now.


What set Maradona apart was his dribbling pure and simple, that's what everybody thinks about when thinking of Maradona.

You just had at least 3 comments from 3 different people that actually saw Diego play, telling you what Maradona did great was passing, vision, playmaking, leadership.
His dribbling was great when he was young and quick, but he was never the fastest guy out there.


How do you quantify "passing" to say that Maradona's was "unmatched"?

Easy. He made extraordinarily difficult passes look ordinary. Not the tiki-taka BS. If you never seen Diego, you probably never seen Bochini, who was extraordinary at that too. He was like what Manu is for the Spurs. He would manufacture a pass out of nowhere and sometimes his teammates didn't even know the pass was coming, because it was absurd. That's why as long as you had Diego in the pitch, you always had an ace that would manufacture something out of nothing and leave a player alone to score. That's why Bilardo could field 6 defenders at the back.




It isn't just Varsky, there're lots of people including fromer players like Ardiles, San Filipo, Maschio, Guardiola, Xavi, etc. that have said that. Sorry if I take their word for it nono.

San Filipo still has a commentator job? :lol

tbqh, you can ask the rest of the world, and they'll pick Diego in a heartbeat.

Sorry, I see where it's much more dignifying for the country to pick a good kid over a prima donna, diva, coke addict, that also embarrass everybody whenever he opens his mouth, but as a player right now, it's no contest. I love Messi, I don't think he's that far behind, but he has a lot of work to do to catch up to Diego the player. tbh, I expect his court vision to improve with experience, I just don't think he'll just have the precision Diego had. Not a knock on Messi, we might never see a guy with that kind of feel for the ball ever.

[TDMVPDPOY]

xavi and iniesta 2 overrated players man....

whether its the barca system that makes them look good, or its the midfield stacked....

surprise no figo

[ElNono]

And what does national pride has to do with determining who's the better player?

I'm qualifying the importance of the World Cup over regional tournaments like the CL.


We have made the excercise of thinking what if Messi would have been Spanish now let's think what if Messi or Maradona or Pele for that matter would have been born in New Zeland? Should have they won a WC to place themselves in the GOAT debate?

No, I'm saying that winning a World Cup does give you a fair amount of bonus points in the discussion. Di Stefano is widely regarded as one of the best ever, but Pele and his '1000 goals' and '<whatever> world cups' is what people remember. Much like people don't remember much of Maradona in Barcelona but always remember Mexico '86 and Napoli.

[DAF86]

You just had at least 3 comments from 3 different people that actually saw Diego play, telling you what Maradona did great was passing, vision, playmaking, leadership.
His dribbling was great when he was young and quick, but he was never the fastest guy out there.

But still dribbling was what set him apart or are you arguing that? I'm not saying Maradona wasn't great at all those things. I'm saying that Maradona's presentation card was his dribbling.

BTW Messi is also great at dribbling, passing, vision and playmaking. And he may not be a vocal leader, but he's a leader on the pitch non the less.


Easy. He made extraordinarily difficult passes look ordinary. Not the tiki-taka BS. If you never seen Diego, you probably never seen Bochini, who was extraordinary at that too. He was like what Manu is for the Spurs. He would manufacture a pass out of nowhere and sometimes his teammates didn't even know the pass was coming, because it was absurd. That's why as long as you had Diego in the pitch, you always had an ace that would manufacture something out of nothing and leave a player alone to score. That's why Bilardo could field 6 defenders at the back.

Well, Messi is a specialist at making a through pass out of nothing, how many times per game do you see Messi just chilling in miedfield with the ball on his feet and sudenly delivering a perfect pass among the legs of many defenders with just the right speed and spin to give the forward the advantage.


San Filipo still has a commentator job? :lol

tbqh, you can ask the rest of the world, and they'll pick Diego in a heartbeat.

Sorry, I see where it's much more dignifying for the country to pick a good kid over a prima donna, diva, coke addict, that also embarrass everybody whenever he opens his mouth, but as a player right now, it's no contest. I love Messi, I don't think he's that far behind, but he has a lot of work to do to catch up to Diego the player. tbh, I expect his court vision to improve with experience, I just don't think he'll just have the precision Diego had. Not a knock on Messi, we might never see a guy with that kind of feel for the ball ever.

I don't give a fuck about dignifying the country.

I don't see how else could Messi improve his already great court vision and precision.

IYO What does Messi need to do to be on Maradona's level? Winning a WC would be a response I don't respect.

[ElNono]

But still dribbling was what set him apart or are you arguing that? I'm not saying Maradona wasn't great at all those things. I'm saying that Maradona's presentation card was his dribbling.

I'm definitely arguing that if that's your point. Diego could dribble like Messi very early on, but by the time he was at Napoli, he already was good, but not great.


BTW Messi is also great at dribbling, passing, vision and playmaking. And he may not be a vocal leader, but he's a leader on the pitch non the less.

I think Messi is a better finisher. Lio is not as athletic as Diego was (you won't see Lio trying a bicycle kick). Passing and vision is a fairly recent development for Messi. He's still growing at it. He's still far from Diego in that department, IMO.
His leadership is adequate, but Diego was the kind of guy that really set a high bar. The NT was everything to him. So, I'm not going to hold Messi to the same standards. You can be a great player without being a great leader, IMO.


Well, Messi is a specialist at making a through pass out of nothing, how many times per game do you see Messi just chilling in miedfield with the ball on his feet and sudenly delivering a perfect pass among the legs of many defenders with the just the right speed and spin to give the forward the advantage.

The difference here is, again, that this is fairly new for Messi. He's getting better at it. Diego just had the right feel for the right pass, and outstanding precision. Unmatched precision, IMO. Messi hitting the ball is probably a 7/10, Diego was a 9/10, IMO. Free kicks is something somebody pointed out too earlier, and that's definitely an area where you can see the difference in hitting the ball. And it's not the power shot like Gaynaldo or Batistuta, but the curve-dipping precision shot that Messi keeps trying now, but Diego had down to a T. If you remember Francescoli taking free kicks, that's what Diego looked like: a penalty with a few guys in front.


I don't give a fuck about dignifying the country.
I don't see how else could Messi improve his already great court vision and precision.
IYO What does Messi need to do to be on Maradona's level? Winning a WC would be a response I don't respect.

He needs to keep improving and gaining experience. Diego was robbed of his speed a bit earlier than Lio. Diego always used to say he wasn't as quick already when he was in Barça, and his secret was to show the ball, hide the ball, show the ball, hide it, etc. When Diego lost that speed, he turned into a much bigger playmaker. He would try to pile up players and set a teammate free rather than try to make a run on his own. Messi will have to go through some of the same transformation.

tbh, I don't know Lio will ever be as good passer or have as good vision. I just don't know. Diego was one of a kind in that department, and was that good from the get go. When he was in Argentinos and then Boca early, his dribbling had everybody mesmerized, but he already had a great touch on the ball. That memorable far away goal against Gatti playing for Argentinos comes to mind.

But even if he can't improve as much, there's no shame. Diego was the GOAT (from what I've seen). He's being compared with the best of the best, and he's not far.

Messi is the 2nd player in my life I actually make a point of watching him play. He's special, no doubt about it. The 1st player was Diego :D

[TDMVPDPOY]

is messi better then riquelme? given t hat riquelme just like saviola didnt even get the chance to shine at barca...

[DAF86]

Messi was the leader "assister" last season in La Liga, I don't if Maradona ever led a league in assists but I digress.

[joshdaboss]

Let's asume Messi was Spanish, he would have at least one WC by now, maybe two counting 2006. Would he be a better player now for that? No, he would still be the same but people that go by team's accomplishments to determine a player's worth would have him on a higher note just for that.

Which is exactly how you're comparing Messi to Ronaldo. ROFL

Let's face it, Ronaldo is the best player in the world. All Messi has on him is club level success, which means shit. Neither player has won a world cup and Ronaldo scores more goals and is way more talented on top of that. Just look at how many times he is fouled, players can't defend him.

[joshdaboss]

You do know that you are in the minority when ranking those players ahead of Messi right? I had a Messi vs fat Ronaldo (probably the second best player I've seen in my life) debate not too long ago in another forum and came to the conclusion that there isn't a single thing that Ronaldo did on a field that was clearly better than what Messi does.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA............AAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Anyone on Earth would take prime Brazillian Ronaldo over fucking Messi. That is one of the most hilarious things I've ever heard in my life. Absolutely no comparison in their resumes. 0/31 vs the highest goal scorer in world cup history. Enough fucking said. LMAO


Ronaldo himself said not too long ago that Messi was the best player that he had seen in his life.

Like he's going to say he himself is the best player ever. How likely is that? Come on, this proves nothing. That's like when LeBron said Kobe is better than him when he was clearly twice the player.

[joshdaboss]

Pele is the only player I'd definitely put ahead Messi right now.

ROFL are you fucking trolling? This guy is a bum, has done absolutely NOTHING in the world cup, the biggest stage in soccer... that is where players are made and exposed(Messi). To even put him in the same sentence with the all-time greats is a fucking disgrace.

[MB20]

You also have to consider the fact that Diego and Messi played/play two different positions.
Lio is a scorer who sometimes turns into a playmaker. But he mostly finishes plays.
Diego was a typical "10", the playmaker, the guy who controled the tempo of the game.
He put teammates in scoring position all the time. He also finished very well.
About free kicks, Diego was simply extraordinary. You should research a little more about this if you think "he wasn´t that good".
Messi´s passing is very good, but Diego was superior in that department.

So, I have it like this:

Dribbling: Messi=Diego
Passing: Diego > Messi
Free kicks: Diego >> Messi
Leadership: Diego >> Messi
Scoring: Messi > Diego

I don´t see Messi being better than Diego in any category, except for off the court behavior.

[diego]

DAF:
The difference between me loving Maradona and you being a Messi homer is that I dont make ridiculous statements about him like

"I seriously, seriously doubt it to be physically possible for anyone to be as wonderful as Maradona, as often as Maradona, anywhere in the space time continuum"

I dont agree with people who prefer Pele, but I can certainly understand why they do and wouldnt dare try to disqualify him as a player, much less based on something stupid like my "serious doubts". Its even more ridiculous when you start off saying "I only rate what I have seen".

As for my age, it is entirely irrelevant. I grew up watching Maradona play, and there are only a handful of greats who dont have any video recordings to their name. When 80 year old men can remember things you did 50, 60 years before, you were great, to me its that simple.

I read the thread again and there is more garbage from you. You say you didnt watch Maradona play till the 90s, tell me then where did you get that early 80s barca was stacked, or Napoli for that matter? Its one thing to have other good players, its another to have reserves better than most teams starters like Barca does now. early 80's barca was a good team but not particularly strong, and I doubt you can name a single player without looking it up, and once you do you'll have to look up some more to see who was any good. Diego missed near half his games in his Barca stint. Napoli didnt start winning till they got some better players to go with Diego, but they were still nothing compared to the rosters of Juve and Milan.


European clubs have only recently taken away the limit on foreign players, only recently have they really been able to make their economic difference notable, until then it was unthinkable for a club to have a better roster than a powerhouse NT. even then, the argument that the CL has a better talent pool or a better strategic level than NT is silly. Anyone, be it a player, a coach, a fan, anyone will tell you that NT >> club, the intensity is on another level. for you to imply that messi's CL performances are worth more than diego's WC performances is just childish. and if you want to get into that kind of comparison, then its just as easy to say that diego's club performances are superior to messi's NT performance.

I think its great that messi has improved as a playmaker, but you are the one who is being unfair by comparing a 24 year old to a legend. let the kid play, how he plays, and do the measuring after.


this is the last I argue with you because you cant help yourself. but do yourself a favor and go watch diego freekicks on youtube, its beautiful.

[ElNono]

Which is exactly how you're comparing Messi to Ronaldo. ROFL

Let's face it, Ronaldo is the best player in the world. All Messi has on him is club level success, which means shit. Neither player has won a world cup and Ronaldo scores more goals and is way more talented on top of that. Just look at how many times he is fouled, players can't defend him.

:lmao

Messi already won more than Gaynaldo at the NT level too

[DAF86]

DAF:
The difference between me loving Maradona and you being a Messi homer is that I dont make ridiculous statements about him like

"I seriously, seriously doubt it to be physically possible for anyone to be as wonderful as Maradona, as often as Maradona, anywhere in the space time continuum"

I have never said things like that, I get that you are a little angry but you shouldn't be making shit up just for the sake of arguing.


I dont agree with people who prefer Pele, but I can certainly understand why they do and wouldnt dare try to disqualify him as a player, much less based on something stupid like my "serious doubts". Its even more ridiculous when you start off saying "I only rate what I have seen".

I didn't argue anything, I just posted some facts that I didn't need to see live to know them. Just by doing a little research you can know that kind of stuff. Look how I never said aything about Pele as a player. Why do you not agree with Pele beign the best? Have you seen him play?


As for my age, it is entirely irrelevant. I grew up watching Maradona play, and there are only a handful of greats who dont have any video recordings to their name. When 80 year old men can remember things you did 50, 60 years before, you were great, to me its that simple.

I don't know what this has to do with anything, 50 year from now I will remember Rojas "vaselina" goal in la bombonera and he wasn't a great player.


I read the thread again and there is more garbage from you. You say you didnt watch Maradona play till the 90s, tell me then where did you get that early 80s barca was stacked, or Napoli for that matter? Its one thing to have other good players, its another to have reserves better than most teams starters like Barca does now. early 80's barca was a good team but not particularly strong, and I doubt you can name a single player without looking it up, and once you do you'll have to look up some more to see who was any good. Diego missed near half his games in his Barca stint. Napoli didnt start winning till they got some better players to go with Diego, but they were still nothing compared to the rosters of Juve and Milan.

Garbage? Again that's the kind of thing you don't need to watch live to know. Very few people have seen Russell's Celtics play live but everybody knows those team were stacked, well the same happens here. I didn't see those teams play but I know what players played on them and I know what "fame" they had back then.


European clubs have only recently taken away the limit on foreign players, only recently have they really been able to make their economic difference notable, until then it was unthinkable for a club to have a better roster than a powerhouse NT. even then, the argument that the CL has a better talent pool or a better strategic level than NT is silly. Anyone, be it a player, a coach, a fan, anyone will tell you that NT >> club, the intensity is on another level. for you to imply that messi's CL performances are worth more than diego's WC performances is just childish. and if you want to get into that kind of comparison, then its just as easy to say that diego's club performances are superior to messi's NT performance.

Oh noes, the intensity. Look, the only thing I said is that the level of teams and play is superior on the CL than in the WC and every person capable of doing some reasoning knows this. I don't know why you keep implying things that I haven't said, when did I say that Messi's CL's performances are worth more than Maradona's WC performances?


I think its great that messi has improved as a playmaker, but you are the one who is being unfair by comparing a 24 year old to a legend. let the kid play, how he plays, and do the measuring after.


At age 24 he has done more than most legends.


this is the last I argue with you because you cant help yourself. but do yourself a favor and go watch diego freekicks on youtube, its beautiful.

I have done that already, Maradona is by far the player I have seen the most of in youtube.

And I'm sorry but it's not my problem that you get mad when arguing on the internet.

[DAF86]

You also have to consider the fact that Diego and Messi played/play two different positions.
Lio is a scorer who sometimes turns into a playmaker. But he mostly finishes plays.
Diego was a typical "10", the playmaker, the guy who controled the tempo of the game.
He put teammates in scoring position all the time. He also finished very well.
About free kicks, Diego was simply extraordinary. You should research a little more about this if you think "he wasn´t that good".
Messi´s passing is very good, but Diego was superior in that department.

So, I have it like this:

Dribbling: Messi=Diego
Passing: Diego > Messi
Free kicks: Diego >> Messi
Leadership: Diego >> Messi
Scoring: Messi > Diego

I don´t see Messi being better than Diego in any category, except for off the court behavior.

Diego in Napoli and in the '86 WC played as a forward.

[ElNono]

He really, really didn't play 'forward', unless you're saying guys like Xavi or Riquelme are forwards. He played the old classic Argentina #10, who sat between the midfielders and the (normally lone) striker. In Mexico '86, the lone guy up top was Valdano. In Napoli, Careca. In Italy '90 Caniggia.

Teams don't really play that way as much anymore, because that classic #10 is an almost extinct player. People complain that Messi has to come back down too much when he plays in the NT to get the ball, but that's exactly where Diego would pick it up. Messi is just a different player with a different role in Barça.

[Muser]

How do you know Pele was the best? Have you seen him play? Or do you go by stats alone?

The 1.000 goals thing is completely unproven and you have to remember that back in the days games had an average of more than 5 goals each.

Then is the three WCs thing. Which first and foremost is a team accomplishment and second not everybody knows what's the deal with Pele' three WCs.

In the first one he won he was 17 years old, wasn't the best player on the team, in the second one during Pele's prime he got injured and practically didn't play in that tournament yet Brazil having a stacked team back then won anyways and in the third one he was past his prime and again wasn't the best player on his own team.


I grew up watching tapes my dad had of the Brazil teams in the 50's and 60's, and of all the players i've seen play he was the best. Just my opinion.

[ALVAREZ6]

is messi better then riquelme?

just shut up already you wanker

[ogait]

You do know that you are in the minority when ranking those players ahead of Messi right? I had a Messi vs fat Ronaldo (probably the second best player I've seen in my life) debate not too long ago in another forum and came to the conclusion that there isn't a single thing that Ronaldo did on a field that was clearly better than what Messi does.

Ronaldo himself said not too long ago that Messi was the best player that he had seen in his life.

Hum, talk about minority when you are practically the only guy who thinks Messi is the best player of all time at age 24.

I on the other hand can't really score that much on originality since pretty much any list of all time players will rank both Zidane and Ronaldo ahead of Messi, which really isn't surprising considering they are both retired World Cup winners, multiple football player of the year awards winners etc, and Messi still has a long playing time ahead of him.

Not that I really care much about those lists but since you brought up the subject, you're picks are certainly much more unconventional than mines.

[Jodelo]

Xavi is the best player in the world, not Messi!

He is not even the leader of Barcelona, he is nothing without Xavi and Iniesta and now even Cesc...

[DAF86]

Hum, talk about minority when you are practically the only guy who thinks Messi is the best player of all time at age 24.

I on the other hand can't really score that much on originality since pretty much any list of all time players will rank both Zidane and Ronaldo ahead of Messi, which really isn't surprising considering they are both retired World Cup winners, multiple football player of the year awards winners etc, and Messi still has a long playing time ahead of him.

Not that I really care much about those lists but since you brought up the subject, you're picks are certainly much more unconventional than mines.

First: When have I said that Messi is the best player ever?

Second: Most people that saw all of those players (Messi, Zidane, Ronaldo) play would say that Messi is the better of the lot regardless of titles.

[DAF86]

He really, really didn't play 'forward', unless you're saying guys like Xavi or Riquelme are forwards. He played the old classic Argentina #10, who sat between the midfielders and the (normally lone) striker. In Mexico '86, the lone guy up top was Valdano. In Napoli, Careca. In Italy '90 Caniggia.

Teams don't really play that way as much anymore, because that classic #10 is an almost extinct player. People complain that Messi has to come back down too much when he plays in the NT to get the ball, but that's exactly where Diego would pick it up. Messi is just a different player with a different role in Barça.

The old Argentina #10 usually plays as the guy between the miedfielders and two forwards, Burruchaga was that man in '86 and '90 and in Napoli Maradona played as one of the forwards in a 4-4-2.

[DAF86]

Humberto Maschio: "I played with Distefano and Pele, I saw Maradona play, Messi is better than all of them".

http://lv12.com.ar/VerNotaCompleta.py?IDNOTA=97779

[ElNono]

The old Argentina #10 usually plays as the guy between the miedfielders and two forwards, Burruchaga was that man in '86 and '90 and in Napoli Maradona played as one of the forwards in a 4-4-2.

But Burruchaga was never a #10. He always played right side attacking-midfielder, and sometimes striker. The only full-time striker we had was Valdano. Bilardo actually used Pasculli, which was another striker in a 4-4-2 against Uruguay. But after that, he dropped him and put in Enrique to play a 3-5-2, which was more of a 3-5-1-1, since Diego was basically allowed to roam everywhere. Go take a look at the games. Diego always got the ball pretty much exactly at midfield.

Bilardo always gets a lot of shit, but that team was very compact. Everybody went up and down (except Valdano) in a block. Argentina hasn't played like that in a long time, and it shows.

[ElNono]

Humberto Maschio: "I played with Distefano and Pele, I saw Maradona play, Messi is better than all of them".

http://lv12.com.ar/VerNotaCompleta.py?IDNOTA=97779

I didn't see Pele or Di Stefano. But I disagree about Diego.

[DAF86]

But Burruchaga was never a #10. He always played right side attacking-midfielder, and sometimes striker. The only full-time striker we had was Valdano. Bilardo actually used Pasculli, which was another striker in a 4-4-2 against Uruguay. But after that, he dropped him and put in Enrique to play a 3-5-2, which was more of a 3-5-1-1, since Diego was basically allowed to roam everywhere. Go take a look at the games. Diego always got the ball pretty much exactly at midfield.

Bilardo always gets a lot of shit, but that team was very compact. Everybody went up and down (except Valdano) in a block. Argentina hasn't played like that in a long time, and it shows.

I don't know if Burruchaga was never a true #10 but that's the postition he played during those WC's, well actually he played the "enganche" postion 'cause originally the number ten position in argentina is the left miedfielder.

I've seen a lot of that WC, Maradona usually chilled and rested up there while Argentina was defending and then he had the liberty to move anywhere.

[ElNono]

I don't know if Burruchaga was never a true #10 but that's the postition he played during those WC's, well actually he played the "enganche" postion 'cause originally the number ten position in argentina is the left miedfielder.

I've seen a lot of that WC, Maradona usually chilled and rested up there while Argentina was defending and then he had the liberty to move anywhere.[/QUOTE]

Well, he certainly wasn't a defender if that's your point.

Here's a good writeup on the game against England that shows what I'm talking about, tactically wise:

The Tactical View: England vs. Argentina (http://scheidtcast.com/2011/06/08/the-tactical-view-england-vs-argentina-1986/)

Notice the graph. It was basically the introduction of the 3-5-2 at the international level. Obviously, when you have a player like Maradona, it's a lot easier.

[ogait]

First: When have I said that Messi is the best player ever?

Haven't you been arguing that the entire thread?


Second: Most people that saw all of those players (Messi, Zidane, Ronaldo) play would say that Messi is the better of the lot regardless of titles.

Judging by the quotes you made in this thread, by most people you mean: Argentinian reporters, Argentinian former players, Argentinians in general, and also current coach and current team mate. All of the highest impartiality I must add.

[scott]

I think the fact that people even debate a 24 year old Messi as GOAT is pretty damn impressive.

[cheguevara]

I think the fact that people even debate a 24 year old Messi as GOAT is pretty damn impressive.

only an idiot would debate this. Messi can't even beat Bolivia in Buenos Aires.

Until he wins at national team level he is just a good club player lucky to play in the best club in the world.

yeah, he's probably best player in the world, but GOAT??? :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[ALVAREZ6]

joshdafaggot, that guy who's cock you want in your mouth so badly just allowed his Portuguese side lose to Denmark today, and has been far more successful than Messi has with his country :lol.

[DAF86]

Haven't you been arguing that the entire thread?

No.


Judging by the quotes you made in this thread, by most people you mean: Argentinian reporters, Argentinian former players, Argentinians in general, and also current coach and current team mate. All of the highest impartiality I must add.

Cruyff, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Salas, Francescoli, Zaragoza's coach 2 years ago (not know his name) and many others non-Argies/current teammates have said that Messi is the best player they have seen (or tied in first with Maradona, Pele).

Let's make a poll right here, people of spurstalk if you have to chose among Zidane, Ronaldo and Messi to have on your team who would you pick? Be honest please.

[ogait]

No.

So you have only argued that Messi is better than Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, etc ... but amazingly that does not equal the best player ever.

Anyway I made a pretty fair acesement that it is too soon to put Messi ahead of those players, even though I don't think it's far fetched that he will eventually.

If I really wanted to argue against Messi I would say that he plays in the same club since he was 11, that he shines in a stacked team full of European and World Champions, which btw was already winning all kinds of trophy's when Ronaldinho was their best player, and that Messi has never done anything significant outside of Barca.

But I'll just go with it's too soon.

[DAF86]

So you have only argued that Messi is better than Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, etc ... but amazingly that does not equal the best player ever.

I have only argued that Messi is better than Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Zidane.


Anyway I made a pretty fair acesement that it is too soon to put Messi ahead of those players, even though I don't think it's far fetched that he will eventually.

IMO With what Messi has showed 'till now it's enough to say that he is better than all those players, I never saw somebody play at a higher level than Messi and I doubt there could be in the future somebody that plays at a higher level, including Messi.


f I really wanted to argue against Messi I would say that he plays in the same club since he was 11, that he shines in a stacked team full of European and World Champions, which btw was already winning all kinds of trophy's when Ronaldinho was their best player, and that Messi has never done anything significant outside of Barca.

But I'll just go with it's too soon.

So what? Not Ronaldinho nor any of those European and world champions ever played at the level Messi is playing right now.

[cheguevara]

:lmao Messi just lost to Venezuela in a game that matters, the WC Eliminatories. :lmao :lmao

and some motherfuckers call him the GOAT :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[velik_m]

Let's make a poll right here, people of spurstalk if you have to chose among Zidane, Ronaldo and Messi to have on your team who would you pick? Be honest please.

Zidane. Messi might be good, but he hasn't headbutted any Italians yet.

[hater]

In a World Cup I also pick Zidane.

In club play probably messi cause he will sell tickets.

[hater]

BTW, in a world cup I also pick Ronaldo or even Ronaldinho over Messi.

The 2 brazilians would fluorish in bad or good teams. Messi has too many requirements.

[ElNono]

It just really depends on the other 10 guys you put around them... Zidane was awesome, but he played on pretty stacked teams too (Lizarazu, Desailly, Thuram, Henry, Trezeguet). Brazil always had more or less stacked teams too.

[in2deep]

gimme Johan Cruiff over anybody not name Pele or Maradona

[Jodelo]

Zidane is the all-time best!

[sonic21]

Zidane is the all-time best!

he's not even the all time best french player.

[TDMVPDPOY]

zidanes best was during his juventus days which overlapped to wc and euro...

didnt think he won any important trophies at real madrid besides la liga...

[hater]

he's not even the all time best french player.

agree

QgzwRMtVpgo

[Brazil]

I still take Zidane and Ronaldo before Messi in my team for a WC. Nevertheless I would listen arguments of someone picking otherwise now I would just laugh at someone picking Messi over Maradona.

[Brazil]

agree

QgzwRMtVpgo

thank you.

In reality I don't know if I'm not totally biaised on Platini / Zidane. Platini was just a god for me at that time surely like DAF for Messi. I'm pretty sure I would have argued in favor of Platini being the GOAT back in my young days which is pretty stupid.

[DAF86]

I still take Zidane and Ronaldo before Messi in my team for a WC.

Why? What changes between a WC game and a CL game or any other game between profesionals?


Nevertheless I would listen arguments of someone picking otherwise now I would just laugh at someone picking Messi over Maradona.

Why? What did Maradona do better than Messi that was so laughably better?

[Brazil]

Why? What changes between a WC game and a CL game or any other game between profesionals?

What changes ? really ? :lol

I just pick the safest choices Ronaldo and Zidane have proven they can lead and carry a squad to the highest level, for the moment messi not.


Why? What did Maradona do better than Messi that was so laughably better?

you never saw maradona, I did and trust me picking messi over maradona would be laughable

[Brazil]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Boca_diego_retro.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Boca_diego_retro.jpg)

[DAF86]

What changes ? really ? :lol

I just pick the safest choices Ronaldo and Zidane have proven they can lead and carry a squad to the highest level, for the moment messi not.

Yes, what changes between a WC game and a CL final?

BTW, CL level > WC level


you never saw maradona, I did and trust me picking messi over maradona would be laughable

So did many others that pick Messi over Maradona. If it were so laughable to pick Messi over Maradona for people that saw both I doubt there would be so many people that dare to pick a 24 year old over a guy who his career is over.

[Brazil]

he's not even the all time best french player.

speaking about Platini, you remember that quote ? What Zidane can do with a football, Maradona can do with an orange.

[DAF86]

Good thing for Zidane that this sport is played with a football then.

[Brazil]

Yes, what changes between a WC game and a CL final?

BTW, CL level > WC level

I mean seriously you are comparing a CL to a WC ? :lol you play the CL every year when you play for a big club. In his career a player can play 10 or 15 CL, a player is lucky when he can be part of 2 / 3 WC. Oh and don't come with the level story, the WC is just the most important sport event in the world. It is like the guys saying the euro cup is more difficult than a WC.


So did many others that pick Messi over Maradona. If it were so laughable to pick Messi over Maradona for people that saw both I doubt there would be so many people that dare to pick a 24 year old over a guy who his career is over.

In two or three years the same guys will say the same for another young genius. You pick nobody except maybe Pele over 86 maradona.

[ALVAREZ6]

Speaking about Zidane...

Qgh-hjcDw

[DAF86]

I mean seriously you are comparing a CL to a WC ? :lol you play the CL every year when you play for a big club. In his career a player can play 10 or 15 CL, a player is lucky when he can be part of 2 / 3 WC. Oh and don't come with the level story, the WC is just the most important sport event in the world. It is like the guys saying the euro cup is more difficult than a WC.

I agree that the WC is the most important sport event in the World but that doesn't negate the fact that the CL has more level than the WC, there's more talent all across the field and the teams are better prepared. And no, it's not the same to say that the Euro is more difficult than the WC 'cause the Euro is the WC minus the teams from the rest of the World, therefore it can never be more difficult/better than the WC. The CL has all the players that play in a WC and more, besides they are all put toghether in stacked teams with a lot of time to work toghether.


In two or three years the same guys will say the same for another young genius. You pick nobody except maybe Pele over 86 maradona.

I never heard somebody of notice say that Zidane, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho or any player you choose was better than Maradona/Pele untill Messi came along.

[sonic21]

speaking about Platini, you remember that quote ? What Zidane can do with a football, Maradona can do with an orange.


Bobby Charlton "What a playmaker. He could thread the ball through the eye of a needle as well as finish."

For me, he at least top 5 of all time behind Pele, maradona, cruijff and the kaiser.

[diego]

i'm tempted to continue, but there is no point when DAF doesnt listen, spins and repeats himself. like i said before, out of control.

:lol serious doubts

isn't that enough for you people
the kid has serious doubts anyone before or after could be as good as messi, if that doesn't settle it... :p:

[MB20]

Bottom line is: What we see in Messi today, we have already seen it in Maradona 30 years ago.
They are comparable players in frame, ability to play soccer.
Maradona was "Messi + leadership".

Perfect example: People compare Diego`s goal vs England to Messi`s goal vs Getafe.
Do you note the difference?
Similar goal, comparable dribbling ability with the ball. Both great goals.
But one of those was in a WC, and the other vs a below average team.

[DAF86]

i'm tempted to continue, but there is no point when DAF doesnt listen, spins and repeats himself. like i said before, out of control.

:lol serious doubts

isn't that enough for you people
the kid has serious doubts anyone before or after could be as good as messi, if that doesn't settle it... :p:

I don't doubt someone could be as good as Messi or better what I seriously doubt is that someone could have been "laughably better" or "16 times better" than Messi like some have claimed but please by all means continue I've yet to see a good point as to why Maradona was so much better than Messi.

And please show me examples of where have I didn't listen, spin stuff and all those things you say. BTW what's wrong with repeating yourself, that means that you don't change your opinion and if I had repeated myself is 'cause some (like you in this case) have missunderstood what I said in earlier statements.

[DAF86]

Bottom line is: What we see in Messi today, we have already seen it in Maradona 30 years ago.
They are comparable players in frame, ability to play soccer.
Maradona was "Messi + leadership".

Perfect example: People compare Diego`s goal vs England to Messi`s goal vs Getafe.
Do you note the difference?
Similar goal, comparable dribbling ability with the ball. Both great goals.
But one of those was in a WC, and the other vs a below average team.

Yes, 'cause when talking about those players one goal tells the whole story.

I also remember Messi's slalom goal vs Madrid in the CL, the chest goal he scored in overtime against Estudiantes in the Club's World final, the two goals against Manchester in the CL finals and the hat trick in El Clasico at age 19.

[hater]

Why? What changes between a WC game and a CL game or any other game between profesionals?

club play = regular season

world cup = playoffs




Why? What did Maradona do better than Messi that was so laughably better?

he won a world cup for his country. and close to winning a 2nd.

[DAF86]

club play = regular season

world cup = playoffs

This isn't the NBA, that's a stupid analogy.


he won a world cup for his country. and close to winning a 2nd.

In football you win titles as a team. According to what most people say Maradona in '86 had the greatest individual performance ever by a player in a WC but it's still a teams' sport, Maradona in most others teams of that WC wouldn't have won the title, he would have made them better no doubt but it wouldn't have been enough to win.

In 1990 Maradona wasn't even the best player on the team, Caniggia was.

And an interesting fact for everybody that says that Messi doesn't perform well with Argentina. At age 24 Messi already has 20 goals with the national squad tied for 9th in the all time list with Mario Kempes (an Argentine NT hero), only 14 behind Maradona and 36 behind the leader Batistuta. Barring any career end injury (knocking on wood) is a given that he will surprass Maradona and he has a lot of chances of ending up as the all-time leader in scores with the NT.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selecci%C3%B3n_de_f%C3%BAtbol_de_Argentina#M.C3.A1 ximos_goleadores

[TDMVPDPOY]

this thread is starting to become like the goat list on realgm...overrating players from different eras and not giving the new guys any chance...hence some new guys are overrated as well...

pele and maradona are like comparing russell and wilt...

[hater]

This isn't the NBA, that's a stupid analogy.



In football you win titles as a team. According to what most people say Maradona in '86 had the greatest individual performance ever by a player in a WC but it's still a teams' sport, Maradona in most others teams of that WC wouldn't have won the title, he would have made them better no doubt but it wouldn't have been enough to win.

In 1990 Maradona wasn't even the best player on the team, Caniggia was.

And an interesting fact for everybody that says that Messi doesn't perform well with Argentina. At age 24 Messi already has 20 goals with the national squad tied for 9th in the all time list with Mario Kempes (an Argentine NT hero), only 14 behind Maradona and 36 behind the leader Batistuta. Barring any career end injury (knocking on wood) is a given that he will surprass Maradona and he has a lot of chances of ending up as the all-time leader in scores with the NT.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selecci%C3%B3n_de_f%C3%BAtbol_de_Argentina#M.C3.A1 ximos_goleadores

blah, blah, blah

put a prime Maradona on this argentina team and Argentina shits on everyone in the Copa America

[hater]

Messi = Kobe, needs HOF players around him to carry him to a title

Maradona = MJ

/thread

[DAF86]

blah, blah, blah

put a prime Maradona on this argentina team and Argentina shits on everyone in the Copa America

You mean like that time where Maradona won the Copa America with Argentina right?

[DAF86]

Messi = Kobe, needs HOF players around him to carry him to a title

Maradona = MJ

/thread

Except for the fact that Messi's stats are more impressive than Maradona's. Kobe's aren't more impressive than MJ's.

[DAF86]

I was talking about this with a Maradona fan the other day and I kept asking him to tell me why Maradona was so much better than Messi and all he could tell me was that Maradona won a WC to which I replied: "then Pele is three times the player Maradona was", a red face and screams followed.

[hater]

that's a weak argument.

like saying Bill Russell is 2 times the player MJ was

:rolleyes

Maradona made a legend out of a scrub called Claudio Caniggia. Messi could never be able to do that.

Messi = Kobe

Maradona = MJ

[Brazil]

I was talking about this with a Maradona fan the other day and I kept asking him to tell me why Maradona was so much better than Messi


According to what most people say Maradona in '86 had the greatest individual performance ever by a player in a WC

see ? that was not so difficult

[lefty]

In 1990 Maradona wasn't even the best player on the team, Caniggia was.


Maradona and Goycochea were Argy' best players in 1990

Caniggia scored the goals, but he was set up by Diego:

- The stroke of genius vs Brazil in the quarters

- The set piece vs lolitaly in the semis

And Goycochea stopped almost everything

[hater]

:lmao canniggia was a damn scrub and a bigger cokehead than Maradona

[DAF86]

see ? that was not so difficult

Yeah, well apparently it wasn't so easy for him. Besides you need more than one performance to argue that.

[DAF86]

that's a weak argument.

like saying Bill Russell is 2 times the player MJ was

:rolleyes

Maradona made a legend out of a scrub called Claudio Caniggia. Messi could never be able to do that.

Messi = Kobe

Maradona = MJ

I know that's a weak argument, but it's the first thing that everyone arguing Maradona over Messi brings up, including you in this thread, so I just wanted to use it against them/you.

[DAF86]

Maradona and Goycochea were Argy' best players in 1990

Caniggia scored the goals, but he was set up by Diego:

- The stroke of genius vs Brazil in the quarters

- The set piece vs lolitaly in the semis

And Goycochea stopped almost everything

Caniggia was the most important player for that team, he was the speedster that could make the difference in one-on-one situations and in the counter on a defensively structured team, saving the obvious differences he was the Maradona of 1986, and he was sorely missed in the final.

Diego in 1990 was the vocal and emotional leader but it was well documented that he was past his prime and injured.

Saying that Maradona was the best player of the 1990 NT is like saying that Duncan is the best player of the Spurs right now.

[lefty]

Caniggia was the most important player for that team, he was the speedster that could make the difference in one-on-one situations and in the counter on a defensively structured team, saving the obvious differences he was the Maradona of 1986, and he was sorely missed in the final.

Diego in 1990 was the vocal and emotional leader but it was well documented that he was past his prime and injured.

Saying that Maradona was the best player of the 1990 NT is like saying that Duncan is the best player of the Spurs right now.
Yet he needed to be setup by Diego

Without Mardonna's genius, they wouldnt have beaten Brazil and lolitaly

[hater]

I know that's a weak argument, but it's the first thing that everyone arguing Maradona over Messi brings up, including you in this thread, so I just wanted to use it against them/you.

2 different arguments. Yours is the # of titles, which is weak.

Mine is to be considered in the conversation of GOAT you need to have won the top prize in the sport. Which is the World Cup.

Messi does not deserve to be even in the conversation because he is failing miserably (so far) with reaching the top prize in the sport.

[hater]

Yet he needed to be setup by Diego

Without Mardonna's genius, they wouldnt have beaten Brazil and lolitaly

pretty much. You replace a prime Cannigia with Iguain or Aguero and history does not change.

you replace Maradona with Messi and Argentina has 1 world cup. the one they bought as hosts in the 70s

[lefty]

pretty much. You replace a prime Cannigia with Iguain or Aguero and history does not change.

you replace Maradona with Messi and Argentina has 1 world cup. the one they bought as hosts in the 70s
Didnt Argentina force a groupe switch or something like that in the 78 WC?

[DAF86]

Yet he needed to be setup by Diego

Without Mardonna's genius, they wouldnt have beaten Brazil and lolitaly

The play against Brazil I can give you (either way luck was more the reason for that win than anything else) but what did Maradona do against Italy? take a set piece? Wow, genius.

[DAF86]

pretty much. You replace a prime Cannigia with Iguain or Aguero and history does not change.

you replace Maradona with Messi and Argentina has 1 world cup. the one they bought as hosts in the 70s

Impossible to prove, how do you know that Messi wouldn't have won the title in '86 playing in that team?

[lefty]

The play against Brazil I can give you (either way luck was more the reason for that win than anything else) but what did Maradona do against Italy? take a set piece? Wow, genius.
Well, right on Caniggia'S head

It wasnt a pass;

it was a youcantmissthatshitevenifyouareblind delivery

[DAF86]

2 different arguments. Yours is the # of titles, which is weak.

Mine is to be considered in the conversation of GOAT you need to have won the top prize in the sport. Which is the World Cup.

Messi does not deserve to be even in the conversation because he is failing miserably (so far) with reaching the top prize in the sport.

Yeah, sure. 2 different arguments. :lol

Cruyff and Distefano are in the GOAT discussion and didn't win the WC.

Question: Do you think Messi is the reason Argentina hasn't won a WC?

[DAF86]

Well, right on Caniggia'S head

It wasnt a pass;

it was a youcantmissthatshitevenifyouareblind delivery

crofl I just looked up the play, and not only it wasn't a set piece but Maradona wasn't the one crossing the ball. Here you can see the play, Maradona is the one missing that pass on the counter at the 0:11 minute mark.


LHi810lXsO0

Genius, without that failed pass the play wouldn't have been possible :lol

[hater]

Yeah, sure. 2 different arguments. :lol

Cruyff and Distefano are in the GOAT discussion and didn't win the WC.

:lol what you smoking? I don't think anyone is stupid enough to state that Cruiff or whoever that other dude were better than Pele or Maradona :lol


Question: Do you think Messi is the reason Argentina hasn't won a WC?

let's backtrack a little. IMO Messi at least should have won more than 1 game total in Copa America Argentina 2011

[DAF86]

:lol what you smoking? I don't think anyone is stupid enough to state that Cruiff or whoever that other dude were better than Pele or Maradona :lol


Well, they are no matter what you think.


let's backtrack a little. IMO Messi at least should have won more than 1 game total in Copa America Argentina 2011

Again, do you think Messi was the responsable for that?

[lefty]

crofl I just looked up the play, and not only it wasn't a set piece but Maradona wasn't the one crossing the ball. Here you can see the play, Maradona is the one missing that pass on the counter at the 0:11 minute mark.


LHi810lXsO0

Genius, without that failed pass the play wouldn't have been possible :lol
I got pwned :lol

[hater]

Well, they are no matter what you think.


:rolleyes
you probably think Lebron is in the GOAT conversation too. IMO it takes more than pure skill. You need to learn how to lead your team. Messi can't do that yet. Not if he gets bullied by his own teamate scrubs like Burdisso.


Again, do you think Messi was the responsable for that?

sure. If a guy with limitless talent cannot lead his team to victories over mediocre teams in front of his home crowd. I'd say the blame should fall on him.

[hater]

I got pwned :lol

don't worry lefty. It's not your fault your Iphone could not play the flash video :lmao

[DAF86]

:rolleyes
you probably think Lebron is in the GOAT conversation too. IMO it takes more than pure skill. You need to learn how to lead your team. Messi can't do that yet. Not if he gets bullied by his own teamate scrubs like Burdisso.


Burdisso: "Ponete las pilas pendejo"
Messi: "Pasasela a un compañero burro"

:lol greatness

You can be a great leader but if your team lacks talent and/or tactical order there's not much you can do.


sure. If a guy with limitless talent cannot lead his team to victories over mediocre teams in front of his home crowd. I'd say the blame should fall on him.

Well, Maradona in '87 couldn't lead Argentina to the title over mediocre teams in front of his home crowd. This last Argentina at least got eliminated by the team that ended 4th in the last WC.

[Brazil]

Yeah, well apparently it wasn't so easy for him. Besides you need more than one performance to argue that.

no you don't.

when you talk about 86 WC and the way Maradona dominate he could have stopped his carreer there and we still think maradona is the second best player ever.

[DAF86]

no you don't.

when you talk about 86 WC and the way Maradona dominate he could have stopped his carreer there and we still think maradona is the second best player ever.

Well, I need more than one month of great football to start rating players I haven't seen in my life but if you don't, good for you.

[lefty]

don't worry lefty. It's not your fault your Iphone could not play the flash video :lmao

Wut

[Brazil]

Well, I need more than one month of great football to start rating players I haven't seen in my life but if you don't, good for you.

:lol at one month of great football as it was one month of a regular club competition
:lol acting like maradona didn't play great football before that
:lol you haven't seen maradona but you still consider messi is better or equivalent

[DAF86]

:lol at one month of great football as it was one month of a regular club competition
:lol acting like maradona didn't play great football before that
:lol you haven't seen maradona but you still consider messi is better or equivalent

:lol One month is one month
:lol I never said that, we're arguing the possibility of beign considered the GOAT having only one great performance
:lol I have stated many times that I can't say who is better 'cause I haven't seen both play at their primes, I just posted opinions from guys that did see both and stats.

[lefty]

Guys.......

Chillez vous

[Brazil]

Guys.......

Chillez vous

we are cool with DAF no issue not like you and me arguing about TP :lol

you hater you

[DAF86]

I'm cool with every regular of the other sports forum, tbh.

[lefty]

Wut?

I love vins qui piquent et fromages qui puent

[TDMVPDPOY]

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/971357/romario:-lionel-messi-has-a-long-way-to-go-to-be-great?cc=3436

lol the quote


"Messi has all the conditions to be the best one day, but first he has to overcome Maradona, Romario and then eventually Pele."