Thoughts on Pop comparing Leonard to Bowen

[timvp]

After the Rockets game, Pop evoked the name of Bruce Bowen to describe the play of Kawhi Leonard.


It’s huge for us to have a guy on the team that can do similar things to what Bruce (Bowen) did in the past. This young man has got a lot to learn, but he’s very willing, very versatile and I think he’s got the ability to be one heck of a player.

Here are some thoughts on the comparison of Leonard to Bowen:

-As it stands right now, Leonard's defensive ability isn't in the same stratosphere as Bowen at his best (or Bowen at his worst, for that matter). And that's not a knock on Leonard. He's a 20-year-old who didn't have summer league or a training camp. In fact, he's already playing better defense than I thought he would in his rookie season.

At this point, Leonard has two distinct modes: he's even locked in to his opponent and neglecting most of his team defense responsibilities or he's flying around the court trying to cause havoc. Eventually he'll find the middle ground. That's something you can only learn through experience gained by playing and learning tendencies of each player in the league.

-Being an elite perimeter defender is extremely rare for a young player. Bowen was 30 years old when he joined the Spurs and it still took him a couple years to reach his peak performance on defense. The best perimeter defender in the game today is Tony Allen and he's 30. I can't think of a 20-year-old player off the top of my head who came into the league and received minutes mostly due to perimeter defense.

-Some scouts questioned whether Leonard was able to play small forward -- they said he was actually going to be forced to play power forward. Thankfully, those scouts were wrong. Leonard is definitely capable of playing small forward on both ends. In fact, he's starting at shooting guard right now. Going forward, if Leonard can turn into a legit shooting guard, that would be scary good because he could physically overwhelm just about every SG in the league due to his combination of bulk, size and length.

-So far, we've seen Leonard defend small forwards and shooting guards. Can he defend point guards? Hopefully Pop gives him a shot because if he can, that shoots his value up another notch. I'm not sure he has the quickness but it's worth a try. Another thing to try is to see if Leonard can handle true power forwards. We've seen him on smaller power forwards like Lamar Odom but if Leonard can legitimately defend point guards through power forwards, that alone would be enough to guarantee him a long, successful NBA career.

-Speaking of Leonard's quickness and athleticism, that may be the one question mark when it comes to his ability to become an elite defender. Most of the scouting reports on Leonard said he was a great athlete. In reality, however, he's deceptively not that athletic for an NBA player with his build. He doesn't jump especially well. He's not that fast. His rebounding and defensive play thus far has relied on lightning fast reflexes, great hands and good timing. But will that be enough? Back when Bowen was young, he could dunk from the free throw line and he was always fast. You don't need to be Carl Lewis to be a great defender but most recent examples of elite perimeter defenders have been A athletes. Leonard, from everything I've seen, is closer to a B athlete.

-Chances are, Leonard won't become as good as Bowen was defensively. Bowen was one of the best perimeter defenders to ever play the game, so that's not really a knock on Leonard. But Leonard already rebounds about twice as well as Bowen ever did and he has tools to become an average to above average offensive player. Bowen was always markedly below average by any measure. Thus, even if Leonard doesn't reach Bowen's level defensively, he could still reach the status of championship quality starter by other means.

-If Pop is going to fully commit to Leonard being the next Bowen, Pop needs to start him from here on out. As we saw in the Bucks game, bringing your ace perimeter defender off the bench doesn't work because once an NBA player gets hot, it's almost impossible to cool him off (See: Jackson, Stephen). Once Manu Ginobili returns, the right adjustment is to move Richard Jefferson to the bench. Jefferson's skillset (shooting and running the floor, mostly) works as well or even better off the bench since opposing teams won't be able to key on him as easily. Let's see if Pop is all talk or he's willing to put his rotation where is mouth is.

-One reason why Pop loves Leonard so much so early is that Leonard doesn't foul. At all. Pop hates nothing more than useless fouls out on the perimeter. Pop's two tenets to perimeter defending: Don't foul and don't let your man drive middle. Leonard is averaging 1.6 fouls per 36 minutes. Bowen rarely fouled and his lowest foul rate was 2.3 fouls per 36 minutes. In NBA history, only one rookie swingman fouled at a lower rate than Leonard's current rate: Peja Stojakovic -- and he wasn't exactly the Sacramento's perimeter defensive stopper.

While such a microscopic foul rate is mostly good, it probably points to Leonard having room to grow in terms of being more physical. Bowen tiptoed the line between being physical and fouling. Leonard doesn't have to be as safe as he's currently playing.

-Another thing Leonard hardly does is turn the ball over. In 243 minutes, he has five turnovers for a TOV% of 5.8. To put that in perspective, Matt Bonner always leads the team in lowest TOV% and his lowest number as a Spur was 6.3 back in '08-09. Bonner's TOV% is low because all he usually does is catch-and-shoot. Leonard's number being low is extra impressive since he does a lot more than just stand around on the perimeter. Historically, no rookie has played 500 minutes and posted a TOV% that low -- at any position.

-Overall, it'll be interesting to see how it goes the rest of the season with Leonard. We saw Danny Green explode ... only to regress. Leonard surely will have a few bumps in the road but his short-term and long-term potential is exciting. Let's hope he keeps learning game by game and that Pop continues to bring him along at a rapid pace.

[blkroadrunners]

I see Gerald Wallace potential more so than Bowen.

Great writeup btw :tu

[GSH]

I think I remember him getting stuck with Lowry after a switch a couple of times, and it not going too good. I wouldn't base too much on a few plays, though. Most of all, I'm just floored that Pop would mention him and Bruce together like that. I'm not sure I ever remember him doing that with any two players. And he is usually pretty cautious about banging the gong too loudly with new players. It's too early for me to try and compare Leonard's game to Bowen's. But the comment itself? Pretty big stuff, coming from Pop. I hope he's right.

I will say that I think a dozen other teams will be kicking themselves for passing on him, by the time this season is over.

[z0sa]

Wow, excellent analysis. Truly well done Mr. Timvp.

Most interesting wrinkle for me:


-So far, we've seen Leonard defend small forwards and shooting guards. Can he defend point guards? Hopefully Pop gives him a shot because if he can, that shoots his value up another notch. I'm not sure he has the quickness but it's worth a try. Another thing to try is to see if Leonard can handle true power forwards. We've seen him on smaller power forwards like Lamar Odom but if Leonard can legitimately defend point guards through power forwards, that alone would be enough to guarantee him a long, successful NBA career.

A part of what made Bowen so great was his ability to deny PF's the ball as well as draw offensive fouls when they tried to get physical in response. Kawhi's hands are good enough, but are his feet?

[DrSteffo]

Would it not be enough to be a great defender at sg and sf?

[RodNIc91]

Props to timvp being in great form :toast:toast

Great post! Eventhough I know Ill get it from every poster, Id like to say Im intrigued with how would a lineup of Tony Many Kawhi RJ Duncan would fare. Not permanently of course.

[PDXSpursFan]

After the Rockets game, Pop evoked the name of Bruce Bowen to describe the play of Kawhi Leonard.



I can't think of a 20-year-old player off the top of my head who came into the league and received minutes mostly due to perimeter defense.


Nic Batum & Wesley Mattews

[DesignatedT]

I think Pop just meant it was nice to have someone to rely on to guard the opposing teams best player night in and night out. Something we have been lacking since the departure of Bruce. I don't think Pop was comparing Leonards D to Bruces', but rather the type of player they are and their mentality on the court.

[z0sa]

I think Pop just meant it was nice to have someone to rely on to guard the opposing teams best player night in and night out. Something we have been lacking since the departure of Bruce. I don't think Pop was comparing Leonards D to Bruces', but rather the type of player they are and their mentality on the court.

One doesn't call upon the name of Bruce Bowen lightly when making defensive comparisons. Particularly someone with as much first hand experience of players being Bowened as Pop.

[Muser]

Leonard has the potential to be a Gerald Wallace type player, an athletic defensive stopper who can grab rebounds and is good for 10-16 ppg.

Obviously his defense isn't anywhere near Bruce standard, but hardly any players are.

[acoelho1]

I don't recall Bowen early in his career but I wouldn't consider him a better athlete than Leonard and although athleticism is important, there are other essential tools one must possess to become a lockdown defender. It's not like Ron Artest is winning any dunk contests.

To be a great defender, one has to have good lateral quickness, strength and most important, intelligence. Leonard possesses all 3 in my opinion and he provides better rebounding and has very active hands, which will lead to a lot of steals and deflections. His man on man defense needs a lot of work and should get better with time especially under Pops tutelage.

On a side note, I have been very impressed with Green on that side of the ball as well. Both need to get considerable time on the court if we want to improve our over team defense. They are young so mistakes will definitely occur but in the long run, we will be better off.

[lefty]

I see Gerald Wallace potential more so than Bowen.

Great writeup btw :tu
Guck yeah

[GSH]

The more I thought about it, Kawhi and Bruce are different players, just like this Spurs squad is different than the one(s) Bruce played on. Trying to use Leonard exactly like Bowen might be a mistake, even if they were more alike athletically. For the last couple of seasons, the Spurs have given up way too many offensive boards, and the FG% on those putbacks has been about 80-90%. It doesn't help much to hold a scorer to 40%, if it means letting some big shoot 80% putbacks. We really NEED the extra rebounding from Leonard.

Bruce spent most of his time locked up on the perimeter. Even after his man passed the ball, he stayed locked up in case they tried to pass it back to his man. That doesn't allow for a lot of board-crashing.

I'm not sure Leonard is going to be keeping up with PG's - but with his build, I can see him potentially defending a lot of 4's. So there's potentially some versatility there, maybe just not the same as Bruce's. But those extra boards are worth A LOT to this particular squad. A lot of them are rebounds that we just wouldn't get. (Meaning he's not just picking up rebounds that one of our other players would have gotten anyway.) Anything that cuts down on the second chance points is big. They add up - but they're also demoralizing.

I kind of wish he hadn't compared him to Bruce. I like the role the kid is playing on this team, and I was honestly surprised at how good he looked out there as a starter. It would be nice to have a prime Bruce Bowen back. But let this kid work in with his own game, and make the best use of it.


Edit:

Ahhh hell... one more thing. Leonard is going to figure into this offense a lot more than Bruce did. It's hard to do it all on both ends. I'm not sure Bruce could have kept up his defense the way he did, if he wasn't sitting in the corner waiting for the ball on the offensive end.

Unrealistic expectations can really ruin the perception of a player.

[temujin]

Is this the same Gregg Popovich that defined Bogans, Keith, Spurs "centerpiece" after a couple of passable defensive performances?

He traded Hill for this kid, he'd better be more than average.

[RodNIc91]

Props to GSH as well for having some spot on posts through the season so far. :toast:toast

[DAF86]

After the Rockets game, Pop evoked the name of Bruce Bowen to describe the play of Kawhi Leonard.



Here are some thoughts on the comparison of Leonard to Bowen:

-As it stands right now, Leonard's defensive ability isn't in the same stratosphere as Bowen at his best (or Bowen at his worst, for that matter). And that's not a knock on Leonard. He's a 20-year-old who didn't have summer league or a training camp. In fact, he's already playing better defense than I thought he would in his rookie season.

At this point, Leonard has two distinct modes: he's even locked in to his opponent and neglecting most of his team defense responsibilities or he's flying around the court trying to cause havoc. Eventually he'll find the middle ground. That's something you can only learn through experience gained by playing and learning tendencies of each player in the league.

-Being an elite perimeter defender is extremely rare for a young player. Bowen was 30 years old when he joined the Spurs and it still took him a couple years to reach his peak performance on defense. The best perimeter defender in the game today is Tony Allen and he's 30. I can't think of a 20-year-old player off the top of my head who came into the league and received minutes mostly due to perimeter defense.

-Some scouts questioned whether Leonard was able to play small forward -- they said he was actually going to be forced to play power forward. Thankfully, those scouts were wrong. Leonard is definitely capable of playing small forward on both ends. In fact, he's starting at shooting guard right now. Going forward, if Leonard can turn into a legit shooting guard, that would be scary good because he could physically overwhelm just about every SG in the league due to his combination of bulk, size and length.

-So far, we've seen Leonard defend small forwards and shooting guards. Can he defend point guards? Hopefully Pop gives him a shot because if he can, that shoots his value up another notch. I'm not sure he has the quickness but it's worth a try. Another thing to try is to see if Leonard can handle true power forwards. We've seen him on smaller power forwards like Lamar Odom but if Leonard can legitimately defend point guards through power forwards, that alone would be enough to guarantee him a long, successful NBA career.

-Speaking of Leonard's quickness and athleticism, that may be the one question mark when it comes to his ability to become an elite defender. Most of the scouting reports on Leonard said he was a great athlete. In reality, however, he's deceptively not that athletic for an NBA player with his build. He doesn't jump especially well. He's not that fast. His rebounding and defensive play thus far has relied on lightning fast reflexes, great hands and good timing. But will that be enough? Back when Bowen was young, he could dunk from the free throw line and he was always fast. You don't need to be Carl Lewis to be a great defender but most recent examples of elite perimeter defenders have been A athletes. Leonard, from everything I've seen, is closer to a B athlete.

-Chances are, Leonard won't become as good as Bowen was defensively. Bowen was one of the best perimeter defenders to ever play the game, so that's not really a knock on Leonard. But Leonard already rebounds about twice as well as Bowen ever did and he has tools to become an average to above average offensive player. Bowen was always markedly below average by any measure. Thus, even if Leonard doesn't reach Bowen's level defensively, he could still reach the status of championship quality starter by other means.

-If Pop is going to fully commit to Leonard being the next Bowen, Pop needs to start him from here on out. As we saw in the Bucks game, bringing your ace perimeter defender off the bench doesn't work because once an NBA player gets hot, it's almost impossible to cool him off (See: Jackson, Stephen). Once Manu Ginobili returns, the right adjustment is to move Richard Jefferson to the bench. Jefferson's skillset (shooting and running the floor, mostly) works as well or even better off the bench since opposing teams won't be able to key on him as easily. Let's see if Pop is all talk or he's willing to put his rotation where is mouth is.

-One reason why Pop loves Leonard so much so early is that Leonard doesn't foul. At all. Pop hates nothing more than useless fouls out on the perimeter. Pop's two tenets to perimeter defending: Don't foul and don't let your man drive middle. Leonard is averaging 1.6 fouls per 36 minutes. Bowen rarely fouled and his lowest foul rate was 2.3 fouls per 36 minutes. In NBA history, only one rookie swingman fouled at a lower rate than Leonard's current rate: Peja Stojakovic -- and he wasn't exactly the Sacramento's perimeter defensive stopper.

While such a microscopic foul rate is mostly good, it probably points to Leonard having room to grow in terms of being more physical. Bowen tiptoed the line between being physical and fouling. Leonard doesn't have to be as safe as he's currently playing.

-Another thing Leonard hardly does is turn the ball over. In 243 minutes, he has five turnovers for a TOV% of 5.8. To put that in perspective, Matt Bonner always leads the team in lowest TOV% and his lowest number as a Spur was 6.3 back in '08-09. Bonner's TOV% is low because all he usually does is catch-and-shoot. Leonard's number being low is extra impressive since he does a lot more than just stand around on the perimeter. Historically, no rookie has played 500 minutes and posted a TOV% that low -- at any position.

-Overall, it'll be interesting to see how it goes the rest of the season with Leonard. We saw Danny Green explode ... only to regress. Leonard surely will have a few bumps in the road but his short-term and long-term potential is exciting. Let's hope he keeps learning game by game and that Pop continues to bring him along at a rapid pace.

Not too long ago you mentioned that you didn't see how he could become an average offensive player, what made you change your mind so quickly? (I haven't been able to see the last couple of games).

[SenorSpur]

After the Rockets game, Pop evoked the name of Bruce Bowen to describe the play of Kawhi Leonard.



Here are some thoughts on the comparison of Leonard to Bowen:

-As it stands right now, Leonard's defensive ability isn't in the same stratosphere as Bowen at his best (or Bowen at his worst, for that matter). And that's not a knock on Leonard. He's a 20-year-old who didn't have summer league or a training camp. In fact, he's already playing better defense than I thought he would in his rookie season.

At this point, Leonard has two distinct modes: he's even locked in to his opponent and neglecting most of his team defense responsibilities or he's flying around the court trying to cause havoc. Eventually he'll find the middle ground. That's something you can only learn through experience gained by playing and learning tendencies of each player in the league.

-Being an elite perimeter defender is extremely rare for a young player. Bowen was 30 years old when he joined the Spurs and it still took him a couple years to reach his peak performance on defense. The best perimeter defender in the game today is Tony Allen and he's 30. I can't think of a 20-year-old player off the top of my head who came into the league and received minutes mostly due to perimeter defense.

-Some scouts questioned whether Leonard was able to play small forward -- they said he was actually going to be forced to play power forward. Thankfully, those scouts were wrong. Leonard is definitely capable of playing small forward on both ends. In fact, he's starting at shooting guard right now. Going forward, if Leonard can turn into a legit shooting guard, that would be scary good because he could physically overwhelm just about every SG in the league due to his combination of bulk, size and length.

-So far, we've seen Leonard defend small forwards and shooting guards. Can he defend point guards? Hopefully Pop gives him a shot because if he can, that shoots his value up another notch. I'm not sure he has the quickness but it's worth a try. Another thing to try is to see if Leonard can handle true power forwards. We've seen him on smaller power forwards like Lamar Odom but if Leonard can legitimately defend point guards through power forwards, that alone would be enough to guarantee him a long, successful NBA career.

-Speaking of Leonard's quickness and athleticism, that may be the one question mark when it comes to his ability to become an elite defender. Most of the scouting reports on Leonard said he was a great athlete. In reality, however, he's deceptively not that athletic for an NBA player with his build. He doesn't jump especially well. He's not that fast. His rebounding and defensive play thus far has relied on lightning fast reflexes, great hands and good timing. But will that be enough? Back when Bowen was young, he could dunk from the free throw line and he was always fast. You don't need to be Carl Lewis to be a great defender but most recent examples of elite perimeter defenders have been A athletes. Leonard, from everything I've seen, is closer to a B athlete.

-Chances are, Leonard won't become as good as Bowen was defensively. Bowen was one of the best perimeter defenders to ever play the game, so that's not really a knock on Leonard. But Leonard already rebounds about twice as well as Bowen ever did and he has tools to become an average to above average offensive player. Bowen was always markedly below average by any measure. Thus, even if Leonard doesn't reach Bowen's level defensively, he could still reach the status of championship quality starter by other means.

-If Pop is going to fully commit to Leonard being the next Bowen, Pop needs to start him from here on out. As we saw in the Bucks game, bringing your ace perimeter defender off the bench doesn't work because once an NBA player gets hot, it's almost impossible to cool him off (See: Jackson, Stephen). Once Manu Ginobili returns, the right adjustment is to move Richard Jefferson to the bench. Jefferson's skillset (shooting and running the floor, mostly) works as well or even better off the bench since opposing teams won't be able to key on him as easily. Let's see if Pop is all talk or he's willing to put his rotation where is mouth is.

-One reason why Pop loves Leonard so much so early is that Leonard doesn't foul. At all. Pop hates nothing more than useless fouls out on the perimeter. Pop's two tenets to perimeter defending: Don't foul and don't let your man drive middle. Leonard is averaging 1.6 fouls per 36 minutes. Bowen rarely fouled and his lowest foul rate was 2.3 fouls per 36 minutes. In NBA history, only one rookie swingman fouled at a lower rate than Leonard's current rate: Peja Stojakovic -- and he wasn't exactly the Sacramento's perimeter defensive stopper.

While such a microscopic foul rate is mostly good, it probably points to Leonard having room to grow in terms of being more physical. Bowen tiptoed the line between being physical and fouling. Leonard doesn't have to be as safe as he's currently playing.

[B]-Another thing Leonard hardly does is turn the ball over. In 243 minutes, he has five turnovers for a TOV% of 5.8. To put that in perspective, Matt Bonner always leads the team in lowest TOV% and his lowest number as a Spur was 6.3 back in '08-09. Bonner's TOV% is low because all he usually does is catch-and-shoot. Leonard's number being low is extra impressive since he does a lot more than just stand around on the perimeter. Historically, no rookie has played 500 minutes and posted a TOV% that low -- at any position.

-Overall, it'll be interesting to see how it goes the rest of the season with Leonard. We saw Danny Green explode ... only to regress. Leonard surely will have a few bumps in the road but his short-term and long-term potential is exciting. Let's hope he keeps learning game by game and that Pop continues to bring him along at a rapid pace.

Wonderful writeup!

A couple of thoughts on this.

- I had no idea that Leonard's turnnover and foul rates were so low. That is extra impressive!

- I have noticed that Leonard is not as athletic as first advertised. It has been evident on a couple of his dribble drives to the hoop. While I was expecting a couple of soaring dunks, instead he either contorts his body or slithers his way in and executes an effective layup. No harm done. Style points aside, two points is still two points.

- Leonard is an even better rebounder than I thought. When playing with the starters, I've seen him get rebounds that normally Tim would get.

- While I certainly concur with the fact that playing Leonard at the 2 would be overwhelming for opposing 2-guards, but it would seem counterproductive to me for a couple of reasons. (a) he's not a good enough shooter - yet and (b) the SG position is perhaps the deepest position on the Spurs team. Playing Leonard there would make for even a bigger logjam - especially when Manu comes back.

- I totally agree with your take that Leonard will likely never become as stout of a defender as Bowen. He was indeed the gold standard of perimeter defenders. However with a little commitment, intelligence and hopefully some tips from the Rash himself, Leonard could conceivably get close.

- Something tells me that Leonard will remain steady and continue his upward surge. With Leonard on the rise, I'm also anxious to see if Pop elects to stick with him as a starter, going forward.

:lol at Bonner's turnover rate and Peja's foul rate. Bonner camps at the 3-pt line and Peja was a traffic cone on the defensive end. lol

Excellent takes, my man!

[Spurs Brazil]

He talked a little bit about Bruce


Kawhi Leonard - Shootaround

http://www.nba.com/spurs/video/120113_leonard_shoot

[Phenomanul]

After the Rockets game, Pop evoked the name of Bruce Bowen to describe the play of Kawhi Leonard.



Here are some thoughts on the comparison of Leonard to Bowen:

-As it stands right now, Leonard's defensive ability isn't in the same stratosphere as Bowen at his best (or Bowen at his worst, for that matter). And that's not a knock on Leonard. He's a 20-year-old who didn't have summer league or a training camp. In fact, he's already playing better defense than I thought he would in his rookie season.

At this point, Leonard has two distinct modes: he's even locked in to his opponent and neglecting most of his team defense responsibilities or he's flying around the court trying to cause havoc. Eventually he'll find the middle ground. That's something you can only learn through experience gained by playing and learning tendencies of each player in the league.

-Being an elite perimeter defender is extremely rare for a young player. Bowen was 30 years old when he joined the Spurs and it still took him a couple years to reach his peak performance on defense. The best perimeter defender in the game today is Tony Allen and he's 30. I can't think of a 20-year-old player off the top of my head who came into the league and received minutes mostly due to perimeter defense.

-Some scouts questioned whether Leonard was able to play small forward -- they said he was actually going to be forced to play power forward. Thankfully, those scouts were wrong. Leonard is definitely capable of playing small forward on both ends. In fact, he's starting at shooting guard right now. Going forward, if Leonard can turn into a legit shooting guard, that would be scary good because he could physically overwhelm just about every SG in the league due to his combination of bulk, size and length.

-So far, we've seen Leonard defend small forwards and shooting guards. Can he defend point guards? Hopefully Pop gives him a shot because if he can, that shoots his value up another notch. I'm not sure he has the quickness but it's worth a try. Another thing to try is to see if Leonard can handle true power forwards. We've seen him on smaller power forwards like Lamar Odom but if Leonard can legitimately defend point guards through power forwards, that alone would be enough to guarantee him a long, successful NBA career.

-Speaking of Leonard's quickness and athleticism, that may be the one question mark when it comes to his ability to become an elite defender. Most of the scouting reports on Leonard said he was a great athlete. In reality, however, he's deceptively not that athletic for an NBA player with his build. He doesn't jump especially well. He's not that fast. His rebounding and defensive play thus far has relied on lightning fast reflexes, great hands and good timing. But will that be enough? Back when Bowen was young, he could dunk from the free throw line and he was always fast. You don't need to be Carl Lewis to be a great defender but most recent examples of elite perimeter defenders have been A athletes. Leonard, from everything I've seen, is closer to a B athlete.

-Chances are, Leonard won't become as good as Bowen was defensively. Bowen was one of the best perimeter defenders to ever play the game, so that's not really a knock on Leonard. But Leonard already rebounds about twice as well as Bowen ever did and he has tools to become an average to above average offensive player. Bowen was always markedly below average by any measure. Thus, even if Leonard doesn't reach Bowen's level defensively, he could still reach the status of championship quality starter by other means.

-If Pop is going to fully commit to Leonard being the next Bowen, Pop needs to start him from here on out. As we saw in the Bucks game, bringing your ace perimeter defender off the bench doesn't work because once an NBA player gets hot, it's almost impossible to cool him off (See: Jackson, Stephen). Once Manu Ginobili returns, the right adjustment is to move Richard Jefferson to the bench. Jefferson's skillset (shooting and running the floor, mostly) works as well or even better off the bench since opposing teams won't be able to key on him as easily. Let's see if Pop is all talk or he's willing to put his rotation where is mouth is.

-One reason why Pop loves Leonard so much so early is that Leonard doesn't foul. At all. Pop hates nothing more than useless fouls out on the perimeter. Pop's two tenets to perimeter defending: Don't foul and don't let your man drive middle. Leonard is averaging 1.6 fouls per 36 minutes. Bowen rarely fouled and his lowest foul rate was 2.3 fouls per 36 minutes. In NBA history, only one rookie swingman fouled at a lower rate than Leonard's current rate: Peja Stojakovic -- and he wasn't exactly the Sacramento's perimeter defensive stopper.

While such a microscopic foul rate is mostly good, it probably points to Leonard having room to grow in terms of being more physical. Bowen tiptoed the line between being physical and fouling. Leonard doesn't have to be as safe as he's currently playing.

-Another thing Leonard hardly does is turn the ball over. In 243 minutes, he has five turnovers for a TOV% of 5.8. To put that in perspective, Matt Bonner always leads the team in lowest TOV% and his lowest number as a Spur was 6.3 back in '08-09. Bonner's TOV% is low because all he usually does is catch-and-shoot. Leonard's number being low is extra impressive since he does a lot more than just stand around on the perimeter. Historically, no rookie has played 500 minutes and posted a TOV% that low -- at any position.

-Overall, it'll be interesting to see how it goes the rest of the season with Leonard. We saw Danny Green explode ... only to regress. Leonard surely will have a few bumps in the road but his short-term and long-term potential is exciting. Let's hope he keeps learning game by game and that Pop continues to bring him along at a rapid pace.

Will Leonard have to defer his "being more physical" on defense until he can leave enough of an imprint (with the officials) of being "clean" and not prone to fouling? In other words if he starts being more physical now, then likely he will be whistled for more fouls simply because rookies don't tend to get the benefit of the call. Whereas if he can go an entire year and cement the perception that he can defend without fouling then maybe, he can start getting away with being more physical starting next season...

In short... it's unlikely that Kawhi can end up with such an amazingly low foul rate AND increase his defending physicality BOTH during his rookie year...

edit: great post btw... :tu (This may be a shortened season, but the resurgence of your observation insight this year is definitely a plus... as far as following the Spurs is concerned)...

[SenorSpur]

He talked a little bit about Bruce

I'm always bugged by the fact that you cannot hear the reporter's question. I don't see why these guys refuse to speak into the mic, then throw it to the player for an answer. Jeesh!

[TD 21]

Going forward, if Leonard can turn into a legit shooting guard, that would be scary good because he could physically overwhelm just about every SG in the league due to his combination of bulk, size and length.He can't. And even if he could, why would you want him to? His physical tools are good enough to overwhelm a number of small forwards. And this organization hasn't had a small forward of the future since Elliott was in his salad days.


Another thing to try is to see if Leonard can handle true power forwards. We've seen him on smaller power forwards like Lamar Odom but if Leonard can legitimately defend point guards through power forwards, that alone would be enough to guarantee him a long, successful NBA career.In today's game, Odom is a true power forward. 6-10, 230 (and if you've seen him this season, you know that 230 listing is outdated). If he can play above average defense on him, then he should be able to against somewhat similar power forwards, such as Griffin, Stoudemire and Bosh. Love's bulk and Nowitzki's size may give him issues, but I wouldn't completely rule them out, either. The ones I can't see him being able to guard are the dominant low post types, that could overwhelm him either with their size, strength or both. That means Gasol, Randolph, Aldridge and to a lesser extent, Garnett and Boozer.


Back when Bowen was young, he could dunk from the free throw line and he was always fast. You don't need to be Carl Lewis to be a great defender but most recent examples of elite perimeter defenders have been A athletes. Leonard, from everything I've seen, is closer to a B athlete.Wrong. Battier, Artest, Prince and Bell are considered four of the best perimeter defenders of the past decade and not one was ever an A athlete. Going a bit further back, neither was Christie.

You don't have to be an A athlete when you've got the length and hands of Leonard. He can play a step off most players and still contest their shot or bother their dribble, a la Prince.


Thus, even if Leonard doesn't reach Bowen's level defensively, he could still reach the status of championship quality starter by other means.This is definitely within' his grasp. I wouldn't be shocked if he's a borderline top ten small forward in three years.

He's not quite the athlete Wallace was/is, but he's clearly in the same mold. And Wallace is somewhere between the 5th-8th (at worst) best small forward in the league.


-If Pop is going to fully commit to Leonard being the next Bowen, Pop needs to start him from here on out. As we saw in the Bucks game, bringing your ace perimeter defender off the bench doesn't work because once an NBA player gets hot, it's almost impossible to cool him off (See: Jackson, Stephen). Once Manu Ginobili returns, the right adjustment is to move Richard Jefferson to the bench. Jefferson's skillset (shooting and running the floor, mostly) works as well or even better off the bench since opposing teams won't be able to key on him as easily. Let's see if Pop is all talk or he's willing to put his rotation where is mouth is.Between Blair, Leonard and to a lesser extent, Parker, that would leave the first unit with a serious lack of shooting/spacing. I'd be fine if, once (if?) healthy, Pop sticks with the same rotation he had going, where Leonard enters at the 7 or 6 minute mark. That way, they get the best of both worlds somewhat: strong shooting and perimeter defense from the small forward position, with both units.



While such a microscopic foul rate is mostly good, it probably points to Leonard having room to grow in terms of being more physical. Bowen tiptoed the line between being physical and fouling. Leonard doesn't have to be as safe as he's currently playing.In the absence of elite lateral quickness, this may be the best way for him to defend. Like Prince, he's long enough to play a step off and still contest.

[timvp]

Would it not be enough to be a great defender at sg and sf?

It probably would ... unless he's a horrible offensive player. If he's good to great at defending three positions, then he'll survive in the NBA for a dozen years based on his defense alone.


Nic Batum & Wesley Mattews

Wes Matthews was 23 as a rookie ... but wasn't someone I thought of right away. Good thought :tu

I thought about Batum but while Batum has been billed as a really good defender, advanced stats show he makes little to no impact on the defensive end. In fact, last season the stats show Batum as the Blazers worst defender. I don't think Batum is a bad defender but for whatever reason his defensive ability doesn't translate well on these Blazers.

Would Batum have developed differently if the Spurs drafted him as planned? Possibly ... although he does lack some lateral quickness for an ace defender. Offensively, though, he would have fit right away with the Spurs.

[Brazil]

GSH and timvp with the very good lately !

this kind of stuff is the reason I joined and read ST a lot... I'm more than happy it is back really. This is raising the bar.

[siraulo23]

timvp, what do you think on Leonard's ability to go around screens? He seems to be a step late a lot of the times, and that when he gets scored on the most

[timvp]

I don't recall Bowen early in his career but I wouldn't consider him a better athlete than Leonard

Bowen wasn't an everyday NBA player until he was 29 .. so "early Bowen" predates his NBA days. That said, a while ago there was some French video posted of Bowen back when he played in Europe. In the video, Bowen looked like a James White! predecessor and much more athletic than Leonard is now.


Not too long ago you mentioned that you didn't see how he could become an average offensive player, what made you change your mind so quickly? (I haven't been able to see the last couple of games).

Good question. What had me worried about Leonard is that in college he was horrible at finishing around the rim (I don't have the number on hand but it was something around 50%). I thought if he can't finish at the rim, can't shoot three-pointers and had an iffy in-between game, he'd be destined to be a below average NBA player on offense.

But as of late, Leonard has been great at finishing at the rim. For the season, he's shooting 75.9% at the basket. And while that is probably a bit high and will come down as the sample size increases, he looks like a legit finisher on the NBA level. Leonard's won't be a good offensive player if he struggles to score at the rim -- but thankfully that doesn't appear to be the case.

I'm not sure why his college percentage was so low. Though it happens sometimes, usually when a college player is trapped on a team that has bad guard play.

[ElNono]

It's early, but what I like the most about him is that he doesn't try to do too much. He sticks to his role. He isn't seemingly the guy that starts chucking shots or his defensive intensity depends on his offense or stuff like that. He's been so far a low key guy you can rely to give you production if you don't ask him to do stuff out of his comfort zone (ie: shoot 3s).

[Plumblbw]

Bowen wasn't an everyday NBA player until he was 29 .. so "early Bowen" predates his NBA days. That said, a while ago there was some French video posted of Bowen back when he played in Europe. In the video, Bowen looked like a James White! predecessor and much more athletic than Leonard is now.



Good question. What had me worried about Leonard is that in college he was horrible at finishing around the rim (I don't have the number on hand but it was something around 50%). I thought if he can't finish at the rim, can't shoot three-pointers and had an iffy in-between game, he'd be destined to be a below average NBA player on offense.

But as of late, Leonard has been great at finishing at the rim. For the season, he's shooting 75.9% at the basket. And while that is probably a bit high and will come down as the sample size increases, he looks like a legit finisher on the NBA level. Leonard's won't be a good offensive player if he struggles to score at the rim -- but thankfully that doesn't appear to be the case.

I'm not sure why his college percentage was so low. Though it happens sometimes, usually when a college player is trapped on a team that has bad guard play.

Timvp,

That's good about the recent rim finishing. RE: The 3pt shot, I know they refer to Chip Engelland as the shooting doctor / shooting magician, how much do you think he can do with Kawhi? Can he make him a high 30's shooter?

[Brazil]

Bowen wasn't an everyday NBA player until he was 29 .. so "early Bowen" predates his NBA days. That said, a while ago there was some French video posted of Bowen back when he played in Europe. In the video, Bowen looked like a James White! predecessor and much more athletic than Leonard is now.

funny thing is in Europe Bowen was never considered as a great defender (not that I remember at least) but he was a great at scoring :downspin:

[Bruno]

That said, a while ago there was some French video posted of Bowen back when he played in Europe. In the video, Bowen looked like a James White! predecessor and much more athletic than Leonard is now.

The video: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8kqzm_michel-veyronnet-coach-de-bruce-bow_sport

[ace3g]

Here is the FT dunk video: he is #11 : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8kqzm_michel-veyronnet-coach-de-bruce-bow_sport

lol I hadn't seen that vid either, reason why I was posting

[Brazil]

The video: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8kqzm_michel-veyronnet-coach-de-bruce-bow_sport

:lol love that vid

50 pts for Bowen !

[rmt]

I don't think Pop should put such pressure on the kid comparing him to Bruce. I like that he's giving him lots of time though - wish he would do the same to Splitter and bench Bonner. Feels strange to have a great rebounder at the 3 - getting 2nd chance opportunity instead of the wings rushing back on defense.

Leonard is so un-emotional - kinda eerie for someone so young.

[Ice009]

Leonard is so un-emotional - kinda eerie for someone so young.

lol Ever see a young Tim?

[analyzed]

Great stuff Timvp
This early would you say Leonard is the Spurs best Rookie since Manu came in 10 yrs ago? As far as i can recall I would say yes.

Speaking of the Blazers :Batum and Wallace. I read somewhere that with the money freed up next year with RJ's possible amnesty and Duncan's contract expiration. Either Batum or Wallace could be possible pickups either via FA's or trade. The thinking being Portland won't keep both. With this in mind and the fact that both play similar roles to Leonard . Would either be a good fit for the Spurs along side Kawhi at the forward line? If so who would you rather get Batum or Wallace?

A five of TD, (batum or Wallace) , leonard, manu and tony. would be great, right?

[Libri]

The video: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8kqzm_michel-veyronnet-coach-de-bruce-bow_sport

Wasn't that a second division team? I found this description. It's amazing to read how he worked his way up.


A self-made player who worked his way up the ladder starting from the very bottom. An average player at Cal-State Fullerton. Spent time in 2nd division France, not considered good enough for the first division, cut from there actually. Played in the CBA as well until he got his break. Below average athlete and all-around talent. Learned how to become a good enough spot-up shooter from the corners to not be a complete offensive liability.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bruce-Bowen-1747/

[SA210]

What we need is for Pop to get over himself and bring Bruce back to help coach these guys on D.

[analyzed]

I was thinking about the Athletic comparison of Bowen and Kawhi. While I might agree that a young Bowen might have equal or better hops and speed than Kawhi. What we have to factor in Kawhi's length and yes hand size. Which are just redicolous. There have been a few plays where his length (wing span) have really been useful. (deflections, blocks, getting to loose balls, rebounds the seem out of reach yet he gets to them, and reach in steals) . If you factor Kawhi's length as part of athleticim I'm not sure you can say bowen is a better athlete

[Bruno]

Wasn't that a second division team?

Yes, it was.
Bowen career path is quite amazing and unique.

[wildbill2u]

Bowen was often a liability on offense. He'd remain outside the 3pt line in the corner and other teams would slough off, making the Spurs go 4 on 5. He really didn't shoot the 3 often enough to make him a real threat that had to be defended.

While Leonard may never become a 3pt threat at all, his willingness to drive and pop a medium range jumper as well as to mix it up on rebounds will add a dimension.

Different players have different skill sets. Leonard's comparison to Bowen really lies in his equal willingness to play pressure defense as his primary job.

[SA210]

He talked a little bit about Bruce

Tell me that was a local media idiot who asked Leonard about Bruce being called dirtiest player in the NBA. WTF does that have to do with anything? Morons!

[mingus]

Going into the season I thought RJ should come off the bench as a 6th man. I had JA taking his spot but now that we know he pretty much sucks, I agree KL should start.

I think his ceiling defensively is James Posey, who was very respectable on that end. JP wasn't very athletic either. Mostly relied on timing, length and good hands. KL doesnt have the physical tools you mentioned Bowen had. KL just needs to increase his range out to 3 points like Posey.

[slick'81]

exactly the will,desire and unselfishness as well as freakishly long arms are all Bowen like traits leonard possesses

[mingus]

Yeah but he doesn't have the foot speed. Bowen had unmatched lateral quickness.

[angelbelow]

Incredibly odd thing to say. Puts plenty of unnecessary pressure and unrealistic expectations on the young rookie.

Bruce peaked around what 33-35? Leonard is just a rookie.. he deserves a chance to develop into his own type of player.

[timvp]

Will Leonard have to defer his "being more physical" on defense until he can leave enough of an imprint (with the officials) of being "clean" and not prone to fouling? In other words if he starts being more physical now, then likely he will be whistled for more fouls simply because rookies don't tend to get the benefit of the call. Whereas if he can go an entire year and cement the perception that he can defend without fouling then maybe, he can start getting away with being more physical starting next season...

Good points. Being extra cautious throughout his rookie year might be the way to go since refs will give him little benefit of the doubt.


He can't. And even if he could, why would you want him to? His physical tools are good enough to overwhelm a number of small forwards. And this organization hasn't had a small forward of the future since Elliott was in his salad days. Why would I want Leonard to play shooting guard? First of all, it's always best to push young players. Playing SG would really test most of Leonard's current areas where he can improve including ballhandling, passing and shooting. In development terms, the better he gets in those areas, the higher his ceiling.

And his value rises if he can play shooting guard. While I agree that it's unlikely he's a long-term SG, his strengths would be magnified even more at that position. At shooting guard, his rebounding ability would be a game-changing in itself since there aren't too many shooting guards who can keep him off the glass -- while there are plenty of SFs who could at least compete with him on the boards.

There's nothing to lose if Leonard proves he can play SG. It'd just be gravy. Plus, it'd open up a starting spot in future years with a ton of flexibility. If Leonard can play SG or SF, you could literally put any type of swingman next to him -- from a small shooting guard to a tall, lumbering SF -- and get away with it.


In today's game, Odom is a true power forward. If he can play above average defense on him, then he should be able to against somewhat similar power forwards, such as Griffin, Stoudemire and Bosh. [/quote] Odom is in reality a small forward who is big and bulky enough to survive defensively at power forward. But there's nothing "power forward" about his offensive game.

Comparing Odom's offense to Griffin, Stoudemire and Bosh? Yeah, no, they're nothing alike.


Wrong. Battier, Artest, Prince and Bell are considered four of the best perimeter defenders of the past decade and not one was ever an A athlete. Going a bit further back, neither was Christie.

Artest in his day was 40 pounds heavier than Leonard and was ultra quick. He couldn't jump but that elite quickness on such a huge frame grades as an A athlete in my book. Prince and Battier are both about 6-foot-10 in shoes (3 inches taller than Leonard) and Prince has longer arms than even Leonard. Those two could make up for any athletic shortcomings with height and length.

Christie was an great athlete in his day. Bell is a good example of a not-great athlete becoming a very good defender ... but I think he was a bit overrated and his lack of athleticism held him back. Even at his best, he got lit up pretty regularly by players like Manu.

But yeah, I probably should have stated that better. 99% of the time to be a great defender you need to either be a great athlete or be especially long for your position. The other 1% are the bulldog type defenders like Raja Bell and Mario Elie ... but that type usually gets exposed against the cream of the crop.

Leonard is long but 6-foot-7 in shoes is average to below average height for a SF. His arms make up for it somewhat but it doesn't put him in the Tayshaun Prince category.


Between Blair, Leonard and to a lesser extent, Parker, that would leave the first unit with a serious lack of shooting/spacing. I'd be fine if, once (if?) healthy, Pop sticks with the same rotation he had going, where Leonard enters at the 7 or 6 minute mark. That way, they get the best of both worlds somewhat: strong shooting and perimeter defense from the small forward position, with both units.

Nah, I'm tired of Pop worrying so much about the offense. Spurs fans can't whine about the defense out of one side of their mouths and then support Pop placing so much value in offensive fit out of the other side of their mouths.

As it is, the Spurs have the second most efficient offense in the league. Adding Ginobili to the mix will make it even better. Leonard isn't going to ruin that. And even if the offense struggles at times, I don't care. The defense is what needs to improve by any means necessary.

And like I wrote in the OP, it makes no sense to bring your defensive stopper off the bench because once a player gets going in the NBA, it's often too late.

[timvp]

timvp, what do you think on Leonard's ability to go around screens? He seems to be a step late a lot of the times, and that when he gets scored on the most

That's a great point and it is something I should have discussed in the OP. Part of what Bowen special defensively is his ability to never get picked off. He was so skinny and fluid that screens didn't bother him.

Leonard's bulk is good for his potential when it comes to defending on the low block. However, will his bulk make it more difficult for him to maneuver around screens? We'll have to see. Thus far, it's been a mixed bag.

[timvp]

Timvp,

That's good about the recent rim finishing. RE: The 3pt shot, I know they refer to Chip Engelland as the shooting doctor / shooting magician, how much do you think he can do with Kawhi? Can he make him a high 30's shooter?

Personally, I'd be thrilled if he ever becomes a ~35% three-point shooter. I'm not a big fan of Leonard's shooting mechanics. His release point is low. He gets disturbingly little arc. He also shoots with both arms, which makes it difficult to be consistent. On top of that, his gigantic hands work against him (most great shooters have average to small hands).

Engelland has his work cut out for him. Leonard by all accounts is a hard worker so there's hope ... but there are a lot of little issues that could keep him from ever being a reliable three-point shooter.

[phxspurfan]

I can't think of a 20-year-old player off the top of my head who came into the league and received minutes mostly due to perimeter defense.


Thabo comes to mind. He worked on D Wade in the playoffs when he was on the Bulls early in his career.

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/73943017.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA548EBD8EA0233806644 685BF162A1CD9895806F1E5EAD19E2B4

[ace3g]

24writer 24writer
"He wants to be a great player, he enjoys the challenge. That's good for us,"-Coach Pop on Leonard. #Spurs
5 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

24writer
24writer 24writer
"We're basically throwing him in the frying pan, the way we did Tony. Tony was 19,"-Coach Pop on Leonard. #Spurs
6 minutes ago

[timvp]

The video: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8kqzm_michel-veyronnet-coach-de-bruce-bow_sportAwesome, thanks :tu

If I didn't know better, I would doubt that rim was ten feet by the way Bowen was flying.


Great stuff Timvp
This early would you say Leonard is the Spurs best Rookie since Manu came in 10 yrs ago? As far as i can recall I would say yes.Well, Neal was a first team All-Rookie last year and he has a ways to go to match that level.

Leonard has the potential to be the best rookie since Manu ... but there's plenty of time for Pop to doghouse him :lol


Speaking of the Blazers :Batum and Wallace. I read somewhere that with the money freed up next year with RJ's possible amnesty and Duncan's contract expiration. Either Batum or Wallace could be possible pickups either via FA's or trade. The thinking being Portland won't keep both. With this in mind and the fact that both play similar roles to Leonard . Would either be a good fit for the Spurs along side Kawhi at the forward line? If so who would you rather get Batum or Wallace?

I wouldn't want Wallace for how much money he's going to make. His injury history would scare me off plus his type of player doesn't age well.

Batum would be intriguing. I think he could shine in the Spurs system. That said, I'd limit how much I'd give him. If he's wanting a contract more than about $35 million, I'm not sure it'd make sense.

And for Batum to fit, Leonard would need to prove he's capable of playing shooting guard this year because Batum surely can't.

[shorttotry]

I highly doubt Leonard will continue to start for one simple fact: he's a rookie. In Pop's mind, that usually means the equivalent as injured, unless you've served a decent amount of time overseas (and even then it's questionable... cough, Splitter).

I love Leonard, and I really hope he does earn that starting spot. I'm not sure what his ceiling is. Right now, I'm not going to put a cap on what that ceiling is because I think any issue of his game is mental, and that's fine for the time being. I mean, the guy is once again a rookie, and very early into his rookie season. He has all the tools to play. Pop needs to make sure he gets his minutes, starting or not, so that this kid can get over any mental roadblocks he might have.

I'm really excited about this guy, as well. He's definitely not Bowen, but he's got some perimeter D that we have lacked ever since Bruce's departure.

[Proxy]

Would be nice if Bruce could take Kawhi under his defensive helm similar to Kareem teaching that POS Bynum.

[SA210]

What we need is for Pop to get over himself and bring Bruce back to help coach these guys on D.

[MannyIsGod]

Great post.

What I love most about Leonard is his high BB IQ. SDSU has a great program and I think he was very well coached there. It shows in how few mistakes he makes via TO or fouls. On an NBA team that requires a high amount of intelligence I think he's primed for success.

[DMC]

I think he just meant KL fills a role Bowen filled, guarding the other team's best players.

I really do not think Pop was drawing a comparison at this stage to Bruce.

[Hooks]

Kawhi just injured his first player in Camby, looks like this guy is legit!

[timvp]

Leonard with two TOs tonight. I apologize for the jinx.

[TDMVPDPOY]

KL is better then bowen...

still has a flat shot
still gives to much ground

but his positives are reb, going for steals and scoring down low

[GSH]

leonard with two tos tonight. I apologize for the jinx.

:p:

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Fantastic writeup, thanks timvp. If only he were a little more athletic he could one day be a Bowen type with much better rebounding and offense.

Kawhi will have to keep making up for his B athleticism with the smarts he has in spades.


I see Gerald Wallace potential more so than Bowen.

A less athletic, less foul and injury-prone, smarter Crash. ;)

[therealtruth]

I always imagined Pop would try RJ in the Bowen role but I am not sure he ever tried it. In '10 against the Suns they tried to ask Ginobili to carry the offense and stop Nash. It would have probably made more sense to have RJ burn energy on Nash so Ginobili could conserve his energy for offense.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Battier is 6'10'' in shoes????

[Mel_13]

What we need is for Pop to get over himself and bring Bruce back to help coach these guys on D.

I listened to many interviews with Bruce through the years. He repeatedly said he would have no interest in coaching once his playing days were over. He had seen what coaches did for a living and wanted no part of that lifestyle. He's doing what he wants to do.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

If Leonard is shorter than Prince, Battier, not an A athlete, how is it that he seems to make a play on the ball? Even when he our recovering from being out of position, he seems to have a knack for knocking the ball out of bounds.

[TJastal]

Right now, starting Leonard at SG is a mistake, IMO. He's not ready for prime time yet and this will completely destroy what's left of Neal's confidence. Neal or Green should be starting, IMO and Kawhi should be backing up Jefferson.

[Mel_13]

Right now, starting Leonard at SG is a mistake, IMO. He's not ready for prime time yet and this will completely destroy what's left of Neal's confidence. Green should be starting, IMO and Kawhi should be backing up Jefferson.

[TJastal]

Hey you learned how click on the reply to a quote! Congrats Mel_13!

[Mel_13]

Hey you learned how click on the reply to a quote! Congrats Mel_13!

:toast

It was a truly remarkable post and I just wanted to preserve it for posterity in case you decide to edit it later on.

[jjktkk]

:toast

It was a truly remarkable post and I just wanted to preserve it for posterity in case you decide to edit it later on.

:wow

[mystargtr34]

Battier is 6'10'' in shoes????

I dont know about 6'10 but I remember being surprised by his height when I came across it on draft express measurement history.. too lazy to look it up but from memory he's about 6'8 without shoes which in the NBA qualifies you for about 6'9 or 6'10.

[timvp]

Battier is 6'10'' in shoes????Looked it up now and he's 6-foot-9.5 in shoes ... so yeah 6'10.


If Leonard is shorter than Prince, Battier, not an A athlete, how is it that he seems to make a play on the ball? Even when he our recovering from being out of position, he seems to have a knack for knocking the ball out of bounds.

Smarts. Good instincts. Long arms. Quick hands.

[TJastal]

:toast

It was a truly remarkable post and I just wanted to preserve it for posterity in case you decide to edit it later on.

Eh? What's so remarkable about the fact that Kawhi playing SG when there is already a log jam there may cause some problems for other players (most notably, Gary Neal).

[jjktkk]

Eh? What's so remarkable about the fact that Kawhi playing SG when there is already a log jam there may cause some problems for other players (most notably, Gary Neal).

Because it improves the teams overall defense, while showcasing Leonard's ability to guard mutiple positions. Its really not rocket science tbh.

[Mel_13]

Eh? What's so remarkable

I'm really glad to see you posting again, the place wasn't the same without your unique point of view. So, in the spirit of welcoming you back to the forum, I leave that post as it is for now.

:toast

[ElNono]

I'm with TJastal on this one... wait.. no, I'm not... carry on

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Looked it up now and he's 6-foot-9.5 in shoes ... so yeah 6'10.



Smarts. Good instincts. Long arms. Quick hands.
Sixth the way thru the season, I'm surprised no one has mentioned since day one, Leonard has not shied from trying to quarterback the defense. Saw him in game three out four pointing to Parker what guy to pick up. I naturally agree its smarts and instincts, but I guess the next question should be:

will a scouting report on an unathletic instinct based 2/3 change his production significantly?

[TDMVPDPOY]

Sixth the way thru the season, I'm surprised no one has mentioned since day one, Leonard has not shied from trying to quarterback the defense. Saw him in game three out four pointing to Parker what guy to pick up. I naturally agree its smarts and instincts, but I guess the next question should be:

will a scouting report on an unathletic instinct based 2/3 change his production significantly?

i just wish on the fast break his closer to the action, then just running down court to the 3pt line and waitin for shit to happen...his a good finisher down low....IMO NO ONE IN THE LEAGUE CAN STOP HIM

[Seventyniner]

Nah, I'm tired of Pop worrying so much about the offense. Spurs fans can't whine about the defense out of one side of their mouths and then support Pop placing so much value in offensive fit out of the other side of their mouths.

Whiners gonna whine. I thought you knew this board better than that... :lol

[Nathan Explosion]

i just wish on the fast break his closer to the action, then just running down court to the 3pt line and waitin for shit to happen...his a good finisher down low....IMO NO ONE IN THE LEAGUE CAN STOP HIM

I think it's the system, because Jefferson does the same when if he just ran to the rim, could get some layups and dunks.

[TD 21]

Why would I want Leonard to play shooting guard? First of all, it's always best to push young players. Playing SG would really test most of Leonard's current areas where he can improve including ballhandling, passing and shooting. In development terms, the better he gets in those areas, the higher his ceiling.

And his value rises if he can play shooting guard. While I agree that it's unlikely he's a long-term SG, his strengths would be magnified even more at that position. At shooting guard, his rebounding ability would be a game-changing in itself since there aren't too many shooting guards who can keep him off the glass -- while there are plenty of SFs who could at least compete with him on the boards.

There's nothing to lose if Leonard proves he can play SG. It'd just be gravy. Plus, it'd open up a starting spot in future years with a ton of flexibility. If Leonard can play SG or SF, you could literally put any type of swingman next to him -- from a small shooting guard to a tall, lumbering SF -- and get away with it.

Fair enough. But he's far more useful to this team long term as a combo forward. Even with the shooting guard position in the state it's in, I still maintain that it's far easier to find a decent shooting guard than it is a dynamic small forward.


Odom is in reality a small forward who is big and bulky enough to survive defensively at power forward. But there's nothing "power forward" about his offensive game.

Comparing Odom's offense to Griffin, Stoudemire and Bosh? Yeah, no, they're nothing alike.In today's game, Odom is a true power forward. He just so happens to have guard like skills. A number of bigs have at least some guard like skills, it doesn't not make them bigs. Even if you want to debate that, from a size and even strength perspective, if Leonard can hold his own against him, then he should be able to against a number of power forwards.

I just meant they're all mobile and can beat most power forwards off the dribble. And none are dominant with their back to the basket (Bosh is the best of the bunch, though).


Artest in his day was 40 pounds heavier than Leonard and was ultra quick. He couldn't jump but that elite quickness on such a huge frame grades as an A athlete in my book. Prince and Battier are both about 6-foot-10 in shoes (3 inches taller than Leonard) and Prince has longer arms than even Leonard. Those two could make up for any athletic shortcomings with height and length.

Christie was an great athlete in his day. Bell is a good example of a not-great athlete becoming a very good defender ... but I think he was a bit overrated and his lack of athleticism held him back. Even at his best, he got lit up pretty regularly by players like Manu.

But yeah, I probably should have stated that better. 99% of the time to be a great defender you need to either be a great athlete or be especially long for your position. The other 1% are the bulldog type defenders like Raja Bell and Mario Elie ... but that type usually gets exposed against the cream of the crop.

Leonard is long but 6-foot-7 in shoes is average to below average height for a SF. His arms make up for it somewhat but it doesn't put him in the Tayshaun Prince category.
Artest was never an A athlete. Prince might be 6-10 in shoes, but Battier isn't. The point wasn't that Leonard is as big as them, or as long as Prince (he obviously isn't). It's that, like them, he's big and long enough, to where he can make up for being not having elite lateral quickness.

Christie was a good athlete, not an A athlete. I agree about Bell, but he was considered elite. Another one that comes to mind is Posey. Never an elite athlete, but was considered an elite perimeter defender in his salad days.


Nah, I'm tired of Pop worrying so much about the offense. Spurs fans can't whine about the defense out of one side of their mouths and then support Pop placing so much value in offensive fit out of the other side of their mouths.

As it is, the Spurs have the second most efficient offense in the league. Adding Ginobili to the mix will make it even better. Leonard isn't going to ruin that. And even if the offense struggles at times, I don't care. The defense is what needs to improve by any means necessary.

And like I wrote in the OP, it makes no sense to bring your defensive stopper off the bench because once a player gets going in the NBA, it's often too late.Sure they can. It's about balance. Balance wins championships. The rotation he had, when they were healthy, gave them balance. Both units got some of Jefferson's outstanding spot up shooting and some of Leonard's strong defense. I see no reason to mess with that.

Leonard won't ruin the offensive efficiency, but he could mess up the synergy that starting lineup has developed. Everyone knows about the two obvious flaws in it, but they've been about the best regular season starting five in the last season and a bit and they give the team the most balance.

[ChuckD]

Bowen was often a liability on offense. He'd remain outside the 3pt line in the corner and other teams would slough off, making the Spurs go 4 on 5. He really didn't shoot the 3 often enough to make him a real threat that had to be defended.

While Leonard may never become a 3pt threat at all, his willingness to drive and pop a medium range jumper as well as to mix it up on rebounds will add a dimension.

Different players have different skill sets. Leonard's comparison to Bowen really lies in his equal willingness to play pressure defense as his primary job.

Bowen shot over 40% from 3 SIX times in his career, including an NBA leading 44% in 2002-2003, and shot over 200 3s seven times, so, not just no, hell no.

[++SaiNt TiAg0++]

love the write up however i do think your giving bowen too much credit. i loved bowen to death but he was pure defense.. to me our guy leonard has improved soo darn fast its ridiculous and kind of scary

(i can see how your cautious because of other prospects) but remember this kid was ACTUALLY supposed to be a way earlier pick and therefore i see less of a chance of the kid not coming through with the talents hes naturally good at.

as for his quickness did you see him against durant/martin and others? it was awesome seeing the man child go tippy toes and pedal backwards staying on his man all the way to the rim....ahhh defense !

anyway i think leonard landed with the perfect compliment coach for him. pop can work with Leonard b/cause he has natural born talent. i mean pops only real developed bball creation is MATT BONNER lol im still waiting for his arms to grow into his body

[polandprzem]

Good insight LJ :tu

[crc21209]

I'm just glad we have a decent wing defender for the first time in years....

[silverblk mystix]

I can't wait for Leonard to be guarding Kobe in about 2-3 years...and watching him embarrass Kobe as Kobe's career winds down and Leonard ushers him out brutally...


...having said that...Leonard is no "centerpiece" yet....

[therealtruth]

He's got a good motor which is necessary for playing good defense.

[ducks]

espn announcers said same thing
said pop said he defends like bowen
barry even said it will not be long before he will guard point guards

[howbouthemspurs]

He's only 20? Wow! He has a lot to learn but he's doing really well already! Can't wait to see how good he can be!

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Oh how I love Kawhi Leonard. We have a real SF again. :D

[Mel_13]

Right now, starting Leonard at SG is a mistake, IMO. He's not ready for prime time yet and this will completely destroy what's left of Neal's confidence. Neal or Green should be starting, IMO and Kawhi should be backing up Jefferson.


:toast

It was a truly remarkable post and I just wanted to preserve it for posterity in case you decide to edit it later on.

And one game later.....


My personal preferences (given the spurs will not be able to make a move for another defensive minded big).

Keep Leonard in starting lineup w/ Jefferson. He seems quick enough to handle the SG position. Move Blair to bench, insert Splitter into starting lineup w/ Duncan. This helps Duncan have to do less of the heavy lifting.

Move Manu to the 2nd unit where he can ignite the offense. The turd towers will be a liability defensively, but hopefully with Manu running the show they can outscore their opponents.

That's just me, though, poppycock probably has other plans.

Remarkable.

:toast

[TJastal]

And one game later.....



Remarkable.

:toast

I'll be the first to admit I was wrong about Leonard if he keeps up this kind of play. If he continues to show he can handle the gig in the starting lineup I'll gladly eat crow. Who would have thought a 20 year old rookie would fit this well? I surely didn't.

Tough decisions often teeter precariously in the balance, in this case Neal's confidence level seems completely shot and may be MIA the rest of the year. If that's the case then it ceases to be a factor.

[Mel_13]

I'll be the first to admit I was wrong about Leonard if he keeps up this kind of play. If he continues to show he can handle the gig in the starting lineup I'll gladly eat crow. Who would have thought a 20 year old rookie would fit this well? I surely didn't.

:toast

Anyone claiming that they thought KL would fit this well, this soon is lying. For me, I was just hoping he would get regular minutes as RJ's backup. He's been a revelation.


Tough decisions often teeter precariously in the balance, in this case Neal's confidence level seems completely shot and may be MIA the rest of the year. If that's the case then it ceases to be a factor.

I'm not following you. What does the "it" refer back to?

[xellos88330]

So it appears that Leonard is getting more comfortable with his jumper. Hmmm...

[TJastal]

:toast

Anyone claiming that they thought KL would fit this well, this soon is lying. For me, I was just hoping he would get regular minutes as RJ's backup. He's been a revelation.



I'm not following you. What does the "it" refer back to?

"It" refers to Neal's confidence level. If it has sunk to a level of disrepair then you don't worry about that anymore. Especially considering the depth the spurs have at that position when Manu comes back and with the way Green has been playing. And you throw in the mix that Pop is experimenting (with success) Leonard at that position as well.

Add all that up and Neal better get his shit together quick or he's going to be a non-factor.

[Mel_13]

"It" refers to Neal's confidence level. If it has sunk to a level of disrepair then you don't worry about that anymore. Especially considering the depth the spurs have at that position when Manu comes back and with the way Green has been playing. And you throw in the mix that Pop is experimenting (with success) Leonard at that position as well.

Add all that up and Neal better get his shit together quick or he's going to be a non-factor.

Agreed. (Although we disagree as to the source of his woes, it really doesn't matter).

Anderson has already played himself out of the rotation. Neal probably stays in the rotation for now, but I don't see him surviving the returns of Manu/TJ and then the shortening of the rotation once the playoffs approach.

[Agloco]

Bowen was often a liability on offense. He'd remain outside the 3pt line in the corner and other teams would slough off, making the Spurs go 4 on 5. He really didn't shoot the 3 often enough to make him a real threat that had to be defended.

:lol

Really? You need hit the stat archives IMO.

[SequSpur]

After the Rockets game, Pop evoked the name of Bruce Bowen to describe the play of Kawhi Leonard.



Here are some thoughts on the comparison of Leonard to Bowen:

-As it stands right now, Leonard's defensive ability isn't in the same stratosphere as Bowen at his best (or Bowen at his worst, for that matter). And that's not a knock on Leonard. He's a 20-year-old who didn't have summer league or a training camp. In fact, he's already playing better defense than I thought he would in his rookie season.

At this point, Leonard has two distinct modes: he's even locked in to his opponent and neglecting most of his team defense responsibilities or he's flying around the court trying to cause havoc. Eventually he'll find the middle ground. That's something you can only learn through experience gained by playing and learning tendencies of each player in the league.

-Being an elite perimeter defender is extremely rare for a young player. Bowen was 30 years old when he joined the Spurs and it still took him a couple years to reach his peak performance on defense. The best perimeter defender in the game today is Tony Allen and he's 30. I can't think of a 20-year-old player off the top of my head who came into the league and received minutes mostly due to perimeter defense.

-Some scouts questioned whether Leonard was able to play small forward -- they said he was actually going to be forced to play power forward. Thankfully, those scouts were wrong. Leonard is definitely capable of playing small forward on both ends. In fact, he's starting at shooting guard right now. Going forward, if Leonard can turn into a legit shooting guard, that would be scary good because he could physically overwhelm just about every SG in the league due to his combination of bulk, size and length.

-So far, we've seen Leonard defend small forwards and shooting guards. Can he defend point guards? Hopefully Pop gives him a shot because if he can, that shoots his value up another notch. I'm not sure he has the quickness but it's worth a try. Another thing to try is to see if Leonard can handle true power forwards. We've seen him on smaller power forwards like Lamar Odom but if Leonard can legitimately defend point guards through power forwards, that alone would be enough to guarantee him a long, successful NBA career.

-Speaking of Leonard's quickness and athleticism, that may be the one question mark when it comes to his ability to become an elite defender. Most of the scouting reports on Leonard said he was a great athlete. In reality, however, he's deceptively not that athletic for an NBA player with his build. He doesn't jump especially well. He's not that fast. His rebounding and defensive play thus far has relied on lightning fast reflexes, great hands and good timing. But will that be enough? Back when Bowen was young, he could dunk from the free throw line and he was always fast. You don't need to be Carl Lewis to be a great defender but most recent examples of elite perimeter defenders have been A athletes. Leonard, from everything I've seen, is closer to a B athlete.

-Chances are, Leonard won't become as good as Bowen was defensively. Bowen was one of the best perimeter defenders to ever play the game, so that's not really a knock on Leonard. But Leonard already rebounds about twice as well as Bowen ever did and he has tools to become an average to above average offensive player. Bowen was always markedly below average by any measure. Thus, even if Leonard doesn't reach Bowen's level defensively, he could still reach the status of championship quality starter by other means.

-If Pop is going to fully commit to Leonard being the next Bowen, Pop needs to start him from here on out. As we saw in the Bucks game, bringing your ace perimeter defender off the bench doesn't work because once an NBA player gets hot, it's almost impossible to cool him off (See: Jackson, Stephen). Once Manu Ginobili returns, the right adjustment is to move Richard Jefferson to the bench. Jefferson's skillset (shooting and running the floor, mostly) works as well or even better off the bench since opposing teams won't be able to key on him as easily. Let's see if Pop is all talk or he's willing to put his rotation where is mouth is.

-One reason why Pop loves Leonard so much so early is that Leonard doesn't foul. At all. Pop hates nothing more than useless fouls out on the perimeter. Pop's two tenets to perimeter defending: Don't foul and don't let your man drive middle. Leonard is averaging 1.6 fouls per 36 minutes. Bowen rarely fouled and his lowest foul rate was 2.3 fouls per 36 minutes. In NBA history, only one rookie swingman fouled at a lower rate than Leonard's current rate: Peja Stojakovic -- and he wasn't exactly the Sacramento's perimeter defensive stopper.

While such a microscopic foul rate is mostly good, it probably points to Leonard having room to grow in terms of being more physical. Bowen tiptoed the line between being physical and fouling. Leonard doesn't have to be as safe as he's currently playing.

-Another thing Leonard hardly does is turn the ball over. In 243 minutes, he has five turnovers for a TOV% of 5.8. To put that in perspective, Matt Bonner always leads the team in lowest TOV% and his lowest number as a Spur was 6.3 back in '08-09. Bonner's TOV% is low because all he usually does is catch-and-shoot. Leonard's numbe
r being low is extra impressive since he does a lot more than just stand around on the perimeter. Historically, no rookie has played 500 minutes and posted a TOV% that low -- at any position.

-Overall, it'll be interesting to see how it goes the rest of the season with Leonard. We saw Danny Green explode ... only to regress. Leonard surely will have a few bumps in the road but his short-term and long-term potential is exciting. Let's hope he keeps learning game by game and that Pop continues to bring him along at a rapid pace.

[BoricuaCJA]

:lol

Really? You need hit the stat archives IMO.
He needs to :bang imho.

[timvp]

-So far, we've seen Leonard defend small forwards and shooting guards. Can he defend point guards? Hopefully Pop gives him a shot because if he can, that shoots his value up another notch.

Leonard currently defending Jameer Nelson. :tu

[DPG21920]

Jameer kind of sucks though.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Leonard currently defending Jameer Nelson. :tu

Thought of your prediction when I came home and saw him on Nelson.

He did okay, again, he seemed to make the shot difficult for his man even though he had got beaten off the dribble....it's like paradoxical

Still had trouble slipping through pick n rolls

[timvp]

Tbh, that might have been a fluke though because it allowed Parker to defend Redick. TP is the best player on the team in maneuvering around screens and if you do that against Redick, you basically remove him from the game. We'll have to see it in another situation before saying that Pop is officially using Leonard to defend PGs.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Naturally...in fact keeping Parker more on the perimeter instead of defending a driving player probably was another factor, so an outlet would put him in more of a position to make something happen on the run after a rebound.

I just think it's cool that he is actually on a PG

[jjktkk]

Tbh, that might have been a fluke though because it allowed Parker to defend Redick. TP is the best player on the team in maneuvering around screens and if you do that against Redick, you basically remove him from the game. We'll have to see it in another situation before saying that Pop is officially using Leonard to defend PGs.

Leonards guarding 3s, 2s, and tonight 1s. Seems eerily similar to another guy we had a few years ago.