Swift Boat Vets: What....

[SpursWoman]

are they supposed to have lied about?


Curiousity, you know. :)

[Yonivore]

Well, unless they're experts on the Guard Rules and Regulation manual, you're not going to get much out of DeSPURate.

They're only experts on SWIFTBOATS.

[DeSPURado]

They have every right in the world to be mad at Kerry for his testimony. His testimony is controversial and in many ways unfair if you construe it as representing all people who fought in Vietnam.


They are lying when they are saying Kerry is undeserving of any recognition for his medals. There was no way anyone could know at the time to give him special treatment for the medals. The standards for getting a purple heart (any injury), a silver star, and a bronze star were the same for everyone.

They are also lying about how much they knew Kerry. None of them served on the swift boats with him.

[Yonivore]

"They are lying..."
You have absolutely no proof of that.

1) It's already been stated that medals were used to raise morale and were often given in questionable circumstances.

2) No one suggested that Kerry was given preferential treatment, he's the one being accused of scamming the medal system to get an early homebound ticket.

So, where did they lie, exactly?

[Tommy Duncan]

'Fake but accurate', baby.

[Yonivore]

Oh yeah,

3) Kerry wrote all his own After Action Reports...

[DeSPURado]

Did yall notice the way I worded this sentence:

They are lying when they are saying Kerry is undeserving of any recognition for his medals.

Its pretty fair and doesn't conflict with what you are saying.

[Spurminator]

Are you arguing that one can lie about an opinion?

[Yonivore]

An opinion, characterization, or assessment can't be a lie. They believe he is underserving.

[DeSPURado]

No its a factual statement to say he got the medal in the same way that any of them got the medal. If they want to throw away his medals they better damn sure be willing to throw away their own.

[Yonivore]

what?

They said he doesn't deserve them. That's an opinion or characterization that has nothing to do with their individual circumstances or the medals they received.

[Spurminator]

They're saying he got them under false pretenses.

[Tommy Duncan]

He's just arguing to argue. He's got to find a way to let out that anxious energy with Bush bearing down on Kerry in those conservative Republican bastions of Minnesota, Illinois, and New Jersey.

[DeSPURado]

Again in order to buy that you would have to think Kerry tried to get those medals in the hopes that he could run for the presidency off of them.

[Spurminator]

I have no doubt whatsoever he had designs on a career in politics. I don't think he would deny that either.

[Yonivore]

He's been planning to be president his whole life, his college buddies used to hum "Hail to the Chief" when he walked into a room. He took an 8 mm camera, reenacted scenes.

C'mon, you're not suggesting he DIDN'T use his circumstances to build a favorable Presidential portfolio, are you?

[DeSPURado]

So he went out looking to find acts of bravery to get the medals?

really I thought he thought he joined the swift boats to avoid combat?

[Spurminator]

He filmed himself in staged battle scenes.

Enough said.

[DeSPURado]

You do realize he appeared in the 8mm film for a total of ten seconds on screen? The film never showed him doing anything. He had his buddies reenacting other scenes.

[Yonivore]

"So he went out looking to find acts of bravery to get the medals?"
No, It's being suggested he seriously embellished at every opportunity.

3 Purple Hearts and only one missed day of work? Silver Star under circumstances that have been questioned. Bronze Star under circumstances that have been questioned. Writes his own After Action Reports.

"really I thought he thought he joined the swift boats to avoid combat?"
He did. I posted his own words on the subject elsewhere in this forum, maybe in this thread...I'm not looking for it again.

[DeSPURado]

Every unit commander writes their own action reports. Purple hearts were given to anyone based upon any injury. I didn't make that rule and niether did Kerry.

[Yonivore]

They weren't awarded for self-inflicted wounds.

[Yonivore]

Guess what, On November 3rd...I don't care. John Kerry will be kicked to the Al Gore has-been bin. He'll be ranting about being cheated out of the presidency and how he used to be the future President of the United States.

[DeSPURado]

None of his were either.

1: 2nd of december 1968 (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Purple_Heart_1_Citation.pdf)
I couldn't read the data for this one

2:30th of february 1968 (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Purple_Heart_2_Citation.pdf)
Suffered shrapnel wounds to his left thigh

3: 13th of March 1969 (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Purple_Heart_3_Citation.pdf)
This one was a detonated mine he suffered wounds to his left buttock and shrapnel wounds to his right forearm

Link to injury report (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Personnel_Casualty_Report.pdf)

[Yonivore]

Actually, the Kerry Campaign didn't refute the charge that one of the Purple Hearts was awarded as a result of him being injured after he fired a mortar round into nearby rocks -- catching a ricochet.

In fact, I believe they allowed that it was possible this was the case.

[DeSPURado]

Gee that sounds like an injury to me. And not something you would call deliberately self inflicted. If an injury occurs in the persecution of a battle. You get the award. That would have to be the first one then, and not the last two that supposedly got him out of duty early so he could go home.

[Yonivore]

Okay...except that there was no reason to fire the mortar, he was jacking around. It's self inflicted...and it only required a bandaid. Any self-respecting man would have been embarrassed, put a bandaid on it himself, and moved on.

But, again, on November 3rd, he can stare at his medals all day...he'll have nothing else to do.

[DeSPURado]

Okay...except that there was no reason to fire the mortar, he was jacking around.

link?

[Tommy Duncan]

Frankly I don't care that Kerry couldn't operate weapons effectively in Vietnam.

Personally I don't care too much about what he said before Congress. It's obvious why the vets do and I can't blame them for that.

About the only rumor from Kerry's youth that I would care about was did he meet with VietCong representatives in Paris while the war was still in progress?

That seems a bit extreme for anyone who wants to be president. Even with a divisive unpopular war.

[DeSPURado]

I don't know if I have ever seen the explanation behind that photo. I have seen a photo. But no dates and no context. It could have been the South Vietnamese he was meeting for all I could tell.

[Yonivore]

http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/vvawParis.jpg
Caption: First peace meeting between VVAW and the NLF, Paris, 1971.

Damn, it's like you've never heard of Google.

Though the picture doesn't show Kerry, he DOES admit to meeting with them in Paris in his Congressional Testimony:

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
April 22, 1971 LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS RELATING TO THE WAR IN SOUTHEAST ASIA -
UNITED STATES SENATE;
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,
Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:05 a.m., in Room 4221, New Senate Office Building, Senator J. W. Fulbright (Chairman) presiding.
.
.
.
CHAIRMAN. Do you support or do you have any particular views about any one of them you wish to give the committee?

KERRY. My feeling, Senator, is undoubtedly this Congress, and I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I do not believe that this Congress will, in fact, end the war as we would like to, which is immediately and unilaterally and, therefore, if I were to speak I would say we would set a date and the date obviously would be the earliest possible date. But I would like to say, in answering that, that I do not believe it is necessary to stall any longer. I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh's points it has been stated time and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government, if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal the prisoners of war would be returned.
.
.
.
KERRY. Mr. Chairman, I realize that full well as a study of political science. I realize that we cannot negotiate treaties and I realize that even my visits in Paris, precedents had been set by Senator McCarthy and others, in a sense are on the borderline of private individuals negotiating, et cetera. I understand these things. But what I am saying is that I believe that there is a mood in this country which I know you are aware of and you have been one of the strongest critics of this war for the longest time. But I think if we can talk in this legislative body about filibustering for porkbarrel programs, then we should start now to talk about filibustering for the saving of lives and of our country.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

[DeSPURado]

It was a peace treaty negotiation? That makes sense and there was nothing wrong with it if its with both parties present.

go watch "fog of war" by the way.

[Yonivore]

What's the VVAW doing at a peace negotiation? They weren't an official arm of the U.S. Government...and, I don't see any U.S. Government officials in the photo.

[DeSPURado]

Its not without precendent in international policy. It happens all of the time. Usually as no more than a goodwill gesture.

Palestinians and Israelis hold these meetings regularly.

[Tommy Duncan]

That's not good for Kerry to say the least.

[Hook Dem]

Despurado...wouldn't that be kinda like Jessee Jackson doing his thing?

[Yonivore]

I don't know about Palestinian or Israeli law, but, in these United States, it's illegal to negotiate with a country, on behalf of the U.S. Government, and particularly one with which we are at war.

[exstatic]

...it's illegal to negotiate with a country, on behalf of the U.S. Government, and particularly one with which we are at war.


Whoa! Stop the presses. Has Yoni uncovered a scoop? Did he unearth a delaration of war in Vietnam that no one else knows about or has ever seen?

[Yonivore]

STFU, one with which we are engaged in hostilities.

It's illegal to negotiate peace on behalf of the U.S. Government -- without the government's permission.

[exstatic]

STFU, one with which we are engaged in hostilities.

#1. Find me the law, barrister. You referenced it. Produce it

#2. It won't say "during hostilities". It will say "In a state of war" if it exists at all. The "police action" is a way for the exec to get around congressional oversight. It also leaves a few loophole for protesters, though. Too bad.

[Yonivore]

"#1. Find me the law, barrister. You referenced it. Produce it"
Title 18, Part 1, Chap. 45, Sec. 953 of the U.S. Government Code says (today and in 1970), in pertinent part:


"Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."

"This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects."

[exstatic]

Well, well, Yoni. You surprise me sometimes. Perhaps he was just telling them he was pissed that they shot at him. Until a transcript of their meeting (with no proportional fonts or superscripts) can be produced to PROVE was was discussed, you really can't prosecute this.


"This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects."

[Yonivore]

Yeah.