Gary "Black Hole" Neal

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The Gary Neal at point guard experiment is a failure. I am not saying that Mills should replace his minutes; I am sure that given extended minutes Mills will present his own issues trying to switch this late in the game.

That being said Neal is absolutely atrocious on offense and defense. I am a big Splitter homer so that is what first caused me to have umbrage. He will not pass the damn ball on a pick and roll. After watching him not even attempt to find the open man for twenty games, I have given up on him.

Iso with a quicker defender playing up on the ball? Fuck it; he'll shoot it anyway. We obviously had the Laker's skunked halfway through the third quarter but his inability to run the offense or more specifically give up the damn ball in the fourth caused everyone else be chuckers too.

He seems to have gotten worse as the season wears on. About the only thing i have seen him get better at is not turning it over as he brings it up the court when they play him full court. That being said good on the ball defenders means turnovers when hes 'running the offense' and on a good possession it'll be 12 seconds by the time they get into their sets and he chucks up another shot anyway.

Then you look at his defense. It was awful watching him try to chase Sessions. He couldn't even really chase Blake and I figured that would be a decent defensive matchup for him. Any half-assed screen though and Neal is two steps behind the play leaving a big out to dry and that half slouched 'aw shucks' pose. Help defense means foul. He has a lot of Richard Jefferson in him in that regard.

The man can shoot and that is about his only saving grace but Gary Neal at point guard has been an abject failure. At this point, I would rather have Danny Green do it.

[ElNono]

Depends on the matchups... In nights like this one, Manu should be the backup PG...

[Ditty]

Is this one of those copy and paste threads?

[KaiRMD1]

Nights like this one, Gary Neal was in the game playing point guard when the score was out of reach.

[timvp]

1. Neal is a really bad defender at point guard. Can't really argue that. It wouldn't be a stretch to say he's one of the top ten worst defensive PGs in the NBA. He seems to be trying a lot harder recently but it hasn't really translated into anything yet.

2. The offense has been great all season when Neal runs the point. No matter how bad it looks, a Neal run team has been a huge success. There's just no way to argue otherwise, tbh.

3. If you are a Splitter homer, you should especially like Neal. The rare times Neal makes a good pass, there's about a 90% chance the pass is to Splitter. And the Neal/Splitter combo has been really, really good. In fact, Splitter averages the most points when paired with Neal than anyone else.

4. IMO, while I respect TJ Ford, the pieces to this team fit much better now that Neal has found his niche as the team's backup point guard.

5. Mills' playmaking and passing make Neal seem like John Stockton.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Is this one of those copy and paste threads?

Was there a conversation in the game thread or a post I missed?

I suppose the OP was a bit of venting but Gary Neal is still awful at the point. The Spurs offense is predicated on passing and Neal just doesn't pass.

Hes a lights out jumpshooter but a chucker is a chucker.

[slick'81]

not much worse than mills tbh

[jestersmash]

Neal plays to his strengths. He's a fantastic shooter, and despite his shockingly mediocre ball handling he seems to have a decent knack for creating his own shot off the dribble.

I know given how the Spurs offense can look in stretches (with phenomenal ball movement leading to wide open shots) seeing Neal dribble off a pick from Splitter and pull up for a semi-contested 3 may make Spurs fans cringe, but it's difficult to argue with the stats. He's making those 3s at an extraordinary clip (41% on the season).

I'd rather see Neal pull up for a semi-contested jump shot mid range playing back up P.G. than see him try to force a pass to Splitter that he's just not capable of making.

He's a shooting guard playing faux P.G. right now. Let him stick to his strengths.

[jesterbobman]

The only thing that should matter is team offense when he's on the court, and the Spurs have been fantastic offensively with Neal at PG. While He's not a natural PG, the best use of our players is to have him play those minutes. When he's playing PG with Manu on the floor, the PG label is just positional, the offense runs through Manu.

The defense at PG is bad, but not the worst limitation for a Backup PG. The offense works with him on the floor, and we outscore opponents.

EDIT: What jestersmash said. He's not using possesions the same way, and it's not as good to watch, but it's super effective, and that should be the only concern.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1. Neal is a really bad defender at point guard. Can't really argue that. I wouldn't be a stretch to say he's one of the top ten worst defensive PGs in the NBA. He seems to be trying a lot harder recently but it hasn't really translated into anything yet.

2. The offense has been great all season when Neal runs the point. No matter how bad it looks, a Neal run team has been a huge success. There's just no way to argue otherwise, tbh.

3. If you are a Splitter homer, you should especially like Neal. The rare times Neal makes a good pass, there's about a 90% chance the pass is to Splitter. And the Neal/Splitter combo has been really, really good. In fact, Splitter averages the most points when paired with Neal than anyone else.

4. IMO, while I respect TJ Ford, the pieces to this team fit much better now that Neal has found his niche as the team's backup point guard.

5. Mills' playmaking and passing make Neal seem like John Stockton.

As I said I do not advocate Mills taking over the minutes its obvious he presents his own challenges.

And sure Neal is fine against teams that don't play defense but hes had a negative +/- against the Lakers, Memphis, Jazz, Dallas, Nuggets etc.

I also do not see the Splitter assertion. A 'good pass' to Splitter is a layup and Neals 2APG do not bear that out. What I see most of the time is failure to make the entry pass or more often the cross court pass you have to leap to get at or him chucking yet another shot.

I know you view your player pairs as the second coming but there are 5 guys on the and Neal's going to be the one shooting.

[freetiago]

neals only playing backup pg because the one we drafted was garbage and the other one retired
hes a 2 whos been told shoot shoot shoot his whole life to facilitate
it wont look pretty but its effective
if he plays with manu hes fine
hes easily one of the top 5 shooters in the league
the mid range shots hes been making are insane along with his floaters
and hes proven clutch player
hes made a lot of huge shots this year, neals the only spur player im ok with pulling up and shooting a 3 with no ball movement at all

the guy went 8/9 last game and 5/8 this game
mills is the real blackhole
hes a point guard by stature but the only thing he can do is shoot, i also believe he has a negative assist/turnover ratio

[SpursIndonesia]

Agreed, for the 2nd unit, against opponents 2nd unit, Neal IS the offense, he's that good for a bench, instant scorer. Unless he gets into a shooting slump, his shooting should be encouraged.

[jestersmash]

Agreed, for the 2nd unit, against opponents 2nd unit, Neal IS the offense, he's that good for a bench, instant scorer. Unless he gets into a shooting slump, his shooting should be encouraged.

We should encourage Neal's shooting regardless of whether he's in a slump or not.

He's already proven that he has a beautiful, fundamentally sound shot.

If he has a good look - regardless of whether he's in a shooting slump or not - he should be encouraged to take the shot. That's how the Spurs have always operated this season. There's no reason to arbitrarily hone in on a player (Gary Neal) and change the formula (discourage him shooting [open shots] if he gets into a shooting slump).

[will_spurs]

Neal shooting is not the issue. I'd like to see some numbers about Neal's efficiency when running the point. Right now Neal is actually the 3rd PG because we're lucky enough that Manu can play back-up PG during some minutes. I agree with the OP that Neal's version of running the offense is going iso on a random player (not even necessarily a good match-up) and chucking some contested long 2. He's not even trying to pass the ball, create some ball movement or run a set play.

Re: his ability to protect the ball while bringing it up the court, we saw yesterday that he was struggling, there were a few steals or near steals.

I'm not blaming him because he's in a spot he should never have been in. I only hope that with Tony's minutes increasing during the playoffs, Manu will be able to cover most if not all of Tony's time on the bench.

[jestersmash]

It's not that Neal isn't trying to pass the ball. He can't pass the ball. He physically does not have the skills to consistently make the pass on the pick and roll like Tony or Manu do. He doesn't have the vision. He doesn't have the great ball handing skills to easily divert his attention to look for that pass.

Neal is often times struggling just to maintain dribble possession of the ball off a pick and roll. I'm sure you guys have noticed the low, back-to-the-defender, defensive dribble that he employs often when coming off the P&R.

Frankly, you guys are all spoiled with how easy Tony and Manu make that pick and roll pass look. Playing proper pick and roll offense (setting good picks, coming off those picks at optimal angles, and making clean passes) is 70% of the game today and is largely what separates lottery teams from playoff teams.

It's not as easy as "Why doesn't Neal pass the ball just pass it to Splitter and he'll hit 60% of his shots off the roll with ease!!???!!"

Danny Green isn't the greatest pick and roll player either (he's recently gotten some burn at trying his hand at playing the P&R with Splitter or Duncan). Leonard is absolutely abysmal at playing the pick and roll in the few instances that he's tried his hand at it.

[therealtruth]

The problem is Neal needs to work on his handle. Teams can sense bad ball handlers and attack them more often. You don't often see teams attack good ball handlers because they know they're not getting the ball.

[Fireball]

His handles are not that good, but he uses his body to shield the ball very well ... he does not have many TOs I think ... but also because he does not pass the ball

[TE]

I won't add anything to what other posters have already said before this post, but you really have to consider the spot Neal would be taking if others were capable of providing consistent point guard backup duties. In other words, given that the backcourt rotation is set, moving Gary Neal to strictly a backup 2 results in lesser minutes for Green (let's be real here, Green wouldn't spell Parker minutes; the only player that Pop would trust in doing that is Manu) who has more than solidified his spot on the postseason rotation. I understand the point you are trying to make here and I agree with your take on Neals point guard skills, but this is the best that can happen for the rotation...

[TE]

Oh and imagine the matchup problems with having Neal as our two guard...if he is to be playing, I'd rather him be at the point guard spot. This is one thing I dislike about players that fit the description of being tweaners.

[capek]

Personally, I think running Neal at the back up point this year has turned out to be the best thing the Spurs could have done to develop his game. Last year he was simply a spot up shooter. But he's brought that deadliness into the <10' area, and has but together quite a formidable package of moves. His defense is his main weakness, he's not a great passer, and he doesn't have great handles or court vision. But he has been very consistent in putting the ball in the hole from spots other than the 3 point line. It was pretty shaky right after TJ went down, but he's definitely gained my confidence as the back up point guard. It's been a trial by fire, and IMO he's come out the much better player for it.

[G-Dawgg]

Lmao...George Hill is gone so now everybody is bitching about Gary Neal at back-up pg...you guys are fucking hilarious.....

He does a passable job at point. Get over it.

[100%duncan]

Depends on the matchups... In nights like this one, Manu should be the backup PG...

[dylankerouac]

Neal is figuring it out. At the beginning of the season everyone thought he would be absolutely terrible and for a while it seemed like that was the case. However, he has helped this team get to where it needs to without giving up too much on the defensive end - Parker hasn't been required to come back in the fourth on several occasions.

As Pop has showed numerous times in the past, don't fix what isn't broken. I will agree with him on this one.

[weebo]

To be fair to Mills, he's on the team as a 3rd back up pg not as the primary back up, that would be Neal and Manu.

We shouldn't nit pick too much because what Pop has done with the Neal/Manu combo at point has worked as evident by the Spurs record. Maybe next year with more time with the team Mills can develop as the primary back up or CJ will come in.

[Leetonidas]

Dude gets incredibly hot for stretches and has won us plenty of games over the season. There are times he is literally unstoppable on the offensive end because he only needs an inch of space to get that sweet jumper off and if he's hitting it with regularity, the opposing team's bench is fucked between scrambling trying to cover Neal and rotate back to Tiago once he does get a pass and by then it's too late. As of now and with the Spurs' current wing situation I think Neal as the backup PG is fine especially since Mills is back there to spell him if it gets really bad and Manu can still be called upon. Neal's fine imo

[timvp]

And sure Neal is fine against teams that don't play defense but hes had a negative +/- against the Lakers, Memphis, Jazz, Dallas, Nuggets etc. He's been a net positive against the Lakers this season and most of the other teams you listed, IIRC. I know he's specifically killed Dallas.

Speaking of Neal vs. Lakers, in hindsight that first Lakers game would have been a lot different if the Spurs had Neal healthy and available to play.


I also do not see the Splitter assertion. A 'good pass' to Splitter is a layup and Neals 2APG do not bear that out. What I see most of the time is failure to make the entry pass or more often the cross court pass you have to leap to get at or him chucking yet another shot.

I know you view your player pairs as the second coming but there are 5 guys on the and Neal's going to be the one shooting.Neal exclusively looks for Splitter when he's making a play. That should make Splitter fan happy. And I wasn't talking about player pairs; I'm saying Splitter's actual point per minute is highest when Neal is on the court (24.7 points per 48 minutes).

But yeah, Neal is a frustrating point guard overall. It's definitely not pretty to watch. I don't blame anyone for not liking him. However, he's overall effective and I think he'll be fine in the playoffs. The fact he can provide offense without a lot of passing necessary will be a plus when the Spurs face tougher defensive teams that will be able to stay with the current fun and gun style, IMO.

[EVAY]

Part of Neal's problem is that at this point anybody (except Manu) coming in as a backup pint guard after Tony is going to look bad by comparison.

[SenorSpur]

Neal's consistent and obvious struggles at the backup PG spot are exactly why I'm always fearful of coaches trying to force feed a player into a position which he's not suited. Neal still, and always will. think of himself as a shooter - that's what he is. He's never going to be even a decent defender - no matter where he plays. In fact, he's atrocious.

As stated, I don't believe Mills would be much better right now, so the Spurs are somewhat stuck without another viable option.

Going forward, I just wonder how long this "Neal backup PG" experiment will last until the coaches decide to do something different?

[Obstructed_View]

Neal is very good at getting himself a good shot, and the rest of the team knows what he's going to do. It doesn't really feel like everyone's standing around watching him, and eight shots doesn't seem like too many (particularly when he hits five of them). Patty Mills is worse than Cory Joseph, so I say don't mess with it when it's working.

I wondered if Timvp and TPark were going to ridicule Neal for having so much trouble getting the ball up the floor against Steve Blake. If the ball had gone out of bounds I don't think they'd have ever forgiven him.

[DMC]

What I like about Neal at PG is that they MUST pick him up just past the half court, otherwise he will walk right into a 3. He's been great creating points when we've had lapses on offense.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Stupid thread to be honest. There's what 4 games left, I doubt Neal will play much of any minutes at PG during the playoffs. We all know he is a shooting guard, the man is doing the best he can at a position he isnt accustomed to. Neal has saved our asses a couple times this season and while hes not very good at PG, he starts good runs for us and can shoot the ball just as good as anyone in the world.

[mingus]

I think Neal is fine where he is at. He's usually in there with Manu who does most of the playmaking anyway.

[Bruno]

While I was pushing for Mills to get the backup PG earlier this month, I now think that Neal should be the primary backup PG for the playoffs. It's now too late to make the change and Mills hasn't been good enough to be promoted at that spot.

Neal as backup PG isn't a comfortable situation and Pop will have to keep a close eye on it. He could turn into a liability in some games most likely because he will failed to defend the quickest PGs of the league. In this case, Pop should put Mills on the court who matches well with the quick, small PGs. What will help doing that is that Pop has been able to give some minutes to Mills during the regular season.

[Horse]

He's certainly a 2 but he has some playmaking skills and as long as he doesn't have to run point all game he's fine.

[T Park]

Neal is very good at getting himself a good shot, and the rest of the team knows what he's going to do. It doesn't really feel like everyone's standing around watching him, and eight shots doesn't seem like too many (particularly when he hits five of them). Patty Mills is worse than Cory Joseph, so I say don't mess with it when it's working.

I wondered if Timvp and TPark were going to ridicule Neal for having so much trouble getting the ball up the floor against Steve Blake. If the ball had gone out of bounds I don't think they'd have ever forgiven him.

Couldn't seethe game so idea what your talking about.

[z0sa]

Neal has really emerged this season, and it's no doubt thanks to that amazing shot he scored last season. It's been said that Neal is an 'ugly' PG but considering how stacked the team is at the wings, Neal is lucky Pop has carved out a spot for him. Neal is obviously not a point naturally but a scorer and so that's just the style he's going to play. Apparently Pop doesn't mind it but we'll have to see if it works when the games start slowing down and meaning something. I'm especially worried about Neal bringing up the ball against pressure. He has trouble getting across the half court line in time it seems and usually just holds it near mid court until there's nothing to do but shoot it.

[Bill_Brasky]

I haven't really noticed any major problems with Neal at PG....yes, his ball handling isn't the best and his passing isn't perfect, but it's good enough to get the job done.

When he gets by his man and pulls up for a J, it's good every. single. time. When guys start stepping up to counter that, I'm sure he'll drop it off.

Patty has been way worse from what I've seen, and maybe it's because he doesn't have chemistry with the guys yet...but Neal has been leagues better as far as running the team, especially with Manu there to back him up.

[timvp]

Going forward, I just wonder how long this "Neal backup PG" experiment will last until the coaches decide to do something different?

Tbh, I hope it's permanent. Neal is one of the most dangerous backup point guards in the NBA. And while his defense can turn even subpar backup PGs into superstars, he has nowhere to go but up at that end.

I was skeptical at first but now I think Neal as the backup point guard is one of the strengths of this team headed into the playoffs.

[DAF86]

Tbh, I hope it's permanent. Neal is one of the most dangerous backup point guards in the NBA. And while his defense can turn even subpar backup PGs into superstars, he has nowhere to go but up at that end.

I was skeptical at first but now I think Neal as the backup point guard is one of the strengths of this team headed into the playoffs.


I'm surprised at all that red in Neal's offensive numbers.

[SpursNextRomanEmpire]

This is one of the oddest threads I've ever read... coming after a win in which Neal played pretty decently? The mans offense is not an issue at all, he's been hot as hell lately. Nothing to bitch about imo.

[Bruno]

And criticizing Spurs offense with Neal at the PG slot is weird. It may looks ugly but it's damn effective.

In the playoffs Neal will be paired with Manu at SG. The PG/SG combo of Neal/Manu have played 184 minutes together and have scored 121.3 points per 100 possessions in these minutes. For reference, Spurs average 110.3 points per 100 possessions.

[Obstructed_View]

Roger Mason Jr at point guard took away two things: A backup point guard to run the team and the best three point shooter on the team. Gary Neal at backup point guard is at least equally effective as a shooter, and he gets Parker some rest. Mission accomplished.

[DAF86]

And criticizing Spurs offense with Neal at the PG slot is weird. It may looks ugly but it's damn effective.

In the playoffs Neal will be paired with Manu at SG. The PG/SG combo of Neal/Manu have played 184 minutes together and have scored 121.3 points per 100 possessions in these minutes. For reference, Spurs average 110.3 points per 100 possessions.

But that's a decrease of the team pts while Manu is on the floor. In fact this happens pairing Neal with a lot of guys in the squad.



Points Scored Per 100 Possessions
http://www.dailyelements.com/pp5-2.jpg


I gotta say it surprised me a lot.

[Bruno]

But that's a decrease of the team pts while Manu is on the floor. In fact this happens pairing Neal with a lot of guys in the squad.


It's not the same sample.
In my sample, Manu is at 121.1 and Neal is at 112.5.

source: http://basketballvalue.com/index.php

[DAF86]

It's not the same sample.
In my sample, Manu is at 121.1 and Neal is at 112.5.

source: http://basketballvalue.com/index.php

Oh yeah. timvp's are from after the all-star break I think. Still surprised by those numbers.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He's been a net positive against the Lakers this season and most of the other teams you listed, IIRC. I know he's specifically killed Dallas.

Speaking of Neal vs. Lakers, in hindsight that first Lakers game would have been a lot different if the Spurs had Neal healthy and available to play.

Neal exclusively looks for Splitter when he's making a play. That should make Splitter fan happy. And I wasn't talking about player pairs; I'm saying Splitter's actual point per minute is highest when Neal is on the court (24.7 points per 48 minutes).

But yeah, Neal is a frustrating point guard overall. It's definitely not pretty to watch. I don't blame anyone for not liking him. However, he's overall effective and I think he'll be fine in the playoffs. The fact he can provide offense without a lot of passing necessary will be a plus when the Spurs face tougher defensive teams that will be able to stay with the current fun and gun style, IMO.

Lakers 4/20: -6
Lakers 4/17: +5
Suns 4/14: -16
Memphis 4/12: 0
Jazz 4/9: -4
Jazz 4/8: -3
Boston: 4/4: +7
Pacers: 3/31: +2
Suns 3/27: +2
76ers: 3/25: +2
Dallas 3/23: +4
Dallas 3/17: -2
OKC 3/16: -8
Magic: 3/14 +11
Clips: 3/9 -11 started
Knicks 3/7: +6 started
Nuggets 3/4: -4
Bulls 2/29: -14
Nuggets 2/23: +5


I stopped at that point but my hypothesis that he has been worse as of late has borne out and I really worry about teams that can play good PG defense such as the Bulls, Grizz and Clips. Paul just rapes him.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2011-2012&team=SAS

His adjusted =/- is bad. Unfortunately so is Jax =/. His unadjusted is worst on the team of those with meaningful playing time.

I get Blair and Dick but Neal is down there with him but you want to keep this permanent?

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

I think Neal should continue to be the backup PG but I've always thought he should have some help by committee.

He has positive offensive pairings with Diaw and Jackson. I think either one of those could help bring the ball up the court in a pinch, which to me, is really the only major concern I have as far the the Neal PG experiment goes.

I agree that he looks for his own shot, but guess what, so does Mills and he is way less effective. Neal has the temperament for PO basketball. He needs to be out there. Tony is having a career year so there's no reason to cut Tony's minutes back...so Neal is going to play.

Random tangent....
The second unit IS the difference for the Spurs this year. No reason to try and mess with that.

I can't stand number crunching, but I would be interested to see statistics as to when the Spurs typically gain their leads in a game. My hunch is that it's usually in the 3rd quarter as a result of the second unit going on a scoring burst that breaks the game wide open.

And really, all the talk of the Spurs high scoring seems to really be a component of the second unit. It's almost as if the starting unit is like a shadow of the former great Spurs team of the past with a more traditional attack and a slightly greater emphasis on defense with Leonard, Green, Parker, and Duncan.

And then the second unit comes in playing a vastly different brand of basketball. I wonder if this screwball is what throws teams off. I can imagine opposing coaches trying to make adjustments in the first half against whatever transpired in the first half, but with the team's Gemini nature, I can see how it would be difficult to adjust on the fly and prepare against the Spurs with the different styles of play all wrapped together into an unusual gestalt. Anyway, just a theory I'm working on...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Damnit. KBP agreeing with me makes me want to change my position. For all that I said, Neal is still a much better basketball player by leaps and bounds over Spanoulis.

[Obstructed_View]

...except Jeff Foster.

:lol souvlaki

[pgardn]

imo he is very strong and uses his body incredibly well on his shot. His jump shot is a classic. He has so much confidence in his ability he can make the Spurs turn into a bit of a wild team. I like him paired with Manu as Ginobili can take over the tougher dribbling duties.

That being said he can be given hell bringing the ball up the court and setting up. His defense is truly atrocious as well. He is beat off the first step consistently and allows penetration when we have a team on the ropes during the last moments of a possession. If the playoff refs reward stay in front D by allowing more hacking, and punish getting beat by calling it very close on touch fouls from behind, Neal is in trouble.

He is playing an important role as a backup, and I dont know if it is a recognized role but it is basically as follows:

He bales out the team when the shot clock runs down and we need a shot. He is a threat in the last 6 seconds of a possession with or without the ball. His range is unlimited and he can hit off balance driving shots. If a possession turns ragged and is dying, I like Neal to be present.

[pgardn]

Spanoulis is better than anyone on the Spurs team.

... sweet Jesus...

[therealtruth]

I'm tired of the comparisons to RMJ. RMJ was just a weak minded basketball player.

[Stalin]

is it true splitter is multiple euroleague mvp winner?

[TheSkeptic]

^^ Oh no.

[TE]

Spanoulis is better than anyone on the Spurs team.

Oh, for the love of God.

[DMC]

Mike D'Antoni, Doug Collins, Nate McMillan, Coach K.........they all rated Spanoulis as one of the top 5 players in the world.

The Spurs current roster lacks one of those.
You mean "just run out of town" D'Antoni, barely might make the playoffs Collins and "also run out of town" McMillan?

True judges of greatness.

Tiago Splitter is better than Spanoulis. Tiago is playing for the West leading NBA team, not some wannabe European faggot squad.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Spanoulis is better than anyone on the Spurs team.

Want to make a bet? I will bet that James Anderson gets a second NBA contract and that Spanoulis never does.

Spanoulis' NBA career is as dead as all the dead cats that wash up on the surf near Athens.

[Mel_13]

http://www.euroleague.net/euroleaguenews/uleb/domestic-leagues/domestic-leagues-2011-2012/greece

Vassilis Spanoulis led the way for the Reds with 15 points and 4 assists to become the leading passer in the history of HEBA championships

NBA failure sets record in 3rd tier professional basketball league,

Who cares?

[Obstructed_View]

Jeff Foster's stats:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jeff_foster/career_stats.html

Splitter's stats:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tiago_splitter/career_stats.html


Just like I predicted...........

You predicted that Splitter would be way better than Foster?

Tip: Did you actually click on the links you provided?

[timvp]

:lol Spanoulis leading passer in H.E.B. history.

Next up, Pizza Hut Midnight Basketball League.

[Obstructed_View]

You just earned an ignore.

You just earned another :lol.

:lol


There's nothing in the stats you provided that suggest that Jeff Foster is in any way better than Splitter.