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Depends on the matchups... In nights like this one, Manu should be the backup PG...
The Gary Neal at point guard experiment is a failure. I am not saying that Mills should replace his minutes; I am sure that given extended minutes Mills will present his own issues trying to switch this late in the game.
That being said Neal is absolutely atrocious on offense and defense. I am a big Splitter homer so that is what first caused me to have umbrage. He will not pass the damn ball on a pick and roll. After watching him not even attempt to find the open man for twenty games, I have given up on him.
Iso with a quicker defender playing up on the ball? it; he'll shoot it anyway. We obviously had the Laker's skunked halfway through the third quarter but his inability to run the offense or more specifically give up the damn ball in the fourth caused everyone else be chuckers too.
He seems to have gotten worse as the season wears on. About the only thing i have seen him get better at is not turning it over as he brings it up the court when they play him full court. That being said good on the ball defenders means turnovers when hes 'running the offense' and on a good possession it'll be 12 seconds by the time they get into their sets and he chucks up another shot anyway.
Then you look at his defense. It was awful watching him try to chase Sessions. He couldn't even really chase Blake and I figured that would be a decent defensive matchup for him. Any half-assed screen though and Neal is two steps behind the play leaving a big out to dry and that half slouched 'aw shucks' pose. Help defense means foul. He has a lot of Richard Jefferson in him in that regard.
The man can shoot and that is about his only saving grace but Gary Neal at point guard has been an abject failure. At this point, I would rather have Danny Green do it.
Depends on the matchups... In nights like this one, Manu should be the backup PG...
Is this one of those copy and paste threads?
Nights like this one, Gary Neal was in the game playing point guard when the score was out of reach.
1. Neal is a really bad defender at point guard. Can't really argue that. It wouldn't be a stretch to say he's one of the top ten worst defensive PGs in the NBA. He seems to be trying a lot harder recently but it hasn't really translated into anything yet.
2. The offense has been great all season when Neal runs the point. No matter how bad it looks, a Neal run team has been a huge success. There's just no way to argue otherwise, tbh.
3. If you are a Splitter homer, you should especially like Neal. The rare times Neal makes a good pass, there's about a 90% chance the pass is to Splitter. And the Neal/Splitter combo has been really, really good. In fact, Splitter averages the most points when paired with Neal than anyone else.
4. IMO, while I respect TJ Ford, the pieces to this team fit much better now that Neal has found his niche as the team's backup point guard.
5. Mills' playmaking and passing make Neal seem like John Stockton.
Was there a conversation in the game thread or a post I missed?
I suppose the OP was a bit of venting but Gary Neal is still awful at the point. The Spurs offense is predicated on passing and Neal just doesn't pass.
Hes a lights out jumpshooter but a chucker is a chucker.
not much worse than mills tbh
Neal plays to his strengths. He's a fantastic shooter, and despite his shockingly mediocre ball handling he seems to have a decent knack for creating his own shot off the dribble.
I know given how the Spurs offense can look in stretches (with phenomenal ball movement leading to wide open shots) seeing Neal dribble off a pick from Splitter and pull up for a semi-contested 3 may make Spurs fans cringe, but it's difficult to argue with the stats. He's making those 3s at an extraordinary clip (41% on the season).
I'd rather see Neal pull up for a semi-contested jump shot mid range playing back up P.G. than see him try to force a pass to Splitter that he's just not capable of making.
He's a shooting guard playing faux P.G. right now. Let him stick to his strengths.
The only thing that should matter is team offense when he's on the court, and the Spurs have been fantastic offensively with Neal at PG. While He's not a natural PG, the best use of our players is to have him play those minutes. When he's playing PG with Manu on the floor, the PG label is just positional, the offense runs through Manu.
The defense at PG is bad, but not the worst limitation for a Backup PG. The offense works with him on the floor, and we outscore opponents.
EDIT: What jestersmash said. He's not using possesions the same way, and it's not as good to watch, but it's super effective, and that should be the only concern.
As I said I do not advocate Mills taking over the minutes its obvious he presents his own challenges.
And sure Neal is fine against teams that don't play defense but hes had a negative +/- against the Lakers, Memphis, Jazz, Dallas, Nuggets etc.
I also do not see the Splitter assertion. A 'good pass' to Splitter is a layup and Neals 2APG do not bear that out. What I see most of the time is failure to make the entry pass or more often the cross court pass you have to leap to get at or him chucking yet another shot.
I know you view your player pairs as the second coming but there are 5 guys on the and Neal's going to be the one shooting.
neals only playing backup pg because the one we drafted was garbage and the other one retired
hes a 2 whos been told shoot shoot shoot his whole life to facilitate
it wont look pretty but its effective
if he plays with manu hes fine
hes easily one of the top 5 shooters in the league
the mid range shots hes been making are insane along with his floaters
and hes proven clutch player
hes made a lot of huge shots this year, neals the only spur player im ok with pulling up and shooting a 3 with no ball movement at all
the guy went 8/9 last game and 5/8 this game
mills is the real blackhole
hes a point guard by stature but the only thing he can do is shoot, i also believe he has a negative assist/turnover ratio
Agreed, for the 2nd unit, against opponents 2nd unit, Neal IS the offense, he's that good for a bench, instant scorer. Unless he gets into a shooting slump, his shooting should be encouraged.
We should encourage Neal's shooting regardless of whether he's in a slump or not.
He's already proven that he has a beautiful, fundamentally sound shot.
If he has a good look - regardless of whether he's in a shooting slump or not - he should be encouraged to take the shot. That's how the Spurs have always operated this season. There's no reason to arbitrarily hone in on a player (Gary Neal) and change the formula (discourage him shooting [open shots] if he gets into a shooting slump).
Neal shooting is not the issue. I'd like to see some numbers about Neal's efficiency when running the point. Right now Neal is actually the 3rd PG because we're lucky enough that Manu can play back-up PG during some minutes. I agree with the OP that Neal's version of running the offense is going iso on a random player (not even necessarily a good match-up) and chucking some contested long 2. He's not even trying to pass the ball, create some ball movement or run a set play.
Re: his ability to protect the ball while bringing it up the court, we saw yesterday that he was struggling, there were a few steals or near steals.
I'm not blaming him because he's in a spot he should never have been in. I only hope that with Tony's minutes increasing during the playoffs, Manu will be able to cover most if not all of Tony's time on the bench.
It's not that Neal isn't trying to pass the ball. He can't pass the ball. He physically does not have the skills to consistently make the pass on the pick and roll like Tony or Manu do. He doesn't have the vision. He doesn't have the great ball handing skills to easily divert his attention to look for that pass.
Neal is often times struggling just to maintain dribble possession of the ball off a pick and roll. I'm sure you guys have noticed the low, back-to-the-defender, defensive dribble that he employs often when coming off the P&R.
Frankly, you guys are all spoiled with how easy Tony and Manu make that pick and roll pass look. Playing proper pick and roll offense (setting good picks, coming off those picks at optimal angles, and making clean passes) is 70% of the game today and is largely what separates lottery teams from playoff teams.
It's not as easy as "Why doesn't Neal pass the ball just pass it to Splitter and he'll hit 60% of his shots off the roll with ease!!???!!"
Danny Green isn't the greatest pick and roll player either (he's recently gotten some burn at trying his hand at playing the P&R with Splitter or Duncan). Leonard is absolutely abysmal at playing the pick and roll in the few instances that he's tried his hand at it.
The problem is Neal needs to work on his handle. Teams can sense bad ball handlers and attack them more often. You don't often see teams attack good ball handlers because they know they're not getting the ball.
His handles are not that good, but he uses his body to shield the ball very well ... he does not have many TOs I think ... but also because he does not pass the ball
I won't add anything to what other posters have already said before this post, but you really have to consider the spot Neal would be taking if others were capable of providing consistent point guard backup duties. In other words, given that the backcourt rotation is set, moving Gary Neal to strictly a backup 2 results in lesser minutes for Green (let's be real here, Green wouldn't spell Parker minutes; the only player that Pop would trust in doing that is Manu) who has more than solidified his spot on the postseason rotation. I understand the point you are trying to make here and I agree with your take on Neals point guard skills, but this is the best that can happen for the rotation...
Oh and imagine the matchup problems with having Neal as our two guard...if he is to be playing, I'd rather him be at the point guard spot. This is one thing I dislike about players that fit the description of being tweaners.
Personally, I think running Neal at the back up point this year has turned out to be the best thing the Spurs could have done to develop his game. Last year he was simply a spot up shooter. But he's brought that deadliness into the <10' area, and has but together quite a formidable package of moves. His defense is his main weakness, he's not a great passer, and he doesn't have great handles or court vision. But he has been very consistent in putting the ball in the hole from spots other than the 3 point line. It was pretty shaky right after TJ went down, but he's definitely gained my confidence as the back up point guard. It's been a trial by fire, and IMO he's come out the much better player for it.
Lmao...George Hill is gone so now everybody is ing about Gary Neal at back-up pg...you guys are ing hilarious.....
He does a passable job at point. Get over it.
Last edited by G-Dawgg; 04-21-2012 at 06:09 AM.
Neal is figuring it out. At the beginning of the season everyone thought he would be absolutely terrible and for a while it seemed like that was the case. However, he has helped this team get to where it needs to without giving up too much on the defensive end - Parker hasn't been required to come back in the fourth on several occasions.
As Pop has showed numerous times in the past, don't fix what isn't broken. I will agree with him on this one.
To be fair to Mills, he's on the team as a 3rd back up pg not as the primary back up, that would be Neal and Manu.
We shouldn't nit pick too much because what Pop has done with the Neal/Manu combo at point has worked as evident by the Spurs record. Maybe next year with more time with the team Mills can develop as the primary back up or CJ will come in.
Dude gets incredibly hot for stretches and has won us plenty of games over the season. There are times he is literally unstoppable on the offensive end because he only needs an inch of space to get that sweet jumper off and if he's hitting it with regularity, the opposing team's bench is ed between scrambling trying to cover Neal and rotate back to Tiago once he does get a pass and by then it's too late. As of now and with the Spurs' current wing situation I think Neal as the backup PG is fine especially since Mills is back there to spell him if it gets really bad and Manu can still be called upon. Neal's fine imo
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