Duncan is the best player since MJ...and its not even close.

[BadMotorscooter]

Only two players have never lost in the Finals appearing 4 or more times in the last 40 years.....that is MJ and Duncan. They are a combined 10-0.( and we are talking non role players...not Robert Horry and Scottie Pippen)

Duncan has also won just as many Finals MVP's as Magic and more than Bird.....once again...MJ and Duncan account for 9 Finals MVP's combined out of their 10 championships.

And for the Kobe fans...Duncan even has more regular season MVP's as well.

If Duncan wins his 5th ring this year and plays like he is and wins his 4th Finals MVP...we are no longer talking Duncan vs. Kobe....but Duncan as a top 3 player of all time with MJ...and everyone else gets to argue who is #3.

[spurs1990]

Player genuflection es no bueno.

[Drachen]

I didn't want to start a whole thread about this, but this thread seems about as good a place to ask my question as any other.

If the playoffs ended today who would be the MVP? Is it Duncan? Tony? Someone Else? I can't quite figure it out.

[BadMotorscooter]

Drachen- its all about match-ups. Duncan carried us through the playoffs into the Finals the last time...but Parker had a great matchup in the Finals and won the MVP. If we face the Heat with no Bosh....look out...Duncan just showed he is fresh and almost averaged 20 and 10 on Blake Griffin. If we make the Finals and if the matchup is right(Miami)...Timmy wins his 4th Finals MVP...if we face Boston...Parker does because he would have to outplay Rondo.

[DespЏrado]

I didn't want to start a whole thread about this, but this thread seems about as good a place to ask my question as any other.

If the playoffs ended today who would be the MVP? Is it Duncan? Tony? Someone Else? I can't quite figure it out.

With Duncan's resurgence, he's been the best player on the team this playoffs. It's still Tony's to lose if we make the finals.

[tesseractive]

With Duncan's resurgence, he's been the best player on the team this playoffs. It's still Tony's to lose if we make the finals.

/thread

[Venti Quattro]

LeBron James is, obviously.

[tesseractive]

LeBron James is, obviously.

What's he won?

[Venti Quattro]

What's he won?

It's not about what he won. It's about what he will win, obviously...

[tesseractive]

It's not about what he won. It's about what he will win, obviously...

That's my point, though... he has incredible potential. His ceiling is immense, and he's realized it to become a truly incredible regular season player, but he hasn't won anything yet. So when he actually does what he should be capable of, then we'll talk some more.

Right now, he's still captain of the Karl Malone Brigade.

[Venti Quattro]

Nobody can match Karl Malone in terms of wilting down in big games. His clutch meltdowns could only rival that of Wilt Chamberlain's, but only without two rings.

[tesseractive]

Nobody can match Karl Malone in terms of wilting down in big games. His clutch meltdowns could only rival that of Wilt Chamberlain's, but only without two rings.

To be specific, I mean that even if LeBron's career ended tonight in a freak car accident, he's won the title "best player ever to not win a ring." He's a tremendous player, and not being great under pressure is a knock on him, but it still doesn't change how freaking good he is.

But until he actually wins the rings, I've got Duncan higher.

Even if he wins one or two, I still probably have Duncan higher. He could have picked nearly any franchise, and any of them would have done whatever he wanted to build a team around him. If he doesn't bring home at least 3, it's his own fault, and he should be penalized for it historically.

[Arcadian]

Hell yes, Duncan is the best player in the post-Jordan era, and I've known this since 2003.

Don't even mention Lebron James in this conversation. That's an insult to Tim Duncan. As of now, Duncan is a top 5 all time player. James is merely a top 25.

[dbreiden83080]

It's Duncan and Kobe.. Lebron will join them when he starts collecting :lobt2: and stops just stuffing stat sheets...

[therealtruth]

It's Duncan and Kobe.. Lebron will join them when he starts collecting :lobt2: and stops just stuffing stat sheets...

It's kind of hard to understand why someone that talented isn't winning it all each year. There's no one that can really guard him.

[slick'81]

exactly after mike duncan and kobe bar none most success

[skulls138]

Don't even mention Lebron James in this conversation. That's an insult to Tim Duncan. As of now, Duncan is a top 5 all time player. James is merely a top 25.

Id say he was better than top 25. Even without a championship hes still top 10.

[Brazil]

I didn't want to start a whole thread about this, but this thread seems about as good a place to ask my question as any other.

If the playoffs ended today who would be the MVP? Is it Duncan? Tony? Someone Else? I can't quite figure it out.

clipps is for Tim jazz for TP we need a tie breaker... nice we have OKC

[tesseractive]

Id say he was better than top 25. Even without a championship hes still top 10.

If you value individual performance over winning, sure. But if you think the most important thing you can do on a basketball court is lead a team to a title, then the first 10 spots on your list go to guys who have.

Here's 11 guys (in more-or-less chronological order), who led multiple teams to titles:

Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe.

I have all of those guys ahead of LeBron until he can do that.

[skulls138]

If you value individual performance over winning, sure. But if you think the most important thing you can do on a basketball court is lead a team to a title, then the first 10 spots on your list go to guys who have.

Here's 11 guys (in more-or-less chronological order), who led multiple teams to titles:

Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe.

I have all of those guys ahead of LeBron until he can do that.

I thought we were talking about post Jordan era. Out of the players of ALL time he's probably NOT in the top 25.

[tesseractive]

I thought we were talking about post Jordan era. Out of the players of ALL time he's probably NOT in the top 25.

Gotcha. Yeah, I'd certainly go for Top 10 post-Jordan.

[ducks]

It's not about what he won. It's about what he will win, obviously...

until he gets more help then wade,bosh he will win nothing

[temujin]

LeBron James is, obviously.

24-1.
:lol:lol:lol:lol

[temujin]

It's not about what he won. It's about what he will win, obviously...

24-2!!

:lol:lol:lol:lol

You are on a roll!

[spursfaninla]

Shaq has 4 rings, and was the best player on 2 of those teams; he and kobe were equals on the 3rd ring, and wade was the man for his 4th.

Kobe was the best player/co player on the 3rd of the first set, and was the best player on the recent two championship teams.

Duncan was the best player on every Spurs team. Tony and Manu had GREAT series in every playoff, and obviously tony got finals MVP once. But Duncan was still the best player on each spurs championship team.

It is close, and Kobe and Shaq are worthy of discussion, but those numbers are a simple way to make the case that Duncan is the best champion post-Jordan.

Best regular season player? Another story.

[OKC Thunderstorm]

It's Duncan and Kobe.. Lebron will join them when he starts collecting :lobt2: and stops just stuffing stat sheets...


Finally, a Spur fan with some perspective. Durant will pass all 3 before he is done. 3 scoring titles and two trips to the WCF. Once we start winning :lobt: Durant will surpass them all.

[Kidd K]

OP, as much as I love Duncan and think he's easily better than Kobe. . .

Pippen was not a role player, give the guy the credit he deserves. He did benefit from the presence of Jordan, but he was better than Wade imo.


I don't think you can launch Duncan up to #2 or #3 slot either just with one more ring. Kareem had 6 rings and 5 MVPs, not to mention a longer career and leads the NBA all time in scoring. Bill Russell has 11 championships. . .Magic also has 5, though I could see the argument for Duncan over him if he indeed gets 5.

Still, Duncan would at best be #4 really. I couldn't put him past Russell or Kareem that easily. And we'd be putting him above Magic and Chamberlain to get to 4 which could be argued against

However: Right now: Better than Kobe easily. Better than Bird. Better than Hakeem. Better than Shaq with another ring. Better than everyone else I didn't mention besides MJ. But not sure you could put him above those other 5 just yet. With a ring he's #6, arguably as high as #4. We could go in the middle and call it 5. But 2-3? No man. . .he needs 6 for that. That's what separates the top 3 from the rest. MJ: 6. Kareem: 6. Russell: 11. Duncan can be no higher than 4 with 5 rings.

[OKC Thunderstorm]

A bunch of delusional posters on this site. Way better than Kobe? :lol
For sure top 5 all-time? Best since MJ :lmao The guy IS great. In fact, since MJ it is a short list: Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron and soon to be My boy KD. Out of respect for titles Lebron and KD have to wait but once they start ringing Duncan will drop and Kobe too. Shaq though dominant for a while is barely in the convo. It shall come to pass after MJ:

1. Durant
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Duncan
5. Shaq

And that is the bottom line, because the DURANTULA says so!!!

[OKC Thunderstorm]

OP, as much as I love Duncan and think he's easily better than Kobe. . .

Pippen was not a role player, give the guy the credit he deserves. He did benefit from the presence of Jordan, but he was better than Wade imo.


I don't think you can launch Duncan up to #2 or #3 slot either just with one more ring. Kareem had 6 rings and 5 MVPs, not to mention a longer career and leads the NBA all time in scoring. Bill Russell has 11 championships. . .Magic also has 5, though I could see the argument for Duncan over him if he indeed gets 5.

Still, Duncan would at best be #4 really. I couldn't put him past Russell or Kareem that easily. And we'd be putting him above Magic and Chamberlain to get to 4 which could be argued against

However: Right now: Better than Kobe easily. Better than Bird. Better than Hakeem. Better than Shaq with another ring. Better than everyone else I didn't mention besides MJ. But not sure you could put him above those other 5 just yet. With a ring he's #6, arguably as high as #4. We could go in the middle and call it 5. But 2-3? No man. . .he needs 6 for that. That's what separates the top 3 from the rest. MJ: 6. Kareem: 6. Russell: 11. Duncan can be no higher than 4 with 5 rings.

:rollin
:lmao
:nope

[Galileo]

I didn't want to start a whole thread about this, but this thread seems about as good a place to ask my question as any other.

If the playoffs ended today who would be the MVP? Is it Duncan? Tony? Someone Else? I can't quite figure it out.

Duncan has the best stats easily on a per minute basis.

[BadMotorscooter]

OP, as much as I love Duncan and think he's easily better than Kobe. . .

Pippen was not a role player, give the guy the credit he deserves. He did benefit from the presence of Jordan, but he was better than Wade imo.


I don't think you can launch Duncan up to #2 or #3 slot either just with one more ring. Kareem had 6 rings and 5 MVPs, not to mention a longer career and leads the NBA all time in scoring. Bill Russell has 11 championships. . .Magic also has 5, though I could see the argument for Duncan over him if he indeed gets 5.

Still, Duncan would at best be #4 really. I couldn't put him past Russell or Kareem that easily. And we'd be putting him above Magic and Chamberlain to get to 4 which could be argued against

However: Right now: Better than Kobe easily. Better than Bird. Better than Hakeem. Better than Shaq with another ring. Better than everyone else I didn't mention besides MJ. But not sure you could put him above those other 5 just yet. With a ring he's #6, arguably as high as #4. We could go in the middle and call it 5. But 2-3? No man. . .he needs 6 for that. That's what separates the top 3 from the rest. MJ: 6. Kareem: 6. Russell: 11. Duncan can be no higher than 4 with 5 rings.

I think you missed the fact that Kareem is 6-3 in Finals appearances and only has 2 Finals MVP's. Would you say 5-0 in the Finals with 4 Final MVP's is less than 6-3 in the Finals with only 2 Finals MVP's? That is the point i was making....Duncan, with a ring...and possibly Finals MVP....will be argublly a top 3 player of all time.....at worst #4.

[tesseractive]

Duncan has the best stats easily on a per minute basis.

Stats per minute isn't a great benchmark for MVP -- if you need your MVP on the floor for 46 minutes a game at the cost of weaker per-minute stats, you do it.

Something like win shares is going to give you a better metric.

[KD4MVP]

Right now, probably Duncan, by a smidge over Kobe....

As for LeBron, he lost any shot he had at being one of the all-time greats as soon as he went to Miami, and took the easy way out.

[Russo21]

I can't remember exactly which year it was. Back when we played Seattle in the playoffs..

Ray Allen back then said in an interview he thought Duncan was top 5 all time.

Probably a bit high but nearly right. Duncan was in the middle of his MVP/Best in NBA reign when Ray Ray said that. But either way, that was major Kudo's from Ray Allen back then.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

Duncan>Shaq>Kobe

Gervin>Durant

[Spur|n|Austin]

It's kind of hard to understand why someone that talented isn't winning it all each year. There's no one that can really guard him.

No it's not. One man doesn't win a championship.

[spursfaninla]

A bunch of delusional posters on this site. Way better than Kobe? :lol
For sure top 5 all-time? Best since MJ :lmao The guy IS great. In fact, since MJ it is a short list: Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron and soon to be My boy KD. Out of respect for titles Lebron and KD have to wait but once they start ringing Duncan will drop and Kobe too. Shaq though dominant for a while is barely in the convo. It shall come to pass after MJ:

1. Durant
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Duncan
5. Shaq

And that is the bottom line, because the DURANTULA says so!!!

Laughing does not win arguments where I come from.

Amazing that people in OK can predict the future. Here in California, people are only able to know what has happened so far. I mean, no one saw Rose going down in the playoffs and losing a year, and possibly a chunk of his athleticism. Great that you know Durant's career will not be effected by injury. Duncan has had his share of injury, you know, but his game is not really dependent on his athleticism. Durant...well, I digress.

In any case, your prediction of where Lebron and KD end up is interesting; how many rings do you think they will split? 5 each? KD is only 23, so he has 10 good years, barring injuries, etc, to get a bunch. Lebron is a bit older, around 27 I believe, and every bit as dependent on athleticism to be productive, so I give him until about 33 as well to be an elite player.

Best case scenario for your case is they each get 5, and beat out TD by doing so IF TD does not ring this year. If TD rings this year, I find it hard to put KD or James ahead of him.

TD was the best player on the team for the last 4 titles; even if he was not the highest point generator this year and the last championship, his defense made up for that. He is a two-time league MVP, 3-time finals MVP. KD has zero; LBJ has 3 regular season MVP, which is great, but he still needs to at least match TD's rings to be ahead of him.

Kobe was not even the best player on his team during his first 2 titles. He was arguably co-best player on the 3rd title. So I give Kobe 3 titles as "the man." Kobe has maintained his productively for a really long career, but he lacks some of the team-centered mentality that prevents him from maximizing the productivity of his team-mates, and I think alienates them. He is driving away Pau and Bynum, just as he drove away Shaq, because of his need to be the man. For these reasons, hard for me to put him ahead of Duncan.

[OZWIN]

You're kind of pushing your luck saying that Duncan is pretty much the second best player of all-time...but this is the Spurs forum and stupid threads like these will occur evidently.

Kobe is the only player that comes close to Michael Jordan...and I'm pretty Jordan even stated that himself. Duncan is great...he is a top three power forward of all-time but no where near top three of all-time...let's keep it real here please.

You're forgetting about Wilt, Magic, Bird, and Kareem.

Duncan is top ten all-time though...if he wins another ring and the finals MVP this year again...this thread has a case but I don't think he is better than Jordan, Kobe, and Wilt for now. Bird and Kareem you have a case though...even right now with not another ring/Finals MVP.

[spursfaninla]

You're kind of pushing your luck saying that Duncan is pretty much the second best player of all-time...but this is the Spurs forum and stupid threads like these will occur evidently.

Kobe is the only player that comes close to Michael Jordan...and I'm pretty Jordan even stated that himself. Duncan is great...he is a top three power forward of all-time but no where near top three of all-time...let's keep it real here please.

You're forgetting about Wilt, Magic, Bird, and Kareem.

Duncan is top ten all-time though...if he wins another ring and the finals MVP this year again...this thread has a case but I don't think he is better than Jordan, Kobe, and Wilt for now. Bird and Kareem you have a case though...even right now with not another ring/Finals MVP.

I am not even talking Duncan top 3. I am merely comparing Kobe to Duncan, by arguing that Kobe was not the top dog on all of his championships, compared to Duncan, who was. Kobe does not compare to Finals MVPs, season MVPs, or "top dog" rings compared to duncan.

2000: Shaq was MVP. Shaq averaged 29 points that year on 57% shooting, and playing 40 minutes a game. Kobe scored 22 ppg, shot 46%, 31% from three. Kobe had some heroics in the finals, but generally speaking, Shaq was the top dog that year.

2001: Shaq and Kobe scored the same points per game, about 28. They both played about the same amount of minutes. Kobe's shooting percentages were about the same as above, as was shaqs. Shaq got finals MVP, as he would in 2002. This year, Kobe got All-NBA second team, Shaq got all-NBA first team. Shaq appears to be top-dog again.

2002: About the same as above. Shaq and Kobe both get All-NBA first team. However, Kobe did really well in the Finals, as well as in 4th quarters generally. That was the year Kobe closed out the spurs in 4th quarters. Kobe was clearly the closer, and that makes him at least co-leader of this team.

That makes Kobe the leader on 3 rings. Duncan: 4.

Other than duncan having more regular season MVPs, finals MVPs, and top dog rings, they are fairly comparable in their accomplishments.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

It's not about what he won. It's about what he will win, obviously...
:lmao

he's been in the league since '03. when is he gonna start?

[OZWIN]

I am not even talking Duncan top 3. I am merely comparing Kobe to Duncan, by arguing that Kobe was not the top dog on all of his championships, compared to Duncan, who was. Kobe does not compare to Finals MVPs, season MVPs, or "top dog" rings compared to duncan.

2000: Shaq was MVP. Shaq averaged 29 points that year on 57% shooting, and playing 40 minutes a game. Kobe scored 22 ppg, shot 46%, 31% from three. Kobe had some heroics in the finals, but generally speaking, Shaq was the top dog that year.

2001: Shaq and Kobe scored the same points per game, about 28. They both played about the same amount of minutes. Kobe's shooting percentages were about the same as above, as was shaqs. Shaq got finals MVP, as he would in 2002. This year, Kobe got All-NBA second team, Shaq got all-NBA first team. Shaq appears to be top-dog again.

2002: About the same as above. Shaq and Kobe both get All-NBA first team. However, Kobe did really well in the Finals, as well as in 4th quarters generally. That was the year Kobe closed out the spurs in 4th quarters. Kobe was clearly the closer, and that makes him at least co-leader of this team.

That makes Kobe the leader on 3 rings. Duncan: 4.

Other than duncan having more regular season MVPs, finals MVPs, and top dog rings, they are fairly comparable in their accomplishments.Kobe has five rings...you counted wrong. Didn't really care to read anything else in your post merely because my post was to anyone who thinks Duncan is a top 3 player of all-time and second to only Jordan...that is what the OP stated.

Kobe is better than Duncan all-time and anything from stats or someone who actually knows the game of basketball and isn't a biased Spurs fan/Kobe hater knows this.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

A bunch of delusional posters on this site.

1. Durant
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Duncan
5. Shaq


:lmao
i know what you mean.....

[therealtruth]

Laughing does not win arguments where I come from.

Amazing that people in OK can predict the future. Here in California, people are only able to know what has happened so far. I mean, no one saw Rose going down in the playoffs and losing a year, and possibly a chunk of his athleticism. Great that you know Durant's career will not be effected by injury. Duncan has had his share of injury, you know, but his game is not really dependent on his athleticism. Durant...well, I digress.

In any case, your prediction of where Lebron and KD end up is interesting; how many rings do you think they will split? 5 each? KD is only 23, so he has 10 good years, barring injuries, etc, to get a bunch. Lebron is a bit older, around 27 I believe, and every bit as dependent on athleticism to be productive, so I give him until about 33 as well to be an elite player.

Best case scenario for your case is they each get 5, and beat out TD by doing so IF TD does not ring this year. If TD rings this year, I find it hard to put KD or James ahead of him.

TD was the best player on the team for the last 4 titles; even if he was not the highest point generator this year and the last championship, his defense made up for that. He is a two-time league MVP, 3-time finals MVP. KD has zero; LBJ has 3 regular season MVP, which is great, but he still needs to at least match TD's rings to be ahead of him.

Kobe was not even the best player on his team during his first 2 titles. He was arguably co-best player on the 3rd title. So I give Kobe 3 titles as "the man." Kobe has maintained his productively for a really long career, but he lacks some of the team-centered mentality that prevents him from maximizing the productivity of his team-mates, and I think alienates them. He is driving away Pau and Bynum, just as he drove away Shaq, because of his need to be the man. For these reasons, hard for me to put him ahead of Duncan.

KD is a guy who could play for a while. He is not overreliant on his athleticism.

[BadMotorscooter]

Kobe has five rings...you counted wrong. Didn't really care to read anything else in your post merely because my post was to anyone who thinks Duncan is a top 3 player of all-time and second to only Jordan...that is what the OP stated.

Kobe is better than Duncan all-time and anything from stats or someone who actually knows the game of basketball and isn't a biased Spurs fan/Kobe hater knows this.

Hey...I get it. You think Kobe over Duncan. The world needs fools too. I see some people that think swampland in Florida is a good investment. It is what it is.....

[moisaenz]

I love to hate kobe lovers.. Kobe has talent no doubt about it, he is resilient, but you can compare his leadership to Duncan's. Besides Duncan has not had the fortune of getting an all-star dominating Center land on his team via free agency or another all star big thru a trade...

On a sidenote Duncan has been the man when he had to .. and has accepted to give up some of the spotlight to another player because he wants to win, he knows he is old and can't do much unlike Bryan who has probably one of the top 3 big man on his team and cant give up the spotlight.

[Sean Cagney]

A bunch of delusional posters on this site. Way better than Kobe? :lol
For sure top 5 all-time? Best since MJ :lmao The guy IS great. In fact, since MJ it is a short list: Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron and soon to be My boy KD. Out of respect for titles Lebron and KD have to wait but once they start ringing Duncan will drop and Kobe too. Shaq though dominant for a while is barely in the convo. It shall come to pass after MJ:

1. Durant
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Duncan
5. Shaq

And that is the bottom line, because the DURANTULA says so!!!

I say you are on crack punk........... Fuck yo post punk.