Worst religion

[GeraldWallace]

Disregarding "religions" like scientology what do you feel is the worst religion based on their value system etc.

Do you dislike Buddhism due to reincarnation or Islam due to it's misogyny just for some examples

[Winehole23]

Religions are fine, religious followers are a bit more iffy. I generally follow the old line that it's poor form to discuss religion out of respect for the believer -- who might care -- as well as for the atheist, who doesn't.

[Winehole23]

at any rate, such colloquies seldom conduce to peace, love and understanding here

[Winehole23]

lol butter knives out for Buddhism and Islam

[SnakeBoy]

Religions are fine, religious followers are a bit more iffy.

That's because they are people.

[SnakeBoy]

I couldn't say one religion is "worse" than another.

I think in terms of the core beliefs Islam is the most dangerous because of their belief that man is born sinless and must maintain that state throughout life as well as combining law and religion. Christianity would be next in line simply because of history and because many christians seem to use their faith as an excuse to behave in a very non christian way.

I wouldn't include Buddism since it is non theistic and is really more of a philosophy. It's possible to be christian and practice buddism. Not all buddist beleive in reincarnation btw. They all believe in rebirth which is a completely different concept.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Most of the exclusionary monotheistic religions have doctrine that requires proselytizing. They also use threats to enforce faith. As such I feel it is important to speak out against them.

It would be one thing if they had an institutional policy that was 'live and let live,' but that is not the case.

[SnakeBoy]

Most of the exclusionary monotheistic religions have doctrine that requires proselytizing. They also use threats to enforce faith. As such I feel it is important to speak out against them.


In other words, you feel it's important to proselytize.

[AussieFanKurt]

I agree it is the people. Although some of the teachings are what anger me personally

[FuzzyLumpkins]

In other words, you feel it's important to proselytize.

I am speaking out against a belief not advocating one in particular.

Typically proselytize implies conversion to a faith. I suppose if you want to use a broader definition then you could apply that as I am advocating the idea that the tenants of christianity like hell for sinners, a deity forgiving sinners if you are contrite because he let his kid die, armageddon, genesis, etc are not true.

Is not believing a belief? As an empiricist I don't think so. I think that is the default state.

[SnakeBoy]

I am speaking out against a belief not advocating one in particular.

Typically proselytize implies conversion to a faith. I suppose if you want to use a broader definition then you could apply that as I am advocating the idea that the tenants of christianity like hell for sinners, a deity forgiving sinners if you are contrite because he let his kid die, armageddon, genesis, etc are not true.

Is not believing a belief? As an empiricist I don't think so. I think that is the default state.

Well you can rationalize it how you like. IME Jehovah's Witnesses got nothing on atheists when it comes to aggressively trying to convert people to their way of thinking.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Well you can rationalize it how you like. IME Jehovah's Witnesses got nothing on atheists when it comes to aggressively trying to convert people to their way of thinking.

That was not a rationalization. That was a logical construct. The semantics of the word are the semantics of the word. I am not trying to convert someone to a belief, cause, organization or anything else. You're the one trying to make a negation into a belief.

Jehovah's Witness are funny because they only think 144k people are going to be brought into gods kingdom following Armageddon. Everyone else is subjugated to the 144k or goes to hell. Sounds like the religion for me!

[Clipper Nation]

As an atheist, I don't think there's one "worst" religion, I just think they all need to take a step back and stop trying to control everyone else's lives, tbh.... they aren't nearly as important as they think they are, I mean, they're basically magical sky fairy clubs....

[Yonivore]

Atheism is the worst religion because, it's a faith built on destroying all other faiths. Wait, that's radical Islam, as well. Okay, both of them.

[Blake]

Atheism is the worst religion because, it's a faith built on destroying all other faiths.

Not a terrible thing, imo.

[Yonivore]

Not a terrible thing, imo.
Yeah, well, it's kind of why those English fellers, back in the day, came over here; to escape religious persecution.

I think atheists should start their own country.

[clambake]

its the phony pretenders that suck......which is the majority.

[Clipper Nation]

Atheism is the worst religion because, it's a faith built on destroying all other faiths. Wait, that's radical Islam, as well. Okay, both of them.

Nice generalization, B.... I consider myself more of an apatheist than a hard-line secularist, but I doubt you even know the distinction.....

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Atheism is the worst religion because, it's a faith built on destroying all other faiths.
When have atheists tried to destroy other faiths?

[Yonivore]

Nice generalization, B.... I consider myself more of an apatheist than a hard-line secularist, but I doubt you even know the distinction.....
No, I get the distinction but, it only exists, if you're truly apathetic about what anyone does, with respect to their religious faiths.

[Blake]

I think atheists should start their own country.

it would probably get invaded by people like those English Crusading fellers from back in the day.

[vy65]

Easy question. Judaism.

[Winehole23]

583zhKnsDjI

[Slomo]

I couldn't say one religion is "worse" than another.

I think in terms of the core beliefs Islam is the most dangerous because of their belief that man is born sinless and must maintain that state throughout life as well as combining law and religion. Christianity would be next in line simply because of history and because many christians seem to use their faith as an excuse to behave in a very non christian way.

I wouldn't include Buddism since it is non theistic and is really more of a philosophy. It's possible to be christian and practice buddism. Not all buddist beleive in reincarnation btw. They all believe in rebirth which is a completely different concept.

I think you made two good points, but I have to excluded the bolded part as a valid argument since it was also true for Christianity until quite recently.

[LnGrrrR]

Atheism is the worst religion because, it's a faith built on destroying all other faiths. Wait, that's radical Islam, as well. Okay, both of them.

How many atheists do you actually know Yoni?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Atheism is the worst religion because, it's a faith built on destroying all other faiths. Wait, that's radical Islam, as well. Okay, both of them.

not believing is not the same as believing. scepticism is not the same thing as faith. Faith is n a requirement of consciousness even if it is for your particuar worldview. Not collecting stamps does not make you a nonstampcollector.

Christianity is an exclusionary religion as is judaism as is Islam.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Atheists dogma is pretty damn religious and yes I know plenty of them. They remind me of high school bullies or the fat rich kid in high school when they talk about religion. Their common meme is meme is "I don't believe in fairy tales". They mock it from the get go and really are a waste of time to have a conversation about it. I simply smile and nod.

[clambake]

Atheists dogma is pretty damn religious and yes I know plenty of them. They remind me of high school bullies or the fat rich kid in high school when they talk about religion. Their common meme is meme is "I don't believe in fairy tales". They mock it from the get go and really are a waste of time to have a conversation about it. I simply smile and nod.

do they just walk up to you and say they don't believe in fairytales or do you bring up religion first?

[Clipper Nation]

No, I get the distinction but, it only exists, if you're truly apathetic about what anyone does, with respect to their religious faiths.

And that's exactly how I feel.... I don't really care whether or not you choose to follow any religion, just don't use the law to force your beliefs on the rest of the population and it's cool, tbh.....

[Blake]

Their common meme is meme is "I don't believe in fairy tales". They mock it from the get go and really are a waste of time to have a conversation about it. I simply smile and nod.

funny, I do the same when people tell me I need to believe in a fairy tale to avoid being punished for not believing in the fairy tale.

[Yonivore]

And that's exactly how I feel.... I don't really care whether or not you choose to follow any religion, just don't use the law to force your beliefs on the rest of the population and it's cool, tbh.....
Good for you. :tu

[Viva Las Espuelas]

do they just walk up to you and say they don't believe in fairytales or do you bring up religion first?

I never initiate those conversations about religion. Sometimes I join in. I mainly observe.

[Spurminator]

If your friends are constantly belittling your religion around you unprovoked, it's not because they're atheists, it's because they're assholes.

[Yonivore]

If your friends are constantly belittling your religion around you unprovoked, it's not because they're atheists, it's because they're assholes.
I've found most atheists are.

[Yonivore]

How many atheists do you actually know Yoni?
What's the appropriate number to know?

[Yonivore]

it would probably get invaded by people like those English Crusading fellers from back in the day.
Nah, they got theirs, y'all go ahead. Just don't fuck us once you're there.

[Spurminator]

I've found most atheists are.

Sure you have. But I imagine you're the type that can't have a 5 minute conversation without politics or religion coming up, so most of your friends, or the people you spend a lot of time with, are probably the same way.

And I've found that the majority of those kind of people are assholes.

[boutons_deux]

nothing smugger than American "Christians" claiming they know the mind of God,and claiming America is God's chosen country to dominate the earth.

[Yonivore]

Sure you have.
Yep.


But I imagine you're the type that can't have a 5 minute conversation without politics or religion coming up, so most of your friends, or the people you spend a lot of time with, are probably the same way.
You'd be surprised. I have an in-law I love to death and would do anything for that voted for Obama and is going to do it again.

Love is more important than politics...and, it's the principle tenet of my religion so, no problem there, either.


And I've found that the majority of those kind of people are assholes.
If you're finding a lot of insufferable pricks in your real life, I'd look at the common denominator; you.

[Spurminator]

If you're finding a lot of insufferable pricks in your real life, I'd look at the common denominator; you.

I'm not finding a lot insufferable pricks, that's my point. If most of the atheists you know are assholes, you either don't know many atheists, don't know many people, or you hang around too many assholes.

[xrayzebra]

All the experts expounding on a subject they know little about. I
think that Yonivore came closes to being right.

Ah, well, what's new.:lol

[coyotes_geek]

I'm not finding a lot insufferable pricks, that's my point. If most of the atheists you know are assholes, you either don't know many atheists, don't know many people, or you hang around too many assholes.

Yoni? :)

bs39fmoQ8zU

[clambake]

All the experts expounding on a subject they know little about. I
think that Yonivore came closes to being right.

Ah, well, what's new.:lol

hi ray. what should i need to know about the subject to be an expert?

[SA210]

Jehovah's Witness are funny because they only think 144k people are going to be brought into gods kingdom following Armageddon. Everyone else is subjugated to the 144k or goes to hell. Sounds like the religion for me!

That's not true, from what I understand. They do believe that only 144k will go to Heaven, but they do NOT believe anyone is going to Hell, as they don't even believe Hell exists. They believe that if you aren't part of the 144k that goes to Heaven, you either simply just die (and no spirit lives on), or you will live on forever, happy, on a Heaven-like NEW Earth (as the Bible says there will be) with no sickness, death or sadness, etc.

Just sayin..

[clambake]

That's not true at all. They do believe that only 144k will go to Heaven, but they do NOT believe anyone is going to Hell, as they don't even believe Hell exists. They believe that if you aren't part of the 144k that goes to Heaven, you either simply just die (and no spirit lives on), or you will live on forever on a Heaven-like NEW Earth (as the Bible says there will be) with no sickness, death or sadness, etc.

Just sayin..

what do you do up there, sit around and praise the guy 24-7

[Yonivore]

I'm not finding a lot insufferable pricks, that's my point. If most of the atheists you know are assholes, you either don't know many atheists, don't know many people, or you hang around too many assholes.
There's your mistake; it's not just the atheists I personally know (and, I would agree, most of them are cool because we just ignore the topic), it's most atheists I've encountered throughout life. The vast majority of atheists I know, whose self-identification as such is one of the first things you know about them, are insufferable pricks or, in the case of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, cunts.

Hey, speaking of insufferable pricks, what happened to "Starbucks Appreciation Day?" I've been by a couple of them today and it looked like business as normal.

[SA210]

what do you do up there, sit around and praise the guy 24-7


I don't know, never been there. lol

[mouse]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oIb-jAOIaoM/TVhuqLLzZkI/AAAAAAAABN0/BGAYCM-6Jn4/s1600/Eucharist.jpg

[clambake]

Hey, speaking of insufferable pricks, what happened to "Starbucks Appreciation Day?" I've been by a couple of them today and it looked like business as normal.

can't be normal. the bible beaters in here say your business won't be rewarded if you don't run them with god.

[Blake]

Nah, they got theirs, y'all go ahead. Just don't fuck us once you're there.

Huh

[Blake]

All the experts expounding on a subject they know little about. I
think that Yonivore came closes to being right.

Ah, well, what's new.:lol

Yoni being more right than anyone else would be new.

[Yonivore]

Huh
should have read, "...don't fuck WITH us..." But, I don't want atheists fucking us either.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They remind me of high school bullies or the fat rich kid in high school when they talk about religion. Their common meme is meme is "I don't believe in fairy tales". They mock it from the get go and really are a waste of time to have a conversation about it.

Am I the only one that notices the irony of this statement?

[clambake]

Am I only one that notices the irony of this statement.

no

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's not true, from what I understand. They do believe that only 144k will go to Heaven, but they do NOT believe anyone is going to Hell, as they don't even believe Hell exists. They believe that if you aren't part of the 144k that goes to Heaven, you either simply just die (and no spirit lives on), or you will live on forever, happy, on a Heaven-like NEW Earth (as the Bible says there will be) with no sickness, death or sadness, etc.

Just sayin..

You're right. They interpret hell to be emptied once Armageddon hits and only have to stay there until then. You are still subject to the 144k.

[clambake]

so, they're all religiously fighting for 144k spots?

thats lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah but it's not as fearmongering as most Christian sects. They interepret some verse to mean the 12 tribes of Israel are going to have 12 something that will do 1000 something and they will be the chosen ones.

Most religions when you boil them down to basic tenants come to stuff like this. It's no worse than flying elephants or asexual reproduction.

[Trainwreck2100]

Religions aren't the problem, zealots are, and they come in all shapes and sizes be them christians, muslims, or atheists.

[LnGrrrR]

What's the appropriate number to know?

Well one would be a good starting point... :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Religions aren't the problem, zealots are, and they come in all shapes and sizes be them christians, muslims, or atheists.

Religions and zealotry go hand in hand.

[AussieFanKurt]

Yoni you make out all athiests are fuckwits and people with religion are superior moral beings. All my friends are religious to some extent. I am the only one without religion and not really sure about a god. I respect my friend's views and they respect mine. Just like I've been judged hard for having no religion and even told I'm an idiot, going to hell, without morals etc. Don't make out you're better than people without religion. What gives you that right? Didn't Jesus say something about don't throw rocks unless you're without sin? Are you perfect?

[Yonivore]

Yoni you make out all athiests are fuckwits and people with religion are superior moral beings.
Actually, I don't.


All my friends are religious to some extent. I am the only one without religion and not really sure about a god. I respect my friend's views and they respect mine. Just like I've been judged hard for having no religion and even told I'm an idiot, going to hell, without morals etc.
Sounds like my circle of friends except, there are some I don't even know how they feel about religion.


Don't make out you're better than people without religion. What gives you that right?
I don't.


Didn't Jesus say something about don't throw rocks unless you're without sin?
Be careful, Adam Smith only quoted one verse of Proverbs 25 when he should have probably been familiar with, at least, one more.


Are you perfect?
Far from it. But for the Grace of God, I deserve to burn in Hell, for eternity, for my sins.

[AussieFanKurt]

Well how come you're going on about how bad athiests are then? And how they should make their own country etc

[Spurminator]

Yonivore be trollin'. Slow day at the nursing home.

[ALVAREZ6]

I think atheists should start their own country.

It would certainly be a much smarter country than the USA today.

lol majority of citizens electing presidents due to faith (or no faith) :lol
lol George W. Bush = man of faith = OK I vote for him :lol
lol country that likes to think there is a separation of church and state :lol
lol retards :lol

[ALVAREZ6]

Atheism is the worst religion because, it's a faith built on destroying all other faiths. Wait, that's radical Islam, as well. Okay, both of them.

And on a more serious note, not really. It's not a religion.

Most atheists simply don't want to be bombarded by other religions and have other people's religious beliefs influence their lives via laws. On the other hand, religions people (Christians in particular, because we're talking about the US) on average are pro-religion-influenced laws, directly affecting other nonreligious people. Christianity is all about pushing their ideas onto everyone else and not being content with the freedom to simply practice their personal religion in their personal lives. Any law based on any religion should have no place in 21st Century USA.

[Clipper Nation]

lol country that likes to think there is a separation of church and state :lol

There is a separation of church and state established in the First Amendment, but it's been long since undermined by slimy, bigoted neocons pandering to the worst instincts of the redneck trailer-park base, tbh....

[ALVAREZ6]

I've found most atheists are.

Not true, but you probably perceive this because most atheists in the US are probably fed up with Christianity having a large presence in government to the point where they've gone fucking crazy.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So I was curious what do you guys think about these guys?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

Do they deserve our respect?

[Yonivore]

Not true, but you probably perceive this because most atheists in the US are probably fed up with Christianity having a large presence in government to the point where they've gone fucking crazy.
So, then, it is true.

[Yonivore]

And on a more serious note, not really. It's not a religion.
It absolutely is a religion. Atheists have, as an article of faith, there is no God.

[Yonivore]

It would certainly be a much smarter country than the USA today.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Fuck you. You leave.

[Yonivore]

Well how come you're going on about how bad athiests are then? And how they should make their own country etc
I never said "all atheists," you did.

And, those who have an issue with the religious foundations of the United States should just go and found their own country.

[Trainwreck2100]

And on a more serious note, not really. It's not a religion.

Most atheists simply don't want to be bombarded by other religions and have other people's religious beliefs influence their lives via laws. On the other hand, religions people (Christians in particular, because we're talking about the US) on average are pro-religion-influenced laws, directly affecting other nonreligious people. Christianity is all about pushing their ideas onto everyone else and not being content with the freedom to simply practice their personal religion in their personal lives. Any law based on any religion should have no place in 21st Century USA.

As much as I hate to agree with yonidouche it is absolutely a religion.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It absolutely is a religion. Atheists have, as an article of faith, there is no God.

That is not an article of faith. Disbelief is the opposite of faith.

faith
   [feyth]
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

Does it match a single definition of faith?
1: confidence or trust? no its called skepticism for a reason.
2: disbelief based on there not being proof =/= belief that is based on proof
3: pretty obvious on that one.

dis·be·lief   [dis-bi-leef]
noun
1. the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

As much as I hate to agree with yonidouche it is absolutely a religion.

I suppose under some definitions you could say that however if it is a 'religion' then it is one without doctrine, dogma, rituals, etc.

The only theoretical criteria is disbelief in God. Many people termed atheists do not deny that there may be a God. Other's believe that God does not manifest itself as the dogma of any known religion. Others say flat out that there isn't.

So exactly is atheism doctrine? set of beliefs etc?

Is empiricism or existentialism a religion as well?

[Clipper Nation]

It absolutely is a religion.
No, it's the lack of one.... more specifically, it's a school of thought.... a religion would imply that there's a holy book, church services, obligations, membership fees, etc...


Atheists have, as an article of faith, there is no God.Thoroughly wrong... you really don't know jack shit about atheism, B....

[Trainwreck2100]

I suppose under some definitions you could say that however if it is a 'religion' then it is one without doctrine, dogma, rituals, etc.

The only theoretical criteria is disbelief in God. Many people termed atheists do not deny that there may be a God. Other's believe that God does not manifest itself as the dogma of any known religion. Others say flat out that there isn't.

So exactly is atheism doctrine? set of beliefs etc?

Is empiricism or existentialism a religion as well?

you're combining atheism and agnosticism for one thing. It's one or the other not both. You don't need doctrine for religion. Set of beliefs is the belief there is no God

[Spurminator]

This is an age old and stupid argument. Atheism is no more a religion than Creationism is science.

[Trainwreck2100]

This is an age old and stupid argument. Atheism is no more a religion than Creationism is science.

how does it not fit this definition

a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:

[Spurminator]

Because the single belief that there is no God is not a set of beliefs and practices.

You can live your life an infinite number of ways as an atheist. Your guiding principles are your own and are not based on a guidebook handed down for generations. There's no code for atheists. There will never be anyone telling you you're not a true atheist because you're not following certain specific guidelines.

[Spurminator]

You are mistaking worldview and philosophy with religion. If atheism is considered a religion, then everyone in the world is religious, and religion is something you are born with. You can hopefully understand why that would be a ridiculous assertion.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you're combining atheism and agnosticism for one thing. It's one or the other not both. You don't need doctrine for religion. Set of beliefs is the belief there is no God

Is there a difference in the meaning of saying

1) I do not believe there is a god.
2) I believe there is no god.

I believe there is no god. Does that make you a believer?

I do not collect stamps
I collect no stamps

I collect no stamps. Does that make you a collector?

I do not eat shit
I eat no shit

I eat no shit. Does that make you an eater?

All you are doing is abusing the English placement of a negation in a particular phrasing.

[Trainwreck2100]

Because the single belief that there is no God is not a set of beliefs and practices.

You can live your life an infinite number of ways as an atheist. Your guiding principles are your own and are not based on a guidebook handed down for generations. There's no code for atheists. There will never be anyone telling you you're not a true atheist because you're not following certain specific guidelines.

infinite number of ways to live their lives, yet they all believe there is no God. So putting them all under the same umbrella is no different then putting Catholics and Baptists and hundreds of christian sects under the same umbrella even though they have different guidebooks, different codes different people telling them whether or not they are true believers because they are not following certain guidelines. P.S I;m well aware you meant the bible but believe it or not there are different books that some sects use and some do,

[Trainwreck2100]

Is there a difference in the meaning of saying

1) I do not believe there is a god.
2) I believe there is no god.

I believe there is no god. Does that make you a believer?

I do not collect stamps
I collect no stamps

I collect no stamps. Does that make you a collector?

I do not eat shit
I eat no shit

I eat no shit. Does that make you an eater?

All you are doing is abusing the English placement of a negation in a particular phrasing.
can you phrase it in a way without using the word believe

[FuzzyLumpkins]

infinite number of ways to live their lives, yet they all believe there is no God. So putting them all under the same umbrella is no different then putting Catholics and Baptists and hundreds of christian sects under the same umbrella even though they have different guidebooks, different codes different people telling them whether or not they are true believers because they are not following certain guidelines. P.S I;m well aware you meant the bible but believe it or not there are different books that some sects use and some do,

they all do not believe there is a god. Again you are misunderstanding the meaning of the use of a negation in the english language.


Grammar

In grammar, negation is the process that turns an affirmative statement (I am Australian) into its opposite denial (I am not Australian). The linguist D. Biber refers to two types of negation, synthetic ('no', 'neither' or 'nor' negation) and analytic ('not' negation). For example, "He is neither here nor there" (synthetic) or "He is not here" (analytic). Nouns as well as verbs can be grammatically negated, by the use of a negative adjective (There is no chicken), a negative pronoun (Nobody is American here), or a negative adverb (I never was American).

In English, negation for most verbs other than be and have, or verb phrases in which be, have or do already occur, requires the recasting of the sentence using the dummy auxiliary verb do, which adds little to the meaning of the negative phrase, but serves as a place to attach the negative particles not, or its contracted form -n't, to:

I have a chicken.
I haven't a chicken. (Rare, but it is still possible to negate have without the auxiliary do.)
I don't have a chicken. (The most common way in contemporary English.)

In Middle English, the particle not could be attached to any verb:

I see not the chicken.

In Modern English, these forms fell out of use, and the use of an auxiliary verb such as do or be is obligatory in most cases:

I do not see the chicken.
I have not seen the chicken.

The verb do also follows this rule, and therefore requires a second instance of itself in order to be marked for negation:

The chicken doesn't do tricks

not The chicken doesn't tricks.

In English, as in most other Germanic languages (and many non-Germanic languages), the use of double negatives as grammatical intensifiers was formerly in frequent use:

We don't have no chickens here.

Usage prescriptivists consider this use of double negatives to be a solecism, and condemn it. It makes the rhetorical figure of litotes ambiguous. It remains common in colloquial English. In Ancient Greek, a simple negative (οὐ or μὴ) following another simple or compound negative (e.g., οὐδείς, no one) results in an affirmation, whereas a compound negative following a simple or compound negative strengthens the negation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_%28linguistics%29

[FuzzyLumpkins]

can you phrase it in a way without using the word believe

That's besides the point. It's also a nonsequitor to your premise. How are you to deny belief without using the word?

It's denoting that belief in god is not true not imply that you believe in anything. You simply do not understand negation in the English language. I used those other examples to show how your assertion is absurd. The only reason why you give it credence is because of the other shitty reasoning used by others.

[Yonivore]

can you phrase it in a way without using the word believe
Nope, he can't; it's a belief.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nope, he can't; it's a belief.

It's very telling that you cannot respond to the grammar argument.

[Reck]

I think The Jehovah's Witness is among one of the worse one.

Speaking from experienced and someone that almost got suckered into being one I can tell you the way they view things is so skewed and narrow minded is not even funny man.

They dont celebrate any types of holiday, Have to be home within a reasonable amount of time, have to go to their meetings like 4 times a week, cant date anyone that's not one of your own, cant watch violent movies and so on.

Bunch of fanatics.

[Trainwreck2100]

That's besides the point. It's also a nonsequitor to your premise. How are you to deny belief without using the word?

It's denoting that belief in god is not true not imply that you believe in anything. You simply do not understand negation in the English language. I used those other examples to show how your assertion is absurd. The only reason why you give it credence is because of the other shitty reasoning used by others.

What does this sentence mean?

[Blake]

Far from it. But for the Grace of God, I deserve to burn in Hell, for eternity, for my sins.

For God so loved the world that he created hell.

What a friend!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What does this sentence mean?

In grammar, negation is the process that turns an affirmative statement (I am Australian) into its opposite denial (I am not Australian).

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Moreso, you are taking one interpretation of the word belief ie belief in a religion with a different definition of the word belief ie belief in a conclusion. Equating them and calling it a day.

It's sophist semantic tapdancing.

[Trainwreck2100]

It is denoting that belief in god not true not imply that you believe in anything

you're missing a verb

[Spurminator]

infinite number of ways to live their lives, yet they all believe there is no God. So putting them all under the same umbrella is no different then putting Catholics and Baptists and hundreds of christian sects under the same umbrella even though they have different guidebooks, different codes different people telling them whether or not they are true believers because they are not following certain guidelines. P.S I;m well aware you meant the bible but believe it or not there are different books that some sects use and some do,

Not an infinite number of books. Religions evolve and branch out, sure, but they usually started at a single source and carry enough commonalities that you can distinguish them from other religions.

[Trainwreck2100]

Moreso, you are taking one interpretation of the word belief ie belief in a religion with a different definition of the word belief ie belief in a conclusion. Equating them and calling it a day.

It's sophist semantic tapdancing.

Conclusions come from something, you can't just conclude out of thin air

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you're missing a verb

not a verb. there are other ways to complete the sentence.

It is denoting that belief in god not true and not to imply that you believe in anything.

It is denoting that belief in god not true and not imply that you believe in anything

It is denoting that belief in god not true, not to imply that you believe in anything.

etc. Could you not really understand the meaning?

[Spurminator]

Conclusions come from something, you can't just conclude out of thin air

Sure you can, it happens all the time in this very forum.

[LnGrrrR]

It absolutely is a religion. Atheists have, as an article of faith, there is no God.

Do you have, as an article of faith, a belief that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster? Are you part of the anti-FSM religion?

Do you have, as an article of faith, a belief that there are no aliens? Are you a member of the non-Alienist religion?

Do you have, as an article of faith, a belief that there are no ghosts? Are you a member of the No-Ghostism religion?

[LnGrrrR]

you're combining atheism and agnosticism for one thing. It's one or the other not both. You don't need doctrine for religion. Set of beliefs is the belief there is no God

Actually you're totally wrong. One could say you're agnostic about what agnosticism is.

[Trainwreck2100]

Not an infinite number of books. Religions evolve and branch out, sure, but they usually started at a single source and carry enough commonalities that you can distinguish them from other religions.


True but there are infinitesimal ways christians can live their lives. The only thing they share is a belief in Jesus. You said atheists shouldn't be lumped together because they have the ability to live infinite possibilities(my assumption feel free to correct me) and are therefore not a religion. Christians can live infinite lives and yet they are a religion.

[Trainwreck2100]

Actually you're totally wrong. One could say you're agnostic about what agnosticism is.

he said that atheist can believe there is a god and he separated himself from this world Athiesm is the belief in no supreme being.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Conclusions come from something, you can't just conclude out of thin air

There are multiple potentially mutually exclusive definitions of the word 'belief.'

Asserting your definition for someone else is fun I guess. As is building strawmen of phrasing of negation.

Let's take a look at belief though:

be·lief   [bih-leef]

noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

You do not get to choose which one someone else is using just like you do not get to choose someone's phrasing.

[Yonivore]

Do you have, as an article of faith, a belief that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster? Are you part of the anti-FSM religion?
No & No.


Do you have, as an article of faith, a belief that there are no aliens? Are you a member of the non-Alienist religion?
No & No.


Do you have, as an article of faith, a belief that there are no ghosts? Are you a member of the No-Ghostism religion?
No & No.

[LnGrrrR]

True but there are infinitesimal ways christians can live their lives. The only thing they share is a belief in Jesus. You said atheists shouldn't be lumped together because they have the ability to live infinite possibilities(my assumption feel free to correct me) and are therefore not a religion. Christians can live infinite lives and yet they are a religion.

Really? So there are people who believe in Jesus who think, say, it's ok to kill people, that church is stupid, that aliens exist, and that humans were created by abiogenesis instead of God?

Oh, no, wait. People who believe in Jesus tend to believe in the Bible, God, and various other tenets of Christianity. What a surprise.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

he said that atheist can believe there is a god and he separated himself from this world Athiesm is the belief in no supreme being.

huh? seriously you are failing really hard at speaking for me. this is boring.

[LnGrrrR]

No & No.

But you don't know for sure he doesn't exist; you merely have a belief that he doesn't. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

Or are you saying you don't have a belief that he doesn't exist; therefore, you DO have a belief that he DOES exist. Is that it? Please elaborate.


No & No.

But you don't know for sure they don't exist; you merely have a belief that they don't. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

Or are you saying you don't have a belief that they don't exist; therefore, you DO have a belief that they DO exist. Is that it? Please elaborate.


No & No.

But you don't know for sure they don't exist; you merely have a belief that they don't. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

Or are you saying you don't have a belief that they don't exist; therefore, you DO have a belief that they DO exist. Is that it? Please elaborate.

[Yonivore]

Really? So there are people who believe in Jesus who think, say, it's ok to kill people, that church is stupid, that aliens exist, and that humans were created by abiogenesis instead of God?

Oh, no, wait. People who believe in Jesus tend to believe in the Bible, God, and various other tenets of Christianity. What a surprise.
Actually, there are people who believe Christianity and the creation story of the Bible aren't inconsistent with any reasonable scientific theory, including evolution.

[LnGrrrR]

Actually, there are people who believe Christianity and the creation story of the Bible aren't inconsistent with any reasonable scientific theory, including evolution.

So do you know of anyone who believes in Jesus, but don't follow any other tenets of Christianity?

[Trainwreck2100]

huh? seriously you are failing really hard at speaking for me. this is boring.
my apologies


I suppose under some definitions you could say that however if it is a 'religion' then it is one without doctrine, dogma, rituals, etc.

The only theoretical criteria is disbelief in God. Many people termed atheists do not deny that there may be a God. Other's believe that God does not manifest itself as the dogma of any known religion. Others say flat out that there isn't.

So exactly is atheism doctrine? set of beliefs etc?

Is empiricism or existentialism a religion as well?


then they aren't atheists

[Spurminator]

True but there are infinitesimal ways christians can live their lives. The only thing they share is a belief in Jesus. You said atheists shouldn't be lumped together because they have the ability to live infinite possibilities(my assumption feel free to correct me) and are therefore not a religion. Christians can live infinite lives and yet they are a religion.

Christians believe that God created the universe and passed Laws down to Moses, spoke to prophets and put his Son on the earth to die so that salvation could come for everyone and not just the Jews, who were His chosen people before Christ. They believe this because of a set of books written by prophets, kings and apostles, which were collected together almost 2000 years ago to form what we call the Bible. Christianity has branched out into many denominations due to evolutions of beliefs and disagreements on things like worship, but it has a definite history and source.

What is the source of the Atheist "religion"? Who came up with it, where is it written, and when/how did other Atheist sects/denominations branch from the original doctrine?

[Yonivore]

But you don't know for sure he doesn't exist; you merely have a belief that he doesn't. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

Or are you saying you don't have a belief that he doesn't exist; therefore, you DO have a belief that he DOES exist. Is that it? Please elaborate.
I don't have a belief, one way or the other.


But you don't know for sure they don't exist; you merely have a belief that they don't. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

Or are you saying you don't have a belief that they don't exist; therefore, you DO have a belief that they DO exist. Is that it? Please elaborate.
I actually think aliens are possible. It's a vast universe. But, no, I don't have a belief, one way or the other.


But you don't know for sure they don't exist; you merely have a belief that they don't. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

Or are you saying you don't have a belief that they don't exist; therefore, you DO have a belief that they DO exist. Is that it? Please elaborate.
Again, I don't have a belief, one way or the other. I admit to being puzzle about what happens to our souls after we die.

[Juggity]

Atheism is the worst religion because, it's a faith built on destroying all other faiths. Wait, that's radical Islam, as well. Okay, both of them.

When was the last time an atheist said this:

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/24136000/ngbbs501e390d82ee2.jpg

[Trainwreck2100]

Really? [B]So there are people who believe in Jesus who think, say, it's ok to kill people, that church is stupid, that aliens exist, and that humans were created by abiogenesis instead of God?

Oh, no, wait. People who believe in Jesus tend to believe in the Bible, God, and various other tenets of Christianity. What a surprise.

1)people have used Jesus's name to kill for millenia
2)Quakers don't go to church for example
3)Can't comment on the aliens thing
4) many christians believe that evolution is an instrument of God

[Yonivore]

So do you know of anyone who believes in Jesus, but don't follow any other tenets of Christianity?
Yes. Messianic Jews believe in Jesus yet, continue to follow their Jewish faith. I'm not that familiar with their rationale so, don't ask me to explain. And, I wouldn't say they don't follow "any other tenets of Christianity" as there is much commonality between Christianity and Judaism...as well as other faiths.

[Trainwreck2100]

Christians believe that God created the universe and passed Laws down to Moses, spoke to prophets and put his Son on the earth to die so that salvation could come for everyone and not just the Jews, who were His chosen people before Christ. They believe this because of a set of books written by prophets, kings and apostles, which were collected together almost 2000 years ago to form what we call the Bible. Christianity has branched out into many denominations due to evolutions of beliefs and disagreements on things like worship, but it has a definite history and source.

What is the source of the Atheist "religion"? Who came up with it, where is it written, and when/how did other Atheist sects/denominations branch from the original doctrine?

Depends on why they believe there is no God

[Yonivore]

When was the last time an atheist said this:
Why would an atheist say that? I don't even know why a Christian would say that.

[Spurminator]

Depends on why they believe there is no God

Because they have not chosen a god (or other supernatural idea) to believe in. Therefore they have not chosen a religion.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

my apologies




then they aren't atheists

Um no, a rationalist will not believe in god without proof. It's called a viewpoint. For example: I do not believe in God but at the same time I do not say that I cannot be wrong or that some logical or empirical proof of god could exist. In the absence of that I do not believe. It's also referred to as an open mind.

Definition of AGNOSTIC
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

There is a difference between ambivalence about the existence of god, refusing to take a standpoint, and someone that will not believe without proof.

Equating a belief in the denial of a belief with a belief of something is fun though.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

PK7P7uZFf5o

[Trainwreck2100]

Um no, a rationalist will not believe in god without proof. It's called a viewpoint. For example: I do not believe in God but at the same time I do not say that I cannot be wrong or that some logical or empirical proof of god could exist. In the absence of that I do not believe. It's also referred to as an open mind.

Definition of AGNOSTIC
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

There is a difference between ambivalence about the existence of god, refusing to take a standpoint, and someone that will not believe without proof.

Equating a belief in the denial of a belief with a belief of something is fun though.

Atheist a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. no room for mays there

[Trainwreck2100]

Because they have not chosen a god (or other supernatural idea) to believe in. Therefore they have not chosen a religion.

Atheist chose not to believe in any supreme being that is atheism, but what do they believe in?

[ALVAREZ6]

As much as I hate to agree with yonidouche it is absolutely a religion.

I guess it depends on which types of atheists we're talking about. Below, I have posted some of more applicable definitions from dictionary.com or merriam-webster.

Religion:

-a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

-a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

-a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

It's true atheism is a set of beliefs..well, it's really just one thought, it all starts and ends with "there is no god".

But in my experiences, most atheists I know are not in some sect or group. There's no moral code, no institution, and with most that I know, they don't proactively try to influence others, or change others' beliefs. So sure, you can consider atheism a very simple religion with one idea.

[Spurminator]

Atheist chose not to believe in any supreme being that is atheism, but what do they believe in?

They believe in what ever they want. Belief <> Religion.

[LnGrrrR]

1)people have used Jesus's name to kill for millenia
2)Quakers don't go to church for example
3)Can't comment on the aliens thing
4) many christians believe that evolution is an instrument of God

Trainwreck, you're missing my point. Is there any person that only believes in Jesus, but doesn't follow ANY OTHER tenets of faith? (Not one off things, but a person who believes in Jesus but in no way follows any other "Christian" tendencies?)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Atheist a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. no room for mays there

Actually it gives you two choices. Denial or disbelief. Options imply that you may be one or the other. there are many different roads to denial and disbelief.

Is it possible to not believe and still have an open mind?

[ALVAREZ6]

http://i.imgur.com/jdyEJ.png

[LnGrrrR]

I don't have a belief, one way or the other.

Sure you do; you just haven't thought about it. You either believe, or don't believe, right? If there's a third


I actually think aliens are possible. It's a vast universe. But, no, I don't have a belief, one way or the other.

If you think aliens are possible, then you believe that they are possible. Therefore, you have a belief. And since one belief = a religion, you are now Ghostist.


Again, I don't have a belief, one way or the other. I admit to being puzzle about what happens to our souls after we die.

Actually an interesting question if you're a believer, so no trolling. :)

[LnGrrrR]

then they aren't atheists

Again, you don't quite know the exact terms of what agnostic/atheist means. I don't deny that there might be a God out there (agnostic) but that doesn't mean I have belief in that God (atheist).

In the same vein of thought, I don't know that there won't be some sort of Skynet that takes over the world in the next century, but I don't have a belief in that future.

[Yonivore]

Sure you do; you just haven't thought about it. You either believe, or don't believe, right? If there's a third
No, I've thought about it. I have no opinion other than to say, with God, anything is possible; including Spaghetti Monsters.


If you think aliens are possible, then you believe that they are possible. Therefore, you have a belief. And since one belief = a religion, you are now Ghostist.
Conflating the word believe with think doesn't make them synonymous.


Actually an interesting question if you're a believer, so no trolling. :)
Okay.

[LnGrrrR]

Yes. Messianic Jews believe in Jesus yet, continue to follow their Jewish faith. I'm not that familiar with their rationale so, don't ask me to explain. And, I wouldn't say they don't follow "any other tenets of Christianity" as there is much commonality between Christianity and Judaism...as well as other faiths.

Christians and Jews both believe in the OT, so no go there. I'm talking about someone who only believes that Jesus is real, but doesn't follow the Bible, doesn't go to church, doesn't believe in the 10 Commandments, etc etc. Usually those who believe in Jesus (or any other God) tend to believe a few other similar things. They don't have to believe every subset of a religion (they couldn't, because different versions argue about the "true" way) but most follow some form of baseline.

As an example: If you were to say, "What qualities does a successful person have?" some qualities that might be listed would be:

Lucky
Smart
Handsome
Talented
Rich
etc etc

That doesn't mean that every successful person contains every trait, but that a majority of people considered "successful" would probably have at least a few of these qualifiers.

[LnGrrrR]

No, I've thought about it. I have no opinion other than to say, with God, anything is possible; including Spaghetti Monsters.

So do you think God created a Flying Spaghetti Monster or not?


Conflating the word believe with think doesn't make them synonymous.

To atheists, they might as well be one and the same. I think you could ask 100 atheists and at least 95 of them would say the statements, "I think there is no God" and "I believe there is no God" would mean the exact same thing.

[Yonivore]

So do you think God created a Flying Spaghetti Monster or not?
I have no idea.


To atheists, they might as well be one and the same. I think you could ask 100 atheists and at least 95 of them would say the statements, "I think there is no God" and "I believe there is no God" would mean the exact same thing.
Okay, so since they're not synonymous, if they say "think" do they mean "believe" or is it the other way around? Thinking God doesn't exist is an intellectual exercise subject to error. Believing God doesn't exist is a faith statement that cannot be proven.

So, it's up to you...really.

[Clipper Nation]

Are political parties religions by Bible-thumper logic? I mean, they ARE different groups that don't get along and subscribe to differing belief systems and moral codes, tbh...

[Yonivore]

Are political parties religions by Bible-thumper logic? I mean, they ARE different groups that don't get along and subscribe to differing belief systems and moral codes, tbh...
I think most religions are represented in both of the major U.S. political parties.

[Clipper Nation]

I think most religions are represented in both of the major U.S. political parties.
Way to dodge my actual question, B....

By Bible-thumper logic, political parties would qualify as religions themselves, would they not?

[Yonivore]

Way to dodge my actual question, B....

By Bible-thumper logic, political parties would qualify as religions themselves, would they not?
I wasn't dodging it, it just wasn't clear.

I guess you'd have to ask a "Bible-thumper," But, personally, I don't think political parties qualify as religions since typically, one is not expected to adhere to its tenets (platform) but, instead, associates with it because of a general agreement with the party's ideals.

But, again, I'm not a "Bible-thumper."

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Yes. Messianic Jews believe in Jesus yet, continue to follow their Jewish faith. I'm not that familiar with their rationale so, don't ask me to explain.
Judaism is the one religion that is also a race, it's a unique scenario. Even though I don't believe in God and even though I think nearly all Jewish beliefs are bullshit, I have "Jewish Blood" if you will, and no belief will change that. Consequently, Jews for Jesus are people who have Jewish blood and believe in Jesus.

Either way, the belief that our Messiah has yet to arrive is a fundamental belief of Judaism. Someone who says he, "Believes Jesus is the Messiah but practices Judaism" is the same as someone saying, "I believe there is a god but I'm an atheist!"

Point being, Messianic Jews don't follow their Jewish faith by any stretch of the imagination.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

If you think aliens are possible, then you believe that they are possible. Therefore, you have a belief. And since one belief = a religion, you are now Ghostist.
:lmao

[baseline bum]

Aren't you automatically a ghostist if you're a Christian though? You guys think the Holy Spirit would show up on the ghost hunter EMF detectors?

[SnakeBoy]

Aren't you automatically a ghostist if you're a Christian though? You guys think the Holy Spirit would show up on the ghost hunter EMF detectors?

Only if He wants to...omnipotence.

[Trainwreck2100]

Trainwreck, you're missing my point. Is there any person that only believes in Jesus, but doesn't follow ANY OTHER tenets of faith? (Not one off things, but a person who believes in Jesus but in no way follows any other "Christian" tendencies?)
Depends on what you mean by christian tendencies. Slave owners owned slaves and they did alot to them that damn sure weren't christian tendencies. The phelps guys say they believe in Jesus and they don't follow christian tendencies. There was a catholic church locally that had a secret mass for gays, not as a means of segregation but so they could practice their faith in an environment where they felt comfortable. They were upholding one christian tendency and ignoring another. If you go to church on a holiday you see alot more people then you would on a normal sunday. Many individual christians practice their faith differently. Tell me what you define as christian tendencies.

They believe in what ever they want. Belief <> Religion.

and yet belief is in the definition of religion you can't have religion without belief.

[Trainwreck2100]

And if atheism isn't a religion then what is it besides a group of people that don't believe the same thing, but since they don't believe in something other people believe in it can't be called believing?

[AussieFanKurt]

Atheism, regardless if it's a group of people doesn't have a set of rules, meetings (usually) etc. We are talking about religions that have the worst belief I thought

[Latarian Milton]

atheism and marxism, and whatever shit alike are not religions because they're not complete enough, they're like a fetus to a human tbh.

and i agree with most of u guys that religion is fine, it's the people who take it to an extreme extent that make it look bad. religion is no evil by itself imho

[Avante]

This is pretty easy, Islam. The Koran a blueprint for violence. Way too much violence there. When we see people who actually believe if they blow themselves up and take a few infidels with them they will arive in paradise a hero, something is wrong. When somebody thinks 72 virgins is a good thing:rolleyes I'd want experienced women.

Muhammad was a murderous tyrant, a pedophile. There was no encounter with the Angel Gabriel in a cave on the mountain, totally bogus.

[AussieFanKurt]

This is pretty easy, Islam. The Koran a blueprint for violence. Way too much violence there. When we see people who actually believe if they blow themselves up and take a few infidels with them they will arive in paradise a hero, something is wrong. When somebody thinks 72 virgins is a good thing:rolleyes I'd want experienced women.

Just to be the devil's advocate I think a lot of the Koran isn't actually violent, it's just the extremists that take that out of it. Just like any extremist group. Personally if there's anything against Islam the main thing is how men are just so unquestionably supreme over women to the point men and women pray in different rooms... :rolleyes

[Avante]

Just to be the devil's advocate I think a lot of the Koran isn't actually violent, it's just the extremists that take that out of it. Just like any extremist group. Personally if there's anything against Islam the main thing is how men are just so unquestionably supreme over women to the point men and women pray in different rooms... :rolleyes

There are a ton of passages talking about violence towards non believers/infidels. Tons!!!!!!! Sorry but the Koran is very violent and it's not something taken out of context. It's very explicit, death to the infidels.


XlhNAEClzZw (http://XlhNAEClzZw)

[AussieFanKurt]

There are a ton of passages talking about violence towards non believers/infidels. Tons!!!!!!! Sorry but the Koran is very violent and it's not something taken out of context. It's very explicit, death to the infidels.


XlhNAEClzZw (http://XlhNAEClzZw)

Maybe I was lead wrong, I was just under the impression while there was violence in it, it was similar to say the old testament and the main people who used it were idiots

[Avante]

Maybe I was lead wrong, I was just under the impression while there was violence in it, it was similar to say the old testament and the main people who used it were idiots

What religion preaches death to others? If a Muslim wants a gurantee of Paradise all he has to do is strap a bomb to himself find some infidels and...BOOM!!!!!!!! Something is very very wrong there.

I have a bunch of books on the topic but one in particular really lays it out. It's written by a guy leaving Islam and his reasons why.

[AussieFanKurt]

Interesting. I always love accounts of people leaving a faith. Always a good read

[Avante]

Interesting. I always love accounts of people leaving a faith. Always a good read


7Gzyeo1Z1I4&feature=related (http://7Gzyeo1Z1I4&feature=related)

[Blake]

Conflating the word believe with think doesn't make them synonymous.


The dictionary makes them synonymous.

I conflate the word idiot with you.

[Blake]

But, again, I'm not a "Bible-thumper."

You're just masquerading in this thread as one

[Blake]

What religion preaches death to others?

Christianity for one.

[Spurminator]

and yet belief is in the definition of religion you can't have religion without belief.

Yes but you can have belief without religion.

[DMC]

This debate on epistemology often ends in a stalemate since the debate itself relies on acceptance of another view point that contradicts a currently held belief.

Instead, I try to understand the different classical arguments regarding epistemology. They easily address the common claims.

[Yonivore]

The dictionary makes them synonymous.
Only in certain senses of the verb believe, none of which are being discussed here.

[Blake]

Only in certain senses of the verb believe, none of which are being discussed here.

What sense have you been discussing here?

[Yonivore]

What sense are you referring to?
Well, it's not the sense where believe is used to evaluate, pass judgement, or judge -- which is the only sense for which think is a synonym.

The relevant sense of the word is: to accept.

[Yonivore]

What sense have you been discussing here?
The one where God is accepted as real or, is accepted as not real. The belief sense of the word.

[Yonivore]

This debate on epistemology often ends in a stalemate since the debate itself relies on acceptance of another view point that contradicts a currently held belief.

Instead, I try to understand the different classical arguments regarding epistemology. They easily address the common claims.
My wife said the epistemology was the worst part of childbirth.

[Blake]

The one where God is accepted as real or, is accepted as not real. The belief sense of the word.

Think:

9. to have a belief or opinion as indicated: I think so.

http://m.dictionary.com/definition/think?linkId=j0c529

[Yonivore]

Think:

9. to have a belief or opinion as indicated: I think so.

http://m.dictionary.com/definition/think?linkId=j0c529
The evaluative sense of the word. "I think so" implies an intellectual disposition based on the evaluation of input. "I believe" isn't so constrained.

Look, believing there is no God is as much a religion as believing there is.

[Blake]

Look, believing there is no God is as much a religion as believing there is.

what definition of religion are you referring to

[LnGrrrR]

Yoni, I think we're getting bogged down in semantics. Tell me, do you think the following statements are the same, or not?



I do not believe in a God.




I believe there is no God.




I have no belief in God/s.

[Yonivore]

Yoni, I think we're getting bogged down in semantics.
So, let's continue getting bogged down in semantics.


Tell me, do you think the following statements are the same, or not?
I think, if you believe a Creator does not exist or that there is no Creator, that's an article of faith which cannot be supported. It's a religion of sorts.

Stating you have no belief in God/s, assumes the existence of such but that you just have no faith in such.

Sue me.

[LnGrrrR]

So, let's continue getting bogged down in semantics.


I think, if you believe a Creator does not exist or that there is no Creator, that's an article of faith which cannot be supported. It's a religion of sorts.

Stating you have no belief in God/s, assumes the existence of such but that you just have no faith in such.

Sue me.

So when you said you have no belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you were assuming his existence?

[LnGrrrR]

...

[TeyshaBlue]

My wife said the epistemology was the worst part of childbirth.

:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

So when you said you have no belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you were assuming his existence?

Boom goes the logic bomb.

[Spurminator]

Look, believing there is no God is as much a religion as believing there is.

Well that settles it!

[Blake]

My wife said the epistemology was the worst part of childbirth.

Judy: ......Then she had her utopian tubes removed.

Gardner: "No That's fallopian darlin'.

Judy: Fallopian? Them's books of the bible silly... first and second fallopians!

-Fandango (1985)

[Yonivore]

So when you said you have no belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you were assuming his existence?
Where did I say I had no belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[LnGrrrR]

Where did I say I had no belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

A whopping two pages ago:


Do you have, as an article of faith, a belief that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster? Are you part of the anti-FSM religion?


No & No.


But you don't know for sure he doesn't exist; you merely have a belief that he doesn't. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise?

Or are you saying you don't have a belief that he doesn't exist; therefore, you DO have a belief that he DOES exist. Is that it? Please elaborate.


I don't have a belief, one way or the other.


Edit: Now let's just slot in the comment you made above


Stating you have no belief in God/s, assumes the existence of such but that you just have no faith in such.

[Th'Pusher]

Originally Posted by Yonivore
Where did I say I had no belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?


A whopping two pages ago:



Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
Do you have, as an article of faith, a belief that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster? Are you part of the anti-FSM religion?



Originally Posted by Yonivore
No & No.



Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
But you don't know for sure he doesn't exist; you merely have a belief that he doesn't. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise?


Or are you saying you don't have a belief that he doesn't exist; therefore, you DO have a belief that he DOES exist. Is that it? Please elaborate.



Originally Posted by Yonivore
I don't have a belief, one way or the other.



Edit: Now let's just slot in the comment you made above



Originally Posted by Yonivore
Stating you have no belief in God/s, assumes the existence of such but that you just have no faith in such.

And scene. Yoni has again been logically dismantled.

[Yonivore]

A whopping two pages ago:
The no referred to my not having, as an article of faith, a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

My not having a belief, one way or the other, is consistent with that.


Edit: Now let's just slot in the comment you made above

Stating I do not have, as an article of faith, a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster != to not having a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I have absolutely no opinion on the existence of a Flying Spaghetti Monster beyond what I've already stated; With God, anything's possible.

[ALVAREZ6]

lol the South

http://i.imgur.com/qaROY.png

[baseline bum]

:lol

[Blake]

The no referred to my not having, as an article of faith, a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

My not having a belief, one way or the other, is consistent with that.



Stating I do not have, as an article of faith, a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster != to not having a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I have absolutely no opinion on the existence of a Flying Spaghetti Monster beyond what I've already stated; With God, anything's possible.

What's your definition of religion?

[Yonivore]

What's your definition of religion?
In the context of this conversation, a belief held as an article of faith.

[Clipper Nation]

In the context of this conversation, a belief held as an article of faith.

:lol Coming up with stretched definitions to fit your lame argument

He asked what YOUR definition of religion is, B, not whatever definition is vague enough to fit your evangelical talking point of the day....

[Spurminator]

I hold as an article of faith that there is not a three-headed centipede swimming around in my ball sac at this very moment. I guess that makes me a follower of the religion of Non-Ballsac-Centipedism.

[Yonivore]

I hold as an article of faith that there is not a three-headed centipede swimming around in my ball sac at this very moment. I guess that makes me a follower of the religion of Non-Ballsac-Centipedism.
Weird but, it does. Why you would, I don't know but, to each his own, I say.

I can simply say, there's not a three-headed centipede swimming around in my ball sac at this very moment.

[LnGrrrR]

Weird but, it does. Why you would, I don't know but, to each his own, I say.

I can simply say, there's not a three-headed centipede swimming around in my ball sac at this very moment.

Are you 100% sure? Have you checked recently?

Or do you just BELIEVE that there's no centipede in there?

[AussieFanKurt]

:lol bible belt

[Blake]

I can simply say, there's not a three-headed centipede swimming around in my ball sac at this very moment.

it's there.

It's invisible, but it's there.

[redzero]

In the context of this conversation, a belief held as an article of faith.

Your attemp to put atheists on the same level as people who believe in magical beings for no reason, is laughable.

[Yonivore]

Your attemp to put atheists on the same level as people who believe in magical beings for no reason, is laughable.
It's the certainty there is no God that makes it an article of faith which raises it to the level of a religion, IMO.

From where did matter come and what is responsible for the laws of physics that allows matter to move and form the universe?

I'm not sure physicists have found the answer. Do you know it?

[LnGrrrR]

It's the certainty there is no God that makes it an article of faith which raises it to the level of a religion, IMO.

Funny, your certainty of not having a centipede running around your crotch would seem to justify you being part of the Non-Ballsac-Centipedism.

[AussieFanKurt]

It's the certainty there is no God that makes it an article of faith which raises it to the level of a religion, IMO.

From where did matter come and what is responsible for the laws of physics that allows matter to move and form the universe?

I'm not sure physicists have found the answer. Do you know it?

Scientists don't know reasons behind many things in life. Had it ever occurred to you that we are still just finding out some things and it doesn't just mean that oh it must be god.

[LnGrrrR]

Also, the whole, "If you don't know who did, then GOD did!" is a horrible logical fallacy called the "God of the Gaps" argument.

You could use the same justification to say that matter came from a giant elephant composed of anti-matter who caused the Big Bang when he sneezed regular matter and blew himself up.

[redzero]

It's the certainty there is no God that makes it an article of faith which raises it to the level of a religion, IMO.

One doesn't need certainty to not believe something. I lack belief in God; I don't claim, with certainty, that there are no gods.


From where did matter come and what is responsible for the laws of physics that allows matter to move and form the universe?

I don't know. The same question applies to God, too.


I'm not sure physicists have found the answer. Do you know it?

Merely claiming "God did it" doesn't answer anything.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

religion
 
re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn]
noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.



Religion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a social aspect.[1] Many religions have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture. However, there are examples of religions for which some or many of these aspects of structure, belief, or practices are absent.

Definition of RELIGION
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs held to with ardor and faith , and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


-----------------------------

This is not hard and all Yoni is doing is defining the premise with the conclusion. That's a circular argument.

Its pretty fucking obvious what the commonality between all of the definitions is.

[Yonivore]

One doesn't need certainty to not believe something. I lack belief in God; I don't claim, with certainty, that there are no gods.
Then, that's not atheism.


I don't know. The same question applies to God, too.
Except science isn't religion.


Merely claiming "God did it" doesn't answer anything.
Well, until you prove to me nothing became what we see around us without a design, I'm believing in God.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

One doesn't need certainty to not believe something. I lack belief in God; I don't claim, with certainty, that there are no gods.

I don't know. The same question applies to God, too.

Merely claiming "God did it" doesn't answer anything.

I would take that farther and say that you cannot prove without doubt a negative. Certainty is an illusion and that is a big reason why religions are comforting.

[redzero]

Then, that's not atheism.

Yes, it is. Atheism doesn't require certainty; it only requires a lack of belief in deities.


Except science isn't religion.

Your point? Are we supposed to stop asking questions when it comes to religion?

Can you explain where God came from? Can you explain how he did what he did or why?


Well, until you prove to me nothing became what we see around us without a design, I'm believing in God.

:lol I don't have to prove to you anything. Believe what you want. Me? I'm comfortable with admitting that we don't know how we came into being. I believe that's a better route than resorting to fairy tale non-answers.

:lol using the same old "atheists believe we came from nothing" strawman

[ElNono]

From where did matter come and what is responsible for the laws of physics that allows matter to move and form the universe?

I'm not sure physicists have found the answer. Do you know it?

"Don't know yet" is a perfectly valid answer that requires no beliefs.

[Yonivore]

"Don't know yet" is a perfectly valid answer that requires no beliefs.
Okay, so?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Except science isn't religion.

Well, until you prove to me nothing became what we see around us without a design, I'm believing in God.

Umm science is a set of beliefs ie empiricism, correlation, experimentation, skepticism, etc.

Given skepticism and the requirement of recreatable experiment, the conclusion from science is that god does not exist.

It's closer to the actual definition of religion as its a set of beliefs and it matches your definition as well.

Prima facia it's stupid but that is the ultimate extension of what you are arguing.

[ElNono]

Okay, so?

That's exactly what I was thinking when you asked those questions.

[Yonivore]

That's exactly what I was thinking when you asked those questions.
So? What did your response mean?

[ElNono]

So? What did your response mean?

That "don't know" is a perfectly valid answer to those questions.

[Yonivore]

That "don't know" is a perfectly valid answer to those questions.
Yes, it is. So?

[ElNono]

Yes, it is. So?

so what?

[Yonivore]

so what?
Exactly.

[Blake]

I'm believing in God.

any God in particular?

[Yonivore]

any God in particular?
There's only one.

[baseline bum]

any God in particular?

Supply-side Jesus

http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_01.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_02.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_03.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_04.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_05.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_06.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_07.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_08.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_09.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_10.jpg
http://thejustlife.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/franken_ssj_11.jpg

[Blake]

There's only one.

Bible God?

[baseline bum]

Bible God?

No, that's three.

[Blake]

Supply-side Jesus


:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Then, that's not atheism.

Actually, that's exactly what atheism is.

[Yonivore]

Actually, that's exactly what atheism is.
Atheism claims, with certainty, there is no God.

So, no, what was described isn't atheism. Agnosticism, maybe.

[ElNono]

atheism (ˈeɪθɪˌɪzəm)

— n
rejection of belief in God or gods

[C16: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god]

[LnGrrrR]

Atheism claims, with certainty, there is no God.

So, no, what was described isn't atheism. Agnosticism, maybe.

No, atheism is lack of belief. Agnostic is lack of knowledge. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in God, but I don't claim to know for sure whether he exists or not.

The a- prefix means lack of in these words. Compare amoral (which is not necessarily immoral, but the lack thereof), apathy (lack of pathos), asymptomatic, asynchronous, etc etc

[Blake]

any God in particular?


There's only one.


Bible God?

[AussieFanKurt]

VABSoHYQr6k

love Lewis CK

Catholic Church or NAMBLA?

[Wild Cobra]

VABSoHYQr6k

love Lewis CK

Catholic Church or NAMBLA?

Yes, that's funny on some level, but is that necessary for this thread?

[AussieFanKurt]

Yes, that's funny on some level, but is that necessary for this thread?

We are talking about religion aren't we? I'm just presenting an over the top view of someone that is humourous

[redzero]

Atheism claims, with certainty, there is no God.

No, it does not. You are lying.

[Wild Cobra]

We are talking about religion aren't we? I'm just presenting an over the top view of someone that is humourous
Maybe to you. I don't find anything humorous about the abuses that the catholic church officials lent a blind eye to. As much as I have my dislikes of the catholic ways, I think that's uncalled for.

[AussieFanKurt]

Maybe to you. I don't find anything humorous about the abuses that the catholic church officials lent a blind eye to. As much as I have my dislikes of the catholic ways, I think that's uncalled for.

I don't find the abuse funny. I'm not that cold hearted.

[Clipper Nation]

Why do evangelicals think "well atheism is a religion so there" is a valid argument, as if we're going to drop everything and run to Christianity?

:cry "By the loosest possible bullshit definition, atheism is a religion, so why can't you heathens shut up and support our warmongering, bigotry, and use of the law to push our agenda?" :cry

This is the type of shit that's part of the reason why I don't follow religion, tbh.... I respect that people choose to believe in and live their life by the words of an imaginary sky fairy, crazy as it may seem to me, but I wish people would respect my choice not to do so, tbh.....

[baseline bum]

Atheism claims, with certainty, there is no God.

So, no, what was described isn't atheism. Agnosticism, maybe.

You're a moron who can't understand a simple concept like negation.

[AussieFanKurt]

Why do evangelicals think "well atheism is a religion so there" is a valid argument, as if we're going to drop everything and run to Christianity?

:cry "By the loosest possible bullshit definition, atheism is a religion, so why can't you heathens shut up and support our warmongering, bigotry, and use of the law to push our agenda?" :cry

This is the type of shit that's part of the reason why I don't follow religion, tbh.... I respect that people choose to believe in and live their life by the words of an imaginary sky fairy, crazy as it may seem to me, but I wish people would respect my choice not to do so, tbh.....

Agreed, I've always tried hard to respect people's views on their own religion but I regularly get judged for not having a religion.

[Yonivore]

Agreed, I've always tried hard to respect people's views on their own religion but I regularly get judged for not having a religion.
That's kind of the point Of this thread. "Not having a religion" != atheism; atheism disrespects other religions by insisting there is no God. You know, judging others for having a religion.

[Clipper Nation]

"Not having a religion" != atheism
Wrong tbh.... atheism is a wide school of thought that branches off into smaller groups, including agnosticism, apatheism, and naturalism.... and in fact, atheism is a branch of irreligion, which is literally the absence of religion...


atheism disrespects other religions by insisting there is no GodCertain types of atheists may insist there is no god, but they don't speak for all types of atheism, B.... also, by your logic, wouldn't religions' claims that there is a god be disrespectful to atheists?

[Blake]

That's kind of the point Of this thread. "Not having a religion" != atheism; atheism disrespects other religions by insisting there is no God. You know, judging others for having a religion.

Why are you avoiding the question about which God you believe in?

[Yonivore]

Wrong tbh.... atheism is a wide school of thought that branches off into smaller groups, including agnosticism, apatheism, and naturalism.... and in fact, atheism is a branch of irreligion, which is literally the absence of religion...

Certain types of atheists may insist there is no god, but they don't speak for all types of atheism, B.... also, by your logic, wouldn't religions' claims that there is a god be disrespectful to atheists?
Okay; without getting into a whole separate discussion about your construction if atheism, I'm thinking the only sect of that religion germane to this discussion are those that disrespect other people's religions by insisting there is no God.

And, to your last question, no; unless my religion similarly insists atheists believe in God. I consciously choose not to belong to a faith community, such as Hagee's or Robertson's, for that reason.

No one on this planet knows how others, even atheists, will be judged by God.

[Yonivore]

Why are you avoiding the question about which God you believe in?
Answered; the only God there is.

[Clipper Nation]

Okay; without getting into a whole separate discussion about your construction if atheism, I'm thinking the only sect of that religion germane to this discussion are those that disrespect other people's religions by insisting there is no God.
So, in other words, you're just going to ignore all branches of atheism that don't fit your delusional argument, tbh....


No one on this planet knows how others, even atheists, will be judged by God.
Additionally, nobody on this planet can prove definitively if there is a god to judge us after we die....

[Yonivore]

So, in other words, you're just going to ignore all branches of atheism that don't fit your delusional argument, tbh....
Well, if you'll check the subject line of the thread, it is about the worst religion. I probably spoke imprecisely if I gave you the impression I agreed with your premise, I don't. I view, for instance, atheism and agnosticism differently. I was simply trying to cut through the irrelevant (to the thread) definition you posted, and return to the subject of worst religion.


Additionally, nobody on this planet can prove definitively if there is a god to judge us after we die....
Nor can they disprove it. It's a matter of belief on both sides.

[Blake]

Answered; the only God there is.

I specifically asked if you believe in Bible God. Twice.

You were pretty bold earlier in this thread when you suggested atheists should get their own country while calling atheism the worst religion.

why are you so chicken shit about your religion?

[O.J. Simpson]

lol @ racist, homophobic, war mongerers thinking that a so-called God would approve of them.

[Clipper Nation]

Nor can they disprove it. It's a matter of belief on both sides.
It's not a matter of belief that the existence of a god hasn't been proven, it's a known fact.... additionally, "you can't disprove God so he must exist" is a classic Burden of Proof fallacy...

[Clipper Nation]

lol @ racist, homophobic, war mongerers thinking that a so-called God would approve of them.
Really? I think they'd fit right in with a god who loves threatening to "curse the Earth", recommends cutting their enemies into pieces and feeding the blood to their dogs, and approves human sacrifices, tbh...

[Yonivore]

It's not a matter of belief that the existence of a god hasn't been proven, it's a known fact.... additionally, "you can't disprove God so he must exist" is a classic Burden of Proof fallacy...
The atheists about which I'm talking don't declare His existence hasn't been proven, they declare He doesn't exist.

And, I never said God "must" exist, I simply believe He does. You're as free to believe He doesn't.

[Clipper Nation]

The atheists about which I'm talking don't declare His existence hasn't been proven, they declare He doesn't exist.
So now only some atheists are in a religion, not all of them? Not only are you moving the goalposts, you're also contradicting yourself, as you began by claiming simply that atheism in and of itself is a religion and that all atheists should leave the US and start their own country....


And, I never said God "must" exist, I simply believe He does. You're as free to believe He doesn't.
Apparently not, as you want anyone who doesn't believe in a god to leave this country...

[DisAsTerBot]

lol if you dont believe in something it's a religion. what a fucking moron

[DisAsTerBot]

i dont believe in santa. I must belong to the no-santa religion tbh

[ALVAREZ6]

lol @ racist, homophobic, war mongerers thinking that a so-called God would approve of them.

God hates fags. So he'd probably approve. He created a people who never had a shot at heaven from day 1. He created beings that he hates, apparently.










Oh wait, I totally forgot. Homosexuality is purely an individual's choice.

[Blake]

And, I never said God "must" exist, I simply believe He does. You're as free to believe He doesn't.

now atheists are free to stay in your God's country?

why are you so scared to answer my question as to which God you believe in? Are you ashamed of yourself for believing in fairy tales?


Mark 8:38 New International Version (NIV)

38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

[LnGrrrR]

That's kind of the point Of this thread. "Not having a religion" != atheism; atheism disrespects other religions by insisting there is no God. You know, judging others for having a religion.

Did you not read my post? I don't see how you can't understand that the a- prefix is merely a negation.

[LnGrrrR]

Okay; without getting into a whole separate discussion about your construction if atheism, I'm thinking the only sect of that religion germane to this discussion are those that disrespect other people's religions by insisting there is no God.

And, to your last question, no; unless my religion similarly insists atheists believe in God. I consciously choose not to belong to a faith community, such as Hagee's or Robertson's, for that reason.

No one on this planet knows how others, even atheists, will be judged by God.

Atheists who claim to know that God doesn't exist aren't part of a religion either.

Are you trying to say that anyone that makes a guess at something is part of a religion? :lol

[LnGrrrR]

Nor can they disprove it. It's a matter of belief on both sides.

You can't disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster either, tbh.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I like how the evangelicals in this thread are intentionally being obtuse with regards to what they aren't certain about.

"Since I can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, then I can't say for sure he doesn't exist, I can only think he doesn't exist!"

[redzero]

Apparently, every definition of atheism and religion, besides Yonivore's, is wrong.