Legitimate rape

[coyotes_geek]

Here's the idealogical disconnect with conservatives I don't get...

They're against expanding welfare, to save money. Which is fine, except that means that all those mothers who have multiple children won't get as much support, meaning those children will suffer.

They're against increasing funding towards education (more money doesn't necessarily equate to better education, but there's obviously some link there).

Granted, I think Yoni does actually make some interesting points. As our ability to provide life-saving services for children born early increases, the moral question becomes, in my eyes, shadier. I'm against third-trimester abortions except in emergency cases, I'm unsure on 2nd-trimester, and I'm relatively ok with 1st.

I don't think there's an idealogical disconnect here. Or at least there doesn't have to be one. You can be against the government spending money on something without automatically being forced into a life view against that cause. Just because I don't want the government to spend money on a program censoring Justin Bieber doesn't disqualify me from hating Justin Bieber. :p:

[CosmicCowboy]

So he didn't say it.

Thanks.

lol technically

LOL at your gullibility. Present means he disagreed with the bill and didn't vote for it.

Spin it however you want.

[ChumpDumper]

LOL at your gullibility. Present means he disagreed with the bill and didn't vote for it.

Spin it however you want.LOL at your spin.

I asked yoni and you failed for him.

Eagerly.

Thanks again.

[clambake]

cowboy says he's not interested in the abortion debate or gay marriage debate........unless he's defending a fellow partisan hack.

[CosmicCowboy]

cowboy says he's not interested in the abortion debate or gay marriage debate........unless he's defending a fellow partisan hack.

Actually, I just despise chump for his ignorant smugness. He know what a "present" vote meant in that context...That he was so in the tank for abortions at any cost that it was OK with him if babies were born alive and their skulls smashed in with pincers as they crowned out.

[Blake]

Actually, I just despise chump for his ignorant smugness.

The irony is thicker than a baby's skull

[clambake]

Actually, I just despise chump for his ignorant smugness. He know what a "present" vote meant in that context...That he was so in the tank for abortions at any cost that it was OK with him if babies were born alive and their skulls smashed in with pincers as they crowned out.

sure, he or anyone else said that.

he made the best point. pro lifers don't give a shit about them after they're born.

not one shit

[boutons_deux]

Huckabee Breaks With GOP, Throws Support Behind Akin

"The Party’s leaders have for reasons that aren’t rational, left [Akin] behind on the political battlefield, wounded and bleeding, a casualty of his self-inflicted, but not intentional wound. In a Party that supposedly stands for life, it was tragic to see the carefully orchestrated and systematic attack on a fellow Republican. Not for a moral failure or corruption or a criminal act, but for a misstatement which he contritely and utterly repudiated. I was shocked by GOP leaders and elected officials who rushed so quickly to end the political life of a candidate over a mistaken comment in an interview. This was a serious mistake, but it was blown out of proportion not by the left, but by Akin’s own Republican Party. Is this what the party really thinks of principled pro-life advocates? Do we forgive and forget the verbal gaffes of Republicans who are “conveniently pro-life” for political advantage, but crucify one who truly believes that every life is sacred? "

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/23/736351/huckabee-breaks-with-gop-throws-support-behind-akin/

[CosmicCowboy]

And Huckabee is relevant why?

[TeyshaBlue]

Because thinkprogress (lol) thinks so.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, I just despise chump for his ignorant smugness. He know what a "present" vote meant in that context...That he was so in the tank for abortions at any cost that it was OK with him if babies were born alive and their skulls smashed in with pincers as they crowned out.Yeah, because you have multiple quotes of Obama's saying that over and over. He dines on the smashed in skulls of fetuses when they are prepared halal so he can break his Ramadan fast.

I got a reason to be smug in this case -- you failed.

For yoni.

lol

[Yonivore]

If his "present" vote on the ban isn't good enough to demonstrate Obama's position on partial-birth abortion, perhaps this video will suffice...


8YEvBTwDqBY

[ChumpDumper]

So again he didn't say anything about it.

And yoni is for government meddling.

[Spurminator]

Well, Barack Obama's position is that he's in favor of allowing women to seek abortions, even in the third trimester; and, he voted against the ban on partial-birth abortions.

Even if he really believes that, if I had to choose between leadership who would ban all abortions vs. leadership who would choose not to have the government intervene on any abortions, I'm going to favor the latter.


Is the point at which a baby can survive on its own, outside the womb, the same for every baby? Are there babies that cannot survive outside the womb, even after birth? Are there babies that can survive outside the womb at a point before which abortions are currently being allowed? Is that point subject to change due to medical advancement?

That's for the doctor to decide. Do we need a mandated deadline across all pregnancies to determine when every baby is now fit for life outside the womb? There doesn't have to be government regulation on everything, Yonivore.

[CosmicCowboy]

So again he didn't say anything about it.

And yoni is for government meddling.

:lmao @ chump.

He was asked a direct question and answered it.

And yeah, even though I am pro choice I am not for killing living viable babies "just because the mother knows best". If she wanted an abortion and "knew best" she wouldn't have fucked around and waited until the third trimester.

[Yonivore]

Even if he really believes that, if I had to choose between leadership who would ban all abortions vs. leadership who would choose not to have the government intervene on any abortions, I'm going to favor the latter.
Well, good for you. We simply disagree.


That's for the doctor to decide. Do we need a mandated deadline across all pregnancies to determine when every baby is now fit for life outside the womb? There doesn't have to be government regulation on everything, Yonivore.
Isn't there already an arbitrary point in the pregnancy before which all pregnancies may be terminated by abortion?

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao @ chump.

He was asked a direct question and answered it.I asked someone else a direct question and you failed in his stead.

If you still don't understand what I asked, you're an idiot and a failure.

[boutons_deux]

And Huckabee is relevant why?

He's one of Your People on Fox Repug Propaganda network.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't think there's an idealogical disconnect here. Or at least there doesn't have to be one. You can be against the government spending money on something without automatically being forced into a life view against that cause. Just because I don't want the government to spend money on a program censoring Justin Bieber doesn't disqualify me from hating Justin Bieber. :p:

The way I see it (and this is a partial response to Yoni as well), is that conservatives seem to have a great deal of care for the unborn child, and want to create legislation to protect that child. But they are against legislation in other areas that might protect children as well, relying on charity/family/etc etc.

I know that's not a perfect analogy (you can't rely on charity to prevent abortion, at least, not without some steps along the way), but it seems a strange emotional/logical disconnect.

[LnGrrrR]

And yeah, even though I am pro choice I am not for killing living viable babies "just because the mother knows best". If she wanted an abortion and "knew best" she wouldn't have fucked around and waited until the third trimester.

That's what gets me. I don't see why any abortions are provided at the third trimester, besides those for emergencies like life of the mother.

The biggest issue with that though, is the slippery slope argument. If it's wrong to abort at 180 days, why is it ok at 179? etc etc...

[mrsmaalox]

If his "present" vote on the ban isn't good enough to demonstrate Obama's position on partial-birth abortion, perhaps this video will suffice...


8YEvBTwDqBY

This one is better because it addresses partial-birth abortion specifically, instead of his general position on abortion.

2hSXycoE82c

[CosmicCowboy]

That's what gets me. I don't see why any abortions are provided at the third trimester, besides those for emergencies like life of the mother.

The biggest issue with that though, is the slippery slope argument. If it's wrong to abort at 180 days, why is it ok at 179? etc etc...

Oh, that's a good argument and exactly why Obama refused to vote to draw the line there. Just put that "moral stand" into actual practice though and it's pretty reprehensible.

[Yonivore]

That's what gets me. I don't see why any abortions are provided at the third trimester, besides those for emergencies like life of the mother.
I don't see why they're provided, at all -- except when there's a determination the life of the mother is at risk.


The biggest issue with that though, is the slippery slope argument. If it's wrong to abort at 180 days, why is it ok at 179? etc etc...
I would argue it's not okay; and, precisely because of the argument you raise. Who are we to make an arbitrary decision on when it's okay to kill a baby?

[boutons_deux]

GOP Convention Will Formally Endorse the Todd Akin Platform


John Nichols on August 22, 2012 - 12:11 PM ET

Todd Akin announced Wednesday that he would not be attending next week’s Republican National Convention. Apparently, RNC chairman Reince Priebus could not find a suitable speaking slot for the Missouri Republican US Senate nominee after Mitt Romney asked Akin to quit the race.

But Akin will remain a powerful “presence” at the convention, which on Monday will endorse a platform that fully embraces the congressman’s stances on abortion rights and a broad array of social issues.

The platform, which has been firmed up this week, renews the party’s call for amending the US Constitution with a “Human Life Amendment” that seeks to outlaw abortion. It also includes a “salute” to states that have sought, even in the absence of an amendment, to complicate access to medical procedures that the Supreme Court has determined are safe, legal and legitimate—including requirements that women undergo invasive ultrasound procedures and accept anti-abortion “counseling.”

Notably, despite the controversy over Akin’s “legitimate rape” remarks, the formal position statement of the Republican Party mentions no exceptions to the bar on access to a safe and legal medical procedure, even for victims of rape and incest.

This should come as no surprise. One of Akin’s most enthusiastic allies—and an unapologetic defender of the congressman even now—has played a a guiding role in the drafting of the platform.

The platform committee, which met Monday in Tampa, opened its session with a prayer by Phyllis Schlafly, the social-conservative campaigner who once lobbied GOP platform drafters but now oversees their deliberations from the inside—as a Missouri delegate and revered senior figure on what is officially dubbed the Resolutions Committee.

“God, we ask for your guidance in this platform process,” intoned Schlafly, the 88-year-old author of the right-wing tome A Choice Not An Echo, who at the 1976 and 1980 Republican National Conventions played a critical role in making the GOP an explicitly anti-choice party.

Since then, Schlafly has poked and prodded the party toward ever more explicit opposition to all abortions. She even founded a group, the Republican National Coalition for Life, “with the specific mission of protecting the pro-life plank in the Republican Party Platform.”

http://www.thenation.com/blog/169506/gop-convention-will-formally-endorse-todd-akin-platform?rel=emailNation

Akin is mainstream Repug, not fringe outlier.

[mrsmaalox]

I don't see why they're provided, at all -- except when there's a determination the life of the mother is at risk.

Wow that's exactly what Obama said :lol

[LnGrrrR]

I would argue it's not okay; and, precisely because of the argument you raise. Who are we to make an arbitrary decision on when it's okay to kill a baby?

That's a fair position to take, I think, and the brightline there is the joining of semen/egg to produce... what, a zygote? :D

[Yonivore]

Wow that's exactly what Obama said :lol
No, it's not but, you go ahead an delude yourself.

I think there should be just as much, if not more, deliberative action taken by government, before any unborn child is killed, as there is before any convicted criminal is executed.

The only abortions for which I can even see a legitimate reason to debate are those where a medical doctor has documented the probability the mother, the baby, or both will not survive the pregnancy or birth.

There should be no exceptions for any other type of abortion.

[Yonivore]

That's a fair position to take, I think, and the brightline there is the joining of semen/egg to produce... what, a zygote? :D
My position has always been that as long as reasonable people disagree on when a human life begins, we are obligated, as a society, to err on the side of life and not terminate it.

[CosmicCowboy]

No, it's not but, you go ahead an delude yourself.

I think there should be just as much, if not more, deliberative action taken by government, before any unborn child is killed, as there is before any convicted criminal is executed.

The only abortions for which I can even see a legitimate reason to debate are those where a medical doctor has documented the probability the mother, the baby, or both will not survive the pregnancy or birth.

There should be no exceptions for any other type of abortion.


Uhhhh...I don't think the mother can wait on abortion row 15-20 years for her request to make it to the supreme court...

[Yonivore]

Uhhhh...I don't think the mother can wait 15-20 years for her request to make it to the supreme court...
If they can rule on Bush vs. Gore in days, I'm sure the courts can accommodate.

[ElNono]

Wow that's exactly what Obama said :lol

Yoni is just connecting the dots...

[ElNono]

If they can rule on Bush vs. Gore in days, I'm sure the courts can accommodate.

Which one of those two were executed?

[LnGrrrR]

My position has always been that as long as reasonable people disagree on when a human life begins, we are obligated, as a society, to err on the side of life and not terminate it.

I think what makes it hard is that, while the byline of "life" is obvious, the "human" part is much less so, and the "person" part much less. Obviously, one cell may be a "human" in scientific terms, in that it has our DNA, but not many people would refer to a cell or cluster of cells as "human". Once those cells develop into the fetal stage, it becomes more a question of personhood and how we define a "person".

I know it's cliche, but after the birth of my child I had to rethink my views on abortion. The "able to be supported as an independent person/not a parasite" argument seems weak to me, as even a baby removed from its mother is still dependent for food, protection, etc etc. I'm not sure if the snipping of an umbilical cord should be the symbolic cut to determine personhood.

Should we make abortions illegal, and push them underground, knowing that kids will still have them performed in less safe places? Should the taking of that life be outlawed anyways, even given the potential for those backroom procedures? Determining balances and things of that nature. My views certainly aren't set in stone. I'm not convinced that abortion should be outlawed, but I also think abortions should be performed as early as possible.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't see why they're provided, at all -- except when there's a determination the life of the mother is at risk.


Wow that's exactly what Obama said :lol


No, it's not but, you go ahead an delude yourself.


With respect to partial-birth abortion, I am completely supportive of a ban on late-term abortions, partial-birth or otherwise, as long as there's an exception for the mother's health and life, and this did not contain that exception.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/debates/transcripts/third-presidential-debate.html

(I know it's in the video you posted, but yoni lives in too much denial to actually watch it.)

And you're welcome, CC. We answered my question for yoni where you failed.

[Yonivore]

I think what makes it hard is that, while the byline of "life" is obvious, the "human" part is much less so, and the "person" part much less. Obviously, one cell may be a "human" in scientific terms, in that it has our DNA, but not many people would refer to a cell or cluster of cells as "human". Once those cells develop into the fetal stage, it becomes more a question of personhood and how we define a "person".

I know it's cliche, but after the birth of my child I had to rethink my views on abortion. The "able to be supported as an independent person/not a parasite" argument seems weak to me, as even a baby removed from its mother is still dependent for food, protection, etc etc. I'm not sure if the snipping of an umbilical cord should be the symbolic cut to determine personhood.

Should we make abortions illegal, and push them underground, knowing that kids will still have them performed in less safe places? Should the taking of that life be outlawed anyways, even given the potential for those backroom procedures? Determining balances and things of that nature. My views certainly aren't set in stone. I'm not convinced that abortion should be outlawed, but I also think abortions should be performed as early as possible.
Would it affect your position if you knew that, because we are conducting so many legal abortions these days, the actual number (not the rate) of life-threatening complications and deaths to the mother are far greater than when they were illegal?

Doing something over a million times a year is going to result in quite a few problems, even if it's a small percentage of the total procedures.

[Spurminator]

The "able to be supported as an independent person/not a parasite" argument seems weak to me, as even a baby removed from its mother is still dependent for food, protection, etc etc. I'm not sure if the snipping of an umbilical cord should be the symbolic cut to determine personhood.

IMO the key difference is that the newborn not absolutely dependent on a single specific person (its birth mother) for those needs.

[Spurminator]

Would it affect your position if you knew that, because we are conducting so many legal abortions these days, the actual number (not the rate) of life-threatening complications and deaths to the mother are far greater than when they were illegal?

Doing something over a million times a year is going to result in quite a few problems, even if it's a small percentage of the total procedures.

Sure, and the number of car wrecks rose significantly following the mass production of cars.

[ElNono]

The "able to be supported as an independent person/not a parasite" argument seems weak to me, as even a baby removed from its mother is still dependent for food, protection, etc etc.

But at that point somebody other than the mother can provide those needs.

[Wild Cobra]

You must think a miscarriage is murder too.
Why?

Because a miscarriage is called a spontaneous abortion?

[Wild Cobra]

Intentionally induced. Yep.
Agreed.

[Wild Cobra]

Here's the idealogical disconnect with conservatives I don't get...

They're against expanding welfare, to save money. Which is fine, except that means that all those mothers who have multiple children won't get as much support, meaning those children will suffer.

There used to be a stigma involved with carelessly having children. Now, it's trendy, and at one time a few years back... a fad... The stigma aspect needs to return. People need to feel shame for such actions and let the shame be a deterrent to being careless. It used to be that families would take care of each other. Now when you have generations of families living off welfare, it's even harder to deter such problems.


They're against increasing funding towards education (more money doesn't necessarily equate to better education, but there's obviously some link there).

I can see the need for help in some areas. I would prefer that spending not be done in these areas by the federal government. The sates and local communities should fund this (10th amendment.) However, since education has been nationalized, the spending should be prioritized to only those with good school records.


Granted, I think Yoni does actually make some interesting points. As our ability to provide life-saving services for children born early increases, the moral question becomes, in my eyes, shadier. I'm against third-trimester abortions except in emergency cases, I'm unsure on 2nd-trimester, and I'm relatively ok with 1st.

Band-aid solutions.

The proper solution would be one that eliminates the need for abortions. That's called responsibility. This nation is so lacking in responsibility. Irresponsible voters electing irresponsible politicians.

[Wild Cobra]

So he didn't say it.

Thanks.

lol technically
Yes, technically is is no.

If you have 100 senators voting, 48 vote yes, 47 vote no, and 5 vote present...

The 48-47 does not win because it's only 48% of 100 votes..

It is a chickenshit NO vote.

[George Gervin's Afro]

There used to be a stigma involved with carelessly having children. Now, it's trendy, and at one time a few years back... a fad... The stigma aspect needs to return. People need to feel shame for such actions and let the shame be a deterrent to being careless. It used to be that families would take care of each other. Now when you have generations of families living off welfare, it's even harder to deter such problems.

I can see the need for help in some areas. I would prefer that spending not be done in these areas by the federal government. The sates and local communities should fund this (10th amendment.) However, since education has been nationalized, the spending should be prioritized to only those with good school records.

Band-aid solutions.

The proper solution would be one that eliminates the need for abortions. That's called responsibility. This nation is so lacking in responsibility. Irresponsible voters electing irresponsible politicians.

people need to be shamed lol..... the same local areas that are against teaching critical thinking skills? the same local areas that are readying for a civil war?..

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, technically is is no.

If you have 100 senators voting, 48 vote yes, 47 vote no, and 5 vote present...

The 48-47 does not win because it's only 48% of 100 votes..

It is a chickenshit NO vote.:lol Did you all get together and decide to not understand the question and ignore the actual answer earlier?

Well done.

[Yonivore]

Sure, and the number of car wrecks rose significantly following the mass production of cars.
Abortions aren't accidental.

[CosmicCowboy]

Abortions aren't accidental.

One could make the argument that the actual collision is not the accident. It was the mistake in driving judgement (accident) that led to the collision.

The same case could be made for the accidental pregnancy.

[Wild Cobra]

One could make the argument that the actual collision is not the accident. It was the mistake in driving judgement (accident) that led to the collision.

The same case could be made for the accidental pregnancy.
Is that anything like not killing someone in an auto accident, then finding and killing them?

The mistake in judgement leads to conception, then murder. Wouldn't it be the same thing?

[CosmicCowboy]

WC, Yoni and all the other pro-lifers in here...I think I can speak for everyone here and say that were you to accidentally knock a girl up we would certainly respect your conviction to ask the girl to marry you and raise the child together. In the same exact example I would respect her decision to choose not to marry and abort the fetus early term if that were her wishes. I actually think that more RESPONSIBLE people tend to choose abortions because they really did think through the ramifications of their decision instead of just saying "OH! it would be SO much fun to have a little baby that loves me!"

[Wild Cobra]

WC, Yoni and all the other pro-lifers in here...I think I can speak for everyone here and say that were you to accidentally knock a girl up we would certainly respect your conviction to ask the girl to marry you and raise the child together. In the same exact example I would respect her decision to choose not to marry and abort the fetus early term if that were her wishes. I actually think that more RESPONSIBLE people tend to choose abortions because they really did think through the ramifications of their decision instead of just saying "OH! it would be SO much fun to have a little baby that loves me!"
I can't agree with that. Being responsible means living with your actions. To kill an unborn child should be the absolute last resort, but it is far too common. There are other options. Adoption comes to mind as the most responsible option for someone who does not with to be responsible for a child.

[CosmicCowboy]

I can't agree with that. Being responsible means living with your actions. To kill an unborn child should be the absolute last resort, but it is far too common. There are other options. Adoption comes to mind as the most responsible option for someone who does not with to be responsible for a child.

Fine

Then live your life to those standards.

Don't try to force your standards on us.

[clambake]

Fine

Then live your life to those standards.

Don't try to force your standards on us.

this

[leemajors]

Fine

Then live your life to those standards.

Don't try to force your standards on us.

:tu

[Wild Cobra]

Fine

Then live your life to those standards.

Don't try to force your standards on us.
Protecting the innocent is force? I'm sorry, but I see it no different than murder.

[CosmicCowboy]

Protecting the innocent is force? I'm sorry, but I see it no different than murder.

Well, I don't think this issue will be solved in here. You certainly aren't going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours.

Thats why the republicans need to shut the fuck up about abortion. They are NEVER going to get a majority to end it so it's just silly season to keep hashing over it.

[Drachen]

Fine

Then live your life to those standards.

Don't try to force your standards on us.

[LnGrrrR]

But at that point somebody other than the mother can provide those needs.

True, which is I think it will be interesting in the future when fetii will be able to live outside the mother at earlier and earlier stages of life.

[coyotes_geek]

Fine

Then live your life to those standards.

Don't try to force your standards on us.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, I don't think this issue will be solved in here. You certainly aren't going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours.

Thats why the republicans need to shut the fuck up about abortion. They are NEVER going to get a majority to end it so it's just silly season to keep hashing over it.
Both sides need to drop it. Besides, it should be a states rights issue.

[ElNono]

True, which is I think it will be interesting in the future when fetii will be able to live outside the mother at earlier and earlier stages of life.

Well, as I said, things like adoption would probably be easier to accommodate at that point. Right now though, forcing somebody to go through a pregnancy against their will is retarded, IMO.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, as I said, things like adoption would probably be easier to accommodate at that point. Right now though, forcing somebody to go through a pregnancy against their will is retarded, IMO.
There is another perspective. If getting pregnant meant carrying to full term, then girls would be more responsible about the issue, and be more proactive at not becoming pregnant.

[Spurminator]

Abortions aren't accidental.

That's completely irrelevant to the comparison.

[ElNono]

Fine

Then live your life to those standards.

Don't try to force your standards on us.

:tu

[ElNono]

There is another perspective. If getting pregnant meant carrying to full term, then girls would be more responsible about the issue, and be more proactive at not becoming pregnant.

Responsible about what? Getting raped? You're making zero sense.

[Spurminator]

I'm sorry, but I see it no different than murder.

Well, let me help you see a difference. A murderer is not faced with a decision of whether or not to have his potential victim living in his belly for 40 weeks.

[EVAY]

WC, Yoni and all the other pro-lifers in here...I think I can speak for everyone here and say that were you to accidentally knock a girl up we would certainly respect your conviction to ask the girl to marry you and raise the child together. In the same exact example I would respect her decision to choose not to marry and abort the fetus early term if that were her wishes. I actually think that more RESPONSIBLE people tend to choose abortions because they really did think through the ramifications of their decision instead of just saying "OH! it would be SO much fun to have a little baby that loves me!"

Agreed. Important point is 'early enough'. I just don't see a problem with first trimester. At that point, the decision to abort can be the most responsible decision a woman can make.

Biggest thing though...it is a woman's decision. No one else gets to to make that personal a decision.

[Wild Cobra]

Responsible about what? Getting raped? You're making zero sense.
That's different. I mean getting pregnant in general. Rape is a small percentage of pregnancies, and procedures can be implemented right afterwards that prevent the fetus from starting to develop. We can agree to such exceptions, can't we? This is completely different that aborting weeks or months into a pregnancy.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, let me help you see a difference. A murderer is not faced with a decision of whether or not to have his potential victim living in his belly for 40 weeks.
When it was by their irresponsible actions, I say too fucking bad.

Thou shalt not kill.

[Wild Cobra]

Agreed. Important point is 'early enough'. I just don't see a problem with first trimester. At that point, the decision to abort can be the most responsible decision a woman can make.

Biggest thing though...it is a woman's decision. No one else gets to to make that personal a decision.
Shouldn't the father have a say?

[EVAY]

There is another perspective. If getting pregnant meant carrying to full term, then girls would be more responsible about the issue, and be more proactive at not becoming pregnant.

seriously?

Do you realize what you just said?

Do you imagine that people were more responsible about having sex in years past when abortion was illegal?

Seriously?

And it is the girl who has to be 'proactive' about becoming pregnant.

You should not be making that decision for any woman on this planet.

[Wild Cobra]

seriously?

Do you realize what you just said?

Do you imagine that people were more responsible about having sex in years past when abortion was illegal?

Seriously?

And it is the girl who has to be 'proactive' about becoming pregnant.

You should not be making that decision for any woman on this planet.
Yes, I know what I'm saying. I think you will agree there is rarely a perfect solution to anything.

[EVAY]

Shouldn't the father have a say?

Not unless he can figure a way to carry the fetus in his own ballooning belly for nine months and then bring it up on his own completely with no help from the other partner.

[Wild Cobra]

Not unless he can figure a way to carry the fetus in his own ballooning belly for nine months and then bring it up on his own completely with no help from the other partner.
So you are OK with irresponsible sex.

[leemajors]

So you are OK with irresponsible sex.

Broken condoms or the small % of birth control pregnancies are lumped under irresposible?

[EVAY]

Actually I am okay with recreational sex, which is not the same thing as irresponsible sex.

It rarely works to try to put words in my mouth.

I am okay with shared responsibility for sex.

[CosmicCowboy]

You know what? I hate to get started on this shit. It really pisses me off. Not only do you have no right to force your beliefs on ME you DAMN SURE have no fucking right to force your beliefs on MY DAUGHTER.

And if you HONESTLY think Republicans have a snowballs chance of abolishing abortion you are delusional.

Abortion is a personal decision that everyone has to make on a personal case by case basis.

So don't TELL me that the "polls are swinging your way" and that now "50% of the people are pro-life"

The Pro Choice decision is black and white, but the pro life choice in practice has a million shades of gray. It's one thing to say "this is what I believe is right for me" but an entirely different animal to say "this is what I think is right for YOU." Fortunately the extreme pro lifers are still a fringe element and there are a lot more "pro-life" folks out there that are willing to let others make their own moral decisions.

[Wild Cobra]

Broken condoms or the small % of birth control pregnancies are lumped under irresposible?

Yes.

There is no garentee associated with them. Responsibility includes being ready to take care of a child if you accidentally have one. Abortions should not be used as birth control.

[Spurminator]

So you are OK with irresponsible sex.

I don't think it should be penalized by law for 40 weeks.

[CosmicCowboy]

And the fact that the Republican party panders to these fucking extremists disgusts me...just not enough to vote for Obama.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't think it should be penalized by law for 40 weeks.
Why not?

If you drink and drive and get caught, are you not penalized by law?

Always accept the results of your actions.

[clambake]

bottomfeeder

[CosmicCowboy]

Why not?

If you drink and drive and get caught, are you not penalized by law?

Always accept the results of your actions.

Well, if your actions make abortion illegal are you going to take the responsibility for raising all those babies to competent adulthood?

[Drachen]

You know what? I hate to get started on this shit. It really pisses me off. Not only do you have no right to force your beliefs on ME you DAMN SURE have no fucking right to force your beliefs on MY DAUGHTER.

And if you HONESTLY think Republicans have a snowballs chance of abolishing abortion you are delusional.

Abortion is a personal decision that everyone has to make on a personal case by case basis.

So don't TELL me that the "polls are swinging your way" and that now "50% of the people are pro-life"

The Pro Choice decision is black and white, but the pro life choice in practice has a million shades of gray. It's one thing to say "this is what I believe is right for me" but an entirely different animal to say "this is what I think is right for YOU." Fortunately the extreme pro lifers are still a fringe element and there are a lot more "pro-life" folks out there that are willing to let others make their own moral decisions.

Bingo. My daughter was a part of that very small percentage of birth control babies so my then girlfriend (now wife) and I both looked at each other took a deep breath and started talking. One of the first things that we got out of the way was that she wasn't being aborted (we had known each other off and on for a about 12 years but had only started dating 3 months prior). Both of us are vehemently pro-choice, OUR choice is no abortions. You can choose whatever you want, but it's your CHOICE! GTF outta here with trying to dictate someone elses choice.

[DMX7]

then girls would be more responsible about the issue, and be more proactive at not becoming pregnant.

:lol

[CuckingFunt]

I take it nothing's been said in here that hasn't already been said in the previous ST Political Forum abortion debates?

[ElNono]

That's different. I mean getting pregnant in general. Rape is a small percentage of pregnancies, and procedures can be implemented right afterwards that prevent the fetus from starting to develop. We can agree to such exceptions, can't we?

Those are the exceptions we were actually discussing, unless this got derailed at some point. Apparently there's some people that doesn't agree with such exceptions.

[Wild Cobra]

I take it nothing's been said in here that hasn't already been said in the previous ST Political Forum abortion debates?
Looks like nothing new yet.

[Spurminator]

Why not?

If you drink and drive and get caught, are you not penalized by law?

Always accept the results of your actions.

Drinking and driving is illegal. Unprotected sex is not.

Do you think it should be, libertarian?

[leemajors]

You know what? I hate to get started on this shit. It really pisses me off. Not only do you have no right to force your beliefs on ME you DAMN SURE have no fucking right to force your beliefs on MY DAUGHTER.

And if you HONESTLY think Republicans have a snowballs chance of abolishing abortion you are delusional.

Abortion is a personal decision that everyone has to make on a personal case by case basis.

So don't TELL me that the "polls are swinging your way" and that now "50% of the people are pro-life"

The Pro Choice decision is black and white, but the pro life choice in practice has a million shades of gray. It's one thing to say "this is what I believe is right for me" but an entirely different animal to say "this is what I think is right for YOU." Fortunately the extreme pro lifers are still a fringe element and there are a lot more "pro-life" folks out there that are willing to let others make their own moral decisions.

:tu yet again. you work damn hard to ensure your daughter can think for herself and make her own decisions. no one should be able to take that away.

[Wild Cobra]

Drinking and driving is illegal. Unprotected sex is not.

Do you think it should be, libertarian?
The difference between libertarians and anarchists is that the libertarian takes responsibility for they actions. Abortion beyond something like the morning after pill should be illegal.

[CosmicCowboy]

Why is a middle aged single man with no children so determined to lay claim to women's right to choose?

[CuckingFunt]

Abortion beyond something the the morning after pill should be illegal.

Because that will totally stop women from having them.

[Wild Cobra]

Why is a middle aged single man with no children so determined to lay claim to women's right to choose?
Who has no children?

[CosmicCowboy]

Who has no children?

my mistake.

Any daughters?

[Wild Cobra]

my mistake.

Any daughters?
Two. Both in their 20's now.

[Spurminator]

The difference between libertarians and anarchists is that the libertarian takes responsibility for they actions.

"Taking responsibility" in this case is subjective.

[CosmicCowboy]

Two. Both in their 20's now.

What would you do if one chose to get a legal abortion because she felt that was the right thing for her in her situation?

[Wild Cobra]

"Taking responsibility" in this case is subjective.
I will agree to that, but I disagree that abortion is the responsible way to followup the irresponsibility of creating life when you aren't ready for such a burden.

These people who have protected sex, and aren't ready to take care of a child should the protection not work, may as well play Russian Roulette. At least they would be accidentally killing themselves instead of the innocent.

[Wild Cobra]

What would you do if one chose to get a legal abortion because she felt that was the right thing for her in her situation?
I would be very surprised. Surprised to the point I think it's a laughable possibility. Not only were they raised better than that, but they have full family support if needed, and have better moral values than someone who would abort.

[CosmicCowboy]

I would be very surprised. Surprised to the point I think it's a laughable possibility. Not only were they raised better than that, but they have full family support if needed, and have better moral values than someone who would abort.

Kids can always surprise you. They aren't clones of you and at some point you lose the right to push your values on them.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's a hypothetical. What if it was YOUR daughter?

[CuckingFunt]

I will agree to that, but I disagree that abortion is the responsible way to followup the irresponsibility of creating life when you aren't ready for such a burden.

These people who have protected sex, and aren't ready to take care of a child should the protection not work, may as well play Russian Roulette. At least they would be accidentally killing themselves instead of the innocent.

People who have protected sex aren't innocent?

[Drachen]

I would be very surprised. Surprised to the point I think it's a laughable possibility. Not only were they raised better than that, but they have full family support if needed, and have better moral values than someone who would abort.

Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge!

[Spurminator]

I will agree to that, but I disagree that abortion is the responsible way to followup the irresponsibility of creating life when you aren't ready for such a burden.

Then you are free to say so. You are free to discourage your daughters and to educate the masses about the moral indecency of abortion. But you can't physically enforce it or penalize it.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's a hypothetical. What if it was YOUR daughter?

*crickets*

[CuckingFunt]

Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge!

Something tells me Patches O'Hoolihan was very pro-choice.

[Wild Cobra]

Kids can always surprise you. They aren't clones of you and at some point you lose the right to push your values on them.
This I know, and it would be a very big surprise.

[Wild Cobra]

It's a hypothetical. What if it was YOUR daughter?
What can I do besides express my opinions and support to have them do otherwise? Not a whole lot, right?

[jack sommerset]

You would be asking a lot from a 15 year old girl to have a baby that resulted from rape. I couldn't ask that. I don't think God would either but I don't know. God holds us to a higher standard than we do ourselves. This situation prolly happens more than reported. I have a daughter and I would advise her to abort and pray I gave the right advice. Unless the mother is going to die giving birth I can't think of to many other reasons I would support abortion. It's absolutely not as simple as some of you make it out to be. God bless

[Spurminator]

What can I do besides express my opinions and support to have them do otherwise? Not a whole lot, right?

You could vote to make it illegal so then they would go to prison!

[Yonivore]

It's a hypothetical. What if it was YOUR daughter?
Here's a hypothetical; what if your daughter were brutally raped and murdered?

What keeps you from hunting down the perpetrator(s) and slowly torturing them to death?

[Spurminator]

You are really bad at analogies.

[Drachen]

Here's a hypothetical; what if your daughter were brutally raped and murdered?

What keeps you from hunting down the perpetrator(s) and slowly torturing them to death?

Him being in police custody?

[Yonivore]

Him being in police custody?
The law. Very good.

So, why not just go out and hunt down and murder a perfect stranger, in a fit of revenge?

[CuckingFunt]

You are really bad at analogies.

Fuckin' epidemic 'round these parts.

[Drachen]

The law. Very good.

So, why not just go out and hunt down and murder a perfect stranger, in a fit of revenge?

Not the law... the lack of access.



As far as this stranger, do they hang out right next to me 24 hours a day saying 7 days a week for 40 weeks saying "your daughter was raped and murdered"?

[Yonivore]

As far as this stranger, do they hang out right next to me 24 hours a day saying 7 days a week for 40 weeks saying "your daughter was raped and murdered"?
So, you're good with murder simply because the person reminds you of something horrible over which they had absolutely no control

[Drachen]

So, you're good with murder simply because the person reminds you of something horrible over which they had absolutely no control

I wouldn't murder that person, but I would beat the shit outta them until they stopped. They totally have control over saying "your daughter was raped and murdered" every five minutes.

I would probably get a restraining order or something too. I mean I don't want this person, who you say is a stranger, following me home, into my house, etc. I would do what I could to get that person away from me. I guess to cut this stranger out of my life.

[Yonivore]

I wouldn't murder that person, but I would beat the shit outta them until they stopped. They totally have control over saying "your daughter was raped and murdered" every five minutes.
An unborn child has absolutely no control over being conceived.

[Drachen]

An unborn child has absolutely no control over being conceived.

and a woman doesn't have control over being raped. Thank you for proving our point.

[Spurminator]

The law. Very good.

So, why not just go out and hunt down and murder a perfect stranger, in a fit of revenge?


I mean it's not even close...

[CosmicCowboy]

What can I do besides express my opinions and support to have them do otherwise? Not a whole lot, right?

Not a bad answer. Now put HER face on all those other women you want to criminalize.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Since 2 parent homes are better for kids, why don't we force the rapist marry the woman he impregnated? It is in the best interest of that poor little innocent baby...

[Yonivore]

and a woman doesn't have control over being raped. Thank you for proving our point.
So, that gives her the right to kill an innocent child?

[ElNono]

Here's another hypothetical: what if you had a llama and it took a shit on your brand new garden? What prevents you from killing the llama? What if the llama is pregnant???!!?!?!

[CosmicCowboy]

Here's a hypothetical; what if your daughter were brutally raped and murdered?

What keeps you from hunting down the perpetrator(s) and slowly torturing them to death?

If I was 100% certain and the law didn't deal with them properly that is exactly what I would do.

[Yonivore]

If I was 100% certain and the law didn't deal with them properly that is exactly what I would do.
Okay. You're a vigilante. Cool.

[ElNono]

Would it be ok for the resident pro-lifers if the fetus would be removed without damaging it and then die on it's own? Would the fetus dying out of it's inability to survive on it's own would be an acceptable compromise?

[CosmicCowboy]

Okay. You're a vigilante. Cool.

Fortunately I haven't been put in that situation but yeah, I'm pretty sure what I would do.

[ElNono]

Fortunately I haven't been put in that situation but yeah, I'm pretty sure what I would do.

I'm 100% with you. You can mess with anything but my family.

[jack sommerset]

I'm 100% with you. You can mess with anything but my family.

I hate to even ask this to you but feel I have to. A girl and a guy plan to have a baby. Girl gets pregnant but decides the next day she doesn't want the baby and aborts it. Does the guy feel he should track her down for killing his family member. God bless

[Spurminator]

I hate to even ask this to you but feel I have to. A girl and a guy plan to have a baby. Girl gets pregnant but decides the next day she doesn't want the baby and aborts it. Does the guy feel he should track her down for killing his family member. God bless


I think the guy has every right to be pissed off in that situation. Maybe even justified in pursuing legal action.

Doesn't mean she should go to jail.

tbh, imho son, ron bless

[jack sommerset]

I think the guy has every right to be pissed off in that situation. Maybe even justified in pursuing legal action.

Doesn't mean she should go to jail.

tbh, imho son, ron bless

I'm not talking about jail time, brother. Yoni suggested hunting down the dude and torturing him to death, vigilante style. God bless

[Spurminator]

I'm not talking about jail time, brother. Yoni suggested hunting down the dude and torturing him to death, vigilante style. God bless

The question sort of derails your own argument. Most guys probably wouldn't go vigilante on their girl for aborting their fetus. Yet a lot more guys would claim to be okay with going vigilante on someone who murdered their kid.

Makes you wonder if maybe most people subconsciously realize there's a difference in the two situations?

[Yonivore]

I'm not talking about jail time, brother. Yoni suggested hunting down the dude and torturing him to death, vigilante style. God bless
My point is I don't see much difference between someone raping and murdering my daughter and someone murdering an unborn child that had no choice in being conceived.

[Spurminator]

My point is I don't see much difference between someone raping and murdering my daughter and someone murdering an unborn child that had no choice in being conceived.

Your daughter wasn't inside of them.

See?

[CuckingFunt]

My point is I don't see much difference between someone raping and murdering my daughter and someone murdering an unborn child that had no choice in being conceived.

That's pretty fucked up.

[Gold Tooth Carl]

My point is I don't see much difference between someone raping and murdering my daughter and someone murdering an unborn child that had no choice in being conceived.

So the woman had a choice in being raped?

[Wild Cobra]

Not a bad answer. Now put HER face on all those other women you want to criminalize.
Today is different from this alternate reality you speak of. If it were illegal, I am positive she wouldn't.

[ElNono]

I hate to even ask this to you but feel I have to. A girl and a guy plan to have a baby. Girl gets pregnant but decides the next day she doesn't want the baby and aborts it. Does the guy feel he should track her down for killing his family member. God bless

What's the question?

[Wild Cobra]

Since 2 parent homes are better for kids, why don't we force the rapist marry the woman he impregnated? It is in the best interest of that poor little innocent baby...
No.

We should make rapists a boy-toy for prison inmates.

[Yonivore]

Your daughter wasn't inside of them.

See?
Which raises a good point. Why is it considered murder if an unborn child dies during an assault on the mother?

[Yonivore]

That's pretty fucked up.
And, our society allows it 1.21 million times a year. You ain't shittin' that's fucked up.

[Wild Cobra]

If I was 100% certain and the law didn't deal with them properly that is exactly what I would do.
I would find a way to do so too I think.

[Yonivore]

So the woman had a choice in being raped?
Nope; but, it's not the child's fault - why kill it?

[Wild Cobra]

Would it be ok for the resident pro-lifers if the fetus would be removed without damaging it and then die on it's own? Would the fetus dying out of it's inability to survive on it's own would be an acceptable compromise?
Would that be the equivalent of taking you out of your home, and putting you in a hungry lions den?

[Spurminator]

Which raises a good point. Why is it considered murder if an unborn child dies during an assault on the mother?

LOL you're as bad at segues as you are at analogies.

[ElNono]

My point is I don't see much difference between someone raping and murdering my daughter and someone murdering an unborn child that had no choice in being conceived.

How about the woman just having the fetus removed unharmed from her body. The fetus then just dies. Would that be murder too?

[Wild Cobra]

How about the woman just having the fetus removed unharmed from her body. The fetus then just dies. Would that be murder too?
How about we lock you in a room for six months with no food or water?

[Yonivore]

How about the woman just having the fetus removed unharmed from her body. The fetus then just dies. Would that be murder too?
Yes; if you knew it would result in the death of the child.

[Yonivore]

LOL you're as bad at segues as you are at analogies.
So, why is it murder?

[ElNono]

Would that be the equivalent of taking you out of your home, and putting you in a hungry lions den?

Not really. It would be more akin to you being connected to a respiratory machine and getting unplugged.

[CuckingFunt]

And, our society allows it 1.21 million times a year. You ain't shittin' that's fucked up.

No.

I meant it's fucked up to consider your daughter analogous to a fetus, which has no personality, no agency, and lacks the ability to live outside of its mother's womb.

[ElNono]

Yes; if you knew it would result in the death of the child.

Why? The fetus was alive when removed.

[jack sommerset]

My point is I don't see much difference between someone raping and murdering my daughter and someone murdering an unborn child that had no choice in being conceived.

I understand your point. I don't agree with it but certainly understand it. God may very well agree with you. I don't know. I know if that happen to my daughter I would support and advise her to abort. I know I would do that. Right or wrong, I couldn't tell you but I would drive her to the hospital myself. This is a tough, emotional subject. It's not cut and dry like some wold think it is. God bless

[Spurminator]

So, why is it murder?

Because the mother chose to keep the child. So you have robbed her of the baby she was going to have, and robbed the baby of a life it was going to have as a result of the mother choosing to keep it.

[Yonivore]

No.

I meant it's fucked up to consider your daughter analogous to a fetus, which has no personality, no agency, and lacks the ability to live outside of its mother's womb.
And, I think it's fucked up you nonchalantly discard a child.

[ElNono]

How about we lock you in a room for six months with no food or water?

How about it?

[Wild Cobra]

Not really. It would be more akin to you being connected to a respiratory machine and getting unplugged.

Yes, you are unplugging the fetus from its life support.

Isn't it murder if you purposely unplug someone on life support, unless their living will states such a thing, or unless they are never going to live off life support?

A fetus will mature to be able to live off of life support.

[CuckingFunt]

And, I think it's fucked up you nonchalantly discard a child.

And I think it's fucked up that you, a man, for whom pregnancy is only ever a hypothetical, would assume nonchalance.

[Wild Cobra]

How about it?
Well, you were alive and unharmed when we put you there. How is it different that your proposal?

[ElNono]

Yes, you are unplugging the fetus from its life support.

The problem is that 'life support' in this case isn't a machine. It's another person. If the person doesn't want to provide such life support, why should it?

[Yonivore]

Because the mother chose to keep the child. So you have robbed her of the baby she was going to have, and robbed the baby of a life it was going to have as a result of the mother choosing to keep it.
Now, who's making my point?

Abortion is also robbing the baby of a life it was going to have -- whether or not the mother chooses to allow it to live should be irrelevant.

I'm glad, at least, you recognize the baby as an individual capable of being deprived of life.

[Yonivore]

And I think it's fucked up that you, a man, for whom pregnancy is only ever a hypothetical, would assume nonchalance.
1.21 million a year is nonchalant.

[ElNono]

Well, you were alive and unharmed when we put you there. How is it different that your proposal?

I use my cellphone, call the police, get unlocked and get you in jail.

Do you understand the difference between an autonomous being and a fetus now?

[Gold Tooth Carl]

Nope; but, it's not the child's fault - why kill it?

It's not the woman's fault either, so why keep it?

[Wild Cobra]

The problem is that 'life support' in this case isn't a machine. It's another person. If the person doesn't want to provide such life support, why should it?
What if the hospital doesn't want to provide your life support because you cant pay?

[ElNono]

1.21 million a year is nonchalant.

What's the number that works for you? 10 a year? 100? Where's this magical number that makes it 'nonchalant'?

[jack sommerset]

A fetus will mature to be able to live off of life support.

I love how some of the guys say "science" says a fetus its not a baby therefore you are not killing a human being. So ridiculous. Talk about denial. You have a baby growing inside you for crying out loud! God bless

[ElNono]

What if the hospital doesn't want to provide your life support because you cant pay?

The hospital doesn't have that option, thanks to Saint Ronnie.

[Wild Cobra]

I love how some of the guys say "science" says a fetus its not a baby therefore you are not killing a human being. So ridiculous. Talk about denial. You have a baby growing inside you for crying out loud! God bless
I'm just using ElNono's examples and applying logic to them.

[Spurminator]

Now, who's making my point?

Not me. I'm addressing your latest bad comparison.


Abortion is also robbing the baby of a life it was going to have -- whether or not the mother chooses to allow it to live should be irrelevant.

We're aware that this is your opinion.


I'm glad, at least, you recognize the baby as an individual capable of being deprived of life.

Thanks, but I also believe the mother has the legal right to decide if she is going to carry that individual inside of her.

So I'm in no way making your point. The law considering the death of a fetus during assault as murder is perfectly compatible with abortion being legal. Because it starts with the mother's choice to complete the pregnancy.

[Yonivore]

It's not the woman's fault either, so why keep it?
Because it's an innocent child.

[ElNono]

I'm just using ElNono's examples and applying logic to them.

You've failed so far. Then again, your next 'logical' thought will probably be your first.

[Wild Cobra]

The hospital doesn't have that option, thanks to Saint Ronnie.
What is the moral difference? Are you saying you are for hospitals denying life saving care?

[CuckingFunt]

1.21 million a year is nonchalant.

I see.






But it's ridiculous to suggest there's any truth to the "war on women" accusations...

[ElNono]

Because it's an innocent child.

And she's an innocent mother...

[Yonivore]

And she's an innocent mother...
I'm not suggesting she be killed.

[ElNono]

What is the moral difference? Are you saying you are for hospitals denying life saving care?

No, I'm saying hospitals don't have a choice. Woman's do.

[jack sommerset]

I'm just using ElNono's examples and applying logic to them.

Elnono, at the end of the day, does not believe a fetus has rights. It's the mother choice up until like 5, 6 months. Something like that. God bless

[Yonivore]

I see.






But it's ridiculous to suggest there's any truth to the "war on women" accusations...
That's more like a war on unborn children with 1.21 million casualties a year.

[ElNono]

I'm not suggesting she be killed.

But you're demanding she carries on with something she doesn't want to do.

[Wild Cobra]

And she's an innocent mother...
That excuses murder?

[ElNono]

Elnono, at the end of the day, does not believe a fetus has rights. It's the mother choice up until like 5, 6 months. Something like that. God bless

I actually don't think an unborn has rights (as in legal rights) until he/she is born. But it's unrelated to abortion unless you're going for the 'right to life' angle.

I already stated I only support abortion only in cases of rape or incest. But I also think women know better, since they carry the pregnancies. So I'm ok with them making the decision.

[ElNono]

That excuses murder?

That means she gets to choose if she will host that parasite or not.

[Yonivore]

But you're demanding she carries on with something she doesn't want to do.
So, you advocate she be able to murder the child after it's born, if she doesn't want to "carry on with" it?

Is it okay simply because she can't see it?

[CuckingFunt]

The problem is that 'life support' in this case isn't a machine. It's another person. If the person doesn't want to provide such life support, why should it?What if the hospital doesn't want to provide your life support because you cant pay?

Another fucked up analogy.

[Yonivore]

That means she gets to choose if she will host that parasite or not.
It's a child.

[Wild Cobra]

I actually don't think an unborn has rights (as in legal rights) until he/she is born. But it's unrelated to abortion unless you're angling for the 'right to life' angle.

I already stated I only support abortion only in cases of rape or incest. But I also think women know better, since they carry the pregnancies. So I'm ok with them making the decision.
Fine.

Seek medical attention the same day or next day. Once the fetus starts to grow, I say no abortion. Especially after about 10 weeks.

[ElNono]

So, you advocate she be able to murder the child after it's born, if she doesn't want to "carry on with" it?

No such thing. When the child is born, it becomes autonomous and legally protected, and if the mother wants to abandon him or give it up for adoption, she's free to do so.


Is it okay simply because she can't see it?

No, it's ok because it's her body keeping that fetus alive during that time.

[jack sommerset]

I may very well be a hypocrite on this subject cuz I do support abortion under some circumstances, like rape for instance. This is a really a tough topic when you consider religion, human rights, science, morals, social, etc. i try not to judge people when it comes to abortions but I find myself doing more than I would like to. God bless

[ElNono]

It's a child.

Disagree. As I said, would you be ok if this 'child' is removed unharmed from the mother that doesn't want him? Why is it ok for the mother to abandon him after birth but not before birth?

[CuckingFunt]

That's more like a war on unborn children with 1.21 million casualties a year.

A war waged by inherently uncaring women, right?

[Wild Cobra]

Another fucked up analogy.
About as fucked up as the idea of removing the fetus unharmed.

[Spurminator]

Fine.

Seek medical attention the same day or next day. Once the fetus starts to grow, I say no abortion. Especially after about 10 weeks.

So you would mandate that women, within 24 hours of being raped, should make it a point to seek medication to terminate a *possible* pregnancy, or else they have to complete the pregnancy or face criminal punishment.

LOL libertarian

[Yonivore]

No such thing. When the child is born, it becomes autonomous and legally protected, and if the mother wants to abandon him or give it up for adoption, she's free to do so.
And, it's a legally protected child when it's killed in utero, as well; except, of course, when it's the mother that decides to kill it.


No, it's ok because it's her body keeping that fetus alive during that time.
And, if the baby is killed as a result of anyone's actions, except for the mother exercising the choice to abort, it's murder.

[Yonivore]

A war waged by inherently uncaring women, right?
A vast majority of them don't bat an eye.

[Spurminator]

And, it's a legally protected child when it's killed in utero, as well; except, of course, when it's the mother that decides to kill it.

And, if the baby is killed as a result of anyone's actions, except for the mother exercising the choice to abort, it's murder.

You're catching on! We have a breakthrough!

All of this is true because the baby is living inside of the mother, and not any of those other people.

[CuckingFunt]

About as fucked up as the idea of removing the fetus unharmed.

Firstly, by "fucked up," I meant that the analogy didn't even remotely conform to any sense of logic.

Secondly, the idea of removing the fetus unharmed was not presented as an analogy.

[Spurminator]

A vast majority of them don't bat an eye.

Where'd you read that?

[Yonivore]

You're catching on! We have a breakthrough!

All of this is true because the baby is living inside of the mother, and not any of those other people.
It's either a human life, deserving legal protections, or it isn't; make up your mind.

[jack sommerset]

And, if the baby is killed as a result of anyone's actions, except for the mother exercising the choice to abort, it's murder.

That's an excellent point. Now the die hards will say her body her choice aNd they make no wiggle room for anything else. God bless

[CuckingFunt]

A vast majority of them don't bat an eye.

And you know this because of how it felt that time you had to terminate a pregnancy?

[Spurminator]

It's either a human life, deserving legal protections, or it isn't; make up your mind.

It's a human life deserving legal protections that don't include living inside of an unwilling person for 9 months.

[ElNono]

And, it's a legally protected child when it's killed in utero, as well; except, of course, when it's the mother that decides to kill it.

We already went through the legal aspect. As it stands, an unborn is not a person or a child, it's a separate class named the unborn.


And, if the baby is killed as a result of anyone's actions, except for the mother exercising the choice to abort, it's murder.

But there's a specific reason for that: the fetus is wholly dependent on the mother. Thus if the mother decides she doesn't want to continue with the pregnancy, it's well within her rights to abort.

[Spurminator]

Yonivore, champion of absolutely equal rights for all living beings.

Except for gays, women, non-Christians, minorities, immigrants, and anyone suspected of a crime.

[Yonivore]

Where'd you read that?
If even a significant number of the 1.21 million women who get abortions, were agonizing over the choice, there'd be fewer abortions.

[ElNono]

Still waiting for an answer on this one:


What's the number that works for you? 10 a year? 100? Where's this magical number that makes it 'nonchalant'?

[Spurminator]

If even a significant number of the 1.21 million women who get abortions, were agonizing over the choice, there'd be fewer abortions.

Or maybe it's not 3 million because women are agonizing over the choice.

[CuckingFunt]

It's either a human life, deserving legal protections, or it isn't; make up your mind.

The point is that it's a human life growing inside of another human life. The mother, and her control over her own human body, is also deserving of legal protections.




I and the other people who support women's agency in their reproductive decisions are pretty unapologetic about the fact we see the rights of adult (or, at least, biologically adult) women as superseding those of an unborn fetus. It would be nice if people on your side of the argument were equally honest about making the opposite decision.

[ElNono]

That's an excellent point. Now the die hards will say her body her choice aNd they make no wiggle room for anything else. God bless

The SCOTUS said that through an informed decision... those die hards!

[Yonivore]

Still waiting for an answer on this one:
Why are you waiting? Your question didn't make any sense.


What's the number that works for you? 10 a year? 100? Where's this magical number that makes it 'nonchalant'?
1.21 million is nonchalant. It isn't 10 or 100.

[CuckingFunt]

I like to schedule my abortions on the same days as my mani/pedi.

[jack sommerset]

The SCOTUS said that through an informed decision... those die hards!

It's obvious why they made that decision. Im surprised you of all people agree with every decision SCOTUS makes. God bless

[ElNono]

Why are you waiting? Your question didn't make any sense.

Of course it makes sense. You're building your strawman over an arbitrary amount. I'm asking you what other arbitrary amount would make it OK.


1.21 million is nonchalant. It isn't 10 or 100.

Is 10 or 100 nonchalant? What's the 'acceptable' number?

[Yonivore]

The point is that it's a human life growing inside of another human life. The mother, and her control over her own human body, is also deserving of legal protections.
And, the child deserves legal protection, as well.


I and the other people who support women's agency in their reproductive decisions are pretty unapologetic about the fact we see the rights of adult (or, at least, biologically adult) women as superseding those of an unborn fetus. It would be nice if people on your side of the argument were equally honest about making the opposite decision.
Well, since the choice is rarely between the life of the mother and the life of the child, I'm pretty unapologetic about standing up for the innocent life that has absolutely no voice in the matter.

[jack sommerset]

I like to schedule my abortions on the same days as my mani/pedi.

Tasteful and classy. God bless

[ElNono]

It's obvious why they made that decision. Im surprised you of all people agree with every decision SCOTUS makes. God bless

What do you know about the decision? Did you know that an abortion in the 1st trimester carries less health risk for the mother than actually delivering?

[Wild Cobra]

So you would mandate that women, within 24 hours of being raped, should make it a point to seek medication to terminate a *possible* pregnancy, or else they have to complete the pregnancy or face criminal punishment.

LOL libertarian
Do you only have one narrow viewpoints of libertarianism?




1.2 Personal Privacy

Libertarians support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons, homes, and property. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should include records held by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records. Only actions that infringe on the rights of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.

[Yonivore]

Of course it makes sense. You're building your strawman over an arbitrary amount. I'm asking you what other arbitrary amount would make it OK.
That's not an arbitrary amount. There are actually 1.21 million abortions a year, in the United States.


Is 10 or 100 nonchalant? What's the 'acceptable' number?
Give me the number of pregnancies that result from incest and rape, subtract that from 1.21 million, and you have your number.

[ploto]

All of this discussion brought to mind a show I saw years ago. I think it was Phil Donahue. That tells you how long ago it was. A woman came on there because she wanted help in figuring out how to tell her son he was the result of a rape. She had decided that now that he was an adult that he should know that she had decided to keep the baby that had resulted from this rape, especially because family members knew. The worst part for her was that he looked just like the man who had raped her. Everyday she said she looked at her son and saw the man who did this to her. I just can not imagine what that was like for her.

[Spurminator]

Do you only have one narrow viewpoints of libertarianism?

Just tell me this is actually what you think should be the law of the land:

Women, within 24 hours of being raped, should make it a point to seek medication to terminate a *possible* pregnancy, or else they have to complete the pregnancy or face criminal punishment.

[ElNono]

That's not an arbitrary amount. There are actually 1.21 million abortions a year, in the United States.

It's an arbitrary amount when it comes to describing it as non-chalant.


Give me the number of pregnancies that result from incest and rape, subtract that from 1.21 million, and you have your number.

Fair enough.

[Wild Cobra]

Just tell me this is actually what you think should be the law of the land:

Women, within 24 hours of being raped, should make it a point to seek medication to terminate a *possible* pregnancy, or else they have to complete the pregnancy or face criminal punishment.
Something along those lines, but the finer details need worked out. The abortion provider need to go to prison.

Still, it should be a states rights issue, without the federals telling everyone how to do it. My idea wouldn't be right for all 50 states, and I wouldn't expect it to be.

[CuckingFunt]

Well, since the choice is rarely between the life of the mother and the life of the child, I'm pretty unapologetic about standing up for the innocent life that has absolutely no voice in the matter.

The argument could be made that the expenses and physical limitations that come with a nine month pregnancy can often have an irreversible (and not always positive) effect on a woman's life. Especially a woman for whom a lack of financial and emotional support contribute to their decision to abort.

But it's an argument you're not open to, so I won't bother.

[ElNono]

Something along those lines

:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

The argument could be made that the expenses and physical limitations that come with a nine month pregnancy can often have an irreversible (and not always positive) effect on a woman's life. Especially a woman for whom a lack of financial and emotional support contribute to their decision to abort.

But it's an argument you're not open to, so I won't bother.
Then the stupid bitch shouldn't have been so careless taking a chance of getting pregnant.

We all agree rape is different, but having sex and not considering the possibilities is no excuse.

[Yonivore]

The argument could be made that the expenses and physical limitations that come with a nine month pregnancy can often have an irreversible (and not always positive) effect on a woman's life. Especially a woman for whom a lack of financial and emotional support contribute to their decision to abort.

But it's an argument you're not open to, so I won't bother.
Abortion has it's limitations, risks, and side-effects too. Many of them just as crippling and lethal.

Prenatal care and placing your child for adoption is free.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao
But you would take the fetus off life support and at as if that isn't a certain death.

[Spurminator]

Something along those lines, but the finer details need worked out. The abortion provider need to go to prison.

The result would still be the same. You'd force a woman to take steps to prevent a pregnancy past 24 hours of their rape, or complete the pregnancy because they can't get a legal abortion.


Still, it should be a states rights issue, without the federals telling everyone how to do it. My idea wouldn't be right for all 50 states, and I wouldn't expect it to be.

That's a cop-out. Why should an unborn child's rights be different in Oregon than they are in Kansas?

[ElNono]

Then the stupid bitch shouldn't have been so careless taking a chance of getting pregnant.

How about responsible, non-stupid bitches that do use birth-control but fails?

Do only those with money are allowed to have sex now?

[Wild Cobra]

Abortion has it's limitations, risks, and side-effects too. Many of them just as crippling and lethal.

Prenatal care and placing your child for adoption is free.
There are even families that will take care of a mother well while she is pregnant with their child to be.

[Spurminator]

Then the stupid bitch shouldn't have been so careless taking a chance of getting pregnant.

We all agree rape is different, but having sex and not considering the possibilities is no excuse.

At least WC is upfront about his position. He doesn't hide behind faux compassion for unborn children. It's really about giving wanton sluts their comeuppance.

[ElNono]

But you would take the fetus off life support and at as if that isn't a certain death.

The "life support" is another person and "the stupid bitch" has rights too.

[ElNono]

At least WC is upfront about his position. He doesn't hide behind faux compassion for unborn children. It's really about giving wanton sluts their comeuppance.

pretty much

[Spurminator]

Abortion has it's limitations, risks, and side-effects too. Many of them just as crippling and lethal.

Prenatal care and placing your child for adoption is free.

That sounds like a nice pamphlet you can make and mail to pregnant women.

[CuckingFunt]

Then the stupid bitch shouldn't have been so careless taking a chance of getting pregnant.

We all agree rape is different, but having sex and not considering the possibilities is no excuse.

Because stupid bitches are the only ones who have sex.

[ElNono]

That sounds like a nice pamphlet you can make and mail to pregnant women.

Actually, while they're having their mandated sonogram...

[Wild Cobra]

The result would still be the same. You'd force a woman to take steps to prevent a pregnancy past 24 hours of their rape, or complete the pregnancy because they can't get a legal abortion.
Like I said, the details need worked out. I believe medically, that the 24hrs is actually about a 72hr window.

That's a cop-out. Why should an unborn child's rights be different in Oregon than they are in Kansas?

I would like to see a ban on abortion in all 50 states. However, I believe in the constitution. Don't you? Can you say 10th amendment?

Roe vs. Wade took states rights away in the case of abortion.

[ElNono]

Roe vs. Wade took states rights away in the case of abortion.

It did no such thing. What do you know about Roe vs Wade anyways?

[CuckingFunt]

Abortion has it's limitations, risks, and side-effects too. Many of them just as crippling and lethal.

Prenatal care and placing your child for adoption is free.


There are even families that will take care of a mother well while she is pregnant with their child to be.

Oh, well, then, of course. Pregnancy is a walk in the park.

As you both would know.

[Spurminator]

Like I said, the details need worked out. I believe medically, that the 24hrs is actually about a 72hr window.

Well make sure you talk to some raped women while you're working all that out. Make sure you ask how long after a rape until they're ready to consider the possibility that there might be something living inside of them, and when they'd be ready to take every precaution to prevent that thing from growing much.


I would like to see a ban on abortion in all 50 states. However, I believe in the constitution. Don't you? Can you say 10th amendment?

Roe vs. Wade took states rights away in the case of abortion.

Still a cop out. If you were really adamant about the unborn child's right to life this would supersede any discussion of state vs. federal jurisdiction.

[ElNono]

As a matter of fact, the SCOTUS recognized the state had a compelling interest...

[Yonivore]

Oh, well, then, of course. Pregnancy is a walk in the park.

As you both would know.
No but, that it isn't, doesn't justify murdering a child.

[Wild Cobra]

As a matter of fact, the SCOTUS recognized the state had a compelling interest...
Yes, but they make any abortion ban illegal.

[ElNono]

It's clear that the first thought these stupid bitches should have after they get raped is to remember to call their doctors and make an appointment...

[CuckingFunt]

I wonder if Wild Cobra knows that a morning after pill is already pretty standard to the meds administered to a woman after rape (unless refused), along with various STI vaccines and a round of anti-HIV meds.

I also wonder if Wild Cobra knows how many women deny the fact they were raped, even to themselves, until long after it happened. Because of, you know, all that judgment and shame and emotional trauma, and stuff.

[ElNono]

Yes, but they make any abortion ban illegal.

They didn't. They had to balance two rights, the woman's right to privacy and the states rights to regulate healthcare. And so they struck a balance: in the first 24 weeks or so, when abortion is actually less risky than childbirth, the women gets to choose. After that, the state is allowed to regulate.

As stated already a few weeks back, the whole conundrum here is with the mother. The constitution provides no rights to the unborn.

Now you might disagree that the mother should have any rights, or that government should trump individual rights, but then that wouldn't be anything new with you.

[Wild Cobra]

I wonder if Wild Cobra knows that a morning after pill is already pretty standard to the meds administered to a woman after rape (unless refused), along with various STI vaccines and a round of anti-HIV meds.

I also wonder if Wild Cobra knows how many women deny the fact they were raped, even to themselves, until long after it happened. Because of, you know, all that judgment and shame and emotional trauma, and stuff.
On the first account, yes I am aware. On the second account, I think there would be some truth to that, but far less if the laws were changed.

Poor decisions should not result in the murder of innocent life. Period.

[Kidd K]

Certain things shouldn't even be up for discussion. This being one of them. You should always be legally allowed to get an abortion if you were raped. You could legally classify being forced to carry a rape pregnancy by law as both mental and physical torture. Every single day you're reminded about the day you were raped, and every day you look at your kid you're reminded of it. Of course, dumping your kid off at the local "Abandon and Go" orphanage/foster care agency is always the preferred option for insensitive bible thumpers who never had to live through that situation, not only destroying one life but statistically tarnishing the unwanted kid's life straight from birth.

Statistically, abandoned kids are much more likely than normally raised kids to: use drugs, go to prison, sell their bodies, kill themselves, develop mental and physical conditions, be homeless both either before or after being 18, be abused by their "parents" or caretakers, not go to college or even get a high school diploma, etc.

I don't see these egg and sperm saving bible thumpers talking about that shit. Half of those same nitwits probably want it to be illegal to jerk off too. I mean, you're wasting that valuble God sperm! Those are living things too. Of course, it isn't illegal to hit an animal with your car, or go hunting and killing animals for sport. Since apparently not all life actually has meaning.


Luckily, not every state is full of misogynistic clowns that don't give a shit about women's rights. So if people want abortions, they can just go to another state that allows it and do it therem completely bypassing the fucked up laws that the more right-wing states still have an iron grip on.

[CuckingFunt]

On the first account, yes I am aware.

Then why have you spent so much of this thread suggesting that women should be legally obligated to medicate themselves after being raped?


On the second account, I think there would be some truth to that, but far less if the laws were changed.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.


Poor decisions should not result in the murder of innocent life. Period.

In the context of the comment to which your responding, your panicked, talking point death rattle appears to suggest that getting raped is a poor decision.