Shaq v. Duncan

[TwoHandJam]

So, the age-old debate resurfaces once more. Duncan has earned his 3rd ring as well as his 3rd finals MVP nomination to even things up with Shaq.

Shaq won his titles back-to-back-to-back in a flurry of dominance. Duncan's titles haven't been successive but two were accomplished without another all-star.

Is Shaq clearly on the decline now? Will Duncan's youth prove to be the difference? A case could be made that Duncan has broken down somewhat as well these past years. Will a year of rest rejuvenate him? Can Shaq once again get close to his 2001 form?

Tim's supporting cast puts him in great shape for the future but Shaq has a budding superstar in Wade. Playing in the weaker eastern conference means they're always finals contenders.

Where do you stand on the Shaq v. Duncan legacy comparison? Who will prove to be the more accomplished player when all is said and done?

[SWC Bonfire]

Shaq's time in the sun is almost over.

[TwoHandJam]

Shaq's time in the sun is almost over.
Not so sure about that. Watching games six and seven against Detroit, it appeared that Shaq might have knocked off Detroit had Wade not been limited by his rib injury. With Wade having another stellar playoffs, I don't think you can write Shaq and co. off so easily yet.

[Spurs_Fan_Nineteen]

Here's something that speaks volumes about Duncan:


Here's a player who comes to a team, wins a championship, loses those 11 championship teammates over a period of 3 years, gets 11 new teammates, and wins another title. That's the power of Duncan for you.

[SWC Bonfire]

Does he have one or two years left in him? Yes.

But Timmy has been playing BB since the olympics, got hurt, and recovered somewhat. Shaq got hurt late (badly) and did not recover. That is not a dig on Shaq. But his recovery time is going to take longer, and the abuse that his big body has taken adds up over time. I'm not calling the kettle black, I'm 6'6" & 300 lbs and a former rugby player. But I'm 28 and my joints pretty much know when the weather changes, so Shaq has to be in a world of hurt in just a few years.

[1Parker1]

Shaq's time in the sun is almost over.

Exactly. Games 6 and 7 of the ECF was the perfect time for Shaq to show his so called "leadership" skills and dominate the game. I don't care about his thigh contusion injury. Tim Duncan played on 2 sprained ankles, Manu has had about 10 contusions throughout the year. A true champion finds a way to fight through and win no matter what--look at Manu and Tim. He could have put his body on the line and gave it his all--because it was do or die.

Secondly, sure Wade was injured, but if I remember correctly Heat still had about 8-10 other players on their team. When Tim Duncan fouled out of Game 3 I believe against Denver in OT, what did he do? He gathered up his team-mates on the court and coralled them into winning the game. Where was that kind of leadership once Wade went out?

Thirdly, Games 6 and 7 was the perfect time for Shaq to prove that he can get it done without a "All star side-kick." Yet he couldn't....and he never will. For such a "Dominant" player--he sure has needed the help of a "dominant" sidekick throughout his career.

Tim Duncan on the other hand has proven he can get it done with or without a sidekick. Some can argue that he had Manu this year and Robinson earlier on--however, he has shown that he can get the job done without them by winning 3 championships with 3 completely different team-mates.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Shaq won his titles back-to-back-to-back in a flurry of dominance. Duncan's titles haven't been successive but two were accomplished without another all-star.
Please explain how that is correct??? 2003 he had D. Robinson, and 2005 he had Manu.

[SWC Bonfire]

DRob wasn't a 2003 all-star.

Shaq hasn't won it without someone who was 1st team NBA (somebody check me on that).

[TwoHandJam]

Please explain how that is correct??? 2003 he had D. Robinson, and 2005 he had Manu.
I should have been more specific. The 2005 title was his only one with a current all-star. Robinson was not an all-star when Tim won in '99 and '03.

[bigzak25]

this chapter should been have closed in 2003 when TD dominated in game 6.

BUT, now that shaq is working for a new contract (i.e. getting/staying in shape) and has a new home in miami?

I expect a Shaq vs. TD showdown in the 2006 FINALS. Bring it on shaqfoo. :makemyday

[Pistons < Spurs]

I've never been a Shaq fan. Never will. But there is no questioning his presence in this league. While I hate all the "Most Dominant Player" quotes that get thrown about regarding him, It is still hard to argue it.

TD's game is just so complete.....but what he misses is what Shaq has. Shaq has the "I want to be known as the best mofo to ever play the game"...and Duncan doesn't. And that's ok. Thats not who TD is. But IMO, without that attitude, he will prolly never be considered to be better than Oneal.

That being said, TD definetly has lots more time to keep on achieving titles, and MVP's to physically accomplish more than Shaq could ever dream to.

Shaq is on his last run. 2 or 3 more years. TD is pratically in his prime as long as those ankles are ok, and no further injuries occur. I hope TD can do something amazing to surpass the silliness that is Shaq-Love.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Duncan finally put away the "Can he win one without David?" questions. Shaq has yet to answer if he can win one without Kobe. Or Phil Jackson for that matter.

[Man In Black]

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/sports/basketball/11990004.htm

Duncan's resume more impressive than Shaq's

By DAN LE BATARD
Miami Herald

MIAMI - Shaquille O'Neal is the most dominant basketball player of his lifetime. But, sorry, his resume is not as good as Tim Duncan's.

Let's not turn this into an indictment of O'Neal. The problem in the argument culture with making comparisons between apples and oranges is that you have to rip oranges in order to make apples taste better. And I'm not comfortable diminishing the accomplishments of O'Neal, the single most unstoppable force I've ever seen in basketball.

But here's your bottom line: Duncan has won as many championships as O'Neal, and at a younger age. And he's been the league's MVP twice as often.

Kind of hard to argue with that math, isn't it?

Duncan has more of the big trophies in a sport where an individual is more team-impactful on winning than in hockey, baseball or football. Both O'Neal, 33, and Duncan, 29, have been Finals MVP three times, but Duncan has never played with anyone as good as Kobe Bryant.

I'd rather build my team around Shaq, who makes any roster, including Atlanta's, immediately relevant and playoff impactful in a way Duncan does not. But that's not what we're arguing here. We're arguing who has had the more accomplished career to date. And, when Shaq was Duncan's age, he had just won his first championship.

Given that San Antonio's core is locked up through 2010, Duncan might have six championships when he reaches O'Neal's age.

Yes, I'd rather have Shaq. He can do things to Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace that Duncan can't because of his size. He's the world's most efficient shooter because of his strength, so he'll never put up a 5-for-17 stinker like Duncan.

But, again, that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about accomplishments so far, no matter how often rodeo clown Cote tries to distract you by appealing to your local allegiances with rhetorical tricks meant to support South Florida's lovable giant.

Duncan, like Shaq, has done winning with different sidekick teammates - going from David Robinson to Manu Ginobili, neither of whom are exactly Kobe, especially since Robinson was in decline by the time Duncan joined him. And while O'Neal scores more than Duncan, he has never rebounded or defended as well.

Let's remove all the packaging here. The colorful personality. The movies. The outsized fame. Let's show both resumes to an alien new to earth. Let's show that alien that one player has two MVPs and three championships by 29 and the other has one MVP and three championships by 33.

Who is the alien going to view as more accomplished before he blows a blue acidic mist in your melting face and yells at you for wasting his time with this nonsense?

[ShoogarBear]

Here's a player who comes to a team, wins a championship, loses those 11 championship teammates over a period of 3 years, gets 11 new teammates, and wins another title. That's the power of Duncan for you.
Yep.

The only other player who's done that (i.e., won championships while the team completely changed around him) was Bill Russell.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

And another thing, Duncan is going to age wayyyyyy better than Shaq has because Duncan has always committed himself to staying in shape. Duncan's got just as many nagging injuries as Shaq but he's never been slowed down nearly as badly as the Diesel. Why? Because Shaq is a big fat fuck who has always been one sprained toe away from being a 300 pound paperweight. If Shaq had Duncan's ankles he would have missed most of the playoffs, I promise you that.

[SWC Bonfire]

Kobe was 2nd team All-NBA in 2000 & 2001, and 1st team All-NBA in 2002, all title years. Tim Duncan had no other All-NBA players on his team during his championship years.

http://www.nba.com/history/awards_allnba.html

Who needs who?

[2centsworth]

Snaq is still big and fat so barrelling over people and dunking the ball should be no problem for him the next few years.

[Mixability]

As days go by, only one thing is certain.... Shaq is getting older as is his body. Tim too is getting older, but he's hitting his peak, while Shaq has been going downhill since 2002-2003. With or without Wade, with or without Kobe, with or without Karl and Gary, he wasn't able to get his fourth title. All his talk about "everyone" wanting the Suns and Heat in the Finals was hilarious. Too bad it isn't a popularity contest, Mr. Oneal! I'd love to see Tim vs. Shaq next playoffs, but it doesn't look like Shaq will do his part to make it to the Finals. I'm more afraid of seeing the Pistons again next year.

[Spurminator]

He can do things to Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace that Duncan can't because of his size.

Like average 7.5 rebounds per game in a Conference Finals series!

[SWC Bonfire]

Yes, I'd rather have Shaq. He can do things to Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace that Duncan can't because of his size. He's the world's most efficient shooter because of his strength, so he'll never put up a 5-for-17 stinker like Duncan.


Didn't Wallace effectively guard him one-on-one last finals?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Tim's never looked the part like Ben Wallace does, but any of the Spurs opponents could probably tell you exactly how strong Tim is.

[Jdspur20]

I've never been a Shaq fan. Never will. But there is no questioning his presence in this league. While I hate all the "Most Dominant Player" quotes that get thrown about regarding him, It is still hard to argue it.

TD's game is just so complete.....but what he misses is what Shaq has. Shaq has the "I want to be known as the best mofo to ever play the game"...and Duncan doesn't. And that's ok. Thats not who TD is. But IMO, without that attitude, he will prolly never be considered to be better than Oneal.

That being said, TD definetly has lots more time to keep on achieving titles, and MVP's to physically accomplish more than Shaq could ever dream to.

Shaq is on his last run. 2 or 3 more years. TD is pratically in his prime as long as those ankles are ok, and no further injuries occur. I hope TD can do something amazing to surpass the silliness that is Shaq-Love.

and as long as the pistons stay in power, shaq's chances of getting to the finals are pretty slim.

[Mixability]

And another thing, Duncan is going to age wayyyyyy better than Shaq has because Duncan has always committed himself to staying in shape. Duncan's got just as many nagging injuries as Shaq but he's never been slowed down nearly as badly as the Diesel. Why? Because Shaq is a big fat fuck who has always been one sprained toe away from being a 300 pound paperweight. If Shaq had Duncan's ankles he would have missed most of the playoffs, I promise you that.


I wouldn't necessarily say that Timmy is in his top form. I remember seeing a pic of him on some forum that some sneaky photographer snapped... and well..lets say he could use some time in the weight room. But then again he didn't need a lot of muscle to snatch the trophy from Detroit this year!

[tlongII]

At this point in time, Duncan is better than Shaq. I truly believe that. Shaq's abilities have diminished considerably since 2000 when he was in his prime.

[Mixability]

At this point in time, Duncan is better than Shaq. I truly believe that. Shaq's abilities have diminished considerably since 2000 when he was in his prime.

Since 2000? Don't tell me that the 3 peat was all Kobe's work, because we've seen what Kobe can do by himself....

[Spurminator]

Shaq's 2000 season was one of the greatest seasons by any player in the history of the NBA. He was bound to tail off a bit, particularly when his abilities went to his head. That was also the one season he made any semblance of an extra effort on defense.

[peskypesky]

I think it's just about a draw. Tim has never had the sheer physical dominance that Shaq enjoyed, but he did get his 3 rings at a younger age.

[Sense]

Did anyone say attitude would get you greatness?

Last time I checked Rasheed sucked...

Duncan needs no attitude to achieve greatness... infact that's part of his gratness Pistons>Spurs...

[Phenomanul]

[url]

Yes, I'd rather have Shaq. He can do things to Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace that Duncan can't because of his size. He's the world's most efficient shooter because of his strength, so he'll never put up a 5-for-17 stinker like Duncan.



Yeah but that's also because Shaq doesn't have any outside game.

[BigDaddyMatty]

Call me the next time Shaq gives 100% effort on the boards and D. That is when I'll compare him to Timmy.

[samikeyp]

I expect a Shaq vs. TD showdown in the 2006 FINALS. Bring it on shaqfoo

assuming they can get past the Pistons.

[GrandeDavid]

I still like to duck this question at times, going the old "they don't play the same positions" route. But it is inevitable that two dominant big men must be compared. They both have three rings, so scoreboard is even on championshipability. Tim will end up ahead in that department, excluding injuries, no doubt whatseover. Statistically Shaq is an obvious monster, so he definitely gets the edge there.

[adidas11]

This past season, I actually gained more respect for Shaq's leadership, than from any other year in his career. Yes, he is on the decline, as he is 33 years old. But at the same age as Duncan is right now, Shaq was absolutely destroying the league. Statistically, Duncan will never match what Shaq was able to accomplish at age 28 to 31.

The one difference between Shaq and Duncan? I think another poster mentioned it in this thread. Shaq has the "give me the f'n ball" attitude, and more importantly, Shaq has unbelievable confidence (sometimes you could say that it's overconfidence!). Seeing Duncan in this series against the Pistons, there were games where Duncan was visibly shaken by what Detroit had done to him. They get physical with him, and Duncan retreated into a shell. Hell, Duncan had trouble dealing with BEN WALLACE, a player that Shaq basically abused in the ECF, and even called him out in the press challenging him. And Shaq instilled confidence in a Miami team, that was practically bared to bones. Who instilled confidence in the Spurs? It wasn't really Duncan, but more Manu who did that for this team this season.

If at any point in his career, Duncan were to average 29.7 and 13, everyone on this message board would be going nuts, and comparing him to Jordan. And he hasn't (and probably will not). But lo and behold, Shaq HAS done that, on several occassions.

If I had to pick between one of the two RIGHT NOW, I would go with Duncan, but soley because of age.

[Dre_7]

Shaq's 2000 season was one of the greatest seasons by any player in the history of the NBA. He was bound to tail off a bit, particularly when his abilities went to his head. That was also the one season he made any semblance of an extra effort on defense.

Yeah, its sux that Duncan was hurt that year in the Playoffs. It woulda been a heck of a battle to see SA vs. LAL in 2000.

[mookie2001]

shaq had an insane rookie year
his avg in blocks and boards were really really good
he never got that high in either category again
anyway shaq will always be considered better to most people
thats why duncan has to win 2 more titles

[Dre_7]

shaq had an insane rookie year
his avg in blocks and boards were really really good
he never got that high in either category again
anyway shaq will always be considered better to most people
thats why duncan has to win 2 more titles

I could care less about "most people."

Most people dont know about basketball. Most people dont understand how beautiful good team defense is. Most people only wanna be entertained. They wanna see the loud mouth guy thats gonna get them excited. I could care less. Tim is better then Shaq. I will always believe that.

[adidas11]

The stats and the titles don't lie, Dre.

[Vashner]

lol remember that time Shaq busted up the Rim in the Alamodome and they had to delay the game like 15-20 mins to put a whole new machine in ?

[mookie2001]

tim is better than shaq
but thats why "most people" will make up for that by saying shaq is the "most dominant"
even though you cant really measure dominance by anything but titles

[mookie2001]

titles are the same
stats dont mean shit when youre comparing two players that are the best on their team and with LA you might even say kobe was equal
shaq lost 2 finals
does that make him better?

[Dre_7]

The stats and the titles don't lie, Dre.

Youre right!

Tim - 3 Rings, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 MVPs, age 29
Shaq - 3 Rings, 3 Finals MVPs, 1 MVP, age 33

Tim is better then Shaq.

[adidas11]

That's 3 straight rings, and 3 straight Finals MVPs, Dre. A HUGE distinction. Only one other player in NBA history accomplished that.

[mookie2001]

ok well tim has done it with 3 totally different teams


maybe chris mihm can break that record

[Dre_7]

More Stats:

Tim's career numbers: 22.5ppg, 12.20rpg, 2.50bpg .507fg%, .692ft% (and for all you "choke" talkers, his career ft% in the playoffs is .702 not great, but up from his reg season numbers)

Shaq's career numbers: 26.7ppg, 12.00rpg, 2.50bpg, .579fg%, .531ft% (btw, his ft % in the playoffs is .515 less then his reg season numbers)

So basically, lookin at stats, and titles, Tim has done just as much as Shaq, in less time. Tim got 3 rings and 3 finals MVP's by age 29. Shaq had only 1 ring and 1 finals MVP by age 29.

Lets come back to this argument in 5 years and still see who thinks Shaq is better then Timmy.

[Dre_7]

That's 3 straight rings, and 3 straight Finals MVPs, Dre. A HUGE distinction. Only one other player in NBA history accomplished that.

Again, Tim was hurt for one of those years, David Robinson for another. Not an excuse, just something to think about. And if Shaq never does it again and Timmy does, Timmy will be better because of his longevity!

Anyone tell me how many years Shaq and Tim have been all-NBA and all-stars? I bet Tim has more then Shaq in those catagories too.

[mookie2001]

tim has more 1st teams
shaq more allstars

[Dre_7]

tim has more 1st teams
shaq more allstars

How many All-stars do each have?

[DDS4]

I really think you can't compare the two until their careers are over. Shaq's accomplishments are slightly ahead of Duncan's for now for simple fact that defending your championship 2 times over 3 years is pretty impressive. But no matter how you slice it, Duncan just needs one more than Shaq to be better.

As far as Shaq goes, I really think Miami has to save his minutes during the regular season for him to have a chance to be somewhat like his old dominant self.

[mookie2001]

shaq gets cred for losing two finals too
which is bullshit

[TwoHandJam]

This past season, I actually gained more respect for Shaq's leadership, than from any other year in his career. Yes, he is on the decline, as he is 33 years old. But at the same age as Duncan is right now, Shaq was absolutely destroying the league. Statistically, Duncan will never match what Shaq was able to accomplish at age 28 to 31.

The one difference between Shaq and Duncan? I think another poster mentioned it in this thread. Shaq has the "give me the f'n ball" attitude, and more importantly, Shaq has unbelievable confidence (sometimes you could say that it's overconfidence!). Seeing Duncan in this series against the Pistons, there were games where Duncan was visibly shaken by what Detroit had done to him. They get physical with him, and Duncan retreated into a shell. Hell, Duncan had trouble dealing with BEN WALLACE, a player that Shaq basically abused in the ECF, and even called him out in the press challenging him. And Shaq instilled confidence in a Miami team, that was practically bared to bones. Who instilled confidence in the Spurs? It wasn't really Duncan, but more Manu who did that for this team this season.

If at any point in his career, Duncan were to average 29.7 and 13, everyone on this message board would be going nuts, and comparing him to Jordan. And he hasn't (and probably will not). But lo and behold, Shaq HAS done that, on several occassions.

If I had to pick between one of the two RIGHT NOW, I would go with Duncan, but soley because of age.

You make all the right points but I believe you come to the wrong conclusions. If ppg and fg% are the stats you place the most weight on, then no one will argue with you that Shaq is the winner in those categories. You can also say that during his title runs, he was the most dominant force in the game. However, if you look at the most important stat - the ability to win and elevate the game of the players around you, then I think Tim wins hands down.

Looking at the facts, Tim currently has more individual achievements than Shaq at a younger age. He also has been able to will less talented teammates to a title having never won a title with a current all-star save for this season. Tim has won a title with 3 very different teams and that speaks volumes about his versatility.

Shaq, given his strength and athleticism should have achieved more than Tim at his age but imo, he just hasn't made the most of his abilities. Anyone with his size and strength should have at least have won a rebounding title once in his career but the effort just isn't there. That is evident from the numerous times he's reported to training camp horribly out of shape.

One problem with the way legacies are viewed in the NBA is that people remember stars who burn bright for short periods of time more than stars who are consistent for longer periods. Names like Barkley and Walton are still mentioned amongst other greats solely because of their fleeting but exceptional achivements.

In the end, the object of the game is to win and I believe legacies should be judged not on how dominant statistically a player was for a few years, but how instrumental they were in winning championships for their team over their entire careers. In this respect I have no doubt that Tim should far surpass Shaq barring any unforseen injuries.

[Vashner]

Tim's better because he is a Spur and didn't make Shaq Steel the movie...

[adidas11]

Excellent post TwoHandJam, but I will disagree with you on one quote:

"However, if you look at the most important stat - the ability to win and elevate the game of the players around you, then I think Tim wins hands down."

Seeing what Shaq did this year in Miami, at least in my opinion, says otherwise. And when push came to shove, Shaq actually played better in that series against the Pistons, while Tim wiltered against the Pistons.

But like I said, an excellent post nonetheless.

[Nikos]

I think another thing people credit Shaq for is that he played in an era with greater centers. Hakeem, Drob, Zo, Hakeem, Ewing.

The argument is always that Duncan didn't face those guys and Shaq did. But Shaq simply wasn't as solid back then as he was when he was winning titles with Kobe. Or maybe he was, but had less talent?

But when I think about it, even guys like Ewing, Drob, Hakeem lost in the playoffs to teams that didn't have a dominant Center or Big man. So why should that 'lack of center argument' always resurface?

[AI-square]

Shaq is the most dominant player in this generation. That is the truth. And no one can take away the fact that he won 3 Finals MVP and 3 NBA titles.

Duncan, meanwhile, has done just as much in less time. And he never had Kobe Bryant on his team.

The career stats are almost equal but I think the most relevant issue is what those two players bring to their teams. Shaq, for all his dominance, is a liability in crunch time due to his FT%. Think of the NBA Finals that Shaq was in. How many times did he get the ball in the last couple of minutes? And we all saw what Duncan did in Game 7 when the Spurs really needed him to kick into another gear.

It's tough to compare the two, but who do you think would have done better in each other's teams? What if Duncan was in the Laker teams in 2000 and 2002, with Robert Horry, Kobe Bryant, Ron Harper, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Glen Rice, Horace Grant? And Shaq with Parker, Bowen, Kerr, Ginobili, Horry, Rose?

[TwoHandJam]

Excellent post TwoHandJam, but I will disagree with you on one quote:

"However, if you look at the most important stat - the ability to win and elevate the game of the players around you, then I think Tim wins hands down."

Seeing what Shaq did this year in Miami, at least in my opinion, says otherwise. And when push came to shove, Shaq actually played better in that series against the Pistons, while Tim wiltered against the Pistons.

But like I said, an excellent post nonetheless.Thanks for the props adidas but if you're placing so much weight in your opinion on what Shaq did with Miami this year then you might want to rethink that.

Miami in '04, without Shaq lost 4-2 in the conference semifinals to a very tough Indiana team. They were already an established playoff team in the east before Shaq's arrival. All Shaq did was take that team, with a more experienced Wade, to the conference finals.

Considering Shaq benefitted from playing in the weak east where there is a dearth of centers, I don't find that such a great accomplishment. At least not one that would greatly change my opinion of Shaq's achievements, as you claim.

Sorry but I just don't see it.

[DesiSpur_21]

Shaq was unbeatable only in 2001 - that's when he was THE man. in 2000 and 2002, Lakers were still weary and the result could've gone against them - He needed kobe and other sidekicks in those seasons.

But 1999,2003,2005 Duncan has grown each time and his contributions are significant - Of course, needed side-kicks but also he is lucky to not to have to deal with a 'nut' sidekick.

[charmie21]

Timmy is better. PERIOD.

[strangeweather]

That's 3 straight rings, and 3 straight Finals MVPs, Dre. A HUGE distinction. Only one other player in NBA history accomplished that.

Winning 3 straight as your team's MVP is a huge accomplishment, no doubt about it.

But the two other players who accomplished that amazing feat (if there had been a finals MVP trophy in Russell's day, he'd have a shelf full of them) also won a bunch of other titles as well. The Showtime Lakers didn't win 3 years in a row, but they won more titles. Duncan's Spurs look set to contend for more titles, and seem to have plenty of time.

What does it say about Shaq that he could only put it together to win titles for those 3 years, with just the right pieces around him?

[ambchang]

Seeing what Shaq did this year in Miami, at least in my opinion, says otherwise. And when push came to shove, Shaq actually played better in that series against the Pistons, while Tim wiltered against the Pistons.

But like I said, an excellent post nonetheless.

Fact that Pistons single covered Shaq with Big Ben, while doubled, or even tripled Duncan on a consistent basis in this years playoffs speaks volume.

[baseline bum]

Duncan never has had or ever will have a year approaching Shaq's 2000 season.... but Shaq's refusal to ever step out on the pick and roll has to knock him down some. I mean everyone has their faults, but that was just ridiculous. It was like a guaranteed basket everytime down the floor.

I think it's a very tough call. Offensively Shaq win in a landslide. He's as good as Duncan at passing out of the double team, he's way better in the post, he sets better screens (for the life of me I can't understand why LA ran so few pick and rolls... I remember how badly they devoured the Spurs in game 3 in 2003 with Shaq setting screens) but obviously can't pop the jumper the way Tim can off of them. Shaq definitely doesn't compare to Duncan in transition (no bigman in NBA history does IMO... I've never seen any PF/C lead the break and do it as well as consistently as Duncan does), but in the halfcourt he's clearly superior.

Defensively Duncan is way better. Duncan isn't Ben Wallace on the pick and roll, but he's quick enough to deny the open shot. He's far superior on the boards, and has developed into a far superior shot blocker. He also commits way fewer fouls than O'Neal and gets back in transition better.

[TheTruth]

I hate the fact that shaq spent all those years averaging like 10 boards a game, when he should have been cleaning up to the tune of at least 14-16 per. His laziness on the defensive end was his ONLY weakness. (other than the free throw thing)(and his mouth)(and his weight)(and the injuries)(and all the offensive fouls he got away with)(and his mouth)

[ambchang]

Shaq, imo, is way overrated. Yes, he had the potential to be the greatest of all time, but he wasn't. How can the most dominant big man lead the league in ppg once in his career? No rebounding titles, no blocked shot titles? He devoured some teams in the playoffs, but it was strictly due to matchups. Shaq has always struggled vs. the Spurs (ppg way down), and made his name playing teams like the Pacers, 6ers and Nets in the finals.
People tend to forget the fact that when Shaq was at his prime along with Hakeem and Robinson, he was clearly a notch below the two, it wasn't till Hakeem and Robinson both got old that Shaq had his share. And Shaq has always have a very good sidekick. Sure you can make the argument that he makes his teammates better, but the year after Shaq left, Penny Hardaway was still dominating the league until he suffered injury after injury to his knees. Kobe did fine last year, and Wade was on the verge of stardom in last year's playoffs anyways.
Duncan, on the other hand, carried his team time and time again, and lead them to 3 championships (same as Shaq) with no significant offensive help in two of them. Shaq was magnificent in 2000 and 01, but that was it, he had a higher peak, but the peak was very short due to his reluctance to take care of his own body. Duncan, on the other hand, had been consistently excellent throughout his career, and is more like a plateau.

[Spursdaone]

Shaq, imo, is way overrated. Yes, he had the potential to be the greatest of all time, but he wasn't. How can the most dominant big man lead the league in ppg once in his career? No rebounding titles, no blocked shot titles? He devoured some teams in the playoffs, but it was strictly due to matchups. Shaq has always struggled vs. the Spurs (ppg way down), and made his name playing teams like the Pacers, 6ers and Nets in the finals.
People tend to forget the fact that when Shaq was at his prime along with Hakeem and Robinson, he was clearly a notch below the two, it wasn't till Hakeem and Robinson both got old that Shaq had his share. And Shaq has always have a very good sidekick. Sure you can make the argument that he makes his teammates better, but the year after Shaq left, Penny Hardaway was still dominating the league until he suffered injury after injury to his knees. Kobe did fine last year, and Wade was on the verge of stardom in last year's playoffs anyways.
Duncan, on the other hand, carried his team time and time again, and lead them to 3 championships (same as Shaq) with no significant offensive help in two of them. Shaq was magnificent in 2000 and 01, but that was it, he had a higher peak, but the peak was very short due to his reluctance to take care of his own body. Duncan, on the other hand, had been consistently excellent throughout his career, and is more like a plateau.
I would love to say that Shaq is overrated but the truth is he is the most dominating big man off all time.

[Duncan05]

Here's something that speaks volumes about Duncan:


Here's a player who comes to a team, wins a championship, loses those 11 championship teammates over a period of 3 years, gets 11 new teammates, and wins another title. That's the power of Duncan for you.


thats right, Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA. He is so smart and bring good leadership. Shaq is just using his body weight, and he is getting slower which makes duncan the more complete player.

[Duncan05]

Duncan is the best

[ambchang]

I would love to say that Shaq is overrated but the truth is he is the most dominating big man off all time.

Sigh, pick and choose your battle. As a troll, you have to know when to let a topic go, and when to step on it. Continuously stating stupid statements is not trolling, it's just being stupid.
Man, you are the troll who never learns.

[Spursdaone]

Sigh, pick and choose your battle. As a troll, you have to know when to let a topic go, and when to step on it. Continuously stating stupid statements is not trolling, it's just being stupid.
Man, you are the troll who never learns.
What is so shocking about that? No one can stop him and he overpowers everyone. I personally hate Shaq but I fear him even now but in his prime he won the championship almost by himself with a very young Kobe who took terrible shots at times.

[ambchang]

What is so shocking about that? No one can stop him and he overpowers everyone. I personally hate Shaq but I fear him even now but in his prime he won the championship almost by himself with a very young Kobe who took terrible shots at times.

Man, do I have to call you bullshit AGAIN? Do some research before you spew your crap man.
The 3 championships seasons, Kobe put up the following numbers:
(Season:pts/fg%/accomplishments)
99-00: 22.8/46.8/ All NBA 2nd team, all defensive 1st team
00-01: 28.5/46.4/ All NBA 2nd team.
01-02: 25.2/46.9/ All NBA 1st team, defensive 2nd team

The guy that nobody can stop never averaged more than 30ppg for an entire season.
And should I trust you on your hate Shaq claim, given that you have continuously lie about your secret man-love for Garnett?

[Spursdaone]

I thought stats didn't mean anything. The proof is when Shaq left LAL and how well Miami is with Shaq. It alters the whole defense when Shaq is gone. He is the greatest Center of all time and you should know that. Olajuwon was probably the second and Wilt had no 3 second lane violation to worry about when he dominated. Shaq brought 3 championships and 2 finals to his team. Duncan doesn't alter the game as much.

[strangeweather]

I would love to say that Shaq is overrated but the truth is he is the most dominating big man off all time.

If he's the most dominating big man of all time, why did it take him until Olajuwon and Robinson were over the hill to win a title? I seem to remember Shaq getting, well, dominated at times by both of them.

[ambchang]

I thought stats didn't mean anything. The proof is when Shaq left LAL and how well Miami is with Shaq. It alters the whole defense when Shaq is gone. He is the greatest Center of all time and you should know that. Olajuwon was probably the second and Wilt had no 3 second lane violation to worry about when he dominated. Shaq brought 3 championships and 2 finals to his team. Duncan doesn't alter the game as much.

When did I said stats didn't meant something? It was YOU who said stats didn't mean anything in the Stockton argument. But then, of course, you later go on about how you look at stats to say Garnett is better than Duncan. Of course, stats doesn't mean everything, that's why I put in those all-nba teams and all-defensive teams accolades.
Wow, Shaq moved a team who went from a 2nd round team to a 3rd round team! Whoopie damn do! Such dominating force!
Duncan brought 3 championships to his team in less time, and never got swept out in anyone of them, unlike Shaq. And what exactly has Shaq altered in his time, any specific rule changes for him?
Wilt had no 3 second lane? Son, learn your history, you are embarrassing yourself. The 3 second lane was added in the days of George Mikan, who (in case you don't know) preceded Wilt. Wilt was so dominant, he required the NBA to widen the lane.
What about Russell and Jabbar? Any mention on those great players?
And just admit it, Shaq is the most dominating because he's the only one you ever saw.

[Spursdaone]

I don't remember the past but athletes have improved as time went on. I don't think that same Chamberlin guy could pull off those stats now that he did back then. There are stronger and faster players these days than there were back then. You love Shaq or you hate him but all the attention he brought to other team was shear dominance when he was at his prime. We wouldn't be talking about him so much if he wasn't so dominant.

[mookie2001]

tim is better than shaq
but thats why "most people" will make up for that by saying shaq is the "most dominant"
even though you cant really measure dominance by anything but titles

[Mr. Body]

How will this debate go later in the decade, when we're talking about Duncan's legacy the way we're talking about Shaq's right now?

Contingent. The way the Spurs are constructed, with their front office and coaching staff, and assuming Duncan remains healthy... in the next 4-5 years San Antonio should be expected to be right there for the championship, with perhaps the next two the prime years (with possibles like Stoudamire and LeBron stepping into their early primes). An optimistic guess would be they win another two championships. Not the most optimistic guess, but a decent one.

I could see Shaq facing Duncan in the finals next year, but after that I don't see much chance for O'Neal to play in the Finals ever again. Under this projection, Duncan retires with 5 rings, Shaq with 3.

That's basically it. End of conversation. ESPN lovers will always say "Shaquille O'Neal was the most dominant big man of his generation, etc., but for a short period of time." That kind of thought will be easily silenced.

[Spursdaone]

You gotta give Poppovich some credit for constructing this team to fit with Duncan perfectly. He is a great coach and could you imagine San Antonio's defense combined with Shaq on offense. That would be scary.

[Warlord23]

You gotta give Poppovich some credit for constructing this team to fit with Duncan perfectly. He is a great coach and could you imagine San Antonio's defense combined with Shaq on offense. That would be scary.

The problem with that is that defense and O'Neal in the same sentence happen only on paper. Shaq's defense is limited to blocking some shots and occupying a truckload of space, which in itself is not bad considering the quality of centers in the NBA. Duncan methodically ripped apart Shaq's defense in the 2003 playoffs.

Tim, on the other hand, is a better rebounder, changes/blocks shots more frequently, and rotates better on defense. While Shaq, despite his size, has always been considered a notch below Mutombo, Robinson, Mourning, Ratliff in defense, Tim is one of the frontrunners in post-defense.

[ambchang]

I don't remember the past but athletes have improved as time went on. I don't think that same Chamberlin guy could pull off those stats now that he did back then. There are stronger and faster players these days than there were back then. You love Shaq or you hate him but all the attention he brought to other team was shear dominance when he was at his prime. We wouldn't be talking about him so much if he wasn't so dominant.

No no, don't change the subject, talk more about Chamberlain and the 3 second lane.
Sure, atheletes are known to be faster today, but with the same level of nutruition and training, what is to say Chamberlain won't improve just as much? Besides, you want to talk about competition? How would you like Russell, Jabbar, Nate Thurmond and Wes Unseld vs. Yao Ming, Rik Smits, and Brad Miller? You want to talk about Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and Alonzo Mourning? Then you have to talk about how Shaq was, at best, 3rd in that group.
Fact is, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg over his career, Shaq couldn't even do it ONCE over a season. Chamberlain averaged 50.4 ppg over a season, once grabbed 55 rebounds and averaged 27.4, once led the league in assists. THey didn't keep track of blocked shots at the time, so he wasn't credited in this field.
Don't get me wrong, Shaq is an amazing basketball player with very good footwork and a dominant offensive game, but to call him the most dominant ever is to show ones ignorance in the game of basketball.

[ambchang]

You gotta give Poppovich some credit for constructing this team to fit with Duncan perfectly. He is a great coach and could you imagine San Antonio's defense combined with Shaq on offense. That would be scary.
Again flaunting your ignorance. Tim Duncan IS the anchor of the Spurs defense. These are not interchangable parts, and you can't just sub one guy in the rotation and expect the rest of the parts to work the way they did before.

[Spursdaone]

Since I've only been watching basketball for 15 years I would say Shaq is the most dominating player I've seen but don't know anything before that. He has shot a remarkable shooting percentage that could make a bad shooting team into a good shooting team because 55-60% + 40% from a guard with him taking more shots is over 50%. Duncan shoots 5-10% less and that is a big difference. I'll give it that Duncan is better defensively but I would give it to a person who shoots that high any day.

[NCaliSpurs]

And when push came to shove, Shaq actually played better in that series against the Pistons, while Tim wiltered against the Pistons.



If by "wiltered" you meant lead your team to a game 7 victory over said Pistons, then you are right.

[Spursdaone]

The difference between Duncan and Shaq is you can slow down Duncan with Sheed or Malone but there is no one who can slow down the big Diesel who owns all. Today I think Duncan is better but 3 years no way would I pick Duncan.

[ChumpDumper]

And when push came to shove, Shaq actually played better in that series against the PistonsLetting Ben Wallace go for 18pts and 22reb in an elimination game is playing better?

[ambchang]

Since I've only been watching basketball for 15 years I would say Shaq is the most dominating player I've seen but don't know anything before that. He has shot a remarkable shooting percentage that could make a bad shooting team into a good shooting team because 55-60% + 40% from a guard with him taking more shots is over 50%. Duncan shoots 5-10% less and that is a big difference. I'll give it that Duncan is better defensively but I would give it to a person who shoots that high any day.

So how did you come up with Shaq #1 over Wilt again? Something about the 3 second lane?
So now you are talking about FG% being the newest gauge of a dominant player? Ever heard of James Donaldson?
We should start talking about defense somewhere, but I am sure you are not familiar with it.

[ambchang]

The difference between Duncan and Shaq is you can slow down Duncan with Sheed or Malone but there is no one who can slow down the big Diesel who owns all. Today I think Duncan is better but 3 years no way would I pick Duncan.

Really? How did David Robinson, bad back and all, guarded Shaq 1 on 1, slow him down to 22 ppg in the playoffs again?

[ceds]

My 2 cents...

Shaq was considered the best player in the league with KG and TD tied at 2nd.

Then in 2003 TD got the better of Shaq and led his team to a ring as the sole superstar. At this point he clearly jumps ahead of KG and people begin the "Is he better then Shaq talk".

04 was the most important season in finding out who the best player is and heres why:

KG had a MVP season
TD had a healthy spurs team going for a repeat
Shaq was now doubted by some as the best player in the game

In the end Shaq put a beat down on TD and KG and proved that he is still the best player in the game when he wants to be

[NCaliSpurs]

Except that he lost to the Pistons two years in a row. The team the Spurs just beat.


FYI, Malone put the beat down on Shaq, because as a role player he didn't have to worry about fouling out.

[ChumpDumper]

In the endIsn't now the end? Who's on top now? Who lost to Detroit? Whose team was in the lottery?

[ceds]

Isn't now the end? Who's on top now? Who lost to Detroit? Whose team was in the lottery?

point taken, a 29 year old TD is better then a 34 yr old Shaq. (But not a 33 yr old shaq)

Shaq at 29 was just a monster

[ambchang]

My 2 cents...

Shaq was considered the best player in the league with KG and TD tied at 2nd.

Then in 2003 TD got the better of Shaq and led his team to a ring as the sole superstar. At this point he clearly jumps ahead of KG and people begin the "Is he better then Shaq talk".

04 was the most important season in finding out who the best player is and heres why:

KG had a MVP season
TD had a healthy spurs team going for a repeat
Shaq was now doubted by some as the best player in the game

In the end Shaq put a beat down on TD and KG and proved that he is still the best player in the game when he wants to be

Agreed, Shaq with Malone, Kobe and Payton is 0.4 seconds better than Duncan with 22 yo Parker and wild Ginobili

[Spursdaone]

Really? How did David Robinson, bad back and all, guarded Shaq 1 on 1, slow him down to 22 ppg in the playoffs again?
I believe that was the year where Shaq had surgery right before the season and missed alot of games. He was in the worst shape of his career that year. The lakers owned the spurs when Shaq was in decent shape.

[ambchang]

I believe that was the year where Shaq had surgery right before the season and missed alot of games. He was in the worst shape of his career that year. The lakers owned the spurs when Shaq was in decent shape.
Both 02 and 03? And how do you explain him scoring 35 vs. the Nets in the next series?
BTW, Shaq missed around 20 games, hardly "a lot" given that it was at the beginning of the season, and he is ALWAYS out of shape.

[Spursdaone]

Both 02 and 03? And how do you explain him scoring 35 vs. the Nets in the next series?
BTW, Shaq missed around 20 games, hardly "a lot" given that it was at the beginning of the season, and he is ALWAYS out of shape.
He was in better shape in 2001-2002. That is why he played well against the nets. The next year is when he missed training camp and 20 games which gave him less time to get in shape. He never looks in shape but that year he was way out of line with his weight. Shaq owns San Antonio when in decent shape.

[Spursdaone]

Shaq was better and most his career he was on a sorry Magic team with Penny Hardaway turned to shit once Shaq left him. Shaq makes everybody better. Kobe is not the same without Shaq either and all of a sudden Wade is a superstar. This is not a coincidence but the effects to having Shaq on your team.

[atlfan25]

i suppose injuries had no affect on why penny turned to shit right?

[Spursdaone]

i suppose injuries had no affect on why penny turned to shit right?
That was one reason and the other reason is not having Shaq. Those 2 together equal failure.

[ambchang]

He was in better shape in 2001-2002. That is why he played well against the nets. The next year is when he missed training camp and 20 games which gave him less time to get in shape. He never looks in shape but that year he was way out of line with his weight. Shaq owns San Antonio when in decent shape.
Dude, dug yourself in the whole AGAIN!
Shaq averaged 22 in the 02 playoffs, and about 25 or so in the 03 playoffs, the one he got abused by Duncan.

[Spursdaone]

Dude, dug yourself in the whole AGAIN!
Shaq averaged 22 in the 02 playoffs, and about 25 or so in the 03 playoffs, the one he got abused by Duncan.
You are wrong. Shaq averaged 28.5 PPG in O2 Playoffs and 27.0 PPG in the 03 playoffs :lol

[ambchang]

You are wrong. Shaq averaged 28.5 PPG in O2 Playoffs and 27.0 PPG in the 03 playoffs :lol
Buddy, owned again, we are talking about Shaq vs. Spurs, where Shaq was slowed down by a hobbled Robinson, something you said nobody can do.
2002: 23 pts, 19 pts, 22 pts, 22 pts, 21 pts = 21.4ppg
2003: 24pts, 27 pts, 21 pts, 29 pts, 20 pts, 31pts = 25.3 ppg
Now tell me how Shaq can't be slowed down again?

[Spursdaone]

I guess Shaq didn't play enough games to get a higher point average in 2002. :lol

[ambchang]

I guess Shaq didn't play enough games to get a higher point average in 2002. :lol
Don't talk about something else, talk about how Shaq cannot be slowed down, and therefore was the most dominating force the league have ever seen. Talk about Wilt and the 3 second, talk about Malone and his "weak" supporting cast, talk about Garnett and his overrated all star teammates.

[Spursdaone]

Don't talk about something else, talk about how Shaq cannot be slowed down, and therefore was the most dominating force the league have ever seen. Talk about Wilt and the 3 second, talk about Malone and his "weak" supporting cast, talk about Garnett and his overrated all star teammates.
It sounds like San Antonio tried too hard to stop Shaq and let everyone else get off. That is a big mistake by Pop but if they didn't do that Shaq would get 30+ just like all the other opponents. I wouldn't call that being shut down either. I don't know about anything past 15 years back so I will stay away from the Wilt topic. Malone doesn't have weak teammates but they aren't quite as good as Duncan's. Garnett's teammates are not or should not be allstars. Sprewell is a chucker and lost most of his athleticism that he had in New York. Wally plays no defense and is not a good passer. Hassell is a good defender but not quite as good as Bowen. Cassell for 1 year deserved to be an allstar and because of that they got to the western conference finals until Cassell got injured and that was the season against the Lakers.

[ambchang]

It sounds like San Antonio tried too hard to stop Shaq and let everyone else get off. That is a big mistake by Pop but if they didn't do that Shaq would get 30+ just like all the other opponents. I wouldn't call that being shut down either.

Oh yeah, your imagination, things that didn't happen in the real world, but could have happened. See, Duncan would have went off for 35 ppg if people put their defense on Nazr Mohammed too.
And you are suggesting David Robinson NOT guard Shaq, leave him all alone under the basket, and he would only get 30? That sure does suck. I mean, Robinson was guarding Shaq 1-on-1, how was that guarding him too hard?


I don't know about anything past 15 years back so I will stay away from the Wilt topic.

No no no, you said Shaq is the most dominating force in the history of the NBA, if you don't know anything past 15 years, how can you rate him there? And what was that 3 second thing again? Please recite it for me, my memory is a little hazzy, something about Wilt never have the 3 second rule on him or something?


Malone doesn't have weak teammates but they aren't quite as good as Duncan's. Garnett's teammates are not or should not be allstars.

Going in circles as well. Got you,
John Stockton, Mark Eaton, Jeff Hornecek and Jeff Malone in their primes are worse than an old David Robinson, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili


Sprewell is a chucker and lost most of his athleticism that he had in New York. Wally plays no defense and is not a good passer. Hassell is a good defender but not quite as good as Bowen. Cassell for 1 year deserved to be an allstar and because of that they got to the western conference finals until Cassell got injured and that was the season against the Lakers.

Please refer to:
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=371343&postcount=157